to believe that my sister is with us and that we are together. i know it is not my time yet. ♪ ♪ ♪ this sunday a change at the supreme court. >> the announced retirement of justice stephen breyer. >> people have come to accept this constitution and they have come to accept the -- >> president biden a chance to make an historic appointment. >> that person will be the first black person ever nominated to the supreme court. >> and a disappointed corps of democratic voters. despite the votes, will the president still try to fight this nomination? >> they're trying to use this to distract from what is their failed agenda.

plus, russia moves more troops to ukraine's border. >> i think you would have to go back to the cold war days to see something of this magnitude. >> it was enough troops to move far into ukraine, sparking conflict. my guests this morning, dick durbin. as far as covid, despite spikes in some states -- >> things are at unprecedented levels. >> cases are heading down in all regions of the country even as a new omicron variant emerges. >> i think another wave is unlikely. i'll talk to two governors, governor phil murphy of new jersey and asa hutchinson of chicago. about the fight against covid and the political divide. joining me for inside analysis are nbc news correspondent carol lee, eugene scott of the "washington post," democratic senator claire mccaskill, and stephen hayes.

founder of the dispatch. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> announcer: the longest running show in television history. this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. and a good sunday morning. just last week we said president biden was in desperate need of a reset, his polling numbers falling in particular among african americans and there's real fear that his midterm momentum will be sunk, from the lack of enthusiasm by the very voters who put him into office. just like that, mr. biden was thrown a lifeline with the news that justice stephen breyer would retire at the end of his term. president biden would be assigning a black woman on the appointing a black woman to the first court opening he had, that could help with declining support. serving as a reminder that elections have consequences and they matter. and getting a supreme court nominee a win would give mr. biden a win against the

political disappointments with voting rights and build back better. of course, replacing breyer with another liberal won't change the tilt, but president biden has a chance to put real points on the board and at least temporarily change the narrative of his presidency. >> it's long overdue. >> president biden looking over supreme court picks hoping to regain political momentum after a difficult month. >> the person i nominate will be someone with extraordinary qualifications, character, experience and integrity. and that person will be the first black woman ever nominated to the united states supreme court. >> mr. biden's approval rating among african americans has dropped nearly 20 points since april to just 64%. >> do you think president biden has done enough for black women voters? >> i really don't. >> now he has a chance to show he can keep his campaign promises. >> i'm looking forward to making sure there is a black woman on the supreme court. >> this is a promise that was made and a promise that will be

kept. >> among the contenders, ketanji brown jackson, leondra kruger. brown jackson, a former breyer law clerk 51 and twice confirmed by the senate including once by this senate. >> i'm not ejecting my personal views, i'm evenhandedly applying the law. >> leondra krueger a justice on california's supreme court, and clerked for john paul stevens, 45, a deputy in the solicitor general's office during the obama administration arguing a dozen cases before the supreme court. >> and mi sheld childs a federal judge in south carolina, recently nominated to the court of appeals for the dc circuit, 55 and clerked with jim clyburn. >> she's got a bachelor's degree from university of south florida, she has a doctorate she has a jurisdoctorate from the university of south carolina, from duke university. she's thoroughly southern. >> now a vote that requires the senate will give him months of

party rules on voting rights and build back better. while some conservatives would like to take an aggressive approach -- >> this is a hard woke left administration. >> the irony is that the supreme court is at the very same time hearing cases about this sort of affirmative racial discrimination, and while adding someone who is a beneficiary of this sort of quota. >> without votes to block the nomination, most republicans are signaling they will stay focused on high prices. >> rampant inflation. incredible inflation. >> a 40-year high in the united states. >> the white house hopes it fires up progressives. >> when you don't change people's lives, people get upset. >> and remind democrats of the supreme court fights to come, including the likelihood that

