good to see you. and good evening at home. welcome to ayman. the january 6th committee has subpoenaed so-called presidential electors all with the intent of overturning the 2020 election. tonight we are going to dig deep into that story. plus all the georgia story lines left hanging from 2020. and we're going to get into the future of the supreme court and the legacy of stephen breyer. so much of his story seems to hinge on a relic of the past, bipartisanship. plus the conflict between russia and ukraine has america on the edge of its seat, but what's responsible for an apparent disconnect between the u.s. and ukraine? we're going to explain that and a whole lot more. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. all right, so we are tracking major developments in the investigation into the plot by trump and his allies to overturn the results of the 2020 election. 14 of the so-called alternate

electors who falsely claim trump won the election in their states. in a statement released yesterday chairman benny thompson says the committee wants to know how these individuals were brought together and who actually put them up to this scheme. here's how this plot was supposed to play out. on december 14, 2020, the legitimate electors around the country gathered to cast their votes for joe biden. now, at the same time groups of people who back trump gathered in seven key battleground states that trump lost in a sham attempt to cast electoral votes for trump. these groups then submitted official looking documents to federal and state authorities. the submission of those documents as if they were legitimate is one of the key things here. don't forget that point for a second. if they knowingly submitted false documents that is a crime. the state of georgia is one of the focal points of this scheme, and given the number of unresolved issues with the 2020

election in the peach state you can be sure we're going to keep hearing about georgia in the coming weeks and months. and case in point, on monday a judge approved a request from the fulton county district attorney to impanel a grand jury for her investigation into whether trump illegally tried to alter the results of the vote in georgia. the investigation was prompted in part after audio of trump begging georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger to find him 11,000 votes, and that surfaced in the weeks after the election. now, when you take a look at what's been going on in georgia over the last year, it becomes clear to anyone that many republican officials are unwilling or unable to move forward. how can they when former president trump is still out for revenge against anyone who dared to speak the truth about his loss. remember in the months after the election amid all the claims of fraud in georgia, republicans lost not one but two united states senate seats in that state.

and instead of moving on and undergoing an honest assessment of why their party lost in 2020, what did republicans do? they doubled down. passing some of the toughest voting restrictions in the country, taking over election processes in democratic strong holds in and around atlanta. you'll also remember georgia governor, brian kemp, found himself in the trump doghouse for certifying the results of the 2020 election. and of course now he faces a tough primary challenge from former senator david perdue who as you can imagine secured trump's endorsement for his willingness to spout nonsense and lies about the election in georgia. now, on top of all of that a popular conspiracy theory about supposed vulnerabilities to georgia's voting machines has continued to live on. u.s. district judge amy toltenberg is now reviewing a

report by an election security expert that details how georgia's electronic voting system could be manipulated and votes could be changed. to be clear this report concludes there's no evidence that happened in 2020, none. but the constant drum beat of a supposedly stolen election is already having real consequences. new polling finds only 25% of georgia voters are very confident that the result of the 2022 mid-term elections will be accurate. think about that for a second. let that sink in. 75% of georgians regardless of political party aren't sure they'll be able to trust the results of this year's mid-terms. if part of their goal was to undermine confidence in our elections going forward, congratulations, guys. mission accomplished. joining me now for more on the situation in georgia is tia mitchell. she's the washington correspondent for the atlanta journal of constitution. thank you so much for joining us this evening. let's talk about the situation

in georgia, my home state here for a moment. it sure seems like the 2020 election still dominates politics in this state. is that how you see it? i mean will georgia ever be able to move on from 2020 when you have the republican candidates, the primary republican candidates all running on rejecting the 2020 results? >> yes, especially on the republican side as you've mentioned. there are some republicans like governor kemp, like secretary of state raffensperger that have, you know, resisted continued efforts to undermine our election system by continuing to question the outcome of the 2020 election, but it seems like they're in the minority in the state gop. and you have many candidates running for statewide office who are either endorsed by former president trump or are trying to curry the former president's favor. and they are doing so by continuing to spread false information and disinformation about the election system that

