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it a distinct possibility that there will be major military action very soon. and we are prepared to continue to work on diplomacy, but we are also prepared to respond in a united and decisive way with our allies and partners should russia proceed. >> we will have a live report from the white house with the very first readout of that call in just a moment for you. but first, new reporting from the "new york times" today says rudy giuliani, trump's former lawyer who spearheaded the effort to overturn the election, is now in talks with the january 6th committee about testifying. congresswoman elaine luria confirming that earlier. >> yes, he has been in contact with the committee. he had an appearance that has been rescheduled, but he remains under subpoena, and we expect him to cooperate fully with the investigation. also as democrats are working on a strategy to combat the rising crime across the country, house speaker nancy pelosi today taking a hard stance against de-fund the

police, saying it is not the position of the democratic party. >> richie torres, way on the left, saying that de-fund the police is dead, that causes of concern with a few in our caucus, public safety is our responsibility. >> we now go in depth of the hour's breaking news with nbc's josh lederman at the white house. president biden finished his phone call with president zelensky since you and i last spoke. we've just gotten the readout. what can you tell us? >> reporter: we know that that phone call late this morning took about an hour between president biden and president zelensky. the white house issuing just in the last few minutes a description of that meeting that looks, frankly, a lot like the description they put out yesterday of president biden's call with president putin,

indicating that it's a very similar message that biden has today with ukrainians that he did yesterday, saying that the president made clear that the u.s. would respond swiftly and decisively with its allies to any incursion by russia. i think yesterday the phrase was swift and severe. so you can sort of sense a theme here. the white house going on to say that they agreed on the importance of leaving that diplomatic option as well as deterrence. we're also hearing from zelensky himself in the last few seconds on twitter saying that in his call with president biden, they talked about security, existing risks, sanctions and russian aggression. but despite the call that we heard yesterday from zelensky for the u.s. and its allies to stop stoking panic in ukraine, this morning u.s. officials have continued to be urging any american citizens still in ukraine to get on the next flight out with john kirby the pentagon spokesman explaining

this morning on msnbc why those who stay will be on their own. take a listen. >> the president's made it very clear, jonathan, that u.s. troops will not be fighting in ukraine. if there's another invasion, if there's a major military action and incursion by russian forces into ukraine, and you put american forces in there under the mission of helping evacuate americans, you are absolutely raising the stakes of miscalculation and certainly increasing the possibilities that american troops and russian troops would come into contact and in combat with one another, and then this thing takes off to a whole new level. >> meaning a potential military confrontation between the two largest nuclear armed militaries in the world, alex. that's obviously a scenario the white house wants to avoid. any prospect of it coming to that. now that this phone call is over, we know that president biden will be wrapping up his weekend where he has been at camp david. he will be returning to the white house this week and handing off to some of his

european colleagues who will be paying their own visits to moscow and to kyiv in the next few days. >> yep, we're going to get to those details coming up next. thank you so much, josh, for that. so we're going to matt bradley in kyiv. you are following this other breaking story with ukraine requesting a meeting with russia apparently within 48 hours. what can you tell us about that? >> reporter: yeah. this is following on from a complaint that russia -- or excuse me, that ukraine made as part of the vienna document. the vienna document is basically a security agreement between several countries that are all belonging to the organization for security cooperation in europe. and without getting into too many boring details here, essentially it allows for a mechanism for transparency. and we already heard from the foreign minister here in ukraine. he said that he was going to make this complaint about those military exercises. the twin military exercises that are going on essentially this week to the north of where i am in belarus with 30,000 russian troops and some very macho

hardware including the s-400 antimissile defense systems. and then to the south of where i am and the black sea. and that's another really big military exercise. that's with the navy. and ukraine has already complained that that's essentially tantamount to a major blockade to major ports. obviously we're seeing big constraints on ukraine. we're seeing them being surrounded on almost all sides. and the vienna document essentially says that any country that's a signatory can then complain or demand an explanation for military exercises of a certain size. but, you know, we heard from that zelensky/biden call. and as my colleague was just describing, it's unclear where that went. and i imagine that the conversation between those two leaders zelensky was probably asking for clarity on some of the increasingly alarmist warnings that are coming out of washington.

and among those, as we mentioned, there's been a lot of talk on "the sunday" talkshows today. jake sullivan recently explaining a lot of these new intelligence pronouncements that have been coming out lately. >> we're not putting forward this intelligence to start a war, which has happened in the past, jake. we are putting forward this intelligence to stop a war. only one country has amassed more than 100,000 troops on the border of ukraine. it's not the united states, it's russia. that is the source of the alarm. and what we are trying to do publicly is be transparent to american citizens that they should leave ukraine immediately because there will not be a military evacuation in the event of an invasion. and we are trying to tell the ukrainians to prepare and be ready for this as well. we're not going to give russia the opportunity to conduct a surprise here. >> reporter: and you heard that right at the top of that quote from jake sullivan.