the court will look at protections for abortion rights. >> this is going to be a massive issue at the ballot boxes, there's just no question about it. there is going to be rage. >> but with inflation on dragged-out democrats, the question is when can the supreme court appointment break through? >> where is the war room on the cost of living? >> with us now dick durbin of illinois. senator durbin, welcome back to "meet the press." >> thanks, chuck. >> you'll be overseeing this confirmation process of whoever the president ends up selecting. before we get into specific names, i want to get into a couple numbers here. amy coney barrett, 27 days from nomination to confirmation, sonia sotomayor, 60 days from nomination to confirmation. i know you decried the speed with what happened with amy coney barrett. and what should we expect time line-wise, closer to sonja sotomayor or closer to amy coney barrett? >> if that person is seeking the

supreme court, then they know quite a lot about that person, and that can be taken into consideration. if there's no new developments of someone who has been before the committee in the previous year or two, it makes a real difference. i'll just say this. it's going to be fair, it's going to be deliberate and we're going to be timely about it, too. this is a lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land. we should take it seriously. >> look, i'm obviously going to try to pin you down one more time on timing. easter recess, mid-april. is that a fair target at this point to get it done before you guys take off? >> before. by the amy coney barrett test, yes, it is. we'll see what develops. a great deal, maybe all of it, depends on the nominee and the background. >> you said something interesting to me, you said it

depends if they've been before the committee before. ketanji brown jackson, she's been there before. she's received 53 votes. based on that, do you think she should be a frontrunner for this post? >> i sure don't want to speculate on that. the white house made it clear when they told me about the breyer vacancy that the president had not made the decision, and i want to respect that. i think suggesting there is a frontrunner or this person is now moving ahead, it's unfair to all the nominees. this is in the hands of the president as it should be. >> what kind of conversations have you had with the ranking member, lindsey graham, about what kind of process this is going to be, or are relations just sort of, eh, it's just not how it works anymore? >> i would say that the ranking member is now the senator from iowa. >> sorry, my apologies. >> i called him the next day,

we had a brief conversation about it. and i have a good working relationship with senator grassley. we really trust one another. i like him, and i hope he likes me as much, and i think we're going to do the best to serve our country in this capacity. he's been through it, i've been through it for seven of the current supreme court justices. i suggest he might even be in for a longer term and has really faced them all, so we do have experience on the subject. >> you know, it's interesting here, clarence thomas is about to become the only member of the current supreme court, nominated by one party and confirmed by a senate of another party. do you think we'll see that again in our lifetime? >> think about that with stephen breyer. here's a man who worked as chief assistant to ted kennedy, and when his vote came up in the senate, he was approved 87-9. it's an indication of the good old days when there was much more bipartisanship.

but my goal is to make sure we have a more deliberate, timely hearing but also to reach out to the republican side and see if they can join us to make it a bipartisan nomination. i think it speaks well of the court and the senate if we can achieve it. >> i want to ask about one more aspect of the supreme court nominees that has become the norm. it's something that was written about because it's about age now. no one would choose anyone over the age of 60. even the most experienced judges by definition have been honing their craft for a long time. they need to find a nominee that can plausibly be served to the public to have cleared the bar. it is sort of a conundrum here. that we do rush these folks on to the judiciary, if we think, you know, both party does it, if we think they have the qualifications to get on the supreme court. are we choosing age too quickly these days?

>> it's a factor. i'm not going to mislead you, in the selection of judges at every level. i have a lot of my friends in chicago who are attorneys in their 60s who would like to cap off their career by being a federal judge. it really doesn't make sense when you consider how long they're likely to serve before they reach senior status or leave quickly. we do look for younger candidates, younger by supreme court and federal court standards. it's done on both sides. i don't think there's any surprise that both republicans and democrats would like some longevity in the service. >> i want to turn to the issue of ukraine. both you and my other republican guest are chair of the ukranian senate caucus, if you will. both you and senator portman have large ukrainian populations in your states. i'm curious of what you said of president ze lenski said on

friday. he seemed to wonder why russia hadn't been punished yet. he was concerned it looked like we were waiting until after we after he was encroaching on the border of ukraine, not before. what would you say to him? >> i would say, president zelensky, we need to accept one basic premise. any decision made will be made by ukraine. it won't be made in washington or the european union or belarus. it's their future, their fate and their decision, as far as that's concerned. i have listened closely to what president zelensky has said, and he reminds us time and time again that there could be a way out of this short of military action, and i hope there is. but it's his decision to make. if he decides that the future membership, if there is to be one in nato for ukraine, and the question of occupation in ukraine are two things to put on the table, i think we could move to a solution for this, and i hope we do soon. >> that's interesting, you think he would accept limitations on

