hi there, everyone. happy monday. 4:00 in the new york. the list of ex-trump insiders in talks with the january 6 committee grows longer by the day. former ag bill barr who enabled the worst donald trump impulses with the powers of the u.s. justice department is now talking to the committee investigating donald trump's attempts to cling to power. ex-ag once likened the department's career officials to preschoolers is talking to the committee investigating an act donald trump certainly had in the works when barr headed the doj. he broke with trump over the

election fraud delusions and drew the line at the coup attempt telling the associated press publicly what he told people privately that there was no widespread voter fraud that impacted the outcome of the 2020 election. committee charnl thompson confirmed sunday the committee is in talks with bill barr and looking at a draft executive order to allow the defense department to seize voting machines across the country. >> we had conversations with the former attorney general already. we have talked to department of defense individuals. we are concerned that our military was part of this big lie on promoting that the election was false so if you are using the military to potentially seize voting machines even though it's a discussion the public needs to know. we have never had that before

and so any of these individuals who are participating in trying to stop the election, the duly election of a president, and if we can document it we will share it with the public. >> the spokesperson telling nbc news that the panel had conversations with barr and "the washington post" adding this crucial bit of context. quote the committee's contact with barr started la year sieging more information about the tiftds of former justice department jeffly clark encouraging the department to intervene. barr's decision in december 2020 to make it clear that the doj had not found voter fraud on a level to tip the election in trump's favor a first in a series of movers to resist the campaign by trump and allies to weaponize doj in the coup attempt. that campaign a focus of the

january 6 probe. as the invest sweeps through trump word revealing new details everybody week about the involvement from everyone from ivanka trump to fox news anchors and the push to overturn election republican pushback against the january 6 probe appears to be ramping up. quote the top staff investigator on the house committee scrutinizing the january 6 attack on the capitol is fired by that state's new attorney general from the position as the top lawyer for the university of virginia from which he was on leave while working on the inquiry. the office of the virginia attorney general said the firing of the investigator was not related to the inquiry and accused him to take a move to

further donald trump's attempts to undermine the work and an incredible comment from annuity gingrich threatened the people investigating with retribution if republicans take control in the house and senate. listen. >> i think when you have a republican congress this is all going to come crashing down and the wolves find out they're sheep and are ricking jail for the laws they are breaking. >> liz cheney responded tweeting this. quote, a former speaker of the house is threatening jail time for members of congress. this is what it looks like when the rule of law unravels. that's where we start. national correspondent for politico is back. and joining us is mike schmidt.

and former senator claire mccaskill is here. mike, let's start with the reporting that looks like retribution for the role on the january 6 committee. tell us about the new ruling class in virginia. >> as i was coming out yesterday reported that timothy haffe ye removed we dug in to try to understand how normal was this for this to happen. when a new justice department comes in with a new president out united states coming in u.s. attorneys are often quickly replaced across the country. u.s. attorneys are asked to move along and new ones are nominated and put through and we said it's similar to that type of personnel move that goes on all the time with a switch in power. in virginia a new republican

attorney general has taken over but it's highly unusual for a new attorney general in virginia to come in and go to a specific university and remove the lawyer that worked there. the general counsels that work in virginia report to the attorney general. and the attorney general can remove them but as one of the attorney general's first act coming into office is that he removed haffey on leave running the january 6 investigation. the attorney general obviously knew what he was doing and who he was and the implications to send. and as you have seen as it came out that he was fired folks on the far right that understand the base, people like tom fitten who run groups like judicial

watch that sort of prey on livening up the republican far right base praised the move and have championed the move so it has sort of showed what this type of maneuver of removing someone like this so closely tied to the january 6 investigation sent a sign to the republican base about the new attorney general was and what he was doing. >> mike, you have also reported that he was close to liz cheney. talk about the team and the investigative strategy that has the trump circle freaked out. >> look. he was a democrat. he was someone that was a u.s. attorney under barack obama. donated money to all of the most

recent presidential candidates in the past few decades. he is a democrat but not a political person like many members of congress. he is not someone that i know has run for elected office. he is a prosecutor brought in to the investigation to be a former u.s. attorney who understood how complex, wide ranging probes operate and function and how they go out and gather a lot of facts and had to build out a massive team of investigators looking at everything from second slate of elect terrors created to fraud and the fund raising that came from stop the steal and raised money on a false notion to who was around trump and what was he doing? this is the quarterback behind the scenes of the investigation and he's a typical former

federal prosecutor. a democrat. but not the most overtly political person not like a member of congress. >> you take the firing of the top investigator on the january 6 committee who is as mike reports a rule of law guy. working closely with liz cheney, republican of wyoming. you take the gingrich bullying on one of the right wing networks. they're doing a lot of cage rattling and seems like they're trying to scare off anyone inclined to cooperate and doesn't want to be held in contempt of congress. why? >> i think they're afraid ultimately of what is going to be learned, what is going to come out as this committee has gotten closer and close irto the epicenter of the trump white

house including trump family members. as the investigations begin to close in on the trump organization relating to the fraud they have committed over the years i think everyone is looking for ways to distract the public's attention. annuity gingrich is embarrassing. i would ask mike if i could -- >> please. >> yeah. virginia's not a state that embraced donald trump. virginia rejected donald trump. fairly soundly. now the democrats lost in important elections a few months ago but how does this play with most of the electorate in virginia? is it getting the attention that's going to cause this attorney general and maybe the new republican governor to think twice about playing to the trump base opposed to the majority of virginia citizens?

>> so i think what's going on in virginia is that these candidates ran sort of in the hopes of not appearing too trumpian outward lay because they know that it's a light blue state. youngkin did not denounce trump but only went so far to embrace him and i think the attorney general who ran on sort of a law and order message in his position took a similar stance himself. now what i was saying before that struck me about this was how someone like tom fitten head of judicial watch reacted to this and it was a praiseworthy fashion. the former attorney general from virginia part of the trump administration praising the move, as well. and if you're a new attorney general, you have to remember in

virginia if you're governor you can't run for consecutive terms. who will run? youngkin can't run again and if you're the attorney general and a republican and young guy, what a better way to grab the national dialogue as he has right now as we talk about it than to do something like that which is sort of a freebie to the base and doesn't really cost him anything. who the general counsel is at the university of virginia i'm sure is one of thousands decisions that go on in virginia as an attorney general why what struck me was the fact that the first thing to do is remove him and a statement of the office what they said is they had reviewed some decisions and that there have been questions about the decisions as a general

counsel. that's an interesting, unusual thing to do to look at the decisions at the general counsel at a public university in virginia. so how does it play with the purple voters in virginia? i don't know. my sense in looking at the twitter traffic is on the far right it plays really well. >> i guess the far right makes me think of the jail scene in "usual suspects." bill barr making some news over the weekend not for being interviewed and providing expansive readouts but for being in talks with the committee in their words and donald trump gave an interview to the ap as being against the election conspiracies. this is how our friends reported

