hi there, everyone. happy friday. 4:00 in new york. in the warped disinformation add

led mind of today's gop capitol insurrection? that was good. justified. in the disgraced twice impeached ex-president that tried to overturn the will of the american voters deserved to be what he is, the defacto leader of the gop why that is why republican national committee today at the winter meeting in salt lake city overwhelmingly voted to pass a resolution to describe the ings recollection and the vents up to it as legitimate political discourse and decided to censure congresswoman cheney and congressman kinzinger for participating in the january 6 select committee investigation which is of course deadly serious to investigate every aspect of donald trump's coup plot. it made it clear if it warrants

referrals to the doj they'll make the referrals. the resolution is a perfect encapps lags of the reality that the republican party lives and breathes. in it makes clear going on the record coming out of the closet as the gop, as the pro insurrection party. the sen sure language like this. quote representatives have engaged in actions in their positions as members of the january 6 select commit tee not befitting republican members of congress. adding this, representatives cheney and kinzinger are participating in a democrat-led persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse and code now the republican party line on the insurrection. that is how the party is going to describe a domestic terror attack in which serve people

lost their lives and more than 140 police officers injured or maimed. take a listen to the testimony of the police officers who survived that day. >> i, too, was crushed by the rioters. i could feel myself losing okay oxygen and thought to myself this is how i will die. >> could be stripped of and killed with my final. i was electrocuted again and again and again. with a taser. >> i was defenseless and sustained injury from the mob. directly in front of me a man seized the opportunity of vulnerability and beat my head with the gas mask. >> a black officer said he was confronted by insurrectionists in the capitol who told him put

the gun down and we'll show you what kind of [ bleep ] you really are. >> all of that -- this is important -- all of that is what the republican party describes as part of legitimate political discourse. here we are. nbc news report that is the resolution and the idea to punish them came straight from the highest levels of trump world. the measure was submitted by david bossie. his initial proposal called on the rnc to endorse efforts by congressional republicans to expel cheney and kinzinger. "the washington post" said that the rnc is taking the step of endorsing and supporting a primary challenger. the leaders of the wyoming gop signed a special letter to

financially support harriet hag marn, a challenger why the letter recognized the presumptive nominee for the see. this move by the party says much more about the republicans than cheney and kinzinger. kin zing irsaid my fellow republicans have chosen to sen sure two lifelong members of the party for simply unholding the oaths of office. they hinder the idea to see clear eyed. from liz cheney, stands out at it's a stinning indictment of the leadership. the leaders of republican party have made themselves willing hostages to a man who admits he tried to overturn a presidential

election and pardon insurrections. history will be their judge. i will never stop fighting for the constitutional republic. no matter what. mike pence serving today as the fly in the ointment of the pro insurrection position said, no, he didn't have the power to overturn the election. listen. >> i heard this week that president trump said i had the right to overturn the election. president trump is wrong. i had no right to overturn the election. the presidency belongs to the american people, and the american people alone. and frankly, there is no idea more un-american than the notion any one person chooses the american president. >> the republican party going all in on the inrecollection as

the vice president until a walk back appears to call donald trump un-american in the conduct. jonathan carl is here. author of "betrayal." shows like pence final he read it. amy carney is back. strategist steve schmidt joins me. >> the resolution from the rnc is an extraordinary document start to finish. at the very beginning it starts with a preamble saying whereas the primary mission of the republican party to elect republicans who support the united states constitution. that's the starting point and then end by saying kinzinger and cheney to be sen sured because the behavior destructive to the

house the republican party and our republic. so their behave by helping to take the lead to investigate the attack on the congress is destructive to the institution of the u.s. house of representatives. the juxtaposition with mike pence coming out and for the first time uttering if words or the first time i heard uttering the words donald trump is wrong. just finally coming out and saying it. donald trump is wrong. from the loyal vice president. the most loyal person to donald trump in that entire administration until the day of january 6th is -- it's an extraordinary moment in all of this. as you know when i interviewed donald trump just two months after he left the white house and said to me when i asked him, you know, if he was concerned

about mike pence and what about those that were chanting on january 6th hang mike pence, he said to me, the exact quote that i said. they're chanting hang mike pence. his next words are it's common sense, jon. that interview was last year. in my book. we haven't heard condemnation of any significance from anybody in the leadership of the republican party to those words from donald trump and yet we have this condemnation here. extraordinary. >> take me inside the reporting is sort of torquing up the volume out of trump world. the members have been identified that are of interest to liz cheney. i think she knows who was talking to donald trump that day. jim jordan and kevin mccarthy. you have also got the specter of

senior advisers to the vice president. we don't know what they said but in the room and there's no suggestion from anyone on that committee -- i talked to one of them yesterday. they they have been stonewalling. is this where the rubber was going to meet the road for pence? >> yeah. you know, you have seen mark short pence's chief of staff testify and the counselor in the vice president's office. there's two most important advisers as vice president come forward and by all accounts coop rating. not talking about conversations that either had directly with donald trump. that would fall under executive privilege. a question is does pence himself

end up cooperating with this committee? i actually doubt it. i don't think it will come to the point where we see pence himself testifying and maybe after you have seen the words today maybe they don't need his testimony. it is clear what his position is and clear the pressure he was under donald trump. >> the idea that some point all the questions that have been answered either from a podium stage or the testimony from the 475 witnesses is something that will perhaps be clearer at the time when it's known what pence will do. steve, i can see the dogs in the background if they'll let us borrow you. i want to bring you in on this -- it is not a split screen. one screen. the republican party. it is what jon's saying. the language of the censure of cheney and kinzinger is

noteworthy in writing. we are the party of the lie about the insurrection. it's not a lie being told by the left or the media. ted cruz called it a domestic terrorist attack. >> this is a moment of -- another moment irnd say of rev lugsz. of the republican party as an institution through the elected leaders revealing what it's become and what it has become is an autocratic vehicle to advance an autocratic agenda that is controlled by donald trump in this country. there's a couple of remarkable aspects to it. is it fair to call this stalinesque? in its rhetoric. currently it is. is it gaslighting on an epic scale? surely it is.

is it a denunciation of the truth? definitely. is it aimed to be a warning that disobedience, that dissent in this movement, this project for the purposes of taking political power in america including at the cost of ending the american experiment -- there is to be no disobedience within that movement and that's a message and a warning to dissenters out there. we see a blossoming of this movement. the revealing of it in full. they keep telling us who they are and this is all part of a movinging on event. this is very deeply linked to annuity gingrich saying that political opponents should be locked up. i would say this academically. what's the journey from the end

of the obama administration until that moment where you start talking about locking up political opponents or from locking up political opponents to an executioner's wall? what's the further journey? when we look at this in its totality it's staring us in the face. we have an autocratic movement that's headed while former president of the united states that's completely consumed one of the two political parties that's abandoned any pretext of the fidelity to the american experiment that both political parties are supposed to be in the business of perpetuating to make the union fairer, better. in an appalling moment in american life and the life of the modern republican party. but again, another reveal

including the reference to the democrat party. which, of course, is the democratic party. in the united states. of america. >> a couple of republicans in elected republicans defending cheney and kinzinger. a tweet from senator bill cassidy that voted to convict donald trump. there's another tweet from mitt romney. we wanted to sort of come up with maybe an alternative theory of why they're so mad at liz cheney. >> it kons tutds the gravest violation of oath of office by any president. a former president who provoked a vie lenlt attack on this capitol in an effort to steal the election resumed the aggressive effort to convince americans that the election was

stolen from him. this is a man who don straited he is at rule with the rule of law, willing to blow through every guardrail of democracy. any man to watch television as police officers were being beaten, as his supporters were invading the capitol of the united states is unfit for office and cannot be near the oval office. >> any to watch television as police officers were beaten. only one man. that is what is being described by the most senior official of the rnc rona mcdaniel this way. they crossed the line. they chose to join nancy pelosi and the democrat-led persecution of ordinary citizens that pursued political discourse. we support this resolution.

