may not be over and if more top musicians or labels pull their songs from spotify, it could be a real business risk for the company. we'll be watching closely. that does it for me. see you right here tomorrow but a reminder, you can watch me all weekend fridays at 7:00 p.m. on peacock and saturdays at 8:00; sundays at 9:00 here on msnbc. "the reidout" with joy reid is next. >> your show is incredible. if people are missing it, they're truly missing out. always great to see you. >> greatly appreciate that, joy. >> cheers. happy monday and good evening. we begin "the reidout" with what should sound like a familiar story. 12 years ago in 2010, the prowestern, proreform government of ukraine was narrowly defeated at the ballot box ousted by a kremlin backed gangster who vowed to never allow his country to join the ranks of nato.

that man was a low key criminal and failed politician who was pushed to power by wealthy olga -- oligarchs. it didn't matter it was a haven for mobsters, the key is to replace the key western government in kyiv with a puppet and manafort was happy to oblige. needless to say, they entered a downward spiral of crackdowns and the political opponent well, she was literally locked up after her defeat. it's normal practice she told time magazine in reference to the jailing of the opposition leader. the party is powerful. the voters support it. when western countries objected to her arrest, manafort hired lobbiests in washington to spin the imprisonment of ukraine's

commitment to the rule of law. their job is to say white is black and black is white. manafort's apprentice donald trump who he helped to elect in 2016 with russia's backing is acting like the ukraiian strong man and embarked from the -- he's emerged from the maga cocoon as a fully formed authoritarian butterfly. trump is not only endorsing january 6th but proming to reward the insurrectionists. trump said this weekend if he retakes the white house in 2024, he may offer them presidential pardons. >> another thing we'll do and so many people have been asking me about it, if i run and if i win, we will treat those people from january 6th fairly. we will treat them fairly. and if it requires pardons, we will give them pardons. >> behind the scenes, trump is also planning a massive coverup

of his role in inciting the vier -- violence that day seeking to bolster the conspiracy theory the fbi did it. according to "the daily beast" trump said congressional candidates and operatives in recent months that republicans on capitol hill should be prepared to launch a full blown investigation to get to the bottom of how fbi agents supposedly cause violence and mayhem on january 6th. at the same time, trump is mobilizing his maga cult against the law enforcement entities that could stand in the way of another run for president. here is how he lashed out at new york's attorney general, manhattan's district attorney and the d.a. of fulton county georgia, all of whom are investigating him and all of whom happen to be black. >> these prosecutors are vicious, horrible people. they're racists, and they're very sick, they're mentally sick. they're going after me without any protection of my rights by

the supreme court or most other courts. in reality, they're not after me, they're after you. >> trump summed his supporters much like he did before january 6th to take to the streets in a massive show of force if he's prosecuted. >> if these radical vicious, racist prosecutors do anything wrong or illegal, i hope we are going to have in this country the biggest protest we have ever had in washington d.c. in new york, in atlanta, and elsewhere because our country and our elections are corrupt. >> separately, trump also signalled last night that he is no longer even willing to pay lip service to democratic elections. he's now attacking the republican lawmakers who are seeking to reform the electoral count act of 1887 so there is zero ambiguity about the vice president's power of lack thereof when it comes to certifying the votes of the electoral college but that's not

what donald trump wants followers to believe. he's claiming that efforts to reform the law, which by the way are no substitute for federal reforms that reverse these republican on the right to vote but those laws -- this change to the law is just validation that mike pence did have the right to change the outcome and that lawmakers are now trying to take that right away. he whined that pence could have overturned the election. actually marked the first time trump dropped his cover story of massive voter fraud and explicitly stated that his goal was indeed to overturn the election he lost. joining me is jason johnson professor of journalism and politics at morgan state university and writer for "the new yorker" and author of "surviving autocracy." i would love for you to tease out for us, these ways donald trump is really emerging from a

cocoon as a full authoritarian. threatening to go after the fbi, investigate them for being the real attackers on january 6th and all the rest. your thoughts? >> well, the project that donald trump is following right now, we actually know this is not so much from ukraine or russia, actually but from a couple of other eastern central european countries where we saw an autocrat attempt and when the autocrat was out of office, by attacking the legitimacy of the legitimate government. it's a very familiar narrative. it's not that the biden administration is doing something wrong but shouldn't exist at all. the only legitimate