his relationship with nato? >> i don't want to assume anything. it's his decision entirely. but as i listen to the diplomacy back and forth, it seems to me that the russians want to try to delay any ukraine involvement in nato and ukraine, of course, wants the russians out. i'm not talking just about the troops at the border but those who invaded their country seven or eight years ago, and currently the little green men, or however they characterize it, continue the warfare in killing. >> that's a pretty optimistic note you're sounding. you really think we'll have a diplomatic exit here? >> well, we better be prepared for the worst, and i think the president is stiffening our resolve to face that if we have to with serious sanctions and our nato forces doing everything they can to protect the baltics and poland and other countries. i do like the fact that the diplomacy continues, and that to me is an encouraging sign.

>> senator dick durbin, democrat of illinois, member of the senate and judiciary committee, we'll be seeing a lot of you as these hearings get started. thank you for your opinion. >> thanks, chuck. with me senator portman from ohio. senator portman, welcome back to "meet the press." >> thanks, chuck. >> i know you and mr. durbin had head the ukrainian senate caucus and you were recently in country, met with president zelensky. i kind of want to pick up on the conversation i just stopped with senator durbin. do you share this sense that zelensky, that ukraine itself might be willing to limit its interests in nato as a de-escalation tool with the russians? is that a viable, diplomatic solution here? >> well, look, it's up to nato and up to ukraine. nato has an open door policy and we have to continue to defend that. i don't think that's something

we're going to decide. i will say two things. one, dick durbin and i are co-chairs of this caucus and we have been unified as republicans and democrats in standing up to what russia has done, both with regard to what they did with crimea of seven and eight years ago and the dombas region. in other words they have already invaded ukraine twice. and certainly now while russia has this intimidating force on the border and elsewhere. so we are together. second, we are working together for a strongage which includes sanctions, which includes military assistance, which would include fighting the cyber attacks that russia continues to use on ukraine, and also the disinformation campaign that they are actively involved in to destabilize the ukrainian government. this is where the cause of freedom is being waged, and we need to stand up as democrats

and republicans. >> i wonder if you can explain what zelensky is saying publicly and perhaps what he is saying privately. during his press conference on friday, he was a bit critical of some western leaders, including president biden, feeling as if they're talking up war too much. here's what he said, a bit of the translation. the signals were sent by respected leaders of their respective countries. sometimes they're not even using diplomatic language. this means panic of the market, panic of the country. he wishes our sanctions would be imposed before russia were to invade it. we need more weapons. is he saying one thing behind the scenes and saying one thing for public consumption? >> well, look, he's got a slightly different constituency than president biden. president biden's job is to mobilize our allies, mobilize america to be prepared for the possibility that vladimir putin will make a huge mistake and put together consequences that will

be devastating to try to avoid that from happening. president zelensky is trying to maintain his economic growth in his country, which by the way, is pretty strong right now, and keep the country from panicking while having them be prepared. but we're together. that's what's important. as to russia and what russia is doing, the ukranians and the americans are absolutely together. but so are so many other allies. really the entire free world. it's been very impressive as i look at what estonia, lithuania, the baltics, finland and denmark, canada and the u.k. have done. our alliances are very strong. one thing vladimir putin has done successfully is he has strengthened the trans-atlantic alliance and there are countries around the world who say we cannot let this stand, we cannot let this happen. for the first time since world war ii, we could have a major conflict and a very bloody conflict in europe unless we stand up together and push back. and so far so good, we're doing

that. my hope is that vladimir putin will see that and realize the consequences will be devastating for him. by the way, chuck, the other thing that was interesting in being there is that the commitment and the patriotism of the ukranians. i've been at the line of contact. i was there in 2014 after this revolution of dignity. ukranians feel a very strong sense of nationalism, and they're going to fight. >> senator, you're speaking very optimistically about the western alliance. germany hasn't exactly been, let's say, as aggressive as perhaps the rest of the western alliance would be, whether it's on shipping weapons or on dealing with this north stream pipeline. are you confident that if russia invades, germany will be on board, cutting off the nordstrom you canning off the north stream pipeline? >> well, apparently they're saying that privately. they should say it publicly. i'm also, as you know, a little

