for the very latest, as tensions there rise. and then, the velshi band book club begins this morning. the conversation with george and johnson, the author of all boys aren't blue, a more manifesto about being black and queer in america. velshi starts now. ♪ ♪ ♪ good morning, it is sunday february the 13th. i am ali velshi. with each passing day, the failed former presidents disregard for democracy, the law, and record keeping continues swirling into focus. and important new piece in this morning's washington post, details the long strange trip taken by a cache of 15 boxes worth of presidential documents and records from the white house, to mar-a-lago, and back, from the custody of the national archives where they belong. the ordeal only culminated last month, january 17th. nearly a year to the day after the former insurrectionists and chief left the nation's

capital. this story begins last summer, when the national archives and records administration reached out to the former presidents team to tell them, some high-profile documents from his presidency appeared to be missing. then, followed an unusually long process of noncompliance from the failed former presidents team, so much so that it one, point at the national archives officials threatened to send a letter to congress or the justice department, revealing the lack of cooperation. well eventually, these items, some of which are even marked classified and top secret, or packed up into those 15 boxes. the post notes that the former president was a noticeably secretive about the packing process, so much so that top aides and longtime administrative staffers did not see the contents. at least he eventually backed them up, and didn't flush them down the toilet. and, i can't believe i actually uttered that entirely laughable sentence. but, we learn more this week about what new york times

reporter, maggie abraham's voice is said to. reveal the presidents tendency for flushing non flexible, non toilet paper paper down his presidential toilet during his time in office, was so prolific that it routinely clogged and actually broke the toilet on more than one occasion. and, the shredding former president isn't a random neighbor either. according to the post, he's got a particular style for doing the deed. per the, post trump had a ripping product so distinctive, that several aides instantly remembered. it to tears that left the paper in quarters. the remnants were strewn on desks, in trash, can't and on the floors from the oval office to air force one. as president trump also regularly retired to his private residence with reams of official documents, often leaving them to pile up until record staff came searching for them. although, it's not likely that all of those official documents were retrieved by the staff. because as i just mentioned, the former president already flashed some down a toilet, which says a lot about his

regard for american democracy and calm and decency. it is unclear, exactly, how or why the former president decided to take these specific documents inside those 15 boxes with him, when he left the white house. in addition to classified and top secret items, which are very clearly a problem, the cash reportedly also includes the quote, beautiful love letters that donald trump says north korea's kim jong-un, the leader of the most repressive and murderous regime on earth sent him, which made the two quote, fall in love. which is again, trump's words. our failed former president is reportedly still in contact of some sort with his murderous pen pal, according to haberman's upcoming report. and remnants of the map of hurricane dorian. remember? this where the former president cartoonish away used a black sharpie, you can see it over on the left there, to add a bubble to the tip of the storm's official path, in a supremely

stupid attempt to show that he knew what he was talking about, after he had sent an incorrect tweet about the storm. this map was also located in the mar-a-lago cash. so, it's also unclear as to what the duration was for wet went to mar-a-lago. so, this all happened in 2019, less than three years ago. it's important to remember just how ridiculous and damaging all of this was, and still is. it's easy to forget, sometimes are easy to feel like it wasn't real, and it was so much nonsense, that it didn't happen. in fact, this is for the party of trump want you to think, that this is just nonsense, so we start from the past. but, these things did happen, more happened. that's why the work of the national archives are so important, keeping these records for posterity, so we and future generations will no, and hopefully learn from the disaster to democracy that was the trump presidency. joining me now is the former senior adviser to and chief spokesperson for the vice president kamala harris. she is the author of the book,

no you shut, up speaking truth to power, and reclaiming america. and i'm happy to, say she is now a colleague of ours. simone sanders will soon be a host here on msnbc, and also on the choice, which is nbc's streaming service on peacock. simone, good morning to you. thank you for joining us. se>> good morning, ali, and thak you for that really comprehensive lay down for folks. because, i think this news has been kind of crazy and unbelievable to follow. >> but, not for people like you, right? for people like you who go work in the white house, i assume that you've got to learn very early in your orientation about document handling, and how to handle confidential information? >> yes, absolutely. so, a couple things. first and foremost, a couple people have tweeted me asking, is there a big orientation you go to? and, there are a number of orientation to do go to when you work at the white house. and almost all of, them especially in your first couple of weeks in the building, you learn, and it is hammered into