that scene. bill, did you say this? trump asked. yeah. i said it. how could you say that? there's no reason to have said this. you must hate trump referring to himself in the president. after hours ballot stuffing had occurred in georgia. have you been watching these hearings? barr told him no. how could you say that? how could barr state there's no widespread fraud if he didn't investigate the claims? we have looked into the things and they're nonsense barr said. barr broke doj policy making investigation. something that is very if not unethical unusual for the justice department and found

nothing and barr is telling that to tell trump at the end of the day that didn't suffice for trump. tell us what he's given the committee that others vbts. >> he knew about the communications between the doj and the white house before, on and in the immediate aftermatte of the election day. barr predicted that things had the possibility of going sideways and would be efforts of those around him coming to allegations regarding election fraud. one thing interesting about that excerpt is that it refers to allegations of fraud based out of georgia, allegations that of course were baseless and withered so barr was aware and

told trump it was nonsense. fast forward to december 16th, the date on the draft executive order which would have directed the secretary of defense to seize the voting machines. it cited theories in michigan and georgia, december 16th. by i believe december 23rd barr finished at the justice department. he was done. passed the baton to jeffrey rosen and things got crazier than before. all the way through the first few days of january chaotic days and hours in the trump presidency. barr was in the thick of it. he wasn't there through the end but he was there during much of the crazy period. "the washington post" and the story they have about this reported that select committee investigators haven't questioned barr yet about this draft

executive order. they only got the draft executive order in the last week or so and appears they were speaking to barr last year but i expect the conversations are not close to conclusion and the question will be if barr hits a wall of cooperation willing to provide to the committee so that's something to watch closely. >> this dynamic and i think the left struggles with it. john bolton dished about the events that led to donald trump's first impeachment with an extraordinarily detailed tale of seeking barr's assistance and thinking that trump had been corrupted with ukraine and turkey and maybe china, as well, to take that firsthand witness account of how trump was. is barr valuable to the committee or do you feel like

rosen's testimony to the judiciary committee and then the 1 have sh 6 committee makes the help good if you can get it but not essential? where do you put him in terms of value? >> i think he is valuable and been a coward up until now. you know? i remember when bill barr's name was floated for attorney general and a consensus on capitol hill at the time that he was normal. that he was going to be part of the guardrails. on a donald trump presidency. as it turned out he didn't do a good job on the guardrail part and then he tucked the tail and ran because he saw whafs coming. he knows what was coming and what this president had in mind for months to falsely claim that the election was fraudulent.

so bill barr goes in the same category with a lot of other republican leaders and members of the trump white house. it is not enough to walk away. it is not enough to wash your hands of it. if you love this country and the constitution and if you have any respect for the rule of law bill barr needs to say exactly what happened, when it happened and expose the level of involvement of the white house in what turned out to be an insurrection mob at the capitol on january 6. >> color me highly skeptical. my recollection of the justice department is that he repelled prosecutors from the cases of donald trump's cronies. he scolded his own career workforce. does he want to rewrite his tenure and legacy as being a

laund guy? what does he want? >> i don't know what he wants. i think in some ways the barr story has -- is a more complicated story than we think in terms of in the end trump was really upset with him because he wouldn't go to the lengths he wanted him to go to. up until that point barr did things that trump really wanted. around michael flynn and the dropping of that case and stuff related to the russia investigation. what does barr want? i'm not sure. i think he's clearly disillusioned with trump. he obviously think that is trump went way, way, way too far in this thing. has it manifest itself? i don't think he's looking for another job. writing a book. has a title on it that seems to

be forthcoming a book about all these problems to confront with this president and i don't know. would bill barr testify publicly? i think the last thing these guys want to happen to them is to be used against the left. if they see that politically as something that bothers them and don't want to help democrats in the midterm elections and see in it a political lens, especially the pence people. >> i thought of bill barr seeing dick cheney talking about the floor of the house not being recognizable. i wondered if bill barr might be someone that thinks about what the likes of dick cheney think of him why what does he want from bill barr? >> a key focus that cheney brought to the commit tee is the erosion of norms surrounding law

enforcement. bill barr would be the first phone call to make to try to assess what type of pressure trump was putting on the justice department. there's a really interesting symmetry coming to trump's presidency and the relationships with the attorneys general. jeff sessions appointed to be the most loyal of the loyalists made a decision recusing from supervising the russia probe. that resulted in the appointment of special counsel robert mule every and the rest is history. again at the very front of trump's presidency. and then in this final, final month or two we have a parallel move from barr who before the election day chaos rolled out was arguably the singlemost loyal and helpful member that trump had had in his cabinet

over the course of the presidency and then in the final weeks barr comes forward saying that the allegations of vote irfraud are baseless and a decision that had immense consequence for the way that people more -- particularly some republicans on capitol hill viewed the allegations that the president was making. that statement was not enough to move the majority of the republican party's voters coming to the facts about what happened on election day and shows just how much trouble despite the efforts trump had with justice department during his time in office. >> such interesting analysis. the read on what his value would be and then the intersection of what he might want. it's like a rodney dangerfield for the title. and then what liz cheney looking at to salvage a piece of that

rule of law. so grateful to have all of you. when we come back, the wife of conservative justice clarence thomas is a vocal activist. she works with groups to find themselves in front of the united states supreme court. from affirmative action to gun rights and now the ties to the instigators at the come. there is extensive brand new reporting in "the new yorker" that put it is question to everyone. is jenny thompson tarnishing the impartiality of the supreme court? plus football fans on the program today. i will not name names. suffice to say the first name we won't discuss what many call the best weekend of nfl football until later in the show but will get to it. president biden meeting last hour with european leaders on

what looks like the very real possibility of something of russian military action in ukraine. john kirby is our guest on that. the news that 8,500 u.s. troops putt on heightened alert. all those storieses and guests and more after a quick break. stay with us. a quick break stay with us dry eye symptoms driving you crazy? inflammation might be to blame. time for ache and burn! over the counter eye drops typically work

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they say durable is the new black. i prefer you didn't. okay, no one says that. but, it's true. just ask sharon. after three years these barstools

still look brand new. even with these crazy lovebirds. [ squak ] alright i'll take the barstools! you can keep the birds. okay. y'all gotta hear this next one. kevin holds all my shirts and shorts. he even stuck with me through a cross country move. yeah, i named my dresser kevin. wow! i need a kevin that holds all my clothes. alright. i am sold. some news from the supreme court today. the judges have agreed to hear arguments on affirmative action cases with harvard and unc.