disappointed in their inability to approve arms sales. if something was made in germany, in east germany they made howitzers that are with the estonians. they want to supply them to ukraine. these are artillery weapons that the ukranians need badly, yet germany is not approving it. that makes no sense to me, and i've made it very clear in conversations with the germans and others. my hope is that germany will step up even more. but they're with us. they said they would cut off north stream 2 pipeline, should there be an invasion of any type, and i certainly hope that's true. >> i want to ask about republican unity on this issue. i have to play a clip here from tucker carlson which has been leading more rank and file republicans to question what we're doing with russia and ukraine. here's what he said. >> at this point nato exists primarily to torment vladimir putin, with however many faults, has no intention of invading western europe. vladimir putin does not want

belgium, he just wants to keep his western border secure. >> i'm sure you love being asked about a cable tv news host, but it has led quite a bit of rank and file americans to ask this question. are you worried that there is a movement in the republican party that has become pro-putin? >> i wouldn't call it a movement, but i think we have to be sure we're understanding what's going on here. the ukranians are not asking for american troops to come to ukraine. i've gotten a number of phone calls from these cable news shows saying, you know, we've got to keep our troops out of there. they're not asking for our troops, nor is anybody talking about that. we are talking about strengthening the countries around the region who are looking for more help, nato countries like the baltics, like poland. second, again, this is about the fight for freedom. this is a country that has decided that they want to be like us. they want to be a democracy. they want to respect the rule of law. they want to have a free

enterprise system that's strong and vibrant. this has all happened in the last eight years, and they have turned to the eu and turned to the united states and said, we want to be part of the west. by the way, everyone speaks for ukraine. one of the reasons why vladimir putin is moving now because he sees it falling toward the west. i think people ought to believe that sovereignty matters and the dignity of the ukranian people matters, and this is what they want. so their territorial integrity is at risk right now, and it's appropriate that the free world stand by them. >> senator portman, republican from ohio who happens to be retiring, i was going to make you do your icky shuffle today. i have claire mccaskill on the panel. she has her chiefs mask. i'll tell her to do the icky shuffle if you guys pull the upset. how is that?

>> i did wear my bengals mask at national last weekend, but we shall see. go, bengals. >> thanks for coming on. when we come back, will president biden's chance to replace stephen breyer on the supreme court give him the political lift he and his party so desperately need? next y so desperately need? next

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welcome back. panelists here, claire mccaskill, carol lee, stephen hayes, founder of "the dispatch" and your new cufflinks are in the mail. a new member of nbc news. carol lee, we said this was a lifeline politically for the president. did you notice a change in the white house posture this week? >> absolutely. chuck, they see this as a moment to reset. if you think about the timing of it, it comes a week after the divisions over the voting rights legislation. so when you talk to white house officials, they cast this as an opportunity to rally the party

to kind of take a breath, remind everybody what their goals are and to come together and be unified, and they see two moments where this could be particularly energizing. obviously right now, when they have this opportunity, the president is going to have the moment when they have a name and something the party can really rally behind. in terms of politically going forward, they don't see this as something that will define the midterms, it will be a line or two in a speech, but for now it allows them to take a breath, talk quietly about how they figure out a path forward on some of the president's legislative agenda, while also putting forward a unified front after having all of these divisions. i want to put up this statistic so people understand, why so many people believe it is about time for an african american on the high court. there are 1400 judges, just 51

of them right now are african american women. that's less than 14%. the importance of this to african americans given their representation on the courts. >> it's significant. this is a segment of the judiciary where there has not been a black woman who looks like them, but to your notes earlier, it's also important to people who have a high level of diversity and so many of these constituents were key players in helping biden get to the white house. so not just black leaders, but women who understand that the bench has not looked like one that so many find them seeing in these times. >> you've been a star in terms of people's point of view. what should we expect? is this one going to be drama free? >> i would think mitch mcconnell

is not going to want to draw this out. sometimes the drama around the nomination motivates bases. i certainly felt that in 2018. >> a reverse. >> a reverse, yeah. a football day, over and under is about 53 votes for the nominee in the senate, maybe 54 if he goes with a non -- and i think susan collins, senator mour cowski has been fairly down the middle on nominees. when i was a young attorney in the courtrooms in the kansas city, the only woman i had seen in a black wobe was in the church choir. we have made progress in a lot of ways, but not ever have we had a black woman on the supreme court. i'm sick and tired of the republicans, because ronald reagan put a woman on the court and they didn't say boo.

