lynch pin of the donald trump plans to overturn the results. hours ago the committee sent subpoenas to 14 individuals who gathered dress 14, 2020. the day the electoral college met to seal president joe biden's victory and presented themselves as legitimate electors. in a statement the committee

says we believe the individuals we have subpoenaed today have information about how these so-called alternate electors met and who was behind the scheme. we encourage them to cooperate to get answers about january 6th for the american people and help ensure that nothing like that day ever happens again. the committee also making it clear today that these electors played a central role in the effort to toss out the election results. adding this, quote, the so-called alternate electors then transmitted the purported certificates to congress, which multiple people advising former president trump or his campaign used to justify delaying or blocking the sertd if i case of the election during the joint session of congress on january 6, 2021. letters to the individuals

facing subpoenas they reference the affidavit by john eastman described as the quote blueprint for a coup. the first line of the memo reads, quote, seven states have transmitted dual slates of electors to the president of the senate and eastman uses the slates as the springboard for the plan for mike pence to stop the actual legitimate electors from being certified. the individuals facing subpoenas from the committee are not household names but they are the kind of people who are integral to the process and claiming that they were the rightful electors is under scrutiny by the justice department. an official new mexico's attorney general said right here on msnbc last night that the

scheme could merit conspiracy charges adding this -- >> what's interesting about this case and i can assure you law enforcement is monitoring the production of the other activity because the real question is conspiracy. were there outside forces trying to alter the respective state outcomes in those seven states? that is where these fake electors could be connected to a larger criminal conspiracy. >> those fake trump electors under scrutiny is where we start this hour. daniel goldman is here. a former u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. now a msnbc legal analyst. also joining us is correspondent for politico and contributor betsy swan and jackie almani is

back. dan, they're all dog ears. i don't remember when we talked about whether or not doj scrutinizing this part of the insurrection. it is now clear that the 1/6 committee is. they have subpoenaed alternate electors for fake electors 'i wonder if you can give voice to the significance of that. >> right. we have known the january 6 committee is investigating this but this is another significant step in their investigation. we don't know to what extent they were engaging with their lawyers or them directly prior to issuing a subpoena. but what the january 6 committee i think has done incredibly effectively is laid out for us what their understanding of the scheme is. and adam kinzinger mentioned it in the open and the john eastman

memo but this is part of the new mexico attorney general said correctly. a broader foundation of proper countings of the votes. so what they did is they created a second slate of electors, a false slate, and in five states they forged a certification that's required by every state to -- by the governor or the ultimate official in every state to certify the electors and send them to congress. in five states the bogus slate certified and sent to congress and then going to be used for in theory mike pence to say we have competing slates of electors and we have to send it back to the states or delay it.

they were creating a straw man that they could then try to use to knock down the peaceful transfer of power on january 6. mike pence realized there's no legality to this and the bgus were not legitimate. there was no legitimate slate of electors as there have been in history and not in this particular case epa rejected it. this was a larger conspiracy we know from pockets now because of the great work of the committee as well as some excellent journalistic work that this was part of a broader conspiracy orchestrated by rudy giuliani that involved individuals with the trump campaign and with the republican state parties and these battleground states. and it's just getting worse and worse the more we learn about it. >> orchestrated by rudy giuliani or donald trump?

drrp is the through line. he was in the oval with john eastman telling pence what to do and telling rudy giuliani telling the electors want to do and said in georgia if mike pence does the right thing. the right thing meant -- i don't know if phony or fraudulent is the right thing. there's no reason for any state to have alternate electors and yet there's seven. john east marn in the oval with donald trump said here's seven. there's no way that seven random states that lost bigley if you will came up with let's fake it? >> right. the only fraud in this lest is donald trump's fraudulent scheme to overturn it. when i say rudy giuliani was orchestrating it, i don't know

who came up with the idea but we know that giuliani was from some of the other individuals with the white house or who were called. we have that recording from michigan. we now know from some reporting that giuliani at the hub of it. whose idea it was we don't. but you are right. there's no question that regardless of whether it's his idea or not, donald trump adopted this and ran with it and pressed it publicly, privately on recordings, in every way, shape or form. to the extent there's a conspiracy to overturn the election through the use of the fake electors and trying to pressure mike pence to refuse to count the votes on january 6 the votes were certified. to the extent there was such an

illegal conspiracy to defraud the united states, the evidence indicates that donald trump was involved in that conspiracy. >> let me ask you one more question about criminal referrals. the committee is reported to have been gathering evidence to potentially make criminal referrals. did of the fake electors potentially expose themselves to criminal liability for the actions? >> absolutely. they were a part of this. in particular anyone involved with or knew that the signed document they sign was going to be fraudulently certified and sent to congress. they knew that was a forgery. they knew that was bogus because they knew that the governor or whomever it was in the state who's charged with certifying it

did not certify that slate of electors so there's criminal liability and what i think you will see is all of these electors running to meet with the department of justice to cooperate to get themselves out of trouble and go up the chain about people directing them and that's how as we know by now how investigations work. >> betsy, i don't know what mark meadows paid for legal representation but this is what we know from what they turned over to the 1/6 committee. received text messages and emails to encourage efforts to send slates of electors to congress and one said was highly controversial and responded i love it. meadows responded to a similar

message saying we are. have a team on it. so i've worked in a white house and a campaign and when the chief of staff says love it, it is run from the top. >> right. no question. what's really interesting is much of what happened played out in plain sight. the fake electors trying to send the documents not just to congress but the national archives not subtle about it but the fact that the committee now has these written communications from meadows himself especially saying that they have a team on it shows that there was more going on behind the scenes that we wouldn't have known about if this committee's investigation weren't under way and this chapter of the story of january 6 highlights the impact that the committee is having thus far because when you have a public discussion about these documents

that were private until they were subpoenaed, it results in significant pressure on the justice department to take issues like these seriously. lisa monaco, the second in command at doj making brief cryptic comments regarding the investigation into this topic referenced the fact that doj received referrals suggesting perhaps the department wouldn't necessarily have opened an investigation. investigations that aren't run out of doj from states attorney generals offices can result in pressure on doj. doj doesn't like or enjoy pressure but it can have an effect in the way broadly that top law enforcement officials think about the responsibilities. >> betsy, we heard the campaign officials in their own voices leaving messages for the phony

electors. i want to putt up the names that received subpoenas with nancy cot l of arizona. shawn still. cathy burden. mayra rodriguez of michigan. deborah maestas. michael mcdonald. bill bachenberg. lisa patton. andrew hitt. kelly ruh. these people have in common a willingness subvert democracy. what is your sense of what these folks are about to face in terms of choices if they want to cooperate or not? let me read from the let ir. seeking information to overturn the results of the 2020 election and the planning and

coordination to send slates to the archives. we believe the individuals have information about how the so-called electors met and behind the scheme. we encourage them to cooperate with the investigation to get answers of january 6 for the american people and ensure nothing happens again. this is a priority seeking documents and information about who was directing them. what is your sense of their odds for success in getting that? >> as far as issuing subpoenas and trying to secure dock ms i think they'll get cooperation. we have responses from at least one person then subpoenaed saying that they planned to cooperate in part because they engaged in this activity under the advice of legal counsel. that's the type of response that signals or at least that sounds like the sort of thing that people say when they're

