for sticking around. the race based playbook that republicans cannot seem to resist. even before president biden names which of the well qualified black women he is considering will actually be his choice for the supreme court, there are those on the right trying to paint this as a case of reverse discrimination. it left two republicans on the sunday morning shows facing an obvious question, how is biden's pledge any different from ronald reagan's which led to the choice of sandra day o'connor, but only one got their history right. >> i have looked at what was done in both cases. and what president biden did was as a candidate, make this pledge. and that helped politicize the entire nomination process. what president reagan said is as

one of his supreme court justices, he would like to appoint a woman. and he appointed a highly qualified one in sandra day o'connor. >> president reagan said running for office that he wanted to put the first female on the court. whether you like it or not, joe biden said i'm going to pick an african american woman to serve on the supreme court. i believe there are plenty of qualified -- >> so if you were betting on lindsey graham as the one who got an "a" on this history quiz, you win. ronald reagan did make that pledge to choose a supreme court nominee on the campaign trail, just like joe biden did. in a moment, i'm going to talk to shontel brown about race and the potential supreme court choice. >> also, former president trump spends his texas rally offering pardons to january 6th insurrectionists if he wins back the white house in the next election. and continuing to spread the big lie that he never really lost

the election in the first place. this hour, we're going to introduce you to some of those who have swallowed it all, hook, line, and sinker. >> if somebody let you count every single vote yourself, and you could see that joe biden won by 7 million votes, would you still -- >> i still wouldn't believe it. >> you still wouldn't believe it? >> i still wouldn't believe it. >> still wouldn't believe it. i'm going to talk to the man behind the interview and more with the trump true believers coming up later this hour. but we want to begin with the conservative criticism over the president's plans to nominate the first black woman to the supreme court. the white house is now pushing back after a republican senator said biden's court pick will be the, quote, beneficiary of affirmative action. white house spokesman andrew bates saying the president's choice is, quote, in line with the best traditions of both parties and our nation. the forceful rebuke came just one day after mississippi senator roger wicker's remarks during a radio show interview in

which he said it was ironic that the supreme court was considering an affirmative action case right now. >> the irony is that the supreme court is at the very same time hearing cases about this sort of affirmative racial discrimination. >> yes. >> and while adding someone who is the beneficiary of this sort of quota. the majority of the court may be saying writ large, it's unconstitutional. we'll see how that irony works out. >> no irony there at all, by the way, to fact check that. joining me, shontel brown of ohio, also a member of the house oversight committee and congressional black caucus. thank you so much for joining us. we appreciate it. just give me first your reaction to what you heard there from the

mississippi senator. >> well, first of all, thank you for having me. i think it's important to point out and thank the justice breyer for his years of distinguished service on the supreme court. i think president biden is simply upholding his promise to nominate the first black woman to the supreme court justice. and if we look at history, there has been 115 supreme court justices. not a single one has been a black woman. so it's clearly long past time to see our country's diversity reflected in our highest court in the land. >> i got to say, yesterday, i made a comment that for a very long time, it seemed as if you had to be a white male to be nominate today the supreme court if you're talking about in fact classifying individuals when it comes to the nomination process with the supreme court. i want to play a little bit more from lindsey graham. speaking this morning on cbs's "face the nation." >> there are plenty of qualified

african american women, conservative and liberal, that could go onto the court, so i don't see michelle childs as an act of affirmative action. i do see putting a black woman on the court making the court more like america. >> i gotta say on the one hand, it's interesting. playing the sound from lindsey graham, thinking, okay, why aren't more republicans speaking up this way? clearly, he's in favor obviously of a nomination of michelle childs. but we shouldn't be applauding that. that should be the m.o., that should be what every individual in congress, in this country, should be saying right now. so talk to me first about your reaction, hearing that from senator graham, and then also, if there's any certain individuals you are supporting in their nomination. >> well, i think that there are plenty, to his point, well qualified and experienced candidates that are being considered. i will not weigh in on who i think the president should pick. as i have no doubt he and his