includes questioning the outcome of the 2020 race even a year -- over a year later. >> one of the things that stood out to me is in addition to this lack of confidence in the upcoming 2022 election, that same polling i just mentioned a moment ago also find only 44% of primary voters would be more likely to vote for a candidate endorsed by trump. 50% said his endorsement didn't sway them at all. does that indicate to you trump's influence in georgia could be weakening or that he still has a very strong presence and a large shadow over republican politics? what does it say for the upcoming gubernatorial primary, for example? >> the hhc had a poll released a day before the quinnipiac poll and we had similar results. and i think it's a glass half full, half empty thing. on one point you could say over half of republicans wouldn't necessarily be swayed by a trump endorsement, but that means half

of them would and could. and again, we're talking about very competitive primaries in georgia later this year, and so you don't need half. you just need a few in some of these races. so the fact that, you know, 40% to 50% of republicans are looking to former president trump to at least give them an indication of who they should vote for, that is, you know, significant and could help sway some of those primaries. >> so what about this controversy around georgia's electronic voting systems i alluded to? it seems to be getting a little bit of attention. secretary of state raffensperger is being accused of ignoring the report's findings about vulnerabilities in the state systems. as i understand it, he's calling for the report to be released and says that georgia systems are secure. i'm curious to get your read on this situation. does this report give life to conspiracies around the security of our elections when brad raffensperger himself and even the governor have said georgia elections were absolutely secure in 2020?

>> i think what this controversy does is goes back to something that actually precedes the 2020 general election, and that's that there has always been this insistence from the republicans who control georgia to not go to paper ballots. that's something democrats had asked for. the system that was used in 2020 was new. and when they were choosing that system there were people who said why wouldn't you have people hand mark their ballots? it's more secure. it's less susceptible to fraud and, you know, someone who may want to -- you know, a bad actor, if you will. and that's not what the republicans who controlled the state chose to do. they chose to go with this new touch screen system. so now what you're seeing you're seeing people saying, well, this system still has vulnerabilities that could be taken advantage of. >> interesting. we're going to dig into this deep story about the fake

electors in just a moment with my next guest. but the two individuals the committee subpoenaed from georgia are david shafer and sean still, both of them pretty active in georgia republican politics, pretty senior within the republican party in georgia. what can you tell us about them, and have they said anything about their involvement in these efforts as to who compelled them to do this? >> at the time sean still was the secretary of state republican party. david shafer was and still is the chairman of the georgia gop. neither one of them responded to my colleagues when we asked for comment once the news of that subpoena dropped on friday, but in the past they have said that what they thought they were doing was moving forward in a way that would protect president trump's ability to continue to contest the outcome of the election. but as, you know, we've reported in the ajc and others have reported is it opened themselves up to possible, you know, legal repercussions because

particularly in georgia some of the states who submitted alternate electors, the paperwork said this is just in case we can use it in the future. georgia's paperwork did not have any just in case verbiage on it, so it was submitted in a way that looked like they were trying to tell those state and federal officials that, hey, we are the real true electors. and that is what could get them in trouble. >> interesting. the atlanta journal's tia mitchell. thank you for your insights. we'll be in touch as this story continues to develop. joining me now is nicholas wu, a congressional reporter for politico and covering extensively the story of the fake electors and the subpoenas that have been issued. nicholas, it's great to see you. in this statement about the subpoenas chairman benny thompson encouraged the individuals to cooperate with their investigation. what have you learned so far? do you think that's going to happen based on your reporting and early indications?

>> early indications show that the committee is still waiting to hear back from any of these folks. right after these came out from the wisconsin republicans indicated they might actually cooperate with this investigation here but with the caveat that they saw their acs at the time as consistent with the legal counsel of wisconsin republicans. and this is important because they're trying to put some distance between themselves and what the committee appears to be looking at here, which was whether there was any coordination between these alternate slates of electors and the trump campaign or even the white house. >> and as you point out in your piece for politico michigan secretary of state jocelyn benton expressed concern some of these individuals may have been duped by the people coordinating all of this. how likely do you think that is based on your reporting or what you've been learning? >> that's kind of an open question. i mean, whether or not these

