allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good. amazing. jerry, you gotta to see this. seen it. trust me, after 15 walks... gets a little old. ugh ♪♪ hi there, everyone. happy monday. it's health care in new york on martin luther king jr. day with observances all across this country intended to honor mlk's legacy and to take stock of the effort to create a democracy inclusive of people of all races and all creeds, an effort that is more important than ever perhaps this year in light of a rising tide of authoritarianism

on the right of american politics and a wave of by residence is targeting minorities in america. a march today led by king's family to rally support for federal voting rights legislation that would shore up the right to vote which is under assault in states all across this country by a republican party in the grips of the disgraced expresident who incited a deadly insurrection. and he was fuelling baseless election fraud conspiracies. a new analysis in the "washington post" lays out a direct link between the lie about a stolen election and racial resentment today and the battles during civil rights during king's time. quote, although a majority of americans recognize that white people enjoy racial advantages and are angry about racism in the u.s. a substantial fraction disagreeings, people who deny white racial advantages and the prevalence of racial inequities also doubt the results of the

2020 pregz election. -- and absolve former president donald trump of blame for the riot. these patterns suggest that the desire to maintain white advantages, the impulse that king identified as largely responsible for the nation's democratic failures continues to threaten the well-being of u.s. democracy. this threat to democracy is compounded by hate here and abroad that leaves americans of all stripes facing the specter of violence n. new york city on saturday an asian american woman was killed after a man with a history of mental illness pushed her in front of an oncoming train. the victim's identity raising fresh fear among asian americans amid a massive spike in attacks against the asian american community during the covid-19 pandemic. and on sunday, a on act of terror targeting the jewish community. an 11-hour hostage standoff in a synagogue in colleyville, texas, that ended with the hostages

freed and the attacker dead. the attacker was an armed british citizen. the "washington post" reports this -- during the standoff, he repeatedly referenced siddiqui, an american-educated pakistani woman largely loan as lady al qaeda. she was convicted on terrorism charges in 2010. people who heard him on the live stream of services which carried part of the ordeal said aprogram chose this place because it appeared to be the closest gathering of jus to a federal facility in forth where is a defect 'is being held on an 86-year sentence for trying to kill u.s. soldiers. the rabbi of the beth israel congregation spoke to cbs news about his terrifying ordeal. watch that. >> the last hour or so of the standoff, he wasn't getting what he wanted. he was getting -- it didn't look good. it didn't sound good. we were very -- we were

terrified. and when i saw an opportunity where he wasn't in a good position, i asked -- made sure that the two jen who were still with me, that they were -- that they were ready to go. the exit wasn't too far away. i told them to go. i threw a chair at the gunman, and i headed for the door. and all three us were able to get out without even a shot being fired. >> the raabi also cited the training he has received from the fbi and the anti-defamation league as crucial to his survival and the survival of his congregate. training made necessary by the horrific wave of hate crimes and terror incidents targeting the jewish community here. from the post, for american jews -- for american jews, the beth israel attack was less a

watershed event than one more wearying numbing reminder that they are targets. not long ago, jews could walk into synagogues without thinking about security. but after a torrent of threats and attacks, and especially after the 2018 massacre at pittsburgh's tree of life synagogue where a gunman opened fire, killing 11 jews, houses of worship became forbidding gaunt lentsz of protective measures, armed guards, security checks, questioning. americans hate and anti-semitism is where we start this hour. the reverend al sharpton is here. also joining us, former senator claire microsoft casse kill. and jonathan greenblatt joins us. ceo and national director of the anti-defamation league as well as author of the new book "it could happen here". our conversation about your new book haunted me as i watched your tweets as this was

happening. and barry weiss's streams on social media really i think brought all of us into the horror of what happened. luckily, it did not end in tragedy for the rabbi. but that's not -- still not good news story in america in 2022. tell me what you are thinking today. >> yeah. i mean, there are many thoughts. first of all, of course, i feel really relieved and grateful that the fbi and law enforcement were able to rescue the four hostaging without any loss of life. i think we can't underscore the importance of the fbi and the people on the grounds. i am blessed that adl and organizations were able to help the rabbi at this synagogue and many others learn the actions you need to take. the clergy need to be versed in torah, and also in tactics of how you deal with terror threats on site, witness their locate. it is not limited to rabbis.

2014, the shooting at the jcc in overland park, kansas. three people killed. 2019, the shooting at the kosher supermarket in jersey city. three people killed. i could go on with a number of examples. the shooting in 2006, seattle jewish federation. one person killed. so again and again and again we find our sacred spaces under siege. i must say i am angry. i am angry we seem not to have learned the lessons. extremist rhetoric needs to be taken seriously. when people make accusations that jews are responsible for the world's evils, when people make accusations that polite joinist are their enemies, when people make crazy claims we need to listen and take them seriously and people on both sides of the political aisle need the call it out. whether your animus is against

the jewish people or the jewish state calm down, use facts. you know, really, people are at risk. >> i want to show you something that the rabbi from the tree of life synagogue said on this network earlier today. >> once again, jewish americans, many are afraid to enter their houses of worship to pray because of what just happened in colleyville. and to that extend, that's a failure of america. shame on america for creating an environment where an entire community is afraid for their own existence. america has to step up, big, to be able to say that we are a place that does value life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and the expressions of religious freedom. so far, america is not

succeeding in those promises in our sacred documents. >> jonathan, you and i do talk, not only when there is a tragic event. but i guess my thought is, you shouldn't have to cite all the incidents of extreme violence because the truth is, the mere act of the most mundane attendance to any person sort of faith rituals is what's scary now. and i remember after 9/11 that this whole frame around the terrorists triumph was if you are scared to get on an airplane, if you are scared the leave your house, they have won. it seems that hate has won if people are afraid in their houses of worship. what do we do about that? >> well, i must say, i am going to tell you this here tonight, nicolle. you are going to see a massive participation in shabbat services this saturday morning at synagogues across the country. jews have learned for thousands of years not to be afraid. our resilience and our resolve is not going to be daunted by

some radical islamist crazy person from the uk or some radical white supremacists from here in america. you can forget it. we are going to push on. but what i will just say is world in which -- you know, my wife is afraid to go to the supermarket. my brother is afraid to take his children to school, like i'm afraid to walk into a synagogue. this is not america. it is as rabbi myers told new that interview, this is not a jewish problem. it's an american problem. just like i would say to the rev, anti-black racism is not just his issue. it is may issue, too. and anti-jewish hate, anti-semitism is everyone's problem. to think that jews who are just 2% of this country's population, are the victims of 60% of the hate crimes directed against religion -- to think that we continue to be the animus of so many lunatics i think is deeply alarming and america needs elected officials on both sides

of the spectrum, needs to take stock and start implementing the right kind of policy. and i want to say one more thing. >> please. >> the answer to, it's so important to note that, yes, this was a radical islamist person. but we have got to reach out to the muslim community. we can never build walls that are high enough. we can never implement enough locks and procedures. those may save lives. but ultimately, we are in this american experiment together. and whether it is blacks and whites, jews and muslims, aapi people and others, we node to recognize we have more in common than that which keeps us apart and push back on those people who use prejudice as a weapon, political or in any other form. >> you made two references to sort of the political arena. i wonder if you can be prescriptive. what is the measure you would like to see leaders -- you referenced both parties -- take immediately? >> i will give you three things.