team will select someone with extraordinary qualifications, outstanding character, and integrity. and i look forward to the senate confirming justice breyer's replacement in a timely manner. i think the american people deserve a full bench on the supreme court, and again, one that is reflective of the united states. so i actually agree with the senator, but i also agree with you. this should not be the exception. it should be the standard. >> let me talk to you a little bit about your upcoming primary challenge. you have a rematch with bernie sanders' ally, nina turner. take a listen to her on with my colleague, jonathan capehart, excuse me for saying tina turner. it's nina turner. take a listen. >> it's a new district. it is new people. and it is absolutely a new time. it is my sincere hope that the issues are pushed forward and that dark money that really does not care about the destiny of the people in greater cleveland, that they do not come in and try to dilute and also pollute the

election process this time. >> so two things there we heard. first and foremost is the interference of dark money here. do you agree with her, the involvement of dark money in the process? and also, are you confident you can defeat her once again? >> well, let me say this. dark money did play a role, and let me also point out that that dark money was on the other side of this race. i was outraised 3-1, and people seem to forget, there were 11 other candidates in the race, and while it came down to me and her, i won by not a plurality but a majority. the lines have not been drawn, so we do not know what the district will look like. however, i was able to make it to the halls of congress and deliver on the promises i campaigned on, which was delivering jobs to people in northeast ohio by voting on the largest and most historic bipartisan infrastructure bill. we in northeast ohio will receive millions and billions of

dollars in fact, $1.8 billion to be exact to deal with roads. $96 million to deal with bridges. $100 million to deal with the lead pipe situation. i have been doing the work, and as a consistent nine-year legislator who has lived here my entire life, if the lines are redrawn where it should be, inclusive of all of cuyahoga county, i'm confident i have the best advantage to retain this seat and i hope the people of the 11th congressional district will trust me to continue doing the work that i promised to do. >> democratic congresswoman shontel brown of ohio, thank you. we wish you the best of luck. want to bring in my panel now. rina shah, principal and founder of relax strategies, adviser for renewed democracy, and former republican strategist. also, immany gandy, senior editor of law and policy for rewire news group. welcome to you both. appreciate it, ladies, for jow joining me this sunday afternoon. let me start with you on this

one, 232 years it has taken for the possible nomination of a black woman. it will make history in this country when it comes to the potential nomination of a black woman to the supreme court. talk to me about your reaction to that. >> well, i have to say, thanks for having me, i have to say i agree with your comments a few minutes ago, which is that it was essentially a prerequisite that you be a white man before you could be nominated for the supreme court. so this idea that when joe biden has decided to essentially, you know, sort of one-up ronald reagan and pledge to nominate a black woman, what he's doing is he's not picking -- he's not doing some sort of affirmative action pick. he's not narrowing the pool of candidates. he's widening the pool of candidates because the pool of candidates has traditionally been white men. secondly, as a black woman who has been to law school, i have sat in classes with white men, i

have been underestimated. i have been looked down upon. i have been called a diversity fire and affirmative action pick. i know what it's like to have to read more and study harder and think harder and do more work just to be seen half as competent as a white man, as a comparative white man. so i am absolutely confident that every single black woman on this list is going to be qualified. >> you bring up such a good point in some of the coverage that i have been seeing, some of the pieces i have been seeing and the commentary from a lot of politicians. there's always this follow-up to any nominees dangled as if to say, but she is so incredibly qualified. she has nothing in her background to disqualify her from this nomination. you think back to the most recent nomination of supreme court justices now who have been confirm today the supreme court. justice kavanaugh coming to mind, for instance. why it is that qualification even needs to happen. and i can't help but think it's

because of this potential nominee and the color of her skin. >> well, the use of the phrase qualified candidates has me seething, to be honest, yasmin. let's step back for a second, and as a woman of color, i'm so sick of america throwing the kitchen sink at us, at black and brown women in particular. this is the toughest conversation to have right now because it seems that some people have lost their minds and lost touch with reality. when you look at this on its face, this is a president who recognizes that the highest court in the land needs to look more like america. i come from an era of what i thought was sensible conservatism, and i know there are sensible conservatives out there who agree with me, this is high time. we need to look at this short list of women who are being rumored to be joe biden's pick and look at all of them and see their qualifications. these women are not just heavily and highly qualified. but they have more qualifications in their pinky than any of the standard bearers of the gop or the entire trump