what is the sort of double speak about? they're mad that liz cheney is telling the truth about donald trump and it happened on live tv. >> right. from a political standpoint no one wants to be making this statement. kevin mccarthy is trying to make the members not be in the headline. they want to keep the focus on democrats, the inflation, the economy. senate leadership tried to make it about biden. but this statement is proof that the party is -- written for the old audience of one. donald trump. this is written because all those clips you played. he is angry at liz cheney because she said that he was -- what he did and the role and not fit to serve in office and this

is not politically helpful to any republicans i have spoken to. mcdaniel is doing this for the old audience of one. only person it helps and proof that the party is his as much as mcconnell and others that want to ignore him. he is very much there. >> there's a piece that's making exactly this point that annie is getting us to. there's a case to be made that trump's influence on the gop faded a bit over time but this is the slightest diminution. he is in control of the republican party. he's intimidated the entire leadership cadre. his control over the content of conservative media grown stronger. $122 million in the bank.

indicating grassroots strength. a majority of republicans believe the 2020 election was stolen from president. half want him to run for president again to reclaim his own. jon karl, i guess you this long enough and see cheney is the underdog. way outside of the republican establishment as a sort of underdog, the underfunded, undersported in a fight against the most sort of figure that looms largest in the gop. how does that sit with her? >> certainly the underdog and not particularly understood funded. she raised several million dollars in the most recent quarter. her re-election campaign in wyoming is going to be an uphill battle. trump is -- now have the institution of the republican party supporting her opponent.

she was just in leadership not that long ago facing a challenge supported by the republican national committee and raises the stakes for that race. what if she wins? the rules for the primary, a late primary in wyoming, it is a plurality. there's the endorsed trump opponent and three other declared candidates in that race. four people challenging her. she could win re-election in wyoming with 30% of the vote. it's not out of the question so there's a danger here for donald trump. not just in that race. i do think that there is some evidence that his hold on the party is -- hold on the party faithful may slightly be

declining. there are several -- i think the fact you see mike pence coming out and is there a censure resolution on mike pence for declaring that president trump is wrong? there are a number of these primary challengers, candidates supported by donald trump around the country that may not win and it isn't the magic touch. it's not looking that way and in alabama in the senate primary. we'll see what happens in the race -- the multiple races in georgia and the primary for the gubernatorial primary in georgia, in arizona. this is a test in the coming months of how strong the grip that trump has on the party. is it total as it seemed today at the rnc meeting or slipping?

>> what does conservative media do with this statement? pence called the plot un-american. there is no idea more un-american than the notion that any one person could choose the american president. donald trump said on sunday mike pence could have overthrown the election. what do you think mike pence is in for publicly and privately in the next few news cycles? >> i would expect that he's capitulate and apologize and make a craven action. i don't think what mike pence said is because he's courageous. i think he's cornered. the chief of staff is going in and telling the truth to the committee and can acknowledge reality and do what he did today or bend to it and destroy himself in the process through

the contradictions and the twists and the degradations that somebody has to go through to remain in good standing within the trump world. one thing we're not talking about which is remarkable with regard to the action by the rnc is to support harriet haggerman on what levels. she is the candidate. what does that mean? the rnc dispensed with the election. that they intend to do away with the voices and the vote of people in wyoming because somebody in bedminster, new jersey, said this is the person who i want to be in the congress from the state of wyoming. that's incredible. it is incredible on a whole lot

of levels. extraordinary as someone who lives in the west from new jersey anybody from bedminster, new jersey, instructing orb telling or ordering or commanding however you wish to phrase it this is the candidate. the other one is gone. it is just an extraordinary moment in this drama with again trump asserting the power that he has. it is not absolute. it is situational. it ebbs, it flows. but donald trump is in command of the american autocratic command lock, stock and barrel. some of the state parties are co-controlled by qanon conspiracy theorists but should donald trump run for the nomination in 2024, he is, of course, going to be the nominee of the party. should the nominee not be donald

trump it is likely to be an amplification of trump, not a pale imitation of someone like desantis. whatever comes next, it is not good. it is dangerous. it is autocratic and hostile to the american experiment and democracy. >> okay. you are sticking around because when we come back there is more on trump's former number two mike pence denouncing the ex-president for saying he could have overturned the election. it comes after the closest advisers have fielded questions now from the 1/6 committee. president biden is saying the economy is making the progress with omicron cases in retreat. more americans are returning to work. the american agenda appearing to be firing on all cylinders.

carrying the momentum through to the mid materials i'm sure they hope. a look at conspiracy theorist michael flynn and the extreme dangerous measures he was willing to go to to steal an election. all those stories and more after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere. well, well, well. look at you. you mastered the master bath. you created your own style. and you - yes, you! turned a sourdough starter into a sourdough finisher. so when you learn your chronic dry eye is actually caused by reduced tear production due to inflammation you take it on, by talking to your eyecare professional about restasis®... which may help you make more of your own tears with continued use twice a day, every day.

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i heard this week that president trump said i had the right to overturn the election. but president trump is wrong.

>> seven long years to hear that. mike pence moments ago in what is the most substantial, full frontal rebuke of donald trump and his scheme to overturn the results of an election he lost. for the first time mike pence, notable because it's pence, saying prurp is wrong. back with jonathan, annie and steve. i want to show you something that congressman raskin said about both the focus on mike pence and his inner circle and the pace of potential prime time hearings for the committee. >> they have sandbagged us enough that it has slowed down the scheduling of hear, and i think it's more likely to be end of april or may. i want to make sure that every substantial subplot to overthrow the 2020 presidential election is fully investigated.