be number one, i think we need a change in the tone in this country and woe need to break the kind of trap of tribalism. people on the right need to call out the answer semitism, especially when it comes on the right. and people on the left need to call it out even when it comes from the left. where whether it is gussied up as anti-casinoism or anti-liberal -- whatever it is, call it out. number two we really want the congress to finally confirm deborah lip stat as the envoy. it is being held up in congress. she's an apolitical person. she needs to be confirmed. there is a non-profit security grants program. it provides money to houses of worship, community centers, schools for jews and none jews. we want congress to prioritize

the funding for that. the sooner the better to make the jewish community and all communities feel more secure. >> jonathan greenblatt thank you for your time on any day, especially for your time today. thanks for spending some of your time with us. >> thank you. >> i want to bring the rev and claire in. rev, you were name checked. again, i -- we have this conversation amongst ourselves more often than around tragedies. but i think around tragedies there is a particularly sort of beautiful phenomenon of everyone saying we stand together. but i guess i will push you on this question. everyone is afraid. and, you know, kids are afraid. they do active shooter drills in their schools. they are afraid of gun violence. jonathan is talking about being afraid going to synagogue. i know every mom and dad of a black teenage boy is afraid every minute of every day that they are outside of the house. what do we do about all this

fear? >> i think the first thing we have to do is understand that fear is not going to be a refuge from danger. the only way we are going to stop this is we are going to have to come together and fight it together. so when you see what we saw this weekend with the synagogue, unlikely people like me have to denounce it, which we did. i reached out to jonathan. jonathan reaches out to me. there will be people in both communities that will not like that, there are extremes on both sides. you must not only lose the fear of going to places. you must lose the fear of being criticized by your own for saying that you can't fight racism against blacks without fighting anti-semitism, xenophobia, homophobia. we have got to become fearless. and you have really nothing to lose because all this hiding

behind our boundary lines afraid has not stopped this. so if we would sacrifice our fear and work on getting beyond our fear, work together, we could set a new climate in this country. you know, this is the martin luther king holiday. rabbis marched with king. there were some that criticized rabbi herber. he went to selma. this is a man who was criticized by his own community. when dr. king died, he was below the positive line in the polls in the black community. he was being criticized saying that you are not strident enough, we don't want no violence. non-violence anymore. and others were saying why don't you come out against the war in vietnam, lyndon johnson has been good on civil rights? he stood up anyway. the reason he went back to memphis is because he had gone

there to support some garbage workers who were striking and some young so-called militants disrupted the march and had a riot. he went back in in april to prove he could have a non-violent march. that's when he got killed. we must stand up to extremes on all sides. if we do that, we can change the tone in this country. that is why all of us ought to stand up and denounce what happened in texas at that synagogue. all about, we are not sure if it was anti-semitic. they targeted a synagogue, a rabbi and people in there. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if you target it and profile it, that's what they chose to penetrate and try to use their hate toward. and all of us need to say that's what happened. >> rev, i like that you have hit this i think sort of soft underbelly of one of the greatest wounds i think in our conversations. and that's sort of fear of our own side being mad at us.

i think i am. i spend a lot of time in that space. i guess my former side. i think claire spends a lot of time in that space, too. i need you to say more about this intersection of really understanding our history and understanding -- understanding king's legacy. it wasn't sort of writing the accolades of what in today's age would maybe be your own twitter followers. it was telling difficult truths to the people you care about the most. and we seem to be so lacking in that. so i need you to say more about that. >> you know, i started -- i was a boy preacher. when i started becoming enthralled watching the news of the civil rights movement and i wanted to go to rallies in new york, i didn't come from the south like dr. king and a lot of the leaders. i was born in new york, raised in brooklyn. there was a more strident area. it was more a people that did not believe in non-violence. my mother brought me to reverend william jones and reverend jesse

jackson who were older than me. they were twice my age. i was 12. she said he keeps watching this stuff, i don't want him to leave the church. they took me in and i became director of dr. king's chapter in new york after he was killed. he was unpopular. that's why i know dr. king was as criticized on the left among his own community. people were saying his day was over, non-violence was over. i will never forget nicolle, sitting there, 13 years old, watching dr. king on a cbs special saying i don't care if i am the only non-violence person left in the black community -- he said the negro community at that time. i still am going to stand for non-violence. the same people who were denouncing him two weeks later were having martin luther king memorials after he got killed. king said if you cannot stand up to your own, then you can stand up to others.

the same -- i am sure claire knows this. same was true if you studied nelson mandela. there were people against him meeting with the clerk and others and having a transition of power and a democratic election. they wanted to run everybody out of south africa. what made mandela great is he dealt with those that had locked him up for 27 years. somebody that puts you in jail for 27 years, and you come out and the said, for the greater good, we need to sit down and find a way to make this country work for everybody -- greatness and fame is two different things. fame means you are well-known. greatness means you do things that are outside the norm that is risky, that may backfire, but you do it because it's right. and martin luther king was a great man. mandela was a great man. and they thought people like me you can be famous, but it won't matter. if you are great, it matters. and sometimes you are great

without even being famous. >> claire, i need to you jump in on any of the above topics, but just pick up on this -- this tendency that we have. i think a lot of it is sort the shallowness of social media, and shallow tributes that don't get at the hard work, the hard things. again, to the rev's point, their greatness wasn't in their popularity. their greatness was in being willing to be unpopular, to do the difficult things that needed to be done, their playing for history. and you take jonathan greenblatt who has been a frequent guest on this program. i don't know that i have ever seen his rage so palpable at the increasing number of attacks and the pervasive sense of fear. if you could tackle both pillars of the conversation. >> well, i think it's important just to remember that love and understanding is foundational to

all religions. and the opposite of love is extremism. and the opposite of love is actually finding a reason to be fearful and angry at someone that's different than you, a different race, different religion, or a different neighborhood. and what came out of this weekend for me -- and i got choked up today when i read the story -- was here was this rabbi's wife, while she was listening to the rant of, clearly, someone who was bent on harm and violence against her husband and their faith. and while she was listening to that and waiting with, i can't imagine the fear and the anger that she must have been feeling, three muslim women came to the church where they were all

gathered. by the way, it was a christian church, it was a catholic church. and they brought her favorite dish. they were friends of hers. and the description of them falling into each other's arms, these three muslim women, and the wife of that rabbi, that is what we have to talk about. that's what every religion preaches, whether it is the jewish faith or whether the muslim faith or whether it is christianity. and everyone who is going the use this as an excuse to look at someone askance and to decide that someone who has certain name or has a certain look deserves their hate, that is the problem we have. and all of the political people who are silent in the face of extremism, they are part of the blame. >> claire, the reporting goes on to say that moment, all of us

cried, the women who came to comfort her. the communities there at the end of the day are standing together with the absolute understanding this was a lunatic. but you can't disconnect this from the broader climate and what's being said and suggested out there. how do you fix what's being said out there? >> well, it's a problem, because we have right now an abdication of what i think is the integrity of moral behavior. and i lay a lot of this at the norms that were blown up during the trump years. and i know we are going to talk about this in a subsequent segment today, but i have to bring up that within 24 hours of this happening the former president of the united states was saying that people that were white were not being allowed to get vaccinations for covid.

he was stoking racial fear. >> yeah. >> he was stoking racial hatred. and i have not seen one damn republican call him out today for that. not one. not one. and the idea that anybody could stand up and say something that outrageous with a clear purpose to drive division, racial division, in this country, and nobody who is a republican elected official is standing up and calling him out tells you all you need to know about what a mess we are in right now. this is really, really troubling. >> yeah. i mean, my son likes the dinosaurs. i think when we are that old and they look at where our moment went off the rails, they will look at the silence of republicans. no one -- trump will be a foot note. there will be a chapter on him. but it will be the silence of republican leaders who ushered in exactly what we are talking about and living through. the rev and claire are sticking around. after the break, the horrific and deadly unprovoked

attack against an asian american woman in the new york subway sparking new fears in the wake of a rise of hate crimes in america. plus, donald trump choosing this fraught moment in america to stake his political comeback tour on a new race-baiting message that claire just previewed fors. and later in the program, the select committee facing a major decision on subpoenas for signature members of congress. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. a quick. a quick. don't go anywhere today.logy. like the new miracle-earmini, available exclusively at miracle-ear. so small that no one will see it, but you'll notice the difference. and now, miracle-ear is offering a thirty-day risk-free trial. you can experience better hearing with no obligation. call 1-800-miracle right now and experience a better life.