folks really were true believers, yes, they were in fact the duly elected electors as some of these statements laid out or in fact this is why the committee sees it as particularly important to actually talk to these folks, to beable to ask them who put you up for this, what made you decide to pursue this course of action in the course of trying to contest the election? now, some republicans talk about doing this because of the precedence. in 1960 when hawaii's election actually resulted in the ultimate slate of electors. but the difference there was there was a recount going at the time. >> interesting to that point, nicholas, cnn and "the washington post" are reporting that rudy giuliani was in charge of this plan. you may have also caught this week my colleague, ari melber, spoke to boris epstein, another one of trump's lawyers and he admitted he was part of these

efforts. watch this. >> did you ever make calls like that regarding what you're calling these alternate electors? >> i was quoted in "the washington post" in the last 24 hours, yes, i was part of the process to make sure there are alternate electors when we hope the challenge to the seat of the electioners would be heard and successful. >> there's been a lot reported on this plot already. i'm curious to know what questions you have that are outstanding. what do we still not know about this plot at this point? >> what we still don't know is this broader coordination question. and we know that there were these alternate electors, the electors in each state for trump and pence rather than biden. but who put these folks up for it? who paid for them to come together? who provided actually the legal counsel that many of these folks say they were leaning on? these are some important questions, and this is something

the committee has tried to get at here especially by calling mr. epstein himself to testify before them. >> yeah. not only has trump's fake electors plot caught the attention of the january 6th committee, it seems it's also caught the attention of the department of justice now, which is investigating this. listen to the deputy attorney general lisa monaco earlier this week. >> in terms of fraudulent elector certifications has been reported, we've received those referrals. our prosecutors are looking at those, and i can't say anything more on ongoing investigations. but more broadly, look, the attorney general has been very, very clear. we are going to follow the facts and the law wherever they lead. >> so with the doj now involved, nicholas, is it more likely that people behind this scheme could face consequences as a result of that investigation as well? >> it's a little early to tell. i mean, as deputy attorney general monaco said just there

the mere fact that they got these referrals doesn't necessarily mean the department of justice is going to start prosecuting people. there's still a bit of time that has to pass as they investigate. the other interesting thing here that i reported i found the national archives own inspector general's office was pushing its own investigation into this matter. when i asked them the status of that they declined to comment but called it an ongoing matter. it shows there are multiple tendrils of this investigation beyond congress and into other branches of the federal government. >> yeah. and we've also been hearing from some of these attorneys general that if this department of justice doesn't pursue these investigations, they would be prepared to file charges. nicholas, great to see you, thank you so much for your reporting as always. coming up trump's muslim travel ban went into effect five years ago, but some families are

still being hurt by it. we're going to hear some of their stories. plus a look back at stephen breyer's journey to the highest court in the land and the changing nature of the supreme court. first richard lui here with the headlines. we've got new information this hour on that powerful storm, that nor'easter that hit the northeast. from new jersey to maine blizzard warnings still in effect, nearly are flights out of new york city they have been canceled so far. the new number this hour potentially 30 inches of snow in certain parts of new england, over 100,000 homes losing power in massachusetts alone. this is predicted to be one of the worst storms to hit the region in years. nbc's chris pollone in boston. and, chris, just watching the number of power outages, that number got a little bit better. it's now down about 90,000, so folks are working hard there in the northeast. >> reporter: yeah, they really are, richard. earlier today we saw upward of 116,000 power outages.

again, most of these are concentrated on cape cod, but the number is coming down, meaning those crews are out there and able to get some of those bucket trucks up and get some of the power back on. for the 90,000 or so that remain it's going to be a very cold night. there are warming centers. the state is working with local cities and counties to try and setup some warming centers for people to go to if they do not have heat overnight. obviously a dangerous situation for those folks. but massachusetts governor charlie baker thanking people for staying off the roads and saying give it a little more time. tomorrow, midmorning, he said people can start to venture out. but he wants crews here to cleanup the roads overnight. >> we're going to check in a bit later with more on this nor'easter. stick around, though, for more ayman with ayman mohyeldin right after this. after this woo! new personal record, limu!

