guy came through time and time again. >> yeah. he deserved to be in the hall of fame on the merits but also just on the guy he was and what he meant to the city of boston. he was there and the face, in many ways, you guys may agree or disagree, of the turning of the page, the new chapter in red sox history in 2004. he won two more world series there and played the game with such joy. for all the statistical measures that go into the hall of fame, that plays into it. people liked watching him play. they liked being around him. they liked talking to him. teammates loved him. i say this as a yanke fan, he was a menace at the plate. you were worried, no matter who was on the mound. he was a joy to watch. i can't imagine leaving him all the hall of fame ballot. then there is the conversation about bonds and clemens, who are off the ballot for good. they've run out of options here. we can have that conversation, but i would just add that david ortiz in his press conference

yesterday said bonds and clemens should be in the hall of fame. >> let's get to that in one second. i definitely want to talk about that, especially with barry bonds. you know, mike barnicle, bill simons, when asked, you know, the greatest athlete he'd ever seen in boston, you know, he said, "well, i'd love to say larry bird. as far as clutch, it was larry bird. when you have a 98 mile an hour fastball at the plate or 81 mile an hour slider coming at you, the fact that ortiz could pick it up," bill simons said, "that's the greatest clutch athlete i've ever seen. that's an incredible thing, how hard it is to put your bat on the ball, especially in the ninth inning or in extra innings. that guy always did it. >> yeah. he always did it, consistently. you're right when you nailed him in terms of '04.

'04 changed boston. it changed new england. it was all due to david ortiz's ability to perform under pressure, as you just pointed out. plus, joe, the idea of hitting a 98 mile an hour fastball, as difficult as that may be, when you're at the plate, ninth inning, 10th, 11th, whatever, and you don't know what is coming in at 98, is it going to curve, is it going to move, is it going to be down, up, it's just crazy, his talent, his ability, his athletic ability, and his ability to perform under the most intense pressure that any player in any sport would realize. >> yeah, no doubt about it. let's talk about bonds. let's talk about clemens. jonathan lemire, i want to talk about bonds first. i'm sure you'll have a lot to say about clemens. but with bonds, if you look where that guy was from '92, '93 to '98, before he was taking steroids, the guy already was playing on another level,

another planet. he'd hit over 400 home runs, even without steroids. he would have ended up over 600 home runs. by every category, even by '98, pre-steroids, was considered by many to be one of the top players of all time. easily in the top 20 of all time. you have to put this guy in cooperstown. put an asterisk. i never liked him. i never liked the guy, even before steroids. i didn't think he was a good team player. that doesn't matter. one of the great players of all time pre-steroids. doesn't he have to get in the hall of fame at some point? >> he has to get into the hall of fame, absolutely. he says that the story goes that he started taking steroids after the 1998 season when he saw the attention that mark mcgwire and sammy sosa got for the home run chase. he felt overlooked, even though he was already one of the game's best players. he might have been a hall of famer just for his time in

pittsburgh. my thought is always the same, you can't tell the story of the game without some of these players. the hall of fame, it's a museum to the sport's history, whether it is bonds, clemens, alex rodriguez, manny ramirez, the list goes on. they should be in the hall of fame. now, you put it on the plaque. there is an line on the plas k plaque that details the investigation. a-rod's case, a year-long suspension, whenever it may be. they're too intrinsic to the history of the game. they should get in. there are other committees that look at veteran players. there will be a moment they could get in down the road. both of them have, you know, impeccable resumes. i'm no roger clemens fan, despite his time in boston, but they deserve to be in the hall of fame. the game of baseball is not the same without them. >> willie, i mean, let's just face it, these guys -- none of these guys we're talking about have good pr machines. in fact, at times, you could accuse people like bonds and clemens of acting like punks.

they didn't step up and say, "i screwed up." the person you put at the top of the list is pete rose. how in the blank do you have a hall of fame -- and i wish i could say the word -- without pete rose, barry bonds, roger clemens, a-rod, yes, and i'll add curt schilling? how do you have a hall of fame without these guys in it? listen, they all committed sins against baseball humanity. i get it. but as people have said, lot smarter people than me on baseball have said, this isn't about electing saints to the hall of fame. this isn't about electing people who make sports writers feel good. this is about the best. and if pete rose and barry bonds and roger clemens aren't in your hall of fame, well, you don't have the best players of all time. >> well, and they suffer for being two things, as you pointed out. no one liked them personally.

barry bonds is not a liked guy by teammates. he wasn't a liked guy by sports writers. certainly, he had no time for the media. clemens had a little of that, too. this is, as jonathan said, a museum that tells the story of baseball. so this is not about the hall of fame itself. it is about the writers who vote people in. those are clemens and bonds, two of the greatest players who ever lived. the shame of it is, barry bonds was already, before '98 when he watched mcguire and sosa go on that home run chase, and mcguire got to 70 home runs, he said, wait a minute, i'm better than both those guys. why am i watching this home run race and not being a part of it? there are guys, mike barnicle, in the hall of fame, i'll be polite and say suspected of using performance-enhancing drugs, guys who are already in there. there are people who admit to doctoring baseballs when they pitched. people with corked bats. some racists, greatest players of all time, and they're in the hall of fame. they may be off the ballot now,

but bonds, and prance perhaps w distance and time, clemens will get the veteran committee to get them in. >> the idea they're not in now is really beyond ridiculous. as everyone here has pointed out this morning, i mean, two of the greatest players who played in the modern era are now on the sidelines, off the ballot. bonds and clemens. the irony that joe raised in pete rose is interesting. how do you keep pete rose out when major league baseball has cut a big deal with things like draft kings, gambling outfits? i mean, come on! just put it all on the plaque. the steroid guys. there are guys in the hall of fame who major league baseball players would tell you completely roided up. they're in the hall of fame. nothing on their plaque. they're there. so let's stop being ridiculous. admit what happened. explain what happened. put them in the hall of fame where they belong. >> yeah. mike, just going back to pete

rose, because we're saying, these guys are all going to end up in the hall of fame, well, pete rose isn't there. he got in his way time and time again, but that really shouldn't matter. you look at pete rose, and you look at the fact that he's not one of the top 20 ballplayers of all time, he's easily on the starting nine. you have a starting nine of the nine greatest ballplayers that you're going to put on a field out there. there's not a manager that managed a team from 1900 to 2022 that wouldn't put pete rose out there. the fact that he is still not in the hall of fame. again, i was a braves fan. we hated the reds because they always beat us in the n.l. west. i didn't like pete rose. he had sharp elbows. he was a punk. he'd try to take people out in all-star games. he was a horrible sportsman. it doesn't matter. you could say the same thing about ty cobb, couldn't you? that's a guy, though, that belongs in the hall of fame, and a guy that we owe, well, mike,

you know, we owe an awful lot to. curt schilling, who can't stay out of his own way, there's another guy. like, willie brings up a great point. there are horrid racists in the hall of fame. >> yeah. >> you stack up all the things that curt schilling said that offended us, for good reasons. maybe he was rooting for the people on january 6th, i don't know. but are we really going to go through what people say on whether they get in the hall of fame or not? because, if so, we're going to have to take about 60%, 70% of the people out of there. take the plaques down. i'll ask you the same question about schilling in the clutch that i'm asking you about pete rose. can you think of somebody? i mean, there aren't a whole lot of people in a world series, when everything is on the line, you'd want to send out to the mound before you send out curt schilling. >> yeah. no, he's up there, joe. he's top three or five.

>> easy. >> playoff baseball on the mound, no doubt about that. to schilling's side of the argument, at least yesterday he got his wish. he begged sports writers to stop voting for him, and they did. his percentage went down. i don't know about his case getting in. he has gone out of his way to antagonize, not just the voters, but, i mean, a lot of fans as well as people in major league baseball itself. >> well, this is what he said. every year the conversation revolves around who didn't get in. like all star cheated. i say it every year, focus on those who got in. david ortiz deserves a first ballot induction. congratulations, my friend. you earned it. #big papi hall of fame. yeah, willie, final thought to you on all this. pete rose, barry bonds. again, it is so unfair that we are just talking about the people who didn't get in here

and, actually, schilling makes a very good point there. but it is. we celebrate big papi. at the same time, you look at a guy like bonds, and you say, my god, how do you have a hall of fame without bonds, rose, schilling, without roger clemens, a-rod? >> bottom line, it's a museum in cooperstown, new york. it is a wonderful. if you've never been up there, you have to see it. go in the summertime if you can. go by the lake. walk through the town. it is one of the great places in the country, but it is a museum. the museum tells the entire history of the place. you may not like barry bonds. you may not like roger clemens. that's your right. you can say he is a cheater, because he was. both those guys. but they are part of the story of the history of baseball. they should be in there, with the information on the plaque that tells the full story. the same could be said for pete rose about allegations and things they did. but that is a part of the story of baseball. >> yeah. whatever the story is and why somebody is not getting voted

into the hall of fame, you have a ton of plaques up in cooperstown that have people up there that have done as bad or worse. that's just a reality. i will say, we're just getting some breaking news from the sports writers of america desk here. big papi facing some new, tough allegations, willie. i don't know if he is going to survive this. can they retroactively pull somebody from the hall of fame? >> oh, my gosh. >> he has been seen with -- >> wow. >> yeah, yeah. i'll just say, some not good people. not good people. >> yeah, that's trouble. big papi, maybe he needs a line on his plaque, who he is hanging out with. that's me back in 2009 as a daily news reporter. definitely a hair style ago. i will say this, the backstory of that, i was sent to play a, ready for this, board game with big papi. he was the face of some new tops card game. >> yeah. >> i was the designated player he played against. >> this is beyond sad. >> he beat me. not surprisingly, joe, at the

end, he was clutch. he defeated me. that was the pinnacle of my journalism career. it's been all downhill since. >> boy, what a tough assignment. i'd like to talk to the editor. hey, i want you to talk to big papi. >> i feel i was owed one. >> play a board game with him. of course, at the end, you knocked the piece over and go, you sure are good, big papi. can you sign this? >> can we put the picture up one more time? one more second to see how uncomfortable david ortiz looks. >> oh, no. >> man. >> that's a nice smile. >> who is this squirrel i'm hanging out with? >> on a serious note, he also clearly wants to be somewhere else right now and not standing next to me. >> yeah. >> but he did -- i will say, he couldn't be nicer with the kids. you see this at fenway park. you see him at my son's -- >> take the picture down. >> people were -- >> great with the kids. blah, blah, blah. click, click, click. i'm with mika here. i'm with mika. it is time to go to news.

