defies labels of traditional politicians. thank you for tuning in this morning. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪♪ welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, february 3rd. quite a shot of the capitol. >> wow. >> which seems to be in the news every day, january 6th. in the news every day. it just keeps sort of piling out. more news every day, willie. january 6th committee, who we thought were starting about as slowly as i did -- i was going to say high school, but high school, college and law school. they've really taken off. every day more documents, more information that is more damning for the former president. >> yeah, it is interesting. we've talked, you know, many months ago we thought this is

moving rather slowly. if you talked behind the scenes to people around the committee they say, look, we're getting what we need. for every high-profile steve bannon who doesn't want to show up, for every mark meadows who want to make a point to donald trump and not show up to testify, we have reams, thousands and thousands of documents, from meadows in some cases, print documents and e-mails but also from other people around the president, press seconds, advisers. mike pence's team is cooperating by and large. this committee will have what it needs to tell the story of january 6th. >> and the oath keepers, the head of the oath keeper's lawyer said a couple of days he was that he was going to plead the fifth and say nothing. ended up he was talking to them for six hours. that's the things about them, once you get them talking you can't stop them, especially yellies with an ipad. >> with the committee there's revelations every day. they seem to be focusing in as far as we can tell on a

potential conspiracy theory. they're going at it in all different ways. but i think that they have been energized and i think the fact more and more people are coming to talk is bringing others in, too, because, you know, you have somebody in the oval office telling his or her side of the story. the other person needs to go in and speak up for him or herself. this is moving fairly quickly. they're talking about hearings in the spring, a report sometime in the fall before the midterms. >> yeah. >> so it is moving. >> you know, david, again as willie said for every steve bannon there are ten people that worked in the trump white house, that regardless of what our viewers may think about donald trump or people that worked in trump's white house, they were there thinking they were doing the nation's bidding and they were doing it better than the person who would follow them. well, there are a lot of those people who woke up on january 6th, saw what happened, were

horrified, and do -- and are patriots and don't want to see these people getting away with it. we're actually starting to hear from some of trump's most loyal republican followers, talking about bringing justice to those who beat up cops on january 6th. we weren't hearing that two weeks ago. >> it is a relentless process. we've needed it, inspector -- if people remember le misserable if people remember that. they're putting the evidence together, as you say, starting with the lower down people, thought they were loyal to trump who decided they have responsibility to share this information. you know, this is not a circus.

it is not on television. you know, we don't see it every day on cable news, but day by day they get more stuff. >> yeah. >> that's where this needs to go. >> looks like, willie, more than six more weeks of winter for donald trump and those who really were involved in a conspiracy on january 6th. >> yeah, a lot of people seeing their shadows, aren't they, right now? let's talk about new developments. new memos obtained by "the new york times" appear to show the origin of the trump campaign's plan to create fake slate of electors to help overturn the election. according to "the times", one memo issued 15 days after election day show how the campaign sought to buy itself more time to overturn the results. at the heart of the strategy, "the times" reports, was the idea their real deadline was not december 14th when official electors would be chosen, but january 6th when congress would meet to certify the results. the memos, according to "the

times", initially were meant to address trump's challenge in wisconsin, but ultimately became part of a broader strategy to pressure vice president mike pence to block the certification of joend's win. for some context to this reporting, one elections expert, david becker, tweeted this. more to note that the same day the trump campaign sent a memo to wisconsin seeking to overturn the will of wisconsin voters november 18th, was the deadline for trump to demand a statewide recount which he declined to do. it was two weeks before wisconsin's deadline to certify the election. what this demonstrates is that trump was trying to overturn results that weren't certified yet and which he didn't think were worthy of statewide recount. joe, this is two weeks after the election, donald trump just explicitly according to the memos and his campaign, trying to put different people in place who would change the results of the vote. >> i mean it couldn't be any more clear of donald trump's

intent here. it is such a scam, and wisconsin reveals him for the scam artist that he is. just like he was talking about rigged elections in the summer of 2020 when he knew he was going to lose the election, before -- i mean six months before the election or five months before the election even took place. here, jonathan lemire, donald trump is seeking an alternate set of electors despite the fact he didn't challenge the voting for a recount and it was even before those recounts were certified. so he didn't know what the results were going to be. he didn't care what the results were going to be. he knew that he lost on election day, so the only thing he cared about -- or he lost from the votes cast on election day and absentee ballots, and so he was -- no matter what, he was just going to claim it was rigid and put up necessary scam set of electors. >> yeah, it was a months-long process to sow seeds of doubt about the integrity of the election.

all summer in 20 we heard him rail against mail-in battle, to that point a lot of republicans and older voters opted to use those battle. against the advice of his aides he said mail-in battle will be a mean to fix the election, we can't trust them, because he knew that democrats were encouraging their voters to do so because of the pandemic, to not stand in line. there was that. we have this here. he didn't bother with a recount. they simply wanted to install new sets of electors. those electors weren't going to suddenly hand him the white house but they were going to add more confusion, they were going to perhaps delay the process in the middle of december when the electoral college was to meet because they wanted on january 6th for them to present this idea, hey, there's confusion here. the seven battleground states that all, incidentally, went for joe biden, we can't trust their results so let's toss them out. that was the plan outlined by john eastman in those memos. we can't trust those seven states. mike pence, presiding over the ceremony, tosses them on.

if you go with the other 43 states, hey, donald trump wins. he has more. he doesn't have 270 but he would have more than joe biden at that point. that was the plan, as far-fetched as it may seem. that was what they were trying to do as the coup. there was no let mat means to contest the elections. it was all about him trying to maintain power. >> again, what were they doing? look at the states where he was claiming there were scam results. wisconsin, had a republican legislature. pennsylvania had a republican legislature. michigan had a republican legislature. we said on this show months ahead of time, counted election day, count all of the votes election day, because there was a proposal to do it like florida does or else this is exactly what is going to happen and it happened. florida, another swing state, had a republican legislature. georgia had a republican legislature. i mean he -- and a republican secretary of state and republican governor. again, this is donald trump --

this all shows intent, that it was just a scam from the very beginning. >> what is interesting, also that the -- there was -- i guess there was a method to their madness, but what is so striking the last couple of -- the last week or so is how much donald trump has been out there himself, you know, talking about this, saying, you know, i asked -- i wanted mike pence to overturn the election. what we're seeing is he's completely now out in the open about it. what we're seeing is from his own words and from this reporting and from the revelations of the committee how much he was completely, centrally involved. it was run by him. you know, there was the thought that these -- sidney powell and giuliani, donald trump was directing this. we've forgotten that, that he was the president of the united states and he was trying to overturn an american election. we've gotten so used to donald trump, it is kpreefrd when you

you -- extraordinary when you look and see what they were trying to do systematically. >> and it is all being revealed right now, willie. >> it is. president trump suggested pardons for january 6th rioters at the rally last week. trump considered blanket pardons for those involved in the riot in the final days of his presidency. he made calls to inquire about doing just that. according to one source he asked aides if he should pardon, quote, everybody that had a trump sign or everybody that walked into the capitol. meanwhile, "the washington post" points out that it will make it less likely for those awaiting trial. for them to get a sentence and get it over may seem less appealing than sitting quiet and

crossing fingers. katty kay, as elisabeth said, you have donald trump confessing to all of the crimes at the rally the other night, and we have reams of evidence to show he was another the center of the conspiracy to overturn a presidential election. >> what we've learned is that the committee is looking closer and closer at donald trump and his involvement. the idea he wanted to have these people pardoned before he left office because he didn't want them to testify or be deposed i think is critical. what were they going to say that he was so worried about? what would they have said under oath that might have implicated the former president? i think that ties into, you know, the meeting with powell, sidney powell and flynn where they start drawing up the executive orders, where they try three different departments, he tried three different departments at the u.s. federal department to see if he can seize the voting machines. piece by piece we are getting a

picture that increasingly links donald trump to the actions on january 6th. >> yeah, and certainly here there's a truism for those of us who have covered donald trump for a long time. there's very rarely a thought he has in private or says to aides in the office that he doesn't eventually blurt out in front of a huge crowd at a rally, and that's what we've had here. where he mused about, he mused about, joe, the idea of a pardon while in office and of course just started talking about it in front of a huge crowd in front of texas today. after this report came out last night one aide texted me it is an effort to keep people quiet but an effort of trump using the idea of rewarding his supporters because they were fighting for him. that is what was important to him, they were fighting for him on television, which is the animating principle when he thinks about people loyal to him. >> here's the thing. donald trump knew he lost the election from the very beginning, but he also knew if he accepted defeat and did

things the traditional way the republican party would move on. the only thing he had over any other candidates wasn't wisdom or knowledge, was strength. he sold strength. he knew if he was a loser the republican party would go away from him. so he knew that by talking about a rigged election he could keep everybody on his side against the nancy pelosis and the aocs and whoever the other left-wing boogeyman was. this narrative is slipping away as it becomes more and more obvious he lost the election to a lot of his supporters. he's getting more hyperbolic. he is getting more extreme. he is saying more bizarre things because he has to keep republicans on his side, because once they're gone they're writing chengs to ron desantis for president and volunteering for ron desantis for president and the parade is over. you look at a poll two days ago,

i think it was an "a.p." poll and it is telling as a former republican, do you identify yourself as a supporter of trump or supporter of republicans. 55% identified as a supporter of donald trump and 35% as a republican. you could tell because it was a pro-russia, anti-nato, pro-spending party. now it is reversed. 55% now identify themselves as a republican and next 35% as supporters of donald trump. he sees the support starting to move away and going to ron desantis and maybe a few others and he's panicking. that's why we had the extreme statements this weekend. >> i think he is nervous. he sees this movement of voters. i wouldn't say he's toxic, but he's become problematic for

republicans. you can see that on capitol hill, in comments that we all hear from people off the record. my worry, joe, is that even as the house committee is pursuing all of the details, republicans are going to school on the mistakes that they made that prevented them from stealing the election. they are determined next time around to be even more ruthless and to use even more aggressive tactics. they're trying to get the right people in place at the state level. while we should take comfort from this movement away from trump among some republicans, down there in the grassroots there are movements to lock in the power of this extreme part of the republican party. it will be tough for national republicans to pry that loose. >> yeah, we'll see what happens.

david, so joe biden announced 3,000 troops going to eastern europe. there are a lot of things to read out of this. one is sort of this slow-motion move toward a bipartisan consensus. at the beginning a lot of people that work for joe biden inside the white house seemed to react initially like barack obama did in 2014. it was very slow. joe biden said the quiet part out loud, no, we're not going to do anything. if they go in -- and then he said it might -- and then the press conference where he slipped and mistakenly talked about a minor incursion or something. >> not churchillian. but i think at that point they needed to have a robust response.