the fate of race programs is now in the hands of the newly conservative supermajority. it is not unrelated to the supreme court story of jenny thomas wife of clarence thomas. in "the new yorker" the website lists the national association of scholars filing a brief in the lawsuit against harvard among the quote endorsed charities and one of the striking number of conservative pressure groups that she has garnered leadership roles within or support from and a time a close political associate solved in cases before her husband and also flags the denouncing of the committee investigating the january 6 insurrection. the public support of the rioters saying she wrote the posts before the violence and the close ties to instigators of

the coup plot among them john east marn, mark meadows, stewart roads and aly alexander. from which her husband was perhaps coinbase dentdally the lone supreme court justice to signal last week to have blocked access to all of donald trump's records going from the national archives to the january 6 committee. joining us is washington correspondent for "the new yorker" and the story in the magazine this week. a treat to talk to you. your stories are incredible. so detailed and specific. i want to dive in and drive the control room out of order and ask you first about how prolitch -- prolific to put

things in writing and about things that could be before her husband. >> thank you. it's great to be able to join you. it is an extraordinary situation. i don't think we have seen anything like it in the history of the supreme court. you have a wife of a justice so tangled up in the explosive issues that are right before her husband's court and actually aligned herself with the activists who are bringing the suits in many, many different ways that i lay out in the story but for instance the fist xarm today is kind of mind boggling. jenny thomas is on the advisory group of the national association of scholars and filed a brief in this case that the court took up today to challenge the affirmative action

rules and there's the wife of the supreme court justice on one of the organizations involved in it on taking on a side. any other court, a lower court and either the judge would have to recuse or the brief would be struck or there will be a basically outcry and would have to back off. it is not the kind of behavior that's allowed in this country except at the supreme court that polices the ethics and no way to do anything about it unless you impeach a justice which is something that's not been attempted since 1804. i don't think we are likely to see that but it is incredible and at a time when the polls show esteem for the supreme court is at an all-time low because many americans think it

is too politicized and think so for reasons like this an a supreme court justice's wife is involved with the extreme groups. >> it is not like anyone suggesting that both people in a marriage can't have careers in politics or activism but she is all over as you have reported out the fringe yex elements on the right. i want to read the reportings about the vetting for purity in the trump white house. america is in a vicious battle for finding principles and the deep state is serious and resisting president trump and declared the adversaries were trying to kill people and may we all have guns and concealed carry to handle what's coming. in a session of the council for national policy the senior

director of policy described meeting weekly with ground swell members to vet officials for disloyalty saying jenny is instrumental in working with the white house and the tip of the spear. all white houses vet applicants, they look at college drug use and check references but i have never heard of anything like this. explain. >> i interviewed people in the trump white house that she got to meet with the president because of who her husband was and when she got there she handed a list of if heads she would like to see lopped off, the people she didn't think are far enough right basically and not trumpy enough and so she instead wanted people fired and a friend put in instead and a

thing that's interesting is a person that worked in the white house and attended this meeting with former president trump said that he regarded her as a wacka. but it's not a -- which is amusing and really -- the situation is not so funny. the court needing to respect the supreme court of the country is something that's really important. we need to think there's justice. that it will be justice for whether you are a democrat or a republican. that it's not just all political and the rule of law counts in this country and what it holds together. many of the judicial ethics experts who are nonpartisan themselves are outraged. one of them who's a professor at

nyu law school, a gold standard on this subject, he said what she is a reprehencible and guessed that if you could ask the justices what they all thought that all eight would wish this to stop but there's not really much they can do about it. >> can i read you one more sort of avenue of your reporting that's startling? the role pertaining to january 6 both on the day of and in targeting and attacking viciously liz cheney and adam kinzinger. quote watched the crowd today. and then c-span. god bless each of you. standing up or praying. and then she wrote a letter, her group wrote a letter seeking to

have kevin mccarthy remove liz cheney and adam kinzinger. a current member told me that she is part of the group because she is married to clarence. asking to have the name withheld because he said she is volatile and the best word to describe her is tribal. you are part of the group or the enemy. this volatile and edgy person is now calling the shots with mccarthy about stripping them of their committee assignments. does she hold sway with mccarthy? >> the thing is, i can tell you from interviewing people, clarence thomas and true of any of the justices have unbeliefible power in this country. people were afraid to say

anything on the record about it because these are enormously powerful people, the supreme court justices, and nobody wants to be seen crossing the wife of one but they're appalled. for instance that bit you just quoted from the letter she signed basically saying that the january 6 congressional select committee is illegitimate and no right to question people. that was the issue that was in front of the court right as she was speaking out on it. publicly. it was the issue that her husband was hearing about whether or not that committee had the access to the former president trump's papers and will hear more. so it's a thumb on the scale in a way that seems entirely inappropriate to anybody who looks closely at it.

>> even just her role in writing the letter and the singular dissent just next to each other have the hallmarks of more examples that people that lost confidence in this court have more evidence to be skeptical. we'd like to ask you to stay and bring in some friends on the other side. >> thank you. >> stay with us. we'll be right back. right back. i felt all people saw were my uncontrolled movements. some mental health meds can cause tardive dyskinesia, or td, and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. ingrezza is a prescription medicine to treat adults with td movements in the face and body. it's the only treatment for td that's one pill, once-daily, with or without food.

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we're back with more from jane's new reporting on the talking, walking conflict of interest that's ginni thomas. she says in 2018 when justice thomas and four colleagues upheld donald trump's muslim ban he did so without revealing his wife was paid $200,000 by a group that submitted a brief to the court in favor of the ban. judges are required to report the source of the income but failed to mention the payments from the group and put down a curiously low book value for the lobbying firm claiming it was

worth $15,000 and $50,000. we are back with tim miller and claire is still with us. jane, we talked about some of this is structural but there's been so much despair and it is not just on the left. even on the right. chief justice roberts despaired the low e steam which the court is held? 40% hold the court in high esteem. is there any sense or any reaction to the reporting to do something different in terms of the bare minimum disclosing a justice's spouses involvement in cases before did court? >> i think there may be a push for reform. there have been attempts in

congress to have a code to adhere to like the judicial ethics code that the rest of the judges have to adhere to. i think that's a live effort to do that and precisely because of this flagrant behavior that people feel there's a need for that and an effort to close the loopholes. i never realized until i did this story there's a wide open loophole there where basically if a justice's spouse opens a company that they can take clients who can pay an unlimited amount of money and not have to be disclosed. all the wife has to do is say they were paid by the company that they run and don't have to say who the clients are so any kind of outside interest to hand a pile of money to a spouse of a supreme court justice and we

would not know about it. >> claire? >> yeah. we're touching on reform at the supreme court and i think the talk of the reform is focused on how many justices there are and maybe term limits and not enough on the ethics piece. you just referenced it is discussed more widely now. i don't think people realize that it's the wild west at the supreme court of the money flowing into litigation. have you had a chance to get into that? shelton whitehouse has taken a look at the briefs and the funding of briefs, where that money is coming from and how it may be flowing to people like ginni thomas. >> absolutely. and when i interview some of the experts on this there's a

political scientist that studies the briefs and said it's exploding. basically the court has become what congress was. it is where the lobbyists are pushing the issues because they decide so many important issues in the land right now and unlike congress the disclosure is lousy so that the public can't follow the money at the court. there are tons of these outside groups that are hiding the hands and again putting the fingers on the scales of justice. >> we have been covering the court more vigorously since the former president trump put his fingerprints on it.

