know before you get started on this sunday morning. the insurrectionist former president teases running for president again, this time on a platform of pardoning the people who attempted the violent overthrow of the united states government. another hour of "velshi" begins right now. good morning. it's all been straightened out. it's sunday 9:00 a.m. in the east, 6:00 a.m. out west. it's been a little more than a year since a violent mob of the former president's supporters carried out a deadly attack on the nation's capitol. but if you were hoping that they would feel even a shred of remorse for their actions, this is not your day. at his latest rally in texas, he told his supporters that if he wins in 2024, he will pardon his

supporters who stormed the capitol. for one, that sounds an awful lot like a bribe. and two, over 700 people have been arrested and charged so far with federal crimes in connection with that riot. so that would be a lot of pardons. in case his supporters need reminding, the january 6th attack was a really bad attack. over a hundred police officers were injured as those rioters smashed through windows and sent lawmakers and congressional staff members running for their lives. although the january 6th insurrection was the most overt attempt to overthrow democracy, it's becoming increasingly clear that the attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election was a more thoroughly planned out scheme than we initially thought. the house january 6th committee has now subpoenaed 14 of the so-called alternate electors who falsely claim that the failed former president won their electoral votes. with that scheme, it appears that the ex-president and his cronies were attempting to muddy up the typically ceremonial

process of formally certifying the results of the 2020 election. now lawmakers on capitol hill are looking at ways to prevent something like this from succeeding in the future, which is why there have been talks about potentially reforming the electoral count act, which is a nearly 140-year-old rule of law that governs what happened on january 6th, that the sflixs tried to stop. politico report that a partnership group of senators, quote, are considering updating the 1887 law to clarify that the vice president's role in overseeing congress' certification of election results is ministerial. in order, they cannot overturn the results like the trump people were right to get pence to do. in addition, the group is looking at potentially changing the tleshl for challenging election results. lakes spshlist matthew seligmann

believes that updating the law is critical. in his latest paper, he lays out the nightmare scenario that could unfold if the electoral count act isn't actually revised. first, a republican who's pushed baseless lies about the 2020 election wins a key state like georgia, and democrats no longer control the house, meaning that gop representative kevin mccarty is the speaker of the house. flash forward to the 2024 presidential election. let's say the democratic presidential candidate win ascii stwangt key swing state. he could choose to send an alternate slate of electors in favor of the republican candidate. then a republican-led house of representatives could count those alternate electors as valid and republicans could declare their candidate the winner overturning the will of the people. just like that.

it is actually that easy. pre-2020, this seemed like far far-fetched plot. while the scheme fell apart last time, there's currently actually nothing in place legally to prevent it from succeeding the next time. only good people. and some good judges stopped it from happening. joining me now is matthew seligmann, a lawyer and legal scholar and fellow at the yale law school center for private law. matthew, good morning to you. thank you for being with us. the scenario you lay out, is it solved by many things or it can it be solved at least in part by the revision or the repair of the electoral count act? >> thank you for having me. this is a law this is multiple vulnerabilities and multiple flaws. congress has to act to repair those vulnerabilities, but

that's going tyke multiple different measures. what we've seen on capitol hill so far is that congress has been focused on fixing the problem that we saw on january 6th of last year. there was a concern that congress would reject legitimate electoral votes from arizona and pennsylvania. but as you know, since then, we've learned that there was this parallel effort to have alternative electors september to congress. the reason why those alternative fake electors were fake, that hinged on the fact that the governor didn't certify them. that's the only difference. and the law in place places enormous legal weight on which slate of electors the governor certifies. so to fix this problem, we have to fix the electoral count act in what congress powers are, but also have to look at the risk of state manipulation, that governors or other state actors can manipulate the results as well. and if we don't pay attention to both of those challenges and vulnerabilities, then we're at risk of this nightmare scenario