3,000 troops to europe. this is not something that vladimir putin or any of the military want to see. they don't want to see f-35s on their borders. this has really turned out to be the opposite of what vladimir putin was hoping for. my god, you look at all of the troops that are now moving to eastern europe. they have to know if they go in they're going to see even more. >> you know, joe, i think putin must have calculated that biden was the person in some ways that his biography suggests. he is a career politician, he's careless, he talks too much, he's good old joe biden and putin thought he could roll him. biden has been resolute in the last weeks. he started by saying the right thing, we need to do this together with nato allies.

every day somebody was calling the european capital, getting people on board. as the russians threatened and moved toward escalation, biden has done the same thing. >> did you sense putin was trying to find an exit ramp a couple of days ago in his press conference. >> i think putin is confounded by biden matching him. i don't think this is where putin saw this ending up. now putin is painting himself as a victim. the guy who put 100,000 troops on the borders, sending 35,000 troops to belarus. now he's saying these bullies in the west are trying to force a war and i didn't want a war. then we get into a diplomatic round. i think there's a lot of things to criticize biden for, but this one my sense is that he handled pretty well. >> david, let me ask you an

extraordinarily unpopular question with an extraordinarily unpopular -- >> uh-oh. >> it is just questions we don't ask in america for the most part. here is a country that lost 27 million people in world war ii. 27 million people slaughtered in world war ii because of an invasion. they lost their empire in 1991 and you have people talking about expanding nato into ukraine, a region that, yes, most russians still consider to be a part of sort of this greater soviet state. you look at ukraine and it is like a knife that cuts straight into the heart of russia. i always think about when we're lecturing israel, when we have people that want to win nobel prizes for peace and are

lecturing israel to do things that will hurt their security because they want nobel peace prizes, i wonder if we would do that if people lined up along the mexico or canadian border. i asked the question i think putin has asked and ots have asked, what if russia signed a security alliance with mexico, how many days do you think we would put up with that. >> well, they have a security alliance with cuba, which is on our doorstep. >> how did that turn out for everybody? >> it didn't turn out well at all. but i think your basic point that we need in this crisis -- >> we just need to see what they're looking at. >> we need to understand how our adversary looks at the world and see through their eyes to the extent we can. every country deserves to have secure borders. >> right. >> but -- >> that's just -- >> russia has secure borders. nobody has invaded russia. >> nobody has invaded russian. >> russia's making grabs from

georgia, from ukraine, from crimea. nobody has threatened russia's borders. for 30 years ukraine has been an independent country with now almost two generations of independent people. i understand the point of how russia is feeling, but if we put ourselves into the mindset of that is how russia is thinking, you make concessions to russia over this crisis that may encourage him to do it again. >> but the point is that they've invaded anybody over the last two generations. the point is they are defined by losing 27 million people during world war ii just like, just like jews are defined right now by losing 6 million jews during the same conflict. it can't help if you lose 27 million people to shape your thinking and say never again. i'm not saying we should give concessions to russia. i'm just saying if we want to get -- help him get out of the

corner so we don't have a european war -- >> what's the -- >> -- we need to ask ourselves what are they thinking, how can we help them out of the corner. >> putin laid this out. he wrote it clearly in a speech he wrote last year where he talked about ukraine is part of russia and i feel, you know, i feel he clearly felt the russian-ification of that part of the world. >> any thoughts? >> i think the proposals revealed from spain to russia speak to the russian anxiety about security. they say, we will never station u.s. troops permanently in ukraine. it is not promising ukraine will never be a nato member, you can't promise that. it is speaking to the concern. one thing, there are polls in russia that are pretty reliable show that the younger you are,

the less motivated you are by the weight of the history, the loss of the 27 million. >> of course. >> the younger russians, you ask them, should we stand and fight with russian-speaking ukrainians they basically say no. it doesn't speak to them. i think that's one of putin's fears, is that as ukraine has gone west, wants to be ukrainian so too will younger russians. >> just like i saw the depression through my grandmother's eyes, i saw it through my mom's eyes, i was connected. my kids have no idea. >> biden talked about this in his press conference. it was dissing putin but he said, you know, look at putin, he's lost the empire. you know, he has burning tundra. you know, he was looking at poor russia, you know, they're not what they used to be and he is feeling threatened. he was sort of playing into this idea of this, you know, dictator in retreat, but it was -- you know, biden does understand to

some degree what is going on in putin's head. i think we were talking about with the escalation, it seems to be working, but there is a fear that what the u.s. is doing is actually, you know, egging on putin in a way. it is a debate. are we deterring him or are we spurring him on because he feels he has to stand up to the united states? i mean the united states has never done this kind of -- released this kind of intelligence publicly. >> right. >> and worked with the british on releasing intelligence indicating to the public what putin's next move is going to be but it certainly has, i think, confused the russians. >> one things our leaders need to stop doing rhetorically is stop putting russia down, saying that he lost his empire and barack obama saying, what, that they're a -- >> regional power. >> regional power. you know what? that doesn't help things. it really doesn't. if they want respect, i would much rather show -- >> got the world's attention. >> i would much rather show

respect than be going through this. i know, but if you say, he lost his little empire, that's not helpful. >> if you read him back in the summer, putin says there's an anti-russian project and we are every day more threatened and he believes that. we say it is nuts but he believes that. he now has the world's attention. it may if this is played right and played to his self-respect, that there is a pathway out. a week ago it didn't look like there was, but as he plays the victim more you begin to see how it might work. >> it wouldn't cost us anymore. it was said they're a gas station masquerading with a country. it wouldn't hurt us to say they're a great country with a history, they helped us with world war ii. we couldn't have gotten to june

1942 without all of the sacrifices and let's work together as a nation. rhetorically we can help him get out of the corner. the insults -- you know what? when you call the leader of another world a killer, you know, we're not calling xi a killer, are we? has anybody heard joe biden or any president call xi a killer? >> no. >> no, we haven't. i'm just saying, you know, we need to figure out how to get to an off ramp here. right now we don't seem to be doing a good job of it. >> and speaking of rhetoric, it has been interesting to watch president zelensky of ukraine to ask the united states and the west to turn down the rhetoric on what they keep saying is an imminent war on the border. still ahead on "morning joe" we will be joined by former ambassador to ukraine, amendment bill taylor. we also will speak to retired

lieutenant concern alexander vindman about that story wells shis new lawsuit against donald trump jr and other allies of the former president. colonel vindman will be our guest. plus, president biden head to new york city in the wake of recent police shootings. how he and mayor adams intend to tackle gun violence across the country. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. "morning jo" we'll be right back. with smashed avocado, oven-roasted turkey, and baja chipotle sauce. it's three great things together. wait! who else is known for nailing threes? hmm. can't think of anyone! subway keeps refreshing and re... this is a warrior. midnight to morning, she's in command. all-day comfort. all-night shift. head nurse. heart on her sleeve. so, when leaks show up, our protection helps keep them dry. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you.™

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welcome back to "morning joe." a rainy -- what do we have here? thursday morning. 6:31 in the morning. i can't believe i'm about to tell you this story it is so strange. on ""the masked singer"," two judges watched off in protest during the taping of a recent

episode after it was revealed that rudy giuliani was a contestant. the premise of the show was celebrities perform in a full costume and a mask covering their entire head. the judges try to guess who the person is based on the performance. according to the deadline, judges ken jong and robin thicke walked off the set as soon as giuliani was unmasked. judges jenny mccarthy and nicole remained on stage and bantered with giuliani. the episode is slated to air next month. takes report from "deadline." nobody has confirmed it but somebody inside the room said rudy giuliani, the rudy giuliani, the guy who helped donald trump try to overturn the presidential election, was on a reality show in a big animal costume singing, i guess. >> this is like -- i mean, my god, it is like having roy cohn on "this is your life" in the mccarthy era. y'all get the reference.

that's insanity. or al capone before he got his parking tickets. >> a new line of work. this is great. >> we haven't heard from him in a while. i wondered what he was doing. now we know. >> my god. jonathan lemire, you are, of course, "the masked singer" correspondent for "morning joe." what was going through their mind? >> yeah, i wear many hats here, apparently an animal head costume as well. it is unclear what this was, but certainly there are certain people perhaps who shouldn't be rehabilitated and those being at the leading edge of a plot to overthrow the government of the united states might be one of those in in this case rudy giuliani was on and we will note that he has experienced a costume before. we have seen the clip when he was mayor of new york city where he dressed up in drag for a skit for a new york city reporter's function and posed alongside donald trump. so maybe that was the experience that the producers of "the

masked singer" drew upon for the casting call. unclear though. >> that is bizarre. >> it is not cute either. >> yeah. >> it is not cute to have the guy who helped attempt overturn a presidential election, and apparently two of the judges of the four walked out when they saw it was rudy giuliani. we will see when the show airs. a week before the super bowl the biggest story in the nfl is not about that game. the latest on lawsuit from brian flores and new allegations of teams paying coaches to tank games. coming up later, is it time to stop masking in schools? what the former fda commissioner is saying about that. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back qulipta™ can help prevent migraine attacks... it can't prevent stress. qulipta™ can help prevent migraine attacks...

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flores learned that the new york giants head coaching job had gone to someone else three

days before he was scheduled to interview for the position. so he is saying they wasted his time just to check a pretend box about how they pretend care about diversity. though i imagine it did take the pressure off the job interview. where do i see myself in five years? i don't know, suing you. >> former miami dolphins head coach brian flores says his lawsuit against the nfl and three of its teams over alleged racist hiring practices will continue even if he becomes a head coach again and he may well. he has interviewed for coaching vak answers on the houston texans and new orleans saints. while he is prepared to answer a potential call this off-season and take a job he said the suit will go on because he says the league needs to change. here is flores talking about it last night on "all in" with chris hayes. >> at the end of the day this isn't about me. this is about black and minority

coaches, black and minority leaders who don't get an opportunity to showcase their skills, their leadership, their acumen, their intelligence, their abilities in whatever field it is. in my case, you know, and in the nfl's case as coaches and leaders in this league. we need to change the hearts and minds of the people who make those decisions. >> flores also discussed the messages he received. he said he got them from patriots' head coach who mistakenly congratulated flores on being chosen to be the giants new coach ahead of his interview. >> it confirmed what we thought was happening behind closed doors and it confirmed that for me. it is not just in football. it is in a lot of different

industries. >> sure. >> meanwhile, miami dolphins' owner stephen ross has responded to allegations in the lawsuit that he offered flores $100,000 per loss in order to tank the team's 2019 season and get a better draft pick. ross writing in part, i take great personal exception to these malicious attacks. the truth must be known. his allegations are false, malicious and defamatory. former cleveland browns' head coach hue jackson is making accusations of a schimpf lar practice in cleveland including to espn yesterday the team's four-year plan that he says incentivized losing and led to his 1 and 31 record during the 2016 and 2017 seasons. jackson said he would be willing to join flores's lawsuit. a spokesman for the browns called it completely fabricated. >> for those who don't know the

rooney rule, it has been 20 years that rule has been in place. there's one black coach in pittsburgh who has been there a long time, an institution there. but fascinating to see that flores, by the way, is a finalist for the houston texan's job. he is in the running for that job. he said if he gets that job, he becomes the head coach in new orleans or anywhere else he will continue with this lawsuit because the league needs to be exposed for the way it hires and does not hire coaches. >> first of all, jackson saying they paid him to lose games in cleveland, he goes 1 and 31, he's ruthlessly efficient. i want him working on my team. you want me to loose? sure, come on. as my grandma would say, has gracious plenty when it comes to losing. he should be hired, willie. he won eight out of nine games at miami. i can't say that enough. when you are hearing that the miami dolphins are winning eight out of nine games in a row at

any part of the season, it is time to start asking if this guy is going to replace nick sabean when he leaves alabama. those are bear bryant numbers in miami. it is such a bad, bad franchise and they've been bad for so long. mark, let's talk about some numbers here. >> i'm not rudy. >> one, 8 of 9, $100,000. i think actually if he has texts, if he has any documentary evidence of all of this, the most damning thing that will shake up the nfl is if he can prove the miami dolphins was

bribing him to tank games, which as david was saying it is illegally rigging bets. >> the nfl is very vulnerable on both of these issues, one is race. >> how can you just have one black coach. >> especially when the players are 60%, 70% african american. >> of course. >> the owners, one nonwhite owner which is shahid kahn of the jacksonville jaguars. the nfl has not gotten better, it has gotten worse. it is an ongoing embarrassment. this is a scary lawsuit for them because there will be all kinds of exposure whether it is legal exposure or information that comes out that could be embarrassing to the owners. the other part from a competitive standpoint, to have allegations of two owners paying two coaches to lose games is -- you know, when you are marketing

multi-billion dollar tv deals, season tickets in these cities and your fans are hearing, oh, by the way, the owner is paying the coach for your team to lose is devastating for the league. the league, if there's one thing that they're paranoid about, it is competitive integrity issues like that, when there's a sense that the competition they're selling to their fans is not on the up and up. >> can i ask a question? >> sure. >> how do you willfully lose a game? aren't your players in on this? >> there are ways to do it without going into the locker room and saying, try to lose this thing. >> how do you do? >> you don't play certain players, you keep them out. >> you look at their defense. you look at defensive linemen, instead of working to get around their defensive alignment you play to your offensive opponent's strength. >> doesn't it send off alarms?