i wonder if you can speak to the long tail of republicans against an activist court. the court has decided to take up these abortion cases why the court decides what it takes up and this court very committed to taking up the most divisive issues in the land. >> totally. and the thing is that -- >> jane, let bring tim in. i'm sorry. >> sure. >> that's okay. great reporting, by the way. sorry to talk orr you. there's a long liberal majority on the court that i think the republicans and conservatives always talk about judicial restraints. we don't want the court making proactive decisions. now that the conservative majority on the court conveniently a lot of folks, not everyone, some traditional people with conservative judicial philosophies and political actors that are

putting the shoe on the other foot saying it is time for a conservative court and the liberal justices need to understand there's an imbalance here and while a lot of the sort of liberal side of the court is abiding to longstanding norms and how the court should work and with ruth bader ginsburg saying until her unfortunate death. on the other side clarence thomas not abiding by court norms as jane reported. mitch mcconnell inventing the norms necessary to argue the position to put preferred justices on the court and creating an advantage for the right and there are a lot of institutions, a lot of special interests on the right pushing

the justices to go further to take advantage of that. ginni thomas is a brazen example. >> neither responded to the questions for the piece. they haven't responded to nbc news about the reaction to the piece. i wonder if any of the justices or anyone close to the justices has responded since it has been published? >> um, not in a way that i would know. i've love to know what te really think. i'm glad to say nobody has denied the piece. neither clarence thomas nor his wife have spoken to it. >> i think, and i don't mean -- i could see reaction on the other end with this heightened alarm from the chief justice and others of how it is perceived. your piece offers fresh evidence of why that may be. it is an incredible piece of

reporting. thank you so much. i appreciate you spending so much of the hour with us. thank you so much. jim and claire are sticking around. we'll be right back. >> thank you. we'll be right back. >> thank you looking to get back in your type 2 diabetes zone? once-weekly ozempic® can help. ♪ oh, oh, oh, ozempic®! ♪ ♪ oh, oh, oh ♪ ozempic® is proven to lower a1c. most people who took ozempic® reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. and you may lose weight. adults lost on average up to 12 pounds.

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>> 30 yards to win the game. he boots it through. >> it was an incredible weekend of football. there is the reason they're calling it the best in the 102 year history of the nfl for unforgettable playoff games decided in the final seconds. the crown jewel was this weekend. claire tell us what happened. >> holy cow, what a game. i noticed that we have had a little lame joe burros jersey in the background of tim's shot so i brought mahomes in to back me up on this. there has never been a quarterback like patrick mahomes and he's going to show it on sunday against the bengals. >> tim, would you like to respond? this is equal opportunity television. >> well, burrow is definitely going to have a tough job? kansas city. no doubt about that. but i was happy about my man to get the afc championship and as

a long time broncos fan, anybody but the chiefs for me and i guess my final thought is i just feel so bad for all of those conservatives like eric trump who said they were quitting the nfl because the players were just too woke and they're fighting for social justice and it was ruining the fun of the sport. they really missed out this weekend. who would have thought that liberals would have gotten the nfl in the culture war. >> i was happy for my 49ers. claire, i think that we are reveling in sort of the thrill of the games and i think they gave people some respite from everything else that is going on. talk about just the import right now. >> yeah, i really do think, i mean this is fun. it is just fun. and it is important in this country that there are things that we could all agree on and that is while the nfl has its problems and some of them are big, this football weekend was really fun. and i don't care, that is the thing that was so sad about aaron rodgers, it really

injected such a political thing in something i would like to see politics free. i think this t should be all about butker making that kick with four seconds left on the clock to send us into overtime. >> and it all started with my 49ers having their first great ending of the weekend. >> i want 49ers to win too. go 49ers. >> i needed to get that there in. the needle and injection puns. sorry aaron rodgers, not sorry. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a very short break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. ...and lab tests. - wow. - uh-huh. plus, $0 copays on tier 1 & tier 2 prescription drugs. - wow. - uh-huh. unitedhealthcare medicare advantage plans. including the only plans with the aarp name. most plans have a $0 premium. take advantage now. wow!

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we're not sitting still. even as we are engaged in diplomacy and dialogue. we're building up defense, we're building up deterrence. we've provided to ukraine more security assistance this year than in any previous year. we've rallied allies and partners around the world. we are preparing massive consequences for russia. if it invades ukraine again. >> hi, again, everyone, it is 5:00 in new york with russian military action in ukraine looking like a very real possibility. the united states is making sure all of the options are on the table and that means all systems must be at the ready. the defense department announcing this afternoon that 8,500 u.s. troops are being put on high alert. here is pentagon spokesperson john kirby on that this afternoon. >> as the president has said, even as we continue to prioritize diplomacy and dialogue, we must also increase readiness and in support of the on ligations to the security and defense of nato and the security of citizen as broad at the direction of the president and

following recommendations made by secretary austin, the united states has taken steps to heighten the readiness after forces at home and abroad so they are prepared to respond to a range of contingencies, including support to the nato response force if it is activated. all told, the number of forces that the secretary has placed on heighten alerted comes up to about 8,500 personnel. i want to reinforce that as of now, the decision has been made to put these units on higher alert and higher alert only. no decisions have been made to deploy any forces from the united states at this time. >> the pentagon's announcement follows reporting over the weekend that president biden is weighing the deployment of thousands of troops to eastern europe and the baltics, "the new york times" said it would signal a major pivot from the administration out of fear of provoking russia into invading.

the concern that military action could be close, also evidence in the state department advisory that americans should leave ukrainian and in the case of family members, ordering them to depart the country. the united states is not alone in ratcheting up the pressure against russia. as reported by the a.p., tensions soared monday between russia and west with nato outlining potential troop and ship deployment, britain saying it would withdraw in diplomats from kyiv announcing russian war games off the coast as unwelcome. the alliance statement summed up individual member countries but restraining them on the nato banner aimed at showing the alliances' resolve. the escalating tensions with russia is where we start this hour. joining us now is john kirby, thank you so much for being with us. can you just tell us the latest.

