then, are you feeling stressed about the state of politics in america? you are not alone. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. i want to start tonight's show by asking you at home or wherever you may be to take a look at where you are in this very minute. where are you sitting? what are you doing? are you sitting on the couch tucked into a blanket. maybe you'll doze off there before you can make it to bed. we have all been there. now imagine that in the comfort of that moment you wake up in the early hours of the morning to a group of armed men barging into your home. you're confused. you're scared. what are you going to do? how are you going to react? for 22-year-old amir locke, a

mack blan in minneapolis, this wasn't an imaginary scenario. no, it wasn't. police killed locke while executing a no knock warrant. before we get into the circumstances surrounding his death, i want to take a step back. i want to tell you a little bit about his life because, once again, when have to learn about another black man in america not because of how he lived or what he wanted to do or what he did with his life but by how he was killed by the police. amir was born in the suburbs of saint paul, minnesota. as a kid he played basketball, even tried out for his high school football team. but his true passion was music. before his death, locke filed paperwork to start a music business, even designing a logo. this week the 22-year-old had planned to move to dallas where he hoped to take the next step in his hip hop career and be

closer to his mom. his father described his son as a bright light. and his cousin remembered locke as having a big heart. in minneapolis he worked as a food delivery driver. according to his family he recently purchased a gun for protection due to a spike in carjackings. that gun which his family says was purchased legally is now at the center of what took place wednesday morning. when police entered the apartment they found locke sleeping on the couch under a blanket with his weapon nearby. we can see the moments that led up to locke's death. we have to warn you at home this may be hard to watch. here you see officers entering the apartment with a key. just nine seconds later, minneapolis police officer mark hahnman shows locke. no knock raids are supposed to be rarely used as a police tactic. they were designed to give law enforcement a tactical advantage because under a no knock warrant

police can enter a private property without first alerting those inside. hence, the name no knock. they're commonly used for drug busts so that suspects can potentially avoid hiding evidence. but the no knock warrant police had that day was for a homicide investigation, not a drug bust. and amir locke's name was actually nowhere on that knock warrant, no knock warrant. in fact, it wasn't even his apartment. now, if this whole ordeal sounds familiar to you, that's because it is. no knock warrants came under intense criticism following the 2020 killing of breonna taylor during a no knock raid in louisville, kentucky. now following the fatale shooting of amir locke the mayor ordered an immediate halt to the tactic while they review and possibly revise the policy. the death comes at a time when a city of minneapolis is already on edge following the 2020

murder of george floyd at the hands of ex-police officer derek chauvin shined a lot not only on police violence but how much we can take police at their word. activists are questioning local authorities over their report for what went down wednesday morning. during a press conference after the release of that body camera footage, a local civil rights attorney who serves as the co-chair on community safety called out the interim police chief and mayor. armstrong demanded answers and accountability, like we all do. >> i don't know how you guys slept that night. i couldn't sleep that night. tears from a mother's perspective thinking about what happened. i found a picture of amir, he looks like a boy. my son is 17 years old. he has slept on his friend's couches for sleepovers.

so we cannot sit here and whitewash this and pretend it's okay. i signed up to bring recommendations because we're tired of being killed. we're tired of the cover-ups. we're tired of the excuses. >> so as we all wait for more details to come to light, locke's family hopes their son's death sparks change and not just conversation. >> i want everybody to know that my son is going to make sure that everybody across the united states the going to be able to sleep on the couch without having to be worried about being executed by the police. >> yes. yes. >> joining me now is antonio romanucci, one of the lawyers representing amir locke's family. thank you so much for joining us this evening. in a statement that minneapolis police put out on wednesday,