>> you would think. there's a tradition, but i mean you could say if the cleveland browns are one and ten and they're obviously not going to make the playoffs, you could see they're keeping some of their best players on the bench to keep them healthy or to -- >> get high draft pick the next year. >> the high draft pick is the piece no one actually talks about tanking but that's apparently what stephen ross and jimmy haslund the owner of the browns were trying to get. >> you must have text, something, even if it was a verbal thing you would think -- i mean it is so shocking to be told by your owner you've got the lose the game, i imagine there's more. >> hue jackson, the coach of the browns, says that he has receipts, and flores says he has receipts. they haven't come out yet. but if and when they do it is a big problem. >> jackson's receipt should be stamped paid in full, one in 31. >> it wasn't clear if he took the money. >> oh, he took the money. look at the record.

1 and 31. david ignatius, you said something that's important and let me go all over the place here because you are talking about gambling and that it is starting to permeate everything. it is kind of like -- i will be an old man here. it is kind of like marijuana. everybody is celebrating marijuana is legalized in this state and that state and this state and that state. i'm not celebrating that because suddenly it becomes the norm. i can tell you, i have been around people who have smoked pot for 50 years in advance. i have never seen anything good about it. i know everybody does it. i know i'm sounding old here. but i'm just saying for kids and for -- you know, i have been around. i have been everywhere, man. i've been everywhere. so gambling is much looking that. it is permeating our entire culture. it is not good. i can't watch a financial match in england without one of the teams being sponsored by a gambling syndicate. >> yep. >> so one thing to note --

>> they're all sponsored by gaming. really, we banned pete rose for betting on baseball games? i mean it is just really bad. >> if you -- we were talking earlier. if you tune in to sports radio now, you just hear constant discussion of gambling, what's the spread, did you beat the spread. each of the people on sports radio is talking about his book, what he's betting today, what he made this weekend. it is an environment in which figuring games just seems an almost inevitable problem. >> oh, yeah. >> there are billions, tens of billions of dollars streaming into this. states are going nuts, competing about how they can get a slice of tax revenue. i don't know whether it is something like marijuana but it is something that people have allowed to happen. it is popular. people love sports betting, but the effects on this sports betting -- in the end it will have to be the owners who say they're nerves about it.

>> they are nervous. it is almost quaint to think a owner would pay for a higher draft pick. what about the person in vegas who says to the next brian flores or jackson, forget this game, if you lose this we'll give you a million dollars. we're not talking about the sort of unethical practices here, we are talking about football, something honorable. but the can of worms it could open -- >> just remember on the waterfront stiger saying to marlon brandon, it is not your night. you're sitting this one out. >> but there is gambling, you can bet on pretty much, but is there fixing? >> no, i don't think there have been -- >> i don't think there have been. >> -- scandals about it but i have seen a lot of guys miss three-foot goals.

>> people who are very well paid don't suddenly score. >> in south asia there's been a major scandal. cricketers and others have been banned from other sports because it became overwhelming. >> if it isn't there, it will happen. i remember growing up it happening here or there. tulane basketball getting banned for a year for fixing basketball games. i remember david letterman's monologue that night. it is a real shame, they were going to win 17 games next year. but, you know, that's one example of it. but i just fear with all of this money sloshing around and, like you said, you know, these magnates, casino magnates, they could make more money on gambling than the athletes are

making on professional sports. suddenly the bribes are going everywhere and somebody decides they will take it. >> you run that risk. there's no question. it seems quaint there was a day they wouldn't put a team in las vegas because they were worried about proximity to gamble. now the raiders are in las vegas and now you can gamble on any game anywhere in any state you want to basically, right on your phone. it is interesting to note, pete rose in the dowd report said they didn't have any evidence he gambled for his team to lose. he never bet against the cincinnati red. the accusation here is that an owner paid a coach to lose games which would be explosive. again, needs more documentary proof to show what the owner says is not true. let's bring in charles coleman to talk about brian flores's lawsuit. good to have you back. what more have we learned since listening to coach flores and to huge jackson, the former quote

of the browns who went 1 and 31 those two seasons say he might join the lawsuit as well. what more did you learn about the suit and its chances to go forward and be proven? >> well, willie, this is bad news for the nfl in as much as what we talked about was class certification. class certification is the process in a class action suit like flores has brought where basically a judge will allow a class to go forward where the liability element is much easier for the plaintiff to prove in terms of establishing what happened to them and establishing guilt. with hue jackson coming forward with these very explosive allegations against the cleveland browns and talking about his experiences there, that only pushes them fofrd. this information is discoverable. which means both parties will likely use it to support their assertions and their defenses as well. so there's going to be more of this that comes out, which is not good for the league. even if this is never something that gets to the trial, the reputational damage the league is taking right now in the court

of public opinion is something on the heels of everything that they've already dealt with, all the way going back to 2016 with colin kaepernick and the way forward, it is not something the league can dole with going forward. i expect it will be dealt with relatively quickly. >> the story line is that they are being paid to lose and african american coaches become the face of loosing franchises, making it harder for them to get future jobs down the road. we already know the nfl has a problem with hiring african american coaches. he said he was given a champ interview and wasn't involved in the process. the giants only named their coach a few days ago. the nfl has already put out a statement saying it is all without merit? how possibly could they say it? there's been no time for investigation. >> i would agree with you, jonathan. what we're looking at in terms

of the timing around the investigation and the nfl statement certainly seems to support the notion what blien flores has alleged around systemic racism within the nfl and its ranks is viable, that this is an actual claim that has teeth to it, that has meat to it. when you think about the overall context of what flores is alleging, what he is basically saying is that systemically the nfl as a league has been complicit in the exclusion of talented and qualified leadership from black and other minority candidates in the coaching ranks. even as different franchises have made their decisions, the nfl has turned a blind eye, knowing that this is a problem. i want everyone to consider something. in the conversation about this case, funny enough, racism is not really the headline. why? because very few people are surprised. we are talking about something that is wrong within the nfl's culture, something that has been on open display for many people to see for a very long time.

it has been the competitive nature and how the competitive nature of the league has been threatened that has made this the story. this has been out in the open for a very long time, and brian flores has basically ripped the lid off and put it in front of us for all of us to really see and now the league to have to deal with. >> you know, joe, as we wrap up this segment, one last point. we should say again the rooney rule was put in place in 2003 and today we have one black head coach in the nfl. one last point on tanking though. tanking works, i hate to tell you. there was a game in late 2019, the bengals were playing the dolphins. they called it tank bowl. the loser of that game was assumed to draft a heisman trophy winner named joe burrow. the cincinnati bengals lost that game. they got joe burrow in the draft and two years later they're in the super bowl which we play in ten days. the difference here is the owner explicitly said, here is a bunch

of money to lose the games. but whether they say it or not, teams that look like dead end season will drive the truck into the ditch so perhaps they can get joe burrow in the draft. >> of course, we've always made fun of times like the detroit lions who will go 1 and 13, and then win two out of their three last games. so this has -- this has been a big part of nfl culture. i want to get to one more thing here. what's the percentage of black players in the nfl? >> it ranges about 65% to 70%. >> so two out of three. >> yeah. >> i will tell you like the boston red sox, one of the reasons why alex cora came back with the boston red sox and you would hear sports writers talk about it, you would hear other people, because there were hispanic players. some of them didn't speak a lot of english, but people like raphie devers who they said alex cora will be able to sit down,

talk to him, they can relate culturally, he can relate to other players on the team culturally. you hear it a lot in baseball. oh, he just takes him to the side, more than a guy from, you know, galveston sitting down with a kid that, you know, came out of the d.r. or puerto rico. they talk about that in baseball all the time. >> yeah. >> you've got two out of three players in the nfl who are black and one black coach? that's not only -- not only does that speak terribly about the nfl who loves putting anti-racism in their end zones, but also you lose a competitive advantage. just like when everybody was saying, oh, doug williams, a black man as a quarterback, that is shocking. guess what? people figured out that, hey, we don't have to just draft white quarterbacks. >> right. >> and then the entire game changed. >> yeah, i mean this is not theoretical at all.

i mean mike tomlin is one of the best coaches in the nfl over the past 20 years. tony dungee. there have been a number of african american coaches and certainly now african american quarterbacks. it is not just about sidling up to someone in the locker room. it is actually competitively smart. >> mark, crack business reporter. >> absolutely. >> david, thank you for bringing him into the field of journalism. >> i hired mark to cover business at "the washington post" and as soon as he got there he began hanging out in the style section with the writers. >> i was tanking. no one was paying me $100,000 either. >> charles coleman, as always, thank you for being on the show. another top doctor says it is time to give up mask mandates in schools. having been called a rhino by donald trump, senator graham

stood up to donald trump and is still against part on-ing january 6th rioters. we will show you the comments when we return. we will show you the comments we will show you the comments when we return oregon just declared a state of emergency... seattle temperatures are... new evacuations... triple digit heat... thousand acres burned... flash flood threats... extreme heat... [news so voices] ...state of emergency... [flames burning] [wind blowing] with my hectic life you'd think retirement would be the last thing on my mind. hey mom, can i go play video games? sure, after homework. thankfully, voya provides comprehensive solutions and shows me how to get the most out of my workplace benefits. what's the wifi password again? here...you...go. cool. thanks.

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would you guys like to finish the conversation here or outside? >> no. >> we were going to smoke. >> were you? >> we were going quickly behind the shed and -- >> are you done now? >> i don't know. >> are you done? because the rest of the class would like to start. they came here to learn today. >> with masks on or off? >> yeah, you know, and the thing is, katty, you are such a bad influence we thanked mark liebovic to get the cue and leave the set. >> was i supposed to leave? >> it is interesting. you quit every job you have but you stay here, which is fine

with us. >> i kept him onset, which is good. i lured him through the break. >> so i'm extraneous. >> tell me. when did you leave the times? >> are we on the air? >> i love "the new york times". >> if you love it, why did you leave it? >> hold on, that's the prosecutorial approach. >> you have the perfect larry king posture. >> i'm working it. >> directing it like larry king. >> the question is why did you leave "the times"? >> i wanted to go to "the atlantic." >> why? >> you know. >> you do your honor it is all a money laundering thing like chelsea's thing, it is all a laundering thing. >> i'm all for laundering.

>> they go to the docks, get -- >> you may have to dial it back a little bit. >> you don't know anything? >> no, i'm an employee. i haven't even started yet. i don't start until april. i'm between jobs now. >> how bad of a boss do you think jeffrey is going to be? >> i don't expect the worst and i expect the best. >> do you think it will be the worst? >> no, jeffrey is great. everyone loves -- >> what do you expect him to say? >> i've known jeff for -- >> is he calling jeff out? >> when you work for him -- >> jeff is shortened some -- >> if you call him jeff in the newsroom in front of other employees, he puts you in time out. >> is that how he works? >> what does he prefer to be cold?