i know the president spent an hour and 20 minutes on the call with leaders. can you give us any information of anything that has changed since that call? >> well, i don't know if thinking has changed since that call. but clearly it is important for us to actually be involved in consultations with our allies and partners which we're doing here at department of defense. what we've seen outside of the call itself, nicolle, is we have seen the russians continue to add forces in the western part of their country and into belarus. they continue to add over the last few days, so there has been no sign that the russians are considering de-escalating or taking tensions down. quite the contrary. >> can you confirm or elaborate on the time description as a pivot for the administration consider troop deployment. >> i don't know if i would call it a piv yots. we have a force there on the

continent. but this does show an increasingly obvious course of action which is to make sure that we are ready and that we are bolstering the capabilities of our nato allies who are watching with equal concern what the russians are doing outside of ukraine and belarus. so i don't know if i call it a pivot, you could see an increased sense of concern by the administration and by our nato allies. >> let me show you something that colonel vindman said on this program on friday. >> i think that the offensive, what we will see will be on that -- that is going to be the biggest military offensive in europe since world war ii in europe. i'm very prepared to just flat out state that we are on the cusp of war. and more than likely than not there will be a major war in ukraine. and the reason i say that is that even since these diplomatic negotiations have unfolded, the

rhetoric and the actions have further progressed down that road. i hope to god i'm wrong. but i'll willing to go is a head and raise this alarm, put my credibility on the line to make sure that people are paying attention. this government is paying attention to take the appropriate actions now. >> john, would you agree with anything he said, disagree with anything he said. and can you be specific. >> well there is no reason for this to come to out right con flick. there is no reason to be another land war in europe. and that is why we want to continue to pursue a diplomatic path forward. we don't believe that vladimir putin has made a final decision to launch yet another invasion or incursion into ukraine. we still think there is time and space for diplomacy. secretary blinken was out yesterday talking about that extra time and space think we might have. but here at department of defense, this is bolstering nato and making sure we could meet our commitms to our nato allies

when they need us to do that. so that is what our focus is here. but there is no reason for this to have to come into outright conflict. we still believe there is a diplomat path forward. >> i want to ask you about the stakes and they've been described by other folks who have worked in government as being ones that will be read around the world about america's resolve as it pertained to china and taiwan and sort of going down the line. and drawing say direct line between the exit from afghanistan. i wonder if you could speak to those concerns. >> yeah, i think this is to some degree driving a stake through a straw man. these are all different situations and anybody who would question our resolve and our commitment to our nato allies, i think can look no further than the simple decisions that we've made here today. to place additional 8500 troops on heightened alert in case they are needed to be part of the nato response force itself.

so we're very committed to. this this is a treaty alliance. we take our article 5 commitment seriously, that is an attack on one is an attack on all. and i think this is a very strong symbol of our strength and our commitments in the security space. >> bolster, are you ruling out that american troops could fight alongside our allies? define bolster for me. >> this is about adding capabilities to the eastern flank of nato if and when they want it. again, we're not deploying troops right now. but if and when they want additional capabilities so if they do need to defend themselves, we as an alliance will be defending each other. that is what this is about. we hope it doesn't come do that. of course. but if mr. putin has designed beyond ukraine, if he intends to threaten the nato alliance, we want to make sure we are doing everything that we can to make sure that doesn't happen and our alliance martners could defend themselves. so some of the options could be sending additional forces from

on the european continent into eastern flank nations, we're considering that as well. >> you could speak directly to military families about what heightened alert means exactly. and even in nonmilitary families. how many of that 8,500 could be deployed if you go to the next step, what is the timeline and what should those families know and be prepared for? >> so some of the units that we are notifying today are already on what we call a short tether. perhaps some of them are on ten days prepare to deploy. so they're already in a heightened readiness posture and they're families know they could get the call at any time. we're going to shorten that posture from ten days to five days in some of the cases. some the units that we are talking about today aren't on that fast tether, ten days and so we want to give them extra time to get ready to go in about a week's time. that is going to take a longer period of time for some ruinities to reach that five-day

capability and for some it won't take quite that long and we're not announcing the units because of the families. we want to make sure that these units have proper time to not only notify their troops, but to notify their families, too. that they're going to be on a little bit of a heightened alert posture. is just means that you're ready to go a little bit faster than you normally would and that includes maybe maintenance on vehicles, making sure you have the logistics ands supplies and a full sea bag ready to go in case you get that call. so it is really about making sure that the families too could prepare for what could be a little bit faster deployment schedule than what they might have been thinking about before. >> you have a straw plan to draw any direction between the path america takes vis-a-vis vladimir putin. many analysts who served in democratic administrations with you have made comparisons. are te unfair? >> i think, look, these are two completely different scenarios. we're committed to the one china

policy, we have made that very clear. it is been committed to by bipartisan administrations for more than the last 20 years. and that includes making sure that we can help taiwan defend itself through the taiwan relations and nothing will change to make sure that taiwan could continue to defend itself. if it is a comparison, it is not perfect but we're also prying to help kraib ukraine defend itself. we delivered another three sets of packages and arms and material to help ukrainian forces and there is more to come and we'll talk about that in coming weeks for sure. >> i want to share some washington post reporting with our viewers and then just ask you to speak about in terp terms of your department's counter parts in our allies nations about the sort of collaboration. but let me just share this. this is from "the washington post" over the weekend. europe's three biggest powers,

germany france and britain have sharply divergent approaches while having distractions. other lines are lining up according to their proximity to russia and dependence for energy supplies an the "new york times" reported over the weekend about a british intelligence that suggested that russia was prepared to install a pro-russian lead. you could talk about the united states role at the white house level and the pentagon level of playing that coordinating role with the allies. >> that is a big part of what we've been doing over the last couple of weeks, nicolle. is constantly consulting and speaking with our nato allies about what we're see on the ground, what we're seeing russia do and getting their perspective about what they are seeing and what they think might happen. so the secretary had numerous conversations with his counterparts with that as well as other members of the administration. they may see things differently than we do and that is okay. that is why you have an alliance and have friends so you could

continue to talk about these things. but what is pretty clear to us at the defense department is that our nato allies share the level of concern that we have and don't want to see another incursion into ukraine. and certainly are interested in looking at capabilities to bolster their defensive posture around, particularly around the eastern flank. and you're seeing allies doing similar things. talking about moving their forces an sending security assistance to ukraine. the brits announced this a couple of days ago. so we're seeing the alliance come together here and understand the gravity of the situation that we're in. >> i want to read one more thing that is part of the weekend of coverage that built up to some of the angst that you experienced in your briefing which we watched closely today. it is from fiona hill who said this, this time putin's aim is bigger than closing nato's open door to ukraine and take more territory, he wants to evict the