you about the presidential records act. now, the presidential records act is something that is fairly new, if you will. it's only been enacted since 1978. but since 1930, every president has preserved records. and the white house, we are told, that anything that you write, on notes taken in a meeting, text messages that you send from your official phone, if you have text messaging. emails, they're all part of the presidential records act, and they must be preserved. now, your emails are automatically preserved in. architect messages, if you have text messaging, automatically preserved. but, no to take in a meeting, a paper that you handed the president or vice president, that they take notes on, that has to be preserved. and, there's a process for that. essentially, everything they touch. and so, that's where the staff secretary and their team is so, so important. >> now, in fact, you have a story about a photo that was in your office. you wouldn't have thought of it as official government property. i mean, you wanted to take it with you when you left? >> absolutely. there are these huge photos in the west wing of the white

house called jumpers. and they are pictures of the photographers that get blown up. on the vice president side of the west wing, there are photos from her, and on the president, side there are pictures of him. well, there is a big picture that we got, and we put in my office. and, i wanted to take it with me. and, i was probably told no. and, i didn't understand why, but i was told that it was a property of the federal government. and if we wanted these pictures, they would only be available when the administration was over. and if i took it, but they would come looking for me. so, if that's how folks feel about a photo, that i was in actually, imagine how -- wet the feeling was of these 15 boxes? >> so, that's my. pointed somehow, 15 boxes didn't make it to the archives, which means somebody deliberately assembled stuff that was and 15 blocks it. i totally see why he wanted the sharpie map of the hurricane because that was one of the sillier instances of a presidency. but, there is stuff in there that was classified, and top secret, according to reporting. now, the president cannot declassify information, but he

doesn't declassified by taking, and putting it a, box and putting it offside. there's a process to that. >> there is a process, and only an actual president can declassify information, ali. so, it's not declassified because donald trump took it, and he wasn't president anymore. and all of a sudden, that means it's declassified. there is a process, and the current president of the united states is the only person that can be classified classified documents, at their win. i think there is another piece to this that's important. maybe i saw a statement somewhere that president trump basically said, this is from a presidential library. and, that is why the presidential records act does exist. when it nixon created his presidential library, you know that he described watergate as that attack on nixon and not an abuse of power. it took some litigation before the real thing finally got into the library. so, it's very important that these items go to the national archives and records agencies, so that they can catalog them. they decide, and they picked through and come throughout history, not a president

picking and choosing, a former president picking and choosing. and, it will all eventually go into that presidential library. but, it's not up to donald trump. >> oh, this is an important point. i'm glad you made that point. so, the excuse that i kept these things to go in the library does not hold water? >> it doesn't hold water at all. that's why the presidential records act exists. it is the national archives that takes everything from an administration, and then they are warehousing. it, now it is up to a former president of the united states to fund-raise for their presidential library, to select aside for their presidential library. and then, after they've done all that good work, and they've broken ground, and they've built it, they turn it over to the an ar, at the national archives and records agency, and they helped kind of administer and keep track of everything, if you will, with the staff that works for said president elaborate. so, it's kind of complicated, but that piece is really important because last point,

folks are, like there's no enforcement here. and [laughs] as somebody who used to work in the white house, i often raise, we'll, what happens if i do this? there are senators, remember, congress who believes that there should be some type of enforcement mechanism. and one of the bills that was proposed at the end of the trump administration was a bill that would say that, if you violated the presidential records act, you would not receive this public funding. so, the nara would not be able to administer, and help you fix up your presidential library. >> some, and we are really going to benefit from having all of your experience in information here. i am looking forward to when you join us. simone sanders is a former senior adviser and chief spokesperson for vice president kamala harris. she is soon to be a host here on msnbc, and also on the choice, a channel on nbc's streaming service, peacock. thank you for joining us, simone. well, joining us now, matt up a task, he is a national security reporter for the washington post. he contributed to a new piece in the post as part of the team that broke the story's, that the national archives has asked