concerned potentially about prosecution. federal prosecutors take seriously if people think that they're doing something legal. now all sorts of people, we are getting interesting advice in the days leading up to the certification of the electoral college count. but the fact that people are saying, hey, of course i did this. my lawyers said it was okay. this is a preview directionally of where this is going why if you look at the screen you pulled up these are not random people. the people who have received the subpoenas from the select committee are senior state party leaders in multiple state parties around the country. the georgia gop chair. the nevada gop chair. former wisconsin republican chair. if the select committee or the justice department, specifically if the justice department goes after these folks, they will be going after the backbone of the republican party's architecture

around the country. these are influential people and facing a really legally messy and complicated issue. >> it is interesting listening to betsy talk. i think that what people sometimes gloss over and the focus on bannon, jackie, mark short, the vice president's chief of staff complained about the 1/6 committee and has as far as our understanding cooperated fully with requests for documents and testimony. kayleigh mcenany has also cooperated fullsomely with the 1/6 committee. the example set by some most senior advisers is being set by some of the most public and visible faces around both men. >> right. i think what's been so interesting in recent weeks is

just how important and a road map mark meadows 2300 text messages served as for the committee in terms of connecting the dots. the release of the fake electoral certificates and then go back to the contempt report to see that meadows is well aware of the effort to get rival slates on board with the plan and we do know that the committee obtained in totality over 4,000 text messages and haven't skimmed the surface on what they have learned on the texts but i think it's safe to say if we haven't heard of elevated to criminal contempt that most players over 300 people subpoenaed or reached out to and asked to comply with the investigation and sat for

depositions. the committee this very week is continuing with the depositions and are working to wrap things up to finish connecting the dots and had a recent legal wins with regard to the national archives and records administration to get the first tranche of documents and expect more to finish painting the most comprehensive picture of the efforts including the outside legal efforts made to coordinate the rival slates of electors. we only know a limited number of details on this yet. but it's still enough to kind of connect the dots up and down from mark meadows to rudy giuliani to the local officials who were involved with this plan. >> jackie, so far we know that it is evidence that's been forwarded to the committee from folks like jocelyn benson michigan secretary of state saying that media published a

recording of the co-chair of the michigan republican party saying that she was asked to carry out the scheme and among those that signed the fake elector document. in pennsylvania gop press release on december 14th at the request of the trump campaign the republican presidential electors met today to cast a conditional vote for trump and pence for president and vice president. arizona republic with reporting on a phone call from trump and rudy where they asked for rusty bowers to ensure that biden's 10,457-vote win in arizona would be thrown out. they told bowers, quote, there's a way to help the president and arizona has a unique law to choose the electors rather than voters. he supported trump. but he would not break the law for trump.

you are giving me nothing but conjecture and asking me to break the oath. i will follow the constitution. it seems that you can call other targets of the pressure campaign and there were -- you know, as bette sy said it all happened in full view. >> yeah. i think also what's important to underscore here is this entire operation was taking place. people in washington d.c. outside of white house working with people inside the white house in terms of galvanizing and organizing the people on the ground in these seven states to complete their plan and unlike some references that republicans have made in terms of devising the plan of rival electors there wasn't a plausible basis for challenging biden's clear and

legitimate win. no matter how many calls were placed to encourage the rival slates to write letters to mike pence and execute a pressure campaign at the end of the day there was no plausible reason for why they should be doing so and that's why the committee is so interested in finding out the origins because this could potentially amount to an as dana nessel said open and shut case of a public record. >> there was no reason because there's no fraud. we end up back at the beginning in the original sin. i wonder what you make of the subpoenas in terms of where the investigation stands. >> the january 6th investigation is much closer to the end. they're going to have make decisions about how to proceed with the trump children and pence and trump himself. but clearly they are moving

swiftly and forward. betsy raises an interesting point of an advice of counsel defense. i'm curious who the counsel is. rudy giuliani and the minions is like advice from ringling brothers and barnum and bailey. they should not give legal add visz. if they tell them this is totally legitimate that's on the gray -- it's a gray area. not a technical advice of counsel defense and could be used as a factual defense but regardless they are as i think -- i think this investigation will move very quickly on this topping of the fake electors because i think many will cooperate both with the committee but also with doj if they call and that could

really open up a whole can of worms and different directions that the investigation can go. >> betsy, do you want to respond? >> yeah. in at least one case. a person who's been subpoenaed has cited counsel from the state in which that person was based and not seen anyone say rudy giuliani told me this is legal so i could do it but people with subpoenas and responses rolling in and at this point we can't rule anything out. >> exactly. we watch for everything. thank you so much for starting us off. when we come back, president biden today vowing the $500 billion infrastructure package will help fix this bridge in pittsburgh. which coincidentally collapsed hours before the visit there. he is in the state hoping to give a boost to key midterm races. honoring a fallen hero's young life today in new york city.

the city's mayor promises to root out the type of violence that killed two police officers in new york city last week. we'll discuss the alarming national trend in gun crime coming up. january 6 select committee members, what the committee is expecting to learn. all those stories and more when we continue. stay with us. n we continue. stay with us can explore uncharted waters, and not only make new discoveries, but get there faster, with better outcomes. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change-- meeting them where they are, and getting them where they want to be. faster. vmware. welcome change.

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our students and teachers tried their best, but as a parent, i can tell you that nearly 18 months of remote learning was really hard. instead of helping students get back in the classroom, the school boards spend their time renaming schools and playing politics. schools that weren't even open. on february 15th, please recall school board members collins, lópez and maliga. our kids cannot wait any longer for new start. i've been coming to pittsburgh a long time and as a former pennsylvanian but i didn't realize there are

literally more bridges in pittsburgh than any other city in the world. more than in venice. i knew there were a lot of -- i had no idea. they'll fix them all. not a joke. this is going to be a gigantic change and there's 43,000 nationwide. and we're sending them money. >> that was president biden in pittsburgh today at the site of a major bridge collapse this morning promising federal fund to fix it. the bridge fell hours before the scheduled visit there. crews formed a human chain to rescue people from a bus this morning. ten people surred minor injurys. the president was there focused for funding on bridges touted the $500 billion infrastructure law to improve roads and bridges not just in pittsburgh but across america why the trip is part of the new midterm strategy hoping to get identity of

washington more with help from those running in tight races this year. mike memoli calls it air force diplomacy and reports that 70 lawmakers have held joe biden since november and inviting them on air force one to write and localize the remarks. joining us now is mike memoli live in pittsburgh with the president and "los angeles times" eli stokel is here. mike, tell me about the president's day. >> reporter: we have been talking for a while now about the white house's efforts to reset or reboot in the new year given the political troubles they have been facing and planned the speech to do that. when you see pittsburgh on the president's schedule it is a moment to pay attention. he had a first rally in the 2020 campaign here. kicked off the 2018 midterm campaigning here and delivered a

powerful speech here, as well. so the president was coming here to talk about roads and bridges. but no 30-minute speech as the president delivered could have gotten the message home about the pornts of the law like the events of the bridge collapse hire in pittsburgh and the white house once they understood no fatalities was able to add to the president's schedule and saw the president interacting with local law enforcement there and saying some of the 3,000 bridges being judged in poor condition this was one of them. are exactly the kinds of reasons why and goals for his infrastructure law and then the president came here to make the case and wants democrats to run on it and talk about what they might show up or might not. the two leading senate candidates in pennsylvania a critical race for democrats to retain control of the senate sitting side by side in the front row. >> you could not have a more

dramatic series of events. the pictures of that bridge are unbelievable. i want to ask you about something else that you are reporting today. the president is in demand this year and presidents sometimes have to assert that or make sure that reporters who cover them know that. when there's a question mark and not super aware of an open question. for these democrats to want to campaign with the president clearly the strength of the infrastructure make him a draw around the issues. is that what the white house is saying? >> reporter: you know the conventional wisdom around midterm elections. sort of inertia is not good and