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it's wireless that does it all and saves a lot. like a lot, a lot. so on thursday justice stephen breyer announced his nearly three decade run on the supreme court will soon come to an end. but breyer's time in washington started long before his ascension to the nation's highest court. in fact, president biden touched on his history with breyer during his remarks at the white house on thursday. >> i can't tell you this is sort of a bittersweet day for me. justice breyer and i go back a long way, all the way back to mid-'70s when he first came on the judiciary committee, but that's another story. >> so tonight i actually want to tell you that story because it's a story of bipartisanship that seems almost impossible to imagine in today's politics. back in the 1970s breyer was working as chief counsel to the senate judiciary committee under chairman senator ted kennedy.

there he formed a close working relationship with his republican counterpart often collaborating with the other party to craft legislation. that bipartisanship and that working relationship played a key role in helping him secure a seat on the u.s. court of appeals for the first circuit in 1980. lame duck president jimmy carter nominated him just days after ronald reagan was elected. now, republicans could have just waited it out, but they let the appointment go through confirming him 80-10. a lame duck president confirming a federal judge? in 2016 republicans wouldn't even let president obama confirm merrick garland despite having 11 months left in his term. hold on, this story actually gets even crazier because a decade later in 1993 when president bill clinton needed to fill a supreme court vacancy, he

actually called the ranking minority member of the senate judiciary committee, senator orrin hatch, and the gop senator, the republican senator suggested two names -- stephen breyer and ruth bader ginsburg. can you imagine that kind of call taking place in 2022? that's like joe biden picking up the phone and calling senator chuck grassly of iowa to ask for his advice and grassley actually offering a reasonable suggestion. that nomination would ultimately go to ruth bader ginsburg. but one year later clinton nominated hatch's other suggestion to the supreme court to fill another vacancy. >> by a vote of 87 ays, 9 nays, the nomination is confirmed. >> ian millhiser described the story how breyer ascended to the nation's highest court as, quote, a reminder of how our politics has changed over the past generation. so is the bipartisanship that played a key role in breyer's pathway to the court and later

served on the bench just a relic of the past? is it over? is it done? and if that's true what does that actually mean for the future of our politics? let's discuss that and a lot more with ian millhiser. great to have you with us, excellent reporting as always. great context and insight. let's talk a little about this. we just walked through how breyer ascended to the court, but let's talk about his legacy for a moment. what legacy does he leave behind? >> so the deal making skills that he showed when he was working in the senate, that was also what he brought to supreme court. you know, when there was a point when justice kennedy had written an opinion that would have killed affirmative action. justice sotomayor wrote a barnburner dissent to that opinion. and it was justice breyer who brokered a deal with beth of them that weakened affirmative action but kept it alive.

both signed onto that opinion. when chief justice roberts started to get cold feet about striking down the affordable care act, he reached out to breyer and justice kagen to broker a deal that, again, weakened affordable care act somewhat but left it mostly alive. so breyer's success on the court was often invisible, often the stuff he was doing quietly with his colleagues that was most significant. but it was very potent. and no one but stephen breyer decided why he decided to retire when he did, but i suspect it has a lot to do with the fact he's watching his new colleagues on this court and realizes those sorts of compromises and deals that used to be possible, that's just not something he's going to be able to do anymore. >> yeah. i mean, you bring up a really good point about whether or not the court has become increasingly politicized, and

breyer previously pushed back against calls for him to step down because he feared that it would in its very nature politicize the court. do you have any insight as to why he made this decision now after calls for him to retire? >> i mean, i can only speculate. again, i haven't spoken to justice breyer about this decision. but, i mean, i'm glad that he saw -- that he let reality slap him in the face. like last year, last june when a lot of people were pressuring him to retire, and he gave a lot of push back don't politicize the court. he suggested if he would have intentionally stepped down under a democratic president, it would make the court look partisan. and i don't know what happened over the course of the last six or seven months, but what i do know happened is he went through the oral argument that's probably going to end in roe v. wade being struck down. he went through the oral argument probably going to end in a massive expansion of the second amendment. you know, time and time again