administration in this country is the trump administration, right? which is why we keep continues or he keeps continuing to return to the supposedly fraudulent election and enter january 6th, you would think logically may not be the most beneficial thing to return to if you're attacking administration on the merits but he's attacking administration as legitimate. >> let me play for you, liz cheney and jason johnson. let me throw this to you. the people that don't want him to do this are norm core consecutive republicans that want to see a republican party return to something that can go back to the regan tax cutting, that kind of thing. fine with that. it's just this kind of thing. she's not for it. here she is talking about what trump said this weekend. >> well, i think certainly, the two things, suggesting that he

would provide pardons for the january 6th defendants and again, we know a number of those people have been charged with seditious conspiracy and the fact he was attempting to overturn the election. those two things really demonstrate what his intention was. they demonstrate what he would do if given the chance again. >> your thoughts, jason? >> this is why this doesn't make any sense to me and why there aren't constant alarm bells in the administration. when we have to go to people like liz cheney as examples of reasonable people, liz china is perfectly happy suppressing votes and engaging behaviors and policies i find to be damming and difficult for democracy, it shows what a dire circumstance we're in. of course, we know what donald trump is trying to do. of course, we know what he was attempting to do. why do we think the insurrectionists had a plan similar to the power plant the

trump administration was handing around like high school notes preparing to take over the government on january 6th? these things are known now. so the question isn't are we moving towardautocracy, the question isn't is he more obvious but who is going to do something about it? i've seen more obvious plans on "scooy doo." what will the president do and merrick garland do because they will keep talking about planning and dropping bread crumbs but if we don't do anything about it, we'll have ourselves to blame if this democracy falls. >> their bread crumbs are full sandwiches at this point. here is newt gingrich screaming the quiet part, here it is. >> i think when you have a republican congress, this is going to come crashing down and the wolves will find out they're sheep and they're the ones that will face a real risk of jail for the kind of laws they are

breaking. >> i'll follow that with a republican canada date for the michigan state senate that told a crowd people should show up with guns to protect republican election observers here is that candidate. that candidate. so in addition to a state candidate saying the crowd should show up arms to protection election observers, yahoo news did a poll and asked would republicans vote for a candidate who admits that joe biden won the 2020 election? only 57% said they would not vote for a candidate who admitted joe biden is the legitimate president.

masha, in the case we're sort of spired in a very obviously authoritarian sort of freak show, what ought administration, the justice department, what can they do about it at this point? >> that's a great question. you know, i think that there has to -- there have to be efforts to restore the legitimacy of this administration, right? and it has to be an all encompassing project. it has to be a project that includes creating kind of national narrative, which includes both what happened on january 6th, which i don't think administration has done a great job of. it's really stepped away from telling that story. kind of trying to find some kind

of between prosecuting the insurrectionists and letting sort of the process take care of itself and in this very american way just moving on and letting bygones be bygones. what we're watching is a huge part of the country that really sincerely believes the election was stolen and if you consider that for a second, you realize that's showing up with guns to election counting is not an unreasonable thing to do in the frame work. imagine you really believe your democracy was stolen from you. what are you going to do about it is a question they're asking themselves exactly the same way we're asking ourselves, right? so it has to be a huge national effort and that's the one thing that we're not interpreting. >> we're seeing, jason, it seems like administration is counting on the january 6th committee to

talk about that narrative. people are testifying. is it good enough for the january 6th committee to eventually put that narrative forward that the administration isn't doing it. >> i haven't seen a committee fundamentally change anything in american politics over the last ten years outside of what happened with -- excuse me, the gentleman that just got on the supreme court, his name escapes me now. at the end of the day, the committee isn't going to be enough. it's not, it's not. if you don't start seeing people suffer consequences, if you don't start seeing people go to jail, then the committee is not going to be enough. if merrick garland isn't sending people on perp walks, the committee isn't going to be enough. this is the thing, joy. i want everybody to understand sometimes i called scenical or being unfair or putting the blame on the wrong people. we're at a point where the house is burning. the house, democracy is burning. we can argue about who set it on fire. we know the republicans set it on fire.