>> jeffrey. >> or mr. goldberg. >> before he was editor -- >> it is like you get a title, you get a longer -- >> yeah. >> i what just say, sir. >> willie, this is making me uncomfortable. . >> but viewers love it. >> i don't think we still understand why he left "the new york times." . >> you've really got him on the defensive. >> your father would never leave "the new york times". >> well, he did. >> i know. >> one of the greats, as donald trump said. >> yeah, one of the greats. i'm interested to learn if "the atlantic" is a front. >> it is. >> it is a money laundering scheme. >> jeffrey is like bateman in "ozarks," just coolers full of money. >> this isn't one of those clips you put on social media is snt. >> instead they go to the docks and it is like crab legs and things like that -- it is a long story. >> did you get any sleep last

night? >> you're going to have to play both sides -- >> yeah, i was not informed. why didn't i consult with you? >> he doesn't do much research. for a reporter, he doesn't do much research. >> i was waiting for the interrogation on national television. >> just give us a tiny nugget i'm sure we could change the subject. >> just a little bit. >> there's a term for this. >> okay. so as we look to the super bowl next week, joe, we have two things i think are competitively matched. >> i don't think that's what jackie was saying. >> oh. >> what jackie was saying -- >> is this next to me? >> just give me something. i have to write this story. i'm on deadline. give me something and i will move on to the next time. why did you leave "the times"? >> why did i leave "the times"? >> uh-huh. >> i was looking for a new opportunity. no, i wasn't. i wanted to stay at "the times." i just loved "the atlantic." >> maybe they fired you. >> "the times" fired you. they wouldn't pay what you asked

for. >> god, is elisabeth still here? this is askew. we had two of my former bosses on the set, they leave and then you start -- >> you didn't know jeffrey goldberg is the next guest, did you? >> jeff can turn up in any green room in washington. >> and he does. by the way, the sub text is because he has -- >> sorry, jeffrey. >> jeffrey, that's right. >> or mr. goldstein. >> the reason we didn't do it when elisabeth was here is because elisabeth would say a lot of nice things about mark. >> she wrote a great memo. >> she thinks you're great. did she? >> you should link to it. >> that's okay. is it really uncomfortable here? that's my goal here. >> it is not awkward at all. >> all right. jackie, i'm going to do intros in a second but first i want to know how did you get this incredible gig where you get to cover like this story that is just exploding. like you have this amazing newsletter but, my gosh, you are covering like some crazy, crazy

stuff going on the hill. >> the january 6th committee has been a trip. i have been covering congress and past republicans in particular, so it sort of made sense to segue to the crazies. >> but this committee though, we were all criticizing the committee two months ago for not doing anything. now every day it is just -- just deadlines left and right. >> i think we will be in for a very busy spring of blockbuster revelations in which they've already sort of teased with bread crumbs here and there. >> yeah. >> and various requests for ivanka and trump and sean hannity, but it indicates they have a trove of text messages and they're getting documents from the archives, but the text messages are so good. >> aren't they amazing? >> there's an immediacy, there's an informal nature about it, it shows the extent of the close relationship between the

players, how close sean hannity was to those in the white house. >> that was crazy. sean hannity giving kayleigh mcenany to handle -- >> to push donald trump away from the craziness. >> yeah. >> a lot of people out there thinking, sean hannity, the voice of reason. but sean hannity behind the scenes that night was the voice of reason, but that night to go on tv and talk like trump. but, david, the republican party, something is happening. you see these polls that show now only 38% first identify as trump supporters, 55%, 56% say they're republicans first. that's a huge change. by the way, do we have the lindsey graham clip where lindsey -- any time you have the one where he is chased through the airport. that's a good one, too. i like that one because he turns on a dime. but this one is lindsey where suddenly he's standing up to donald trump. that is good thing.

here is lindsey. he said, i stand with the police officers who protect our streets, federal courthouses and the united states capitol against rioters. te deserve our respect and support and i will not second-guess the decisions they made under dire circumstances. all americans are entitled to have a speed ae trial and their day in court, but those who actively engage in violence for whatever political cause must be held accountable and not forgiven. he is talking like a republican talks. but it hasn't been the case over the past months, oh, they were just tourists. you had ron johnson say, oh, i wasn't concerned at all, while they were beating the hell out of officers with flags. now you -- the guy with bone structure like a bird, who is the guy? >> josh hawley. >> like a bird? >> he has bone structure like a bird, it is very delicate. very delicate.

anyway, i'm so glad people can answer that question. >> i'm a generalist. >> you are a generalist. who you made a bad career choice. >> that's obvious. >> but anyway, what's happening with the republican party? there seems to be a shift and i think trump is sensing it. >> i just want to talk about mark moore actually. >> okay. >> look, i think that we should look at the republican party in a couple of ways. one, at least as early as last june when i was traveling i started to detect the possibility that republican voters wished trump had won, were disappointed he had lost. did not like republicans who bad mouthed him but were thinking of himself and telling me in interviews, i would love to find somebody like him but not him. somebody with his agenda and fighting spirit, but somebody who is fresh so we can turn the page. as we get closer to the 2022

elections, one of the things going on is that the same way democrats have had trouble, according to voters because a lot of voters don't think they have focused on the issues that matter to them right now, inflation, still dealing with the pandemic, some people feel the same about trump in that they don't want to keep relitigating things that happened a couple of years ago. >> right. >> they don't feel necessarily about january 6th and trump's post-election behavior the way many democrats feel, the way many swing voters feel, the way some republicans feel, but they don't want to keep talking about it. >> right. >> they want to talk about the future and the problems they have now. so there are some signals that if trump continues to put 2020 first -- look, i have interviewed him about this. other people have interviewed him about this, and he insists he is not going to let it go. he thinks this is what the base wants to hear and that republicans that don't do this are going to suffer, at least in their primary elections. that's why this upcoming season

beginning in march with the texas primaries carrying all the way through august is going to be a huge test. because for those republicans that are agreeing with trump, insisting the election was stolen and making that front and center, we will see how they do. >> yeah. >> for those that are taking a more future-oriented approach saying, hey, listen, love trump but we have to look to the future, it will be a chance for us to see really where republican voters are on this. >> yeah. you know, willie, one of the most i think dramatic examples of this is arizona where you look and the candidate for govern is so far out on the trump limb, you look at the person that's running the party statewide, look at the fact that they've censored the republican governor and cindy mccain, and they're in a swing state now. they're in a state with two democratic senators, and, you know, that's a perfect example. as we roll through this primary season it is going to be really

interesting to see if republicans are going to start doing what they need to do to win general elections or they're going to continue looking back. i have a suspicion looking at these polls they want to move forward. >> yeah, those are the same republican state officials, by the way, in arizona who hired the cyber ninjas to come in and see if there was bamboo in the ballots because china was stuffing the ballots. at the end of the day they found a few more votes for joe biden than for donald trump. it was a busy 24 hours in this investigation into january 6th. the national archives now says it plans to turn over records from former vice president mike pence to the january 6th committee. in a letter to donald trump the agency said the records will be delivered on march 3rd unless a court order intervenes. the committee interviewed pence's former chief of staff last week. meanwhile, the oath keepers

member, stuart rhodes appeared from a prison where he is currently awaiting trial. the committee also met with jeffrey clark yesterday, a former doj official accused of playing a key role in donald trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election. according to the senate judiciary committee clark pushed acting attorney general jeffrey rosen to publicly announce the doj was investigating election fraud and to tell state legislatures they should appoint alternate slates of electors. jackie, your reporting of a new memo circulated by trump allies shortly before the attack which reads in part, we are inrequesting potus instruct acting secretary of defense christopher miller to bring in these. among other things they will run targeted inquiries of nsa raw

signals that may not have been processed yet to pursue suspected foreign interference of the 2020 election vote count manipulation. jackie, explain a little bit about who wrote the memo and the people that fell in line and were pushing it. there are some sitting united states senators involved here, there's the ceo of a pillow company as well. how close did they get to pushing it to the president. >> we've seen a number of memos and fringey ideas surfaced in recent days and weeks but this one is a little different in that the players involved in it, whose names were on this memo, have not been yet surfaced before. one of them actually is still currently a military lawyer, this guy name fred cologne, who i'm sure you might recognize his name. it was famously photographed on mike lindell's papers as he walked into the oval he was in the lead-up to january 6th.

but he is still a lawyer in the u.s. military. his name, again, was on the memo along with someone named michael dell rosso, who unsuccessfully ran for congress in virginia along with, again, some pretty fringey conspiracy theorists, a former nfc staffer under trump because he was too extreme. but this memo is different in that it did not necessarily layout a plan to seize voting machines but rather wanted to analyze and secured unprocessed raw data to prove that there was foreign interference in the 2020 election. that could then sort of lay a foundation for then taking further steps to maybe seize voting machines or do something more extreme. but we do know a bunch of senators, kevin kramer, cynthia

loomis, ron johnson via zoom were briefed on this memo. they attended a meeting january 4th at the trump hotel two days before the insurrection. now, kramer came on and said that he didn't buy the presentation given by sidney powell, dell rosso and a few other of these players in a conference room in the hotel, but they were asked by these people to raise the memo to the president. it is unclear how far the memo made it into the mainstream channels of the administration though. >> jonathan lemire. >> hey, jackie. good morning. >> hey. >> great reporting. i wanted to ask you about mike pence who has come into sharp focus here for the january 6th committee, his actions that day still drawing the wrath of the former president. we know his former chief of staff, mark short, has been

cooperating. records from the vice president and his'des are due to be turned over in about a month. pence himself is considering a 2024 bid that he seems to be worried about upsetting the trump base too much there. whopence's orbit might help? >> you covered these people more than i did during that period, so you know how important they are to filling in the blanks of the story. mike pence was the target of the pressure team being run by the outside legal team and the former president to get him to block the certification of electoral votes or send it back to the state legislatures, but his counsel, brad jacobs and mark short, his former chief of staff, participated and cooperated with committee. they're turning over records. we reported last month mike pence does not want to himself appear before the committee. i think he realizes it is a double-edged sword for him.

he does need to sort of appease the trump base. he can't look like he's sort of crossing the former president too much, but also, you know, insurrections were chanting for him to be hung. i think he still stands by his decision to go through with the electoral certification. so he is in an interesting position here. >> yeah, he is in an interesting position. david, you were just saying republicans may not like donald trump as their candidate in 2024, but they don't want others saying bad things about him, especially the vice president. the point is well-taken. mike pence doesn't want to be seen testifying against donald trump even though all of his people may be cooperating in part because, as you said, i think he is looking into a time share in south carolina, maybe in myrtle beach. he is down there a lot. >> he has been spending a lot of time in south carolina. look, a lot of 2024 candidates are all over the primary states. pence has paid a lot of attention to south carolina

where they feel he has a natural constituency. he is headed back there in april, may. when they were approached with the idea he had the unilateral president to decide who with next president would be, he thought it was preposterous. he wanted to clear up the vagaries of the act in case somebody said, wait, they tried it, why don't we try it. the challenge for pence is this. and i was interviewing a big trump supporter last week. his approach is sometimes by the republican base, by the trump loyalists interpreted not such as what he did on january 6th in refusing to throw the election as trump wanted him to, but as

saying, oh, there was no voter fraud. so i'm not going to do this because the election was on the up and up, everything was fine. the advice he was given unsolicited in this interview that i conducted was he needs to make clear, number one, he does believe there was substantial voter fraud. maybe there just wasn't enough time to prove it. number two, it would be from this republican's perspective verboten for him to cooperate with the january 6th committee, which is seen as this larger effort on the right as not something to get to the bottom of an insurrection and the capitol being overrun and members of congress having to flee for their lives literally. but it is something that basically says, no voter fraud, everything was great, we are just trying to sweep it under the rug. we can all talk about what we think it is, what we know the committee is trying to do. i asked republicans, hey, if president biden in 2024 loses and decides to have the

