saturdays and sundays, 6:00 to 8:00 p.m. eastern. "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. hey, joy. >> how are you doing? thank you so much. have a fantastic evening. >> thank you. all right, good evening, everyone. we begin tonight with three big stories. the demonstrate that joe biden returning to his foreign and domestic policy wheel house after a tough first year as president, which his priorities reflected a different politician many of us have come to know. first, an overnight u.s. military raid in syria that led to the death of the leader of isis, who detonated a bomb inside of a building that killed himself and members of his family, rather than be taken alive. after the raid, joe biden issued this statement. >> last night's operation took a major terrorist leader off the battlefield and sent a strong

message to terrorists around the world, we will come after you and find you. >> we also saw today biden bidening on the domestic front, to discuss gun violence with mayor eric adams, who described himself as a brooklyn biden. it was a symbolic meeting, down to its location at nypd headquarters. >> the answer is to not to defund the police, but to give you the tools, the training, the funding to be partners, to be protectors. >> we're going to provide funding for cities and states to put more police officers in the places we need them. >> it was a meeting of like minds on gun crime. two democratic executive leaders who rejected the defund the police movement, while pledging to address criminal justice and police reform while on the campaign trail. let's face it, this is a comfortable place for joe biden. a fundamentally centrist politician who wrote the

controversial 1994 crime bill. lately, he's spending time tackling issues he spent his entire career covering. you can see that too in his approach with russian president vladamir putin, which brings us to the third story, the ongoing diplomatic challenge with russia. and the former chairman of the foreign senate relations committee -- >> there will be enormous consequences if he were to go in and invade, as he could, the entire country, or a lot less than that, as well. or russia, not only in terms of economic consequences and political consequences, but it will be enormous consequences worldwide. >> it was a big day for biden. a day that also put into sharp focus where the president's comfort level lies. a return to those '90s era tough on crime policies, national security issues, and a vow to hunt down the terrorists, gun

reform and further funding the police, universal pre-k and college lone forgiveness remain on ice. this is biden operating in the country and the world right now. in the end, this is who joe biden is. joining me now, christina greer from fordham university. david rothbun, and mike memily, white house correspondent and what we call the biden whisperer. you've been covering joe biden for a long time. mike, i feel like this is vintage biden today. these issues feel like vintage biden things. would you read it that way? >> yeah, joy, you really set this up very well in terms of the -- all the challenges that are coming together for joe

biden at once and how he's dealing with them. i think the common refrab is -- refrain is balance. he's been trying to offer a model to democrats how to balance being tough on crime, crime is going to be a big issue in the midterm elections, especially if republicans have their say. but also to do what he did, which is surround himself with law enforcement at nypd headquarters. but then go to queens where they're dealing with some of the root causes, rehabilitation for formally incarcerated individuals. one of the things that joe biden considered one of his biggest accomplishments, the crime bill, was used against him in the elections. it caused him to move a bit into the criminal justice reform. george floyd for sure had him turn the knob a little bit more. he knows that midterm elections will be won and lost in suburban districts where this fear of crime will be parallel. so he was happy to join arms

with mayor adams. when you look at the foreign policy challenges he's facing, he had to make a tough decision on a raid in syria today, whether to do a drone strike or to go in with special forces. he made the calculated risk, especially because of the cost to civilians. he saw obama go through that. the most interesting one is russia. biden is somebody who has always operated based on personal relationships. he tried to build a personal relationship with vladamir putin in geneva this summer, but it's been interesting as he's been navigate thing crisis, he says he doesn't even know that putin's own closest advisers know what he's doing. so he's been operating based on the relationships he has to find the right path forward. that's been preparing for a military option. >> that's interesting. david, you had a lengthy thread that a lot of people have read