he mentioned, we're not putting out this intelligence in order to start a war, we're putting out this intelligence in order to avert a war. that was a pretty clear reference to the 2003 invasion of iraq by the bush administration and the intelligence that was used then as a pretext to invade. this administration seems to be taking pains to differentiate them from those intelligence assessments. but, still, i got to tell you, alex, here in ukraine, those intelligence assessments that we've been hearing over the past couple of weeks are viewed as without substance. and the administration here of zelensky, they really want the biden administration to give them evidence. they actually asked for that directly yesterday. so, we haven't heard a full complete readout of this conversation between biden and zelensky. i imagine that president zelensky here in ukraine was asking for more evidence and more information to back up those claims that we've been hearing out of washington. >> so i'm going to pick right up with this and hope to get some educated insight with my next conversation to exactly what

you're talking about. thank you for that. let's bring in michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia and an msnbc international affairs analyst. and we have the deputy director counselor. on exactly this point that matt was bringing up. first of all, the expectation from today's call between biden and zelensky. does anyone ever shout during these things? because zelensky's been pretty annoyed about all the information the white house has been putting out. >> well, i used to be on phone calls between the president of the united states and other leaders and the vice president actually, vice president biden. and i've heard vice president biden back in the day raise his voice. i doubt that happens with these two gentlemen, having interacted with both of them recently. he's annoyed, yes. but i think, let's make this a little bit simpler. this is actually not an argument about intelligence or not. it's an argument about politics.

president zelensky is highly motivated to keep people calm in ukraine. he doesn't want thousands of people standing at banks trying to get their money out. he doesn't want people fleeing the country. it's very much in his interest to try to keep things calm. it's a risky thing, in my opinion, because if there is a military intervention, he will then be criticized for not doing enough to prepare for it. but i perfectly understand his politics. that is not a contradiction to what president biden and the biden administration is saying. there's 100,000 plus soldiers on the borders of ukraine. you don't need a phd in russian studies or ukrainian studies to see that as an impending threat. there's the map, thank you. and, to add to that, i do hear in the voices of the biden administration officials in the last 48 hours, it sounds like to me that they've received new intelligence, you know, maybe it's intercepts that they have with russian military leaders that suggest to them that this

threat is even more imminent. >> given the fact you just said you've spoken recently with both presidents, biden and zelensky, what was the takeaway, what was the tone, what did you get from those conversations? >> well, let me be clear. i spoke to president zelensky last summer when i hosted him here at stanford. and i've seen him speak. you asked about shouting. he doesn't seem like a guy that would shout. i think he's frustrated. he's in a horrible position. let's all remember how horrible this is. his country is on the verge of being invaded. he knows that they don't have the capabilities to fight an air war especially against russian planes and russian rockets. and he's been told by other countries that we're not going to defend him. so, we should have some sympathy for how difficult his situation is right now. >> yeah, it's a tightrope he's walking, that's for sure. melinda, what's your assessment of the effectiveness of the white house information strategy, the efficacy of that?

>> hi, alex. it's great to be here with you. i just got back from kyiv. and i am appalled by the lack of preparedness on the ukrainian side. i think mike is right to be sympathetic to zelensky's plight. the ukrainians are not ready, they have not pardoned the northern border. there's a long forest border. and i don't know what they're doing. there's really no excuse. there are territorial defense units that are getting organized and ready. but, like mike said, zelensky does not want to make people panic. in terms of what the u.s. has done, the u.s., it has not done enough, in my view. the big question right now -- so, biden has said we are going to throw the meanest, nastiest package at russia if they invade. we will send more defensive material to ukraine. and this is the 15th plan that we've sent so we're doing that. and we will send more nato troops to eastern europe. so those are the three threats.

but is it enough to deter vladimir putin? no, it's not. so, the big question right now that we're debating in the expert community is what can we do now, what can joe biden do now, what can we do in tandem with our allies in europe to deter vladimir putin and get him to stand down? >> okay, melinda, but let me back up. the point that you made having been there and saying that ukraine is not ready to take on russian military aggression, are they ever ready, do they have even enough that it would be needed to battle russia? do they equal what russia's military buildup is? >> of course not, alex. the russian forces have, you know, many, many, many more airplanes and ships. it's never going to be an even competition. but we don't know that vladimir putin is going to do a full-scale land invasion. that's one of his options. but, given that, there's some really smart military thinkers who have said how does a small

state like ukraine defend itself against a larger adversary like russia that is armed to the teeth? and there's small little interventions that the ukrainians can do now. they can line that long border with drones, with mines. there's a lot of low-cost things that they could be doing now. and they're not doing it. and they're also not preparing the people. the job of a leader is to prepare people. i know that zelensky doesn't want war. no one wants war. but zelensky is looking at this conflict in a domestic lens. he wants to be president again, and this is interfering with his political aspirations. that's not leadership. >> ambassador, what do you think of all that melinda is saying there? >> i mean, she was there, i wasn't. so i want to defer to her expertise. i talk to ukrainians pretty much every day, and i do think there's a public messaging by the government and private concern, private worry, and