trying to find ways for democrats in tough races to lock arms with the president even if the popularity is waning and i noticed something interesting. he was bringing the lawmakers with him on air force one and at the events he called them out talking about policies in maybe the infrastructure law that they had pushed hard for and going out of the way to point out who challenged him. he talked about getting an earful on the ride and really challenging him on the key issues. biden has an expression to like to use often on the road which is i'll campaign for you or against you, whatever helps the most. a lawmaker from new hampshire invited the delegation to sit in the cabin on air force one and conference room and huddled around the speech writer to make changes based on the suggestions and this is a president who has been constrained in office by

covid and the demands of the office and been a way in which the white house is finding is a great way for him to have a connection more to sort of the -- he's a tactical politician and on the ground stuck in washington for so long. >> there is a thing, too, eli, about a president feeling -- i'm thinking of palin's word is unshackled. to pop out of the bubble and bring everyone in the bubble but the psychology for any president to get out of washington and see streets lined with people that like them and it seems like this is a right moment for this president and this white house to sort of change up the routines. >> >> i think that's right. the president for one reason or another was not able to travel as much as he liked and this

shift is a reflection of an awareness of the white house and the president he is not accessible enough to members of the party and on the campaign trail touting the things their accomplished. there shall conversations that i'm told taken place on air force one that are tough about agenda items that are unfinished. what's going to be in build back better. the president in the speech was talking about that and competitiveness bill to take the u.s. competitive with china and probably closer to the line on capitol hill than build back bet ere is and talking about the agenda items. yes democrats will appreciate facing tough races in the fall and appreciate time in the expectative cabin of air force

one but want to be able to show they respond to the needs of every day americans and putt more meat on the bone with build back better. there aren't that many conversations taking place around that right now and challenges that he faces that won't be solved by rubbing elbows with like minded democrats. >> there's news from the white house that next week the president i think february 3rd in new york city to meet with new york city mayor eric adams spending the time so far dealing with rising gun violence, the tragic death of two officers last friday night in harlem and the white house seems to have an ear to the ground. do you know anything about that trip? >> i know that they have been very conscious of what is gaining traction, not just in sort of left wing media but

right wing media. what's central to the republicans' campaign messaging in the fall. not a policy agenda but hitting democrats on inflation and rising crime. and so this trip to new york is very much an opportunity for the president to sort of appear with a new victorious new york city mayor and show that he is concerned about ridesing crime and try to rebut or prebut the arguments coming. >> thank you so much for joining us today. the new mayor of new york city with the task to eulogize a member of his place force speaking on behalf of a country concerned about the spike in violent crime. we'll talk about that next. that

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the tragic death of your brother in blue uniform is a stark reminder of what is on the line every day. we are committed to giving you the resource to do your jobs and ensure that we can keep the people of this city safe. >> the horror that took their lives is an affront to every decrept, caring human being in this city and beyond. their assassinations shocks sensibilities and leads others to despash.

>> the system continues to fail us. we are not safer anymore. not even the members of the service. >> mourners remembering nypd officer jason rivera killed in the line of duty a week ago while responding to a call. the eulogies honoring his life and sacrifice and decrying the surge in crime violence that plagued new york city and claimed the lives of officers this month alone and it is not just new york city. cities all awe cross america face ridesing gun violence. more than 20,000 people killed by gun violence in 2021 and increase from the record number set in 2020 when homicides spiked roughly 30 prts from the previous year. it is the largest single year jump since the fbi began to

publish the reports. tom, tell me what today has been like for the nypd. >> i think today's been a show of force for the officers that essentially marched up and down 5th filling it nearly 20 blocks of officers not just from the new york city police department but police departments from the other parts of the country to let the people know that they stood beside aufrts jason river 5 and standing up for what happened just a little over a week or so ago. when you look at the totality of this you saw the comments made and something we spoke about on this program with respect to gun violence and at the time people as we posted that segment on

twitter always a place of deep thought -- >> and generosity. >> generosity and well reasoned and comfortable back and forth and came back to point to the fact that homicides were down year over year. and are down over 13% from 12 years ago. that's 100% true and better place than 1990 in this city compared to 488 last year. but that does ignore the trends you spoke about in that story and what is recorded in national statistics so we talk about the types of crimes. it is important to keep an eye on the victims. looking at philadelphia as a project in the nbc news investigative unit. i pulled the victim information. the people impacted by the gun

violence specifically homicide victims. of the 563 people killed in philadelphia last year, a record by far in that city, over 80% were members of the black community. 453. approximately a third of those under the age of 24. when we talk about the real impact of crime that's a tremendous impact on that city's black population. that's a tremendous loss of life. even more disturbingly perhaps is the tremendous amount of loss of life for that city's young black population and so i think with former mayor nutter with an op-ed after the da said tlft no crisis of violence and saying the impact on the city's black community, on the youth of the black community in that city,

comments that the district attorney since apologized for and walked back and the sitting da. i think when you look at it from a victim standpoint it becomes clear that in certain big cities in this country we are looking at a lot of death, grief and questions to be answered. >> that was on display in today's service from the wife of officer rivera. i wonder if you can tell me your conversations with like with law enforcement and with politicians and with the communities. >> i think that clearly with city of new york but not only new york, around the country, have really come together to say we have to do something about gun violence. and i saw a tremendous amount of

outpouring of support for the slain officers. last saturday our young people including reverend steven marshall and my daughter had a prayer vigil for the officer at that point still alive. at the same time we murs deal with the issue of guns. illegal guns. why was this young man or person that shot these policemen, why was he able to get an illegal gun. why are they used all the time? as tim winter said killing blacks in philadelphia or chicago? we have an issue of gun violence and the way to deal with it is to really deal with how we deal with the question of the sales and trafficking of guns. and many people on the right want to talk about violence against police and they are

right. but they don't want to talk about the guns killing police and citizens. after doing the funeral for george floyd i did a funeral of a 1-year-old killed in gang violence. all the lives laid at the feet of those that won't deal with gun control and how we deal with the proliferation of guns in these communities. >> i want to start that conversation with you break. we'll be right back. we'll also talk about agencies across the country turning to police reform and where the justice department is on that, as well. department is on that, as well.

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save big. um, she's eating the rocket. ♪♪ lunchables! built to be eaten. what we are doing is applying every tool that we can to address the violent crime rise that we have seen in this country. that means going after and targeting the most violent offenders and working with our state and local law enforcement partners to lock those people up. that means going after gun violence and the illicit trafficking of guns that fuel it. >> deputy attorney general lisa monaco on the white house strategy to combat gun violence as crime continues to rise in this country. we're back with tom winter and the rev al sharpton. what lisa monaco makes clear there, tom, is that the white house strategy only works with willing local partners. what does that look like in this

city and beyond? >> yeah, i don't really think that that's a particular problem, traditionally. i mean, i think you've got in a number of cities that have violent crime issues, violent crime task force where someone on a joint terrorism task force, members of local law enforcement and the fbi working together. the advantage they have there is they can put together complex federal cases. i know in new york city, and speaking with people about the precision police program where people were indicted prior to arrest, that's where you build cases on somebody over time, it's not a one-off arrest. it's not one particular gun. you build out these larger cases. you have the opportunity because a lot of times, those guns are taken across state lines to then bring in statutes. the advantage of that, according to law enforcement, is you get a situation where you say, instead of somebody thinking they're only going to do a year or two of prison locally, where they will be able to know the people that are in jail with them, where they'll be able to have family members visit, all of a sudden they're looking at five,