family, to be honest, right now. i think we have unfortunately reduced these women to identity. and that's a shame. i think across the spectrum what we have is a shameful moment for america. a moment where we cannot look at this for what it is, a chance to make history. a chance to show our children that change is possible. and to step out of this bubble of everything needing to be a single issue vote all the time. we should look at our highest court in the land and say, we believe that this is what it is. this is a time where we can say we need jurors who look like america. let's putthem on the court. let's get past this whole notion and still the argument that everything is politicized. susan collins making that argument today, nonsensical. nonsensical. we should push back on that and say, hey, susan, when has a court appointment not been political? stop with the nonsense. do the right thing. stop being concerned with your re-election, bending over backwards to try to find a way

to discount these women because it's high time, and i want my daughters to look at an incredible black woman on the court and say anything is possible, and look up to her. >> i want expand on that a little bit because that's exactly what i have been thinking a lot about as well, since the announcement of the retirement of justice stephen breyer. and that is what does this potential nomination say to black women that in this country and black daughters, to young black women? >> i think it says that, you know, we may be finally realizing that quote/unquote american dream. where every person can grow up and become a supreme court justice. but more importantly, i think for black women and for, you know, the children of black people, it is important to know that although this court is super, uber conservative and hyperpartisan, this black justice that whoever is going to join sonia sotomayor in bringing the law to the people, in

talking about the consequences that the law has, that the way in which the supreme court interprets the law has. i think it's going to be critical, for example, to have a black woman on the bench when the court hears the big affirmative action case. i think it would be a tragedy to not have the voice of someone who understands what it's like to be a black woman in america, to be underestimated, to be looked down upon, and to bring that life experience to bear. and that's the kind of life experience that frankly a white counterpart would not be able to bring to bear. these dissents are going to be critical. they're going to hopefully become majority opinions in the future, so you know, it's just high time. it's high time. >> it is high time. 200 plus years later. rena and amani, thank you both. appreciate you this afternoon. coming up, everybody, nancy pelosi makes it official. that she is running for another term in congress. but my next guest says there is

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so house speaker nancy pelosi made some news this week, announcing a bid for re-election in her san francisco district. hoping to serve out an 18th term. 18th term. the trail blazing first female speaker has led the democratic caucus since 2002, which could be why some hope pelosi will honor a pledge that she made to pass on the speaker's gavel to the next generation of leaders at the close of this congress if, of course, democrats hold on to the house. my next guest, msnbc opinion columnist, hayes brown, made that case in an opinion piece for msnbc.com, and he joins me now. hayes, great to see you. thanks for joining us on this. make the case for those watching today as to why you think it is time for the speaker to give up her gavel. >> well, first of all, i want to say up front, this is not about her leadership style, not having qualms with how she's led the democrats in this congress or previous congress. she's done a great job, but she made that pledge in 2018 that she would only serve in two more congresses as leader of the

democrats. i think it is important she honor that pledge. not just because of the fact that, i mean, she should stick by her word, but because look at the people around her as well. she's had the same leadership team in place with her since 2007. you have a house majority leader, steny hoyer. and you have house majority whip, jim clyburn. both great lawmakers. good in their positions, but together, they are all octogenar januarys. they have held those same spots for over a decade and a half, which has caused a backlog in terms of leadership in the democratic caucus. i think they need to be aware of that and be preparing for and should have been honestly been preparing for the day when they no longer hold control of the caucus. >> so here are some of the quotes that you point out when it comes to lawmakers and what they're looking for in an ideal speaker. here's from a moderate on their ideal speaker.