supporters overrun the capitol, maybe you will want to investigate it. but this person made clear what pence ought to do is state that he disagrees with the committee and that, by the way, i stand by what i did on january 6th but, yes, there was voter fraud and i never said otherwise and that might allow him to walk this tight rope. i think ultimately in politics you go with what you've got. he ought to just say, this is what i did, this is why i did it and i don't take it back. >> here is what i would say. i think pence is obviously playing a game. first of all, mark short doesn't talk to the committee without -- i wouldn't say consent from mike pence, but certainly those two are joined at the hip. they were joined at the hip in the administration. presumably they're still joined at the hip now. there's a lot of communication between them. short, you know, was very much a proxy for pence to some degree and all a lot of pence's aide. so it would not shock me at all if things are disseminated within the committee that come sort of indirectly from pence that is, you know, a form of

cooperation. you know, you can certainly see where pence wouldn't want to have, you know, a televised perp walk before the committee. it is not going to help him in south carolina or anywhere. >> katty, it is a lot like mark meadows. mark meadows turns over all of these documents, he writes a book, he goes out and starts talking about the book. donald trump calls it fake news. suddenly he calls, as willie and i like to joke, he suddenly calls his book fake news and suddenly he tells the committee he's not going to cooperate. they're going to cooperate behind the scenes but they can't be seen as disloyal to donald trump, publicly at least. >> pence is in an extraordinary position. i don't see how he does it. i don't see how he can walk the tight rope between satisfying donald trump's january 6th

supporters who said that they wanted to hang him and then those who put the party first. i don't know what you see his political future, but that seems to make his chances of becoming the nominee very difficult. >> he wasn't naturally thought of as the heir apparent. >> right. >> as a political observer i think it is interesting to watch him try. pence has gone so far to signal to people inside the party that he may run for president even if trump decides to run himself. we know how that would turn out. >> i hope he has good security. >> pence may not want to go anywhere. but i think the best advice you have in politics, it doesn't always work. he go with your strength. what he ought to say is i was a part of the administration, a part of the accomplishments but i was willing to put my career on the line because this is what i believed in. it has a small chance of working but his best pitch.

>> his only way. >> i was saying when i was in congress and i found it to be the truth, if you are going 90 miles per hour, nobody stops you. they don't. the only time i ever had people start giving me problems is when i sat there and slowed down a little bit. you are right. if he's going to do it, you know, he's got -- he's got to embrace what he did. he has to tell people why he did it. i always found when you went to town hall meetings you could deliver the worst news, things that nobody wanted to hear and you just said, i'm here. let me tell you why i did it, this is why i did it. i'm the conservative, i'm a thatcher conservative, i'm a reagan conservative, say whatever, quote james madison. they always love when you quote james madison. when you are finished quoting james madison say, it was an honor being your vice president by my loyalty to the country is more so that donald trump, as much as i was honored. people will buy that. but you can't have it both ways.

people that try to have it both ways -- >> in a way it is the biggest lesson of the trump era for republicans, is that he is rich, he has a plane, you know, he can be jerky sometimes. he just owned it, went with it, and the message was he's not afraid of anything. by the way to your point, i don't think mark short just -- i'm going to do this anyway. >> i've got to be me. >> i think we are trying to make a distinct here more broadly speaking between trump and republicans who are toeing the line. but the problem with trump's existence is that even if you are doing this very delicate dance and you are supporting election integrity, the most galvanizing issue in the part right now, it is still enabling the former president. he is explicitly saying out loud what election integrity actually means. voters are not that dumb. so i think, you know, i think it is hard to separate the good republicans from the bad

republicans when they're still ultimately feeding this lie. >> well, definitely when you are looking at primaries in red districts where the incentive structure is still the same, you are not going to see some break. i always say republicans aren't afraid of trump. they're afraid of their own voters. >> exactly. yeah, there's a reason, willie. i mean we had the guy who was in the texas primary a couple of months ago. i forget his name because he didn't win, and he would have been the i deal republican candidate five, six, seven years ago. a marine. said all of the right things on deficits, said all of the right things on foreign policy. he just said, "we need to move past donald trump." his voters weren't ready to move past donald trump. >> yeah, they're not. we've heard that, even though lindsey graham recently in the last couple of days criticized donald trump saying he would offer pardons. he said on tv, i couldn't even support mitch mcconnell as

majority leader unless he shows me he is behind donald trump and the america first agenda as he put it. donald trump still wields that power. we'll see how it plays out. meanwhile, president biden is ordering 3,000 troops into eastern europe to reinforce nato allies there. the pentagon says the troops are not going to fight in ukraine but are part of america's commitment to nato as russia continues the buildup near the ukrainian border. let's bring in yamiche who will be joining us soon. it is great to see you. talk about this deployment of 3,000 troops. some are already europe already, being moved around and deployed to different countries. what was the idea there? do they have the sense the approach they're taking, criticized by some, may be

working to deter piece infrom going into ukraine. >> first i should say i'm excited to next month call you an official colleague. you know you have been a colleague for a couple of years now. i'm excited to join the nbc family. >> so are we. >> thank you so much. as it relates to this decision by president biden and it is a significant decision to deploy 3,000 troops to eastern europe. the president said yesterday it is, quote, totally consistent with the message the united states has been sending russia and putin in particular. it is a show of force to say that native allies will have the backing of the united states military. officials are stressing the fact these military officials will not be fighting in ukraine, but there's a sense there is sengs tension in the region and the united states needs to show this force. the other thing that's important is that the white house and press secretary jen psaki in

particular said the white house is moving away from using the term imminent to describe what is going on with the ukraine and russia border. that's significant because essentially you had ukrainian officials and the president saying that was not the right term and there were tense calls between the president of ukraine and president biden. but here you have sort of both trying to calm things down and trying to change the rhetoric so everyone sort of takes a deep breath, but also understanding military force and military show of force is really needed here. it is anyone's guess still when i talk to white house officials what the president of russia will ultimately do, but this really is trying to deter him and say, look, if you make this decision it will be hard consequences for you. >> yeah, we will talk to amendment bill taylor, former ambassador to ukraine, in a few moments ago. the president is also trying to manage a supreme court

nomination. former clinton white house political director moore will mobilize outside groups to build support for the nominee, the white house says. meanwhile, bill bolt, former white house spokesman for president obama will advise on messaging. senate majority leader chuck schumer met with the president to discuss the selection process. meanwhile, judiciary committee member senator john kennedy, republican of louisiana, told polite kol yesterday, quote, i want a nominee who knows a law book from a j. crew catalogue and i want a nominee who is not going to try to rewrite the constitution every other thursday to try to advance a woke agenda. i'm not sure what the j. crew comment means, yamiche. we have seen the aforementioned senator lindsey graham saying he could get behind judge childs from south carolina, along with

jim scott talking about it yesterday. what is the process looking like from the white house when you have it seems to be a pool of three highly qualified women who will be the next justice on the supreme court. >> well, can i just say that as someone who has run around the capitol, senator kennedy is always good for some sort of quote that will just sort of stop you dead in your track. the j. crew quote makes you shake your head but it is very much senator kennedy. but when it comes to this process, really it is a white house that's gearing up to really make sure there's a messaging muscle behind who this nominee is going to be. she will be the first black woman nominated to the bench. there's a lot of criticism it is, quote, affirmative action which, of course, the white house and so many others are pushing back on because it is essentially saying there's no black woman that is qualified to be on the supreme court unless there is special consideration, which most people around this country are clearly thinking it is false here. but really what you see here is a group of people who are wanting to make sure that this

nominee is both protected but also supported as she goes through this process. what you also see here is messaging from republicans who are trying to make this case they don't want a nominee that's going to sort of make law from the bench. of course, we have seen a very polarized supreme court. we saw former president trump nominate three people to the bench in lightning speed with the republicans sort of backing the idea he should have his mark on the supreme court. now it is president biden's chance, and that nominee is, of course, going to based on my conversations with white house officials, that nominee is going to both reflect his values, reflect what he wants the law to look like, reflect what he wants the law to be followed like, but also that nominee is going to look like a significant portion of the democratic play. she will be a black woman who is going to be qualified, who will be able to talk about the law. from my conversations with folks, both civil rights officials as well as white house officials, whoever the nominee is on that long list of women, even though there's a shorter list there, will be someone who

is going to be qualified and that the president is going to feel very, very comfortable nominating. >> we should remind people judge jackson is the nominee from the d.c. circuit court of appeals. she received three votes less than a year ago from republicans to sit in that seat. yamiche alcindor, great to see you as always. we will see you officially with the nbc news family shortly here. still ahead on "morning joe," students and teachers who want to stop wearing masks are getting support from a former fda commissioner. plus, he is not running for governor but it doesn't mean bill de blasio is finished with politics. i will tell you the office the former mayor of new york city is now seeking perhaps. also ahead, san jose, california, is considering an insurance requirement for gun owners. we'll dig into how that would work exactly. you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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a cloudy, rainy day ahead in new york city. president biden will be traveling to new york today to meet with mayor eric adams to discuss his strategy to end gun violence. the meeting follows a recent spike in gun crime in the city and nationwide. joining us now nbc news national correspondent gabe gutierrez. good morning. >> good morning. today's trip marks president biden's most high-profile effort yet to address an issue the american public feels more needs to be done on, but the president is trying to walk the fine line in supporting law enforcement while also responding to calls for police reform. new numbers this week show the nation's most populated city battling a brutal crime wave. the nypd's latest data shows crime is up 38% overall in new york city this year with shootings up 32%, transit crime up 70%, and car thefts jumping a staggering 93%. in january, 25 police officers were shot nationwide, five in

new york city alone including two fatally. >> i love you, baby bro, and i will always miss you. >> one of them officer wilbert mora was laid to rest wednesday. he was killed alongside his partner, officer jason rivera, while responding to a domestic violence call. >> an ocean of officers shouldn't have to line streets for the second time in five days to mourn the appalling loss of a 27-year-old son and brother. >> reporter: mayor eric adams, a former police captain, pledging to make public safety his priority. he is putting his efforts into stopping guns flowing into the city. it is a goal he shares with president biden as 24% of americans say they're satisfied with the nation's policy to reduce or control crime. the biden administration balancing the need to address the growing violence with

progressive calls of an overhaul of the police departments. >> does defunding the police work? >> no, it does not. >> reporter: in an interview with nbc "nightly news," the mayor says there's a way to do both. he is rolling out steps to combat gun violence including using facial recognition to identify suspects and more cops on the streets. >> i have too many police officers doing clerical duties. if you're inside, i need to know why you're inside. if you're not, i need you to put on the bullet-proof vest and do the job you were hired for, to protect us against violent people. >> reporter: still, the issue of bail reform. critics, including police unions, say it is allowing more criminals to remain on the streets. >> it is the revolving door. i was along fifth avenue yesterday in new york. incredibly moving to see almost the entirety of the new york city police department out to honor the life of officer mora. thanks so much. san jose, california, is looking to become first city in

the country to institute an insurance requirement for gun owners. joining us live from san jose with the latest is nbc text correspondent jake ward. jake, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, willie. you know, we in america are used to the idea that for instance to be able to drive a car you have to carry insurance, and that is, of course, in part to defray the cost to all of us of more than 40,000 auto fatalities each year. we have never before considered putting insurance together with firearms even though firearms cause more than 45,000 deaths every year. now, the city of san jose is going to experiment with a new policy that would require its 55,000 gun owners to do that and pay an annual fee. in may of 2021 a city worker killed ten people here in san jose with three handguns legally purchased. >> the shooter targeting his co-workers. >> this is a very dark moment