so we really just learned about the subplot campaign to seize election machinery, which is real banana republic stuff why the focused campaign against mike pence is something where we have a lot of information but not complete information. we are hoping to complete that. so i mean, you are right that they're -- there's no exact finish line. but we need to investigate. >> annie, the second and third things there. the first, the timeline appears to have slid before there's public hearings from early in the year to end of april or may. this disclosure. this is a subject of some fantastics "times" reporting. i want to make sure that every subplot is fully investigated. what is your sense of how not

whether they read all the documents they have but the leads it inspired? >> i don't know. i'm not covering that exactly but i will say that in terms of the pence cooperation with the aides coming in, i think it really -- their participation and cooperation mirrors the trajectory of pence's comments of distancing himself from trump and today saying you are wrong. he's not wanted to be in the position he is in today having to make the statement. if you recall a first time he spoke about january 6 after the event is milquetoast saying president trump and i will not see eye to eye on what happened that day and president trump bought him to the moment to make the statement because of trump's statement about pence. the aides, they're not wanting to payment in waltzing in there

but complying with the subpoena. they're not steve bannon but not happily going in there so they're -- pence world is in an awkward position of trying to follow the law and the rules but not particularly wanting to be where they are and not wanting to be in this mode of standing up to donald trump. that is not -- as you said for seven lock years we waited for him to do this. his political future as i heard it described to me is trump lane without the trump crazy. the tweets and making policy on twitter that no one knows about. i could be the policy without that personality and this situation he is in makes that lane nonexistent for him. >> i'm years from the campaign

trail and i never understood that analysis. there's no policy without trump. they made it real. it was just trump. there is no republican party platform rooted in policy, rooted in foreign policy, rooted in a world, economic policy. donald trump scrambled it all. he wasn't for anything. he didn't -- i think steve said this. he was the state and to the base the state was him. i wonder if you can pick up on what annie's talking about. and then short is complying with the subpoenas and most of them i think have before the 1/6 commit tee. none of them are willing but not in violation of the subpoenas. >> they're not fighting jit

they're not engaged in a legal battle to keep from cooperating with the committee. and that's actually true for a number of these witnesses. i know you noticed that kelly mcenany, the uber loyal press secretary who repeated whatever donald trump wanted her to repeat in that job, she turned over the emails and the phone, text messages and did so. she was under subpoena and made no effort to fight that. one of many. it is not just pence's key staff but a number of people. so in answer to the question of what does the committee have and how's it -- how much is it going to reveal, i don't know the full answer to that. none of us do. they have the documents by the national archives. they have the testimony from people that were in the white

house, that were at the trump campaign, supporters who are not fighting it. i think there's a lot more to learn on this. we mentioned the voting machines notion. i reported quite extensively about this effort first to get bill barr to use the justice department to get a hold of these voting machines on the theory they had been used to rig the election and then when barr said no giuliani reaching out to ken cuccinelli and then the thing that stood out to me the loyal enforcer inside the west wing actually called to chad wolf the acting secretary of homeland security and said to him -- i have a very authoritative account of this conversation, this phone call, saying the president is upset. he wants to know why you haven't

taken action to get control of the voting machines. so the committee goes further. that is out there. the committee gets a hold of the texts of the draft executive orders that explain exactly on what authority they were going to try to get the voting machines. there's a lot more to learn even though the broad outlines of what happened were clear really from that day. really from january 6 of last year. >> to anyone paying attention and watching it unfold. we have to leave it there today. it is great to see you. thank you all for starting us off today. the white house is feeling pretty good about the state of the economy in this second year of president biden's presidency. we'll have a chance to check in with the chief of staff of how they plow ahead in 2022. that conversation next. 2022. that conversation next

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surprisingly huge number. a major major economic improvement. the u.s. added 467,000 jobs and the reports got major revisions up 709,000 more jobs than were reported at the time. on top of that, participation in the labor force seems to be recovering. now 62.2%, the highest since the pandemic start jd the news is a welcomed surprise as far as we know to the biden administration as it tackles franlgic matters. the white house warped last week that the numbers measured on the mid-january and omicron just starting to peak in most places and feared it could be low with the pandemic seemingly sidelining millions of workers. cases here at hope are down more than 50% since then at the lowest point since late january. a good day to be the white house chief of staff.

when economic numbers aren't looking you point at what you are doing to get better. let's put them up again. 367,000 jobs added in january and upward revisions for november and december. what's the sense that we were surprised in a good way this month? >> look. i think -- first of all, thank you for having me. we put in place economic policies early 2021. the rescue plan. made in america rule. the infrastructure bill. we're seeing the progress that has all added up to. the largest one-year job growth in the history of this country. almost 7 million jobs in a single year. unemployment rate down more than any other year. child poverty falling.

the choices are starting to have results and delivering for the american people. >> i have a theory that the biden economy is like the rodney dangerfield economy is that it's good but doesn't get the respect. why do you think that is? >> look. i think while the results on the jobs front are very strong and just an incredibly robust economy as the president said it is a start but not the finish. we have to make sure that wages continue to rise. we have to get prices down. look. i know voters are feeling that anxiety coming from the pandemic continuing and seeing stores shot and uncertain about the future and the fact to pay higher prices. inflation is a factor but we have made progress on the jobs front. we are tackling the question of costs. wages are going up. i think people will start to feel the economy more as this sets in. and as they can exhale when they see that we have getting the

pandemic more under control. >> people are mad. i don't know that they can always explain why but a lot of it is at the doorstep of the american president. how do you navigate the pandemic and the president seems to see where the country is. done, fed up. >> of course. i think we are all fed up with the pandemic. we all want it over but that doesn't make it over and what makes it over is doing the things that we are doing in the biden administration. this month as you know making a test, at-home tests easy to get. shipped to you for free. we came in there were zero at-home tests. now we mail out millions and millions every day. made high quality masks available. people can pick them up for free now. and of course we continue to vaccinate millions of americans every week to increase the

protection. we just need to keep doing the right things to fight this pandemic. we need to keep doing the right things. that's why you are seeing the 50 pistons decline in cases we have seep in the past 3 weeks. >> omicron hit on month 11 of the pandemic. is the president angry at the advisers for not having tests stocked? >> i think we were prepared for the omicron wave. we have done a lot to vaccinate people. the fact that we had vaccinated 200 million people fully vaccinated 200 million people before omicron hit is why we were able to get through the past month with a strong jobs report, with a strong economy, without the kind of lockdowns we saw a year ago and schools shutting as they were a year ago. the fact we got through the

hard, hard time so well in terms of not letting omicron destroy the country again as it did as the first wave of covid did shows the progress we made. look. we need to continue to make more progress. we'll be in better shape still if more americaning were vaccinated and boosted and people wore the masks and did testing. >> tell me how the president's feeling about what we know about the -- happening with russia. the sort of michael mcfall calls it coercive diplomacy and moving the troops into the nato allies' countries. >> we have sent a strong message to president putin and the other diplomats from russia if president putin makes this mistake and sends the foess

across the border there will be severe consequences. we engaged in diplomacies to unite our nato allies in presenting that united front to president putin to try to deter the action. if it can't be there will be serious consequences for the actions. as you know we have announced we are moving troops to the eastern countries in nato in europe to make abundantly clear we stand by the allies. i think the united front of the nato alliance is the best thing to do to try to prevent president putin from making a horrific mistake. >> ron klain, thank you so much for spending time with us during busy days. we are grateful. >> thank you for having me. after the break, our friends

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wondering what actually goes into your multi-vitamin. and askat new chapter. keytruda its innovation organic ingredients and fermentation. fermentation? yes, formulated to help your body really truly absorb the natural goodness. new chapter. wellness well done. i can tell you, we have had 25 women of color come before the senate judiciary committee during the first year of the biden administration, and some of the people who are speaking the loudest about not choosing a black woman have never voted for a black nominee. and that's just a fact. i'm sorry to say.