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too often, asian americans are seen as foreigners, and people who are not truly american. and so we want to make sure that we are standing as a city against all discrimination. >> new york congresswoman grace manning on the already heightened fears felt by asian people all across our country atmosphere a senseless violence over the weekend. a woman was pushed in front of the subway train she was waiting to board in times square. police say they are attacker was a home its man who turned himself in and is being charged with second-degree murder. they say the attack was unprovoked and he had approached another woman earlier. it is another senseless act of violence on the asian community. answered asian hate crimes spiked across this country during the covid pandemic. in new york city alone last year

incidents targeting asian americans rose by 361%. joining us now, executive director the asian pacific policy and planning council and cofounder of stop aapi hate. and georgia state representative bee nguyen is here. let me start with the fear that people feel. obviously the policework is ongoing. but the fear persists regardless whether this one tragic incident was motivated, whether she was targeted, the fear is pervasive. >> absolutely. and let me just start off by saying how incredibly saddened we were by the news of this horrific killing of michelle alissa goh. and i want to express my condolences to the family and also say that, you know, we were

relieved to know that all the hostages in the texas synagogue were able to escape unharmed. but you are absolutely right, nicolle, that individuals in our communities are feeling an incredible amount of fear. we have received 10,000 incident reports from all 50 states and the district of columbia since we began collecting this data. that includes 1,300 from new york city alone. it's because of these hi numbers that when we did a report with the asian american psychologists association we found that, in fact, individuals in the asian american and pacific islander community are more worried about the hate that they are experiencing than they are even about covid-19. so that's raised alarm bells for all of us and signalled that we need to do something about what is happening each and every day. >> represent any nguyen, you

tweeted this in december, unfortunately, it required the brutal massacre of six asian women in atlanta to force a national conversation. even though hate crimes were up 150%, mostly against asian women. i guess my question for you is do you feel like the conversation has been sustained? or do we careen from tragedy to tragedy, crisis to crisis? >> yeah, thanks, nicolle. i think key do careen from tragedy to tragedy because there is just so much going on right now. we are still in a pandemic and there are horrific incidences that happen every day, just like the hostage situation where the jewish community is dealing with the aftereffects of fear and anti-semitism. so it is hard for us to stay on topic. but even before that brutal massacre that left six asian

women dead, we were calling for help. my colleague across the aisle took the senate floor and she said, our community is in need of help. we need to you hear us. and just a few days later, that incident happened. and the reality is, the crimes against asian americans living in our country has not stopped. and so, you know, seeing somebody like michelle -- we are the same age. i am a 40-year-old asian woman. and i thought, that could very well have been somebody like me. >> it's this sort of access into the fear that is becoming universal. we talked about it at the top of the show. jonathan greenblatt said we are all afraid. afraid of going into a synagogue. the kids are afraid of going to school because of active shooter drills. we're afraid of crime in some places. we afraid -- we talked to the rev about being afraid of being targeted as young american men in this country.

what to you, representative nguyen is the way to bring it under one umbrella and having the conversation with raising our kids in fear? >> being other in this country is not new. it has been pervasive. if we look at the history of people in our country we know that oftentimes different groups have been cast aside. that still happens now. recognizing we are dealing with the same history and the same present day issues. and it was unleashed because we had a leader in this country who kind of ripped off the band-aid and allowed this to happen and made it acceptable. but the reality is we have to come together because those shared fears of you know why our communities are being targeted are based on the same thing.

so if we can continue to uplift each other's communities and have each other's back and understand that it is our distinct differences that make our country unique, that makes our country stronger and really shut down a lot of the rhetoric that has been going on that has been acceptable, that that existed in our country, but really was given permission for people to unleash that under the former president. >> representative nip is obviously talking about donald trump constantly describing the covid-19 pandemic as the china flu and other incredibly derogatory snooerz she's describing amplified by his base and supporters and those in his echo chambers. i wonder how you combat with small acts of understanding and

neighborly love, someone with that massive megaphone. >> well, first off, as senator mccaskill said in the earlier segment, we absolutely need accountability. when comments are made like the wuhan virus, kung fu virus, we need others, our elected officials, to stand up for our communities and stop aapi hate. when we examined this issue we found almost 30% of incidents involved some of the same language that president trump had used. essentially, he and others are putting our community members at risk. and so i think what we need to do, too, is look at solutions in our educational realm. we need community-based programs. and we also need civil rights enforcement. so that when these attacks happen, when the discrimination in the workplace or retail --

when we have these type of incidents that take place, we need to be able to address them and get really some solutions and answers for individuals who have experienced them. >> thank you both so much for spending some time with us today. to be continued. up next for us, we have been discussing the expresident's race baiting return to the rally circuit, if you will. that's next. circuit, if you will circuit, if you will that's next. at 4 months after just two doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, such as fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. ♪ nothing is everything. ♪ woman: talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. living with diabetes? glucerna protein smart has your number

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the twice impeached disgraced expresident called out as a loser by the current president a week ago made his way to a rally in arizona this weekend as part of what looks like a political comeback tour? no surprise. his actual remarks at the rally were littered with false statements, conspiracy theories, and divisiveness. but at least one comment was shocking enough to stop us in our tracks. and inspire to us take it apart and cover it. patently untrue claims that, as claire alluded to, covid vaccines and treatments for covid are being distributed on the basis of race, trump telling his fans that quote the left is now remarking life saving therapeutics race based on race, discriminating against and denigrating white people, to determine who lives and who dies. if you are white you don't get

the vaccine. or if you are white you don't get the therapeutics. joining our conversation, miles taylor former chief of chaff for the pfs. the rev and claire are still with us. miles, what gives? what is with this? what is he doing in his sort of fact-immune world? what is this play? >> look, there is more trump crazy. and i guess, nicolle we can be a little bit relieved that he canceled his speech on january 6th but not relieved that donald trump still seems to be endlessly on campaign trail. what is this about? this is really trump going to a place that's ground zero for his future political ambitions. he was in arizona which has really become a called draughn of crazy congressional candidates, a lot of them tied to trump. ron watkins believed to be behind the qanon conspiracy is running for office there and still in trumpland.