about biden's foreign policy. one of the key selling points of biden as a commander in chief, we don't talk a lot about foreign policy in these debates, in the presidential debates. he's always touted his own foreign policy acumen, and between just putting his foot down and saying we're getting out of afghanistan and taking the heat for the way that ended, but being willing and understanding putin and dealing him in a way that does seem to be backing putin down and learning a little bit, not doing the drone strike, which is a really big issue and really moral issue and doing it another way that gets the same results. so really sort of vintage biden stuff. talk about what you make of the way he's particularly foreign policy issues are playing out for him this week. >> i think you summed it up really well. you know, in recent memory, the

president, who had the most foreign policy experience, was george h.w. bush. joe biden has three times as much as foreign policy experience as george h.w. bush had coming in. he's been doing foreign policy at a fairly high level for half a century. it shows, it matters. he's handling an extremely complicated situation with russia and ukraine, extremely well. talking to all of the allies, maintaining nato cohesion, which is not easy. it's like hurting cas -- herding cats sometimes. he's being tougher on putin than barack obama was with crimea. and i think you make a really important point here, you know, with regard to the syria action,

he is sending a message. we're still engaged, we're still going to go after terrorists. we've got the number one and two guy in isis in this. and we learn from our experience. and i think the final point i would make is, not only is biden hitting his stride, biden's team is hitting their stride. because you can't handle russia, ukraine, syria, iran negotiations, rebuilding or building for the first time a security structure in the asia-pacific, without a big team, and that's where we are right now. >> and it is sort of reminding people of the competency, you know, this is one of the big selling points. this is a guy who has a core competency on particular things, particularly foreign policy, and also that he can learn. doing a drone strike would have been a disaster, at least for his base. i do feel like eric adams is in

a similar lane. he nicknamed himself biden from brooklyn. that's true. and you have a great piece that talks about eric adams and the kind of politician he is, which is very to biden. somebody who has had to appeal to a base that is, you know, largely african-american, which tends to be truly left of where he is, but also older democrats who, you know, people may not like it, but the sort of middle through line of democratic politics are these somewhat older voters, consistent voters, black and white, but who are much more centrist than the progressives that are coming up, and that are really sort of taking over the party in a big way nationally, ideal logically. that's not eric adams. talk about how he's navigating that. >> you have a base of the democratic party, which is african americans, both on a national level and in new york. but we know that there are several shades of blue within the democratic party.

so as we talk about defunding the police, which is something that is very attractive to progressive voters, they may be a loud faction, but they're not the largest faction. in new york and across the country, a lot of people support police officers, not just in uniform, but civilian whols rely on police departments for their sources of employment and/or unions. so this idea that you could take money away from that very large paramilitary organization is not something that's attractive to people on an economic level. but it's something that biden and adams and other black mayors are trying to grapple with. we want safe streets, but we don't want our children stopped and frisked for nothing. there has to be a middle ground. we've seen it in other communities. why can't we figure out the same sort of policy perspectives in a lot of black and latino communities? so the idea that biden came to new york to start a long-term

conversation, not just with eric adams, but with governor hochul. so this is going to have to be a local, state, and national conversation if we're going to get under the threat of violence, whether real or perceived. but it has to be in conjunction with community efforts and more money for education, and housing, and rebuilding the social safety net that democrats like to do, and republicans come into power and rip it up and democrats have to come back and rebuild it. >> it is the circle of life in politics. i want to bring you back in here, mike. the working class joe model of joe biden, i think it bleeds over into all of this. a lot of people forget that one of the last working class pension jobs are the police, right? a cop. so the police are more racially diverse than people tend to sort of look at. there are more eric adams than you might think in the department. so biden's attempt to appeal to

the working class, the military, again, there is an officer class, and there's a working class part of it, too. so biden seems to be narrow casting a lot of what he's doing to a certain kind of working class voter, and, you know, who might be mad at him when he tries to do things that are progressive, that are really super popular with the majority of the country but he can't get passed because of people like joe manchin. >> i've been covering joe biden a long time. he grew up in a neighborhood where everyone either went to become a firefighter, a cop, or a priest. as he often then delivers the punchline, i wasn't qualified to do any one of those things. one of the reasons he's had such a tight relationship with law enforcement in his career is because he relates so much to those as people he grew up with and who are working class and who -- what their wants and needs are, are much more complex than what we give credit for. joy, i want to offer this note,