at this point, administration is sitting there with a fire hose going back and forth who will turn it on. we have to stop the fire at this point and so, you know, to me, i don't think that a committee is going to be enough. i don't think -- there is beyond narratives. this is the fact we have in arizona we talked about several estates. laws that will basically allow the republican legislature to discount any votes they don't like. we're beyond the point of not having drop boxes but legislatures will say it doesn't matter. >> how seriously do you think we are at risk of what happened to ukraine morphing into war with russia, a war between ukraine or russia or something bigger with nato involved? >> right. well, we're not going to know until we know. the president of ukraine is very much trying to spread the calm

to say there is nothing we're seeing now that we haven't been seeing for the last eight years and he has a very strong point, right? he's trying to remind the world that ukraine has in fact been at war with russia or russia has been at war with ukraine for the last eight years. the threat to ukraine is on going. what is important about this, also, is that vladimir putin sees himself as being at war with the united states. ukraine is irrelevant to his view of what is happening and the game that he's playing. that's the incredibly tragic because the fate of ukraine, this country of 44 million people who work so hard for their democracy is being decided by the big players and there is no -- you know, they keep saying no discussing ukraine without ukraine but that's what is happening and ukraine is not going to have a role in deciding

if there is a war. >> it's a tragic situation but a cautionary tale and that's why we stay on the story because we need to understand we could be ukraine. any country could go in that direction. no country is that special or unique. always great to talk with you. jason johnson, appreciate you both. we're launching a segment called democracy defenders. and the amazing stacey abrams is appropriately the very first democracy defender. we'll talk about the latest republican attacks on voting rights and democracy and her current campaign for governor of georgia. plus, changes are coming to spotify. after music legends say they have had enough of joe rogan's covid misinformation. and tonight's absolute worst, who would have ever have thought, who would have thought that implementing absurd expensive maga policies would blow up in their faces? surprise. "the reidout" continues after this. faces surprise "the reidout" continues after this

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okay. let's face it. the trump years have been exhausting. day after day he and republican followers pull at the strings of democracies specking it apart like a sweater waging against muslims, african americans, the lgbtq community, the list goes on and on. the 2020 election was the moment 81 million americans said enough and got rid of trump. the goblin king was finally gone and his brand of toxic politics was repudiated. and then january 6th happened and we all watched in horror as thousands of insurrectionists stormed the capitol, assaulted police officers, defecated in the buildings built by enslaved hands and looking to hang members of congress and the vice president with a noose like a

lynching. little did we know what came next? how do we anticipate the death threats of the people that certify the elections and vindictive voting laws who helped elect president biden and vice president harris and the open embrace of censorship by banning books. it's like we got to the top of the hill pushing a boulder, only for it to come crashing back down. look, it is easy to get crushed under the weight of this. makes you want to look away, tune out and turn off. you can't. not now. not with so much at stake. a few weeks ago, i told you america's exceptionalism is zone by the millions of regular americans that had courage to rewrite destiny. tonight, i am proud to debut a new segment we'll bring to you on a regular basis and it is called democracy defenders. it's going to be an opportunity to hear from the folks making this country more just and equatable.

like taylor coleman that decided to uproot her life and dedicate the next year to traveling throughout texas in a van learning the state's new voting laws and registering people to vote. she's just one example of regular folks fighting for big things. it's the election workers counting your votes and activists registering millions of americans to vote. it's the neighborhood lady making sure you give a ride. these heroes are real life americans but even better, they're -- i mean, there are real life avengers but better, they're real. tonight, we launched democracy defenders and we want you, we want to introduce you to our guest. someone that did the work of voter registration, faced a loss, dusted herself off and recommitted to democracy and helped register 95% of eligible voters in her state. here is stacey abrams in georgia, founder of fair fight and inaugural member of the

defenders. it is always great to talk with you. thank you for being here on the first rollout of this segment, and i just want to let you sort of set the stage here because, you know, i met you back in 2014. we were both gusts on the melissa harris-perry show and i met you in the green room i think is the first time i met you and you were talking about this plan you had and you were like we have 700,000 unregistered voters in the state of georgia. we'll go register them. you have literally gone out and done that and registered that huge group of voters. talk a little bit about the backlash you got almost immediately from the then secretary of state now governor and how you are fighting back against that. >> well, first of all, joy, thank you so much for having me and thank you for initiating this celebration of the people who are necessary to stave off not only autocracy but the collapse of an idea that sustained countries around the