in 2024. >> so you've answered a question i was going to ask you next. that is, this is an important matter and it is a vulnerability that is actually relatively easy to fix, because there's actually bipartisan support to do it. but it fixes one part of the problem. there are now two parts of the problem. there's the stuff that happened on january 6th in congress and all the stuff that has since happened, some of it prior to the election, but has since happened in the states and the voter suppression. just to be clear, the electoral college act would solve one problem, does dmot anything for the other problem. >> not quite. the electoral count act is like a relay race. it's a law that governs how the electoral votes get from states dong. there's the first runner in the relay race, states, and particularly governors, and they pass off the baton to congress, the electoral votes to congress. there are these two parts of the process that are governed by the

electoral count act. just like a relay race, cheating can happen either at the first stage or the second. there are changes that can be made to the electoral count act that can address cheating at either of these two stages. but we have to make sure we don't ignore the first half of the problem in trying to fix the second. the most important thing we can do is try to make sure that one and only one legitimate slate of electors reaches congress. >> the idea that there were more from one from some states, is that an electoral college problem or something else? it looks like the january 6th committee has no criminal authority. that's just -- they're just investigating it. but is that a separate thing, the fact that these seven states sent alternate electors? >> it's part of the same problem. and the historical origins of this are important. this claim about pause there was

this crisis election in 1876, where in the aftermath of the civil war, there were three states where there were real uncertainties about who the state government was. and these three states sent alternative slates of electors. and it took a political compromise that took just up until two days before inauguration day to solve it. and the toefrl count act was passed to try to prevent that from happening in the future. it's designed to deal with these scenarios that we would have thought were science fiction. but now the law is built to deal with them, but it's vulnerable. >> matthew, thank you for your work on this. i recommend it if our viewers haven't read what you've written on it that they da. appreciate your time. president biden has a rare opportunity to make history by nominating first black woman to serve on the supreme court. south carolina district judge jay michelle childs is now the

first person that the white house has confirmed is being considered as a potential candidate to succeed the retiring justice, justice breyer. others said to be on the short list includes the federal appeals judge, ketanji brown jackson and lee andra krueger. the president says he intends to announce his nominee by the end of february, kicking off what is sure to be an interesting nominee process ahead of the midterm elections. but regardless of who is eventually confirm, she'll be entering a court that will be ruling on a number of cases that will shape issues like affirmative action, abortion rights, and marriage equality for possibly decades to come. joining me now is a democratic candidate running to represent ohio's 89th district in the state's house of representatives. however you will know his name, because he was the lead plaintiff in obergefell versus hodges, the case that legalized same-sex marriage throughout the

united states mep pseudo after he and his husband pseudo the state. ohio would refuse to list him as a surviving spouse on a death certificate. he's the co-author of "love wins: the lovers and lawyers who fought the landmark case for marriage equality." thanks for being with me this morning. >> thanks for having me on. >> what's your thought on this? your thoughts are so big, you took a case to the supreme court and so big that you're are upping for congress. at least you're answering half the question about what you're planning to do about this. but what's your thought right now as you look at yet another vacancy on the supreme court and this time anall chance for joe biden to get the nominee that barack obama was prevented from getting when he had a vacancy. >> my thoughts are in two ways. number one, i'm thrilled that

president biden will have the chance to nominate a justice to the court, especially the chance to help this court look more like america, better reflect america. and to me that is such a fantastic opportunity. what aworry about is just continued gop obstruction. i know with the split in the senate, you know, we can confirm a justice, 50, along with the vice president, but i worry that mcconnell and the gop will just throw up every possible road bloc they can to delay this, to deny confirmation hearings and whatever else to whomever president biden nominates. i'm excited that the court has a chance to look more like america, but i'm really worried to see what continued obstruction that the gop will throw up. >> let me peel that back a

little bit. i've heard that from other people, and other people who have nothing to do with the supreme court. why do you feel that could happen. in theory, there's no reason why it should happen. there's no reason why mitch mcconnell and republicans should be able to block a nominee by joe biden right now, and yet, i have heard people say they fear that somehow, republicans will pull something out of a hat that will stop this from happening. tell me a little bit more about your thinking on this. >> my thinking on this is really rooted in the fact that it's clear that the republican party really does not have agenda other than obstruction and working to keep our nation in the past, take us pack to the best. when i look at what they do and how they take every opportunity to obstruct progress in this country, it just makes me worried that they will find some way to do that in this