the doj to investigate the former president's handling of white house, records and also that some of the documents from the mar-a-lago resort were marked secret, and classified. he has been on top of the story for literally every, day the last two weeks. you've published brand-new information, matt. so, first of all, thank you for your reporting. this is a bigger deal than some people are making a bit. maybe people are busy. but, at the factors, this is really important in an administration that was deeply challenged about what it did, and would've, said and whether it was constantly lying, and the idea that papers were misting is dramatic. have we been able to figure out how the 15 boxes that were taken away were curated? who decided what went into it? and, what's the contents of the classified and top secret documents would've been? >> those are all great questions, and unfortunately, questions we are still chasing. the best we can, tell and this is a little bit of speculation among people who were involved in the packing up of materials and the white house, is that

trump, as you noted earlier, as our stories noted, would take official documents, you know, from the white house up to his residence, and then sort of accumulate them in these piles. and, the sort of thought is, when they are hastily packing up at the very last minute to leave, that he just says hey, everything in my residence comes with me. and, that includes all these work documents because he would take them up there. and, that apparently includes some classified and top secret documents. we don't know what those are. that's a great question. our last understanding of that is that the archives have taken possessions of them. they were in a secure facility, and we're just waiting to see what happens next. the archives wants the justice department to examine this. and normally, the justice department does examine things like this. they wanted to see how the classified information get out? who might have seen this classified information? was there any sort of nefarious intent and taking this away? that hasn't happened yet, as we understand.

it's still being talked about at the justice department. but, they will want the answers to those questions you ask too. what is in there, and what's the path of this? how did this get in there? >> so, this is curious, when we talk about intent, right? was there nefarious intent? here's the problem. people who talk about trump, and now trump, say he's always had weird habits with documents and records. and, he also snubs the idea of a law, right? he had the sense of the law, big about the law while he was president. so, it makes it difficult to determine whether he had intent of doing so. but somehow, 15 boxes got away. so, somebody had some thought as to what went into those 15 boxes. is there, having studied this for a couple of weeks, now is there is some sense of these are the super nears he wanted, or the things he wanted? or, do you think there's something in the public interest? national security experts will say, when you remove a classified document to, it's always in the public interest because it was classified for a reason. >> so, i think is a multi party answer to that. one, and the arc of sort of

gets on to this because they see these high profile type documents that kim jong-un letters, a letter from president obama, the famous sharpiegate map. they notice these are missing. and they wonder, what's going on? these are official government documents. we need these. they reach out to trump's team, and then, it's discovered that, well gosh, it's not these three profile documents, there are boxes. more and, the arkansas said publicly, there might be even more things and there. so, you are right that look, if he just took these things, he thought they were his personal property, you know, it's maybe a dispute between the government that says, that's our property, and trump that says, no, that's mine. i'm not saying that in significant, but that's less significant then if he's taking out reams of classified information that might show he did something untoward. we certainly don't have evidence of that yet, but we just don't know. you're right, that's the question to ask. as fascinating as flushing

things down the toilet is to me in a salacious fashion, there's actually a more important question here about, did somebody choose to take important documents out? thanks for the reporting of you and your team. security reporter for the washington post, i would recommend following all of their reporting, because it is important in it is unfolding on a day-to-day basis. hey, today is the day we start the velshi banned book club. george and johnson, author of all boys aren't blue is joining me for the launch of our exciting series. we're also continuing to keep an eye on the situation in ukraine, with the united states saying that intelligence states a russian invasion could begin any day. democrat senator ben cardin joins me at the top of the hour. straight ahead, we are on the ground in kyiv. kyiv kyiv yeah, you'll get used to it. this mom's depositing money with tools on-hand. cha ching.