but it is the reality of this year, 2022, in american history. >> tricky things, facts, right? let's bring into our conversation the reverend al sharpton, host of msnbc's "politics nation" and the president of the national action network. robert gibbs is back, msnbc political analyst. we see what's spilling out into the public, but take us behind the scenes for a supreme court selection process. >> yeah, nicole, as you know, lots of vetting, lots of names that are coming forward. you really have to and want to know everything you possibly can about each nominee, going way back and deep into their records. you want to understand what are going to be the highs and lows of that nomination, and then, you know, look, i assume the president will, as he's watched other presidents do, interview these candidates himself, ask them questions about their theory around the law, and then i think by the end of this month, as he's pledged, make an

enormously strong nominee, pick a highly, highly qualified judge to stand before the senate judiciary committee and ultimately the senate to be confirmed to the united states supreme court, so i think it's a big series of moments for this white house. luckily, joe biden, again, was chair of the judiciary committee. ron klain, very skilled and adept at how you get these things done. i think you've got two really good people in charge of an enormously important process for this president. >> rev, have you weighed in with this white house, this administration, with your preference? do you have a preference, anything you want to share with us? >> no, we did not weigh in with a preference. we have weighed in to say that we're glad he kept his commitment. he had said at the debate in south carolina, at the urging of congressman jim clyburn, that he would appoint a black woman. he has now said he's going to do

that. in fact, the morning after, he reiterated that commitment at action network charleston's minister's breakfast so we weighed in to say we're glad he kept his commitment and we want to see someone qualified. i think that the real message is when we hear those that are attacking the president, saying that he was going to appoint a black woman, well, when -- i think it was ronald reagan said he wanted to put a woman on the supreme court, this is not unusual for a president to say, when you're looking at a court that has never had the diversity it should have had, whether it was a woman in the '80s and '90s, whether it's a black woman in 2022, that is to have the court reflect not only what the country looks like but to say that people are qualified to be on the court that may never have come from that demographic. so, are we saying there are no black women that were ever qualified? i think he's repairing an

omission rather than doing something like an affirmative action appointment. >> i don't understand, robert gibbs, why democrats are even taking the debate. donald trump's supreme court picks had more like limits than i think his clubs. they had to be on a list crafted by the federalist society that mitch mcconnell crumbled and carried around in his pocket for the campaign to explain his support for him, and they had to be committed to overturning roe vs. wade. why don't democrats just tell the republicans to back off? >> it's a great question, nicole, and they definitely should. i think dick durbin did in the clip that you played. look, i'd go even a step further. this is, in some ways, a simple process, even as complicated as it can be in making a selection, but without a filibuster and with 50 votes in the senate plus the vice president's tie, all you have to do -- all you have to do is get the democrats to show up and vote for the nominee.

and i know people are probably listening, saying, yeah, but that hasn't been easy in things like build back better. as we know, 42 judicial nominations have come in front of the united states senate. zero is the number of times a democrat has voted against any of those 42 nominees cumulatively. so, i think democrats are on the same page here. i don't think this has to be complicated. this isn't about getting 70 votes or 60 votes or 57. it's about getting 50 votes plus the vice president, get the bible, get the champagne, and get on to the next thing. >> i love how simple it can be. the reverend al sharpton, robert gibbs, thank you so much for suspendeding time with us on a friday. nice to see you both. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a very short break. r of "deadline itwhe house" starts after a very itwhe house" starts after a very short break. your mover, rob, he's on the scene and needs a plan with a mobile hotspot. we cut to downtown, your sales rep

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well, it's a sad day that

someone who held for a short time a national security position now in this country, but he pled guilty to a felony, and his partner, donald trump, allowed him to go free with a pardon. but nonetheless, he is a clear and present danger. chris, you know, the first amendment allows freedom of speech, but there are some things that louis gohmert and michael flynn, these other folks are saying, borders on sedition, and so i'm convinced that we will look at that in due time, because they just can't say anything and go untouched. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york, a clear and present danger, bordering on sedition. those were weighty and frightening words we heard from the chairman of the 1/6 select committee back in june when

donald trump's exnational security advisor, mike flynn, told a crowd that he supported a myanmar-style military coup in the united states. the comment he later denied making. to come back to that theme of flynn as a clear and present danger to this country, as a new piece of reporting in "new york times" magazine by the journalist robert draper details flynn's proximity to the ex-president and ongoing power among the maga base as he pushed extreme measures to overturn the results of the 2020 election and continues to this hour to spread harmful conspiracy theories. when it came to the schemes among trump's allies to seize voting machines, we know now flynn played a major role. reporter robert draper writes about the oval office meeting on december 18th, 2020, wherein flynn and others pitched their ideas to overturn the results of the election trump lost. quote, former overstock ceo patrick byrne, flynn, and attorney general sidney powell made their case directly to the president about the options he had at his disposal, including

flynn's suggested use of the national guard and u.s. marshals. according to byrne, powell handed trump a packet that included previous executive orders issued by president barack obama and by trump that the group believed established a precedent for a new executive order, one that would use supposed foreign interference in the election as a justification for deploying the military. in this operation, byrne added, flynn could serve as trump's field marshal. flynn's proposal of using the military was so off the wall, wait for it, rudy giuliani was against it. draper adds this. quote, byrne told me that giuliani recently explained to him that he had counseled the president to reject such a plan because, quote, we would all end up in prison. there's still time. quite a moment when rudy giuliani is pumping the brakes because, quote, we could all end up in prison. wow. flynn continued his campaign, though, for military intervention to overturn

president-elect joe biden's victory. luckily, it was never successful. but he remains really popular, a huge looming figure among the ex-president's supporters. more from robert draper's great piece. quote, one year since trump's departure from office, his make america great again movement has reconstituted itself as a kind of shape-shifting but increasingly robust political parallel universe, one that holds significant sway over the republican party but is also beyond its control. in this world, flynn is probably the single greatest draw besides trump himself, the reawaken america tour organizer, clay clark, entrepreneur and anti-vaccine activist, has featured him in eight engagements across the over. quote, i view it as an honor to pay him to speak at our events, clark told me. a look at the threat of trump ally mike flynn is where we start this hour. john heilemann is the executive editor of the recount, and he's

back. also joining us, dan goldman, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, former league counsel for the democrats' first impeachment trial, not to be mixed up with the second impeachment trial and "new york times" editorial board member mara gay is here, all three msnbc contributors. i got through the draper piece, and i remember flynn being talked about as a vp and i actually remember i was interviewing jeb bush and people were covering threads of flynn. i think he was on "morning joe" one morning when you and i were both there, john heilemann, sort of cleaning up his positions on issues like abortion and whatnot. and then i saw mike pence give a speech today and i want to play what he said, and i wondered if it's beyond rational to wonder if pence and flynn could face off should trump sit it out. here's pence saying donald trump is wrong. >> and i heard this week that president trump said i had the right to overturn the election.