united states from europe. after analyzing his moves, hi actions are purposeful and his choice of this moment to through down the gauntlet in ukraine in very intentional. right now all signs indicate that putin will lock the u.s. into an endless tactical game, take nor chunks out of ukraine and exploit all of the frictions and fractures in nato and the european union, getting out of the crisis requires acting not reacting and they node engage russia on the west terms not just moscows. would you describe what the pentagon is doing is acting or reacting. >> it is both. and it should be both. we are acting in terms of making sure we have troops that are ready to go if needed. it is acting in terms of consultations with allies and making sure that we're sharing our perspectives about what we're seeing and where things are going. and it is absolutely active in terms of coordination with other nato allies about the things they're doing on the ground. but yeah, there is reacting here

too, because we're still trying to figure out where we are in the decision space with vladimir putin. it is not exactly clear what his intentions are, tactic ll with respect to ukrainian and so we don't believe he's made a final decision we want to makesure there is a diplomatic pack. the sect believed that bases on what we've been seeing over the last several days through the course of the weekend that this was a prudent step forward. and i'll tell you one more thing about what miss hill wrote and i read it and she's incredibly brilliant when it comes to all things russia. there is not going to be any pushing the united states out of europe. we have a very sizable force posture there. we are committed to our nato allies there. the united states is going to remain in europe at the invitation of our guests and our hosts there to ensure that we could meet our security commitments on the european continent. >> i imagine there is a whole lot going on there today. and i appreciate you taking the

time to talk to us. pentagon press secretary john kirby, thank you for starting us off this hour. we're grateful. >> my pleasure. when we come back, much more on the standoff with russia over ukraine. our panel joins you with reaction and what russia may be planning and what vladimir putin may be thinking. and later the calls are growing to prosecute the fake electors who signed false documents in seven states declaring trump the victor, even though he was the loser and joe biden won and they knew it. the attorney general of one of those states will be our guest later in the hour. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. continues after a quk icbreak. stay with us

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there are more details on the stunning revelation from the u.k. government as they try to de escalate russia's aggression in ukraine. "new york times" report that saturday that the kremlin was developing plans to install a pro-russian leader in ukraine and already choeszen a potential candidate as vladimir putin weighs whether to order the russian forces amassed on ukraine's border to attack. quote, the information being released today shines a light on the extent of russian activity designed to subvert ukraine and an insight. kremlin thinking. that is liz trusk who said that in a statement. quote, russia must de escalate and in its campaign of aggression and disinformation and pursue a path of diplomacy. let's bring in michael crowley and ben rhodes, the former deputy national security advise

tore president obama and katie kay is here, msnbc contributor. all know a whole lot about this part of the world and vladimir putin. michael, i start with you. that was from mark lander's reporting about the ux k. tell me what the sense it right now about both of what john kirby stressed that we're ready for anything and that we are playing a coordinating function with the allies. >> well, nicolle, i think we have to be a little bit realistic about this. of course the administration has a line that it wants to present, we're in coordination with our allies and they're meeting and talking constantly and pledging they're on the same page. but the reality is what president biden admitted in his press conference last week, there are differences of opinion. europe stands to lose more from an economic war in essence with russia than we do. europe is more integrated and depends on russia for energy and

it is more reluctant to escalate. having said that, the europeans are not feckless about this and they want to deter president putin but i think there is never going to be perfect unity and corridor flation on this so the administration is doing the best it can. these troop, this talk of troop deployment to eastern europe is i think it probably a useful way of reminding vladimir putin the more that he men as ukrainian, the konger and more unified nato is likely to become. it bolsters nato, that may be a good thing. i just think that the administration still has to figure out exactly how it is going to hangle the fate of ukraine itself and this isn't the answer yet. >> katie, what kind of, on the positive and negative, what kind of reviews is the united states getting that point for its stewardship of the crisis? >> russia wants u.s. involvement in this.

and europe is divided. so it has to be that the stewardship of this comes from washington and i think there is broad recognition that is what is happening. emmanuel macron has suggested the e.u. should have sideline talks or have its own talks with moscow and that is been taken into something as a snub but i think this is what the french president would suggest. the real stumbling block in europe at the moment is the divisions within the european union countries and the nato members and that is really germany. there has to be pressure and focus on germany if the u.s. wants to have the german, the new german government on board. it is testing a lot of fractious moments because you have a new government in germany, you have macron who is heading into elections and boris johnson who is in a whole heap of leadership problems of his own back in the u.k. and this is the kind of situation that suits vladimir putin very well. >> and that, ben, seems to be

fiona hill's point, this is a moment of russia's choosing and almost a warning that we can't be reacting and the united states and our allies have to act. is that fair? >> it is definitely fair. i mean it is just the reality that vladimir putin is the one who precipitated this crisis. and think what the administration is doing today is trying to shore up nato. let's be clear about what the troop deployments are. we dealt with this in 2014. the united states has very sizable military resources in countries like germany. we have not had a lot of american troops present in the baltics bordering russia and poland. and what those countries want more than any other capability is just the presence of american troops. because they believe that russia is far less likely to continue its aggression into nato countries if they know that there are americans there. that america will be more likely to fight if russia attacks their country and there are american

forces present. so this is a defensive maneuver. but it is also an effort to send a message to putin that, look, if you continue your aggression, your objective is to get america out of europe but on the contrary you're briefing up the american presence along the eastern flank, and keep in mind ukraine is not a member of nato. so it is both reactive in the sense of trying to reassure very nervous nato allies on russian borders but it also in some sense sending an action that putin's actions are inviting a greater american presence that border russia, not the opposite. >> ben, what would you your advice be to this team as you said, this is something that the president you worked for and your team dealt with in president biden's term. >> i think he really does need to get the alliance on the same page and cati is right. if our greatest response is

economic, the most important player in europe is germany. and then in 2014 when we needed to bring european as with sanctions to try to deter putin at that point, the absolutely essential relationship between president obama and chancellor merkel. the europeans do not want to impose these sanctions. it will hurt them more than us, as michael said. that is exactly right. so what it is going to take is a personal relationship with a new german chancellor to be very clear, we have to know, what are we doing in response to further russian invasion of ukraine. are you going to cancel the nord stream two pipeline, are we going to have a broader sanction oun russian energy sectors which is not just going to hurt europe abs, it will hurt us as well. but right now there is a sense on the lever of sanctions which is our most important lever to pull to deter put inand there is

a different view in paris and london and washington. and so the most thrnt thing you could do is signal we've come to an agreement and be specific about what the consequences are. that is your only chance to effect vladimir putin calculus before he takes whatever action he's going to take. >> michael, ben mcfaul in the obama white house and administration, made the points that the stakes are nothing short of our standing until the world. that china will watch in terms of its calculations on taiwan and other wise. is that the sense you get in covering this administration, or is it more narrow in their view? >> well, look, i think it is a really compelling and interesting argument. it flows into part from the idea that much of the world, not everyone, saw our exit from afghanistan as being a kind of a capitulation, it obviously ended in a messy fashion. it was an embarrassment for the united states.