thank you so much, mike. greatly appreciate it. we'll be talking to you again later. let's go to mika in the warsaw bureau. who does she think should get into the hall of fame? >> you could have said all of what you just said in 2 minutes rather than 13, but thank you. >> i know. >> let's get to the news. >> that's what we do the best. yes. >> one more thing about scott roland, mika, if i could. >> oh, my gosh! i have some words for in polish. okay. let's get to the big story of the morning right now, which is actually right here in eastern europe, where we have more on the escalating tensions between russia and ukraine. president biden says he has no intention of moving u.s. troops into ukraine, but says america has a sacred obligation to reinforce nato forces. this as russia launches new

military drills near ukraine's border. chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the latest from ukraine. >> reporter: with diplomacy failing, nato and russia are both mobilizing for a potential war. more american weapons, part of a $200 million, 90-ton package, arrived in ukraine to help defend against a possible russian invasion. president biden saying he's close to deciding whether to mobilize additional u.s. troops, already on high alert, to eastern europe, although not inside ukraine. >> what would lead to that? >> what putin does or doesn't do. and i may be moving some of those troops in the near term, just because it takes time. >> reporter: and saying he might sanction president putin himself if he invades. >> if he were to move in, it'd be the largest invasion since world war ii. it'd change the world. >> reporter: nato allies big and small are also moving east.

spain deploying fighter jets to bulgaria and warships to the black sea. denmark sending jets to lithuania, and france vowing to defend romania. all of eastern europe is a potential front. while russia denies it will invade with new military drills today, it keeps the world guessing. >> all right. let's bring in foreigner aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments elise jordan, and editor of the "new yorker," david remnik, a russia expert. david, if you can explain exactly why vladimir putin is threatening to invade ukraine, what is his why here? why isn't he pulling back? >> well, i thought for a second i was filming into wfan after all that baseball. >> it was fun. >> to go to the news, this is incredibly serious. to listen to your report is to feel like you're in a barbara

tuckman book about the way nations creep toward war. but i think the central figure here, and the person most at fault, singularly at fault for arousing it is vladimir putin. he is holding a nation hostage. a democratic nation that troubles him. because he is angry, in retrospect, about the past. he wants to set out to prove to his own people that gorbachev was too weak with the west and communist ideology. he wants to prove that boris was too weak. he is going to rearrange the security arrangements of europe through this gesture. we should remember a couple of things. they're simple things. ukraine is a sovereign nation. ukraine is not holding its own

people hostage. and ukraine has not been invaded -- is not going to be invaded for the first time if this happens. it would be the third time. ukraine was invaded in 2014 by russian troops. you remember the little green men who took over ccrimea. russia still occupies crimea. that's 2014. subsequently, russia then sends troops into eastern ukraine, and they're still there. thousands of people have been killed. so the interesting atmospherics here is that the tense report that you just showed is quite different from what you're seeing on the air and in public discourse in places like kyiv, the ukrainian capital, where there is a great urge to try to stay calm. not defeatist but calm. but this is an attempt to reorder the security arrangements of europe. putin, who is a failure in so many ways domestically, is able

to use the propaganda of his own airwaves and his official publications, which takes up, you know, 90% plus or more of all press discourse. he is fighting a propaganda war to say that it is russia that is encircled, russia that is endangered, russia is the victim. that's, you know, the beginning of it anyway. >> david, if he wants to prove his strength, he wants europe under his thumb, that doesn't sound like there will be any type of diplomatic effort that could stop him, if that is his intention. so then what happens when the first gun is fired, when the first bomb goes off? what happens? what are the options for nato and the united states? >> remember, ukraine is not a member of nato. president biden, no other european member states of nato are saying they're going to rush

into ukraine to defend it. but they're trying to make it as difficult a decision as possible on a military level as well as a diplomatic level for putin. but understand what the russian people are hearing on television. understand what they're reading in their papers and on websites that are completely controlled by the government. that is that russia is the victim here. the percentages in public opinion polls, and they're independent polls, show that the majority of people in russia believe this stuff. you see the power of propaganda even in our own country. it is a very powerful motivator. at least it is a powerful ability to keep people quiescent in russia. the people in ukraine will rise up. if there is a real invasion, this is a nation of 40 million plus people. there will be not only a military response, but potentially an insurgency.

it could be a horrendous bloodbath. not only for ukrainians but for russian troops and russian presence, as well. this is enormously dangerous brinksmanship. >> yeah. willie geist, i bring up nato. ukraine may not be a part of nato, but one of the conditions that russia wants is to prevent ukraine from ever being a part of nato. they don't meet the requirements just yet, but i would think that many in nato and in the diplomatic community would say russia should not have that say. and if ukraine does meet the requirements, should be allowed to join nato, and that russia, trying to sort of assert its power on that level, brings nato into this. >> yeah, that's one of the central demands russia has of the west in all this, to keep ukraine out of nato. elise jordan, the president, as we heard a minute ago, said there will be no american troops on the ground in ukraine. he put 8,500 troops on heightened alert. there's talk of sanctions.

what those are exactly is unclear. there are senators, not just republicans, by the way, saying, you have to put the sanctions in place now, not after putin goes in. you have to use those as real deterrents. what is your sense of the way the president and the white house is handling this so far? >> it seems as if they're trying to avoid antagonizing putin even more and hurrying up what seems to be the inevitable invasion that's coming. if you look at how this has progressed so quickly, and how nice would bit if we could go back to this idea of ukraine as a nice, autonomous zone. i believe that's what mika's dad always advocated for. but this is just, unfortunately, spiraling in the direction what actually would placate putin at this stage in the game. some kind of moratorium on when ukraine could ever be accepted or considered again for nato, say 20, 25 years, something like that. it is a question of is there anything really that would placate putin here?

>> yeah. david, there's obviously debate going on, not only in the foreign policy community in america and across the west, but also, obviously, inside the white house. they're trying to figure out whether vladimir putin is pluf bluffing or not. also, the debate always boils down to whether he is just, at the end of the day, idealogically driven. he wants to reconstitute the soviet union, obviously. as everybody says, he considers its collapse the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century. you've talked to lavrov. i remember you interviewing lavrov. i was mesmerized by the resentment just dripping off the foreign minister's every word. it does seem -- he's always played a weak hand extraordinarily well. it does seem to me, though, that

putin has to understand that he is going to be going up against countries that have gdps ten times what he has. whether it's the united states, the eu. the price he is going to pay is horrific. forgive the long question, but is he willing to pay that price in pursuit of his dream to reconstitute the old soviet union? >> it's important to remember the differing psychology here and the different views of history here. vladimir putin, like other russians, including gorbachev or even a figure like alexander, doesn't exactly believe that ukraine is a real country. historically or otherwise, this is mythology. there is something called ukrainianness. there is a ukrainian history. at times in history, ukraine has been under the thumb, very heavy

thumb, of russia, and in the soviet union, ukraine is one of 15 republics in the imperial arrangement of the soviet union. this has now been 30 years of independence, where people speak and are all bilingual in ukraine. it is a troubled nation. it suffers from corruption and all kinds of political disputes, but it is a democratic nation. this is a problem for vladimir putin. he suffers by comparison, and he wants to bring ukraine down to the level, unfortunately, of the political culture of russia, which russia has suffered under him in the last generation. you have to ask the question, does russia threatening, is putin threatening ukraine somehow make ukraine more amenable to russia? seems to me that it throws

russia -- ukraine into the arms of nato, not into the arms of its aggressor. so it is a dilemma. if you read the russian press now, it is very contradictory. on the one hand, all these experts who were sanctioned by putin, or in government circle, begin by saying, no, we're not going to invade. but the nato arrangements must be rolled back. you have to ask, why did poland want to be part of nato in the first place? why did the baltic states want to be part of nato in the fist place? these are countries with agency and their own independence, their own political cultures. >> yeah. david, i was talking to my kids last night at dinner. they were asking about this crisis. i gave them a quick history of the old soviet union. can we put the map up again, t.j.? i explained to them, and maybe you can explain to our viewers

here, those who may not be aware of it, because we don't talk about it enough. 27 million russians. 28 million russians were killed in world war ii. they are paranoid, for good reason. and they see ukraine as a dagger sticking straight into their heart. we lost 3,000 people on 9/11, and we swore never again. explain how that horrific experience of losing 25, 26, 27 million people because of an invasion in world war ii, explain how that shapes the thinking of russians. >> well, it certainly shapes the psychology of russians, but you should also remember that many, many ukrainians died in the war, too. countless people across europe died, too. the military arrangements of modern life are quite different

than armies marching across battlefields, too. remember, russia is a nuclear power. ukraine had nuclear weapons, too, and gave them all up when the soviet union collapsed in 1991. part of the security arrangement to ensure russia of greater security and to reign in the spread and proliferation of nuclear weapons in the wake of 1991. kazakhstan and ukraine ended their existence as nuclear powers within the arrangement of the old soviet union. a lot has changed. this is a terrifying moment, and that is the intention of putin. that's the leverage he has. it's not economic leverage. it's certainly not the leverage of political persuasion throughout europe. i think we're also -- we should mention something else. that is the american factor

here. putin has set himself up as the leader of illiberal forces throughout the world. as the spokesman who tells the "financial times" that democracy is obsolete. he is, therefore, a beacon for nations, or at least leaders and dictators, who look to him as a spokesman for this kind of ideology, anti-democracy. he is thrilled to see the united states in disarray. he is thrilled to see january 6th. he is thrilled to see the trump presidency. he was thrilled to see, alas, the really botched withdrawal from afghanistan. he sees it as american weakness, as an opportunity. he remembers 1991 so acutely, and he wouldn't mind seeing that kind of disarray or worse in our political culture, even when it

comes to 2024. so that's also a factor here. >> to the point, joe, of the white house debating what the next move is, senior white house official just in the last bit has texted to say, although they're not taking anything off the table, at the moment, the package of sanctions being considered do not include those personally on putin. to a broader point about nato, this is something that the administration has been talking about for a while, though certainly ukraine would like to be in nato, they're not all that close to being eligible. they feel like this moment here, as much as putin is trying to spark fear in that part of europe, he is actually driving the alliance closer together. they're seeing some countries be more aligned, and other countries perhaps want to enter nato in the weeks ahead, the years ahead, i should say. so there is a sense here there are some sort of bull workers standing up to his potential opposition, even though some countries, germany, in particular, have divided opinion

as to the best way to approach russia. >> as david said, this is not how to win friends and influence enemies in or outside of, you know, your geographic region. all he does is push ukraine, finland, and a lot of other countries further away and more into the arms of nato. david remnick, thank you so much for calling. sorry we didn't have time to get to the knicks. the fan thanks you. i think we'll try to get patino on the phone. also pop by valentine to talk about the hall of fame. glad we could squeeze you? >> i appreciate that. >> thanks so much. >> i appreciate that. >> thank you so much. mika, on to you to talk about billiards in poland on the fan this morning. mika? >> yes, ahead this morning on "morning joe," we're going to speak with the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee, senator bob menendez, about those possible sanctions against russia. and what other options are on the table.

plus, house speaker nancy pelosi says she's running for re-election. what that means for the democratic party, as we head into the midterms. talk about 50 over 50. that's awesome. also ahead, florida governor ron desantis is out with a new re-election ad, but instead of going after his opponents, he's attacking dr. anthony fauci. we'll talk about that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. this is the new world of wor each day looks different than the last. but whatever work becomes, the servicenow platform will make it just, flow. whether it's finding new ways to help you serve your customers, orchestrating a safe return to the office... wait. an office? what's an office?