ten-year minimum sentences at the federal level where they're going to be going to jail in an entirely different part of the country where they're not going to know anybody and at that point, it becomes a bit of a different calculation for the person who's been arrested and sometimes they're in a position where they're perhaps more willing to plead, perhaps more willing to cooperate, so those are the types of cases that tend to have success for the most prolific of gun traffickers and some of the most prolific people when it comes to violence, certainly when we talk about gangs, there's a number of different federal tools that can be employed there to be able to work with local law enforcement to make arrests. i've seen, i would say, typically, very good cooperation between these various law enforcement groups, state, local, federal, certainly not just in new york city but in other parts of the country where everybody wants to work together to address the -- kind of the core problem. i think among a significant amount of police officers, there's a feeling that it is a better use of their time to conduct more complex

investigations and truly get the worst of the worst off the street. i don't think -- and you saw some pushback, by the way, when stop and frisk was really running rampant towards the end of the bloomberg administration in new york city, where the new york city police department ran into issues with federal courts and had federal monitors. you looked at a time period there where a number of cops on the beat were complaining about it, and they didn't understand, and even the pba, the union of the nypd complained about that issue and said, look, we're just going after statistics and we're constantly harassing young minorities in our communities that we should be building a better relationship with. so, i think when you talk to police officers that are actually on the job and care about it, day-to-day, they prefer to work those bigger cases and address the root problem and that's what these various task forces and this cooperation that -- from that clip there that you played with lisa monaco, and with others, that that's the type of work that they're talking about. and traditionally, that's the best work that we've seen. >> well, and i think we know

enough now, rev, to know that when the law enforcement relationship with the community is frayed, as i think tom is describing, it doesn't lead to good outcomes for anybody, especially the communities most at risk of violence. what is your message to this white house as the president prepares to travel to new york city next thursday to meet with mayor adams? >> i think that the message is that you must build, you must reimagine how we deal with policing and community where there has been the mutual efforts, mutual respect and trust, we have seen crime come down. people said when we, national action network and many other groups fought against stop and frisk that tom just mentioned, that crime would go up. it actually went down. when you start dealing where there's mutual trust, you can get a hand on this. but if you only go for statistics at the bottom, putting units back out in the

street and targeting kids based on race, you will not bring crime down and you will only fray the relationships between the community and the police. there needs to be a spirit of all of us need these guns off the streets and all of us need the not only the gangs on the street but the gangs that are manufacturing and selling these guns across state lines. we all need that, and we need to be in it together, but if we start going back into situations like stop and frisk and having these crime units that led to 20 years ago, all the way up to now, that is not going to solve the problem. it's going to exacerbate the problem, and we ought not exacerbate the problem. we ought to have this as a wake-up call because this is happening every day in these communities, like in philly, like in chicago, and like in new york, and whether they are being victims that are in blue uniforms or blue jeans, we need to come together, but come together on some sane policies

against guns, not trying to pit one against the other and scapegoat kids just to build up some statistical data that does not solve the problem. >> tom winter, the reverend al sharpton, thank you so much. this sunday on "politics nation," transportation secretary pete buttigieg will join the rev right here on msnbc at 5:00 p.m. eastern. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a very short break. the next hour of "deadline white ushoe" starts after a very white ushoe" starts after a very short break.tation. fermentation? yes, formulated to help your body really truly absorb the natural goodness. new chapter. wellness well done. >> woman: what's my safelite story? >> vo: my car is more than four wheels. it's my after-work decompression zone. so when my windshield broke... >> woman: what?! >> vo: ...i searched for someone who really knew my car. i found the experts at safelite autoglass. with their exclusive technology, they fixed my windshield...

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ultimate slate of electors in the contested states is going to vote and we're going to send those results up to congress. this will ensure that all of our legal remedies remain open. that means if we win these cases in the courts, that we can direct that the alternate slate of electors be certified. the state legislatures in georgia, wisconsin, pennsylvania, can do the same and likewise congress has that opportunity as well to do the right thing. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. i know, i know, we don't show you that guy, that was stephen miller, on this program very often but we did it today for a reason. the time he made those comments, did you notice the date? december 14th. he was a senior advisor to the trump campaign on that day, saying out loud what was happening, what they were directing, what may have been the lynchpin, the crucial element of the ex-president's plot to overturn an election he lost. the victory of joe biden in the 2020 election. the plan to replace real and valid biden electors with

alternate, it's another word for fake, electors who would go against the will of the people in their states, go against the results in their states and say that donald trump had won, so, on that day, december 14, 2020, in seven states that joe biden won and in most of them by a lot, groups of republicans met informally and then sought to submit their own slates of electors with forged documents right as the democratic electors firmly cast their votes, the real ones. today, as we talked about at the top of the last hour, a huge development in the examination of that scheme. the january 6th select committee has subpoenaed more than a dozen of the fake electors across seven states, asking for documents and asking for testimony on the planning and coordination of the alternate electors plot. the subpoenas read in part, quote, according to documents sent to the national archives, you were a purported electoral college elector who met with other purported electors on or

about december 14, 2020, to cast votes for former president trump and former vice president pence. despite the fact that your state had made a final determination that joseph biden jr. and kamala harris were the winners. the existence of these purported alternate elector votes was used as a justification to delay or block the certification of the election during the joint session of congress on january 6, 2021. just minutes ago, we learned that one of those subpoenaed, former wisconsin republican party chairman andrew hitt, has already said he will cooperate with the january 6th select committee. according to the "milwaukee journal sentinel," he said in a statement, quote, as i said in the past, the wisconsin electors were simply following the guidance of wisconsin legal counsel to preserve the ongoing wisconsin legal strategy. there was no intent beyond that, and i am happy to participate in this process to clarify any confusion that may exist. and that is where we start this

hour. joining us now is congresswoman zoe lofgren of california. she is a member of the january 6th select committee. no one's confused. the opportunity you've given the fake electors is to come explain how they went about submitting fraudulent slates to the national archives, is that right? >> yes, and not just that. obviously, this was a coordinated effort, a multistate effort. the documents, the fake documents are similar, and we'd like to know who coordinated this, who asked them to do this. and many other questions. >> so, we've heard from the voicemails trump campaign officials on the phone with the electors, we've seen from some of the documents mark meadows turned over to the committee before defying his subpoena, what are the dots you still want to connect more firmly? >> well, we want to know who was

behind this plot to overturn the election. this didn't just randomly happen that, you know, people in various states decided, well, i guess i'll just do a bogus certificate. no. this was coordinated and planned, and we'd like to know every aspect of that. you know, we understand that various law enforcement agencies are looking into this, but that can't deter us from actually exploring the role that this played in the overall plot to overturn the election. so, you know, there's more than one way to get information, as you know, regrettably, mr. meadows has not complied with the subpoena, we've referred that to the department of justice, but certainly, you know, he spoke to people, so i'd like to know, you know, did he -- who did communicate to these individuals and what was

the intent? and i think a clear picture is starting to emerge about what the intent was. >> congresswoman, the pressure campaign on pence gets covered sometimes in isolation, but pence doesn't have a move unless the eastman memo is carried out step by step and the first line of that memo, we looked at it again today, is seven states shall submit alternate electors. what is it about -- if you don't have eastman's fulsome cooperation yet, is it the strategy to just go to all seven slates and get it from them instead or first? >> well, as you know, we got a very favorable decision in the district court in california going to chapman college to get data, get documents from dr. eastman from chapman where he was employed. i'll say further that in deciding the case, the judge