even if you can debate whether it could have been handled better, it looks terrible and i think there was a sort of vibe not to be glib about it that america was sort of in retreat and weakened. the state department, biden officials generally vehemently reject this idea and they say that actually the united states is in a stronger position because we're out of afghanistan and we're not tied down in this expensive distracting quagmire. but i think the reality is there. there is a sense that america has turned inward. the trump administration is over. but there are still a lot of questions about whether america first is a kind of long lasting ideology that is going to shape american foreign policy for many years to come and people are watching to see how hard president biden digs in. how much political capital he's willing to invest in this standoff with vladimir putin. ar whether there is a sense in america that we have too many of our problems at home to deal

with and we're just not going to put as much skin in the game and in foreign policy as we did even as recently as the obama years and of course the bush years. so i think that it is a really big test in that sense. it is people that are going to divine a lot about the future of american foreign policy from the way this plays out. >> and in this administration's defense, president biden has sought engage the allies and adversaries since the get-go. but people who watch russian media describe clips of tucker carlson played night after night on fox news. how emboldened is vladimir putin. >> look, even today, you've got moscow responding to the fact that the u.k. and the u.s. are pulling their diplomats out of ukraine. and needling in a statement that has been put out from the government, needling the divisions between all of the different nato allies. they like nothing better than to

see nato divided and that is exactly what they've gotten and whenever they could take the chance they will do. i do think there is an important test here for american leadership and for what russia does next. it is a really good essay by the british defense minister ben wallace in the last couple of days where he talks about the fact that is not just about nato, this is about russia's sense of nationalism and expanding to the people that vladimir putin thinks should be part of russia. and he ends the essay saying this is not just about ukraine, you have to look at what comes next. and that is why this is such a big test for this administration. and it is why people say it is not just about one country, ukrainian, it is about potentially about taiwan, it is potentially about astonia or romania or poland and that is very serious. >> and i'll continue to call on all three of you. thank you so much for being part of our coverage. when we come back, josh shapiro

on what should be done about those fake electors in several key battleground states. who tried to declare joe biden's victory for the zis graced ex president. you know, the one who lost. that is next. u know, the one wht u know, the one wht that is next ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪[music]♪ at aetna® we're shifting medicare coverage ♪ ♪

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there is also reporting about the attempt to seat fraudulent electors. is that something you ever worked on or would support for example in michigan.

>> that is so funny. it is not fraudulent electors, it is alts nat electors. yes i was part of the process to make sure there were alternate electors for when we hope the challenges to the seated would be heard and be successful. everything that was done, was done legally by the trump legal team according to the rules and under the leadership of rudy giuliani. >> waving the rudy flag, you know what they say. we have all been at this long enough to recognize the patern when we see it. a recurring process whereby trump and officials first deny wrongdoing only to smugly admit to it days or weeks later and ultimately brag about it. rachel maddow and her team have kept us up to date and the coverage led by rudy giuliani to put forward fraudulent slates of electors in seven swing states. incidentally, or maybe not as outlined by john eastman.

electors falsely declared a trump victory by signing their names to five similarly worded domes suggesting they were the duly elected and qualified electors. but in the final two states, new mexico and pennsylvania, republicans added caveats to their certificates, hedging their words to make sure the alternate slate would benl be valid if trump's court challenges were successful. and did that decision to alter the language potentially save those republicans from criminal skrutdinny. joining us now, pennsylvania attorney general josh shapiro. mr. attorney general, your thoughts on first the broughter fake electors story and dynamic as an investigator, what strikes you about the fact that the seven states called for in the eastman memo turn out to be the seven that send in fake electors? >> i think they're doing real damage to our democracy.

it is something that you and i have talked about many times. and, look, what i think the story is here is that these are people who are willing to trade away what makes america special, for their own power. and that this is lie that it taking time and resources away from doing the important work of our democracy, of solving the real problems facing the people in pennsylvania and across this country, from covid to how we educate our kids to the economy, it is doing real damage. it is really dangerous. and they clearly have no legal leg to stand on, as you said in your lead-up here. they're waving the rudy giuliani flag and any time you have to wave the rudy giuliani flag, you're losing your legal argument. >> as did he in pennsylvania many, many times. i just want to press you though. there is a sense from people who watch doj that it is the rioters, not the folks who crafted the conspiracy and brought people to washington who are paying a price and being

charge and prosecuted. there is a sense with the fake elector we're focused on the fake elector but the person who put that plan in motion is not anyone sitting out there in any of the states that put their name on those fraudulent documents. what is your sense about the pace of justice and accountability for those folks? >> i think there has to be justice and accountability for the folks who led the effort, who brought this big lie into our institutions of democracy. it is why i've gone to court multiple times to seek sanctions against the lawyers who lied in court. and by the way, we're very proud of the fact that rudy giuliani can no longer practice law in part because of our efforts to hold him accountable. they need to be held to account. here if pennsylvania, the situation was slightly different. as you pointed out. through their i guess their

rhetoric and policy was intentionally misleading. and purposely damaging to our democracy. but based on our review, and the fact that they put conditional language on the documents of the fake elector here in pennsylvania, we don't believe that those fake electors here in pennsylvania met the legal standard for forgery. now the federal government could look at the five other states and make their determination and i believe there should be accountability for those who engaged in unlawful conduct at ground level and those who coordinated it at the top. >> there is atory in "the new york times" about a brand-new attorney general, this one in virginia reaching deep into his state's university system and firing a general counsel. the story gets weird when you learn what that person does. he's on leave from that job and he's the lead investigator for the january 6 committee. mr. halfy is his nape. what is your sense as an attorney general of whether

reaching in and changing a general counsel at university in the pennsylvania university system, would that be something you would do in week one? >> never. that seems highly inappropriate. and i'm not an expert on the powers of the virginia attorney general, but also it seems well beyond the scope of his authority. and it just is dangerous to be injecting yourself in to institutions of higher education that way. that certainly is not something i would do and certainly wouldn't do it in that manner. but again, this is the modern day republican party. that individual ran on a platform of the big lie. beholden to the former president. and now is conducting himself in an unbelievably important office in a manner that is eroding people's faith in our institutions and in our democracy. it is very, very dangerous. it issiy these elections matter. and why standing up for our democracy is so critical. >> does the hangover from the big lie and the frantic efforts