they refer to locke as a suspect and said his gun was, quote, pointed in the direction of officers. we now know locke was not listed on that parent and the body camera footage really doesn't clearly show the gun pointed at an officer. at least not from what i have seen of it. do you think the minneapolis police department deliberately misled the public or is misleading the public with that statement? >> ayman, first of all, you did a great job setting up the scene in which amir was killed. it is a tragic circumstance without question. i'm really bothered by the narrative. not only ayman mohyeldin i bothered by the narrative that we heard from the minneapolis police department but, look, i have to tell you, i'm bothered by the narrative that police departments put out after people are killed because the narratives always are used as a means to justify the shooting, and that's what -- and that's what happened here. so the words were written deliberately. whether or not they were deliberate in what they meant to say, we have to admit -- we have

to say what it is. those words were put on there deliberately. because if indeed the gun was pointed as a police officer, they're trying to use that as a means of justification. and even if the gun was pointed under these circumstances, this was an unjustified killing of a young man on a no knock warrant which he wasn't named in way early in the morning when he was surprised within a matter of seconds. so, yes, i'm very bothered by this narrative. and i think this is where police departments need to change immediately in order to show transparency. they're not trance participant when they come out with narratives which speak police language and which only attempt to justify their actions. >> yeah. and i wanted to hone in on that for a moment because it's a very important point. as i mentioned, you represented george floyd's family. what's interesting in that case as well is the first police statement didn't match up with

what we saw when the footage was released, that cell phone footage and all the documented footage around it. the minneapolis police department clearly has a credibility problem. just as a member of the community there, what kind of impact does that have on the community? >> well, i mean, obviously when you don't have trust it creates mistrust between both police and community. and so many times we hear police departments say, well, we need the community's assistance in either solving crimes or keeping crime down. well, you can't have it both ways. you have to have the cooperation both ways. and right now minneapolis has a credibility problem. we heard, after george floyd was killed, the first narrative we heard there was that mr. floyd had a medical emergency. well, the medical emergency was somebody choking him to death for nine and a half minutes. here with amir, we hear the police said they were

continuously announcing their office and their purpose for being there while amir was pointing a gun at somebody, and the body worn camera that we seen does not match up at all. so we have to straighten out this narrative in order to gain trust and be credible with the community. that is one of the simplest things that can be done for police departments in order to engage their community. and we see how hard it is for -- for departments to do that. >> can you shed light on what you have been able to ascertain so far either from the family's conversation with the minneapolis police department surrounding this or do you have confidence this investigation can be carried out by the minneapolis police department. it seems counter intuitive to me that a police department involving in a shooting of a potentially innocent man on a couch is also asked to carry out that investigation. are you speaking an independent investigation from a jurisdiction beyond the

minneapolis police department here. what do you and the family want to see right now. i asked a lot of questions surrounding this but i'm trying to get information as far as what the family wants to see and how this should proceed from here on out. >> we know keith ellison will be investigating. i think that is a good thing because that is independent. although the attorney general is technically not a police agency, they are the highest legal authority in the state of minnesota. so i do have confidence that the attorney general office will conduct a very thorough investigation, so let's see what they have to say. secondly, what does the family want? the family clearly requires, is not asking, but they require and they demand justice. they demand criminal justice. they demand administrative justice, and they will demand civil justice. they want everything across the board here because there is no way that amir should be dead right now.

had the police department done what they should have done, had they really articulated the reason, the dangerousness for a no knock warrant which we see did not exist, amir would be alive right now. >> one of the points that people have brought up certainly activists is that the lessons of what happened to breonna taylor were not learned, if you will, by other police departments across the country. and it is part of the reason why people are calling for a national effort to reform police departments in this country. we know that has been fought and pushed back against. people say it has to happen in a different community. local communities have to make these decisions. had there been a lesson learned from breonna taylor that no knock warrants were necessarily effective, would we have found ourselves in this situation if minneapolis would have learned its lessons following what happened to breonna taylor? >> very likely not. what we do know is recent statistics show there are over