basically discarded all of the bogus arguments that he had made about privilege. so, we still expect to hear from dr. eastman, but meanwhile, as i said earlier, there's ways to find out information. clearly, the vice president was not prepared to overturn the election. he did his own research and understood that that is not a role that the vice president is permitted to play under the constitution. it looks pretty clear that as that became known, there was an effort to try and postpone the decision rather than simply go to the alternates and so that the former president could stay in office past january 20th. it's really extraordinary what we're uncovering. >> yeah, and i mean, you alluded to the executive order that's been reported on by some, and we had a chance to ask you some questions about that, but what

is public facing at least, to us, is you have a strategy that came so close to working and as you're saying, donald trump was just trying to buy time. it wasn't necessarily a plan for a whole second term, but the plan to buy time was so close. can you talk about the importance of these seven slates and the role they might have played had he succeeded, had pence left the building, had president biden's victory not been certified that day. >> well, you know, had we not reconvened that night, to do the count, i think the -- there was going to be an effort to try and derail the entire electoral college certificate plan, whether that would have succeeded, i don't know, but the -- it does look like the entire plan was that the loser of the election would retain power, really, contrary to our constitution and our proud

history as a democratic republic. >> when you look at the fake electors and their willingness to sign on to this seven state strategy outlined in line one of the eastman memo, and then you look at what more than 100 republicans did when they came back after the deadly coup attempt, what do you think? what do you feel? >> well, it's depressing, actually, to think that so many people had so little regard for the constitution and for our democracy. i think some -- it's possible that some of those you described were confused as to what their obligations were, but certainly some of them knew well and discarded their obligation to the constitution. so, it's a wake-up call to everyone. as you know, we're taking a look

at potential revisions to the electoral count act and other things that we might do to protect ourselves, but the truth is, we rely on americans to love our country and to love our constitution and to be loyal to it. that can't be legislated. that's got to be something that we all take as a responsibility. >> the unwillingness of a loser to concede. i worked for john mccain, who i think felt like one of the most important speeches he ever gave was his concession speech to president-elect obama, and i wonder how you fix one party that's broken in terms of not believing in the transfer of power, the person that loses yielding to the person who won. >> well, it's a surprising sort of fever that's gripped the republican party and transformed them into something that doesn't

look like the traditional republican party. that said they stood for conservative values. it's not conservative values to trash the constitution. so, it's concerning. i think our country's well served when we have two strong political parties who can present to the american people divergent policy options but that's not what we have right now. we have some of the -- i don't want to say everyone, because there's certainly plenty of republicans in the country that are loyal to the constitution, but many of the leaders are unwilling to stand up and say, no, we have a constitution that we have to honor, and we're not going to go down this road that leads to authoritarianism. >> congresswoman, did you take deputy attorney general lisa monaco's comments about not commenting on an ongoing investigation when asked about whether she was investigating some of these matters about the

fake electors, as confirmation that they had received these referrals from state ags and were indeed examining and scrutinizing those cases and potentially investigating them? or is it really sort of a firewall between your work and hers? >> i think there is a firewall, and you know, the department of justice rules are if they're investigating something, they don't talk about it. if they have a case, they file it. and otherwise, they don't talk about it. and i think that's the way it should work. and i presume that that's what is occurring now. >> congresswoman zoe lofgren, thank you so much for starting us off today. >> thank you. let's bring into our coverage michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson. madam secretary, you provided some evidence or some of what we know about this pressure campaign in michigan. talk about it. >> well, yeah, i mean, first of all, note that we lived this in

december of 2020. we were in -- and i as the chief election officer were creating a shield over multiple efforts that could or could not have been coordinated but our job was just to protect the results of our election in that month leading up to january 6th, and so in the aftermath, we have been -- and we kept the receipts as there were various nefarious attempts to block or intervene with the will of the voters with the certification of our elections at the state and local level and with the determination of the electors, and now that there is a investigatory body, the january 6th committee, that is asking and casting a broad net, asking for evidence and indication of a coordinated attempt, we are providing all the materials that we have at our disposal and collected from some of what you have heard, the slates of electors that were fraudulent and submitted to the national archives, you know, outside the scope of what the law allows, and also, you know,

other things like a reminder that rudy giuliani was in michigan ten days before on december 2nd, testifying before a legislative hearing, and you know, who else did he talk to while he was there? how did sidney powell get access to legal documents from a local municipality that she was not a part of and that were under seal at the time she received them and passed them along to the u.s. supreme court. there's a lot of unanswered questions, and i'm grateful that the january 6th committee has been a repository for the evidence that we have in michigan that suggests there's more coordination than perhaps we were previously aware of. >> madam secretary, do you think someone inside michigan state government handed over to sidney powell documents inappropriately, and is that something you've referred for investigation? >> that -- we have suggested further investigation into how members of the trump campaign got the documents they did, and also who directed who in the state of michigan to do things that were interfering with our ability to just protect the will

of the people. and so i think the bottom line is there's a lot of unanswered questions. there's a lot of suggestions of collusion and connection that investigation -- further investigation, i think, will reveal. we're not an investigative body in the department of state. we are simply charged with administering and securing elections, and i'm grateful again that there is an investigative body that is going to be looking further into the evidence that we and other states have to draw the lines of connection and seek accountability for those who are part of this unprecedented effort to overturn the results of a presidential election. >> and i want to just make sure we're being super clear. i mean, what's unanswered in your view is specific chain of command because it was reported at the time and never denied that donald trump was reaching deep into michigan, asking them to send in votes for him. we know that an alternate slate that represented the opposite of the will of the voters in michigan was turned in to the

national archives and then returned. there's a lot we do know. we have voicemail messages from donald trump campaign officials to republican electors asking them to fraudulently sign on as electors for trump, so just specifically, which sort of circuits are you looking to see corroborated and closed? >> i think this question of who recruited the electors, what were they told? why were they recruited, and how far up the chain did the idea for this entire scheme go, and who are all the people who approved of it? it's part of making those connections of the who and the how and the what and the motivations and who's culpable for what, but it's also ultimately about seeking clear consequences for everyone involved. and so, part of the work right now is making those connections but also connecting that to what was illegal and again, with an eye towards how can we be prepared for and prevent this from happening again? so, the connectivity is one piece of it, but there are other things that, you know, we want

to see emerge from this process, accountability being one of them, and support for protecting our system against this ever happening again. >> in michigan, is it getting easier or harder to do this, to submit a phony slate of electors? >> i think it's easier than it was in december of 2020 when we didn't know where to go with this information. i think it's important to remember that we couldn't necessarily just call the justice department in december of 2020 because we didn't know who was a part of what, and so now, again, i'm grateful that there's a bipartisan committee in congress who is, through all of our communications, clearly casting a wide net to uncover everything. many things we may not even know of at this point, of connectivity and culpability for an attempted coup in our country. so, that said, it's easier because there are more people helping to uncover the truth and seek accountability, but it's still challenging because the

misinformation that has seeped into our state and other states and really impacted many voters has continued unabated, and we are also still going to see this year through this election cycle to what extent has the efforts to deceive voters about the truth of the 2020 election landed in such a way that it could affect the outcome of future elections. >> what question should the investigators on the 1/6 committee ask the fake elector from michigan -- i don't have the names right in front of me, but what documents should they seek, and what questions should they ask? >> i think the first question is who? who asked you to do this? and in what way, and were you promised anything? was there any exchange or, you know, promises made? why? what was your motivation here? all of what you are seeking to accomplish, were you aware of the ultimate goal of this plan, which we saw unfold on january 6th in our united states capitol? i think, you know, all of those