world and that is american democracy. in 2014 when we met, i launched an organization that was designed to register people of color who were the least likely to be registered in the state of georgia and through the efforts of the new georgia project and countless other organizations over the last near decade, we've managed to register or encourage to register 95% of the people of georgia. now, let's be clear there are mechanisms in place that make that possible, but the conversation about voting, the loud conversation about the intentionally of voter suppression started in 2014 and sadly, it was subborned by this voter suppression subborneded by the governor of georgia and my decision to run for governor, both in 2018 and again today is because of something you said. it's about regular people. i am proud to be someone who is fighting for voting rights because i've been a small business owner. i've been a tax attorney. i'm an aunt to six young kids

who need good education and need hope and opportunity that live in the state of georgia and i want them to grow up in a state and in a nation that values who they are. and that can only happen if we have leaders who see them and believe in them and if we have a democracy that allows their families to have a say in their future. >> you know, you started this project the year after the shelby decision in essentially the idea of repressing the vote was thrown open by the roberts court and all of these states rushed in and started doing it. you saw in your secretary of state, now governor kemp starting pulling peep off the rolls as soon as you can get them on. and now he and brad raffensperger who stood up to trump previously in 2020, they are now peddling back further. we've seen counties in georgia go from seven places to vote to one. we've seen people who were in charge of elections thrown out

if they are seen to be more leaning towards democrats. it's pretty aggressive. you're now running against -- this is a rematch between you and brian kemp. the atmosphere now is even worse than it was before in 2018 and you look at the polling whereas the two of you were neck and neck. you came very, very close to defeating him the first time. a lot of people argue if he hadn't taken all those people off the rolls, the polling shows a lot of republicans fed into the big lie and believe in the big lie and the polling shows you behind kemp and behind purdue. what do you do about that? >> well, let's begin with understanding polling is a snapshot and it is not the predictor of what will be. it's a snapshot of where we are and where we are is not a single person has 50% of the people of georgia behind them and i haven't launched a full campaign and we're excited because today is the last day of fundraising for this deadline and we want to

post the best numbers possible so invite people to go to stacey abrams.com to support the campaign. here is why. we know the big lie has activated and energized so many people but we also know that the reality of voter suppression and the reality of inaction has led to a deflation, but deflation can be reversed. we can energize and engage but we've got to do the work and this is january 31st. we have until november 8th. that's a long time to have conversation and let people know how we do what we did in 2018, understand the challenges and navigate them. understand the obstacles and make a way over them because that's what we've always done. that's what democracy unfortunately has demanded of americans for too long, that we have to fight for it and if we're willing to do the work to have access, we will get the results we need. i am proud of the work that we're doing and i see that poll or those polls that were closer

and some further apart but they're all the same thing. they're a story of where we are and not a prediction where we'll be because when we started this in 2017, i was further behind and we came so close and we know that we can get over the finish line and bring georgians with us because i believe that we can serve all of georgia, one georgia making sure everyone has access and opportunity. >> let's talk about the atmosphere you're running for governor of georgia. you had willis investigating donald trump for interfering in the previous election having to increase security because of the threats made over the weekend by the former president and the threats really coming from his base. a lot of it which is armed, a lot of which is violently opposed to anything like democrats ever beating republicans, so you've got that atmosphere. you have the law itself, which is difficult for voters to overcome. how do you deal with that in a state like georgia where you've got both the sort of threats of violence out there and also just

the hoops that voters are going to have to jump through to vote? >> we have three things going for us. one, we've seen a dramatic increase as you pointed out earlier in the number of people registered. the sheer volume of opportunity among voters is an incredible thing because voter suppression does work, but one of the ways we're able to combat it in 2018 defeated in 2020 and 2021 was the sheer volume of people who pushed against those barriers and so it's making sure these new voters, nearly 1.3 million new registered voters since 2018 that we turn those voters out because they are modelled by 17 points to be more likely to be democratic leaning voters and i want to do my part to turn them out. number two, we'll raise the resources to invest in voters and make sure they know what the rules are and how they changed and how to vote and three, we'll tell a story what is to come. we're in pain. this is a nation and a state that's been hurt by pandemic and by injustice but we also have

opportunity and we have to talk about what can be if we do the work together. those three things are how we make a difference and that's why i'm running for governor. >> georgia will be pretty blockbuster. raphael warnock running for reelection and the cooky lady, the qanon lady. don't go anywhere. up next, if trump has his way, this guy will be in charge of certifying the next presidential election in georgia. >> it is a federal takeover of our elections and will install the ability for democrats quite frankly to cheat. >> he is just one of 20 trump backed election deniers vying for secretary of state offices around the country. this is really important stuff. stay right there. is really impf is really impf stay right there. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues.