>> donald trump said it last time. >> i was going to say, it feels like roger wicker did, and i don't know if he knows he intended, he did actually made it harder now for republicans to criticize his pick? he went in a direction -- we don't even know the pick yet. >> that's the point. you need to know who the pick is. before we talk about votes, we need to know who the pick is and what are her credentials are, what she's done. >> let's put them up here, we have ketanji jackson, leondra kruger. on the california supreme court. michelle childs is about to be on the dc circuit although they're delaying her because she's up for this. these resumes look like any others for the supreme court. >> and beyond this with many other qualified candidates. >> i don't think there's anything wrong with president biden making a critical argument when he said in the context of a campaign, having lost in iowa

and new hampshire, that he was going to pick a black woman. it helped him. it was a political announcement. republicans were fine with that point. i think they would be wise to wait to look at the actual credentials and the arguments of the women who are nominated. >> the white house was ready for this. they were prepared for the white house to lean this direction. there are people close to the president, political advisors, who do think republicans want to pick this fight, it's one they want to have. talk about energizing. >> you're smiling on this. >> i think this is going to be a strong moment for the biden presidency. i think if anybody doesn't understand how important black women are in the democratic party, they're not paying attention. >> eugene, does this give kyrsten sinema and joe manchin a chance to repair their relationship with the democratic base? >> it certainly does, and that is something that could very well happen, especially manchin who was very critical of the

republicans last time when amy coney barrett was moved forward close to the presidential election, and they have a track record of supporting the president when it comes to moving forward his judge picks. it would be consistent of them to do that in this situation. >> and carol, on timing, how fast does the white house want to do this? >> that's interesting. i thought senator durbin's comments were interesting because he didn't really weigh in. you had senate majority leader schumer say this is going to be really fast. and others saying this is going to be a time line, and it will be a process, and meeting with others. they're going to announce an outside sherpa team who will come from outside the white house. they want to move methodically. if that's fast, they're fine with that, but they want to show they're doing a very deliberative and thorough process. >> would you use this as cover right now so you could do build back better negotiations behind

the scenes so there is no ankle biting. >> i don't think there is a reason for this to be put on after-burners in terms of speed, and i think the white house realizes that. i think they need to do this flawlessly. they need to make sure whoever is selected is vetted thoroughly, they need to count some republican votes before they announce her, and i think all of that will happen, and the timing of it, i think late summer would be probably perfect. >> so you would let it drag -- drag is the wrong word -- let it methodically play out very publicly? >> i think so. the only thing i'm not up on right now is the health of all the members. >> i was just going to say, there's always risks and there's no way to talk about other than it's called life. >> it's called life. when we come back, with covid cases falling but deaths still rising, we'll talk to governor phil murphy and asa hutchinson. and the growing american

political divide. and they are going to be on the set together. it used to not be a big deal it used to not be a big deal. . it's a big deal. stay with us. it's a big deal. stay with us

welcome back. there's actually been some welcome news on covid recently. the 7-day average of cases has dropped about a third the welcome back. there's actually been some welcome news on covid recently. the 7-day average of cases has dropped about a third the past two weeks with every single state showing a decrease. but they are a lagging indicator. the government has been on the front lines of this covid battle, and that battle means they've been at the front lines of our many political divisions. 77% of americans said our differences were likely to grow, other than just 27% who agree that while we have differences, we always seem to come together. joining me now, asa hutchinson of arkansas, governor phil murphy of new jersey. you are here for the national governors association which used to be a powerful entity here. governor hutchen, let me start with you. governor hutchins, let me start