things and more are questions that we hope to see answered, again, with an eye towards accountability and consequences and also prevention for the future. >> michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson, thank you very much for jumping on and spending some time with us today an this breaking news. when we come back, the pentagon warns that russia has enough troops in place to invade all of ukraine, even as russia's foreign minister denies wanting war. how the biden administration and our european allies are working to defuse what is an increasingly tense situation. that's next. plus the top medical official in the country's third most populous state is unwilling to answer this simple question. are coronavirus vaccines effective? we've got the video. we'll roll the tape and talk about the growing outrage over the right wing's newest vaccine disinfo campaign. and later in the show, tens of millions of people on the east coast are bracing for what could be a monster snowstorm or could not be a monster

snowstorm. how big will it be? no one is able to say for sure. we'll ask our meteorologist why that is and what we might be able to expect later in the hour. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. e white hous e white hous after a quick break.way in the world today♪ ♪takes everything you've got♪ ♪ ♪taking a break from all your worries ♪ ♪wouldn't you like to get away? ♪ ♪ ♪ sometimes you want to go ♪ ♪where everybody knows your name ♪ ♪ ♪and they're always glad you came ♪

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this is larger in scale and scope in the massing of forces than anything we have seen in recent memory. we strongly encourage russia to stand down and to pursue a resolution through diplomacy. armed force should always be the last resort. war is not inevitable, as the

secretary said. the right answer here is a diplomatic solution. >> that was chairman of the joint chiefs, mark milley, urging russia to opt for a diplomatic solution as the west awaits the next move by vladimir putin. russia has now amassed about 130,000 troops on the border of ukraine. u.s. intelligence officials speculate that the kremlin has drown up plans for possible military operation that could commence in the next month. but the u.s. and nato allies continue to work the diplomatic back channel, hoping to avoid any kind of military conflict as tensions continue to rise. this morning, russian foreign minister sergei lavrov doubled down, saying his country did not want war and that america's written responses sent earlier this week to russian demands contained, quote, a kernel of rationality but the real question is still what will vladimir putin do? french president emmanuel macron spoke with putin on the phone greeting on a continued dialogue

for de-escalation, according to the readout from france. however, the kremlin's response was much less optimistic, saying this. the principal concerns of russia remain unaddressed. joining us now is ben rhodes, former deputy national security advisor to president obama, now an msnbc contributor and miles taylor is back, the cofounder and executive director of the renew america movement. first, just your thoughts on, you know, we cover what people are saying. i'd love to understand, ben rhodes, what, in your view, you think people are doing, what's actually happening right now. >> well, the reality is there have been kind of two tracks. there's the reality on the ground, which has been this steady build-up by russian forces encircling ukraine. that includes significant deployments into belarus, a neighboring country, that gives russia the capacity to attack from a different angle and putin has kind of a puppet leader in

lukashenko in belarus. it includes not just tanks and heavy weapons but logistics, medical supplies, blood, the things you would need to sustain an invasion and the kind of things that have nothing to do a military exercise of any kind. while putin's been doing that, there have been ongoing diplomatic channels, the one with the united states which has not yielded results because united states is not going to concede and france and germany have been in the lead in recent years in discussions about the situation in eastern ukraine. however, we haven't seen anything from those diplomatic discussions that leads us to believe anything more than the fact that they're talks for the sake of talk. you don't really see them resolving any of the underlying tensions, so right now, if you're looking clearly at the situation as the biden administration is, what you're seeing is a methodical, steady build-up that seems to fore shadow an inevitable invasion and until there's an off ramp taken by vladimir putin, that's what we have to expect and prepare for.

>> i want to read you something that america's ambassador to russia, john sullivan, said this morning. quote, it's the equivalent of the you and i were having a discussion or a negotiation. if i put a gun on the table and say that i come in peace, that's threatening. sullivan told reporters, and that is what we see now. my question for you, miles taylor, is, all of this always comes down, according to experts, to putin will do what putin will do. president biden said, nobody really knows what that is, including vladimir putin. what does an administration do with, you know, in that sort of madman strategic framework where you don't really know what the adversary is going to do and there's a sense from intelligence, people around him don't necessarily know either. >> well, you know, i suspect ben might agree with me here on this point, that when it comes to vladimir putin, if it walks like a duck and if it talks like a duck, it's a duck. they're amassing forces, you

know, several months ago, they said it was for an exercise. this is not for an exercise. this is for an intended invasion, right? a bank robber doesn't walk into chase bank with a ski mask and multiple weapons and say, i'm here to make a deposit. and gets taken seriously. that's not what the russians are doing. i think we know vladimir putin's intent here, and as far as the administration's response, you know, i've talked to diplomats in the region, diplomats in kyiv right now who have said they think the biden administration is largely striking a lot of the right notes, but one of the common things that i am seeing is that they feel like the administration needs to be more forward leaning. now, to be clear, we are on the cusp, potentially, of the largest military offensive in europe since world war ii. so, there are diplomats there on the ground in kyiv who believe that the biden administration actually needs to start delivering consequences now, needs to potentially start moving forward with sanctions now, and even equally as

importantly to stop pulling people out and start putting people in. so let me be a little bit more clear. right now, the administration is pulling out diplomats and spies. instead, there are folks on the ground who think what they need to be doing is sending more people and more military advisors to make clear to the russians that we will put up a front. we won't let this happen. and we will back our allies in ukraine. that's important and it's also important that the administration continue to pull together nato allies and especially put pressure on the germans to step up to moscow. >> ben, what do you think about all that? >> well, i think that the most important thing here is, look, the reality is, we have an article v commitment to nato allies, and that includes countries on russia's border like the baltic states. that means we would go to war with american troops with that commitment if there was a russian invasion of that territory. the reality is, what everybody knows, is that the united states does not have that commitment to ukraine. we're not going to go to war over ukraine, and the american people are not at all prepared

for that contingency, so what do you have? what can possibly deter vladimir putin in this decision moment? what can deter him is the scale of the cost that he thinks he might face if he invades. and so to me, the single most important thing that you can do in that regard is signal the strongest possible unity with european allies around the strongest possible sanction. so, i agree with the idea that germany, for instance, has been a holdout on those sanctions. you want to be able to say, in channels to the russians, this is what you're going to face. i think that's more important than imposing some sanctions. now, what's most important is the scale of what russia might face in terms of costs if they do invade. look, putin could overreach here and i think he is overreaching here in the sense that if he does a full-scale invasion of ukraine, he could be facing a lengthy and bloody and costly insurgency. if he does invade ukraine, he could face sanctions that could cripple the already weak russian economy and render him in a much

weaker position over time, domestically inside of russia. look, i think when it comes to diplomats, you know, we have had the order departure for people if they want it and we haven't seen a lot of diplomats leaving, and so there, i think, it's just the prudent thing to do, to alert americans who are traveling there and americans at the embassy that they have the option of leaving and there's a danger involved in being there. but the reality that we're dealing with, the cards that we're playing, and i think the administration is playing them about as well as you can, is that the only deterrent we have is signaling the cost of what putin will face if he goes in. and it may be that even with that signal, putin decides to do this anyway, because this is of a piece of 20 years of putin's steady escalation in seeking to reverse the dissolution of the soviet union, the invasion of georgia, the invasion of crimea in 2014. i think what's different here, of course, is that this is a much larger scale of force, and that's what general milley was saying today. we did not see this in 2014.