i want to make sure it's someone who can pull the party together. as pelosi says, our diversity is our strength and unity is our power. i want to be sure it's someone who is hold that unity. bradley snyder, a moderate. here is a progressive. i think there was a holding of power model that worked very well for a long time and now it's more about a recognition of different centers of focus within the democratic caucus that have to be brought in and brought together. this was representative pramila jayapal. going on to say it takes some acceptance of more decentralized leadership. do you think that there is kind of this consensus there, that there needs to be someone as we are hearing from some of the quotes you point to, of someone who can really unify the party, which seems fairly fractured right now? >> so i think that pelosi, one of her biggest strengths has been with both hands holding on to the democratic caucus, even as it's gotten more progressive and moderates have lost out on their power, she has made sure if they're holding a vote, she's

going to have as few defections as possible. that's really incredible. but i do see the point of progressives that that time of leading with an iron fist may be coming to an end. they want the rank and file members want to have more of a say in what is going on in congress. and that makes sense to me. it makes sense to me that if you're showing up in congress, you don't want to just be told, look, here's what's in the bill. now you have to vote for it. they want more of aporosis of figuring out what the legislation looks like, more opportunities to bring things to the floor. that is not pelosi's style. pelosi's style is well, we're going to bang something out and we're going to vote for it as a caucus, as a unified group, and that's what makes them powerful. there are arguments for either side. right now, i think that the majority of people probably do want some sort of continuity and want someone who is like pelosi to make sure that they hand over power smoothly, but i don't think that there's going to be a consensus anytime soon about what it is that they're looking

for in their next leader and in the leadership in general. don't forget, it's not just pelosi as speaker. it's also the top positions that probably will be replaced in the next congress. >> hayes brown, this is obviously a developing story that we're going to continue to stay on top of. hopefully you'll come back on to talk more about this. thank you for now. good to see you. >> still ahead, a group of black moms fight back against school book bans. but first, we're going to have the latest in a live report from ukraine where russian troops remain poised to invade. i'm talk to alexander vindman about the crisis coming up next. about the crisis coming up next. why does walgreens offer prescription copays

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welcome back, everybody. the president is getting new support on russia from nato ally boris johnson. the uk prime minister is offering to step up troop deployment and widen the range of proposed sanctions on russia if russian president vladimir putin does not stop his threatened invasion of ukraine. nbc's erin mclaughlin is on the ground and joining us. good to see you. a russian invasion, not a foregone conclusion at this point. how are leaders there feeling about reaching a diplomatic solution at this point? >> yeah, well, ukrainian leaders are certainly pushing for a diplomatic solution today, calling out russia, the ukrainian foreign minister in a tweet saying, quote, if russian officials are serious when they say they don't want any war, russia must continue diplomatic engagement and pull back

military forces it amassed along ukraine's borders and in temporarily occupied borders of ukraine, diplomacy is the only responsible way. that reference in that tweet to a, quote, new war, marks a slight shift in tone from what we have been hearing of late from ukrainian officials who have largely been calling out washington for its rhetoric, this drum beat of dire warnings that we have been hearing from the biden administration. ukrainian officials as well as the ukrainian president have been critical of that, saying that it's excessive, saying it's creating undue panic as well as economic uncertainty here in ukraine. and john kirby, the press secretary for the pentagon, was asked specifically about that earlier today on fox news. take a listen to what he had to say. >> we're in constant communication with our ukrainian counterparts. secretary austin has spoken to his as well. we're making sure we're sharing information and context as best we can. i can't speak for what president

zelensky is saying or what he's seeing, and certainly what he's saying about what he's seeing but we have been nothing but clear and transparent about our concerns at the pentagon over the rapid buildup over the last few months around the border with ukraine and in belarus, not to mention maritime activity by the russians in the mediterranean and the atlantic. >> and that's an assessment that is shared by u.s. undersecretary of state victoria nuland, who weheard from earlier today, pointed specifically to the situation in belarus, saying that up to 30,000 russian forces have amassed there, expressing concern about that situation, really unprecedented at this point. noting that the united states does not believe russian president vladimir putin has decided what his next steps will be. russia, for its part, while making these extreme demands of the west, saying they do not intend to attack ukraine at this

point. yasmin. >> erin mclaughlin for us in ukraine. thank you. >> want to talk more about this, i'll bring in alexander vindman. he's also the author of the book "here, right matters, an american story." thanks for joining us on this. we appreciate it. i first want to play for you some sound, lev parnas joined ali velshi earlier today, talking about what is happening on the border with ukraine. let's take a listen to what he had to say. >> very important question that people might have missed but it's very important. he asked how long would ukraine sustain without our help. if they had gone to war with russia. and the answer was not too long. i answered him, ukraine would fall really quickly. they need american support. he already understood that ukraine needed america so badly, and that's why i think he put that pressure on them to make that announcement.