in pennsylvania to overturn a sizable victory for joe biden, does it have an impact as you go about campaigning for governor in. >> no question. i see it and feel it when i'm out and about every single day. pennsylvanians are worried about a lot right now. we talk ed about this before. from the covid to the economy to educating our kids. they shouldn't have to worry about you are the instability of our democracy and i think pennsylvanians recognize with the failure of the united states senate to act to defend our democracy, that so much of that battle is going to go on here. and that there is a responsibility that they bear both as the place that birth our democracy, and now the place that is going to have to keep perfecting it going forward and protecting it going forward. so i hear about it every day in my travels. i think it is also important that, and i think people

understand this, that in order to make progress on those issues that matter to people, day in and day out, they have to have faith in our system. they have to have confidence that our democracy will be protected and that is why i work so hard every day as their attorney general to do that and i continue to do that god willing at their next governor. >> pennsylvania attorney general and candidate for governor josh shapiro. thank you very much for spending time with us today, sir. >> good to be with you. >> a quick break for us. when we come back, a new development on the case legal experts say could be the biggest legal threat facing the ex president. that is next. president. that is next

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there is some breaking news we learned about since we've been on the air. it is an important update in the investigation of fulton county georgia district attorney into the ex-president's attempts to overturn the election results in georgia. a court has granted the request to seat a grand jury this spring which would allow subpoenas and compel witnesses to testify. district attorney fannie willis has said that she expects to make a decision on charges in the first half of this year. let's bring in to our coverage,am even sindor andely glad from princeton university. they are both msnbc contributors. i have listened to the raffensperger call, i don't even

remember why, a couple of times recently and with a crime committed on a line, doesn't sort of kick up to this level of a grand jury, i don't know what it is. remind people what is under scrutiny. >> it is one of the calls that you listen to this and think is this really happening. this is a call where former president trump said specifically, i want to see 11,000 votes turn up in georgia in my favor. and he was also saying to those election officials in georgia, republicans who were telling them that it was okay if they wanted to say, well they had made a mistake but here are the votes that he needed to win the state. so this is really former president trump using the power of the federal government to really pressure state officials, state election officials to come up with votes for him. to some would say to commit voter fraud. that hasn't been found in the case in a criminal or civil court, but that is essentially the argument here.

and essentially this d.a. is saying that the start witnesses in the people and on that phone call, that they are not cooperating essentially. based on what i've been reading and that this special grand jury is needed to really build the case she needs to make. so it is really interesting because she's saying that brad raffensperger and others are not trying to cooperate with her and which is very interesting given the fact that he had the wherewithal and aforethought to record this call and is a window into just how much former president trump was trying to pressure state officials. of course this is in georgia where we could remember that he brought michigan officials to the white house, he was also talking to officials in pennsylvania. so this is a case that gets to the center of what former president trump was doing to state officials. >> you know, just a quick follow, i mean, how with the call paired one all of the evidence of what was happening at main doj, with jeffrey clark drafting this letter to be signed by jeffrey rosen, to sort

of meddle and open up there, how is the same conduct not under scrutiny or do we know if it is not by federal investigators? >> well we know that the january 6 committee is looking into specifically what the former president was doing to state officials. there is a team, i forgot what color because there is a red and gold and all sorts of teams. but one of the teams is focused on what the white house was doing for state officials and what they were trying to do. the doj have not wanted to say too much. white house officials have been very clear they want to be independent of the doj. so it is still sort of interesting to see what the doj is going to end up coming back with. but what you see here is state officials as well as federal lawmakers looking into these actions by the president and saying, here are the cases specifically where former president trump went too far. by pressuring state officials by literally asking them to find votes for him. something that really is not

done anywhere other than banana republics where you have sort of dictators and trying to find a way to look like they were democratically elected. that is what critics of president trump would say. >> so eddie, there is some things too divergent for my brain to put together and inclu described. what donald trump did on that call, it happened the sunday before the insurrection, i believe, and brad didn't just have the wherewithal he release it to the press. it became a public thing that sunday night. it dominated the air waves until trump knocked it off with his insurrection. those same people are passing election integrity laws all over this country with this sort of toxic poison of the lie about fraud when they are the ones meddling in it our elections. how are there not more neutral arbiters that can see the hypocrisy and the wrong doing on

the side of the people pushing election integrity laws? >> i think that's a really central question. part of what is being revealed has been revealed andn't cos to be revealed is the kind of cynical nature of politicians. the kind of self-interested character of those who are more interested in pursuing their own political well being, their own political gains than they are about democracy as such. here we have this kind of move, what the attorney is doing in fulton county and the a.g. is doing in new york. and trump is caught in between. but you have these other actor who is not just simply em boldening or working with trump in this regard. they themselves are pursuing their own interests to the peril, to the detriment of our democracy. so the question is absolutely a central one because it takes us beyond just simply trump and to all of those enabling folks

around him are those folk who is are actually participants in undermining our democracy. >> it's to take it further, he's one of the witnesses they'd like to speak to. he was on my program defending the voter suppression law. you know who told us that? and i wonder if there's any history of humans untangling themselves from all of these contradictory, politically motivated acts. >> sure, i'm sure there are. but i think it's really important for us because you're making an extraordinary point here. for us to understand that trumpism is often times, is in effect, a caricature of a tlaed of our politics that existed before trumpism. and so there are those actors who actually agree with some underlying policy initiatives and political choices made by

the caricatures of the republican party, of this particular ideological current. often times we want to cut these things off, sever trumpism from the other currents when in fact they all converge in interesting sorts of ways. in this moment when we see folk who are on the one hand decry away trump was doing, but on the other hand engijed in voter suppression, engage in defending those practices that disenfranchise american voters, we sue the con influence of these steams. >> the republican politic is septic. the whole thing. we are so lucky we had both of you for this breaking news. thank you. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. ws thank you. a quick break for us we'll be right back.

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voting rights to banning policies to help covid. now republicans there may have found their latest culture war. last week a house committee passed the parental rights and education bill, otherwise known as the don't say gay bill, which seeks to ban discussions of sexuality and gender identity in florida classrooms effectively erasing any teaching of lgbtq in history or culture. that move outraged advocates including one pete buttigieg, husband who took to twitter to slam governor ron desantis saying, quote, this will kill kids. you are purposefully making your state a harder place for lgbtq kids to survive in. a recent survey from the trevor project found 42% of lgbtq youth seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year. it's a story we'll continue to keep an eye on and cover. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. e on and cor a quick break for us

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes. we are grateful. "the beat" starts right now. >> thank you very much. welcome to "the beat." and we have a special program for you tonight. we begin with breaking news around donald trump. late today a new win for the atlanta d.a investigating the results of the election. there was an escalation request. county judges are approving it. so the da to seat a special grand jury is green lit.