in 2014, we saw special forces moving into crimea and support from russia blowing into russian-backed separatists inside of ukraine. we did not see this mechanized massing of a land force that could lead to the largest land war we've seen on the european continent in decades and that's why you want to make sure the alliance sends a message they're going to face the strongest possible response if they go in. >> i want to read something else that ben has put into the conversation today in "the atlantic." it's called "this is no time for passive patriotism." ben writes this. there is no sense in avoiding or diluting the magnitude of this turn in our story. one major political party no longer accepts democracy. this one's unthinkable political outcome underscores the extent to which we no longer have a shared sense of national identity. to put this in the starkest terms possible, americans are now bound together by the presence of a federal government in loss but not by a shared sense of what it means to be american. this is a recipe for sustained

political instability and social disruption if not outright conflict. i thought about that, miles, as i sort of watched the briefings today, that it's a herculean task for any president or sort of pentagon leadership to take the country into any conflict, to put troops on heightened alert, but a particularly steep climb in a country that doesn't have a shared story anymore, that, as ben writes, no longer accepts democracy. can you talk about the damage done by the administration in which you served and how that specifically makes this administration's task harder right now. >> well, i absolutely think it does, and i think, to ben's point, probably the best example we have of that of the moment is what tucker carlson is saying over at fox news. i mean, you've got people like tucker, who previously probably would have described themselves as defense hawks in the time of

george w. bush, who are now going on tv and acting as vladimir putin apologists. i mean, they're basically parroting the lines of donald trump, and that's creating deep, deep schisms in our democracy. i mean, look, you know, people like ben and i probably even though we disagree politically and we're from different parties, align around the idea that america stands for free minds, free markets, free people. we defend those things around the globe. the moment that one political party in the united states starts to undercut that democratic consensus is a real sign of deep, deep foundational, perhaps even fatal threats to our democracy. that's what i worry about. but i want to give you one note of hope here. as much as there are fringe elements on the right that are becoming mainstream elements, that are trying to push aside these issues and divide us over things like ukraine and the defense of democracy, we may actually see some glimmers of hope in what ben just noted, our

adversaries overreaching. vladimir putin is constantly portrayed in the western press as someone who is a master chess player against us. well, here's the reality. by doing this, by going into ukraine, if he goes forward with an invasion, vladimir putin is welcoming major potential political, economic, and military down sides that could ultimately undermine his rule. politically, it could have the unintended effect of bringing nato together. nato's been divided in recent years. the west has been divided. this could bring us together around a shared objective. economically, it could do great damage to the russian economy and to the russian people, and militarily, as ben also suggested, as soon as body bags start arriving back on to russian territory, this could have a really serious impact on the russian psyche and ultimately undermine vladimir putin. so while in the near term, i would project this is really bad news for the west and of course especially bad news for ukraine, in the medium term, perhaps, this is a catalyst to bring us

back together around shared values and undo some of that damage of donald trump and his enablers. >> ben rhodes and miles taylor, thank you so much for spending time with us on this today. when we come back, the far-right fever swamps of florida where even the state's top health official can't or won't say whether coronavirus vaccines really work. that story after a quick break. vaccines really work that story after a quickre bak what happens when we welcome change? we can transform our workforce overnight out of convenience, or necessity. we can explore uncharted waters, and not only make new discoveries, but get there faster, with better outcomes. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change-- meeting them where they are,

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joseph ladipo, who is not actually confirmed yet, has been serving as florida's surgeon general for months, despite his very public questioning of the pandemic, questioning of the safety of covid vaccines and masks, which he refused to wear even when meeting with the state senator who was just diagnosed with cancer and who asked him to do so. but this week, florida republicans on a senate committee there voted to recommend ladapo to continue in his job officially, despite all that, and despite fumbling over some of the most basic questions about the vaccine. here's just part of that exchange, which led state democrats to walk out in protest. >> do you believe that vaccines in fighting against a pandemic like covid-19 are effective? >> thank you for your question, senator.

so, again, i would say that the question is a scientific one, and it's one that is answered with data. so, the question is informed by data on, you know, on specific outcomes and specific therapies. so, that's -- that's the scientific question. >> just a yes or no. do vaccines work in fighting against covid-19? yes or no? >> you're recognized. >> senator, i just -- as a scientist, you know, i'm compelled to answer the scientific question, and i would be happy to answer any specific scientific question that you have related to vaccines and covid-19. >> scientifically, do vaccines -- do the vaccines work

against preventing covid-19? yes or no? >> recognized. >> okay. well, thank you again, senator. so, you know, yes or no questions are not that easy to find in science. >> yes, they are. 68%. 68% likely to keep you out of the hospital if you're vaccinated and boosted. i'm not a scientist. so, he gets there eventually. we don't want to make you suffer through it, but ultimately, he admits, reasonable effectiveness against hospitalization and death. from the vaccine. but it's a fair question that deserves a simple answer from the one guy that they're considering to be the state of florida's top medical guy. in the middle of our worst covid surge ever and in the state where more than a third of the population is not fully vaccinated. joining us now is basil smikle,

democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college. also joining us, david jolly, the national chairman of the serve america movement as well as an msnbc contributor. david jolly, politicizing science isn't just trump talking about bleach in the lungs, something so demonstrably clownish and stupid that you can read on debra burke's face that it's stupid and really only a teeny bit of his most ardent followers went ahead and injected bleach to clean their lungs. just a few. thank god. what's a lot more frightening to me is someone who sort of presents as a scientist, equivocating on whether or not vaccines can spare you death and sickness. what is happening in florida that this is their guy? >> well, i think the surgeon general nominee is quickly becoming a national embarrassment for the state of

florida, and you can chalk it up, somewhat, to the -- call it the pandemic of lunacy that is infecting today's gop, that you simply have to deny the reality of covid. you have to deny science. you have to deny the competence of our leading public health officials for political purposes, but i would also say politically, nicole, something very interesting here is the emerging wedge issue on the vaccine between ron desantis and donald trump. i mean, consider this. does the florida governor agree that donald trump's operation warp speed was successful or not? welcome to the big leagues, ron desantis. tell us. i mean, you nominated somebody who suggests that the vaccine that was a result of all of these federal resources that were commandeered by the former president is not something you're going to recommend to the people of florida, nor recognize its efficacy. so, there is the public health tragedy in a surgeon general who is, frankly, harming floridians by not recognizing the efficacy

of the vaccine, but there's also the political intrigue. is this a wedge issue now that ron desantis wants between him and maga nation and between him and the former president, and i would suggest that the surgeon general is doing the governor of florida's bidding on this, and governor desantis is willing to make vaccines a wedge issue between him and donald trump. >> i mean, basil, that is some sick, fill in your expletive, because the victims won't be loser of the political arm wrestle. the loser will be people who accept their disinformation, and i think there is and was a legitimate debate about how open to be, especially once there was a way to protect yourself, once there was a way to be vaccinated and boosted and once -- and i wish all kids could have access to the vaccine. we're not complete yet as a population because if you have a baby under 5, you can't protect him or her. but there probably was a place to have a legitimate debate about how open to be and to at least after everyone was

vaccinated, how to balance out small business aspirations and whatnot. there's no space to lie about the efficacy of the vaccine. none. zero. it is 68% more likely to keep you from dying and going to the hospital. full stop. >> that's right. and senator lauren book, who was asking those questions of the surgeon general nominee, said in an interview that she thought he was doing some kind of verbal jiujitsu, clearly not very well, to -- and it is uncomfortable to watch because he's clearly, you know, sort of, to touch on david's point earlier, he seems like he's trying to walk a line here. i mean, it's very clear that he's torn -- i mean, i assume that the gentleman is smart and accomplished in his own right. but also seems to be incredibly torn between what he would want to answer versus what answers are -- have been likely given to him to say. and that's what's -- that's