but president trump is wrong. i had no right to overturn the election. the presidency belongs to the american people and the american people alone. and frankly, there is no idea more un-american than the notion that any one person could choose the american president. >> so, calling it un-american to let one person overturn the election is calling trump's coup plot un-american. this is, you know, it's the farthest pence has ever gone, john heilemann. >> it is for sure. and you know, i guess better late than never? hi, nicole, by the way, happy friday. >> hi. >> it's nice to -- nice to hear a former vice president of the united states speaking the plain truth. there's no -- i mean, i don't want to call him brave, because i don't think he is brave. i think he's just, you know, calling it like -- saying something that's obvious to anyone with half a brain in their head.

but it's great that he's saying it. so what does that do to mike pence? i would have said, before today, that mike pence had a very, very vanishingly small chance of being a seriously contender for the republican nomination in 2024. i know he thinks otherwise, but his position is wildly untenable for exactly the reasons that illustrate today. this is as much a defense of himself as it is a defense of the constitution. there's parts of this pence is basically trying to say, donald trump's attacking me. i did what i had to do. we've not heard a through going critique of trump's administration from mike pence, and we won't, because mike pence, if he runs for the republican nomination, will have to say, i was donald trump's loyal vice president, and i'm proud of everything that happened except for that day on january 6th, which was un-american, but don't blame donald trump, blame his followers. that's going to be the posture he's going to take. that's not going to satisfy anybody, not the maga base and not people who think donald trump needs to be purged from the party. and i think mike pence is not a first-rate political talent, so i don't think he's going to be the guy who's going to be standing up opposite mike flynn

and as amazing as it is to say, nicole, when you raise the flynn thing, i think if you look at the way the republican party looks today, especially after what we saw, and i know you talked about last hour with the rnc deciding without discussion or debate, as "the new york times" noted, that they are going to call january 6th legitimate political discourse. if that's the republican party of 2024, which i think it is, mike flynn has a better chance of being the republican nominee than mike pence and if you think about mike flynn's background, think about his record, think about the profiteering, think about the cozying up to qanon, think about all the stuff he did, you think about the conviction, you think about the talk of martial law, all of that stuff, the notion that mike flynn is a more likely republican nominee than mike pence, as we sit here today, is, like, makes your head explode, especially for someone like you who used to belong to a very different republican party. that's where we are right now. i don't think either one of them is going to be the republican nominee, by the way, but if i had to bet on one of the two of

them, i think mike flynn's got more juice in the party than mike pence does. >> dan goldman, it's so shocking, i need something stronger in my cup but it does make robert draper's piece of reporting all the more important and seems like something we'll keep coming back to as we cover how the shape shifting proceeds. i want to read a little bit more from it. in phoenix, flynn described his motive for his ongoing activities as the patriotic urge to, quote, stand here and fight more p for this country and alluded to the scandal and financial ruin that followed for his family. what we experienced was unbelievable, he said. his war against the federal government is all the more dangerous because it's personal. quote, if you think of the classic case studies and how radicalization occurs, it all happened with mike flynn, a fellow military veteran who later did business with flynn observed. you're vilified, your family is ostracized, you don't see any hope economically, this is how you make an extremist. one hell of an extremist, and in terms of being vilified, we

still don't know why mike flynn lied. i mean, mike flynn lied about something, had the authority as an incoming national security advisor to do, which was chart the course of u.s. foreign policy vis-a-vis russia, so nobody vilified mike flynn for changing his policy. he simply committed a crime as the crimes in our -- on our books go and lied to an fbi agent and then pleaded guilty to it twice in front of a judge. so, what is this sort of -- i mean, he's such a throughline. it's sort of like, the politics of grievance but in this case, these were his -- this was his own collapse. >> well, there's a little bit more context to why he lied. and i think he was doing more behind the scenes in coordinating with russia than we may have known and certainly with erik prince is the sechelles, there's a throughline where mike flynn was also in the mix there.

but the other thing, nicole, that doesn't get a lot of attention is that mike flynn's plea deal, the original plea deal, included him making false statements about -- or representing turkey and doing some foreign lobbying on behalf of turkey without registering. he wasn't charged with that, but he was charged with making false statements. and there was a big trial in the southern district of new york related to some of that conduct. but what i think ultimately turned mike flynn is he was fired by obama, and then he glommed on to this sort of ravenous trump bait that got him access and got him some money, as robert draper's article noted, and it allowed him to rise the ranks where he could -- he ultimately now is feeding fresh meat to this ravenous

trump supporter world, this maga world, and it is inflating, i think, his bank account. it is inflating his head. and he lives in a bubble. and so he's just becoming more and more extreme because he's benefitting from it. and you know, some of the stuff that he was talking about, you know, we've been talking about this coup and overturning the election. mike flynn was talking about a military coup, a military overthrow of the proper government. this is what happens, you know, in banana republics around the world where the united states takes a very active role in preventing that kind of military coup, and he was advocating for it. and it's truly remarkable that he still is so popular, but it also just goes to the fact that people who are following the

maga world are not focused on policy. they're not focused on, you know, any meaningful role that government is playing. they are focused on sort of getting back what they feel like they have been deprived of, and mike flynn is just feeding -- adding fuel to the fire, and it's about to explode. >> i want to just follow up with you, dan goldman. i mean, the reporting just this week in "the new york times" and "the washington post," i think, paints the most alarming picture of what was on the table, and some of the memo that circulated among trump's allies about using raw intercept intel to sort of hold out evidence of election fraud, something the person in charge of foreign elections said did not happen, that was chris krebs, summarily fired. it hints at, i think, what

you're talking about, that the specter of someone who has some knowledge of how the levers of power, especially the levers of intelligence and the military work, is potentially so much more dangerous than what we experienced under four years, so you're taking the obliteration of the rule of law and adding on to it a totally outside the mainstream view of the appropriate use of military power. talk about the concerns among people who understand what that could look like, of a mike flynn ascendancy. >> oh, i mean, at this point, i don't think we would have any idea what country was founded 250 years ago if mike flynn has any significant role in government. i mean, what we have learned this week is there was a draft executive order for the military to seize the election tabulators, computers, et cetera, and we saw a memo about how the specific trump supporters could use raw signals

intelligence from the nsa to help mislead the american public, misrepresent that there was foreign interference in this election. it is using the most secretive classified, highly sensitive information for, as criminal conduct as you can come up. and that's incredibly scary. now, neither one of them happened, but it does seem as more and more information trickles out that donald trump was told of these potential options, considered them, and was seriously considering how to use them if at all, and there was even secret meetings with these, you know, extremists, byrne and flynn and powell, where they were ushered in the side door so they wouldn't be registered with the main white house. i mean, this was a -- you talk about how rudy giuliani, during the ukraine thing, was a

separate foreign policy entity, you know, bill taylor talked about him just being on his own, the former ambassador of ukraine. donald trump had a completely separate and secretive operation to overturn this election. that's what's coming out now. and mike flynn was right at the heart of the most extreme aspects of it, but donald trump was right there too. and more and more evidence is coming out about the complexity and the depths to which he would go to overturn the election. >> mara gay, my colleague, carol lee, has some interesting new reporting about this pence speech, the clip i just played. she said, what he said today is a result of mike pence, quote, seeing trump dig his heels in even deeper in going after him more personally. it says this. i think there's a sense of duty that even if the party is pretending the election denial is okay, it's wrong and not the