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a lower court ruling that struck down the policy a day earlier. that monday decision claimed the mandate violated new york's constitution, but created confusion among many schools and businesses for its suddenness. in response, the state filed a motion to keep the mandate in place while lawmakers filed a formal appeal. another hearing on the order is scheduled for friday. the white house is ending its legal battle over vaccine mandates. at least for now. starting today, osha will stop requiring large companies to enforce vaccinations or testing for covid-19. the decision follows the supreme court's 6-3 ruling earlier this month, striking down the mandate. it is a major blow to the president's strategy. biden is now calling on businesses to voluntarily implement the requirements. still ahead, more bad news could be coming for boris

johnson. a new report expected later today may expose more of what his office was reportedly doing during the strict covid lockdowns. plus, the must-read opinion pages, including one that explains what joe biden can learn from bill clinton. we'll dive into that next on "morning joe." l dive into that n l dive into that n "morning joe." these investmen, win, win, for this country. creating jobs, cutting energy costs, protecting our climate. so let'let's get to work.e time. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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♪♪ 42 past the hour. let's get in some must-read opinion pages. in the "los angeles times," entitled "joe biden could learn a lot from bill clinton." "both biden and clinton are frequency dubbed centrists, but they subscribe to very different

definitions of centrism, neither of them idealogical. for clinton, it's the popular stuff from both parties. for biden, the center amounted to splitting the difference between the two poles of the democratic party. clinton's ascent to the oval office was the result of a deck decade long war of the democratic establishment. biden's career was a member of the establishment. in june of 1993 when bill clinton's approval ratings were lower than biden's today, clinton sought a reset. he declared, i was set to the white house, i think, to take on brain-dead politics in washington from either party, or both. it was widely assumed biden would use his press conference for a similar do-over. when asked if he overpromised, he said, look, i don't overpromise, but i've probably

outperformed what anybody thought would happen. bill clinton never would have done that. joe? >> let's bring in princeton professor eddie glaude jr. we were talking about this at your school friday night. you talked about clintonism as a terrible thing. i was suggesting, as maybe the former republican in me, he got the better of our republican congress time and time again because he'd take very popular measures, put them on the floor, and then he would dare us to vote against them. we couldn't do it. he left office, you know, the first democratic president re-elected since fdr, and he left office with approval rating in the 60s. >> well, joe, first of all, it was great having you at princeton and richardson hall. we missed you desperately, mika. joe was wonderful. >> aw. >> we're at the end of the age of reagan. the fundaments that defined

reaganism have proven themselves to be, at best, complicated, and, at worst, bankrupt. for me, the democratic party that came into existence to respond to reaganism is also on its deathbed. that means clintonism faces a crisis. remember, clinton gave us the crime bill. clinton gave us welfare reform. clinton increased deep poverty. there were benefits. the backdrop of clintonism has changed fundamentally. let me say this quickly. goldberg opens up this piece that you cite by saying maybe biden needs his sister soldier moment. doesn't make sense post black lives matter. i don't want to commend clintonism as asituation. i think we need a new ppolitics a new response that goes beyond reagan and clinton, right and left, that speaks to the problems the nation confronts.

again, i'm a professor, not a politician. >> elise, you're not a professor or politician, but we want your take here. obviously, biden is saddled with slim margins in the house and the senate, which i think is some of the belief, like, hey, he is aiming too big. he should be more modest in what he tries to accomplish. the poll numbers aren't high. administration officials say, look, he's accomplished quite a bit in the first year. build back better hasn't happened yet, but they got the infrastructure bill through and the covid relief bill. two out of three in terms of massive pieces of legislation. does he need a course correction, or should he plow straight ahead? >> i do think it is a little overhyped, oh, biden's approval is so far down. it's just a really terrible time right now. we're going into year three of a pandemic. >> sure. >> people are tired. people are sick of having their lives upended. especially for the month of january, didn't really feel that there was an end in sight. so i think, really, so much of it is situational.

i also think he overpromised and hasn't actually delivered on some of the sweeping promises that he thought would happen, like build back better. so break it down. just get through congress what you can get through and what is palatable. have something on the board when it comes to midterms. >> yeah. you know, willie, it is hard to imagine how things would be going if we hadn't had the delta surge, if we hadn't had the omicron surge. biden was sitting at 52%, 53%, 54%. we can talk about bills, legislation, and all the mistakes democrats have made, and they've made a lot of mistakes, but you go back and look at the numbers, they started falling with afghanistan. then delta. then omicron. inflation. you have all of these things that you've got a virus that keeps coming back because people won't get vaccinated, first. secondly, you have inflation. i don't care who the president of the united states is, and, yes, you know, you and i have

talked about it, doesn't make sense to spend trillions of dollars when you're in an inflationary situation. still, steve rattner tells us, there's $2 trillion on the sidelines. people haven't been able to spend money for a couple years. doesn't matter who the president of the united states was, we were going to have inflationary pressures. of course, his challenge is getting through that. >> yeah. the president, as jonathan said, passed two of the biggest pieces of legislation in the history of the country. if you're talking about a failed first year in office, that offers some context in terms of what he was able to get done and what he was able to get through. but i think, eddie, when jonah writes about the sister soldier moment, or a president speaking to his own party in a way you might not expect, i think he's actually speaking some truth that a lot of democrats are sort of getting behind, which is, not that we can move on from coronavirus, not that we can move on from the pandemic, but it is time to get back to our lives. we've seen governors, democratic governors in states across the country, governor polis in

colorado who said, we've got to get on with our lives here. you had a chance to get vaccinated. if you didn't, that's on you now. we're going to keep our schools open. i'm not going to put mask mandates in place. so with schools, obviously, as well, i think that's part of what jonah is writing with here. >> i've been grapping with this point. we have to get back to our lives. the get back to is what we have to parse, right? it is not a matter of being republican or democrat or left or right. it has everything to do with whether or not you believe coronavirus revealed that our country is broken. whether or not the fundamentals of who we are, right, are actually -- have fractured. if that's true, getting back to it, right, is actually -- we'll actually seal our fate. so i think the motivation for the centrist democrat biden, the one who hillary clinton said that him and her husband were close, like almost twins in some way, right, that the motivation

for him to go quote, unquote, left, had everything to do with the crisis the country faced. getting back to normal, if that involves ignoring the crisis, we seal our fate. that's my belief. >> well, the democratic party, if they want to move left, they have to start electing people in the south and the midwest. they'll have to win in wisconsin this year. they're going to have to win in pennsylvania. they're going to have to win in north carolina. they're going to have to win in places that they've been losing far too much. if it is a 50/50 senate, you're going to have a centrist senate by definition. that's why these 2022 elections are so important. mika, what do we have ahead? >> well, still ahead, is there a way forward on federal voting rights legislation, and, if so, what is it? house majority whip, democrat jim clyburn, will be our guest. straight ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back. n "morning "

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i don't think there's a chance we're going to eradicate this. we've only done that with one virus, and that's been smallpox. through very important and effective vaccine campaigns, from this country, we've

eliminated polio and measles, except for an intermitent outbreak in unvaccinated patients. it can be a level of control that is low enough where it is integrated into the regular viral infections we tend to deal with. parainfluenza, flu, respiratory virus. if we can get covid down at that level, where it doesn't really challenge us and threaten us from a public health standpoint, that would be an acceptable, quote, living with the virus. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, january 26th. elise jordan, eddie glaude jr. are still with us. joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. as the fight against the coronavirus drags on into yet another year, some democrats are signaling they are ready to

change up their messaging, as they find that voters are ready to, quote, move on. as "the new york times" reports this morning, democrats were cheered for strict lockdowns and pandemic precautions. now, many weary voters want to hear the party's plan for living with the coronavirus. the "times" continues, around the country, democratic elected officials who, in the pandemic's early phase, shut down cities and states more aggressively than most republicans did and saw their popularity soar are using a different playbook today. despite the deadly wave fueled by the omicron variant, democrat democratic fush officials are ly skipping mask mandates and are fighting to keep schools open. it reflects a potential change in the nature of the threat. now that millions of americans are vaccinated and omicron appears to be causing less serious disease. but it is also a political pivot. democrats are keenly aware that americans, including even some

of the party's loyal, liberal voters, have changed their attitudes about the virus, and that it could be perilous to let republicans brand the democrats the party of lockdowns and mandates. case in point, outgoing democratic governor tom wolf of pennsylvania told the paper that his constituents crave a return to normalcy. i think everybody's angry. it's been two years now. we're fatigued and ready to move on. i think a lot of the political vectors are reflecting that. joe, you know, i think it's not about being done with it and just saying it doesn't exist anymore and ignoring it, but it is about doing better in terms of dealing with it. >> well, right. how do we do better dealing with it? well, more americans need to get vaccinated. we need to send more vaccinations across the globe. >> right. >> we're doing well on that front. i mean, we're doing better than

any other country on that front. but if we want to live with it, listening to dr. fauci, he's just telling history. we were able to live with polio and smallpox. people went out, and they got vaccinated. you know, i agree, we need to do everything we can do to have a return to normalcy. hopefully omicron breaks soon. i think it is breaking soon, and we can move that direction. but, elise jordan, i don't really exactly know how to respond to some of my friends when they write me emails and are angry about a new variant. oh, so now they're telling us there's this thing called omicron, acting as if it's the federal government who is responsible for a virus that moves across the world, goes to different countries, mutates. it's only been doing it, what, for millions of years? suddenly, i'm supposed to say, well, this is not joe biden's fault that a virus is mutating, and i'm very sorry you feel that

way. what did rumsfeld say? you fight the battle that, you know, is brought to you or whatever, the enemy. you wage war against the enemy you have. >> with the army you have. >> yeah, go to war with the army you have. well, you live with a virus. you fight with virus you have. that's all we can do. if it doesn't mutate, great, we can get beyond this. if there is another mutation that's worse than omicron, we have to figure that out, too. >> joe, it does seem like it's becoming more of a personal decision based on what risk you have, what risk you have in your household, your loved ones, and, you know, just to confront life in the way that you need to. i still have an unvaccinated child under the age of 5, so i'm going to try to be a little more cautious. i don't want her to get covid yet again. but if i didn't have the unvaccinated child, i really think that i would mask up and probably be pretty cautious but