what's really troubling. i have a colleague who's a professor who said to me that he's concerned now that in his american public policy class, one lecture is going to focus on democratic back sliding, and that's certainly an issue that does need to be raised, you know, certainly according to your question and tease of this segment, that the quality of our democracy, the quality of the folks who are getting into public service and disseminating these messages, at least for one party, is wanting. and it is concerning because it does affect actual, real people and the chilling effect that i'm concerned that it has is that, you know, several months ago, there were a lot of what i would call vaccine crusaders or vaccine warriors, folks that were going out and saying, man, you need to get vaccinated, but there are so many people i hear from now that are saying, you know what? i'm done. i'm done having this conversation. i'm done talking to people about it. if you want to take that risk,

fine. i don't want you infecting me and getting me sick so i'm going to change my behavior to avoid you. and so, when we start to engage in sort of larger behavioral patterns because one party refuses to actually tell the truth, and to allow people who are assumed to be talented and smart in their own right, to be able to actually do the things that they had trained to do, then we are backsliding as a democracy, and that is incredibly troubling. but yeah, i think, you know, the concern certainly is for the people who are most affected by this who are certainly still vulnerable by this virus, and -- but i don't see it changing any time soon. >> yeah, no, it's getting worse and now we also have the data that people who live in counties that went for trump are more likely to get sick and die and be unvaccinated. i mean, the guy talked about data. there's a lot of it. and none of it is pretty. basil, david, thank you so much

for spending a little bit of time with us today. nice to see you both. when we come back, two inches, two feet, not so sure. we know a big snowstorm is heading up the east coast, roaring up the east coast, actually, but forecasters have left it to us to choose our own snow adventure in terms of just how big it will be and where it will hit. our meteorologist is going to try to save us from that after a quick break. going to try to save us from that after a quick break.

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as i mention this weekend, a giant winter storm is heading for the east coast. but i saw this one tweet from nbc news that wasn't helpful. new york city could see between two inches and 20 inches of snow this weekend. thanks a lot. >> i know. >> pretty big range. who is making the predictions? the cdc. six feet, three feet, ten days, five days. we don't know. >> so the east coast is bracing for a massive winter storm. 65 million people from maine to south carolina are under winter warnings or watches as a nor east ser expected to make landfall in a few hours. first new york and new england could see a foot of snow but there is lot we don't know about the storm. for answers we turn to meteorologist bill carrins.

i responded to your tweet, it feels like this choose your own adventure. and here is the european model, when did we start choosing our own model for snowstorms? >> well, i mean, if you follow it close enough, you will get your favorite ones that maybe you rely on. but none of them are right all of the time and that that is why we have different ones. we're smarter now. and if i said two to 20 inches i'd be right and i could take credit for it. it took us a while to learn that. but in all reality, a lot of times when you're out two or three days before a snowstorm, the range is pretty high. most forecasters don't like to give a snow forecast until you're within 24 to 36 hours. so, now that we're ome about 12 to 24 hours before the event, now we could fine tune it for you. so let me get into the specifics. it is snowing descently, in d.c. our storm is just a baby storm,

tonight will become a nor'easter and then tomorrow it will become a blizzard and go through the process, a bombogenesis, all that means is it is a winter storm that will rapidly form and strengthen. almost every single hurricane undergoes a similar process. so it is nothing new eep though it is a new buzzword term. all of the purple, that is the highest impact. that is the blizzard warnings from maine through cape cod, portions of connecticut, and jersey shore and delaware and maryland. that where people will be stranded on the roads because of three to four foot snowdrifts. that is the area of greatest concern. d.c., baltimore, philadelphia, you'll yet some snow, just stay off the roads in the morning. new york city, but stay off the roads until later in the day. it is long-term and the jersey shore and areas east of hartford toward boston that could get a

high impact blizzard. and the last time boston had a blizzard like this, we had 22 fatalities and a billion dollars worth of damage. so these are not just fluffy storm to play in so they could be serious and fatal. and 18 to 24 inches would put boston in the top ten all-time snowstorms. so philadelphia is like four to eight inches, but boston you're like, okay, now we need the batteries, groceries and prepared without power and how will we heat our house. so it gets more serious when you get that much snow and also when you deal with winds that will going to be that high. the airports will have major issues tomorrow. a lot of flights were already canceled. the winds could gust as high as 60 miles per hour, maybe to 70 and that is going to cause power outages on cape cod up to boston. scattered power outages from areas like the hampton and into boston. and nicolle, this is the other story out there. i don't know if you have any friends in florida, but can he can't stop talking about this. because this storm as it moves

past is going throw some bitterly cold air out of canada down into florida this weekend. sunday morning, windchills will be in the teens and 20s. i'm really apologizing to anyone if they took a little mini vacation to florida this weekend from the north. because miami, wind chill in the 20s, nicolle, come sunday morning. that is painful by florida standards. >> and to all of our friends who are down there wintering, nana nana. and we're grateful for you doing that. we were having confusion about what is coming our way and we hope you feel better soon. >> thank you. we also have a little bit of breaking news to end our hour and the week with. the january 6 committee has just subpoenaed former president trump white house judd deer exciting his knowledge of

president trump before and while the capitol was under attack. the committee is seeking doctors from there deer and a deposition next month from him. they say he helped with formulating the white house's response to the january 6 attack as it occurred. it is a quote according to the panel's level, the commit said it wants to discuss the january 5th staff meeting in the oval office with the president. david jolly is back with us. you learned so many about what the committee knows from the letters that they sent to the people they still want to talk to. and we've talked a lot, kayleigh mcenany complied with her subpoena, a deposition by zoom. other senior officials have already talked. and it is clear that step by step, interview by interview, they're getting a complete picture of what went on in this white house. this is about a meeting on january 5th. >> that is right, nicolle. and it is clear that continuing to circle the wagons around donald trump himself.

each subpoena getser and closer to somebody that could speak not just to donald trump's frame of mind and consciousness of guilt but what were the elements of planning and execution. it took planning and coordination to plan the events that became the rally. but also to coordinate that for a sense with false electors and with -- did they know that embedded in the crowd on january 6 would be the proud boys and other elements. those are real questions. and i think the most reassuring part of all of the subpoenas we're seeing and the request to interview is this, nicolle, i've worked with the congress for 30 years now and i don't believe i've seen a committee more aggressive with more complex matters, we talk about how doj is engaged in one of the furthest reaching investigations into the department's history as a result of january 6. i believe the united states congress is as well. hundreds of thousands of documents, hundreds of subpoenas and requests to interview, this is incredibly detailed work that

the january 6 committee is doing and i think it all leads to who we know, one person who is the former president donald trump. >> and it makes clear that their now literally in the room. david jolly, thank you so much for spending some time with us and for coming back to talk to us about this breaking news. an thanks to all of you for lets us into your home all week long. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. you have many news to work with. >> it is a big week and i hope you have a great weekend, nicolle. >> you too. stay safe in this sort of choose your own blizzard adventure weekend we have here in new york. >> that is true on a lot of the east coast. we'll see what happens. stay warm. i want to welcome into the beat and i'm ari melber. there is a big legal development in atory reported a lot right here on msnbc with rachel maddow tracking that