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direct warning to russian president vladimir putin, as more than 100,000 russian troops tighten their child cold on ukraine. the two heads of states vote on the phone yesterday for just over an hour. according to a white house readout of the conversation, biden warned putin that in an invasion of ukraine would result, unquote, swift and severe consequences to moscow. white house officials described the call is professional and substantive, but added that there was no fundamental change in the dynamics that has unfolded now for several weeks. the call came just hours after the united states state department ordered almost all of its embassy staff in kyiv, minus a core team, to evacuate. nbc's matt bradley is in the ukrainian capital of kyiv. good morning to you, did this phone call shed any light on a timeline for a possible invasion, or an off ramp to an invasion? if that's with the russians are looking for. >> yeah, ali, it's kind of hard

to have a timeline or schedule for an invasion when the russians are continuing, time and time again, to deny that they're going to be invading at all. so, there is no timeline there. that was a timeline that came from jake sullivan in washington, the white house. and it was shockingly specific. something that a lot of ukrainian officials are just bewildered by. why are the americans, why is washington, generating these very specific, sometimes kind of off the wall theories about a possible invasion? including these false flag attacks, crisis actors, there's a lot of questions here in the capital, kyiv, about where washington is getting this information and why they are sharing it in the way they are. such as shatters sky, increasingly hysterical way. a lot of anger here among officials, so we don't have a timeline. >> do you have the latest estimates on it an invasion were to happen, when it is planned for? >> no. we really don't. we haven't seen much of that at all. we have heard from jake sullivan, and from the white

house, that it could be wednesday, could be before the end of the olympics on february 20th. but, again, there is nothing behind these! american officials aren't telling us exactly why or how they are getting this information but, again, ali, it's incredibly specific, which, in a way, makes one wonder if it's true or not. the fact is, if it's the white house, the pentagon, they've confuse the public with information like this before. so we have to be wary. >> that will be back to you in a few hours. matt bradley in kyiv, ukraine. we'll be back to the crisis in ukraine at the top of the hour. maryland senator ben cardin joins me as well. we will be discussing the swift costs that biden told putin to expect if the invasion does happen. but first, we're going to stick closer to home. my home, pennsylvania, in fact. pennsylvania will be one of the deciding factors as to which party holds control of the senate after this year's midterm elections. i'll talk to one of the front runners in the race for senator.

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well, for the last year, democrats have had the benefit of a unified government. they have control of the white house, the senate, and the house of representatives. but, all of that could change after the midterm elections in november. democrats may lose control of the house. and, it won't take much for them to lose their razor thin majority in the senate to republicans. it's a 50/50 split right now. one state in particular, that will have an impact on the ballots of power in the senate is my home state of pennsylvania. it was critical in 2020, putting joe biden over the hump to win the presidential election. and now, it's expected to be one of the most competitive elections of the year. the polling website 538 listed as one of the seven races that will likely decide control of the senate. pat toomey is retiring this year, after more than a decade in the senate. and now, more than a dozen

candidates are looking to replace him. on the republican side, big names like former tv host mehmet oz, and former hedge fund executive david mccormack are hoping to take to the seat. and, their heads on the democratic side or john fetterman, kong nor lamb from west pennsylvania, and malcolm kenyatta from philadelphia. now, the reports ranks the said it ranking as a toss-up, meaning that candidates from both parties have a chance of winning in the general election. but, due to the volatility of pennsylvania in recent years, it's going to depend on what type of candidates emerge as the nominee for each party. so far, i've interviewed two of the democratic senate front runners. i am now joined by the, third connor lam, who represent pennsylvania 17 congressional district. it's in the western part of the, skateboarding rang on ohio. it encompasses all of it beaver county, portions of butler, and alligator county as well. congressman, good to see you.

thanks for being on with us. >> thanks for having me. >> the senate race has been called by pollsters, a toss-up, which means you or malcolm kenyatta, or john fetterman, or somebody else have got to prove to members of your estate when one if you get the nomination that you are better positioned than you are republican upon it to win. what's your best argument with the people of pennsylvania? keeping in mind how there is no one people of pennsylvania. their needs are different, depending on who they are, what they earn, where they live. >> that's right. i feel like my best argument is that i've done the job of representing pennsylvanians already. and you are exactly right. there is no one lane, there is no one profile, other of politicians or of the people that we want to represent. but, my sense is that president trump's whole outsider anti politician thing, people are done with that. it really blew up on us in terms of, you know, his incompetence and really that illegality of so much of what