60,000 no knock raids carried out her year. that's exorbitant. it's extraordinary. i heard the top of your show. when would the lessons be learned? see, we take too much time in trying to learn lessons. municipalities that run police departments where police officers are sworn to uphold the law and they wear a badge and they carry a gun and they can -- they have the authority to kill people when necessary, if you don't learn lessons when there is bad policing, then you cannot carry out good policing because then it turns into this right here. we're having this discussion. >> antonio romanucci, sir, thank you for your time. i look forward to following this case very closely. >> thank you, ayman. thank you. still ahead, time is running out to settle the 2015 iran nuclear deal. plus, how has the january

6th insurrection and the trump presidency traumatized us as a nation? i will discuss that with my sunday night panel. good evening to you. some of the stories we're watching for you. a navy seal candidate died and another was hospitalized in san diego on friday. the sailor started experiencing symptoms several hours after an issue that had happened during a training program known as hell week. the cause of death is currently under investigation. queen elizabeth celebrated her 70th year reign with a surprise announcement on saturday. the wife of prince charles, camilla parker bowls is set to take the title of queen consort when charles ascends the thrown. it was speculated she would only receive the title of princess consort. in beijing the u.s. won its first medal on saturday. the silver in the women's snow

board slope style final. new zealand won the gold, a first for the country as well at a winter olympics. more ayman with ayman mohyeldin right after this. more ayman with ayman mohyeldin right after this"ayman" with ay mohyeldin right after this. d ge insuring your jet skis... and boat...rv...life... ...home and more. you could save up to forty-five percent. mohyeldin right after this (burke) well, we offer coverage for a whole lot of things, and you could save a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks. (kid) sup, dad! (burke) seventeen-car garage you got there? ♪we are farmers♪ ♪bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum♪ your doctor gives you a prescription. “let's get you on some antibiotics right away.” we could bring it right to your door. with 1 to 2 day delivery from your local cvs. or same day if you need it sooner. but aren't you glad you can also just swing by

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the fact is this was a horrible one-sided deal that should have never ever been made. >> with those words and

accompanying decision to pull out of the iran nuclear deal, donald trump made the world a less safe place. it was true in 2019 and even more true now according to reporting from "the wall street journal." the period that iran would need to build the weapon decreased from 12 months to a month or even less. but despite this concerning revelation, not everyone is giving up on diplomacy just yet. the eighth round of talks are happening now in vienna. the president of biden special's envoy for iran. earlier i spoke to him about the status of these negotiations and more. robert, thank you so much for joining us. i greatly appreciate your time. the news this week, i have to say, makes the deal look like it's hanging by a threat if it's not already dead. u.s. officials saying iran's nuclear program has already gone too far for the deal's original frame work to even matter. what should we be making of the

headlines this week? >> first, ayman, thanks. it's great to be on your show. so i think no u.s. official that i know has said that there is no point in coming back into the deal given this information. to the contrary. what we have heard so far, all the advances iran has made has bolstered the case of getting back into the deal because we have lived the alternative for the last several years. iran is unconstrained in its new clear advances and that's why we see that as of today they're only a few weeks away from enough enriched uranium for a bond. because of the advances they made over the years since we withdraw from the deal that it will be hard to recapture the full break-out time line that was achieved in 2015/2016. that's obviously one of the many catastrophic consequences of the decision to leave the deal. but our experts say as of today and it's the position of

president biden, secretary blinken, that as of today it is still worth getting in the deal. not for much longer. but as of today our view is getting in the deal would be profoundly in the interest to avoid seeing iran advance towards a bomb and avoiding more tension in the middle east. as of today it is clearly the u.s. position that it's still worth going into the deal. but what we have said very openly to iran is that that won't be the case much longer, which is why we say we only have a few more weeks to go at the current pace of iran's nuclear advances to get back into the deal or unfortunately we're all going to face a very different reality. >> i ayman mohyeldin sure you have seen some of the comments made on capitol hill this week. senator bob men nen dez questioned the pint of rejoining the deal as you were just making the case for it. let me just play for you the sound byte on what he had to say