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we're back with stacey abrams, candidate for governor

of georgia. i want to zoom out a little bit. there is a lot going on nationwide. i know you have an organization about preserving democracy. this first one is this idea of people running to oversee elections. you dealt with one of these as secretary of state in georgia when kemp had the job. that's exploded across the country. what will it mean to have people if they win, there is 21 of those and they win office and they don't believe that joe biden is the president. talk about the role of secretary of state and what kind of shenanigans they can literally pull off and how do we defend it? >> we have in the state of georgia a prime example of why a secretary of state matters in multiple ways and we know that among the contenders, we have someone who has vowed to essentially do the bidding of one person instead of the bidding of the people and when you multiply that across the country you have undermining of elections and that's what we

chastise russia for and a autocraies for. it's when you take the right of the people to be heard, it's when you do it not with a gun but a pen. it's when administrators use it to steal the voices of the people and that should never be tolerated regardless of party. what is so important in georgia is we have an incredibly strong slate of folks running down ballot and joy, you know people tend to vote the top of the ticket and go home. it so important that we go all the way down the ballot, that we not only pick a great secretary of state but pick really strong attorneys general. the a.g. is the person that decides who gets sued. here in georgia every time president biden has done something good for the people, unfortunately, he's not spending the money, the governor sued the president. we need strong attorneys general to say we'll defend the people we serve and we need incredible senators like raphael warnock because we need people in the

federal level who understand what is at stake. this is not an individual issue. this is a national crisis, and i heard your earlier panel talk about this. we need secretaries of state. we need attorneys general. we need governors. we need u.s. senators. we need all of the defenders of democracy to stand for office and to win and to do that, we've got to invest in their campaigns. we've got to knock on their doors. and we've got to do everything in our power to ensure the best people make it across the finish line because that is how we stave off the on slot that we know is coming from the other side. >> we also need federal legislation, which would be nice. there is a failure on the part of democrats to use their very slim majority, 50/50 senate plus one to pass federal voting protections. the substitute that people like manchin and cinema have joined on to with republicans who really don't give a dang about

passing voting right the legislation, they're trying to use the electoral count act as a substitute. if you can explain, you know, electoral count act is nice but is in your view that enough to protect our elections? >> it is insufficient to solve the challenges of voter suppression and election subversion. it solves one piece of the puzzle but you're basically saying that the house is going -- we're going to have a flood that wipes out all the houses but will save the last one. the problem is the flood has gone through and so we have to stave off every other moment of crisis. that's why the voting rights legislation that failed earlier is so important and let remember, it didn't get a vote and that means it's still alive and we can still push for it. sadly, i think it will be stories like what come out of texas about the 95-year-old world war ii veteran being denied the right to vote in texas because he can't provide a number he used 45 years ago.

that is what is going to happen. it's the story that was mother jones about the number of people in georgia who have been denied the right to vote. it's going to take these stories of proof and action of what is happening at the state level, the on slot of insurrectionists now taking up arms in our state houses as legislators who are passing these laws to undermine our democracy. we cannot afford inaction and while the eca may be a solution to a smaller problem, it is not the solution to the massive crisis that is facing our democracy. that's why i'm running, that's why raphael warnock is running. that's why we need the support of every good american regardless of your politics, our patriotism should say we need the democracy defenders at every level of government and need them know. >> democracy defender stacey abrams who is running for governor in the state of georgia. this is a race to watch. we'll have you back on and pay a

lot of attention to georgia this year. thank you very much. cheers. thank you. all right. and still ahead, joe rogan responds to critics who accused him of spreading dangerous vaccine misinformation on spotify as another musical artist removes her music in protest. we'll be right back. artist removes her music in protest. protest. we'll be right back. crafted with clinically studied plant-based ingredients that work naturally with your body. for restorative sleep like never before. ♪ ♪making your way in the world today♪ ♪takes everything you've got♪ ♪ ♪taking a break from all your worries ♪ ♪sure would help a lot ♪ ♪wouldn't you like to get away? ♪ ♪ ♪ sometimes you want to go ♪ ♪where everybody knows your name ♪ ♪ ♪and they're always glad you came ♪