not, you know, as reclusive, so to speak. that's kind of what i think michelle is getting at in her column, just that everyone is at this point of just being so done with it. but the virus isn't necessarily done with us. we have to figure out ways to make our lives work within the constraints of the virus. >> yeah. you know, willie, i spent a year trying to talk to friends and loved ones, gently trying to move them toward getting a vaccination. i understand, they'll get it if they want it, and they won't listen to me, this show, or any other show. it is like smoking. if somebody wants to smoke six packs of cigarettes a day, you know, that's their decision. it's a free country. but we do have to get on with our lives. you know, if somebody is not vaccinated and they don't seem to be incredibly healthy, i'm not going to invite them over to dinner. because i don't want to get them sick, possibly kill them. but those are the decisions that we make. i'm not worried about getting it

from them. i'm vaccinated. so i think these are just kind of choices we have to make, not just who is going to harm us, because, again, everybody in my family is vaccinated. the question is, are we going to harm somebody who is unvaccinated, and those are personal decisions. i think a lot of americans feel like, well, they had a chance to get vaccinated. they didn't get vaccinated. we just can't keep shutting down our country because of these people who would rather take ivermectin than get a vaccine that's safer than aspirin. >> that's been the policy now of not just republican governors but democratic governors. two years in, the facts are different than they were. you have the chance to get a vaccine. we're not going to sit and wait for you. we're going to get on with our lives in many ways. the facts around schools are different. the facts around what we know about kids and their

susceptibility are different. we shouldn't be shutting down school districts because a kid or teacher gets sick. pull them out. when they're putting, put them back in. michelle goldberg, columnist for the "new york times" and msnbc contributor. michelle, your piece was, in part, a reaction to something author barry weis said on friday with bill maher. >> i'm done. >> with this question? >> no, i'm done with covid. >> yeah. >> it's like, i went so hard on covid. >> i remember. >> i sprayed the pringles cans that i bought at the grocery store. stripped my clothes off because i thought covid would be on my clothes. like, i did it all. i watched "tiger king." i got to the end of spotify. we all did it, right? >> no, we didn't all do it. >> here's the thing -- >> no, we didn't all do it. >> a lot of us did do it. then we were told, you get the vaccine. you get the vaccine, and you get back to normal. and we haven't gotten back to

normal. it's ridiculous at this point. >> michelle asks in her new piece, what does it mean to be done with covid? the desperate desire to get back to normal is understandable. what's odd is seeing the absence of normality as a political betrayal instead of a curveball. what is in the way of normal life is covid, not covid prevention. critics of how liberals responded to the pandemic sometimes argue we've overestimated our ability to control this virus. but those who think we can escape this excruciating period by changing our mindset are also overestimating how much control we have. america won't seem remotely normal until it is a lot less sick. michelle, let's respond to what barry said there, but, broadly, the sentiment is how we all feel. we want to move on, but the fact of the matter is, hospitals are still full in many places. there's this shortage of substitute teachers and teachers because they're sick. people are dying at a rate of about 2,000 a day still in this

country. >> yeah. you talked earlier about how democrats don't support closures. they don't support lockdowns at this point. but where there are closures, for the most part, it is important to understand, those aren't because people are making political decisions to slow the spread. it's because there literally aren't enough staff for schools, right? with airplane cancellations, with stores changing their hours. a huge part of the reason that the country right now feels so abnormal is because we just had this absolutely massive omicron wave. the omicron wave, in certain ways, was really timed to kind of break people's spirits, i think especially parents. you know, i had spent more than a year telling my kids that once they were vaccinated, a lot of things were going to change. then omicron came, and a lot of things didn't change. but, again, this was a viral mutation. this was not a political betrayal. i think that that is really hard

to convey. i understand why republicans are making hay with this. but you just -- i think that there was no way to say we're going -- even if you wanted to, even if you were callous, and put aside the overflowing hospitals, there was no way to say, "we're going to let this rip and get back to normal." you cannot have a normal situation where institutions can't function because so many people are out sick. >> yeah. mike barnicle, i've known barry for a long time, and i like her. i agreed with a lot she said. as far as the frustration, i think all of us have held that frustration. my only thing i take issue with in that clip that we played, and love to get her on the show to talk to her about a lot of different things, but when she said, we were told vaccinations were going to make a difference and they didn't, nothing's changed, i had a friend say that. i said, what are you talking about? what are you talking about? you know because you have a vaccination you're not going to die.

your children aren't likely going to die. your parents have a better chance of survival. that's the thing that bothers me, okay? i understand everybody is upset. again, it is a viral mutation. i take it as a personal slight. i'm not talking about barry here, i'm talking about my friend. we were told, joe, if we had vaccinations, that would change everything. yeah, it is changing everything. we can go out, and we know we're not going to die. we can go out and know that, unless, you know, we're a small, small percentage of people who got the vaccination, we're not going to have negative consequences from it. so when i hear that, that sort of -- just a broad sweeping brush sends a message to nutjobs out there. vaccines don't make a difference. when my friend says it, when someone says it on tv, it's a

lie. i wish they wouldn't do it. just say you're sick of the virus. i can come on the show with you now, bill, because, well, i got the vaccine. i'm a lot more comfortable. >> joe, you're making a strong case for something that i firmly believe in. the fact that what the virus has done to our culture, our society, it's made us forget about the reality. that we are the luckiest, most blessed culture in society ever. >> thank you. >> in the history of civilization. >> thank you. >> covid, the word scares people. but the virus has an escape hatch. it has a vaccine available to help you get through it. the virus has killed a lot of americans and a lot of people around the globe. no doubt about it. i'll tell you one thing, there's another virus that people seem not to care about as much as their living fear of the covid virus. that's the virus of violence, the violence of hatred, the violence of contempt, the violence of obstruction that weaves through our daily

politics and our daily lives in this country. we seem not to be as worried about that as we are about this word "covid." so, michelle, i'd like to ask you, do you think that what's happened in all of this, people reluctant to go out, people reluctant to join groups, people staying home, people taking their kids out of school, schools shutting down, do you think this is maybe a lot of evidence for the fact that we are now living, all of us as americans, as part of the most spoiled society ever on the face of the earth? >> you know, i actually don't think that people are spoiled to crave and be desperate for human connection, for normality for their kids, right? i sort of understand what people say when they say, you know, the world war ii generation made far more sacrifices than we've had to make by staying home and, you know, getting to the end of our netflix queue. at the same time, i think people

have really, really suffered. almost everybody has really suffered, obviously to varying degrees over the last two years. i actually believe that a lot of the mental health crises that have become so epidemic in this country, and the sort of general attitude of hatred and contempt and anger are themselves an outgrowth of what everybody, in some sense, has been through. i think that it is pretty well-known that socialization, being around people, is one of the best calming devices that there is. loneliness is really dangerous to individuals, and it is really dangerous to a society. so i don't begrudge anybody who says, you know, in my personal life, i'm willing to take risks to live in a more normal way. i'm willing to take risks to be part of a community. at the same time, it's the job of the government and public

health authorities not just to protect the most healthiest and most risk-taking part of the population. >> all right. michelle goldberg, as always, thank you so much for being with us. we really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> great column. great discussion. mika, i want to follow up on something mike said. he just talked about us being spoiled as a country and taking things for granted. i want to take everybody back to when covid started. we were told it would take two years, three years, five years, maybe even ten years for us to get the vaccine. we may never get a vaccine. we had that conversation on this program over and over again. it was done in a year's time. it was a modern scientific miracle. yes, we had a republican president that picked moderna,

that picked pfizer, that picked the right companies. we had a democratic president that got that vaccine out. this is something, in normal times, in normal times, we would be celebrating this, instead of everybody going on, you know, their podcasts or their cable news shows or wherever and trying to divide the country. because this, again, modern miracle, we should just stop for a second, once in a while as a country, and say, hey, we've got it pretty great. hey, unemployment is 3.9%. hey, we're recovering better from covid economically than most other countries in europe. once in a while, we should be able to stop and say, as democrats, as republicans, it's pretty miraculous where we are right now, considering that most experts didn't think we were going to get a vaccine for two, three, five years. >> it is amazing. it is a miracle.

it is incredible. it is the work of two presidents. i think the problem is that the division that was being sowed in the past presidency had a whole swath of the nation not taking the vaccine that was created that was incredible. that has us in the place we're in now. so back to barry weis' comments, i feel she was speaking for everyone in terms of frustration. agree with the frustration. but when you say something like, we did it all, which -- no, we didn't do it all. no, we didn't do it all. in fact, a lot of people didn't get vaccinated. that is why we have variants, okay? because we didn't do it all. we had the option to do it all, and many chose not to. now, there's that important part of the conversation that commands and demands empathy, sympathy. there's a large swath of the nation that perhaps was duped, was given bad information, was

handed conspiracy theories and bad information about the vaccine through facebook and other forms of social media. we need to find a better way to deal with covid. you can't just say, "i'm done. we did everything," because we're not done and we didn't do everything. eddie, i understand you went through a pretty significant bout with covid. thank god you were vaccinated. >> mm-hmm. i'm still dealing with some of the symptoms of covid. last night, for example, you know. as i listen to barry weis and michelle goldberg, i'm thinking about a colleague of mine who was supposed to attend our talk, joe, on friday night. he sends me this gorgeous message, this beautiful message. i'm sorry i missed, but i had to go home unexpectedly. i thought my mother had survived covid. she made a turn. we thought she made a turn, but she died unexpectedly. diane gregory.

he's burying her now. 875,000 plus people dead. 2,000 people dying every day. we're over covid? what does that say about us? i know there's a longing for normalcy. whatever that is. but it is not normal for us to run past death like this. it is not normal. it says something about the moral state of the country, it seems to me. and part of where we need to be moving forward, i think, is that we need to figure out how we're going to address this pandemic crisis and come out of this different. because diane gregory is dead. >> yeah. >> eric is burying her. there are thousands, millions of folk, you know, who are grieving right now because they've lost people. i'm done with covid. what the hell does that mean, in the midst of such death? >> right. it is kind of a little bit too much of a sweeping comment. it's sort of like this society we live in now, where you can like or dislike something, and

we've decided to dislike it. doesn't work that way. we need to do better. coming up, one of the heros who defended the capitol on january 6th talks for the first time about his experience. we'll hear from officer eugene goodman. his thoughts about his actions that day and what could have been on that dark day. that day and what could have been on that dark day. but whatever work becomes, the servicenow platform will make it just, flow. whether it's finding new ways to help you serve your customers, orchestrating a safe return to the office... wait. an office? what's an office? ...or solving a workplace challenge that's yet to come. wherever the new world of work takes your business, the world works with servicenow.