about your perspective of the deal. listen to this. >> the president's iran negotiator trying to revive the deal at this point would be, quote, tantamount to trying to revive a dead corpse. >> all right. so, i mean, according to him in that specific quote he used of you, he is trying to make you sound pretty hopeless. obviously that is not the case. you know, and senator men nen dez's visual aid it seemed was reminding me of a similar one ten years ago. but what do you say to him there using your quote? >> we have a lot of obviously a lot of respect and i worked close with him on all issues. we know he was an opponent. we respect that view and we continue to talk to him about it. what i said in the quote was that at this pace if we continue, we will soon reach the point where trying to revive it will be tantamount to reviving a

dead corpse. president biden still wants us to negotiate in vienna. we're going back next week. that's a signal or a sign of our continued belief that it is not a dead corpse that we need to revive it because it is in our interest. it is the best way we have to put iran's nuclear program back in the box and be sure we put that problem to the side. so, no, we haven't reached that point. but i think it's very clear that if we don't reach a deal soon, that point will have been reached. and then we'll have to think of other ways to address iran's new clear program. but as of today, it is our view, the view of our european partners, the best way forward is to get back into the deal if iran is willing to come back into full compliance with its obligations. >> let me play for you another clip from the un general assembly last fall. he had this to say about iran's nuclear capability at the time.

>> iran's nuclear program has hit a watershed moment and so has our tolerance. words do not stop cent fugues ( from spinning. >> words don't stop cent fugues, but military action, would that stop it? is war something that you are preparing for if diplomacy fails? >> so, again, we have -- we worked very closely with the israeli government. we're very transparent to it. we do have a disagreement on that issue. but the deal, the agreement we reached prove that it stopped it and it could stop it again. again, we have lived the alternative. this is an experiment that we lived for three years without the deal.

we saw what happened with iran's nuclear deal. and the campaign did the opposite. iran's nuclear program accelerated. our priority is to get back into the deal and we're prepared to do our deal and those sanctions reimposed by president trump and inconsistent with the deal. if iran chooses a different path, of course we will use the tools we have to put pressure on iran to ensure they can't acquire a bomb. keeping the door open for diplomacy but using other tools to ensure that iran can't move towards acquiring a bomb. so that's going to be our policy. we will work with all our partners to achieve it. we have differences with israel but we're working hand in glove with them to make sure our common interests are defended even if we have these views of getting back into the jcpoa. but over the last several weeks, we have had almost every day senior -- former senior israeli

officials come out and say, including those in favor of the decision to withdraw from the deal when it was made in 2018. today they're saying it was a catastrophic decision for israel's security because today they face an iran that is only weeks away from having enough material for a bomb. whereas with the jcpoa, they were months and months away from that. i think that's something that's sober and we hope others will listen to as well. >> so let's look at it from a slightly different perspective. that is from the iranian perspective for a moment. they have no reason to trust the united states. we tore up the deal, violated the packet by imposing more sanctions against them. we assassinated their top military general. what reason do you think they have to trust us? i mean, to believe any deal will even last monday this administration. if you were iranian, would you trust anything the u.s. is offering? >> so i'm not going to put myself in their shoes, but i

will say this. it is true. in our system we cannot bind the future president. that's a decision that whoever comes into the oval office will have to make. what we do say is president biden has made clear that he will stay in copliance with the deal, the u.s. will stay in compliance with the deal as long as iran is in compliance. the point was to then leave it. now let's get back into the deal as soon as possible. let's show it brings benefits both the united states and to iran. and then try to build on it to reach other understandings which will make it even stronger, make it have more bipartisan support, for regional support in the middle east. so we never said it is the end of diplomacy. we said it is a necessary step so we would lift some sanctions and iran would come back into compliance so we no longer worry about iran's new clear program. but we should we should build on it.