with you. in these extraordinarily divisive times, what can you guys do to make the nga actually effective in a bipartisan way. how do you do it? >> first of all, i'm glad to be on this show with governor murphy. he's a vice chair, will next year be the chair for the nga. for 114 years the government has been convening in a bipartisan way to work on challenges and promises. let me assure everyone, there are still differences. governor murphy and i disagree on a lot of issues and we can fight over those, but there's so many things we can work as governors on. this is what's great, we gather together as governors. we meet, we discuss, we set aside the things we can't agree on, but when you're looking at infrastructure, when you're looking at computer science, which is my initiative, when you're looking at the challenges of covid, we benefit from discussing and working on these things together, and it's a common voice that we can have with the administration. so it's been very productive in a bipartisan way, and i think

it's a good example for america. >> governor murphy, what is realistic, though? what is realistic that can get agreed to? >> i would echo much of what asa has said. i actually think the nga is a very formidable, effective organization, and i think governors have never mattered more. if you look at the agenda this weekend, reiterate infrastructure, important across the aisle. computer science education, which the chair has pioneered or ran on the past year. covid response to pick three. education more broadly. i'm an optimist. i think those numbers go the other way, chuck. i think we're going to see more commonality -- again, we're not going to agree on everything. that's never going to happen. but i believe we're going to actually find more common ground as opposed to less. >> let's talk about preparing for the next wave. and i say it this way because we don't know how big it is, we don't know how small it is, but i would like to think everybody has learned some lessons from

what happened pre-omicron. if we assume we're going to get hit seasonally now, what do you need in the next five months, if it's another summer surge like what you dealt with, what do you think you need from the federal government that lets you have the tools you need to handle the summer surge? >> first of all, we're delighted to see our cases go down. we just peaked last week. we hope the omicron continues to go down. we believe it will. i do believe we need to move from a pandemic status in a mode of operation to more endemic where we're normalizing, taking it very seriously preparing, but i think we need to move out of the panic mode. i think we need to handle this to make sure that we continue with our normal lives. but the response should be, and there's two things, because we know that there will be additional variants coming down the way. first of all, it's to continue to build the infrastructure. for my state and other

governors, we want to make sure our testing capacity is there. we want to make sure that we have access to the therapeutics, and that's where the federal government needs to step up. we need to make sure that there is a quick production. they need to rely upon the states for the distribution, and there is a lot of discussions about that. they need to improve that supply chain. let's take advantage of this going down to be better prepared around the corner. >> governor murphy, how do we not run into the testing problem we ran into pre-omicron? >> you have to preempt this clearly and we're now getting caught up as a country. thankfully our cases are going down in new jersey, new york, went down early on all of these waves. but i agree with governor hutchinson. we're not going to manage this to zero. we have to learn how to live with this. please, god, there is not another significant wave. every time you think you got this thing figured out, it humbles you. >> you decided to make the booster part of a mandate. >> yes. >> you obviously haven't done

any mandates and i'm well aware of the policies of arkansas. but there's been a vaccination problem, but you've got an even bigger discrepancy, political discrepancy, ds and rs, when it comes to boosters, and you've run into some problems. do you have a new message try to get people to get boosted? >> first of all, it's very important. i've got my boost and i'm delighted with it because i think it adds a great level of protection. so it's education. quite frankly, the mandates that were imposed at the federal level that the supreme court struck down were counterproductive, as we predicted, that i predicted. it increases resistance. our vaccination rate has slowed. we're continuing to go up gradually. the heavy-handed approach doesn't work. it's got to be that education, it's got to be that consistent messaging, so we want to improve those numbers but the right path is not by the mandate route. >> why haven't mandates worked for you?