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the joe rogan experience is a joe rogan pr disaster for spotify. rogan's sole distributor. it produces millions of viewers, has dominant skeptics. it took high profile talent boycotts for spotify to address the problem. neal young and joni mitchell have taken a stand by removing the music from the platform and bruce springsteen's east street

band said they'd cut ties. it didn't change anything with spotify taking a stand. daniel eck wrote a letter saying the streaming service would try really, really hard not to spread toxic garbage lies promising content advisory warnings to rogan's show that does nothing. rogan made a statement on instagram addressing the controversy sort of. >> i'm not a doctor or scientist. i'm a person that sits down with people and has conversations with them. do i get things wrong? absolutely. whatever i get something wrong, i try to correct it because i'm interested in telling the truth and interesting in finding out what the truth is. if there is anything i've done that i can do better is have more experts with differing opinions right after i have the controversial ones. i would most certainly be open to doing that. >> joining me now is nbc news ben collins and creative

director for the greo. great to see you. i'm going to start with you. let me play a little clip for the few people not familiar with joe rogan, let me play a little mash up of roguen's broadcast. >> if you're 21 years old say should i get vaccinated? i go no. you have one step away from a king. you have a one step closer. you move one step closer to dictatorship. that's what the [ bleep ] is happening. that is what will happen be vaccine passport. this is gene therapy. this is different. it's tricking your body. the black and white thing is strange because the shades -- >> tan and brown. >> there is such a spectrum of shades of people unless you talk to someone that is 100% african from the darkest place where they're not wearing any clothes all day and they developed all that color to protect themselves from the sun, the term black is weird. >> so i'm going to stipulate that my father is african, i'm

black, terray, you're african american. you're block. those who may be confused. he does this thing of i'm not an expert, i'm just asking questions but there he is definitively saying things. people believe him like he's an expert. your thoughts? >> joe rogan is a really dumb person who thinks that he's sport so he has these scientific conversations that absolutely erode the brain. in terms of covid, here is what he's doing. we're in a crowded theater where there is a fire and he's saying no, guys, there is no fire. everything is fine. it's not appropriate for the country to have somebody of this level of platform saying you don't need to get vaccinated and do these things. he used to get tested all the time and had a stockpile of tests so anybody who entered his little bunker or whatever would have to get tested but i don't know what happened to that. he's become this person who like doesn't seem to believe in it. the whole jordan peterson

conversation about what really is black and is white is just sort of indicative of the stupidity of his conversations. does it really enhance anyone's knowledge to point out that this is not actually the color black? no. white is not the color white. that doesn't enhance anybody's understanding of the situation. if you go down the three-hour rabbit hole of joe rogan, you get somebody just saying dumb things over and over and over. but he thinks he's so smart. >> but i mean, the thing is it's very lucrative, right? ben, people going down this road is actually really popular. he's saying things that people wish they could say out loud and getting paid a lot of money for it. let me play more of his statement. here is what he said on sunday. take a listen to this. >> i'm not trying to promote misinformation. i'm not trying to be controversial. these podcasts are very strange because they're just conversations and often times i

have no idea what i'll talk about until i sit down and talk to people and that's why some of my ideas are not that prepared or flushed out because i'm literally having them in realtime. >> he's saying i'm accidently saying things and opening my mouth and things are falling ac. yes, he is trying to say everything that he is saying. because misinformation is deliberate. it's not like, i accidentally opened my mouth and said don't get vaccinated. >> i will say, it isn't three hours of the -- it's not three straight hours of him saying stuff. that is how he reels you in. that is how all of these things work is that he will talk to you about regular things about normal stuff for ten minutes -- i do think you have to go back to the start. he was on youtube. he was a youtuber. and for some reason, for several years, three or four years, most videos that came from the alt-right, the recommendations were -- it is still unclear if he had