i talked to people who say the former president is viewing the 2022 mid terms as a direct pathway to his 2024 political ambitions. make no mistake, donald trump is planning to run again in 2024. just the other day a senior operative said if he was down to his $1,000 and had to bet it in vegas he would say donald trump is president in 2025. it is one of the reasons why in the past week a group of republican administration officials came together to talk about a way to stop their former boss from running again. and it is dire. this is how he whips up his race, misinformation, grievances and that's how he plans to win back the white house in a few years. >> what would you talk about. a lot of people spent the last five years trying to remind republicans what they used to

stand for -- they used to stand for policies that might have been unpopular on the left, but never outright lies and flagrant misinformation that's getting their own voters killed -- what is the plan to try to stop him? >> look, it wouldn't be unreasonable for people to say hey, guys, where have you been. but the good news there are people close to trump, senior folks who have not yet spoken out against him are coming to the realization this could happen again and to stop it there needs to be a full-fledged political plan first in 2022 to blunt his momentum. because again, people close to trump say he's going the base his on 2024 and how he goes about it on how he does and how his candidates do in the mid terms. they are in the midst of raising north of $100 million to soften the battlefield for him in the next presidential race. what can people do? at a bare minimum folks need to

come together and work against trump-endorsed candidates across the country. it is a conversation that's ongoing. there are going to be more conversations late they are week. but i am hoping that people will step forward and do something about it from within the party. >> rev? do you think donald trump once looked a the sun during the eclipse, so it is not a great metaphor. but covering trump is so hard to do because we all want him to go away. but as miles is talking about, democrats and republicans sort of in the political arena don't just fear that he will run again. they expect him to. what is sort of the coalition that elected joe biden -- what do you think its priorities need to be right now? >> well, i think priorities of those that elected joe biden must be to get turnout and to win in these midterm elections in a big way. that would beat back the

perception that donald trump and his acco lights are momentum and a wave they are riding. that's why he's stoking the fear of whites that you are not getting vaccines. and these are the same kind of tactics he used before that people ignored because the people that they are talking to and that we are talking to see that as nonsense. but there is a mass of people that believe that stuff. and we need to get out there and either turn them around or beat them at a congressional level. that's why getting passed these state voting rights bills are so important. you can't have turnout if people can't vote. if republicans sweep sweets this year donald trump running is inevitable and his winning is possible. he has to be stopped now. if i was going the use a boxing match as a metaphor, you have

got to knock him out in the first two rounds. the longer the fight goes, the more he could win, or the decision. we have to knock him out this i don't remember. >> claire, there were comments about democrats getting themselves on offense. the democrats passed the one thing -- donald trump never seemed interested in governing in any arena except infrastructure. joe biden passed a massive infrastructure bill, the one thing trump was intent on doing. what will it take for democrats to psychologically get themselves on offense politically? >> i think one of the things that happened here is that when we controlled the house, the senate, and the white house, everyone began reaching for what they believe was possible rather than what was probably realistic in a 50/50 senate. i mean even though joe biden won in a free and fair election, and

won decisively, it was still closer than it had any right to be in this country. and that's what democrats need to remember. just because we won doesn't mean that all of a sudden trump and the people who follow him are going to magically disappear. and so you have to fight that on offense with good candidates, good campaigns, high enthusiasm. and we have got to stop the in-fighting. are you too progressive? are you too moderate? you know, we have got to come together and realize that there is 25% of the republican party that knows trump is full of you know what. 25%, that's a big number. we have got to get that 25%, and we have got to win the majority of the independents. that's our task. and i have just got ask the rev. i mean, i looked at that rally, and i listened to what he said, that white people were being denied the vaccine, the clear

message that black people were being prioritized for the vaccine over white people. everyone knows what he was trying to do. he was trying to get people to be mad at black people. what did those black people sitting behind him think when he said that? i'm like -- it's like, i don't get that. >> it was -- well, the fact that we all saw them sitting there, clearly they were put there for the optics. there was one guy that went around the whole 2020 race with a blacks for trump sign. it seems like now he's got more. and they are put there strategically so that he can say the most racist things and not look racist, because they all just automatically -- i mean who gets a group of people, blacks for trump, and just happens to hit there, and they happen to get within camera view? i mean, no one could be that stupid to think that that just

happened to be they got the good seats. that is choreographed so excel racism and look like he's not a racist. and i think it is something that we all ought to deplore. i wouldn't waste my time i would waste my time -- i would spend my time telling people, whites that he says that you're being discriminated against, this is the same man, when he was president, that denied it was a pandemic until it had broke out all over the country, and then he told you to use bleach if there was anyone that hurt whites and blacks with the pandemic, it's donald trump. >> yeah. i'll never forget debra burke's face when he suggested that from a podium. i'm going to ask all of you to stick around. we'll pick this up on the other side. ick around we'll pick this up on the other side

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we're back with miles, the rev, al, and claire. miles, i want to get you in on what you think this sort of appetite for putting the band back together is. i mean, a lot of the ex-president's campaign folks, looks like bill stepien and others, are of interest to the 1/6 committee. the investigation into the insurrection seems to be looking at more serious charges for the kinds of groups that trump told to stand by and stand back, so being around him, being in his presence, being in his rallies seems to be a liability. do you sense that the band is sort of in witness protection, or are they all running back to arizona to be part of this?

>> oh, man, it's a great question, nicole. here's what worries me. a lot of the rational people that had served in the trump orbit are long since gone, right? i mean, he systematically dismantled the guardrails over four years and got rid of those folks. the people that were left in his orbit are the bottom of the barrel. these are the people who are willing to do whatever trump wants, whenever trump wants them to do it and are really just his full-on full-time sycophants. here's the worry. donald trump runs for office again and wins. he already knows who to avoid. he knows not to bring in more people who see themselves as democracy's guardrails, right? he's going to bring the sycophants back in. that's what really worries me about 2024 is that you got these folks who are the ones who are the devil on trump's shoulder, not the angels, if there ever was any, that are going to be the ones that surround him, populate his administration, and that he would appoint as acting officials in a second term. in short, yeah, the band's

getting back together but the really bad band and that's what the american people should be worried about. >> i mean, claire, it just gets to the urgency of having this problem dealt with from within the republican party. i mean, to be totally blunt, there's not a ton any of the four of us can say, right? but you need the most powerful power centers on the right, those odious sort of disseminators of hate in right-wing media to choose somebody else. where do you see the odds of that happening? >> yeah, most of my former colleagues in the senate, republicans, fervently wish that donald trump would go away. they are looking the other way. they're trying not to engage because they don't want to take the political hit for opposing him, but they don't support him. now, there's probably ten of them that do. but that leaves 40 republican senators that know he's not good for this country. i would say that those 40 need to have some kind of super

secret retreat and talk about what is it going to be like. >> maybe not so secret, claire. >> well, you want my pillow guy running the commerce department? we going to have rudy giuliani as attorney general? are we going to have what's her name? what's the crazy woman -- >> sidney powell. >> you know what i'm talking about, the crazy lawyer. sidney powell as attorney general? those 40 republican senators know what a disaster that would be for this nation, and it's time for them to suit up and get busy before these primaries. because if, in fact, the trump people win these primaries, and come to washington, it's going to be even harder to hold him in check like they tried to do the first four years. >> special thanks to all of you. >> can i add one thing? >> go ahead. >> oh, okay. i was just going to say, claire said one thing that we should remember before we jump to break and that is, there are 20% to 30% of republicans who really want to do something about this. those are the folks we need to win over in these races and get

them to join the dems in key races to keep trumpers out of congress. that was a good point, senator. >> from your lips. the rev has a new book out, "righteous troublemakers." miles taylor, the reverend al sharpton and claire mccaskill, thank you very much for spending a holiday monday with us. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick house" starts after a quick break. but we did agree this rug was perfect. okay. stop being weird. mom and daughter agreeing on something. wayfair works miracles! ooh! check this one out. hair is so comfortable. it puts both of my babies to sleep. look at you making a space that works perfectly for all of you! i could use a good nap.