this court has been behaving in a very ideological and very partisan way, and i imagine that must have been eye opening for him. you know, if i went through that my recognition would be, oh, god, i can no longer work with my colleagues. >> yeah, and there's precedence for it. previous justices have retired or stepped down when their party has had control knowing that they would be replaced by somebody within their party. it happened under president trump. let's talk about what comes next. this week president biden doubled down on his promise to appoint a black woman to the bench. can you tell us anything about the names that are being considered and the processes they're taking to evaluate them? >> so, i mean, there's several names in the mix. i think the two that are the most likely nominees, one is judge brown jackson a very well regarded judge in d.c. she sits on the d.c. circuit largely considered to be the

second biggest supreme court in the country. and she has the typical supreme court résumé. two harvard degrees, clerked for a supreme court justice herself, very, very smart. she would be a big favorite i think of criminal justice reformers. she played a big role in making our drug sentences less draconian when she sat on the federal sentencing commission. so she's, i think, the front-runner right now. the other name i'm hearing a lot of people mention is leandra kruger. she sits on the california supreme court. she has a reputation of being more conservative not in the sense that she is a republican but just very cautious, very committed to precedent, very committed to making incremental change. and so i think like the choice that biden's got to make here is whoever he nominates has got to be in the minority. they're going to be writing a lot of dissents. if you want somebody to plant a flag what the law should be in that opinion do you want someone

like judge jackson or do you want someone who may be able to find some common ground with the republicans who control the court? and in that case you might want someone more like justice kruger. >> unlike when breyer was actually confirmed you no longer need a supreme court majority to appoint supreme court justices thanks to mitch mcconnell. if democrats actually stick together and they don't need republican support, do you think any senator will cross the aisle and support biden's nominee, or do you think there may be a democrat or two, and i'm thinking of joe manchin, for example, who may not go with the democrats to give them the 50 votes they need. >> to answer your first, i think there's a few republicans who might vote to confirm the nominee if their vote isn't going to matter. so if 50 democrats have already said, yes, we're going to confirm this person i think someone like a susan collins or lisa murkowski might cast the 51st or 52nd vote.

i think it'll be harder for them to cast the 50th vote. i think this nominee will be confirmed only with a minimal amount of drama. manchin and sinema while they've been a pain for biden on a lot of issues have not been a problem on judicial nominees. and i think they have to know that the democratic party would turn en masse against the judiciary if biden can't fill this seat. >> incredible. we'll have to see how it plays out. ian millhiser, as always, good to see you. next, why some in russia are praising fox news host tucker carlson. we'll tell you about that. we'll tell you about that. or an intense burning sensation. what is this nightmare? it's how some people describe... shingles. a painful, blistering rash that c interrupt your life for weeks. forget social events and weekend getaways. if you've had chickenpox,

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with ukraine, almost 60% of democrats believe putin's actions to be a threat to u.s. interests, a view shared by 63% of republicans. not too bad considering these days we can't even agree whether cauliflower crust pizza even counts as real pizza. my hot take it's definitely not real pizza, and anyone who tells you it is lying. which brings us to tucker carlson because he's made no secret how he feels about vladimir putin's aggression towards ukraine. watch. >> the fact is ukraine is strategically irrelevant to the united states. no rational person could defend a war with russia over ukraine. why is it disloyal to side with russia but loyal to side with ukraine? they're both foreign countries who don't care anything about the united states. kind of strange. >> yes, that's right. that's the current standard bearer for the republican party siding with an authoritarian over a fledgling democracy. tucker's isolationist views are

out of sync with the mainstream republican party but his influence is being felt around the country. axios is reporting that republican campaigners working on the 2022 mid-terms are worried about alienating the base if they commit to a strong response to putin. new jersey congressman tom melnowsky said this week he's been getting calls from viewers of tucker's show who are upset we're not siding with russia. you know who else noticed all of this? russia. tucker's fellow progandists in russia are praising and some are even worried he might be going too far. there are such fans of tucker that according to the daily beast one russian host even says sometimes it seems he attends advanced training courses at the russian foreign ministry. i talk a lot on this show about the weakening of american democracy. we see it happening around the country as republicans pass laws

making it harder to vote. we see it when voting rights protections fail to make it out of the supposedly democratically controlled senate. now we're also seeing it when the host of the most watched cable news program tries to convince his audience of millions that america should abdicate its role as a defender of democracy around the world and side with russia. wit