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here's some of what officer goodman had to say on the three brothers, no sense podcast. >> when you see me come up the stairs, and you see me look. before i went downstairs to look at the door, people were out there, standing around, all that kind of stuff. i told them, i think they're downstairs. when i went down there, i get confronted by them. oh, hell, they're actually in the building. i didn't -- i honestly didn't know that they were that far in the building. so they lock eyes on me right away, and just like that, i was in it. it wasn't a matter of let me leave them alone or not. they would have -- i feel like they would have followed me anyway. i heard stories of people getting -- being armed, some of those individuals being armed. i don't know for a fact. i don't know. i heard that they were actually officers that were a part of this riot group who were intermingling with them. they, themselves, you never

know. it could have been -- easily been a bloodbath. kudos to everybody there that showed a measure of restraint with regards to deadly force. it could have been bad. really, really bad. >> that's capitol police officer eugene goodman. when you look at the photograph, mike, you think first of the courage. that's one man standing in the face of the mob who were ready to do god knows what in that moment. then the composure to lead them away from the leadership of the united states government. >> yeah. you think about that, willie. you think about that extraordinary day in our history, the extraordinarily courageous action of officer goodman that we've witnessed, that we've heard about. we heard him just now discussing it, obviously. yeah, i can't help but thinking, again, and you can weave this into the covid discussion we just had, culturally, have we become a nation of amnesiacs?

you ask anyone about the violence of the mob, trying to tear down the democracy, and it is a shrug of the shoulders. yeah, what happened again? the thing on tv? it's had no visible, deep impact, i would submit, on most american people. obviously, they move on with the problems of their lives. is my child going to go to school today, stuff like that. it is incredible that such a violent act, such a threatening act to the core of who we are, the core of our democracy, the constitution of the united states, the attack, an assault on all of that is now just sort of up in the cloud. >> we do have, eddie, a short attention span, and people are worried about the price of gas when at the gas station, but it's the work and the job of the select committee to not forget what happened that day. there are so many people in this country, many of them sitting in

the united states capitol, working in congress, so many people in the media, who are not only trying to move past it but change the story of what happened that day. >> right. you're absolutely right. the work of the january 6th committee is absolutely essential to the well-being and health of our democracy. it's also important, i think it is really important for us to kind of note or underline something officer goodman said. the restraint the officers showed. they could have easily turned to deadly force. the question is, one wonders why that didn't happen. some people out in the country say that that was black lives matter, if it was a different group of folk, it might have been a bloodbath. >> sure. >> but, thank god they showed restraint, nevertheless. >> you know, elise, it's people in our former parties, at least in my former party, who were trying to minimize this, who are saying that nothing happened. nothing really happened on january 6th. of course, they were also saying, until last week, come

on, it wasn't an insurrection because nobody is charged with sedition. now, a lot of people are charged with sedition. if you look into the details, "new york times" had a great layout this weekend in the "sunday times" about exactly what they were planning. basically, the ammo and the weapons dump they all put on the other side of the bridge, that they were going to use, to come and use against the capitol. it was an insurrection. it was a planned insurrection. it was sedition. yet, you still have people today on television, and you still have republicans in the house saying, nothing really happened that day. really, what happened in january? nothing. it is extraordinary. this is a sort of propaganda we grew up with hearing about. nothing less than that. it is a huge lie. >> well, joe, look at how so many republican members of congress changed their tune in

the aftermath of january 6th as time went on. in the immediate days, you had some outcry. you had protesting against what trump had done. you had some republicans voting to impeach him. a small number, but, still, there were some. now, today, history has just been completely rewritten. that's why what the select committee is doing is so important. all the facts have to come to the forefront. we have seen the images of that day. we have listened to the apologists who say, oh, there weren't deadly weapons necessarily carried in, so can't really say that's an insurrection. there's so much we just don't know. we don't know if there were deadly weapons or not. there are plenty of -- there's plenty of testimony, eye-witness testimony. we have to know who from the white house had any connection whatsoever with the rally. what was that connection. >> i mean, you look at the oath

keepers. you look at the planning they had in the weeks leading up to january 6th. there certainly were weapons. there was ammo. they purchased the weapons. they dumped them in a hotel. they had somebody waiting there so when it was time to get them across to washington, d.c., they could do that, then use them at the capitol. it's all there. the feds have it. mika, it just -- i will say, people get discouraged, but i always remind them, you can lie all you want to lie. donald trump spread the big lie for a year before the election. but he couldn't outrun the law. at the end of the day, the courts, even the trump judges, ruled against him. one after another after another after another. the united states supreme court, with three trump appointees, ruled against him. he can lie.

but he couldn't beat the law. >> right. >> he fought the law, and the law won. it's the same thing here. we're frustrated by all the lies. we're frustrated by the liars on tv that are saying nothing happened on january 6th. we're frustrated by the republicans who were so outraged on january 6th but then started lying, saying it was just another day. it was just a group of tourists. guess what? they're not going to outrun the law. i saw newt gingrich saying yesterday -- again, come on, newt. what's wrong? when are you going to stop? i saw newt, a guy i've known a long time and, you know, you know newt. we know newt. why is newt going on tv? why is he still doing this? why is he going on tv saying that members of the january 6th commission are going to face arrest? this is what happens in russia. this is what happens in china. you have somebody that's saying we're going to prosecute the prosecutors. it's not even subtle.

they're now threatening members of congress, dually elected members of congress who are investigaing an insurrection, attempted insurrection, against the united states of america. the response is, we're going to arrest them? we're going to arrest the people who dare to investigate people who committed sedition against the united states government? again, i just -- i'm not outraged. i'm really not. i'm so far beyond, you know, catastrophe with this. the united states in america, still in 2022, the law wins. the law always wins. the law prevails here as well. it will. we're seeing it happen before our eyes.

keep lying if you want, but you can't lie your way past the law. >> i'm only laughing because it's fun to watch you. here from warsaw, i watch you more. you're very good at communicating the stupidity of all this. you know what? the law does win. it takes time. >> i can relate. >> but the law does ultimately. coming up, majority whip jim clyburn joins us live on "morning joe," where he sees the fight for voting rights going now that the legislation is stalled in the senate. we're going to talk about that coming up. g to talk about that g to talk about that coming up. ♪ ♪taking a break from all your worries ♪ ♪sure would help a lot ♪ ♪wouldn't you like to get away? ♪ ♪ ♪ sometimes you want to go ♪ ♪where everybody knows your name ♪

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while we've made progress, much more needs to be done to improve people's lives. our democracy is at risk because of assaults on the truth, the assault on the u.s. capitol, and the state by state assault on voting rights. this election is crucial. nothing less is at stake than

our democracy. >> house speaker nancy pelosi explaining why she is running for re-election. pelosi has served in congress since 1987. the 81-year-old did not say if she will run for another term as speaker. very exciting, joe. i love it. talk about 50 over 50. >> talk about 50 over 50, she just keeps going. with us, let's bring in majority whip jim clyburn, the third ranking democrat in the house. jim, always love talking to ya. i always loved working with you also in congress because you were always the voice of moderation. i know i was crazy. i'm always running around. my hair on fire. i always looked to you, and you always knew the politics was the art of the possible. so i'm curious what your thoughts are now on voting rights. obviously, there is an issue with manchin on the john lewis bill even, which i think should be a no-brainer for anybody to

pass that. i do have an exception to the filibuster. but i'm wondering, do democrats go first for the reforms which they can get now with a bipartisan vote, or do you wait for something bigger? >> thank you very much for having me, joe. it's always good to be with you and mika, mike, the whole crowd there. look, we are in a sort of holding pattern. ohio just threw out their plan. alabama yesterday had its plan thrown out. it's interesting to look at the justice that made that decision. i think they are creating a new climate here. so i think that when we get back to washington next week, i think that a lot of people will take a

look at, you know, the act and see whether or not we can do more with that than just the presidential election. you have to count all the votes. it is a big deal. it's being talked about in texas. all of these lawsuits are going to make it impossible for us to have a year of elections -- so we ought to learn from history. santayana said if you fail to learn the lessons of history, you're bound to repeat them. alabama hasn't learned the lessons of history, nor has ohio. i hope that here in south carolina and north of us in north carolina, that they're legislatures will do what needs to be done to avoid the sordid history that all of us thought was behind us. >> congressman, as you know, in

2006, the united states senate, the people in the other side of the capitol from the house, as you know, in 2006, they voted 98-0 to recertify the voting rights act. 98-0. 16 members of the senate then are still in the senate today. so my question to you is, does shame no longer matter? does shame no longer play a part in this debate about recertifying or restoring voting rights that were stripped by the supreme court? is it wrong to shame people now? >> well, i don't think you need to shame people. we just need people to really take into account what our history is all about. i think you put your finger on it earlier, mike, when you talk about this virus. you know, if you think of a virus only in terms of what we've been experiencing as of

late, there is a broader definition of virus. anything that affects our minds and our soul can be a virus. that is the virus we're suffering with today. it's true, the fact that we are not able to come to grips with what the facts are. we develop alternate facts that will not tell the truth about things and spread all kinds of false gossip. this kind of stuff has got to come to an end. so for these senators to vote 98-0, and 16 of them are still there, we ought to really sit around the table and say, let's have a country that all of us can be proud of. let's have a democracy that will hold itself up as the beacon for the rest of the world.