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from having to render truthful testimony that goes to members of the press or to politicians or to friends of powerful people. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. before the january 6th select committee lies a major decision, whether to subpoena their colleagues, sitting members of congress. so far, the three republican lawmakers from whom the committee has asked for cooperation have said, no, forcing it to now decide how far it will go in getting to the bottom of what led to the capitol insurrection. "washington post" reports this weekend on the dynamics at play. quote, the panel is divided on whether to pursue such subpoenas, in part over fears that a protracted legal fight would delay the committee's goal of issuing a report ahead of the november midterms. that's according to people familiar with the debate who spoke anonymously. subpoenas aren't the only question from the committee. more from the "post," quote, at the same time, the panel has begun preliminary discussions with former vice president mike pence over how to obtain his

account of events, including the sustained pressure he received from trump and other republicans to block certification of biden's election victory. for pence, the committee's goal would be to get the former vice president to answer questions under oath, ideally in public, but the former vice president has been clear from the beginning that he does not wish nor plan to testify, according to people familiar with the conversations. but we cannot focus solely on those few who are not cooperating. we know the panel has interviewed nearly 400 witnesses up to this point. among them, former acting defense secretary, chris miller, who met with the committee on friday. now, publicly, miller has already made some pretty jaw-dropping comments, especially when it comes to the ex-president's role in sparking the riot. miller said this to vice news back in march. >> do you think the president was responsible for what happened on the 6th? >> i don't know. but it seems cause and effect. yeah. the question is, would anybody have marched on the capitol and

overrun the capitol without the president's speech? i think it's pretty much definitive that wouldn't have happened. >> so, even in acting capacity, he was in charge of our country's military, and the guy who was in charge of our country's military said cause and effect. right? without the president. he later started some bizarre half step back, saying that an organized assault element was already in place, no matter what the president said. it will be interesting to learn what exactly came out of his mouth behind closed doors to the 1/6 committee. what we're witnessing now, though, is an investigative panel ensuring that no stone is left unturned, no question left unanswered. meanwhile, not a peep from doj with regards to any investigation into those involved in what jamie raskin calls the third ring, the coup attempt that preceded the capitol attack. another piece from the "post" says, quote, the justice department's decision to charge oath keepers with seditious conspiracy last week makes clear that prosecutors consider the

january 6th attack on the capitol part of an organized assault to prevent the peaceful transfer of presidential power, but so far, the department does not appear to be directly investigating the person whose desperate bid to stay in office motivated the mayhem, former president trump, either for potentially inciting the riot or for what some observers see as a related pressure campaign to overturn the results of the election. the january 6th committee moving with deliberate speed and a doj possibly not moving at all when it comes to investigating the insiders of the insurrection is where we start this hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. "washington post" congressional correspondent jackie is here. also joining us, charlie sykes, columnist and editor at large of the bulwark and clint watts is back, a distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy research institute and msnbc national security analyst. so much great reporting on the 1/6 committee in the "post" this

weekend, jackie, and a lot of it your good work. tell me about this -- i don't want to call it a divide, but this debate that the committee is engaged in around subpoenaing republican members. >> yeah, nicole, thank you so much for something me on to talk about it. there are two sort of lingering questions that the committee is grappling with at the moment as they are working on closing up their investigation and pivoting to the public phase of the committee's purpose, and these are the issues of, will they ultimately subpoena lawmakers. they have issued voluntary requests to house minority leader kevin mccarthy, congressman scott perry, and jim jordan, people who were in touch with former president trump in the days and months leading up to january 6th on january 6th and after january 6th and were also involved in efforts to overturn the results of the election, along with the very sensitive topic of how they're going to get a firsthand account from former vice president mike

pence who was the target of all of this -- these pressure campaigns that were being put together by the outside legal coup, as you noted, congressman raskin's nickname for it, and that those were the -- the outside legal advisors who were trying to convince pence in a multitude of ways to take action on january 6th and block the electoral certification. with those subpoenas, i think there's been some really interesting details that we have been able to glean from those conversations that investigators and lawyers are having right now about whether or not they're going to ultimately take the rather unprecedented step of subpoenaing sitting lawmakers and what they have been doing right now is finding, identifying past precedent for congress subpoenaing their own. they've actually found it already with former congressman charlie rangel as he was investigated by the ethics

committee for two years, again, a democrat that was subpoenaed and ultimately complied with these subpoenas, along with a few other cases, and then the case of the former vice president, the committee is now treading very lightly, but we do know that they have secured the testimony -- future testimony from top pence aides marc short and greg jacobs, his former counsel. >> jackie, is there any indication that they have sought to speak to mike pence's secret service detail? they've been written about by carol leonnig and phil rucker as having the full confidence of mike pence, but when he gets to the basement on 1/6, he refuses to get in a car driven by the secret service, and i wonder if there's any interest in talking to people to sort of inch all around mike pence. >> that is very good question. i'm not quite sure the secret service aspect of it but we do know that the committee and congresswoman liz cheney, the vice chair of the committee, informally reached out to former vice president dan quayle, who

as our colleague bob costa and bob woodward had previously reported, had been in touch with the vice president ahead of january 6th in that retelling of their interaction in their book, quayle indicated a minor level of, you know -- of potentially not -- mike pence not being as resolute as he could have been in that decision, although ultimately, obviously, mike pence went on to block the electoral certification. we confirmed that liz cheney had reached out to quayle and he went on the record and gave us a statement that said that the two did, in fact, speak and that, actually, you know, there was no sense of any hesitation on the part of mike pence to do the right thing, and that he praised and lauded the vice president for his efforts in making sure that democracy was not derailed. but you know, it's unclear so

far if there are others in the periphery that they've reached out to, to get a better sense of the vice president's mindset on that day. >> both things can be true and i think miles taylor just made this reference to a good angel and devil on one's shoulder. dan quayle clearly played the angel on mike pence's shoulder while donald trump played the devil and both of them were in his ear. we know what donald trump said to mike pence because he said it on a rally stage in georgia ahead of those two senate specials. he said it on twitter as the deadly insurrection was under way. and we know that the vice president's chief of staff is complying with the subpoena. they're all efforts on all sides to characterize that cooperation, but a subpoena's a subpoena. the questions are the questions and there's no indication that he's lied to the committee or not turned over documents, so you've got the chief of staff. it sounds like dan quayle, who i think liz cheney knows personally, has been communicating about what dan quayle said to mike pence on

that phone call. where, in your view, is the most sort of opaque conduct around any of these sort of unwilling participants in the 1/6 committee investigation? >> well, you know, i think you're right to put the emphasis on all the people who are cooperating. look, i mean, i have no problem with the committee subpoenaing other members of congress, but i think it is important to have the reality check that there's nothing they can do that can actually compel this testimony. i mean, even if they were to file criminal referrals for contempt, that does not actually force the testimony. but what you are seeing, though, is this incredible flood of data, of information, of text messages that they are using to put together what i think could be a very, very compelling story. we talked about this before. when this committee has the

televised public hearings, which i hope are primetime and i hope people watch them, i think that they are going to be able to, you know, connect the dots, so there are, you know, opaque things in this investigation. i think it's very disappointing that the department of justice is not at least publicly doing anything to hold the former president accountable. i think that's the big question mark over all of this is, will this go past the low level conspirators, the people who went into the capitol and leave the folks who actually inspired this entire insurrection off the hook? and i think that's what makes the work of the january 6th committee so important. if the department of justice is not going to point the finger and document the role that donald trump played, it will be left up to the january 6th committee to do that. >> charlie, let me just press on the republican members. i mean, jamie hererra butler

characterized kevin mccarthy's call with donald trump. why not ask jamie herrera butler to talk to them? the person that you want to talk to doesn't always pick up the phone and if they don't talk to you, they don't talk to you on the record and sometimes they don't tell you the truth. this investigation is pursuing phone records, metadata, you know, people that are responsive to subpoenas. it seems like there are other ways to get at what kevin mccarthy and when -- i mean, and i would guess that the phone log when he talked to him is important too. >> yes. no, that's right. and that's why, you know, mark meadows is refusing to testify, but he's turned over a lot of documentation. you know, this story, in the end, will not have a lot of mysteries. there will not be a lot of secrets. i think we will know, really, what happened and who did what, including what did the president do, you know, how did he spend those hours when the capitol was being attacked by his supporters in his name? we're going to know all of that.