you added the booster before the cdc has? >> yes, we tweaked the booster. we broaden the community. we included corrections, other vulnerable areas. >> do you think mandates work? because governor hutchins thinks they're counter-productive. what say you? >> the u.s. supreme court has upheld biden's request on health care, and that was an easy step for us to take. boosters add much more defense for you. frankly, in new jersey, we're getting more people boosted. i think it's a national challenge. whether it's mandated or not, we got to get more folks boosted. >> i want to talk about the political divide here a little bit. just sitting here together, some might criticize you. some of the left may criticize you, some of the right may criticize you. it kind of is an absurd thing this has happened. what's the way to fix it in arkansas? it looks to me like politics

have gone further to the right. and arkansas is going to be more divisive. your likely successor is probably going to play a little bit further to the right than you. >> the key thing is leadership. leadership needs to set an example. phil and i, we fight in the partisan trenches and elections, we feel strongly about our respective parties. but once you get elected, you serve all the people, and you got to find a common ground to address the problems of america and our states. and so that's setting the right example in that. that doesn't weaken us in terms of the criticism or the differences of opinion, but we have to be responsible adults whenever we're leading a state. and we've got to implement things that impact people's lives. so to me it's leadership, but it's also the communication. that's what the nga does, it brings us together and we're not together enough. >> governor murphy, in the past, the governors might be an interesting group to lobby and

talk about electoral reform. is that going to be on your agenda this week, and is there a way to sort of -- we see that some states are going off into some uncomfortable places. is the nga going to try to play a role here, or is this issue too divisive? >> i should make one point. there are 39 governors here, by the way, contingent for both parties. >> the three largest aren't. for what it's worth, newsom, desantis and -- >> you would love to hear 50. i think that's one where it will be a pretty partisan debate and divide, honestly. >> you guys probably can't come together. >> we want to expand it in new jersey and i'm proud of that. i know other states are taking a different approach to that. that's probably one we'll have to agree to disagree, sadly, in my opinion. but there is a lot of common ground. infrastructure, education and so on. >> what do you expect to hear from the president tomorrow? you guys are meeting with him at the governors' ball tomorrow, right? >> we are. first of all, i expect to -- his

administration has really been responsive on questions we've had about the infrastructure spending. i expect the president to talk about bipartisanship. i'd actually like to see that implemented in policies that go forward. but this is an annual tradition i expect to go very well. >> like you said, with an infrastructure bill to tell you how to implement, i imagine everyone is going to be in a pretty good mood. thank you both. i appreciate you coming on together. when we come back, is there a freedom of speech on college campuses? it depends on who you ask. that's next. it depends on who yo . that's next. or fist bump there, or...oh! i can't wait to go there! or reunite there, ♪ ♪ start here. walgreens makes it easy to stay protected wherever you go. schedule your free covid-19 booster today.

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welcome back. data download time. the increasingly common debate over free speech took a few different forms this week. whether you're talking about podcasts or spotify or books in classrooms, it remains to be seen what you can say in public. nowhere is this more important than on college campuses. these days the importance of freedom of speech. 84% of all students agree on the importance of freedom of speech. they are broken down between all-white males and females. there was a majority of students who all felt free speech was pretty secure in this country. two years later, the numbers haven't changed among democrats, but down almost 50% among

republican students, double digits among independents who believe free speech in this country is not as secure as it was two years ago. this extends to college campuses themselves is the school's climate is stifling free expression. half the students thought it did in 2016. 435 -- 54%. five years later, it's up even more, 65%. that doesn't mean that some students don't believe there should be some curbing of some speech. for instance, there are majorities that colleges should be able to restrict offensive racial slurs. but go down. how about close with confederate how about clothes with confederate flags? only a third believe colleges should do this. this issue of free speech is something that students care about and, with their experiences on campuses these days, are worried about. when we come back, pentagon officials are warning that russia has enough troops to move

far into ukraine. but why does the ukraine government say the u.s. is overstating the russian threat? stay with us. . is overstating the russian threat stay with us

as you know for mon as you know for months now, russia has been deploying forces to crimea and along ukraine's border, including in belarus. while we don't believe president putin has made a final decision to use these forces against ukraine, he clearly now has that capability. >> carol lee, those were some pretty striking words by the secretary of defense. very straightforward, and it was almost a bit alarming at how -- i think you and i were talking about this the other day, it almost felt like they were taunting putin like, okay, you've got everything. what are you going to do? >> if you talk to administration officials, there is a growing concern, and particularly you heard chairman of the joint chiefs of staffs general milley saying you would have to go back to the cold war in terms of this magnitude, in terms of air power, ballistic missiles,

100,000 ground troops, that that is something that could become horrific, was the word that he used. what they're trying to do is essentially lay the groundwork for something that people in the administration really genuinely believe could take place. at the same time, then, you see the president of ukraine, zelensky, taking a very different tone. what i've been told by administration officials is that that's not the ukrainian view, in private con segment, they're much more calm about, this and he has to worry about the population. he has a domestic audience to play to also. he has to worry about people panicking. one of the interesting things about this, if you look at the afghanistan example, they were critical of not being pulled out of overseas, now they're taking a very different tact and different environment and moving some families of diplomats out of ukraine.