that's clearly our view. and we think iran should also have an interest in addressing other issues not addressed by it. we can't make a promise that we can't hold. and president biden will not make it. i won't make it. we're not going to say once we get into the deal a future president can't tear it up. our hope is that we could show that this is a deal that is in our mutual benefit, which is the best way to ensure it is sustainable and to build on it and so strengthen it. >> okay. so the iranians were compliant with the deal by everyone's assessment. you suggested that the u.s. and iran should step back both into the deal at the same time and go from there. my question is, the u.s. left the deal first. why not be the first to re-join? why not say we are going to go back into this deal, no conditions and we will pick it up to the point where we as a country broke our promises the first time? >> first of all, the sequence who goes exactly first and second, that's not really the

issue. but if what you are suggesting is that the u.s. should go back in and hope that iran will follow suit, i think the ten months of negotiation proves this is not a light switch. we have different views. they want us to lift all of the sanctions that president trump imposed and we say some of them he posed because of iran's behavior that has nothing to do with the nuclear deal. even though a majority of them we would lift. we have requirements for what it would mean for iran to come back into the deal which we haven't agreed with them yet. we could take the step that we're back in. they may not take the steps that are required. it is complicated. again, it is one of the legacies we have to deal with from the prior administration. but it is not as easy as us going back in and hoping iran will follow suit because we have to agree what does it mean for the u.s. to be back in compliance. what does it mean for iran to be back in compliance. >> robert, final question for you. what do you say when people say,

why can't we live with a nuclear iran? they are a rational actor. the u.s. concludes that iran is a national actor. thereby self-preservation. what would you say to someone that says iran wants a nuclear weapon. i understand it is about trust. but at the same time, why wouldn't we be able to live with nuclear iran the samewy we live with nuclear korea or pakistan or other places? >> a region that suffered so much instability and would cost us, the united states, in so many ways. iran has shown that it has engaged in destabilizing activities and iran armed with a nuclear weapon could do worse. it is a commitment that president biden and former presidents have made, that they will not allow iran to acquire a nuclear bomb, and that's not about to change. >> my thanks to the u.s. special envoy for iran for joining us. and coming up, the january

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with telephone records and mettadata including link analysis and fbi data mapping technique used to study terrorist networks in order to find the truth. joining me now is barbara lee. congresswoman, it is good to see you again. thank you so much for joining us. what is your reaction to what is being described as this aggressive tactic by the committee. is this the only way to breakthrough trump's stone walling? >> nice being with you, ayman. and thank you. listen, chairman thompson and his committee are doing the job they were asked to do. they're doing a phenomenal job. they are trying to make sure that this never happens again. they are trying to make sure that our democracy is secured and what they are doing now is mounting the camp -- the agenda and tactics and strategies that they think are warranted. when you have individuals

especially in trump's inner circle acting above the law in a lawless fashion, come on. what do you do? you cannot let anyone get away without coming forth with the truth. this was almost a coup. the peaceful transfer of power almost did not happen. this was a violent insurgency. so chairman thomas is doing the right thing. if they won't step forward, they're saying no to the subpoenas, they're basically just acting as if they're above the law. no one is above the law. and i could tell you one thing. when you act in a lawless fashion like you're acting, the committee has the right to pursue the tactics that they deem necessary to get the facts to make sure those recommendations are made so that this will never ever happen again. >> i got to ask you if you are concerned, though, about this,

because the committee's aggressive approach carries with it risk that could fail to turn up compelling information about trump's efforts to hold on to power. certainly they meet a legal threshold. are you concerned for the outcome of the investigation at all, and do you see the world where they can't make a legal case for the department of justice to act upon? >> no. i think that chairman thompson and the committee are doing the right thing. they have brilliant lawyers. they have excellent strategists. they are looking at the facts. they're pursuing every avenue that they must pursue. and of course the justice department is conducting the criminal investigations, but our committee is doing everything necessary to make sure that the facts are not only gathered but exposed, that the public understands what took place so the recommendations could be made so it will never happen again. so i believe they know exactly what they're doing, and i think