so, look, the problem that kevin mccarthy has is that, you know, he can't cooperate because that would risk the wrath of mar-a-lago. a lot of these folks know that, you know, the orders have basically come down from donald trump, that they should not cooperate. this is a cover-up, an obstruction in plain sight, in realtime, in plain view. they are willing to make the tradeoff of all of this, but this should not stop the january 6th committee, i think, from getting to the bottom of all of this. and i actually, even though i'm often skeptical about these things, i do think that the way this committee appears to be going about its business leads me to believe that they're going to have a lot more avenues to get to the truth than some of these, you know, topline headlines might suggest. >> clint, liz cheney talks about trumpism as a threat to the country and to democracy the same way liz cheney has talked about other threats to the

homeland. obviously a hawk. her views are very much out of step with a lot of democrats with whom she's now working to hold trump and trumpism accountable, and it seems to me that we have all witnessed efforts to hold trump accountable, and the only way -- and we know trump watches. he watches television. there's not much other conduct that we know he engages in, other than golf. when he was on trial twice in the u.s. senate, all he did -- the reason elise stefanik has risen in the republican party is because of her performative conduct when donald trump was under attack. if none of the republicans participate in the 1/6 investigation in any regard, there will be no trump defense for hours and hours of live primetime television coverage. what happens to the disseminators of disinformation if there's roadblock coverage that does not include the b.s. of trump's defense? >> yeah, i think for the middle

of the country, you know, the 80% that sit between the far extremes, it's going to be a pretty damning account of what went on, and i think there's really no way around it at this point. between the one year of what we've learned and what people have watched, what they've seen repeatedly, anyone that doesn't believe january 6th was an absolute disaster and that the white house was ultimately responsible has just buried their head in the sand and doesn't want to hear what's really going on in the world. i think the real thing that i find fascinating is, on capitol hill, there seems to be this sort of belief that they can kind of just deny that it occurred or try and change the story, but what they keep forgetting is the number of indictments that will continue to land, probably, in the coming months that are similar to the indictment, the seditious indictment that came out last week about the oath keepers, which is in awful document. it's like nothing we've ever seen in terms of a domestic

extremism case that was literally there to try and overthrow the country. so, that's going to be hard to just sit and ignore and not speak about. as those roll out, those are hard facts, and it reminds me of other times where we have seen government investigations unfold. yes, we'll have the committee hearings at night but you're going to see more and more indictments, i think, continue to flow out, which we're going to have details that are awful. i think the other part of it is how and when will these connect to the leadership or others inside the white house? that's the real open gap for me and you had mentioned it before, which is, if the department of justice ultimately ends up pursuing some cases, based on monetary or communications with those that are inside capitol hill, or if many of those that have been charged now go in to some sort of agreement, trying to get out or reduce their sentences, and they point to people that were in the capitol or in the white house, during the insurrection, it's going to get really ugly. those details will spill out into the open. so, i am a little confused in

terms of strategy from some on capitol hill in the republican party about trying to just ignore this because it's going to go on for the next three to four months and the details are not going to be pretty. >> speaking of that which is not pretty, clint, you have a piece that is harrowing. you write, we're training our own insurrectionists. explain. >> i think, nicole, when you look at that indictment, it reads like anything i would have gotten in the ranger handbook when i started as a young infantry officer. it is different from what you see in terms of the other cases that are out there. there was planning. there was organization. there was training and reconnaissance. there was a quick reaction force. there was a plan for violence on a mass scale. i think when i read through that indictment, what we tend to find is that, yes, there are lots of extremists in the country. very few of them really understand what to do or what to do in terms of making a plan. the difference really between these folks on this day is they

had access to the target, they had access to weapons, and they had a strategic plan about what to do, which is why they were so organized that day. if you look at international terrorism, just a decade or two ago, most of the plots that were uncovered were not this detailed, nor were they even that competent at it. this is quite competent, and what kept us from having a really violent incident that day was probably just some gunshots so i'm hoping people in this country take this serious and we have a problem in this country. >> thank you so much for starting us off this hour. charlie sticks around. when we come back, republican lawmakers in michigan are under investigation for falsely trying to claim president joe biden's election victory for donald trump using a fake slate of electors. does that sound familiar? it's what was prescribed by john eastman as part of a much larger conspiracy to overthrow the 2020 election. the state's attorney general is our next guest.

plus the white house is accusing moscow of trying to fabricate a pretext to justify the invasion of ukraine. we'll look at what's happening on the ground there as fears of a military conflict escalate. and later, why the u.s. surgeon general says that despite some optimistic covid news in some parts of the country, the nation as a whole is in for a rough few weeks. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. weeks. "deadline white house" continues "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. these are the faces of listerine. the face of millions of germs zapped in seconds. the face of clean.

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we think this is a matter that is best investigated and potentially prosecuted by the feds, and as such, just today, we referred this matter to the

western district, the u.s. attorney's office, for them to evaluate it, and we hope that main justice and the department of justice will become involved and use the information they already have to better understand exactly what happened that day so that federal charges can be evaluated. >> a major leap forward when it happened in a story revealed to a lot of us in a master class on the part of my colleague rachel maddow and her team, among others. you just heard from michigan's attorney general, who is asking federal prosecutors and doj to investigate 16 republican state lawmakers who, in december of 2020, signed fake documents, forgeries, claiming to be the, quote, duly elected eelectors from that state. well, joe biden won michigan by 154,000 votes. wasn't really that close at all. those 16 republicans sought to falsify the results and claim trump won the state.

even tried to get into the state capitol while the real electors were already inside. so, instead, they sent their fake document saying trump had won to the u.s. senate and district court. it was obviously illegal. and the question now, one we've grown familiar with in the age of trump, how high up did their conduct go? consider what happened in michigan reflected as part of a larger effort, replicated across multiple states. similarities in their forged documents, including the font, spacing and style suggest some coordination, so something the feds will likely be interested in. who was doing that coordinating? joining us now is michigan attorney general dana nessel and charlie sykes is still with us, who's been writing about this and tweeting about this. madame attorney general, what's your understanding of whether the -- who's investigating. >> well, i can't claim to have

an understanding. i mean, obviously, we gave them everything that we had and forwarded it on to them. and it is my hope and honestly my expectation based on the massive amounts of evidence that they will pursue this investigation, and if they find that prosecution is warranted, then they'll go ahead and charge. i will tell you that the detroit news continues to follow this story, and just today, i saw an article, i can't confirm this, that one of the false electors indicated that he received the information about this directly from the trump campaign. i don't know if that's true or not. i'm just indicating what has been reported. so, i mean, obviously, it's not shocking, and it shouldn't surprise anybody, given the fact that it appears as though there was coordination between multiple states that it came from one place and that it wasn't just a number of republican party activists and all these different states that just decided to do this at the same time in the exact same way. >> yeah, i mean, there are no