nomination process. that seems to be all they're able to do to obstruct and pull us backwards. >> justice breyer was a big supporter of minority rights and of lbgtq plus rights. the human rights commission has put out a statement saying that the stakes could not be higher for lbgqt plus people. women in black and brown communities. president biden's nominee has big shoes to fill as they will play a role. assuming your fears don't come to pass and biden's nominee does get seated on the supreme court, how does it change people for lbtq plus rights. do you fear for anything or dupg that the rights that you won by

the supreme court will be further entrenched by at least that new nominee being a justice on the supreme court? >> well, having a biden nominee confirmed would absolutely give us a bit of comfort, knowing that that nominee would be in favor of the civil rights for all. not just the lbgtq plus community, but for all -- civil rights for all. so that would give us some comfort. but i have to say, ali, even though we have the right to get married in all 50 states, we still don't enjoy what i consider to be marriage equality. because there are continued efforts to deny us the same rights, the same protections in our marriages. all you have to do is look at public businesses who are demanding the right to refuse to serve us, whether that's a baker, a photographer, a printer, it doesn't matter. we have the right to marry, but

don't really enjoy marriage equality in the united states. and there have been a couple of supreme court decisions that have helped, furthered our cause regarding employment. that was a great win. and honestly, a big surprise. >> jim, thanks for the work that you've done. thanks for the fight that you continue to fight. jim obergefell was the lead plaintiff in the supreme court case that legalized same-sex marriage across the united states. the last time ukraine dominated headlines, former president of the united states accused of trying to extort its president. we may still be feeling the reverberations today. one of the men who admitted to taking part in that influence campaign joins me in a few minutes. he'll tell us why he thinks what trump did then is key to what's happening now. and it won't shock a single

velshi viewer to hear that we are still far from equitable when it comes to pace in the workplace. right after the break, part of the feast saw more than 2 feet of snow, fierce winds and pounls. we're on the ground in massachusetts next with an update on the storm aftermath. sn sn update on the storm aftermath. and a touch of sea salt. it's like a double double for your tastebuds. subway keeps refreshing and refreshing and refreshing... (vo) for me, one of the best things about life is that we keep moving forward. it's like a double double for your tastebuds. we discover exciting new technologies. redefine who we are and how we want to lead our lives. basically, choose what we want our future to look like. so what's yours going to be?

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cleanup and power restoration efforts are underway throughout much of the northeast this morning. tens of thousands of people lost power on saturday in one of the most powerful blizzards to hit the region in four years. the storm dumped upward of 3 feet of snow in some places from new york to maine. more than 1,200 flights have been canceled for today. hundreds more are delayed. the storm may be behind us, but extreme cold temperatures and powerful winds will be with us for a while.

up and down the northeast coast, millions of americans are facing freezing weather, in the teens and below. joining me now is nbc's kathy park in boston. kathy, massachusetts looked like it may have been hit the hardest. more than 60,000 people, last i heard, without power this morning. what do we know about what the situation is there? >> reporter: hey, there, ali, good morning to you. massachusetts certainly felt the brunt of this powerful nor'easter. whiteout conditions at the height of the storm, the snow was coming down. but when you factor in the wind gusts, 35 to 40 miles per hour. this is what you're looking at now. here in boston, we are measuring 23.6 inches of snow, tying a record for the most snowfall in one day. but, boy, ali, those coastal communities, cape cod, nantucket got slammed with not only snow, but there were some communities underwater. flooding was a big issue, as well as widespread power outages. this morning, when i woke up, i