anything to do with us. i actually don't think he did. but -- that audience is a lot more interested in what alex jones has to say than what it doctor has to say. and once you start serving that audience exclusively, you sort of cut yourself off from traditional -- about how a pandemic works, necessarily. spotify, i'm sure, gave him a call this weekend and was like, look, you have to get back to reality on some of the stuff. it is hurting our bottom line. maybe he can step himself back towards having real conversations. that come closer to real world conversations and not the youtube algorithm conversations that he has driven himself towards. >> i doubt it because it would be less lucrative and would probably get less listeners. >> you do a very popular podcast. you are in this world. the difference here is that spotify is not like youtube or like twitter. they are his publisher. like, they actually --

they're in a different relationship with him then youtube is. youtube just has lots of people on the platform. they are literally his publisher. talk a little bit about that world and how it works. >> it's interesting because spotify's parts -- disseminating musicians, right? but the music industry has a stranglehold over their earnings where they get a very tiny amount of the money that is earned from streaming and the contracts with the music industry are renewed constantly. so, they can never actually make that much of a profit off of music. and then one day, they discover, something is going on over here, podcasts. that is making a lot of money. and we could build a profit off of podcasts. and they went really deep into the podcasting world, purchasing podcast companies and wanting to become the home for podcasts. whenever you think of podcasts, you go over there. you want ibrahim kennedy, you go over there. you want joe rogan, you go over there. the joni mitchell's and the neil young's can only have so

much of an impact because they are a teeny part of what's spotify is actually more earning money from. joe rogan is actually bringing a lot of people in the door. so, unless you say somebody like a taylor swift is going to say, i am deplatforming my music from spotify. they probably are not really going to listen to those of us -- joe rogan definitely does not prepare for his shows. that is clear. like, i can tell when i listen to you that you are prepared for the interview. he is clearly not prepared. i know, i can tell, he just goes in there and just says whatever comes to mind. he is just talking. that is what he does. >> and that is why people like it. and that is why he is so dangerous and really powerful and -- ben collins, -- thank you very much. appreciate you both. don't go anywhere. -- up next because who knew? political theater tickets could be so expensive. stay with us. be so expensive.

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gop governors and his autocratic leaders. glenn youngkin created a kremlin style -- to report anything divisive taught in schools. basically meaning books by black, jewish, lgbtq people. -- how the tip line works? what steps are taken, what reports were received and whether the administration tried to contact those mentioned and those complaints. then there's texas governor greg abbott who spectacularly bungled of a performance art piece at the mexican border. his operation lone star, because of course that's what it's called, launched in march and sent local police and national guardsmen to the southern border to arrest migrants on state path trespassing charges. it's face numerous legal issues ruling that it's unconstitutional since the

treads on federal immigration policy, not to mention the ethical issue. with 50 state democrats asking the doj to look into the operation, noting that it's a mockery of the due process rights, foundational to our nations judicial process. but to add on to all of that the guardsmen abbott sent to the border had been treated terribly. not only are they bored, because they do not actually have the aforementioned federal attorney dog -- authority -- but their paychecks were delayed and some had been at the border longer than they were deployed overseas. as abbott has spent more on the border, the guardsmen face budget cuts with their tuition assistance cut in half last year. big tragically there's been suicides among guardsman, with four dying in the past few months. it's bad enough that operational star has led to inhumane treatments for immigrants and that the state has spent a whopping three billion dollars on immigration enforcement in 2021, money that could've gone to actually helping lead -- the worse is the cavalier way

that the state of texas is treating the people they forced to implement their failed mission. so much for supporting the troops. that's why texas governor greg abbott egg and operational star are the absolute worst. that's tonight's all in. now read out -- now all in with chris hayes starts now. craig >> tonight on all in! g > put me in jail? they want to put me in jail. >> we now live in a world where the foreign president has admitted he tried to stage a coup. >> i think it tells us that he would do it all again if you were given the chance. >> tonight, the fallout from the ex president's stunning admission and george conway on when it means for the prosecutors investigating trump. and the brazen takeover of an election board and georgia where republicans are canceling key voting dates, plus, -- >> absolutely. i get things wrong, but i try to correct them. >> how the pressure on spotify has got response from the biggest stars and has a turn vaccine resistance into

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