coincidences in politics, and for as chaotic as the trump era was, there actually was something in writing abo just this, the eastman memo says, quote, at the end, pence announces that because of the ongoing disputes in seven states, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those states. that means the total number of electors appointed, the language of the 12th amendment is 454, a majority of the electors appointed would therefore be 228. at this point, 232 votes for trump, pence then gavels in, trump is re-elected. the coup plot as put on paper by john eastman was predicated on seven states, including michigan. and it would appear that if eastman's call was heeded in michigan, they were simply doing what they were called to do. is there any pushback on the claims that have been reported locally, that they were working as part of a larger national plan? >> no, what i have seen is that

they've gone silent, so many of these individuals that were the electors, one is actually the co-chair of the michigan republican party. you know, they had been quite vocal about this in the past, and i noticed that their statements seemingly have gone very, very quiet. so, i assume that they have spoken to legal representation. i don't know that for a fact. that's my speculation. but i will say that those people that were there at the capitol on december 14th that were angerly trying to force their way into the capitol and were refused by the dozens and dozens of michigan state troopers that were there, specifically for that purpose, they were some of the loudest complainers about election fraud, and yet here, it appears as though they have conspired to commit the largest case of election fraud that perhaps we've ever seen in our nation's history. >> yeah, state attorney

general -- attorneys general have really been at the forefront of some major league action in this country, and sometimes it's when they join together. and i wonder if you have considered reaching out to the attorneys general in the other six states. >> i've spoken to some of them, and i would not be surprised if they sort of followed my lead and referred their matters to the federal authorities as well. now, i think it's important for people to understand, you can bring state charges at the same time that you're bringing federal charges. there's not double jeopardy involved in that, and there are potential state charges that we could bring. i have not closed the door on that, but given the fact that it does appear to me -- i mean, you don't have to be sherlock holmes here, right, to figure out the fact that this is part of a larger conspiracy. i really do think that this is best situated for federal authorities to investigate and potentially charge. moreover, i will tell you this.

i wonder if i'm a witness in this case. i was in senate chambers on december 14th when the den/harris voters actually voted, each of them, of course, for joe biden and kamala harris. and i will tell you something. none of those 16 electors that swear that they were in the senate chambers voting at that time as the michigan constitution requires, so theoretically, i guess i could be called as a witness, as could our governor, as could our lieutenant governor, as could our secretary of state. who were also all present, and they have to be present by constitution. i was just there because i wanted to see -- i wanted to witness history. but nonetheless, again, just another reason that probably it's better for the feds to investigate this matter. i mean, i can tell you for a fact what those 16 trump electors claim to be the case

absolutely 100% is not true and there is a videotape of all the biden/harris electors actually voting, in case you don't believe me. >> so, charlie, one of the problems with sustaining national interest in a coup plot is that it requires an intimacy with the constitution and with the electoral college and all these things, but i think that you have tweeted and written about this in a way that's easy to understand. i mean, voting for the wrong electors is election fraud at the most basic level, and if it happened in the seven states that were name checked in the eastman memo, which was the, if you will, white paper or the intellectual framework for the plot to overthrow the will of the american people in november 2020, and these seven states and these republicans in seven states were simply carrying out a play being called from washington from a man who was in the oval office on january 5th, wouldn't that clearly be something in the purview of doj

to be investigating and vigorously? >> yes. well, yes. not only clearly within the purview but it's hard for me to imagine what the case would be to say that this is not a criminal act. look, there are at least five states where i think the act of forgery and fraud is just absolutely clear. it's not just michigan. it's arizona, georgia, michigan, and nevada and wisconsin. and i agree with the attorney general that this, you know, probably should be handled at the federal level, but also, look, i think that this is one of those instances where the state officials should also take an aggressive position on all this, because this can be done on a parallel -- in a parallel way. the reality is if i went in and i lied on my voter registration form or i provided false, fake information on my absentee ballot application form, i would be in a world of legal hurt, and in these cases, in at least five of these states, you had the electors who signed documents

attesting that they were the duly and elected qualified electors for president and vice president. this was false. this was fake. so, with all of this rhetoric about, you know, fake this and fake that that we hear from the former president and electoral fraud, this was electoral fraud on a massive scale. it's in black and white, and as you pointed out, it is -- it's not a one-off. it's not sort of just a side show. this was central to the plan to get vice president pence to overthrow the election. you read it in the eastman memo. you see it in some of the draft documents that were prepared by the trumpists in the department of justice, and the reality is that this clearly was coordinated from some central place, and perhaps that's the role that federal government to determine what the conspiracy was to obstruct this official proceeding, but i would hope that local district attorneys and attorney generals would not simply pass this off because

this can proceed on parallel tracks, and i think that, you know, the clock is running, whether or not we're going to hold these people accountable and this seems to me to be an open and shut case. >> madam attorney general, your response? >> oh, i agree it's an open and shut case. and you know, just because you commit a crime out in the open in front of cameras, you know, doesn't make it any less of a crime. and to me, the unbelievable part, again, if this was just political theater and they had signed this form and they wanted to go on tv and wave it around to show how much they supported the president, the former president, i should say now, then that's fine. but they transmitted these documents in a formal fashion to all of the places that the vote of the electors would normally be transmitted, right? they transmitted it to the united states senate. they transmitted it to the chief

judge of the western district of michigan, the michigan secretary of state, to the national archivist. that's how we got this information, because the national archivist rejected it. so, that's a really serious offense to try to defraud the united states government in that fashion. and absolutely, i do believe that these individuals have to be held accountable, but i will say, you know, what the doj has the ability to do that, you know, is much more difficult for a state attorney general like myself, is really to take these, i would say, lesser actors -- obviously, they played a large role in this, but you know, these orders were coming from some place else, and to -- once they find out that they're inner's trouble, which i believe all of these individuals are, to get them to flip and then, you know, to get the whole context of exactly what the plan was and to perhaps go a little bit further up the food chain. that's a lot more difficult for a state attorney general to do,

especially because i don't necessarily have jurisdiction that, of course, the department of justice has. so, i'm not saying that, you know, state attorneys general can't do this. i'm just saying that if what we're really trying to accomplish is to get the principal actors who constructed this scheme, it's going to be harder to do at the state level than it will be at the federal level. >> we will stay on it. it was an interview that caught all of our attention. i'm really grateful to you for coming back and talking to us. michigan attorney general dana nessel and charlie sykes, thank you both for spending some time with us today. when we come back, the growing threat of a russian invasion of ukraine and what the biden administration is doing to try to avoid that. d what the biden administration is doing to biden administration is doing to try to avoid that. (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health.