>> yet president zelensky was upset we were shipping out our embassy saying hey, stop sending that message. >> exactly. he wants to keep his approval ratings high. he wants people to believe that things are safe and not panicking, but he also needs western allies to be available to push back on russia if they move forward because they can't protect themselves without our help. >> steve, it feels like we're trying to figure out, is putin a rational actor? >> that's a good question. i think when we look at this from our perspective, we look at the things he's doing and we say, this doesn't make a lot of sense. you see that in reporting of the media. but go back and look at what vladimir putin has been saying all these years. he was telling us what he wants to do. he wants to reconstitute the russian empire, the old soviet union. when you have autocratic leaders like that tell you what they want to do, you're smart to pay attention.

the problem, from my perspective about the biden administration, is this alarm comes a little too late. it's not like these 100,000 troops just went to the border, and they've been there for a long time and you have republicans raising arms, about what putin was up to, pointing out the kinds of military assets that were in position months ago. and the biden administration seems to be just catching up. >> claire? >> first of all, i think you have to assume putin is rational. he may be irrational. if i had to look, i would say he's trying to mine the divisions within nato right now. he's trying to exacerbate the germany being an outlier and being worried about being all-in against him. he wants to highlight macron. >> that's the assumption that he's rational. >> that he's trying to make nato not a strong alliance by playing this card at this time. and the other thing i got to say, you say republicans. the other thing that's happening here, it's amplifying a divide

in the republican party. when you've got people on the fox cable news network -- >> look, he's being used. tucker carlson. i could show you some clips here. he's being used on rt, the propaganda arm of putin, all the time now. >> republicans are letting up on putin right now. a bunch of them. >> donald trump did this earlier, right? he did this throughout his presidency, he was very warm in his rhetoric to vladimir putin, even though his policies were tougher in some respects than joe biden's. the challenge is he's trying to exploit these divisions. he's doing it in nato on an international scale. it wasn't helpful, i think, when the president talked about nato divisions almost as an analyst, like he were here with us on the roundtable. >> he spoke honestly. >> honestly, but when rob

portman said in his conversation with you was a lot more appropriate for a leader fortunate country like the united states saying, look, we're doing what we can to bring nato together. on the domestic side, there is no question that republicans are divided on this. i hear republicans saying irresponsible things about vladimir putin, pretending he's not the threat that he is. >> part of the reason you're seeing this alarm right now is because the window is closing for any sort of diplomatic resolution. if you look at the timeline in terms of when putin would invade, the administration said mid february to the end of march. that's when this would happen. so there is a very limited amount of time for diplomacy. i thought senator durbin's comments to you was very interesting in that he was putting this on the ukranians. why don't you just say he wouldn't join nato? i talked to officials over the weekend and they won't touch that, at least not publicly. but the other question is, would it be enough? >> that's an interesting question that i don't have time to deal with here. that's all we have for today. thank you for watching. next week as the olympics get underway, i'm not going to jinx the bengals or the chiefs by saying go to either one of them.

the bills and the packers are out. either way, enjoy today's games. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." ♪♪ ♪ it's sunday, it's "meet the president biden of says he plans to send troops to eastern europe. even as the president of ukraine plays down the threat of a russian invasion. the question is, how soon could american forces be deployed? plus, a stunning admission from donald trump as he puts in writing that he wanted mike pence to quote overturn the election. the question is, are prosecutors listening? and a surprising super bowl 56 is set. the cincinnati bengals versus the los angeles rams. after pulling off a stunning comeback in the afc championship game, the question is will the bengals be able to overcom