way to go in a presidential cycle. well, i don't know who's advising him politically. of course, that's the right analysis in terms of the country, but it's happening on the same day that john just mentioned liz cheney and adam kinzinger were censured for exactly that, recognizing the danger of what happened on 1/6. your thoughts? >> i think, you know, what we've learned in recent weeks from the committee, and its investigations, is that none of this was simply bombastic talk. there were plans that dan goldman just laid out in visceral detail, plans to overthrow the election and also the will of the american people and essentially end hundreds of years of democracy. and so i think at this point, there is such a need for vigilance that there really are going to have to be more mike pences coming forward. we're going to need people from every part of society. liz cheneys, kinzingers, pences,

everybody and anybody who is committed to american democracy is going to have to step forward now. i think the american public is exhausted. we've been through two traumatic elections, a horrific and deadly pandemic, and all of the upheaval that has come with that, and there is such a temptation right now to tune all of this out or to say, you know, what people said in 2016, which is, well, it's just talk. donald trump doesn't really mean half the things he says. and now, what we know is that it's not just one person, one president. there is an entire movement that is not only dedicated to power by any means necessary, but actually has people within that movement who are prepared to use the american institutions we have relied upon for generations and turn them to destroy democracy. and that's really scary and exhausting to think about. but if we're not vigilant, you

know, these people will have much more power than they do now. this movement does not represent the majority of americans, but it can do great harm, and it has already done great harm, especially when you think about covid, for example. if we don't take it seriously. so it's good to see mike pence coming along and i hope he'll continue to speak out. >> so, john heilemann, there's an echo in what carol lee's reporting in this sort of straw breaking the camel's back with the way the committee sees the potential of bill barr as a witness. "the hill" is reporting that democrats are amping up the pressure on bill barr to testify before the panel investigating the capitol attack on january 6th, saying the former a.g. has a unique window into the thoughts and actions of donald trump leading up to the siege. quote, after operating so closely with trump for a long time, something clearly soured former a.g. barr on him, so i'm very interested in what the sequence of events was that essentially broke the camel's back. that's from jamie raskin.

what are your thoughts, not on the parlor game of will he or won't he but of what he'd say. >> well, i obviously don't know about that, nicole. there's been a fair amount of reporting now in various books about the, you know, barr has obviously gone to certain authors and has given his account, and it's not contradicted. i'm not challenging it, but you know, at the moment, at that time in december when trump kept pressing the justice department and trump's white house kept pressing the justice department through various levers, including directly to barr, and there were a couple of now well reported confrontations between barr and trump, one that really broke the camel's back, right, were, i believe, in the oval where barr basically told trump that there was no evidence of vote tampering, no reason to think they had looked -- he had done things that trump wanted him to do to investigate claims that had no basis in reality, and was just, you know, forced to come back. i'll point to another parallel in a second because it's

important. and he came back and told trump, look, there's nothing here. and he and trump had the break and then barr goes and gives an interview to, i think, the a.p. or at least to some newspaper outlet that basically meant that he knew he was leaving, right? that was the moment. we know when the moment was when the straw broke the camel's back. the parallel i want to point to is a parallel between pence and barr that's different. which is the parallel of, barr went and did things that trump wanted him to do to investigate claims of voter fraud that had no basis in reality, that were totally cooked up, that were based on conspiracy theories. and barr made a political calculation. he said to trump, i'm going to go look at these things. no normal attorney general would have taken seriously those claims and expended a dime of doj resources. the election's a state matter. there was no evidence of fraud in the states. state courts were rejecting those claims left, right, and center. to placate trump, barr went out and did more investigation than he should have done.

just as mike pence was not a great defender of democracy here. we know from, again, from the reporting, from bob costa and bob woodward that pence was -- that his team were out asking people, was there a way he could do what trump wanted? he didn't just look at the constitution and say, i can't do this. this is a legitimate election. forget it. no, it took dan quayle to have to go to mike pence and say, listen, you are cornered. the constitution gives you no power. you must do the right thing here because you have no choice but to do the right thing here. neither one of these guys in the moment, they both landed in the right place, barr and pence. but neither one of them were portraits in courage. both of them were bending to trump's will all the way up until that moment when they finally snapped. and i think that that is -- i'm glad they ended up in the right place, but it really is an illustration of how much power trump had that he was able to bend them as far as he was able to bend them before they finally had to break, and this thing about what happened at the rnc

today, i think, illustrates the extent to which the -- donald trump still owns the republican party. there is no republican national committee. without donald trump's power, there's no world where the republican national committee would say that january 6th was legitimate political discourse and would censure adam kinzinger and liz cheney for investigating the mob violence at the capitol and insurrection. this is -- they're all illustrations of the same point, nicole, which is, for all the reasons we discussed now for years, donald trump's power in this moment over this party is close to absolute, and occasionally someone snaps, but his power was extraordinary. his power remains extraordinary over that party, and that is what mara was talking about, that's where the clear and present danger to our democracy is. he's not gone. we know he's not gone and that's why vigilance is required, because trump continues to exert almost, maybe more, maybe more power than he did when he was president of the united states, over the party. and that's a scary thought. >> well, and i think the

throughline that probably doesn't get enough attention -- and that's a good note. it's a good note in the media sort of conversations too, john heilemann, there are no heroes here, no parades. but it's a story of appeasement, and i think, you know, the establishment figures who loan their credibility, they laundered flagrant corruption, brazen ignorance, and the bullying that is now -- has replaced one of the two political parties in this country. as usual, not enough time. john heilemann, to be continued. mara gay, thank you very much for starting us off this hour. dan goldman sticks around. when we come back, new details about the investigation that legal experts say could become the most dangerous to the disgraced ex-president. what the district attorney in atlanta is now saying about her probe and the threat she's receiving for leading it. plus, vladimir putin gets china's support amid growing fears that russia will invade ukraine. we'll look at what's motivating putin and why his goals may extend beyond ukraine.

and the winter olympics are under way in beijing. later in the hour, we will talk to the world-renowned artist who is bringing street style to the slopes for the usa ski team. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. usa ski te. "deadline white house" continues "deadline white house" continues after a quick break.t. instead of burning our past for power, we can harness the energy of the tiny electron. we can create new ways to connect. rethinking how we communicate to be more inclusive than ever. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change. faster. vmware. welcome change. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ as a professional bull-rider i'm used to taking chances.