he did in office, and then his mismanagement of the pandemic. i think people are going to be hungry for someone to say, i'm a professional, i'm competent, i know how to be a legislator, and that's what i will bring in as a united states senator. >> so, some of the things that really helped you in your district -- i wonder whether -- how you manage that for a statewide run. for example, a run for congress, you talk about your time. you are a marine. i believe, you continue to be in the reserves? you have an affinity for guns. you are a pro gun democrat. that probably helped you win some votes among conservatives in your state. how does that play in philadelphia and pittsburgh, that have more liberal voters? many of whom are anti gun, and you need their votes, anyway. >> well, i think the important thing for me to do is not allow our voters to get in captured by all of the imagery, like you just showed. but, just to talk about what i've actually done with the job of being a representative. and, we've cast a lot of votes in the four years i've been there, including votes to

strengthen and rebuild the background check system, close loopholes so that every gun sale in the country actually requires a background check. so, what i always tell people when i asked them this is, i do believe in the second amendment. and the fact that people have a right to own a firearm. but, nobody has the right to break the law. in a city like philadelphia, where we are today, almost every single murder is committed with an illegal firearm. and, most of them are handguns. so, if we really join together to crack down on that, which is something i used to do for a living as a prosecutor, we can save a lot of lives. >> last sunday, i had your competitor, state representative malcolm kenyatta on the show. he described to me -- i ask him the same question. why are you better suited to represent the principle of pennsylvania? there was something interesting in his question, in his answer, that i want you to listen to. and, i want to get your reaction on the other side. >> you know what? if you want to talk to working class people about their lives, and about the policies that we need to see implemented, that'll make their lives better, that will allow those things that i outlined to be real in

their lives, you know what's helpful? is to actually nominate a working person. you have somebody like me in this race, who i actually grew up in one of the working class neighborhoods that we so often say we want to represent. that those are the folks who are trying to. and well you know what? working people can speak for ourselves. we don't need a spokesperson for our concerns. we don't need somebody cause playing concern for working class people. we need to actually elect a working class person. and, when i spoke to fetterman the week before, he also talked about working people. so clearly, that resonates, right? there are working people all over america. they want to know how you, as the candidate for the united states senate, are going to connect with them. what's your response to that? >> well, i think, you know, the job of ascender is to try to represent everybody that's in front of you. and, i think malcolm has a good point. going up the way that he did probably does give him a unique and a really important perspective in our party. but, what's at stake this year, especially in a post january

6th world is that we are up against a competing party that is really trying to undermine the foundations of our government, under system, and they lie constantly about every issue, you know? they don't just lie about the election. they lie about everything that is important to you and your family too. so, the stakes of actually winning this race in november, where really counts are really, really high for working people, and for everybody else. so, i think the argument that i've made it so far out on the trail as i can actually win this race. you know, i can win the whole state of pennsylvania, in a year where some of the headlines are going to be against us. i've done that in congressional races before. and, that's something that neither malcolm nor john fetterman can say. and so, that's been a lot of what the primary campaign is about. and i think by winning, we are going to be able to deliver the votes that helped everyone in our party, especially people who are learning -- earning less than $15 an hour, and people who would have benefited from the child tax credit, and build back better. people who need to pay less for their drugs. all of those are things i voted for already, so people can take that to the bank, and no, i

will cast that same vote in the senate. >> so, one thing you haven't dealt with, yet you succeeded in winning in web counties, places that otherwise vote republican, or at least in the last four election did, in the election before that did. here's the question. now, there is this weird separation between republicans and democrats, about whether or not the 2020 election was fair, the big lie. how do you deal with that? because, you have constituents who voted for you who may believe in the big lie? >> yeah, well i think it's important never to excuse the lies that trump is telling, and ever be anything less than clear about what happened in 2020. but, i don't believe that the 2022 campaign is going to be a replay of 2020. i don't think people are going to want to hear about trump and biden won campaigning. i think they are going to want to hear about the future and pennsylvania, and how someone like me plans to address that. again, i have a little bit of a head start here, having worked on legislations specific to our state for the last four years. and, so i can talk to people