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well, he was asking for it. prime changes everything. hours ago in ukraine artists, musicians, poets historians gathered at downtown kyiv's cafe. every afternoon locals share poetry and sip latte at an event called first coffee. and today was no different. now, if you've been following the news here in america you might be thinking ukraine, you mean the country that seems like it could be invaded by russia any day now? yes, i'm talking about ukraine and here's the thing the first coffee started eight years ago and been held every saturday since, rain or shine. you know what else happened eight years ago? russia seized crimea from ukraine and since then ukraine's forces have been at war with russian backed separatists in

the dombas in the eastern part of the country. 14,000 ukrainian soldiers have died since 2014, and yet life moves on because our minds can be accustomed to just about anything even a constant threat of invasion. but it is also highlighting a bit of cis connect between what american officials have telegraphed which is a russian invasion of ukraine is imminent and what the ukrainian officials have been saying, an invasion is not inevitable even if they're preparing for such a scenario. just this week kyiv's mayor announced the country will use the subway system as a massive bomb shelter if russia invades. but until then the train system is a way to get from point "a" to point "b." joining me now is a spokesman for the ukrainian congress committee. you have a better sense of the mood on the ground there than i certainly do. what is the mood amongst those in ukraine that you've spoken to?

it's important to note it's not a sense of complacency as it seems. many ukrainians are willing to fight for their country and willing to do so, but life is going on. >> it is sporadically different depending on where you are and what you're doing. i constantly need to remind my american friends if you start your car in montauk and drive all the way to cleveland you would not get to point as wide as ukraine. it is the largest country in europe. so if there's something happening on the eastern border, if there's an invasion -- and we all know ukraine is surrounded. there could be stuff in the south and north, but it's a large country. when i see something happening in south ohio i'm not really worried about it if i'm in saratoga, new york. but people are doing the basics, making sure they have a go back, making sure they have the contact information for all their children and family. they're contacting other people to let them know they're safe right now and going to keep on doing what they normally do because this has been the state

of ukraine for eight years. the scariest time in ukraine was 2014 when russia started invading and there was no functioning army. what ukraine has been doing for the last eight years is train for this moment. there are people manning the front lines, equipment, positions and that's what ukraine is going to do. they're going to defend the border. >> so i know you've probably seen the disconnect that i was referring to. you have u.s. officials on one hand describing this invasion as imminent, and it's emerged that the term itself as i understand it is causing some issues because there's no direct translation in ukrainian for the word "imminent." at least politico is reporting that's when biden's team might genuinely mean soon. it seems that's kind of for a lack of better word annoying him. >> well, these language issues i think we've had more than enough in the last two weeks. this weekend, yes, we're talking about imminent. last week we were talking about

major versus minor incursion. there's always something that comes up no matter who's the president here in the united states in terms of a possible rift in this relationship. and that is exactly what russia wants. and what ukrainian diplomats are doing, and you see it at the united nations where ambassador linda is working hand in hand with other people as we get up to the point of possibly having a u.n. security council briefing coming up shortly. that's where the real work happens. yes, we hear these press conferences by one president and another, but what's really important is the fact that there are still u.s. trainers on the ground working side by side with ukrainian soldiers. there are still tons and tons of material coming from the united states or those lethal defensive weapons that are coming over from our allies. so that's the important part beyond the language issue because the language issue is what you'll see on russian television as you mentioned in

the earlier plot. so, you know, that's what they want to see. they want to see tucker carlson even though he's a minority voice. they might put up a letter from the progressive caucus even though that's a minority voice. the main thing is that america and ukraine have been working together on this project because putin as we all know changed the constitution that he's going to be around for at least another 10, 15 years. this is an ongoing problem and what ukraine is doing is making sure they're defending themselves while not letting russia annually disrupt its economy. >> okay, so how do you interpret the comments by the ukrainian president? there seems to be that growing sense of frustration from zelensky there's a lot of discussion about ukraine and perhaps not so much discussion with ukraine. what is the sense from the ukrainians about what they think of russia and what action they want to see from the u.s. on this? >> well, there's several things that we know need to gelt done. one of them is obviously all the material that's coming over, all the defensive weapons and making sure that the troops have the equipment that they need. we also know the united states has been supplying air force

recognizance to make sure in realtime we know what is happening. right now russia is playing an enormous game of trying to lower the price of the ukrainian dollar. they're trying to manipulate it so the fact that people make a run in the markets. they're trying to make it so that people stock up on sundries and supplies while at the same time going ahead with a major and massive energy deal in congress. now, there's several members of congress and senators who have frankly flipped their position from several months ago in terms of being against the nordstream 2 pipeline, and that is frankly an affront to the ukrainian people the fact there are money interests trying to make money off this war instead of going ahead with the sanctions. >> thank you for joining us this evening. greatly appreciate your insights as always. next how former president