which is two years ago tonight, do you remember what it was? the iowa caucuses. doesn't it seem like a lifetime away? >> that was 137 years ago. [ laughter ] >> and do you remember what happened that night? we don't know who won, but we know that joe biden lost. he came in fifth. part of the argument that biden advisers were making at the time is you all are paying too much attention to progressive voices on twitter, to the loud parts of the constituency. they placed their bets on the black populations in states like south carolina that are like wilmington, delaware, but the communities like new castle, county. that was the formula for joe biden to win. delaware was a blue state now, but it was a purposed and even red state in the '70s and '80s.

he tries to make all his policy choices through those lenses. african american voters and suburban voters. i think that's what you see him, as he's setting the table for democrats in the midterm election year. kitchen table economic issues and being on the right side of law enforcement and crime issues, as well. and that's where the midterm elections are won and lost. suburban districts, as well. >> i'm glad you said that, including the jim clyburn type voters. that's still part of the base of the party. so there's a big argument what we need to do on things like police reform, because there are serious changes that need to be made. but don't count on him going out on a limb. today would have been beau biden's 53rd birthday, so this has been a difficult day in a lot of ways for joe biden. christina, david, and mike, probably the most expert voice on joe biden that there is, thank you for joining us tonight. up next on "the reidout,"

rudy giuliani is a key player in the plot to overturn the election. so why would a major tv network put him on a game show? if missouri lawmakers get their way, the mccloskeys could have killed every protestor that walked past their house and faced no legal repercussions. that is messed up. and a cartoon character is tonight's absolute worst. they are more like the flintstones. "the reidout" continues after this. flintstones. "the rdoeiut" continues after "the rdoeiut" continues after this we handle your insurance. all you have to do is schedule delivery. go to capsule.com to get started in 15 seconds today. (burke) with farmers auto multi-policy discount, the more policies you have with us, the more you could save on your auto insurance. (man) hey, hon! (wife) hi, honey! (man) like what? (burke) well, you'd get a discount for insuring your jet skis... and boat...rv...life... ...home and more.

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okay. filed under, i can't believe i'm reporting this to you. but deadline is reporting that two judges walked off the set of "the masked singer" after rudy giuliani was revealed as one of the masked characters. this is the same show that forced its viewers watch sarah palin singing "baby got back" in a bear costume.

cannot believe this has to be said on tv. but it appears to be a new low for the show. while rudy giuliani's clown show personality might fit perfectly with the campy singing competition, it's a lot more serious than that. while it may have been funny and fun to mock him for his national hair dye incident, or for booking four seasons land scaping instead of the real thing, he was doing all of that while leading president trump's effort to stage a coup. starting by spearheading the pressure campaign to get ukraine to investigate biden. something he's still under investigation for. after the election, he embarked on a media tour, schilling fake election fraud, which he's shown zero remorse for. no matter how embarrassing it's been for him personally. he said in a deposition he didn't have the time and it's not his job to check to see if everything he was saying was true. we learned recently he carried out multiple insidious plots directing the former president to ask the department of homeland security if it would --

if it could legally take control of voting machines in key swing states. he led the effort to get seven states to put forth fake lectors, which we're learning more about, now that "the new york times" has obtained two new memos that giuliani use in that scheme. they argued that their real deadline was not december 14th, but january 6th, when congress would meet to certify the results. with me now is the adviser to the dnc. kirk, rudy giuliani is ridiculous. there's this sort of notorious video, let's just show it. this is him playing around and goofing around with donald trump back in the year 2000. this was his mayor press robes. he is a foolish man, that does foolish stuff with other foolish people like trump.