about, you know, how we are going to create and protect jobs here in an era where we are dealing with climate change, and how we can be the first state in the world where you make steel without emitting carbon, and how we are going to take care of our seniors in a state that's one of the most elderly. things that are really specific to. and i think again, i think there's a hunger out there for people to feel like they are being represented by someone who takes the job incredibly seriously. and just wants to do the best they can for their constituents. you know, not necessarily be part of a national media drama every single day. and, that's what i try to do as a member of congress. i think people will respond to that this year on the campaign trail too. >> congressman, thanks for taking time to join. us democratic congressman connor lam is running for the united states salmon. we have pictures. we want to put up pictures from windsor, ontario, across the border from detroit. it does appear that police now are moving in to remove the remaining protesters. as you, know at this time yesterday morning, they had

decided to start moving those truckers away. carl perry was reporting. many had been removed or had voluntarily left. now, something else is happening. in front of you, you see an rcmp van. that is not provincial police. that is the royal canadian mounted police, that do not typically involve themselves in pearly jewel police, or local police actions. so, you know how the federal government of canada involved in something that is happening on the ambassador bridge. the ambassador bridge runs between downtown detroit and downtown windsor. winter is on the south side across the detroit river. they have assistance. they've been offered assistance by the department of homeland security and local police forces around ontario, including the provincial police, and now as you can see, the royal canadian mounted police. i am not clear on whether or not there is military involvement in that. but, it looks like canadian authorities have decided that the deadline is come and gone, and they are about to clear the bridge. i am going to ask my producers to stick with this for a little while through the course of the show, just so that we've got a

sense of what's happening there. we will stay on that story. they've got a little while to walk before the encounter anyone. there is another story going on today. and that is that it's super bowl sunday. you, know i'm up for a little sports challenge. so, instead i've got a basketball story for you. how the sudden death of a rising star triggered decades of incarcerations, and harmful drug laws that still have influence today. ll hav influence today. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. ♪nothing is everything♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ well the sun is shining and the grass is green ♪ ♪ i'm way ahead of schedule with my trusty team ♪

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on a situation that's going on at the international border between detroit, michigan in and windsor, ontario. yesterday, the police started to move people out. a number of truckers did move voluntarily, the police went to them and they understood that there had been a court order requiring the removal of those truckers. most of them left, many of them left, but all of them didn't leave and the bridge remains impeded. it does appear, now, 24 hours after that started, police are now moving in. we will momentarily have pictures of the situation. but, what we have appears to be a joint force the police forces from around windsor, the winds are city, force and other forces bolstered by ontario provincial police and the royal canadian mounted police. there seems to be a multi agency effort now to remove the remaining truckers who are blocking the ambassador bridge from the north and, from the south end, the part that goes from ontario into michigan.

the department of homeland security, after a conversation between president biden and prime minister trudeau, had agreed to international cooperation and reopening that bridge. through which, hundreds of millions of dollars of trade, including a lot of auto parts, travel on a daily basis. between the auto plants in michigan in the auto plants in ontario. the department of homeland security did offer aid to the canadians if they need it, in clearing those bridges out. but, so far, we don't know what's involvement u.s. authorities have right now. what we do know is that, moments ago, we saw images of police from numerous agencies walking in an orderly fashion, supported by armored vehicles, toward the trucking convoy. at some point, i don't know what that looks like when they get there. whether they'll ask them to leave or whether they'll take action. one of the problems is, when people don't move their trucks, you have to tow them. and a number of tow truck companies and ontario have told police that they have been

threatened, that if they get involved in telling these trucks they will face same kind of a problem. you are looking at a picture there, in the distance of the ambassador bridge, it does go between canada and the united states. it is the biggest of dozens of crossings between canada and the united states, meaning it's the most important. more trade goes through that bridge than any other bridge or crossing between the united states and anywhere else. so, that is the most important trade spy in the united states. it is already started to be reflected in factories that are losing their parts. so, a few ford factories have shut down, gm has stopped a shift that one of its plants. toyota has said that plants, even in the southern united states, have been affected by the fact that they can't get parts moving across that bridge. the main complaint of the truckers's vaccine mandate, that they have to be vaccinated in order to cross the u.s. canadian border. there's a lot of flaws with that thinking, in part because there's mandates on both sides