for our city. >> reporter: mayor sam liccardo says that is only the most visible form of gun violence in his city. we had in a 13-day period after that horrific shooting at the rail yard we had eight gun-involved deaths or serious injuries. this is what it is to be in america right now. >> reporter: every single shooting costs cities like san jose money. according to one independent study as much as $35 million a year in san jose in emergency medical and court costs. so san jose is now going to require roughly 55,000 gun owners to carry firearm liability insurance and pay an annual $25 fee to support violence reduction and mental health programs. >> not going to affect the criminals as all because they're going to keep doing what they're doing. >> this is for a constitutional right and we don't do it with other constitutional rights. >> reporter: that is the argument made in a lawsuit against san jose by the national association for gun rights. >> it is the same as you being required to pay a fee and get

insurance just to air this show. >> reporter: are you concerned this could somehow become a national standard? >> if our lawsuit doesn't overturn this, it is possible that other cities and states will seek legislation like this in an effort to curtail its citizens from practicing their second amendment rights. of course, we want to stop this right now. >> reporter: mayor liccardo says san jose respects the second amendment but cannot bear its cost. >> the second amendment protects all of our rights to own a gun and possess a gun, but it doesn't require our taxpayers to subsidize that right. >> reporter: now, willie, the plaintiffs in this lawsuit against san jose's new ordinance essentially say that, you know, driving a car is not a constitutional right and attaching a special fee to those who are exercising their second amendment rights is not fair. meanwhile, mayor sam liccardo

here says $1.4 billion a year in spent in public money by the state of california to deal with gun violence. he says that simply cannot continue without asking for some help in defraying those costs. willie. >> interesting to see where this goes. jake ward in san jose, california. jake, thanks so much. coming up here, we mentioned president biden travels to new york city today. but first he is set to speck at the national prayer breakfast this morning. a live look inside the congressional auditorium where the ceremony will take place. it begins in about half an hour. the president will speak and then he will be wheels up for new york city. we will be watching that closely. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right "morning joe" is coming right back woo! new personal record, limu! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ ♪ ♪making your way in th♪ ♪takes everything you've got♪ ♪ ♪taking a break from all your worries ♪

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former fda commissioner dr. scott gottlieb says it is time to consider getting rid of mask mandates in schools and he's not alone. here is dr. gottlieb yesterday on cnbc. >> going into the omicron wave the blood sample testing the cdc did demonstrated all extent of

americans had some exposure to covid, they had antibodies whether it was through vaccination, infection or bot. we have a population with a tall wall of immunity. in that setting we have to tolerate and probably should a higher level of baseline spread at the point at which we consider withdrawing some of th withdraw some of this mitigation. if we wait for 100,000 in every community can we will have to wait until spring no return some sense of normalcy in schools. >> joe, this is such a hard call for schools grappling with this. when is the beenchmark within you can say to your kids, okay, lose the mask. it's time. some of the kids had the opportunity to be vaccinated. teachers, obviously, all can be vaccinated except those who can tolerate it for a medical condition. but there will come a day when parent, teachers, schools, will say, it's time based on the evidence, tron situation in

schools and everything we are learned to get rid of those masks. >> i think for parents, it will be a case-by-case basis, as we move past omicron. we're getting past it in new york city. past it in florida. then those decisions, it will be up to (to make those decisions, and, catty, i think that's where parent are. i think that's where most people in america are. they're ready to move beyond this. i know it's a veers the virus, you know, basically sets the rules, but i just think most parents are ready to get past it. if they want to send their kids to school with an n-95 mac, that's certainly understandable. especially if a kid has an underlying condition. i think most parents are ready for a return to normalcy for their children. >> there was a poll out suggested there are certain number of people not overwhelmed. i can't imagine who those might

be. everybody is if aings po. i think we understand after two years we can take the masks off, relax the rules and go back to school. it is possible there could be another variant. we may have to have restrictions again at that moment. we have to be able to respond to this in waves rather than the continuum of having the same level of restricts, what testify circumstances of the disease. >> i think this is really the problem with communication from cdc, whether last administration or this administration and from other healthcare officials who i think scott gottlieb, who actually has done very well on this, pre-delta. he said, relax them dramatically and make a big deal out of it. let people know if you can safely relax the guidelines, the government is going to do that. that gives you the credibility if there is another wave in the fall to tell people, all right. we need the put the masks on no

a little bit. when this has passed, we'll take it off. it's not what this government has done in the trump or biden administration, a lot of the healthcare officials had stumbled along. >> i think one thing we have certainly learned is that, you know, viral, viruses like this do not sort of order themselves along political news cycles, sort of sound bytes, that kind of thing. basically, the way a pandemic stays alive is it adapts. i think that society sort of collectively, not so much through any individual press release or announcep from a president. you sort of learn to live with something. it becomes about rick assessment, like everything. >> willie, some breaking news overnight, on the syria raid. have you some more information on it? >> yeah, we have an update on that breaking story overnight. we reported at the top of the show, the pittsburgh says the u.s. forces carried out a successful yourn counter

terrorism in syria. jonathan, what more can you tell us? >> this came across, willie, the president tweeted. it is leader of isis was the target in syria today. i am going to read what the president's statement just now. last night at my direction, u.s. military forces in northwest syria successfully undertook a counter terrorism operation. he thanks the skill and bravery of the armed forces. we have taken off the battlefield the leader of isis. he is the one that took over for al baghdadi in 2016. not much in the way of details just yet a. certain win for the armed forces the president says he will be delivering remarks to the american people later this morning. unclear if it will be at that prayer breakfast, perhaps later in the day before he heads to fork. but a significant, we hear the phones ringing here, breaking news, significant move here and a win as isis was trying to

reform and restrengthen itself again in that portion of syria, there was growing concern about the reach elsewhere and particularly after fall of afghanistan, significant development here. >> yeah, and like walter cronkite here. i've got the phone ringing. i got the black phone. i put it under the desk. so is, we have, by the way, helene cooper, of course, the correspondent with the "new york times" will be with to us talk about this in a little bit. jonathan, any idea this was coming? have you heard any rumblings at all? or is this something we think the intel mofld quickly on it? >> it still is developing. we will learn more how long u.s. forces have tracked this, it was news overnight about the strike here. reports on the ground of some casualties and initially those in syria suggested those were women and perhaps children targeted as well and potentially

died. this is still very fluid. it's only a few hours old. u.s. officials are still piecing together what happened. i suspect we will get a much more thorough picture from the president. just to recap, the current leader of isis, who took over from al baghdadi, who. , was killed by u.s. forces in 2019 was the target of this raid, the counter terrorism operation in northwest syria and according to president biden that operation is a success and he has been removed from the battlefield. coming up, helene cooper and alexander vindman. they will tell you about this as well as well as what's happening in russia when "morning joe" returns. as what's happening as what's happening inr local cvs. or same day if you need it sooner. but aren't you glad you can also just swing by to pick it up, returns. because peace of mind is something you just can't get in a cardboard box.

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our president biden and vice president harris and the national security team observing the counter terrorism in syria responsible for removing from the battlefield the leader of isis, jonathan le mere and katty kay are still with us. so, jonathan what do we know? >> joe, let's reset what we just learned. this news came over a few minutes ago. the president put out a statement in operation in syria we learned overnight and are reporting on earlier today, we knew there was a successful strike. we know who the target was, the leader of isis. he has been the leader, the global terror network since 2019 when he took over from al baghdadi, who the u.s. killed back then. he has been hiding in syria. this is a moment where isis was trying to regroup and strengthen itself in that region. alarming security experts in the wake of the u.s. withdrawal from

afghanistan. e u.s. withdrawal from he has now been eliminated per the president. all americans have returned safely. that is great news. the white house telling me, we should expect to hear from the president about this at 9:30, he will be addressing the american people with an update on this raid, which was successful, killing the current leader of the islamic state terror group. >> joe, as jonathan mentioned, this is the man who inherited the title the head of isis after u.s. special forces killed al baghdadi if october of 2019, not far looking at the map from where this raid took place in syria along the turkish border. special forces going in again, appears taking out the new leader of isis. he he is dead. the white helmets, the rescue service in syria, reporting 13 people were killed. they report women and children among the dead in a raid on a

compound there. the pentagon also telling nbc news the united states did lose a helicopter, but it landed safely. it experienced some mechanical problem. in the bin ladin raid they lost a helicopter and were down to one. no u.s. casualties. we will hear from the president shortly this morning. >> i was surprised when i heard it was in northwest syria. i expected perhaps northeast syria, close to the iraq border. i'm wondering whether operations started in turkey or iraq. it will be fascinating to see. but areaing let's bring in right now a former chief of staff to let them talk about it. former chief of staff, the cia and department of defense national analyst jeremy bash, correspondent from the "new york times" helene cooper and former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, bill palm early, and european

executive board member of the initiative retired u.s. army lt. col. alexander vindman. jeremy, let me start with you. we have been talking about it on the sho, we saw it when we had 2500/3,000 troops in syria, what that small group was able to do with u.s. troops. we look back over the last 20 years and what many in the press would call several military failures. you look over the past 20 years and u.s. troops through those trials and tibblations have learned to kill bad guys with ruthless efficiency. we saw nit syria, we were able to hold off the russians, iranians, kill isis, go down the list. this is something that we can do. whether it's the leader of isis or somebody in al qaeda that sticks their head up.

>> this is a major win for biden. in that area you referenced, joe, we have been conducting airstrikes there, predator strikes. for the united states to put on the the x special operations forces, probably from the 160th special operations air regiment out of kentucky, the operations command led by the delta force, army special operations teams. to put them in harm's way to go after senior terrorist leader shows how significant this raid was. this was a big stakes decision by the president and appears to have paid off. >> helene, no hint of this, that this was coming. right? >> i am doing all this backtracking now and i heard i now replay a conversation i heard yesterday morning when i thought it was about ukraine and not that we're putting troops in ukraine, but right in advance of

the pentagon, the announcement that we're sending troops to eastern europe and a source told me, we have several operations, there are several ops under way, i am now kicking myself, i didn't think isis. this is quite a big deal. the fact that we put commandos sewing hugely ricky. president biden took a big risk. but there is a war. we do have reports of civilian casualties. we don't know at this point, it looks like there could actually may have blown themselves up and taken people out with him. but we don't know yet. the exact measure here as we were reporting this overnight. but this is a high reward. because isis has started to become a threat again. as you know, we had a few, a couple years of quiet and there was concern growing that the group had reconstituted and was

now posing again a threat. both in syria and in iraq. so this is an issue that biden seals to have capped off at the fees. that doesn't mean it doesn't reconstitute again and again. but this is a big success for president biden at a time where he probably needed to show that the u.s. whether it puts its mind to it can go in and schwack somebody. >> a reminder that battle keeps going, the people, the terrorists that blew up american marines, here's the president this morning, but on capitol hill. but those people who killed american troops in afghanistan not the taliban, isis. >> it was isis. i isis has been one of the biggest concerns in afghanistan has been isis and the frothy of

isis in afghanistan. so that's something. and with american troops out of afghanistan now they're moving to what they call the pentagon calls this over the horizon strategy, which relies on long-range drone strikes, stuff done from not inside the country. this just what happened in syria was not over the horizon by any stretch of the imagination. >> no. >> we sent commandos on the ground, that's a big deal to risk american troops in that, you know, that operation, that was a big risk. so. >> so let's go from syria to ukraine. what you can tell us about the pentagon's current thinking going on there? >> you saw they announced yesterday we are sending troops to eastern europe. none of these troops are going into ukraine. 2,000 to po land, 1,000 to romania. this is not the end. we are told there may be more troops going to be deployed to

nato allies in the coming days or weeks. but this is all about re-assuring nato and the eastern flank of nato the so-called eastern flank. those are the eastern european countries that joined nato after the collapse of the soviet union and so those are the ones that vladimir putin is most agitated about. you saw his long detailed, his screen late last year, which he basically you know came out completely came out with what many analysts see as a wish to return to the soviet union. it's like a redrawing, he wants a redrawing of the map of europe. so right now, all of what the united states is doing on the troop deployment front is sources say, look, what may happen with ukraine may happen. and we are going to, we will