let's not have the kind of animus that it defines so much of what we were in the past. >> yeah. i mean, they know. they know. there may be lies and misinformation being spread around, jim, but they know it's the right thing to do, to extend the voting rights act, like they sid unanimously back in 2006. house majority whip jim clyburn, as always, thank you so much for your service, and thank you for being here today. >> thank you very much for having me. all right. mika, what do we have coming up next? >> still ahead on "morning joe," it's been over a year since jerry falwell jr. resigned as president of liberty university in the wake of a tabloid scandal. "vanity fair's" gabriel sherman joins us with his profile on farwell's unlikely rise and precipitous fall. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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welcome to "morning joe." it is joe." it 7:49. we've heard a lot recently about jerry falwell, jr., coming from a tabloid scandal. our next guest dug deep we are no reporting about the disgraced former leader of the conservative liberty university, falwell says former president donald trump once offered him a cabinet position as education secretary as a reward, it would have involved him walking away from his $800,000 a year liberty job. it went to billionaire betsy davos, part of "inside jerry

falwell jr.'s unlikely rise and the precipitous fall at liberty university." gabe, always great to see you. >> you as well. >> the thing that struck me growing up in the southern baptist church and evangelical church openly bad falwell was playing the role, i love to say playing the role even of an evangelical leader, and what's so revealing in your magazine, in your piece is, falwell told you he was never comfortable in that position. he wasn't a religious person and made no bones about it. just said, you know, the place was going under, and he saw it as a business opportunity, and really sort of shirked away from ever telling anybody that he was religious like his father. >> yes, joe, i think you zeroed

in on the important themes of the piece is that the real contradiction between jerry falwell jr.'s private self and his public self and i think these two things combined for a career death wish. he felt trapped in the role being the representative of the evangelical movement when in his private life he didn't follow the dictates of the religion. the pressure built and exploded in this tabloid scandal in one sense an american tragedy. i think you see the portrait of the family how the falwells built the modern conservative movement and donald trump is the ecological end point of that, donald trump's private life didn't represent anything to do with the values of the evangelical movement but because he was fighting for their identity, a culture warrior t became more of an identity than religion. >> liberty university had some people on staff, some professors, some administrators,

students who were uncomfortable with falwell and made that known publicly. how did a board with this guy who made no qualms he didn't have a deep faith in jesus christ and he was irreligious. >> you're highlighting one of the real issues the piece explores, jerry falwell, jr., and his family took the fall for the tabloid scandal but inside the liberty community, this was no secret that jerry in his private life didn't follow the values that liberty made its students and faculty follow so the board was willing to look the other way and i think it's convenient that the falwells take the fall but this was systemic. i think the board has happy jerry was raking in money, that the university was turning into kind of a disney theme park for christians and when it blew up in their face, they said oh, we're shocked but that was not the case. >> pictures with former

president donald trump, endlessly devoted to donald trump. >> of course. >> some ways they're peas in a pod, the evangelical community rallied behind president trump despite the fact he's divorced three times, pays off porn stars and all of these things, wait a minute, that guy does not stand for what we stand for, willing to overlook it in the case of donald trump and jerry falwell. >> one of the things i write in the story, jerry was attracted to donald trump because he threw so many of the evangelical values back at the movement and that jerry's endorsement of trump in the republican primary kind of gave the seal of approval it was okay for evangelicals to back this candidate and ted cruz who announced his candidacy at liberty university was banking on the falwell family and liberty and the evangelicals coming behind him and i think donald trump tapped into something that jerry falwell, jr., represented was that it was

more of a cultural identity than it was following the values of the movement. >> gabe, this is a great profile because it's so juicy. paragraph to paragraph, kept you coming back for more and one detail just stuck with me, the bottle of nyquil that jerry falwell, jr., didn't drink alcohol but downed a bottle of nyquil to help ease his pain. >> yes. >> how did you get his son to talk so much for this profile? >> well, i like you, was shocked at the candor and openness jerry was talking about his family history and i think for him it was making sense of this identity that he felt he had to represent when he didn't believe it in private. i think he learned from his father that you could have two different selves. jerry falwell, sr., who created the moral majority who helped get ronald reagan elected was considered this pious, religious

leader on the public stage. in private he describes his father as an easy-going southern rascal, really this kind of, he likes to play pranks, kind of a ruff ruffian. >> story of white evangelicalism involving sex, lies and faith, familiar. what does this story beyond the falwell family, beyond jerry falwell, jr., what does it say to us about evangelicalism, white evangelicalism, politics, faith today? >> i think there are several ways to answer that. the first is that i think evangelical movement needs to have the conversation themselves about what does it mean to be, you know, publicly evangelical and christians. i think america, the larger culture that i've observed and written about, i think it's now become more of a sort of white

racial identity and economic identity, sort of an us verse them identity than it means about living out the values of the church, and i think trump again as we've talked about really tapped into that. >> you know, mike gerson, pete waner, russell moore. >> david french. >> david french, they've all talked about this and talked about where the evangelical movement has gone over the past five, six, seven years. gabe sherman, incredible story, thanks for your reporting and mika also, beth moore has been doing this as well. >> yes. >> and russell and beth aren't related, though. people think they are. but beth moore's been doing this as well. we've had quite a few evangelical leaders in the age of trump that have risked losing a lot of support and they just

don't really care. for them, the truth is the truth and they've held firm to that. it's fascinating, though, this story is fascinating. >> it really is, and you can read the article online at vanityfair.com. still ahead, should the u.s. wait until russia invades ukraine to impose sanctions? or should vladimir putin be held accountable now? that's the debate currently playing out among a bipartisan group of senators. we'll talk to the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee, bob menendez about the bill he calls the mother of all sanctions. we're back in two minutes. all sanctions. all sanctions. we're back in two minutes. so, we want kisqali. women are living longer than ever before with kisqali when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant in postmenopausal women with hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer.

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a live look at war saw, old town city, castle hill, christmas tree still up, a rainy, gray day but that is the most beautiful, wistful part of the city. it's wonderful to walk in. welcome in to "morning joe." it's wednesday, january 26th. elise jordan, andy claude, jr. and mike barnicle are still with us. our top story, president biden is warning he will consider personal sanctions on vladimir putin if russia launches an invasion. nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander has the latest. >> reporter: the latest american airplane arriving with weapons to help fend off an invasion. with 8,500 u.s. troops now at a heightened state of alert, president biden says he could start repositioning them to

eastern europe before any russian advance. >> what would lead to that is what's going to happen, what putin does or doesn't do, and i may be moving some of those troops in the near term just because it takes time. >> reporter: the president says he does not intend to send any of those troops into ukraine, and the pentagon is leaving the door open to more deployments to europe. >> i certainly would not rule out the possibility that we could be putting additional forces on heightened alert in the coming days and weeks. >> reporter: even as russia ramps up military exercises near ukraine, moscow was accusing the u.s. and its allies are escalating tensions. president biden says he would consider personally sanctions russian president vladimir putin if he invades. >> if he were to move in with all those forces, it would be the largest invasion since world war ii. it would change the world. >> reporter: after meeting with french president emmanuel macron announced he'll push putin to clarify his intentions in a phone call this friday. the biden administration is

working with oil and gas suppliers around the world to boost shipments to europe in case russia cuts off that supply. about a third of the european union's oil and gas comes from russia. the senate's top republican mitch mcconnell offering rare praise for the president's foreign policy calling the latest steps encouragencouragin. >> it appears to me the administration is moving in the right direction. >> we bring in democratic chairman of the senate foreign relations committee senator robert menendez of new jersey. it's good to hear the bipartisan, praise from the minority leader, is a good sign. i'm sure that there are a lot of people on your committee also agreeing. i'm just curious, what's your position right now on the timing of our steps? do we wait until an invasion before we get more aggressive or do you think we should preempt any invasion? >> well, joe, good to be with

you. look, the legislation that i drafted, which i call the mother of all sanctions bill is one to deter russia and says all of these things will happen. putin personally sanctioned russia's sovereign debt sectioned, sectoral elements of their economy, including the single most significant one, their energy sector, the removal from s.w.i.f.t., the international financial tran action system and others. there is a message if you invade here is the consequences you'll face. in conversations i've been having with some of our republican colleagues, there is a desire to have some sanctions up front and i think that there is a sector of sanctions, for example, for the cyber attacks that are taking place by russia against ukraine for undermining the, attempting to undermine the ukrainian government as was put out there, the false flag operations, those are all potentially opportunities to

include in the legislation sanctions that would go into effect immediately. so i think we have a hybrid opportunity, one that hits hard at the beginning and hits even more devastatingly afterwards. >> senator, good morning. it's willie geist here. the chairman of this committee, you have had access to a ton of information, watched russia and watched president putin as well. what is your informed instinct about what putin's going to do here. do you think he really will go into ukraine and if he does do that, after the fact, what is the united states prepared to do about it? >> well, willie, only putin really knows what he's going to do, but i have a pretty good sense of what his desired outcomes are. for him, ukraine is an object of desire to help him achieve his dream, which is to reconstitute what was the soviet union. it is also a tool to be used against the united states and the west.

you know, what happened is, this has been coming for some time, in 2008, when nato created a possibility of ukraine and georgia being allowed to enter into nato, russia under putin went, you know, bonkers. they invaded georgia. ukraine stepped back and then tried to create a pact with the european union and then in 2014, putin took crimea. so it is clear he sees any direction of these countries headed to nato as a direct offense, and the muted response that the west had in both 2008 and 2014 are what we cannot let happen again, so if putin has a clear understanding that what he

abhors the most, more nato troops on the border of russia, he's generating that consequence to him personally and to his entire economy, and thirdly, the effort the administration is doing to create an international coalition that is beyond the europeans, he should understand that other countries in the world will also react, that that is our best chance of having putin deter from invading ukraine, recalculating and then pursuing whatever security concerns he has in a way that ultimately can be done through negotiation. >> so senator menendez, speaking of other nations in the world and how they would be affected as you just indicated, what's your sense of what germany and france are to be? germany with a newly installed chancellor, the president of france up for re-election and campaigning hard to be reelected seem to be stepping a little bit out in front of the united states or trying to at least,

but what's your sense of what they're doing? >> great question. well, with president macron, i think what he's doing is showing another effort at diplomacy and we welcome the efforts of diplomacy to see if there is a way to get putin to take an off ramp and to show within europe his leadership and of course at home. i don't see that as really stepping outside or ahead of the united states. i think it's in coordination with the united states, and so that's welcome. in germany, what we have is of course a coalition government, schultz is the chancellor from one part of angela merkel's background pedigree is like and of course the foreign ministers from a far more forward leaning as it relates to dealing a heavy blow to russia, if it invades, so i think between that and

energy challenges in germany they're thinking forward. as i have said to some of my counterparts in germany and elsewhere if you think appeasement of putin is going to solve the problem, you will find him knocking at your door and that is what europe has to determine now and i think at the end of the day, they'll make the right additions. >> since the end of the second world war, the west germany, one of our best allies, a great ally and the germans have been for the most part since '45, i'm just curious, how disappointed are you in the fact that germany continues to drag their feet. the fact that we actually have countries that have to fly around german air space, like we're talking about iran here. one of our closest allies for decades making us fly around their air space doing everything they can to get in the way of

stopping an eminent invasion of ukraine. what can be done and what have you told your counterparts about for instance the pipeline? >> well, what we've told them is you cannot appease putin at the end of the day. putin only understands strength, number one. and number two, that there are other opportunities for energy that don't necessarily rely upon russia and by the way, if russia were to stop its shipments to europe, it would hurt itself, because it's almost a singular extracting economy. so it's not a question of it hurting only europe, and then scrambling to get other energy sources. it will hurt russia deeply as well, at a time that we compounded by what i expect to be incredibly heavy sanctions, and so what i've said to them is you have to be more

forward-leaning at the end of the day. i will give them credit that as it relates to nordstream they had basically stopped the process of the licensing of it, and that should be a message to putin as well, that there is the real possibility that in order stream will not come on line if you invade and if the germans don't to it, i think we will end up sanctioning it. so in this is a moment for leadership so we don't repeat what we saw in 2008 and 2014, where putin took very weak responses and said i can get away with it, if we don't act now, not just the united states but potential troop deployments we've deployed them already and send a message what you hate the most is going to happen and it will strengthen the resolve of our allies as well.