of the border. the second part, 80% of canadians are vaccinated, and the third part is that 90% of canadian truckers are vaccinated. so this is a fringe group, but because they drive 18 wheel trucks there able to cause a lot of disruption. with their protest. they are not supported by their unions, they are not supported by the largest tracking union in canada. they are not supported by the teamsters in the united states. they are, however, supported by a lot of right-wing american media. whom, for whatever reason, are egging them on, and some are even suggesting, including senator rand paul, that those protests come to america inspected shut down cities here. we have seen increased involvement by those truckers in toronto, and in ottawa. we're not sure how this is all developing, we're going to wait to see those shots. when we get, then we will come back to them in a moment. i'm just gonna check with my executive producer about how we handle this, whether we handle and stay on that shot or whether -- all right, we're going to take

a quick break. we'll get that shot of the police, when they started countering the truckers, momentarily. stay with, us the coverage continues in just a moment. you're watching velshi on msnbc. t a moment t a moment you're watching velshi yes! 2b's covered with zero overdraft fees when he overdraws his account by fifty bucks or less. and 2c, well, she's not going to msnbc. let a lost card get her stressed. that's right. that's because these neighbors all have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. can you be free of hair breakage worries? we invited mahault to see for herself that dove breakage remedy gives damaged hair the strength it needs. even with repeated combing hair treated with dove shows 97% less breakage. strong hair with new dove breakage remedy. number one beauty brand not tested on animals.

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cover the situation in windsor, and i will let you know when there's an update. but this morning, we are getting a new look at a 55 year old unsolved murder case, that many of us probably haven't heard about until now. this is the story of or list jackson senior, a local and double acp leader who was murdered in a car bomb in mississippi in 1967. he was 36 years old at the time. he had a wife and five children, who worked at the armstrong tire and rubber plant. he had just been promoted to a position that had never before been held by a black man. despite suspicions and allegations that his assassination was carried out by the inner circle of the ku klux klan, known as the silver

dollar group, no one has ever been charged for jackson's murder. it remains a cold case. and, the tragic story is at the center of a new pbs frontline documentary, titled american reckoning. in the film, jackson's son, or list jackson junior describes the day. he was just eight years, old that he discovered his father had been murdered. >> i heard an explosion. in my mind, i go, what is that? i had never heard anything like that before. i jumped on my bicycle. i shout right there, and then they shot right through here. straight here. you look straight down the street light to mlk i'm noticing people outside of their houses, you know? i just rode up there and started looking at it. [noise] i saw someone in the

street. not knowing who it was. i see the truck, not knowing whose truck that was. and then, i had to connect the dots together. >> the upcoming film examines the jackson's family 55-year search for answers. it recovers many of the untold stories of the civil rights movement. the research center provided the archival footage used in the documentary. this is going to be the first time much of it has been seen on a wide scale. and, if it weren't for that abundance of footage and living people who still remember the tragedy, this particular story may have been impossible to tell. it could've sprightly faded into history. joining me now, are the two women who are instrumental of the production of this frontline documentary. she is that writer, producer, of american reckoning. she is also an award winning

filmmaker who worked on the new, black the killing of breonna taylor, and. others also, joanne porter, who is an award winning filmmaker in her own right. she's held titles like john lewis, good trouble, bobby kennedy for president, and gideon's army, to name of. you thank you to you both for being with us. we will just let you, know we are following the situation in windsor. so, in case i have to interrupt us. but, i have to have this conversation with. you so, but let me start with you. many people don't know the story of wireless jackson senior, or the specific racist history of mississippi. how did you decide to come until the specific story? >> well, i was brought on -- first of all, thank you for having us on. i was brought on to this project by my co-director, brad liechtenstein, who had started this film a bunch of years ago, through his relationship with congressman john lewis. and, their discussion about the till act.

he brought me on a few years later. asked if i wanted to partner with him. and immediately, when i heard this story, which i had not heard of, and saw this archival footage that you mentioned, i was, you know, really, one, excited to tell the story. and so, that journey began in 2016. and here we are today, and about to premier on frontline on a tuesday. >> and, we look forward to it. don, there have been -- these projects that you have both taken on a largely have to do with the black experience. how does it feel to know that two of you are involved in telling stories that are newly relevant? this is not -- this doesn't feel like a historical experience, when you are both involved in right now. all of the staff, the people who put their bodies on the line during the civil rights movement seemed suddenly new and very relevant to the black experience in america today, and frankly, the entire american experience. today,