continue backing the ukrainian military, fighting that with sanctions, but forget about nato, take nato off of your mind. we're here to show that that is a line in the sand. president biden isn't sending troops to ukraine. it will be almost treasonous if you think about getting into a war with vladimir putin over ukraine. this is not, ukraine is not you know considered a top american national security priority. but nato is. and that is who is kind of putting a line in the sand there. >> it's really started as a slow roll. let's just say joe biden saying a few things out loud that he should not have said out loud and sending i think some terrible messages of vladimir putin. since that press conference, we have seen the white house correcting itself. the white house actually getting mitch mcconnell and republicans and democrats together

shoulder-to-shoulder and exerting sol real force, moving troops into places, really the last places on earth vladimir putin would like those troops to be sent. what is your assessment of how the united states and our allies are doing in countering the threat that on the border right now of ukraine? >> joe, i think we are succeeding for now in deterring an attack, deterring an invation the russians have been threatening for some time. for now, it seems to have been deterred. it may still happen in the future. but vladimir putin has been surprised, as you say, at the unity of the nato alliance, has been surprised at the unity in the united states, you just mentioned that as a republican and democrats. he has been surprised at the inability of all those troops on ukraine's board tore intimidate

president zelensky or president biden. >> what is zelensky telling everyone, it's not much of a threat? is that for you train i craneians so in is not a panic? what is he doing? >> certainly for the ukrainians not to panic. i just talked about with him on monday at some length. around he wants to convey a calm, a determination, a resolve, both to his own people but also to president putin, also to the united states, his allies, his supporters who are there and he needs to demonstrate that firm leadership and no one is budging on the demand that president putin has had to forget about nato or ukraine. ukraine is still, the door is still opened. >> what calculation in terms of giving putin he ep with an off-ramp not to invade ukraine? if nato and the u.s. give putin

anything, the chance is that he goes back home. he says, look, you see, actually, this works. i send all those troops to the border. i threaten ukraine. look who i got, right? he can play that as a win for himself. which then is going to make going forwards romania, poland, estonia feel particularly nervous? >> it will make them feel nervous, no doubt. however, the main goal for now is to deter that invasion and so far we have done that. and the notion of an off-ramp being to sit down and have a conversation with president biden, even with president zelensky, to have a negotiation rather than an invasion is a win. >> we don't have to give him anything? >> we do not have to give him anything. we shouldn't give him anything. we can sit down and talk. there are some deals, some treaties we could have that could make us better your and

address some of his stated concerns and those if they make us better off, that's a win. >> willie. >> colonel vindman, last time we spoke to you on this show on this topic, you were convinced putin made up his mind to go into ukraine at one time or another. has anything changed your mind since then? >> i think what i was trying to communicate is we are on the cusp of a major european conflict, rather than vladimir putin making firmly up his mind in one direction or another. where i think putin response to is his counterpart leaders exthe other leaders he considers more leaders and their resolve around issues. i think president biden has shown a great deal of resolve an fortitude in defending the national security interests. even his decision to withdraw from afghanistan was about bringing back u.s. troops to focus on other missions, other

higher priority missions in extracting us out of 20 years or more. now we have this very potent strike in northwest syria. that sends a strong message, clarity that a plan that president biden actually conduct operations over the horizon, which includes strikes cruise missile strikes, boots on the ground, is a viable way to suppress enemy terrorist groups and to take out hoy valued people. this is a big win for america and adding to thisry solve the u.s. is defend intgs. the diplomacy that's coming toke to indicate that it will be high costs for vladimir putin. the defensive lething lal aid. all coming together. i would like to see action on the domestic side with the ukraine support bill. all this may very well have the

desiredesque around close off this window that there is an opportunity for putin to seize ukraine to realize he has to save ukraine. there is still a chance to avert this. we started off late. this rolled out too late. we looked in it very dire. i wouldn't say i am eased. i am feeling better to maybe somehow avert this. >> jeremy, if vladimir putin was taking a lead of u.s. presidents and their responses to invasions, you look at george w. bush in 2008 in georgia, president biden obviously exhausted from seven years of war. there was no way we are going to do anything forcibly there. 2014, president obama not even sending defensive troops to ukraine at the beginning. again, we seem to be sending a message to putin that we were going to do nothing. same thing here. now again, we've ramped it up.

i am just curious at this stage, isn't this reaction the worst case scenario for vladimir putin, more troops in the baltics. fighters on the border? they have fighters on the border of russia. more troops in poland. it seems to me that if he is seeking an off-ramp because he doesn't you want more troops to flood into the soviet union, that has to be the state department's thinking now, how do we give vladimir putin an off-ramp, where he can go back to russians and say, we've made our point and crisis averted. >> joe, i think are you right. i think this is backfiring on the kremlin. why do i say that? nato is more together, more cohesive than it has ever been. over the past four years, there

was a lot of discussions about the trans-atlantic fracturing, the united states drawing away from europe. this crisis put us together with our allies. we put 3,000 troops flachl forward. over to germany. he put another striker squadron forward. we're going to have 8500 troops on the prepare-to-deploy order. we are showcasing the military might of the united states f. vladimir putin drew a lesson from afghanistan that joe biden was unwilling to utilize the military power of the united states, i think today's events in syria, but also the discussion about how we're going to fortify and bolster nato proved vladimir putin dead wrong. >> it's such a misreading. it would be such a misreading of afghanistan. because we all know, anybody that followed joe biden knows. let's just say it. hated karzai. he hated our involvement in

afghanistan starting in 2009. he felt they were scam artists. shyters. any reason of him yanking troops out of afghanistan would be a terrible misreading of this situation. >> i think it would be. what's very strange about this is if you do a little monday morning quarter backing. you look back, putin had an opportunity actually to perhaps splinter nato if he had gone a little bit softner just like just going into dambas. that small incursion biden slipped and said. that is the sort of thing that would possibly peel off skittish members of nato, who are not that, don't necessarily want to be fighting with russia. germany may not have been as

united with the rest of nato. putin could have gone in, the in fact when he is circling and threatening a large scale invasion of the country, which is what he's done, put troops into belarus. that military exercises. by threatening to go in as big as he did as big as she threaten to go in. he has now ended up unifying nato. the kind of fracture that he might have had, which could have, would have been a very big victory for him. he doesn't look like he's getting right now. it's a weird position we are in now. he says, i don't understand how, i thought he was a very good chess player, right? leak what's the maybe ambassador taylor is betting getting what vladimir putin said. >> let me ask you, mr. ambassador, about a question that has been lingering out there among extreme elements of

the trump reich. that is that russia is, are that ukraine is no better than russia. and asking the question, why in the world would we not be on russia's side instead of ukraine's? we heard josh holly say yesterday, let's forget about ukraine? none of our business, basically, he said, let russia have ukraine. he called them biden dropped support for ukraine membership in nato. it got an interesting response from adam kinzinger. you can tell adam has a future as a diplomat. i hate to be so personal, but hawley is one of the worst human beings and self egrandizing con artist. i hope this evil will be in the open to be ashamed of.

a light touch. another member of the trump extreme right saying why don't we vote for russia here? >> easy answer, ukraine is a democracy. a young democracy. it's only been a democracy on its own independent for 30 years. it wants to be a part of europe. it will have to be a part of nato, a part of the european union. it has values the same as ours. >> critic say very corrupt. talk about corruption in ukraine. >> i will talk about corruption in any country in the world, including in our,, but in ukraine, yes, they have a big problem with oligarks, a problem with their judiciary with the court. ukraine is struggling to overcome that. that's a soviet legacy they are struggling to overcome. they are a democracy. they have changed presidents over and over all this time. that's not the case in any of the post-soviet countries we are

talking about. this is a country we should support and are supporting. you mentioned there is bipartisan support by and large almost entirely across the spectrum. >> mitch mcconnell saying joe biden is working in the right direction. >> working toke. >> i tell you what, reese and menendez on the committee have just been exemplary. they have been an example of how republicans and democrats should work together on foreign policy matters. >> ukraine is a great example of that bipartisan support. it should continue. i think the vast majority of americans will support that. >> all right. former u.s. ambassador e to ukraine, jeremy bash and pittsburgh correspondent for the "new york times" who is kicking herself this morning because what she heard yesterday and didn't quite piece together. seriously, who would have thought it wasn't about ukraine? c'mon. no, you are not, seriously, who would have thought. >> they already told me there

are many ops working right now. yeah, whatever. >> thank you so much. can you tell us the lawsuit filed yesterday against donald trump, jr., rudy guiliani and two allies for conspireing to intimidate and refusing to testify in the president's impeachment inquiry. >> thanks, that's a hard pivot away from natural relations where i'm comfortable. i am very happy to talk about this. frankly this lawsuit is about accountability. it's about holding accountable corrupt officials related to or key figures in the trump administration in that the frankly the trump network now and that have acted with impunity. they have attacked officials. they do that right now with regard to investigations by the january 6th committee, by the courts and the attorneys in

georgia. in my case, i was serving as an official on the u.s. government. i was cast to with certain responsibilities and obligations. i have reported wrong-doing behind closed doors through official channels. at that point i became the target of a conpier is trees attack my character to vilify me. to undermine this the most brave of activities. an impeachment of the president of the united states. it was a campaign of intimidation against an official. it has a chilling everything on other officials on whistle blowers. it's intended to undermine the rule of law, the foundations of democracy. we have a very good chance with this, it's clear that the level or coordination between the trump administration and the right wing media and the use of these officials to attack serving officials within the u.s. government is apparent and i'm glad to take this forward.

>> all right. thank you so much. army lt. col. alexander vindman, we appreciate you being here. his recent book is here, right matters, an american story. still ahead on "morning joe", previously undisclosed legal memos show the roots of donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 loss, putting different people in place to change the results int vote. that new reporting next on "morning joe." vote. vote. that new reporting next on what you need, and we gotta do it fast. [limu emu squawks] woo! thirty-four miles per hour! "morning joe." [limu emu squawks] he'll be back. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪

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. my memos obtained by the "new york time's" appear to show the origin of the trump campaign's plan to create fake slate of electors to help donald trump overturn the 2020 election. one memo issued 15 days after election day show how the trump campaign sought to buy itself more time to overturn the results. at the heart of the strategy, the "times" reports, was the idea the real deadline was not

december 14th when they were chosen to reflect the outcome but january 6th when congress would meet to certify results. the memos were to address trump's challenge in wisconsin, ultimately became a part to pressure vice president mike pence to block the certification of joe biden's win. for some context to this reporting, one elections expert, a guy david becker tweeted this, quote, important to note the same day the trump campaign sent a memo to wisconsin seeking to overturn the little of wisconsin voters was the deadline for trump to demand a state wide recount. he declined to do. it was two weeks before to certify the election. in essence, this reporting demonstrates that trump was trying to overturn results that weren't even certified yet. in which the he didn't think were worthy of state wide recounts. joe, this is two weeks after the election, donald trump just explicitly according to these memos in his campaign, trying to

put different people in place who would change the results of the vote. >> it couldn't be any more clear on donald trump's intent here. it is such a scam. wisconsin reveals him for the scam artist like he s. he was talking about rigged elections in the summer of 2020. six months before the election, even took place. here jonathan, donald trump is seeking an alternate set of electors, despite the fact he didn't challenge the voting for a recount and it was even before those recounts were certified. so he didn't know what the results were going to be. he didn't care what the results were going to be. he knew he lost on election day, so the only thing he cared about was or lost from the votes cast on election day and absentee ballots. so he was, no matter what, he was just going to claim it was rigged and put up these scam set of electors.