but that idiotsy overtakes what is seriously dangerous about him, both when he was mayor and sending the police out to stalk black people and now he's trump's legal eagle. your thoughts? >> well, joy, i think that this speaks to a much broader problem that we have right now with our culture and with the role that people who have platforms, who have programs, shows, networks, their role and responsibility to the public at large, when you normalize someone who is one of the architects of what turned out to be a domestic terrorist attack on the united states capitol on january 6th, when you normalize someone who was helping swing the wrecking ball to try to destroy democracy as we know it, that is a very dangerous precedent to face. this isn't just like joe rogan and spotify. joe rogan, who never has been in a government job, who hasn't advised any elected officials and not presidents, this is a guy, rudy giuliani, who sat

shotgun to the president of the united states as he tried to overturn a free and fair election. his henchman, his number one person. and you try to normalize that by giving him a spot on a game show where people are going to laugh at him and see him as more of an enter tamtd figure an what he is, a dangerous person who acted like a traitor towards the united states of america. >> let me just play a little bit. this is rudy giuliani and his unraveling theorys after the election. take a look. >> the call for joe biden, who was it called by? oh, my goodness. all the networks. wow! all the networks. we have to forget about the law. judges don't count. this is real. it is not made up. there's nobody here that engages in fantasies.

if we're wrong, we will be made fools of. but if we're right, a lot of them will go to jail. [ applause ] so let's have trial by combat. >> that was on january 6th shortly before the goons invaded the capitol with a noose to hang the vice president of the united states. i think you made a good point, kirk. this is a sinister figure, not a person that should be normalized if a game show type television show. and i guess that's why those two celebrity judges walked off, because this is somebody who engaged in a serious criminal conspiracy to steal an election. it's shocking, but not surprising that he is still treated like he's some formal guy that you can book to sing songs. it is outrageous. your thoughts? >> again, i have to applaud

first of all, robin thicke and ken jong for reacting the way they did. it's the only way any decent human being would react to that kind of revelation. they should be furious at the producers of the show, at the network who anows this to happen, that someone like this is given this type of position. imagine if, after 9/11, some game show gave a position to one of the architects to that terrorist attack. to me, what happened on january 6th is on par with that. it's that severe. it's that dangerous. in fact, it's even more dangerous when you look at the erosion of democracy that these forces, led by trump and rudy giuliani, are still trying to perpetrate on our country right now. it's not like they stopped, that there was a hiatus. this is an active an ongoing effort on their part that they never relented on, and you're going to reward that with a platform, with exposure, with recasting him as a cartoon

character, someone that shouldn't be worried about? he doesn't deserve that. >> you though the qanon shaman is going to get on "dancing with the stars" when he gets out of prison. this is people who acted against our democratic interests. i think the other issue that i would love you to get into, this guy is still under investigation. i'm not sure how it's possible for him to be able to do this stuff, and to do these fun time things. he's still got to answer for the things he might have done that were illegal. >> yeah, i think there needs to be, you know, a bit of a colonoscopy over how the hell did this happen in the first police? who made the decision? who green lit it. who thought that putting entertainment value above our democracy was a good trade to make? i'm so sick of seeing these figures from the trump world,

okay, we're going to make money off of this and get exposure and to hell with the rest of us and democracy and they act like they're not responsible for the type of wrath that is going to bring on all of us, when you green light something like this, you are responsible for what happens after, and you are part and complicit, because you are endorsing that person when you give them that type of spot. >> yeah. and one wonders when the january 6th commission starts doing live hearings, whether that will get the same kind of network exposure for us to find out what happened. let me go back to the democrats here, because this is, you know, the january 6th commission has a job it has to do. but i am wondering if democrats are communicating what you said properly, because you had joe biden go out and call mitch mcconnell his friend. it is a biden-y thing to do to be mr. bipartisan, but i wonder if that alarm you're communicating is being

communicated from the top in the democratic party. >> i look at someone like jaime harrison, who has a very clear-eyed vision of what this republican party is capable of, having run against lindsey graham, who is kind of the poster child for the depravity of the republican party. having someone like him in this position, that has the ear of the white house and the ear of the president, who understands better than anybody firsthand what it's like to go up against this party. i'll tell you, joy, we've seen republicans thumping their chest at the idea of being empowered and hauling up hunter biden for investigations and doing all kinds of committee hearings, targeting the biden family. i think the president is well aware now that if all the people two have the most to lose by republicans gaining power, it's him and his family. >> i hope he doesn't think mitch mcconnell will be there for him if that happens. kirk, thank you very much. appreciate you. up next, are you ready for this? a new conservative proposal being dubbed the make murder