>> you know, sadly, that's exactly the case. it's really striking to me that we are creating this content at a time where people are trying to suppress the telling of real history. as you mentioned in that terrific opening, these crimes are not solved. so, this film is part of a larger frontline investigation into the names of the tail act, which was introduced by congressman louis. it was an attempt to investigate a number of cold case civil rights claims, civil rights killings, civil rights murders. none of whom have actually been brought to justice. so, this beautiful film is a piece of that frontline experience. it's a bigger project called unresolved. but, this story that we have created, as you say, this footage has never been seen, and it's really important, you know, this footage doesn't lie.

and so, it to the extent that people are questioning the accuracy of history, it's right there for the asking. >> well, we've learned in the last couple of years that there are still people who would restrict our ability to record these things, for very reasons like this. you know, 50 years, somebody makes a documentary about. it when john lewis died, it was a remarkable moment for people who understood how much history he, had and it's over that he had talked to people, and had been involved in these projects. but, to don's point, that research center provided much of the archival footage used in the documentary. a lot of this was entirely unseen by the public, until you took a look at it, you and your team took a look at it. are you surprised by anything anymore? did you see things in there that shocked, even you? >> you know, a first, off just having the documentation of what was going on during 1965

and 1967 -- i mean, i did not know that story. so, that whole story was fascinating and surprising to me. the other part that was surprising that we were able to see in the footage is the deacons furred offense, the armed resistance group that protected the community, and enforce the boycott, which led to, you know, changes in the city. and you know, that was also an untold story. so, to have that documentation in this archival footage is pretty incredible. and, i should say that the 1965 footage was aired on pbs, called black narratives. but, we were able to not only have access to that footage, but outtakes from black matches. and, then the filmmakers went back to match in 1960, seven right after your list was

murdered. and, that footage has never been seen before. >> don, you had mentioned that we are in this moment, in which people are trying to ban history. in fact, today is the inaugural day for what we are calling the velshi banned book club. because, we are going to start looking at some of the things people don't want to. tell some of it is history, and some of it is very contemporary. but, we are in a time where some people are trying to stop history from being told. does that make this feel more like a calling then, you know, being an executive producer or filmmaker already is? >> 100%, you know, making films is hard, and telling stories well is hard. we are not doing a book report here. but when you have resources like this footage, that's shot on film, it's so visceral, it's so captivating. it really helps you understand the times. and as your robust said, you know, one of the untold stories

of the civil rights movement is the part of the movement that was not nonviolent. that deacons furred defense said that they would respond with violence if attacked. and, they stood up for themselves. and, there's that story, which is as important as any that we have ever seen. but, it's really a little known part of the civil rights resistant, that i think is also important to share. you are, right it is a calling. it's different from a victim narrative, that there is actually stories about what people did to stand up from themselves. and that some people died in the process of trying to change the situation. yoruba, toward the beginning of the dog one black person says, wake up white people, we're not going anywhere. essentially saying that black people will remain undeterred despite the violence they were experiencing at the time. again, a comment that could be recorded in june of 2020 in the streets of mid minneapolis. we are witnessing a vast

erosion of voting rights for people of color in this country, we are still witnessing police killings involving honoring black americans. you've gotta tell me, i'm hoping you're going to tell me, europa, that something has changed since 1967. that black person that said white people wake up we're not going anywhere, are things different. >> it's hard not to feel despairing, telling these stories throughout history and seeing the same thing repeat incidents of violence against african americans. as you mentioned in the intro, i did a film two years ago about the killing of breonna taylor. what happened to her in louisville. how she was killed by police, unarmed. it is hard to see history repeat itself. in some ways, obviously, there's been some progress.

we did see george floyd's killers put in jail, ahmaud arbery, just recently. but there are so many others where we haven't seen justice. maybe a are productive sort of question is, what does justice look like for these families? these murders happened so long ago, people are dead, the perpetrators are dead. so, how can we look at what's really, what can justice really look like for these families? one thing that's really interesting is, congressman louis really wanted a truth and reconciliation commission, to be a part of this process. and, of course, that was politically not doable at the time. by can we start to look at that now? >> unfortunately those things work better while people were