>> it was a month's long process to sew seeds of doubt. we heard him rail against maim-in ballots. to that point, a lot of republicans and older voters opted to use those ballots against the advice of his aides. he said mail-in ballots will be a means to fix the election. we can't trust them. he new democrats were encouraging their voters to do so because the pandemic did not stand in line. there was that. he didn't bother with the recount. they wanted to install new sets of electors. they weren't going to suddenly hand him the white house. they were going to add more confuels, perhaps delay the process there in the middle of the steve when the electoral cheenl was to moot. they wanted on january 6th for them to present confusion here. the several battleground states that went for joe biden, we can't trust their results. so let's toss them out. that was the plan outlined by

john eastman in those memos. we can't trust those seven states. mike pence, presiding over the ceremony tosses them out. if you no with the other 43 states, hey, donald trump wins. he's got more. he doesn't have 270. he'd have more than joe biden at that point. that was the plan. as farfetched as it may seem, that was what they were trying to do. the cubes there was no legitimate means to contest the elections. it was all about him simply trying to maintain power. >> again, warp they doing? look at the stakes, he was claiming that there were scam results. wisconsin had a republican legislature. pennsylvania had a republican legislature. michigan had a republican legislature. we said on this show months ahead of time, counted election day, counted all the votes election day, there was a proposal to do it like florida does or else this is exactly what is going to happen. florida another swing state had a republican legislature, georgia had a republican

legislature. and a republican secretary of state and republican governor. again this is donald trump, this all shows intent, that it was just a scam from the very beginning. >> and also that the, there was i guess a method to their madness. but what is so striking the last couple, last week or so is how much donald trump has been out there, himself, you know, talking about this, saying, you know, i asked, i wanted mike pence to overturn the election. what we're see secretary he's completely now out in the open about it. and from his own words and the reporting and this revelations to the committee how much he was completely centrally involved. it was run by him. you know, there was the thought that you know sydney powell and guiliani, donald trump is directing this. and that is, we have forgotten that, that he was the president of the united states. he was trying to overturn an american election.

we've gotten so used to donald trump. it's kind of extraordinary when you look and see what they were doing, trying to do systematically. >> coming up, the super bowl, making headlines for wrong reasons. gee, that's never happened before. we're hearing from a former coach who says the league has racist hiring policies. that's next. morning joe returns. returns. returns. >> (burke) well, you'd get a discount for insuring your jet skis... and boat...rv...life... ...home and more. you could save up to forty-five percent. (man) that's a whole lot of discounts. (burke) well, we offer coverage for a whole lot of things, and you could save a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks. (kid) sup, dad! (burke) seventeen-car garage you got there? ♪we are farmers♪ ♪bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum♪ with my hectic life you'd think retirement would be the last thing on my mind. hey mom, can i go play video games?

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. flores learned the new york giants head coaching job had gone to someone else three days before he was scheduled to interview for the position. so he's saying they wasted his time just to check a pretend box about how they pretend to care about diversity. so i imagine it did take the pressure off the job interview, where do i see myself in five years? i don't know, suing you. >> former miami dolphins' head coach brian flores says his

lawsuit against the nfl and three of its teams over alleged racist hiring practices will continue if he becomes a head coach again. he may well. flores interviewed for the houston texans and new orleans saints. while he is prepared to answer a potential call this off season and take a job. he says the suit will go on because the lead needs to change. here is flores talking about it last night on "all if" with chris hayes. >> at the end of the day, this isn't about me. this is about black and minority coaches, black and minority leaders who don't get an opportunity to showcase their skills, their leadership, their acumen, their intelligence, their abilities in whatever field it is and in my case, you know, and in the nfl's case, as coaches and leaders in this league. we need to change the hearts and mind of the people that make

those decisions. >> flores discussed the messages he receives. he says he got them from patriot's head coach bill belichick who mistakenly congratulated him before flores had been interviewed. the suit alleges that the interview was held purely as a demonstration of compliance with the nfl's rooney rule. >> it confirmed what we thought was happening behind closed doors. and it confirmed that for me. and it's juju in football. it's in a lot of different industries. >> meanwhile, miami dolphins' owner stephen ross has responded to allegations that he offered flores $100,000 per loss in order to tank the team's 2019 season and get a better draft pick. ross writing, in part, i take great personal exception to these malicious attacks, the truth must be known, his allegations are false, malicious

and defamatory. hugh jackson, former cleveland browns coach, is describing to espn yesterday, the team's 40-year plan that he says incentivized losing and led to his 1 and 31 record in 2016 and 2017 seasons. jackson said he would will be to join flores' lawsuit. a spokesman for the browns called it completely fabricated. the rooney rule requires teams to interview minority candidates. it's been almost 20 years that rule has been in place. there is currently one black coach in the nfl, he is in pittsburgh. mike tomlin, he has been there a long time. flores, by the way, is a finalist for the houston texan's job. he is very much in the running for that job. he says if he gets that job and becomes the head coach in new orleans or anywhere else, he will continue because the league needs to be exposed for the way

it hires and does not hire coaches. >> jackson saying they paid him to lose games in cleveland? he just one, this guy is efficient. i want him working on my team. you want me to lose, sure, 1 in 31. c'mon. >> it must have cost a fortune. >> as my grandma say grace is plenty when it comes to losing. he should be hired, willie, the guy won. he had nine games out of miami. i can't say that enough. when are you hearing, the miami dolphins are winning eight out of fin games in a row at any part of the season, you know it's time to start asking if this guy will start to replace nick saban. those are bear bryant to bes in miami. it's such a bad, bad franchise. they have been bad so long. up next, here looking at you, kid, the unlikely start for what is considered the greatest movies of all time. 80 years after casablanca

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. >> you said i was to do the thinking for both of us. you are getting on that plane where you belong. you got to listen to me. do you have any idea what you'd have to look forward no if you stayed here? nine times out of ten we'd end up in a concentration catch, isn't that true? >> it exists. >> i'm saying it because it's true. inside of us, we both know you long with victor. that plane leaves the ground, are you not with him. you regret it. maybe not today, tomorrow, but soon for the rest of your life. >> what about us? >> it always will have passed.

>> it's been 80 years, kas sa blank ka continues to be one of the most enduring films ever made. its success wasn't a sure thing. with us journalist freelance writer and book reviewer who had a recent piece for "the washington post" titled casablanca had titled "casablanca" had a rocky start. they never expected it to be a classic. thanks for being here. it reminds me of hearing frank khapra. he was interviewed about jimmy stewart and "it's a wonderful life" when it had its sort of second reemergence. he said i kept trying to explain the film to jimmy and he just kept staring at me going, i don't get it. i don't get it. he didn't expect that to become the classic that it's become all these years later. same with "casablanca" made four years earlier. >> yes. it was really -- it did get off

to a rocky start in many ways because the script was only half finished at the time that they started production. they began filming the scenes at the beginning where they're back in paris and reminiscing about, you know, what life was like. ingrid bergman kept going to the director and saying i don't know how to play the character. do i love victor or my husband? what's the story here? he said we'll play it in between. bogart didn't want to do it because he'd never played a romantic part before. he played tough guys. he was duke and sam spade and this was completely out of his element he thought. and yet they panged to pull this off in such a way that it's still such a classic motion picture. i've watched it i can't tell you how many times and i still get goose bumps.

>> david, i've watched this film more than i've watched any other film and i still love watching it and i still see things in the cinematography that i hadn't noticed before. i'm a huge fan of how claude raines dominates the film with his portrayal of louie and the humor it has. it's taught in screenplay writing courses. what is it about the screenplay, the cinematography, the way it was put together that makes it so good? >> it's really hard to explain. i think it's one of those intangible elements that hollywood is always looking for but can never really find or often doesn't find. what makes a motion picture great. you could have a great cast, a great script, you could have, you know, a great director, great cinematography, but the

film could still fall flat. there's many cases of that that have happened in the history of hollywood. for some reason, perhaps it was the timing, the moment in history, just the way everything came together, noah eisenberg, who wrote the book "we'll always have "casablanca"" basically said it was a miracle. you look at the production and how it came together, it pretty much was. it could have been a film that was easily, you know, looked over by audiences, but it didn't. it resonated and it hit all the key elements, all the heart strings, pulled all the heart strings that were necessary for it to become successful and then to become a classic that is still relevant today. >> humphrey boeing rt, ingrid bergman, it first hat no chemistry at all.

that's phrase you used. impossible to believe as you watch the film scene by scene. how did they get the chemistry, how did it evolve and change, and why didn't they get along at first? >> they were a-list actors and knew they had to do their jobs. i think someone with, you know, even today, bogart is still regarded as one of the top actors in hollywood on many lists. he ranks right up near the top. bergman was just, you know, beautiful and could throw herself into a role so much. regardless of what was going on with the script at the time, i think they recognized that they had a job to do and were going to do the best they possibly could. and i think as it developed, and bogart -- you could see there's a come of places early on in the film where bogart seems a little off base at times where, you know, especially in the opening scenes where he's remembering

back to paris and so forth, that he's a little bit unsure of himself. but then he starts to warm into it and becomes really convinced that he is the spiteful lover there that you see at that scene where he's drinking at the bar and all the towns she has to walk into mine. >> let me ask you this, so many of us saw peter jackson's "get back" over thanksgiving and the christmas holiday season. and there was a turning point where this disaster turned into magic, music, musical magic and it was when they went from tweaking them over the abby road, over to apple studios. billy preston came in, the second he started playing, everybody started smiling and you're like, okay, that's where the magic began. talk about "casablanca." it didn't make sense to the

actors. they had no chemistry. this looked like it was going to be a disaster. what was the turning point in the making of this film where everybody around the set understood they were creating a classic? >> well, i don't think they ever really realized this was going to be a classic. i think they felt like they had a good film going into it. i think it's with most things on any project, like when you're working closely with something, you hope it's good, you think it's good, but you don't know how the audience will react to it. that's the big key with something like this. i think it started to mesh. a lot of what made this movie start to come together i think was the characters that they had in the smaller characters they had. a lot of these people were refugees, and they -- escaping nazi germany as it was at the time. and they weren't just playing a part. this was real life to them.

these people had gotten away from europe and what was happening in germany, and they felt it emotionally. i think that emotion carries out throughout the film that you begin to feel it and see bogart's character evolving from the hard-bitten cynical bar keep into somebody who is very patriotic and wants to do his duty. you know, this movie mirrors what we were asked to do at the time in the country, which was sacrifice. that it came together in such a brilliant way is sheer miracle, just beauty, serendipitous. >> dave, than you so much. i'll be watching it tonight. we appreciate you being there. by the way, you look at the

cinematography, and you can see spielberg went to school on lawrence of arabia and casablanca. >> those classic shots with the light and the slats and that santa monica airport, that famous scene. president biden heads to new york to meet with mayor eric adams. we'll talk with the mayor tomorrow on "morning joe." willie? >> we close this morning with the breaking news, a u.s. counterterrorism mission in syria that took out the leader of isis. the white house released this photo from the situation room. according to nbc news, the terrorist leader exploded a bomb that killed him and members of his own family as u.s. special forces moved in. all americans returned safely from the operation, thank goodness. president biden will speak about the mission just about 30 minutes from now, perhaps, with some more details. chris jansing has the latest on this breaking news and all the morning developing stories. she picks up our coverage in 90 seconds. e picks up our coverage e picks up our coverage seconds.

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i'm chris jansing if for stephanie ruhle. it is thursday, february 3rd. brand-new satellite images reveal vladimir putin expanding his military presence on the ukrainian border. this move coming hours after president biden announced thousands of u.s. troops would be moved into the region. plus, later this hour, president biden heads to the big