was just kind of struck at how quickly they were able to remove all the snow here in new england, especially here in boston. you can actually see the pavement on the ground. you can probably hear a lot of the activity behind me. you have folks digging out. you have the plows kind of coming through the area, as. but we are still feeling the lingering effects of the storm. you mentioned the travel troubles. thousands of flights still delayed or canceled this morning. but, you know, what, they are kind of taking this storm in stride. and it's probably a good thing that this storm hit on a weekend, because a lot of the cars weren't out on the roadways, people weren't at work. so the mayor of boston was thanking folks who listened to the warnings and heeded the warnings and stayed put and they're encouraging people to do the same today. ali? >> kathy, good to see you, i'm glad things were not worse than they are, but for 60,000 people in northeast new england, i remind everyone, it is cold out

there. kathy park in boston for us. coming up, he admitted to helping donald trump execute a pressure campaign in ukraine that did lead to trump's first impeachment. lev parnas joins me next to tell me why he thinks trump's infamous quid pro quo is still affecting ukraine today. quid pl affecting ukraine today.

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in this moment we're living through with russia on the brink of invading ukraine, there's so much context that can be lost or forgotten. for example, the united states' extremely fraught role in ukraine's geopolitical position, particularly as it played out during the trump era. donald trump's ukraine scandal has been overshadowed by the endless stream of scandals his mishandling of covid, his big lie, and the violent insurrection of january 6th, which led to his second impeachment. but trump's first impeachment was all about his pressure campaign to try and force

ukraine to help him politically damage his then-point joe biden in the run-up to the 2020 presidential election. trump you might remember was accused of making much-needed military aide to ukraine, aide that had been approved by congress contingent upon ukraine using investigations into biden and his son hunter. well, my next guest has admitted to being part of that pressure campaign. lev parnas worked with rudy giuliani. he famously sat down for a tell-all interview with my colleague rachel maddow in 2020, not long after he was arrested on campaign finance charges. parnas was convicted in october, but was allowed by a judge to remain free on bail, as he awaits sentencing and trial on separate federal charges. we should note, neither of those cases directly related to trump's influence campaign in ukraine.

but if that explosive interview with rachel in january of 2020, lev told rachel that he had been dispatched by rudy giuliani to deliver a message to volodymyr zelensky to say that all aid was at risk unless zelensky started an investigation into the bidens. >> what's the main lie you feel like you can correct? >> that the president didn't know what was going on. president trump knew exactly what was going. he was aware of all of my movements. . i wouldn't do anything without the consent of rudy giuliani or the president. i have no intent, i have no reason to speak to any of these officials. they have no reason to speak to me. why would inner circle or minister or president poroshenko meet with me? who am i? they were told to meet with me.

>> and lev parnas maintains that what happened then is having a big impact on what's happening now. lev parnas joins me after the break. don't go anywhere. v parnas join break. don't go anywhere. people everywhere living with type 2 diabetes are waking up to what's possible... with rybelsus®. the majority of people taking rybelsus® lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than 7. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't take rybelsus® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop rybelsus® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. tell your provider about vision problems or changes.

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joining me now is lev parnas. i think we've got him on the phone. we're having a little bit of a problem with the connection.

lev, have i got you there? all right. we're going to find lev parnas. i really want to have this conversation with him about what happened -- there we go. i think we've got lev. have we got you now? >> yes, hi, ali. how are you? good morning. >> good, lev, good to have you on the show. i want to ask you some questions about your involvement in this. the ukrainian president did not ultimately cave to the pressure that donald trump was putting on him. he did not noups an investigation into joe biden, but do you have a sense of that pressure campaign back then, had some relationship to where ukraine finds vi-a-vis russia today? >> absolutely, ali. [ inaudible ] president poroshenko was still in office and trump -- >> all right.

i think we've an audio problem here. i think we're probably going to need to take a quick break and sort this out. we'll be right back. you're watching msnbc. out. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. you're watching msnbc.baja chip. it's three great things together. wait! who else is known for nailing threes? hmm. can't think of anyone! subway keeps refreshing and re... (vo) for me, one of the best things about life is that we keep moving forward. hmm. can't think of anyone! we discover exciting new technologies. redefine who we are and how we want to lead our lives. basically, choose what we want our future to look like. so what's yours going to be?