we have seen already the accomplishments and the product of their work. >> all right. congressman, i want to switch gears for a moment if i can and just true on your personal expertise because back in 2001, you were the only member of congress to vote against the war in afghanistan. i'm old enough to remember people then calling you a traitor. you then received death threats. but history has shown you made the right call. it appears we are on the brink of a potential proxy war with russia. white house officials literally questioning the patriotism of journalists expressing doubt about america's strategy. what do you make of everything that's happening right now with ukraine, russia and the united states? >> well, let me tell you, when i was in ukraine in 2019, i talked to many ukrainians. they are people who love their country. they're proud.

they're resilient. they want democracy and they're a sovereign country and have the right to determine their allies and their alliances. secondly, president biden, i think, is doing the right thing by mounting a very robust diplomatic strategy. we have well respected diplomats. they're seasoned diplomats. they know exactly what they're doing. so we have to move forward and allow the diplomats to do their problem without putting forth and are concerned about the more troops being sent as well as more defensive weapons systems to the -- excuse me, that are based in the countries around but also the weapons systems that are sent to the ukrainians because any mistake could happen. the president has already said there will be no ground troops. i believe him. but there could be miscalculations. and anything that undermines the diplomatic initiative right now

i think we need to be very careful as we move forward because it is a very dangerous situation. it's very complex. but i really firmly believe that we have to let the diplomatic strategy work without interference or without undermining it with other forms of military threats because you never know. it could be a deterrence, but it also could be provocative and, in fact, then we're in another ball game. and i don't want to see that happen. i know the president doesn't. the state department is really done a fine job in their diplomatic initiatives and we need to allow them to continue to do that. >> all right. congresswoman barbara lee always a pleasure. thank you so much for your time. greatly appreciate it. still ahead, an old book drawing new controversy. i will explain that to you next. i will explain that to you next.

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if you thought the campaigns to remove the bluest eye and mouse inspired controversy, wait until you hear about the latest book that trump supporters want banned. >> it is a book that we've seen that's in libraries that features the story of two daughters having sex with their dad. >> oh, wow. >> they get their dad drunk to have sex with him. and this is like a book. >> oh, my god. >> should a book like that be in a school? >> no. >> just get that out of the school? >> why would kids even read that? >> that book is the bible. >> oh, no. no. >> what a testament. cancel culture is real, folks. cancel culture is real. is real

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and it is not confined to one party. tonight immediately after our show, msnbc films is premiering "love and the constitution." it is the story of congressman jaime ras kin and the nation suffering through unimaginable drama. joining me to discuss, "the new york times" columnist, michael steele, the former chairman of the republican national committee and dr. jeffrey gardier, a board certified clinical psychologist. it is great to have the three of you with us. michael, let me start with you. i want to play a bit from the film. in this clip, the congressman recounts the devastation caused by the pandemic, including the effects on his son tommy who had been a student at harvard law school at the time. watch. >> covid-19 was a ka tas tra fi for our country. the economic consequences of it

were ka lam nous. we ended up losing hundreds of thousands of people. we have 82,000 of our fellow citizens who have died already. we have tens of millions who have been thrown work. we have seen massive shutdowns, harvard law school closed physically and tommy came back to live with us. he was on zoom doing his classes. it's a very strange, isolating time. >> tragically, tommy died by suicide at the end of 2020, only days before congressman raskin was tapped to lead the impeachment trial against donald trump. we all know that story. michael, back to you. how does one even begin to cope with the trauma of losing a child and an insurrection in tandem? >> it's hard. it's hard as hell.