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at least at this phase of the case, meaning the investigative phase, which is everything we've been doing up to the special purpose grand jury. they're now in place, and they each have their roles and they're doing their work, and they're clear on what my directives are. >> that was fulton county d.a. fani willis in a brand-new interview with the "atlanta journal constitution" announcing or at least making public that her investigation into the disgraced ex-president's attempts to overturn the election result in georgia has entered a new phase. prosecutors have now turned their attention to the recently approved special purpose grand jury to look solely into trump, one that can authorize subpoenas to compel testimony from many hesitant witnesses, while the special grand jury cannot indict anyone, they will issue a report, including possible charges that prosecutors can pursue, then, with a normal grand jury. selection for the jury will begin on may 2nd. willis, a veteran prosecutor, says she expects that grand jury will be very active in june and

july, and said that no stone will be left unturned. from her interview, quote, our investigation is going to be complete so if it is found that that which you speak of with the electors is part of the scheme to do something criminal related to the 2020 election, then it is going to be looked at. joining our conversation is greg bluestein, political reporter for the "atlanta journal constitution," also an msnbc contributor. dan goldman, still here. greg, take me through -- first, she doesn't speak very often. talk about the what of this, that she's making this public, and two, the impact of this. >> yeah, you're right, she does not speak very often. she does not give many interviews so this was notable. it was the first time she's given an interview since announcing that special grand jury and this is the first time she really detailed in broad terms what she hopes to do with this grand jury. there's going to be about staffers from the fulton county district attorney office working to prepare for this special grand jury. she hopes to interview more than

100 people, potentially using the grand jury -- the special grand jury to compel their testimony. and as you noted in your opening, she is open to also broadening her investigation to include those 16 fake republican electors who made up that phony slate on the day that democratic electors formally voted for joe biden. >> greg, she talked about -- well, she asked the fbi to help with security after the ex-president called for massive protests in response to her investigation. what is the climate around the probe? >> well, there's deep concerns among law enforcement officials here in georgia that the president -- the former president's call over the weekend from mass protests could lead to basically an armed camp in downtown atlanta, so she wants back-up. she wants law enforcement officials to be vigilant and to be prepared. she does not want what she said in her letter to the fbi, she does not want a repeat of what

we saw on january 6th of 2021. she does not want a violence and a deadly mob to threaten her employees and the people of fulton county. >> it's just amazing. what a scourge trumpism is. dan goldman, she's not going to talk about what happens behind closed doors, but you can make a good guess at what's going on. what would you sense they would be sort of poring over in terms of evidence and witnesses? >> look, they're going to go through all the communications that they can get, emails, text messages. they're going to ask all the witnesses to turn over any materials that they have related to it. but nicole, you know, it's going to be a, clearly, a fulsome investigation of what happened in georgia, but i have some real issues here, and it's not with fani willis, who i think is brave and admirable and honorable for taking on this investigation under the heat that she's going to endure,

including her physical safety. it is just now so common for anyone who stands up to donald trump to be threatened and to have -- when he knows that his supporters will use violence in following him. but you know, there are a couple of things that concern me. first of all, this is bigger than the fulton county district attorney's office. this is a wide-ranging, nationally organized and orchestrated effort to overturn the election. of which georgia is a part of it and perhaps the most notable part of it because i think the evidence related to georgia is the best evidence that we have. but this is not an investigation that should be done by the fulton county district attorney's office. this investigation should be done by the department of justice. and it needs to include what occurred in georgia, but it also needs to include what occurred

in all these other states, what occurred in washington, d.c., what occurred at the willard hotel, at the department of justice. there are so many different threads and tentacles that a local county district attorney's office does not have the experience or the, you know, really the manpower to deal with something this broad, this significant, and this serious. and so, it just should not be done by fani willis, as good a job as she seems to be doing. but the concern is that the department of justice needs to take this over, and i don't understand why they're not. and then, when we hear on the other side of the spectrum, from the january 6th committee, that they're considering giving immunity to some of the witnesses who have asserted the fifth amendment, i can tell you as a former prosecutor, that's almost the death knell to any prosecution of an individual who gets immunity. that, to me, would be a strong

indication that the department of justice doesn't really have an interest in investigating this, because they wouldn't necessarily know if someone like jeffrey clark committed any crimes without actually investigating it, and if they allow congress to give use immunity, which is immunity for the actual testimony, then that would only occur if they're not really interested in investigating that individual who has already asserted the fifth amendment because he's afraid that his own statements would incriminate him. so you put it all together, and i just don't know what's going on at the department of justice. but this investigation needs to be done by the department of justice, and it needs to be done really aggressively and very quickly, and we're not seeing any of that. >> okay, what you said is important and disturbing, and i just want to make sure i've got all the pieces of it. you mentioned jeffrey clark. his involvement in overturning specifically the results of the state of georgia is known through, i believe, testimony

first to the senate judiciary committee from then acting a.g. jeffrey rosen. we learned of a letter that jeffrey clark wanted the acting a.g. -- the acting attorney general to send to overturn the results. there's also, i think, the u.s. attorney was pushed out or fired or quit. your point is that those pieces of evidence alone, never mind the other six states in which a plan was committed to paper, and fake electors submitted their fake slates to congress, makes clear, reveals at least probable cause to investigate that effort, the state-by-state effort to overturn the election. and then the second piece seems to be the most disturbing of all, that the 1/6 committee is now potentially engaged in conversations to grant immunity to their witnesses, something they would not do because that investigation, ostensibly, includes u.s. attorneys and people that could at least call over and say, hey, is this going to mess you up?

your sense is that if we see a whole bunch of people getting immunity for the 1/6 commission, it's a good indicator that it's safe to assume those same people aren't under federal investigation. is that what you're saying? >> that's exactly right. and the reason is that before congress would give immunity to any witness, they would actually consult with the department of justice, and the department of justice actually has an opportunity to object to it, officially. i don't think that would be necessary here because the 1/6 committee is probably coordinating pretty collaboratively and cooperatively with the department of justice. but you know, we heard zoe lofgren and we've heard some others talk about the discussions behind the scenes about whether to give immunity to these witnesses, and while technically speaking, use immunity only means that someone like jeffrey clark would not -- would be immunized to speak truthfully in front of the january 6th committee -- i'm not going to get into the details, but the way it functionally

works is that it's almost impossible to prosecute him. by the department of justice. not by congress. and there are lots of reasons for this, but the practical effect of it is that it basically makes it almost impossible, and ollie north was a great example of why it's so bad for any prosecution, if congress gives immunity. and so if they are actually seriously discussing giving immunity to these january 6th witnesses, that means those witnesses are not under serious investigation by the department of justice, and what we know about jeffrey clark from both the senate judiciary committee but also the inspector general of the department of justice is that he was involved, to some degree, with these efforts to reverse the results in georgia, at a minimum. we don't know, there may be more. and that's enough to investigate. so, you know, that's something -- he took the fifth amendment because of that. so, he obviously knows that he

has some criminal exposure, and if the department of justice signs off on allowing congress to immunize him, to get his true testimony without the opportunity to assert the fifth amendment, that means they're not interested in investigating him. >> wow. more questions than answers today, i'm sorry to say. greg bluestein, dan goldman, thank you so much for spending some time with us. when we come back, does vladimir putin stand to gain by risking war? the answer, according to the "atlantic's" anne apple baum may go far beyond ukraine. e apple by e apple by go far beyond ukraine. (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. (music) one gram of sugar, ♪ i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪

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today, russian president vladimir putin and chinese president xi jinping met in a show of solidarity and a challenge to the united states' dominance on the world stage. in a joint statement, china accusing the u.s. of stoking protests in hong kong and encouraging an independent taiwan while russia said the u.s. was playing a destabilizing role in ukraine. the statement reflects the geopolitical threat that democracies all around the world represent to these two autocrats. writing in "the atlantic," anne applebaum says, putin wants his neighbors to doubt whether democracy will ever be viable in the longer term. in their countries as well. farther abroad, he wants to put so much strain on western and democratic institutions, especially the eu and nato, that they break up. he wants to keep dictators in

power wherever he can in syria, venezuela, and iran. he wants to undermine america, to shrink american influence, to remove the power of the democracy rhetoric that so many people in his part of the world still associate with america. he wants america itself to fail. joining us now, former top state department official rick stengel and clint watts, former consultant to the fbi counterterror division, now a distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy research institute. both msnbc contributors. so, rick stengel, here it is. i mean, the specter that folks like ambassador mcfaul and others have been warning about, this link, this shared mission between putin and xi and the fear that there is a very significant cost, i guess, to questions about america's strength on the world stage. >> absolutely. i mean, xi and putin are united with the idea that they want america to fail.

what threatens putin, what threats xi is not nato or even american military power. what threatens them is the thirst for democracy that people around the world want to be able to make decisions about themselves for their own destiny. looking at that picture now, it's very cold war-ish, you know, dr. no, and they're wearing matching ties. i don't know if they decided that in advance, but part of what is going on here and why ukraine is so important is that both of these countries want a sphere of influence world. that means that china has power in south asia and we can't question it, that russia has power in eastern europe and the old warsaw pact. that's what they want. they don't want a world of international global institutions like the u.n. where people are making decisions. it's a very old -- it's a 19th century idea. it's what the monroe doctrine is based on. but that's not the world that i think people in the world want, that americans want, that certainly the biden

administration wants. we want a world where people can decide their own destiny, where they can have democracy. that's what threatens xi. that's what threatens putin. and that's why they bounded together today. >> for some reason, that threatens some of the loudest voices on the right, and i guess my follow-up for you, rick, is, which side is winning? >> you know, i don't like to talk about who's winning and losing, and you mentioned people on the right who used to be the most anti-russian people of all, and there are even people who said that we should let putin do what he wants in ukraine so we have an alignment with putin against china. well, you know, that was proven wrong today when this buddy movie between xi and putin came out there. the problem is democracy is declining around the world. there's a democratic recession in the world. freedom house, which takes a poll, shows that democracy has been declining every year for 15 years, and the problem with what

happened with that last president, with president trump, is that he too undermined democracy in the idea of people around the world. as anne said, these countries in eastern europe, kazakhstan, belarus, those people obviously want democracy, and the u.s. has been the voice of that, but under donald trump, it wasn't, and that is threatening this whole, you know, movement towards freedom that has been going on since world war ii. >> clint, i wonder what it looks like, how meetings like this and this show of solidarity is weaponized against democracies and against this democracy, specifically. >> i think that's the key point, nicole, is this is only possible because america's divided at home. we clearly don't know what we believe in as a country at this point. we're not fighting and advocating for it, and over the last five years, just going around to different sessions, either with lectures or talks,

and when you ask people, what should we say back to these countries? it's not quite clear what we would say because there's not unity at home, and when america's divided at home, we cannot advance abroad, and the day we stop advertising for democracy, the day we stop advancing democracy, putin, xi, all these authoritarians will start advancing on us, and i think that's what we've seen in recent years. we've listened to the trump rhetoric. trump rhetoric was just downright stupid. you know, we were based on military alliances, economic and trade policies that brought us into the world. these were the things that kept society together and really kept capitalism pushing in conjunction with democracy in a way that was prosperous for everyone. it come as no coincidence that so many people around the world were elevated from poverty during the period where the u.s. was really in a state of hegemony where we could lead and guide around principles.

where's the united nations talking about ukraine? you don't hear it. where are these vehicles? we have a nato that is definitely weakened. i don't think it should be counted out yet but france and germany are really taking a different tack, so they see blood in the water and when they see blood in the water, they're pulling all the sharks around america right now. >> it's really disturbing but really important. rick stengel and clint watts, thank you so much for being part of our coverage. up next for us, the official start of the winter olympics. after a quick break, we will be joined by a very special guest, the artist and designer who is making sure the athletes on the u.s. ski team look the best. whos making sure the athletes on the u.s. ski team look the best.

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reknown artist, hayes, you're a big deal, you did the new york nets jerseys, tell us how you came to design the olympic ski uniforms? >> what an amazing opportunity. they reached out to me immediately and the theme of the original campaign was called american originals so they thought i fit the bill and they said my skillset suited what, how they saw this working out. >> did you -- can you, do you mind sharing sort of your process? i mean did you watch more skiing? did you sort of go and meet any of these folks? what was the process for the actual artistry? >> it -- you know, this project of this scope is developed over quite a number of years. so it started with a visit from the spider team, who flew into new york and we met and got familiar with each other and sort of kicked around various

approaches to the uniform and the overall identity. one of the things i'm really pleased about is that it gave me the opportunity to sort of function as an artist as well as a graphic designer and art director, so there are elements in this collection of painting, of hand-lettering and certain iconogrophy we chose to place in different ways. >> it's really so beautiful. we need the olympics or maybe just the idea of something to root for these days, during these times. are you going to sort of settle down and watch more olympics because of your role in it, or what's your sort of -- what's your olympic plan? >> oh, absolutely. i'll be glued to the tv until the final bell. you know, we're -- we're sports fans, my family, and, you know, nothing bigger than this in our world this weekend. >> is there anything about the

pandemic that hindered you or made this process more challenging than the assignment would have been in a nonpandemic time? >> certainly, there were some bumps in the road that might not have otherwise been. you know, we've seen in realtime, some of the supply chain issues along the way in terms of production and sampling. i think we're all thrilled that everything sort of crossed the finish line in time to be on everybody, at game time. but, you know, in reality, it was sort of a nervous long wait, because nobody really knew what the tone or availability of the world would be at this point in time looking forward, and i think we're all just really, really thrilled that the games have landed the way they will and, you know, we will all be privy to sitting at our tv sets and enjoying it.

>> it's just the opportunity of a shared experience i think a lot of people are really struggling with the isolation and to have such a big role in it is really, really neat. we're really grateful to you for spending time with us, thank you, my friend. >> thank you so much for having me, nicole. >> quick break for us, we will be right back. be rightone out. waffles loves her dog bed. we can hardly get her out of it. she's kind of a diva. yes, waffles! living your best life. back.f] i'm telling y'all there's no place like wayfair to make your home totally you. ooh! i want that.

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you up or going to sleep? i don't think so, i think we'll put money on it. yeah. i'll bet you. >> if trump wins, i get money -- >> okay. >> it's incredible to watch, it's a clip from an emotion and intimate brand new documentary called "love and the constitution" it is about as you saw there congressman damy rascin and his son tommy, you

heard his voice in a phonecall on the night of the 2020 election how he tragically took his own life just days before the january 6 insurrection, the film explores that confluence of tragedies for the raskins focusing not only on the congressman's profound grief over the loss of his beloved son but also the love that helped him endure and push him on as he led the second impeachment trial of the ex-president, you can watch "love & and the constitution" right here on msnbc. thank you for letting us into your homes for another week of shows, my friend alicia menendez, the beat starts right now. happy friday. >> happy friday to you my friend, happy birthday to you my friend, so glad to have a day to celebrate. >> two hours, you got