legal act. tries to redefine what it means to murder someone. who do you think could benefit from this proposal? hint, it is exactly who you think it is. we'll be right back. think it is. we'll be right back. hey hun hey, get your own vapors relax with vicks vapobath or with vicks vaposhower. take a soothing vicks vapo moment wherever you chose.

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this is one of the most offensive pieces of legislation i have ever seen in my life. umm, it's -- it's a personal attack on me. it's a personal attack on people who look like me. umm, i try to think of words to describe it, and the only word i can come up with is this bill is complete bull [ bleep ]. >> well said. kyle rittenhouse, george zimmerman, all claimed

self-defense in their trial. a new bill would not only call those murders justified but prohibit police from even detaining those suspected of violence, as long as they claim self-defense. it's being dubbed by opponents as the make murder legal act, by putting the burden of proof on prosecutors to disprove self-defense claims, something difficult to do where the only witness could be the person who was killed. joining me now is britney cunningham and paul butler, former federal prosecutor. let me read a little bit of this law, which perhaps appropriately is bill number 666. l number 666

a p >> as expected, mark mccloskey praised the bill. it means he and his wife could have been in their slippers and shoot every black lives matter person who walked by legally and not be detained. britney, as somebody who has been out there in the streets protesting, taking that risk for yourself, what would this kind of a law mean to people who want to march for justice and what does it mean in your view, particularly for black people of missouri? >> joy, i'm so glad you reminded us that the mccloskeys were front row to testify on behalf of pass thing bill. this was, of course, the couple made famous by stepping outside

of their restricted mansion in st. louis, glocks in tow, pulling their guns out on unarmed black protestors. to people like them, black skin is weapon enough, and this is precisely the problem. this is what this bill is designed to do, to legitimize seeing blackness as a weapon in and of itself and justify our murders. it is meant to terrorize us and frighten us away from using our voices. i want to set the historical contest. back in 1950, missouri had the second highest number of lynchings outside of the deep south. so when folks talk about making america great again, that's the kind of missouri tradition they want to return to, days when you could lynch or murder black folks and there would be no retribution for it. that's not hyperbole, that is reality. >> and i can't get around that. this is fugitive slave act

territory. this is legalizing lynching. couple that with trying to neuter and castrate the feds. here is another piece of this, in 2021, missouri passed a law that prevents local law enforcement from working with federal agents on gun cases and imposes a $50,000 penalty on any local police department that tries to enforce federal firearms laws. so what they're saying is, local law enforcement can't even talk to the feds about gun crimes. but you can shoot and kill anyone you like and say self-defense and you're good. >> yeah, this is like a standard brown law on steroids. it's like a gun for nuts law on steroids. it would allow murderers to go free, and empower trigger happy vigilantes like the mcclowekes

and kyle rittenhouse. anyone who kills in self-defense is presumed to act lawfully, except if you use it against a police officer, then you go to jail. what a clear demonstration who this law protecting and who doesn't. the only right thing about this law is the title, bill 666. it advances the devil's work. >> sit a lynch law. even police are not enthusiastic about it, britney. because yes, you can -- you can be arrested if you shoot a police officer, but that's only if they're self-identified and if they identify they're a police officer. again, if you're an undercover officer in missouri, be aware that you can get shot, too. but set that aside for a moment. i wonder if you can tease out for us a little more about missouri. you started something i would love for you to continue. missouri is thought of as not