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i always say it's a good thing this isn't live so when things like this happen, the viewers don't see it. we apologize for the technical difficulties we're having. i apologize to lev parnas, as well. we do have him. he's back, he's on the phone, we have the technology worked out that we can at least have a conversation with you. let's talk, i just want to -- we couldn't really hear your last answer, i want to ask you again. in the end, the ukrainian president didn't cave to the pressure, the campaign that you were involved in, that donald trump was there. they did not announce an investigation into joe biden. tell us again why you think that pressure campaign on volodymyr zelensky has some relationship as to where ukraine finds itself

today with this impending russian investigation. >> thank you for having me, ali. well, the pressure campaign started well before zelensky got into office. the pressure campaign started way back when trump won the election in 2016 and started putting pressure on president poroshenko. that's where it originally starts. when president zelensky came into office, he was already under the gun, already under tremendous pressure for trying to with the whole joe biden, hunter biden investigation announcement. so if you remember, even after -- when i had dinner with the president, trump way back in 2018, he didn't have been know where ukraine was on a map at the time. i had to point it out to him. and he asked a very important question that people might have missed, but it's very important. he asked, how long would ukraine sustain without our help if they got into war with russia. that was a question he asked. and the answer was not too long,

i answered to him. i said, ukraine would fall very quickly. they would need american support. so i think back then, he understood that ukraine needed america badly and that's why they put that pressure on them to announce that announcement. that's why we're here today. this has nothing to do with joe biden. he's clearing up the mess that trump put us into. and i think that trump didn't know politics very well and he thought he was doing business. and it got our country into a very big mess. >> so to be clear, the aide that the united states was accepted sending to ukraine was congressionally approved aide. everybody realized the point that you made to donald trump, and that is that russia can do what it wants with ukraine. if nato and the west are not behind ukraine, ukraine could crumble. tell me how that effort, that pressure campaign on ukraine at the time weakened the country to

the point that it continues to be as vulnerable as it is to russian invasion without u.s. help? >> absolutely, ali. back when this started in 2018, ukraine was already at war with russia. they have been at war since 2014. so the pressure that russia was putting on by taking over crimea and by, you know, by fighting in domas, it was putting a lot of pressure. so all the help that incoming president zelensky needed was from the united states, all the help he could get. and trump basically understood that. and when zelensky and his administration declined to open up an investigation on to joe biden, he basically stopped all military aide, actually, all aide, that was the message i was told to give to sergey shafer, that all aide would be stopped if they didn't announce an investigation into joe biden and

hunter biden. >> when you sent that information, how did that happen? did you meet with him, this right hand, to the president at the time of ukraine. what was their reaction when they heard that? any ukrainian knowing that the united states president was sending a message that all aide would stop, i'm sure the color would drain from their face. they would realize what the implications are of that. >> absolutely. he turned pail white. if you recall, this happened in may when giuliani was supposed to travel to ukraine to meet with president-elect zelensky. they were getting ready for the inauguration and it was a big thing and vice president pence was supposed to show up there and they were supposed to show big support for ukraine, but when giuliani canceled the trip, he called me skpad that there are enemies of trump surrounding zelensky and to give him a stern message that if he doesn't

announce an investigation to joe or hunter biden, then there would be no aide, vice president pence would not show up to the inauguration and basically there would be no relationship between the united states and ukraine. i called up the attorney general at time, he got in touch with zelensky's people and i got a call from sergey shafer. we decided to meet at a park, that was like a cafe park. we had some coffee, we sat down and basically i gave him a stern message. he told me he understood and he would relay the message. later that evening, i got a text from him telling me that he's talking to zelensky and he'll get back to me. and later that night, all communication got cut off. and that's when i was told to lee the country. >> at the time, i've