>> senator robert menendez, chairman of the foreign relations committee, thank you for being with us. mika? a report is expected later today on allegations that government employees in the united kingdom threw parties at ten downing street while the rest of the country was on covid lockdown. keir simmons has the latest. >> reporter: british prime minister's boris johnson inner circle facing a police investigation into parties at his office in downing street while strict lockdowns were in force. >> i welcome the investigation. >> reporter: in 020, british police were raiding gatherings around the country, but in a recently released photo from back then the prime minister is seen outdoors drinking wine with colleagues, his wife and apparently their newborn son. government officials say that was a work party and the prime minister defending another event

he said was also for work. >> nobody said this was something against the rules. >> reporter: at the time, this was his message to the public. >> i urge everyone to show constraint and respect the rules which are designed to keep us safe. >> reporter: an avalanche of accusations include a birthday party, a christmas party and even a party the night before prince philip's funeral. the prime minister apologizing to the queen, bowing his head. >> i deeply and bitterly regret that happened. >> reporter: authorities are moving covid restrictions here ending vaccine and mask mandates but the accusations of hypocrisy have put the prime minister's job on the line. >> keir simmons with that report for us. the politicization of covid continues to play out in florida where republican governor ron desantis is out with a new re-election campaign ad.

instead of going after any of his 2022 opponents he is instead attacking dr. anthony fauci. here's part of that ad. >> right now at this moment, there is no need to change anything if you're doing on a day-by-day basis. i would like to see a dramatic diminution of the personal interaction we say. let me clarify that because there was a little bit of a misunderstanding. >> the stupidity in this one is very strong. >> geez. >> i thought -- four years ago were the dumbest ads i've ever seen, where he's reading donald trump bedtime stories to his baby, i bet he's sorry he did that now, but this is just so

stupid. i guess stupid people will like the ad. i don't know. maybe p.t. barnum was right, a sucker is born every day but to attack a guy because, well, the realities of a virus change, as the virus changes, as the virus moves, as the virus, you know, mutates, it just -- again, the height of stupidity. it got him elected last time. i suppose it will get him elected again this time, but just, again, so stupid, it should make your teeth hurt. >> wow. >> governor detan sis is featured in some new polling from politico and morning consult so let's hear more and bring in white house editor for politico sam stein. sam, what do those polls show about -- by the way, the dumbest ads i've ever seen, like four years ago, reading bedtime

stories about donald trump to his baby and everything else. i have to keep reminding myself, this guy went to yale and harvard. yale and harvard. >> hmm. >> and you would never know it. >> can i ask, i've never heard the expression, so dumb it will make your teeth hurt. what is that? why would your teeth hurt because it's so dumb? >> because it's so dumb, it makes your teeth hurt. just your nerve endings are so on edge, i guess. i don't know, i just made it up. i just make things up. we have three hours to fill. i could talk about the christmas tree in warsaw still up. we keep our christmas tree up until july and the christmas lights year round. come on. we just talk about things in those ads are so dumb it should make your teeth hurt. >> let me give you some poll numbers. so the polls fresh from morning consult, politico, fresh hot poll numbers. we tested the primary on the

republican side, donald trump still in the enviable position. 49%. you may look and say it's not 50, but let's keep in mind two things, one is he was in a much better place now than he was when he ran in 2015. he barely was breaking 35, the number was expressive of that. two the sheer number of names. there are so many people who would potentially run and dilute the rest of the field, so what you saw desantis at 14, mike pence at 13, romney at 4 and we can do town the list, everyone else is about 2 or 1. can they consolidate around one person and if it is ron desantis, how much does the advertisement where he's reading donald trump's books to his kid come back to haunt him. he was sucking up to trump and now wants to challenge him. >> sam, if you look at the next slide even if you take donald trump out, hypothetically he's

not going to run for president you have a desantis/trump head to head, except it's donald trump jr. as long as your name has trump in it, you have a shot to be the nominee of the party. >> i was wondering if the respondents read it, but it's possible they generally want donald trump, jr., to run for president, he has a huge running in the maga types. this remains a trump party ultimately. there is data not in our polls that suggest his grip is loosening a little bit. i think because he's not omnipresent on our political scene. once he ramps up his own campaign we'll be in a state where donald trump is the king maker and going to make himself the -- >> elise? >> sam, what is your reporting these days that is trump going to run or not going to run? >> we lost his audio. so joe, you look at these polls,

though, it is donald trump's party. we can say the party's walking away from him. no, if you watch what members of congress go out and do every day, defending donald trump january 6th, want to move on, pledge faelty to them, lindsey graham said i can't support mitch mcconnell if he doesn't show he's loyal to donald trump, the former twice impeached president. he still runs this party. >> lindsey is a runaway beer truck. there are no guardrails on the highway that he drives down. we don't have sam anymore. is sam back? >> i'm back. >> i understand the poll. we're a long way off. i always remind people that in 2007 i think we came on the air in 2007, we spent the first six months talking about polls that showed hillary clinton and rudy

giuliani having people coming on analyzing which one of those would be the next president of the united states. so these polls are early. i got to say, what's happened over the past couple of weeks with one court ruling after another, the grand jury impanelled in georgia, the president's phone call that is a smoking gun, the number of people that have now been charged with sedition, the information that the supreme court allowed the january 6th committee to get. i mean, this is all piling up, and he's getting hit one legal challenge after another and losing every single one. i'm just curious what your thoughts are about at the end of the day, the long-term impact on a guy who is going to be battling possibly prosecutors in the court for the next two years. how does he run for president when he's got all the legal challenges that he has? >> it is a good question, like in a normal circumstance we'd say this is politically debilitating, no way he can

overcome it. the republican party would cut bait, but what we've seen in the past is that trump, you know, is fairly adept at using these to his own advantage. he makes it a litmus test of whether you're a republican or not if you support him. >> yes. all right, i think sam's frozen again. >> lost sam again. >> making my teeth hurt. sam stein, thank you so much. we're going to ask you about big papi, we'll do that next time. mika, what is going on in the land of christmas trees? >> oh my gosh, by the way, i'm going to take you to the old town part of warsaw. you're going to be blown away. >> i can't wait. >> it's stunning, very romantic. >> um-hum. still ahead on "morning joe," the u.s. is quickly barrelling towards 75 million confirmed infections of the coronavirus since the start of the pandemic, pushing health care workers to the brink. up next, jacob soboroff profiles

a group of front line workers who are often the first to respond. that's next on "morning joe." that's next on "morning joe.

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and the icing on the cake? saving up to 400 bucks? exactly. wait, shouldn't you be navigating? xfinity mobile. it's wireless that does it all and saves a lot. like a lot, a lot. welcome back. early in the pandemic, the constant sound of ambulance sirens was a frightening measure of the covid crisis but as nbc's jacob soboroff reminds us, emts are still facing that reality each and every day. [ sirens ] >> reporter: we're with an ems crew in sacramento as they respond to another day of unrelenting calls. so where we're going now, there's a serious accident. this one a major car crash where the driver could have had life-threatening injuries. look at the inside here. this is a horrific rollover car accident and you're telling me

that somebody who went through this, there's no guarantee they're going to be able to get in and see someone in a hospital? >> that's correct. >> reporter: captain parker wilbournes with sacramento fire the omicron wave crippling staff shortages and high number of 911 calls exacerbated an existing problem, long wait times at hospitals to off-load patients. >> one of our crews sitting at an ambulance for a hospital up to 12 hours and multiple ambulances that had been there over five hours. >> reporter: the men and women responding to 911 calls are at a breaking point. >> the call volume has significantly skyrocketed. >> reporter: do you see any light at the end of the tunnel or this is how it's going to be? >> i don't think there's light at end of the tunnel, not right now. >> reporter: we're on your way to a call for a 34-year-old that is said to have been coughing up blood. when we pulled up, the patient wasn't having a life-threatening episode. >> this is one of the difficult ones because what would seem to

be an emergency for them is obviously not an emergency to us. essentially all we're doing is giving him a ride to the hospital at this point. >> reporter: and you think he'll get in right away when he shows up? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: no? >> this ambulance will be out of service for an hour. >> reporter: the loss of time leaving paramedics strained and under pressure. how much longer can you keep going like this? >> i'm really unsure. we're working as much as we can. i don't know how much longer we can do it. >> that was jacob soboroff reporting. coming up, david ortiz is elected to the baseball hall of fame. his reaction to the news, and ours, coming up next on "morning joe." ours, coming up next on "morning ours, coming up next on "morning joe. ♪ ♪ ♪ "how bizarre" by omc ♪ no annual fee on discover card.

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red sox star david ortiz is headed to the baseball hall of fame. four other stars, barry bonds and roger clemens failed to make the cut. here is part of our conversation earlier on "morning joe." willie, david ortiz just being a clutch hitter, we'll talk about something i know you don't care about talking about too much, but really, he was in cooperstown after 2004 and time and again, he was a clutch hitter. it happened again, i think it was 2013, when we were playing against the tigers. we had no business getting past that tigers team. ortiz hits a home run, buries it into the right field stands, says where the cop's got his hands up and one of the clutch players of our time, and it's amazing to see how this guy came through time and time again. >> yes, he deserved to be in the hall of fame on the merits but also just on the guy he was, and what he meant to the city of

boston. he was there and the face in many ways, you guys may agree or disagree of the turning of the page of the new chapter in red sox history in 2004, and then he won two more world series there and played the game with such joy, and for all these statistical measures that go into the hall of fame, that plays into it. people liked watching him play. they liked being around him. they liked talking to him. his teammates loved him and i say this as a yankee fan. he was a menace at the plate. you were worried no matter who was on the mound. he was a joy to watch and deserved absolutely to be in the hall of fame. i can't imagine leaving him off a ballot and then there's the conversation about bonds and clemens, who now they are off the ballot for good. they've run out of options here and we can have that conversation but i would just add that david ortiz in his press conference yesterday said bonds and clemens should be in the hall of fame. >> let's get to that in one second because i definitely want to that you can about that,'s sp

especially with barry bonds. mike barnicle, bill simmonds, asked who the greatest athlete was he'd ever seen in boston, he'd love to say larry bird as far as clutch athlete. bird was extraordinary but when you look at the chance of failure, if you're at the plate and you got a 98-mile-an-hour fastball or an 81-mile-an-hour slider coming at you, the fact that ortiz could pick it up like that, bill simmons said that's the greatest clutch athlete i've ever seen. that is most incredible, how hard it is to put your bat on the ball especially in the ninth inning or in extra innings, that guy always did it. >> yes, he always did it consistently, and you were right when you nailed them in terms of '04. '04 carried that -- it changed boston. it changed new england, and it was all due to david ortiz's ability to perform under pressure, as you just pointed