the south. this is a state that has a lot of active klan activity after the civil war. this is not a state that is not the south. it is so similar, sort of culturally. and i wonder for black missourians, what does it mean to live in a state like that? >> joy, you are right. the ferguson uprising is part of what shocked the world because of things that had been an undercurrent. you had to cross the mississippi liver into the free territory of illinois. missouri was a state where the same state legislature made it illegal to teach black children how to read or write, whether enslaved or free. this is a place across the river the massacre of east st. louis trounced a nearly all-blacktown and saw a number of black people murdered. this is a place where the

continual terror of black and marginalized people even continues to be celebrated today. the veiled prophet society was created to intimidate, and that is a society that has deeply racist roots. so these things are not off spoken about in missouri. until the last few years, which is likely seen across the last few years, we have seen police stop being polite and start getting real about racism. missouri has been at the vanguard of that. >> i get they're going to make it el hill to teach any of what you said in schools. that's the other trends, too, to hide the past. while we are talking about this, it is not just missouri. let's go to the officer, jason van dyke, who killed laquan mcdonald in chicago to go to another state in the midwest. he's free. he left prison. he served less than half of his

sentence. he is a free man. you were covering that. i wonder what you think of that, what such a brief, brief time in prison for having killed a teenager. >> joy, when they sentence people, they are thinking about retribution, and a deterrence, that a message should be sent. three years for second degree murder doesn't satisfy any objectives. chicago's mayor rahm emanuel failed laquan mcdonald, the prosecutor failed laquan mcdonald. chicago's then police chief failed laquan mcdonald. if there's any good news, they're all now out of office because of their dereliction of duty. the criminal legal system is still failing. >> everything old and new again in american history, which is

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designed to make you be quiet. >> i think it's safe to say -- but this fixation on making politics more manly goes back to the '80s about democrats being the mommy party. but a cadre of trumpists have turned it into a full-on rallying croix. like madison hawthorne, whose claim that society is trying demasculate men. or endorsing violence by praising kyle rittenhouse. and who can forget senator josh holly, who has made defending masculinity his entire m.o. he argued that after being told that manhood is the problem, and

it's driving men to pornography and video games. sir, me thinks you doth protest too much. he doubled down, accusing democrats of this. but holly is just using the cheat code to exploit while male grievance. the same kind of macho cosplay that holly was egging on, on january 6th. meanwhile, last night, tucker carlson, who is the literal avatar of the manly man -- just joking. he's the opposite. seemed to take it all to heart. arguing that strong leaders, the kind without any maternal instincts, are under attack. >> creative masculine energy is the essential quality of any civilization. it's how we got civilization in the first place.

but increasingly, boisterous maculiity is suppressed to make way for a cake caretaker class. >> not giving a crap about your fellow humans and making sure that government leaves them to suffer and die turns you into the incredible hulk. can i stop rolling my eyes now? so the warped conservative obsession with their own version of masculinity is, well, it's tonight's absolute worst. what does this mean for our country? and that is up next. stay with us. next. next. stay with use your insurance. all you have to do is schedule delivery. go to capsule.com to get started in 15 seconds today.

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example of conservative want to be macho men in action on january 6th, when the mob fueled by grievance and allies lee lead siege to our u.s. capitol. in fact, of those arrested for their involvement in the

attacks, more than 85% were men. and if you are wondering where they got to just stupid dangerous idea? >> if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? seriously. okay, just knock the hell, i promise you i will pay for the legal fees, i promise. >> in the good old days, this doesn't happen because they used to treat them very, very rough and when they protested once, you know, they would not do it again so easily. any guy that can do a body slam is my guy. you'll never take back our country with weakness, you have to show strength and you have to be strong. >> joining me now is chris into may, author of jesus and john wayne, how white evangelicals corrupted a fait and fractured a nation. thank you so much for being here, miss -- and i think it is ironic that the person that i'm showing leading into talk with you is donald trump but weirdly enough,

trump has become particularly white conservative evangelicals, you know, that is their guy. like, 80% voted for him, they are devoted for him, they are his base. please explain what this sort of weird conception of masculinity is doing inside of the evangelical world. >> yeah, on the surface, it seems like a contradiction. these are family values of evangelicals who are trump's stalwart supporters and they purport to follow the jesus of the gospels, jesus who is a suffering servant, who commands his followers to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies and to love their neighbors. and yet, they are his strongest supporters. they constitute his dependable base. and that is because if you look back, you can see how, within conservative white evangelicalism, they have overtime embrace a kind of lawyer masculinity as their