subsequently learned that alexander hillman and viona hill said there was a department, but they were concerned there was a separate parallel thing going on. how did you reconcile that? how did you understand your role in talking to the right-hand person to the president of ukraine, expressing u.s. policy, while there was actual u.s. policy that did not reflect what you were saying? >> you have to understand, back then, i was in a cult. and the only thing i understood is that there was a deep state. the only thing that i was told is that the democrats were bad and they were going against trump and they wanted to do bad things for him. and i really believed in that. and i thought that -- and at the time, you have to understand that the embassy -- trump decided that the embassy was against him. so all the politicians and the

policies that were being put in ukraine, they were not trump's policies or trump peoples doing it. so basically, we felt that we were -- i mean -- not felt, but we knew that under the guidance of giuliani and trump, this is what we needed to do. it felt very scary at certain points, because i'm not a political person, so i was not ever involved in a situation like that, but i was it was my duty to give the message, because it was coming from the president of the united states. >> you actually tweeted. there was a picture of you on screen there with donald trump jr. you tweeted, i taught your daddy where ukraine is on a map. this situation is due to his corrupt quid pro quo. i challenge you to a debate on this. what is it that you want to tell the former president or his cronis about their role back then and what's happening today? >> to stop spitting out propaganda and misinformation.

it was -- the situation that we are in with ukraine and russia right now has all to do with the way trump treated zelensky when it mattered. and now they're trying to take a side, saying, oh, my god -- the biggest thing you have tosup, putin didn't decide to do this overnight. he's been trying to do this for a very long time, he was looking for a chance, for a crack in our system. and trump put a crack in our system. our country always united against russia, against russia or foreign powers. this is the first time that our country is divided. we have republicans on the gop standing out there. we have tucker carlson and sean hannity going on tv and they're trying to support russia against ukraine. that's what putin is using. he's using the manipulation that trump has put into our country and divided it. and he's using that division to be able to now take over parts of ukraine. >> lev, thanks for your time

this morning, appreciate it. lev parnas, a former associate of rudy giuliani and someone who was involved in those discussion with the ukrainians under donald trump. coming up, we know we have a pay problem in this country. we know that women earn less than men for the same amount of work and black women earn even less than that, but a new poll shows a shocking disparity between trans and gender-nonconforming workers' paychecks and everyone else. d gender-nonconforming workers' gender-nonconforming workers' paychecks and everyone else.meoe get a turn? yeah, hang on, i'm about to break my own record. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily stops your body from overreacting to allergens all season long. psst! psst! flonase all good. oh, man that is wrinkly.

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we've always had a pay equity problem in this country. we usually talk about women or people of color being paid less on the dollar than your average worker. but there is also aap that transgender and gender nonconforming americans face. according to a new poll, transgender are among the lowest paid lgbtq plus people working full-time in the united states. the poll discovered that trans men and nonbinary or gender nonconforming people earn 70 cents for every dollar the typical worker earns. when it comes to trans women, just 60 cents on the dollar. not only dealing with the severe wage gap but more than 77% of the respondents in the 2015 transgender survey reported

taking multiple steps to avoid discrimination in the office like hiding their gender identity, delaying their transitions, additional steps to avoid being misgendered without correcting their employer. for more, i'm joined by errin haines and also with us my old friend and colleague who is a columnist for "the daily beast." and also author of "go back to where you came from." welcome to you both. thank you for being here. erin, it was something that got sent out from the 19th which i subscribe to and i follow that brought my attention to this remarkable wage gap. 60 cents on the dollar for transgender women in america. you studied it. >> yeah, good morning, or should i say ally or ali. thank you for highlighting our

journalism. this is important reporting from my colleague who showed just as you found, the situation for trans and gender nonconforming is alarming. they are also disproportionately in poverty, something that was only exacerbated by the pandemic. and really i think that the reporting really highlights the need to figure out how these workers can fair better in our economy, paying and promoting them for example and hiring them so that they are not the only one in their workplace or just a few of the solutions that are included in the article can which i encourage everybody to read. >> and this is interesting because in your book you write a lot about the othering of people and how popular it has become. just the idea that i don't have to support the rights of some people because i've been led to not understand them, maybe even feel that they are a threat.