that's why we're here today. this has nothing to do with joe biden. he's clearing up the mess that trump put us in. >> could you react to that for me? >> frankly, i don't have the full context, but i could comment on the fact that ukraine definitely does need external support. it has made some significant progress on its own merits. its economy is growing. in spite of limited investments from overseas, but they do need a significant amount of security assistance to harden the state for these types of confrontations that are shaping up on ukraine's borders at the moment. i think that's a completely fair statement. i could also agree with this notion that donald trump did quite a bit of damage in undermining u.s. credibility and internal strength, internal cohesion that probably presented the opportunity that putin might be acting on at the moment. >> you heard our correspondent,

erin, talking about the fact that u.s. officials believe the russian president has not yet made his decision as to whether or not he's going to actually invade ukraine despite the troop build-aon the border. do you believe that? >> he's done everything but make the final decision to move. so he's positioned his military. he's set the narrative around grievance, around the fact that the russians are reacting out of a sense of need, which is completely false. he's eliminated the possibility of fruitful negotiations, and is prepared to walk away, saying he's engaged in negotiations and the west wasn't compromising. and he has the military all around ukraine in massive strength. some over 100,000 estimates now as high as 130,000 shaping up to be closer to 150,000 or 170,000. he has everything but the final go order. and i think what we're seeing right now is the fog of war.

this is the stage right before the armies collide, and we don't have complete clarity on exactly everything that's going on, but the actions in a lot of ways speak louder than words. and it looks like everything is set for a major european confrontation. >> you have made this point, which i think is a great one, in that russia does not care about sanctions. does not care about these debilitating sanctions that the u.s. is prepared to put in place, if in fact they invade ukraine. they can now rely on china if in fact these sanctions are put into place. so what options does ukraine, does the united states have? >> so it should be noted that he probably does have concerns over sanctions. if they were rolled out in the most comprehensive, maximalist way we're talking about. but he does have a significant cushion. he has a $630 billion war chest. he has a relationship with china

he could leverage, and he has good confidence that maybe the sanctions that are being promised may not come out in force. there are perceptions, legitimate perceptions of the fact the europeans may not have the same kind of resolve to levy sanctions the way we do. they have a larger economic relationship. he's counting on the fact that there will be less than maximum and this is a cost he could bear. with regards to what the west can really do at this point, i think we're doing a lot of the things we should be doing. i think when i first started talking about this topic in october, november timeframe, i was deeply concerned about the fact we weren't paying attention to this conflict, to the largest military offensive in europe, and at the time, we didn't really have this policy of sanctions and troop movements and weapons being provided to ukraine. some of those are coming together and coming together in a really kind of a good way to add to deterring of vladimir putin. i just don't know if it's going

to be enough. he may be prepared to bear all these costs. i think he probably is prepared to bear all these costs. the only thing that could stave off this major offensive at the moment is if he realizes this is not the opportunity he thought it was. the west is not weak, the u.s. is not weak. there is resolve to respond to russian actions. russia will be a pariah. those things look like they're moving in the right direction, and that may be just enough to keep us out of -- keep europe, keep the u.s. out of this major confrontation shaping up on the borders between russia and ukraine. >> retired lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, thank you so much for joining us this sunday afternoon. we appreciate it. >> want to get to breaking news now from our white house team. nbc news has confirmed that president biden's list of candidates for the supreme court nomination has grown to more than a dozen. two sources familiar with the process tell nbc news that biden is casting a wide net that goes beyond some of the names floating most publicly in the

days since justice breyer announced his resignation. why they say there's no short list of yet, we can report new names. anita earls and tiffany p. cunningham, federal circuit judge to name just two. we'll be right back. ed no matter how much you use. (mary) did you just say foreals? (vo) sorry. let's put it to work with six premium entertainment subscriptions included! (mary) shhh, i'm in the lead. (vo) go on, watch all you want. (mary) i love this show. (vo) and because a better plan deserves a better phone... how about a new one on us? (mary) seriously? (vo) yep, it's our best plan ever. verizon is going ultra, so you can too.