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reporter for huff post covering islamaphobia and immigration. thank you for so much for joining us. so incredible investigation. tell me more about the people you've spoken to, the profound impact this has had on human lives is unmeasurable. you say that in the course of your investigation there were 11 cases in which separation meant never again seeing a loved one because they died while the ban was in place. >> it's exactly that. it had a profound impact on the number of people. so over the last year i collected approximately 900 cases in which we've seen those profound impacts take various ap shapes and form. majority of them included some sort of family separation. so parents who were separated from their children like

mohammed or partners who were split apart. we also documented in more than 100 cases some sort of medical hardship and in our data that person impact faced more than one hardship so perhaps family separation and medical hardship like the case of mohammed. but beyond these numbers some of the impacts of the ban are simply unquantifiable. there are thousands more stories, people who have lost loved ones like mohammed, milestones like birthdays, funerals and weddings that were missed. some gave up on coming to the u.s. entirely and instead relocated to third countries. others were trapped in war zones. and so the data presents a photo -- a highlighting, just scratching the surface of the impact of the ban five years later, but there's so much more to say. >> a common misconception is that this was overturned by president biden and so as a result is no longer having an impact. just tell us how wrong is that assumption? how difficult is it today five years later for someone from a

muslim country to immigrate to the united states? >> well, first and foremost you have folks who will never get that opportunity again. so while the biden administration has revoked and reversed the ban that doesn't include everyone.ti diversity visa winners also known as the lottery who have won a visa to come to the u.s. during those years were essentially told to apply again, and that's a once in a lifetime opportunity. and the chances of them winning that visa again is slim to none. if you are lucky enough and the state department announced shortly after the ban was revoked they could seek a revised decision on their denial and a previous denial wouldn't y negatively impact their applications, there is currently a backlog of about a half a ve million.ns so the chances of your turn coming up is going to be quite some time. i was talking to another new yorker a couple of days ago who sought a revised decision despite the fact his application was denied not too long ago, and

he's still waiting for his wife and his children. so although the ban may be gone, not only just the logistical concerns have piled up, the backlog like i've mentioned also being slowed by the pandemic. but some of these people will not get the opportunities to see their families again. some of these people will not get the opportunity to make up for missed time.op and so while there can be some sort of revisions made, some families have said it's a little too late.vi >> well, what is your -- what is your perspective on the state of islamaphobia and anti-muslim ha sentiment in this country in thc post-trump era? how deep-rooted based on the reporting you have been mp compiling not just on this but across the board? >> when we look at policies like this one state sanctioned b islamaphobia in particular has long gone unchallenged. it comes and goes despite who's in power whether we have a democratic presidency or a republican presidency.

it's beyond immigration. it's issues like surveillance, informants, racial profiling while traveling and disproportionately impacted av muslim americans. so i think it's incredibly important the way we discuss, report and cover the muslim nk american communities that this politicized identity isn't just relevant when we're talking about one presidency or just d during election season or just during issues of national security because to be quite honest, ayman, all of these issues the state of islamaphobia existed before trump, going to exist after trump and gives us more of a reason to discuss these civil rights. >> is there anything that can be done to right this wrong? >> that's a question for the families. and i think we're making some progress when we're talking about the policies in place, but i think we need to continue to e remember that when we think of policies that we do put in place who are they actually helping and who are they hurting?

and when we're thinking about our laws in particular it is those who come from marginalized communities ultimately pay the price. >> thank you so much for this incredible investigation and putting a spotlight on it. and thanks for being with us this evening. all right, stick around. much more to come with my saturday night panel.ri don't go anywhere. scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good.

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