ideal of christian manhood, somebody who is rugged, who is tough, who will protect christianity, protect christian america, and frankly, do what needs to be done. >> yeah, i it's like a crusades version of christianity rather than, i think they would despise actually historical jesus because they thought he was being too soft. they turn the other cheek stuff they would find ridiculous. you know, jeff charlotte describe this as sort of wanting a wolfgang of saying that they want somebody who is root, crude, and horrible because he is going to be, like, a warrior for the fate. they believe that jesus favors strong man who built his kingdom and forget about piety, that's the way he kind of describe it. but i wonder, is it really just a very fancy religious cover for men who just don't want to help their wives with the baby and really just want women to shut up and make them a sandwich? and they are trying to sort of cloak it in with -- but at the end of the day, they just want to change diapers, they just want to march around and do, like, cosplay like they are in a war. >> well, that may be a factor

for some men who are embracing this. i do hear the sandwich joke, not so much a joke in certain evangelical spaces. but it is also their faith and what you can see is in the last several decades, christian publishers have published book upon book, championing this kind of rugged christian manhood. and yes, they look more to heroes, hollywood heroes like mel gibson's william wallace from the movie brave heart as their ideal christian man more than they look to jesus christ. and so, this is been cultivated in religious spaces. it has been part of, it's been preach from pulpits, and it has really kind of moved to the heart of evangelical identity for a pretty sizeable swath of conservative evangelicals. >> yeah, can we just show -- cawthorn? this man is a, -- i have to at this is funny. i've is it's like my dream come true. he is punching a dead tree. this is ridiculous.

it's funny, it's laughable to watch him do this, this is a joke. but i mean, there is the sense of, like, i need to do violence to something, i need to, like, donald trump jr. goes and hunts beautiful creatures in africa and just sits on them as if that is somehow masculine. it is perverse. but i wonder if there is a counter surveilling trend anywhere in the faith that is talking about a different kind of masculinity that is about caring for people, that is about doing the right thing, because i always thought, you know, manliness really is about being responsible, being a good person. where is that in the masculinity conversation? >> there is certainly that conversation going on. there has been, alongside this and particularly in the 1990s, when we had the promise keepers movement and a lot of talk about servant leadership, and a kinder, gentler version of patriarchy. but that really started to get shoved aside by the end of the 1990s and then september 11th

2001, really brought to the floor this warrior masculinity because when things got tough, you didn't want the kinder, gentler manhood, you needed a guy who would go into the trenches, you needed a firefighter to stand and rescue people. >> yeah and i think you can be both. i mean, firefighters won't rescue people because they give a damn about human beings, right? they are actually great and selfish but they are not being jerks, they're actually being selfless. can you talk just very briefly, this is about white masculinity because this ain't about, i mean, jason would lock thinks he's on a team but this is really about white evangelical masculinity, not everybody getting the same deal. >> yes, yes. and you can see going back in time that this particularly militant conception of what it is to be a christian man emerged in the 1960s and 1970s. in reaction to the feminist movement, in reaction to the anti-war movement, but also in part -- the civil rights movement.

and all three of those cases, white patriarchal authorities could kind of set the world back in order. >> and by the, way that shoot a man down lynching law in missouri, that is coming from that same space as well. christian you may, thank you so much. that is -- thank you s much that >> tonight on all in. >> he's a nice guy. >> a new republican witness test in the age of trump and why they're all the lies of the rigged election could come back to haunt them. >> it's not that sided, this is the key. it's not decided. >> then a brand-new avenue for a coup is uncovered, new reporting a proposed plan to use national intelligence data to steal the election, as the president decides the supreme court nominee, a crucial history for history lesson. >> the irony is that the supreme court is at the center very