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one of the books coming under heavy fire from would-be book banners is this one "stamped, racism, antiracism, and you." it's stories try to explain how some current policies have roots in racist ideology, but some book banners in the state of texas were not prepare for this show of force. the round rock black parents association went to bat to keep the book on the shelves in their town, and by the way, they won. ashley walker is one of those parents behind this effort, and she joins me now. ashley, congratulations. i'm going to bet, ashley, or maybe i'm wrong, and correct me if i'm wrong, but you didn't think that in your time as a parent of a student in your district that you would be fighting for something like this. having to keep books on the shelves that talk about the history of black americans. >> thank you for having me. no, i didn't think that this would be the case. i have a first grader, and so

she's just beginning her career as a student. and i never expected that this is where it would go. it's rather unfortunate that this is where it is, but i'm going to continue to fight for her. >> and we're so glad you're doing that. so tell me, ashley, not only for me, for the folks watching, for other people that might be facing this in their communities as well, how did you guys do it? >> we didn't do it alone. it originally began with a former teacher in the district creating a petition, and so we met with that teacher, and we were able to organize other organizations within our area so we organized round rock black parents and anti-racists coming together and educators in solidarity to speak to our school board to make sure this book wasn't banned. we went on social media, we talked to the school board.

we talked to the superintendent. we did everything we could to insure that our children's voices were heard and that our voices were heard. >> i want to read part of the foreword from one of the authors talking about why it was important for him to write this book. saying, i write about the history of racism to understand racism today. i want to understand racism today to understand how it is affecting me today. i want you to understand racism today to understand how it is affecting you and america today. ashley, why is it so important to you, to other black members of your community, to members in your community that are white, of all colors, of all backgrounds, to read this book and their children to read this book? >> like i said, my daughter is in first grade. and she just recently in november went into in-person learning. and that was her first time being in-person learning in our district. and since that time, she's come

home and stated how she wants blond hair and that black skin isn't beautiful. and that's devastating to hear. and i don't think that anyone is actively telling her this, but it's a lack of representation in the curriculum, in books and in the teachers that are around her that implies that message for her. i think it's important this book is read so that my child is other children that look like her don't have to feel this way. that they can see themselves in a light that is positive. they can see themselves in a way that is beneficial to them. and that other folks who are non-black can empathize and gain that empathy, gain that love for someone that they just don't know. >> ashley, can i ask you, what did you say to your daughter when she said that? >> i told her that we are

beautiful. we are proud to be who we are. we read not only did we read stamped from the beginning, the anti-racism book, we also have read the beyond the water, 1619, book for kids. i continue to put black culture around her as much as possible so that she can see herself in a positive light. but most importantly -- >> fighting the good fight, ashley. keep fighting the good fight. we thank you for joining us and bringing us that story today. thank you. and good luck with your daughter. she sounds like a very smart little girl. coming up, we're going to take you beyond the former president's rhetoric at his latest rally and into the minds of some of those attending. >> kennedy was our president and trump is under cover. >> so you have to explain this. you have to explain this to me. so john f. kennedy, sr. is

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testing positive for covid, flouting local health and safety measures. palin is in new york for a libel trial against "the new york times." the local anti-vaxer was spouted dining out both before and after she tested positive for covid. my high five of the week five oo the good people at cable access station uctv. especially their call screener for allowing this to happen. >> he won so that was it. you all are not, you will not accept the fact that joe biden won. and that is the whole thing. you're not going to accept it. you're going to keep on and keep on and pick, pick, pick. and you won't get anything done if you're not going to respect the man and realize that he's the president. you're not going to get anything done. >> that is controversial congresswoman marjorie taylor