out and plus, joe, the idea of hitting a 98-mile-an-hour fastball, difficult as that may be, when you're standing up at the plate, the ninth inning, tenth or 11th or whatever and you don't know is it going to curve, move, go down, be up? it's just crazy his talent, his ability, his athletic ability and his ability to perform under the most intense pressure that any player in any sport would realize. >> yes, no doubt about it. let's talk about bonds. let's talk about clemens. jonathan lemire, bonds first. i'm sure you'll have a lot to say about clemens. bonds, '92, '93 to '98, before he was taking steroids, the guy already was playing on another level, another planet. we hit over 400 home runs, even without steroids he would have ended up over 600 home runs and a lot of categories, the guy even by '98 pre-steroids was

considered by many to be one of the top players of all-time, easily in the top 20 of all-time. you got to put this guy in cooperstown, put an asterisk. i never liked him. i never liked the guy, even before steroids. i didn't think he was a good team player but that doesn't matter. he's one of the great players of all-time pre-steroids. doesn't he have to get into the hall of fame at some point? >> he has to get into the hall of fame, absolutely, and he says that the story goes he started taking steroids after the 1998 season when he saw the attention that mark maguire and sammy sew sosa got for the home run chance. the numbers that he put up in san francisco are just other-worldly and it does seem, my thought on this has always been the same. you can't tell the story of the game without some of these players. the hall of fame, it's a museum to the sports history, whether it's bonds, clemens, alex

rodriguez, manny ramirez, the list goes on. they should be in the hall of fame. you put it on the plaque, an asterisk on the plaque, a line on the plaque that it details the allegation or the investigation and a-rod's case the year-long suspension, whatever it might be but these players are too important, intrinsic to the history of the game. they should get in. emclness and bonds will have a chance, other committees look at veteran players, there will be a moment they can get in down the road but both have impeccable resumes and i'm no roger clemens fan despite his time in boston but they deserve to be in the hall of fame. the game of baseball is not the same without them. >> willie, let's face it, these guys, none of these guys that we're talking about have good pr machines. at times, you could accuse people like bonds and clemens of acting like punks. they didn't step up and say "i screwed up" and the person you put at the top of that list is pete rose. how in the blank do you have a

hall of fame, and i wish i could say the word without pete rose, barry bonds, roger clemens, a-rod, yes, and i will add curt schilling. how do you have a hall of fame without these guys in it? listen, they all committed sins against baseball humanity. i get it. but as people have said, lots of people in baseball have said, this isn't about electing saints to the hall of fame. this isn't about electing people who make sports writers feel good. this is about the best, and if pete rose and barry bonds and roger clemens aren't in your hall of fame, well, you don't have the best players of all-time. >> well, they suffer for being two things, as you pointed out, no one liked them personally. barry bonds is not a liked guy by teammates, he wasn't a liked guy by sports writers, certainly had no time for the media. clemens had a little of that, too, but this, as jonathan said,

a museum that tells the story of baseball. so this is not about the hall of fame itself. it's about the writers who vote people in, and those are clemens and bonds, two of the greatest players who ever lived and the shame of it is that barry bonds was already before '98 when he watched maguire and sosa go on that home run chase and maguire got to 70 home runs, he said wait a minute, i'm better than both of those guys. why am i watching this home run race and not being a part of it, and there are guys, mike barnicle, in the fall of fame i'll be polite and say suspected of using performance-enhancing drugs, guys already in there, people who admit to doctoring baseballs when they pitched, people with corked bats, virulent racists, some of the greatest players of all-time are in the hall of fame. they may be off the ballot but bonds and perhaps with some distance of time and clemens will get that veterans committee to put them in down the road. >> yes, they will get in i think eventually over time, but i mean, the idea they're not in

now is really beyond ridiculous. as everyone here has pointed out this morning, two of the greatest players who have played in the modern era are on the sidelines off the ballot, bonds and clemens. the irony that joe raised and pete rose is really interesting because how do you keep pete rose out when major league baseball has cut a big deal with things like draft kings, gambling outfits? i mean, come on! just put it all on the plaque and the steroid guys, there were guys in the hall of fame who major league baseball players would tell you completely roided up, they're in the hall of fame, nothing on their plaque. let's stop being ridiculous, admit what happened, explain what happened, and put them in the hall of fame, where they belong. >> and coming up, nbc's mark caputo offered this reality check yesterday on "morning joe." >> florida does have an awful history when it comes to race. one of the reasons florida became a territory is the united

states wanted to expand and protect the franchise of slavery from georgia plantation openers having their slaves running away with seminole indians. the united states waged a war of genocide against the seminole indians. something not taught earlier in schools. why is this happening? there is a fuller account of racial reckoning and historical reckoning of our past in this state and this nation which is coming to the fore and producing tension from people who don't want to hear those facts. >> our next guest wrote a new book on the south and what she calls a journey to understand the soul of a nation. princeton university professor imani perry joins the conversation next on "morning joe." conversation next on "morning joe. biden: when i think about climate change, the word i think of is jobs. these investments are a win, win, win,

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the pain and scars from that day run deep. i said it many times, and it's no more true or real when we think about the events of january 6th. we are in a battle for the soul of america, a battle that, by the grace of god, and the goodness and greatness of this nation, we will win. >> president biden on the first anniversary of the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol, reiterating a 2020 campaign theme of unity, while warning, "we are in a battle for the soul of america." according to our next guest, before we can have that fight, we must first understand that soul, and the place to begin, the south. joining us now, hughes rogers

professor of african american studies at princeton university, imani perry, author of "south to america: a journey below the mason dixon to understand the soul of a nation." joe, i think this is a great way to look at where we need to go. it's where we began. >> well, we have to look at where we are, and where we began and professor, thank you so much for being with us. this is a conversation that eddie and i were having at princeton last week. both of us being southerners, and understanding that in many ways, the soul of america for better or for worse is in the south, like we have to, whether you're talking about some of our greatest sins, some of our greatest gifts culturally, music, art, so much of it, literature, begins in the south.

talk about it as a native southerner who spends her time out of the region and now able to look back at where we're all from. >> sure, well, thank you for having me. you know, one of the ways that i begin is understanding that the south is where the country begins, and that encounter with europeans, indigenous people, africans, in which there is this incredibly abundant landscape, there's this desire for prosperity, and then there's also a willingness to push people out, to exploit them in the service of that desire actually sets the tone for the nation, and then you have all of the sort of signature moments in american history, the american revolution, and how we paid off the revolutionary war debt, southern prosperity, right, we have the entrance of the united states into a global stage as a world power and as a consequence

of king cotton, when we look at the electoral college, when we look at the civil rights revolution, the heartbeat is actually in the south, and it also, there's an essential tension that comes from the original sins, native from the original sins, indian removal and enslavement that actually continues to animate our politics to this day, and at the same time, right, the desire for prosperity, for growth, right, that had a consequence of so much suffering. also on the other side, the working people, the poor folks, the folks at the bottom became the source of incredible imagination, freedom, and that's why american music is southern music, right, our tastes, our desires, our food ways, that's southern. >> and so much of that began in suffering, in slavery, in the

fields, in the church. so much music that we listen to today began in the church. eddy, we could talk about this, i think, for the next three weeks, but just talking about how this country really did begin in the south, a very stark reminder to those who don't want to learn our history. ten of the first twelve presidents in this country were from the south and owned slaves. >> yeah. yeah, i mean, the south is the heart beat of the country, and the question that i would love to ask is one of the things that you do in the book is show that there are different souths. joe and i are from the deep south. we're both mississippi. there's mississippi, georgia, louisiana, alabama. you talk about virginia, north carolina, appalachia. talk about the different souths that you want us to wrap our minds around. >> sure. part of what i do in the book is

talk about how the different souths are so shaped by the environment, right, the land is what actually tells the story, and it is -- and one of the pieces of american history that we miss is that there was internal great migration when southerners from the upper south migrated to the deep south because of the promise of cotton, so there's tobacco, there's cotton, there's sugar, and all of these products actually shape the way people's relationships to each other grow. and so i had my, you know, deep south biases initially. i have a chapter on d.c. i lived there, i never would have thought of d.c. as the south before starting this book. you have to think about why d.c. is where it is. it's because those presidents, because of the virginia elites, right, want the capital to be near their home, right, so it's

important to actually and to tell the story in the waves of movement and not just as one movement but the south is produced over generations. >> i find your perspective in writing this fascinating because you were born in alabama, but then moved to the northeast when you were age 5 but still spent time in alabama. can you talk about how that dual existence has influenced the way that you approached this book and how you look at race today in america. >> thank you. that's a great question. part of it is i had a kind of frustration that would stick in my krau because the characterization of the south, particularly in massachusetts always felt to me somewhat offensive, it's backwards, it's more racist, it was this horrific place, and that was not my experience.

in fact, there's such remarkable stories in the history of the labor movement, the civil rights movement, of harsh living and extraordinary grace and dignity that part of, you know, in some ways i have been writing this story since i was 5 years old, right, in trying to deal with the mischaracterization of the region and not in a romanticized way of course, there's a lot of suffering in that history, but there's also incredible beauty. it's an exile story, right, but an exile story in which i have always understood that as my home, as the place where my dispositions were shaped, as a place where i see myself in the history. and so even away from the south, it is -- i would quote the painter omare bearden said he only ever left carolina physically. that's how i feel about alabama. >> i'm the lone person not from

the south, but i did go to school in the south, and you closed the book at mother emanuel church in charleston, and talk about that as a full circle moment, the terrible dark day when people gathering in prayer were killed by a young white man. what did that day tell you about the south, and why was it so important as a piece of your book? >> i mean, part of what it tells me is that we are still locked in this battle, as it were, and you know, we like to tell history as a sort of forward march towards an evermore perfect union, and i think that's part of why we're having this very intense culture wars, but the reality is that the nation has always had these fundamental tensions, right, there's something, the change in sane.

there's a repetition because we learned our ways of doing things in this country from plantation politics. right. and so there is forward movement and retrenchment, right, and that's not -- and we cannot actually push away the history, and i think it's particularly important for other regions because, you know, oftentimes people want the south to be the repository of the nation's since, but the entire nation has always depended on that region, and so in order to actually confront, you know, the sorrowful, the painful parts of our story, we have to actually tell a truth to borrow language from my colleague here. >> you are right. it's a battle, like you said between retrenchment and progress. it took 190 years from 1776 forward to pass legislation that actually moved forward on

jefferson's promise that all of us were created equal, and the battle towards a more perfect union continues. i'm so excited about this book, "south to america a journey below the mason dixon to understand the soul of a nation," thank you so much, professor perry. it's great having you here. mika. >> thank you. up next, we're awaiting an announcement from the fed chair today on interest rate hikes. stephanie ruhle has that and much more when she picks up the coverage after a final quick break. she picks up the coverage after a final quick break.

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