and i've gotten to know jamie over the years through our political battles and alliances and it's really great to work with him now and appreciate the leadership he's bringing to this. but at the same time he paid a price. that isolation for his son was devastating. and his son is one of hundreds of thousands who carried that burden and tried to cope with it and live with it. it speaks a lot to how that aspect of covid is something that is often lost on leadership. people get caught up, eamon, in the numbers. what percentage of that, how much of this, we're not doing enough of x, y and z. but behind those numbers are real people. and when you get into a situation where it becomes so polarized that you can't even have decent, clear information go out to citizens who

desperately need it for one reason or another, it adds to that burden in a way that we don't necessarily recognize until it's too late. >> yeah, it's a very important point, and i'm glad that you put that in perspective for us. michelle, in a recent column, you discuss the devastation right on the mental health of the country by the trump presidency, sometimes through policy decisions, if you think of policies of separation, policies of the law, policies of the muslim ban, sometimes it's the gaslighting we had to endure. you wrote that the crisis expresses it's in all sorts of ways, in rising rates of youth suicide, record overdoses, random street violence, months-long waiting list for children's therapists, mass meltdowns, qanon and others i've listed there. is all this stress driving our politics mad, or is it the other way around? is the crazy politics in turn

making us crazy? >> i think it's a bit of a vicious cycle in that, you know, the mental health crisis in this country, the fact that this is just such a grim time to be an american for almost anyone, the fact that there is so much isolation has made our politics particularly vicious. but obviously this viciousness predates the pandemic, it predates trump. trump is in some ways a symptom of this as much as he is an he can -- accelerant of it. we had a really broken policy, maybe more broken than some of us realized before 2016. it's just continued to shatter, continued to fall apart. the more falls apart, the more people are angry, the more they're lashing out, the more they're insecure and anxious. i talked about this with jamie raskin, and he very much feels like, you know, just the ambient ugliness of politics in this

country, of life in this country, the sort of absence of leaders who are really able to provide people with tangible hope was, you know, part of what led to the tragedy in his own family life. >> yeah, and, jeff, we think of our politicians is supposed to inspire confidence, inspire hope, inspire optimism. that same university of nebraska study i revealed showed between president trump's election victory and his 2020 reelection campaign, psychotherapists reported a significant jump in patients, reporting politics negatively affecting their mental health. as a psychologist, what do you make of this sense of hopelessness and despair that people are experiencing over politics? have you ever seen anything like this? because what i worry about is people stay disengaged from politics, and quite frankly, this is not the time to have a disengaged citizenry. we need people to be engaged in

politics even if it is politics of despair. >> yeah, i totally agree with you. i read one of michelle's articles, and she talks about one of the issues that people are having is that they're not able to disengage, and that seems to be a real problem for folks, and the avice we give foam is to be engaged as much as possible, so now they're stuck in this fight or flight. they don't know which way to go. their physiological systems are in overdrive, and this is really hurting them. especially when we look at people not just opposed to donald trump's policies, not just democrats, but also racial minorities and students, racial minorities that i'm very concerned about because they've had an increase in suicide rates. so this is something that we must address. >> michael, many people had hoped that with trump's departure from the white house, there would be an improvement of the mental state of the country. it does not seem like we have come out of that yet.

things seem to remain quite dark. are you surprised by that? what do you think it is going to take collectively for the country to move forward from this trauma? >> i'm not surprised by it, eamon, and it has been profoundly brought home to us by the declaration of my party this past week that january 6 was a legitimate political discourse when the country knows it wasn't. so when you have such massive breakdown and dysfunction of one of the major political parties, it tends to make that recovery that much more difficult. when you have people resisting, as we've seen with the vice president, how many months now since january 6? and he's just now saying donald trump was wrong? that has a stress on the country in so many ways. so the body politic, to michelle's point, is off. and to get it back on course is

going to take a herculean effort by a lot of americans who reaffirm their belief in e. pluribus unum. if we don't, we'll find a way to move separately and that won't be the u.s. >> a very important conversation but one that i hope sparks a conversation elsewhere. michael steele, michelle goldberg, jeff gardner, thank you for having that conversation. thank you for making time for us at home. stay tuned for "love & the constitution" next on msnbc. you can catch "ayman" every

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