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welcome back. you have to hand one thing to the former president. he continues to draw a crowd as he proved at his texas rally last night. but who is the crowd? who is in the crowd? what do they believe? why do they keep showing up? my next guests are finding out,

toward crisscross the nation to talk to trump supporters directly. they're finding out that the former president has no shortage of true believers like this woman they talked to at the rally. >> some people say, donald trump has never admitted defeat in his life. that's why he wouldn't admit that he lost the election. then this voter fraud that he keeps claiming happened, didn't happen. and joe biden won by 7 million votes. >> i actually believe it. >> reporter: have you seen any evidence? >> not, well, no. they're not going to show me any evidence. but i believe it. i believe it. >> reporter: if somebody let you count every vote yourself and you could see that joe biden won by 7 million votes would you till -- >> i still wouldn't believe it. i believe -- >> reporter: okay. thank you so much. >> joining me now are the good

liars. hi, guys. welcome. some great stuff that you got at that rally yesterday. it is good to see you. jason, let me start with you. that interaction was gold because you even said, they'll give you every single vote to count yourself and she wouldn't even have believed what she saw with her very own eyes. what she would have counted herself. is this ultimately what you're seeing across the board when you go to the rallies that through and through, a lot of the believers, the people who show up for trump over and over again, they believe the election was stolen no matter what they're told or shown? >> yes. in fact, i don't know that we talked to anybody in the last, the last year, that said the election was not stolen. and that is a fact, that joe biden won the election. so it is, it seems like it's almost a religious belief. if you say the election was not stolen, you are kind of going against the, trump. i don't know if you agree.

>> yeah. absolutely. it's like a faith thing. she wouldn't have trust in her own eyes but she trusts the word of trump. it is like group think thing. the only person who said they were sick of hearing about the stolen election was a guy we ran into at dinner last night. he said he was a trump supporter but then said he wished he would stop talking about it. that's the one. >> did everything to the rally? >> he didn't. no, no. we dipped out early. we left before trump spoke because really, you see one speech, you've seen them all. and we ended up at some barbecue place and struck up a conversation with a guy who was very much a trump supporter. >> as you would. as you would. i want to play another piece of sound that you got yesterday. you were speaking to someone who was an anti-vaxxer. let's listen to what he had to say. >> why did you make the decision not to get the vaccine?

>> for me, type o negative blood. i do smoke and there were studies that have come out of france. nicotine users tend to also not be susceptible. >> reporter: whoa! interesting. so nicotine users are not susceptible. lung cancer might be one of the exceptions. >> well, i don't smoke the name brand stuff. >> reporter: is that how you spell villain? >> no. a-i-n. v-i-l-l-a-i-n. >> i grabbed the wrong graphic when i sent it to the t-shirt place to make a prototype. >> reporter: but you still wore it today. >> yeah. >> i grabbed the wrong graphic but i decided to continue to print my t-shirt. and by the way, noticed idea that it is only like marlboro and all the other name brands that cause lung cancer. if you smoke an off brand -- >> if you buy your own and roll it, it is a healthy choice, it sounds like.

>> the more you know. >> right. according to this guy, i guess, can he be super doomer healthy. he did say his parents got vaccinated and ended up coming down with covid and lived. but bottom go so far as to say that they were saved by the vaccine. so complicated viewpoints. >> villian, yeah. it has to be tough to face these individuals. have you gotten any vitriol? any people wanting to come after you, feeling as if you're making fun of them? you're not actually there to understand how and what they think? >> i mean, yes. at times people get upset with us. we like to think we're there to talk to people. to figure out what they think and what they believe. at times, people realize we're kind of trying to appointment out the hypocrisy.

we've been kicked out of a million things. we think it is worth it and we'll keep going to these events. >> we appreciate you bringing it to us. one other interaction i was not able to play was taking apart a history and arguing against the taking down of the statue of andrew jackson which i thought was ironic conversation the covering we've been having all hour about the banning of books. the books about racism in this country. thank you, guys. good liars. great work. that wraps up the hour for me. i'll be back next saturday, sunday, 3:00 p.m. eastern. reverend al sharpton and "politics nation" starts right now. good evening and welcome to politics nation. tonight's lead, a bridge to the ballot. right now, as