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first of all, there are no russian troops in ukraine. there are no russian troops in dombas. there are russian troops on the russian soil, on the russian territory next to ukrainian border. >> so, even if vladimir putin's press secretary is telling the truth there, and it's always an if, it's undeniable the drum beat sounding out from eastern europe is getting louder by the day. 100,000 russian troops wielding more and more weapons of war surround ukraine on three sides. cyberattacks, allegedly perpetrated by putin's goons, are targeting ukrainian government agencies, and accusations from the white house that russia is in the midst of engineering its own false pretext for an invasion.

while some have suggested this is a performance, a putin ploy designed to coax diplomatic concessions out of nato and the west, the fact remains ukranians from their eastern border all the way to kiev, increasingly feel as if they are on the brink. from a guest essay in "the new york times," quote, our country is not brimming with hope about a western savior or a nato rescue in the face of a russian invasion. what we want from our western partners that share our desire for us to be a true democracy, free from russia's yoke, is help in preparing for war so we might stand a chance if moscow invades. joining us, rick stengel, former top state department official, now an msnbc political analyst. so, rick, i guess first, what sources of information, what streams of information coming out of the region do you trust, and what is your assessment of what's happening right now? >> well, you set it up well, nicole, i mean, putin has a

pistol to the head of ukraine, and he's making all kinds of threats, and the u.s. doesn't have all that much leverage. i mean, what putin always bargains on is that ukraine means more to me, vladimir putin, than it does to joe biden. ukraine means more to russia than it does to the u.s. ukraine means more to russia than it even does to the european union. so, that's why he's constantly threatening ukraine. he wants to exact something for it. i think coming out of those talks last week, i think there are many opportunities for negotiation. negotiation on intermediate range missiles, which trump pulled out of that 1987 agreement. negotiations on military exercises, negotiating on the number of troops in nearby countries. i think there's lots to negotiate on and i hope, you know, putin comes to his senses, because an invasion of ukraine is a disaster. you know, it's a -- it's a

ground war in the middle of europe, and that's not something that anybody wants, and that's a prelude to even worse things. >> rick, just so people understand what we're talking about with a pistol to the head of ukraine, this is from the a.p. ukraine said sunday that russia was behind a cyberattack that defaced its government websites and alleged that russia is engaged in an increasing hybrid war against its neighbor. the statement from the ministry of digital development came a day after microsoft said dozens of computer systems at an unspecified number of ukrainian government agencies have been infected with destructive malware designed as ransomware. i mean, i guess the line that we still draw is a ground invasion, but do the ukrainians obviously feel they're already under attack, and they are? >> yes. i mean, there's a -- there's a hot war already in the donbass

region, 14,000 ukrainian have died over the last 5 years. russia has been attacking ukraine digitally with malware. there are different times when they shut off the heating in different parts of ukraine and it gets pretty darn cold there, so they are constantly under attack, and that's why it's difficult for the west to do t what putin wants. he's constantly doing a cost-benefit analysis. i mean, i always say, he's a tactician, not a strategist. i don't know that he has a plan. it always reminds me when donald trump used to say, let's see what happens. i think he's channeling vladimir putin. putin wants to see what happens, but as you mentioned that false flag operation, what he could do is he could start a maneuver, like he did in crimea in 2014, when he said russian citizens were being harassed by the authorities there, and use that as a pretext to do even more. i think it's a good thing that the biden administration exposed that. it's much better to show that in

advance and try to get them not to do it than just to react to it, so i commend them for that. >> we'll stay on it with your help. rick stengel, thank you for spending time with us today. when we come back, amid some of the more upbeat headlines about the omicron variant, why the surgeon general is warning the next few weeks could still be very difficult in a lot of places. our medical expert weighs in. l places places our medical expert weighs in ♪ this magic moment ♪ but heinz knows there's plenty of magic in all that chaos. ♪ so different and so new ♪ ♪ was like any other... ♪

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there are warnings this week. the u.s. surgeon general says we should not expect a national peak in the next few days. meanwhile, hospitals nationwide are overwhelmed by a record number of covid patients. more than 142,000, higher than the single-day peak we saw last january. but there are signs of hope of what's on the other side as parts of the northeast continue to show an early decline in cases. in new york, for example, the governor announced about 48,000 new cases on friday. sounds like a lot, but it's a 47% drop from one week earlier. let's bring in msnbc medical contributor dr. bhadelia, director of boston university's center for emerging infectious diseases policy and research. doctor bhadelia, if we're looking to the northeast as sort of a bellwether, what is, in your view, happening in the northeast? >> yeah, what we've seen, nicole, is other countries such as south africa or -- that have

been ahead of us. you see this sharp peak up. this is a really transmissible various that moves very quickly through communities and then a decline and the reason you're hearing the surgeon general give that warning is two reasons. one is that hospitalizations tend to lag, so even if -- as they're lag. even if they're decreasing in new york, they're still really quite high here in the northeast. even if the cases are plateauing, or decreasing a little bit. the other is we're a big country. peaks can occur at different times throughout the period of time. it's not happening all at the same time. the only last caveat i'll throw in there is that people change behavior when they see the news, they hear about the peak, and so if people hear now that the cases are starting to go down, will they change their behavior again while they have been indoors, so that's something else to keep in mind. >> are you seeing anything about the performance of the covid

vaccine and booster regimen that shakes your confidence in its ability to prevent severe disease and hospitalization? >> no. i mean, it is -- i want to put a fact on the table. what would have happened if we went through omicron and we did not have 62% of the country fully vaccinated? the resilience that we have. you can see that from the decoupling of what we've seen as hospitalizations in the northeast, yeah, they're high because this is such a fast-moving variant with so many infections. so even a smaller percentage of people getting infected means a lot of hospitalizations. but if we had been an unvaccinated country, a largely unvaccinated country, we would have been even worse off, what you see, for example, is numbers in new york city of 15 times difference in terms of hospitalizations of people who are unvaccinated. in most cases people were seen that are actually hospitalized

with severity of disease from covid itself, the majority of those people remain people who are unvaccinated. so absolutely not. and the resilience or the vulnerability moving forward is also people who may not have been infected and haven't been vaccinated, and those are the folks that we need to get over the line potentially get protected. >> it seems, what you just laid out applies to kids, too. there's been a lot of coverage without that context that you just provided about kids ending up sick even with omicron, which tends to act milder, perhaps, than delta in vaccinated and boosted people. but it applies to kids as well. i've looked at the hospitalization numbers every day because i have a kid, and i think there were two last week kids hospitalized who had been vaccinated, both with comorbidities. i wonder if you can speak to the ongoing reluctance to vaccinate kids between 5 and 11. >> it's heartbreaking because i think what we've seen is numbers

of kids between 5 and 11 are vaccinated. that is a ridiculously low numbers. more kids are being reached and potentially getting infected. and even though kids in general, as you say, may have lower hospitalizations, it's finding the kids who might be vulnerable, finding the kids who may end up being hospitalized. so you're seeing those numbers go up. there are kids hospitalized who are incidentally positive as well because there's just so much virus in the community that's been going on. but we don't understand the long-term impact of infection itself. so that's using those additional measures are the ways that we can keep them safe and keep schools open. >> dr. bhadelia, thank you so much for spending some time with us. it's a pleasure. quick break for us. we'll be right back. right back.

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american hero, charles mcgee flew 409 combat missions across three different wars. he was a member of the famed tuskegee airmen, a legendary group of black pilots and support staff. they were an essential part of the american plan to defeat hitler, and their success helped inspire civil rights breakthroughs in the decades that followed. mcgee who earned a bronze star for his service, told the "associated press" in the '90s, this, quote, you can say that one of the things we were fighting for was equality, equality of opportunity. we knew we had the same skills or better. we're sorry to report mcgee, one of the last living tuskegee airmen died over the weekend. in a family statement, his youngest daughter said he passed peacefully in his sleep, quote, with his right hand over his heart smiling serenely. we should all be so blessed. he was 102 years old. quick break for us. we'll be right back.

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how much can we realistically expect from organizers? is it possible to outorganize voter suppression? voter suppression? thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. happy monday. >> and happy martin luther king day to you. i am ari melber and we do have a special show including neal katyal, and our report on how the senate can actually learn from what's happening today. while we begin our broadcast here at the frederick douglass memorial bridge in washington, invoki