but for the trans and nonconforming community, it is actually really fear about threat. they really do -- you know, people really do make you think that they are a danger to society. it is why we have bathroom laws and things like that. we have other the trans and nonconforming the community in a way that we haven't done since black americans started getting freedom. >> yeah, othering is as american as white supremacy and apple pie. who is the real american? listen to what mitch mcconnell said. the rest of us who aren't white or mainstream have an asterisk next to our name. we're americans with conditions. and the trans community, you see the double standards when it comes to wages, violence, the criminal justice system, the sentencing, the self harm, the lack of mental health resources. so if we live in an equal society where anyone has a chance at the dream if you just

work hard, the horrifying statistics wouldn't exist. but the fact that they do exist and it is okay to mock them and ridicule them, that just shows you that we have a long way to go. >> erin, there are obviously with every group that has been marginalized in america, there have been remarkably efforts which in part led to marriage equality. but at this point the stuff that trans and nonconforming americans face kind of feels like it is other people's work. feels like it is us as employers, as government that needs to extend an umbrella of protection to them. and in some states it is exactly the opposite that is happening. >> yeah, and that is really why the body of work at the 19th is really showing -- making the case for why this is something that our entire society, that

our entire community needs to be concerned about and needs to be addressing. this should not just be left to the people who are at the receiving end of this harm, but this should be something that is not acceptable to any of us in this society. what we're seeing especially happening at the state level, the anti-trans legislation, it is all part of just a larger conversation about the dignity of this community and how they are going to be made to feel -- that they really are a part of this society exactly as they should be. >> and i want to read something from your book because it struck me as interesting, you write that americans are historically fine with kags traiting their own civil liberties because we'd rather feel safe than actually be free, especially when our illusory feelings of safety can come at the expense of people of

color, immigrants and muslims, you know "them." i think that this is really interesting because if you completely subscribe to democracy and liberty, you'd want that same democracy and access to liberty for all people. but we're in a moment where we're saying you know what, let's not read these books, let's not give these rights out, i want to feel safe. if everybody doesn't have the same shot at democracy and liberty, that is actually okay with me. >> yeah, i'd rather feel safe than free. when it came to crt, it was that it was just the black and brown author, i don't like the pronouns. but now they are going after books about the holocaust or feminists, oh, wait, they are going after any book that challenges white supremacy, oh, they are coming after me and my children. oh, we're all in this together. and that crt debate in particular shows that it is either all of us getting the rights or we're all going down.

and you have to k3 pabd the country to include all of us or else the entire project fails. and this has happened again and again especially where we gave up our liberties to go after the muslims but then we saw that happening against white folks who were marching alongside peaceful blm protestors against police brutality, so wait, we subscribe to this and now this 47b is coming after us and that is why we have to stick together, a multicultural coalition of the willing. >> and as we are talking about the first black woman who will be nominated we expect to the supreme court and barring something very unusual maybe confirmed to a seat as an associate justice of the supreme court, you are remembering shirley chisholm.

she did not even become the party nominee, but to regard this as a loss or failure would be to miss the point. if they don't give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair she famously said in boldly proclaiming her seat, and she made space for others. she was a change agent who did not ask for permission, remaining try to the spirit of her campaign slogan, unbought and unbossed. and when you listen to the recordings or watch the video of shirley chisholm's campaign, she was certain that she wouldn't win because that it didn't matter. >> and i encourage everyone to read her biography which i have on my desk. even though she didn't become the nominee, she did lay the path. i'm just really proud to be

celebrating our two year anniversary in the same week we're marking 50 years of her campaign. >> and we're grateful for both of you and the work that you put out. thank you both. "the sunday show" with jonathan capehart begins right now. to be young, gifted and black. the extraordinary african-american women who could be the next supreme court justice. including one of my guests this morning, melissa murray. plus the national outcry over rising crime after two new york city police officers are killed. chicago mayor lori lightfoot tells me how she's trying to keep her city safe. and chasten