there are those that are wondering why he hasn't taken many of the steps that military experts, i don't claim to be one, but have suggested. and he's trying to, you know, play it in between those two places. on the one hand he doesn't want panic. on the other hand, he doesn't want to be unprepared. i think the challenge he faces is if there is military intervention, there's no doubt in my mind that his critics will then say, well, why didn't you do more to protect us? there will be some rallying around the flag effects, but there will also be why wasn't he ready to do this? and i just want to remind all your viewers, president zelensky is -- you know, he's rather new to politics. he was a television figure, a personality, had a very famous television show, famous in russia, too, by the way. the other old time critics, and, remember, ukraine's a democracy with lots of different parties, lots of different positions. i am confident in predicting

some will criticize him should putin decide to intervene. >> in that vein, ambassador, with u.s. personnel already leaving ukraine, the order to shut down the consular services in kyiv has triggered a wave of international embassy staff with withdrawals. but retired army general barry mccaffrey was highly critical of this move. here's what he told me yesterday. >> why are we pulling out our embassy in kyiv? this makes no sense. we ought to put more people in there, cia officers. we've triggered a definitive reaction saying we're all out, we've reassured the russians we're not going to fight you so the ukrainians are on their own. but i've seen this withdrawal the u.s. embassy package a dozen times over my life. the last time you want to reduce the diplomatic contact is when there's a crisis going on. so, it's a mistake. >> do you agree, is it a

mistake? >> you know, it's easy for us to be on tv and to tell the white house officials what they're supposed to do and what not to do. i worked at the white house for three years in the obama administration. i dealt one time with the revolution in kyrgyzstan where we were very worried about american citizens on the ground there. and we had to take all kinds of crazy activities to try to get them out, and we did because there wasn't a war. i would just remind you that we have many tragic examples when we don't get the americans out ahead of time, and the people are killed, including just several months ago in afghanistan. so, i'm not prepared to second-judge the national security adviser and the intelligence officials. they obviously know more than i do. it's not a sign of weakness that they're doing this. it's a sign that they want to, a, protect americans and, b, they want to avoid a war with russia. and if americans are killed by russian soldiers, this conflict takes on a radically different

kind of dimension. >> 100% true right there. let me ask you both the same question as we wrap this up. and, melinda, you first. reading the tea leaves, your experience recently there in ukraine, how do you see this ending? what does your gut tell you? >> alex, i wanted to jump in and say one other thing about zelensky that shocked me from the trip to kyiv. >> sure. >> so, they're not ready on a military level, and they haven't gotten the people ready. but on a political level, zelensky hasn't called all the opposition parties together. and i really don't understand why he hasn't done that and why they're not presenting a unified face. he needs to do that. and other opposition parties have expressed a willingness to do that. so that needs to be something that he does today, not tomorrow. there's a real need for a unified face against the russian threat. how does this play out? so, the worst-case scenario is a conventional land war. the worst-case scenario is that it brings in other partners and

it becomes that there's 2 million or 3 million-person refugee crisis in europe. unfortunately, that's not out of the question. i hope and pray that putin will stand down. and other scenarios are that they may try to install a pro-russian thug in power. they may take zelensky out, and they can do that. but the one concede that the russians have, moscow thinks it understands kyiv better than it actually does. kyiv has massively changed since 2014. so if russia tries to install a pro-russian leader, ukrainians will fight back. there's new polling, 45% of ukrainians will fight with armed weapons. there is a strong sense of resistance in patriotism in ukraine. it's not going to be a cakewalk for vladimir putin. >> okay. last word to you, ambassador, how this plays out? >> my honest answer is i don't know, and i don't trust anybody who says that they do know

because at the end of the day there's only one decisionmaker that matters, it's vladimir putin, and we don't know what he's decided. my guest is that he hasn't decided what he plans to do. i hope he chooses the peaceful path and the negotiation path. so i applaud our administration and other leaders for presenting that. if he does go in, lots of people are going to die, it's going to be horrible, especially for ukrainians but also for russians. it'll be the biggest war in europe since 1939, and it'll be the focus of the world for years to come. in the long run, however, i'm a very optimistic. this is the last hoorah of the soviet empire. vladimir putin believes that he can subjugate the people of ukraine and he's wrong about that. he's wrong about that, i don't know when that day will come, it'll probably be tragically years from now. but this is the last hoorah, not the beginning of the recreation of the soviet empire. >> okay. former ambassador michael mcfaul

and melinda herring, i'm very grateful for this conversation. thank you so much for both of you. the word is cooperation, and it's often a positive word. but for donald trump it could mean trouble and for the january 6th committee, pay dirt. pay di. i also earn 5% on travel purchased through chase on this rental car. that lake is calling my name! don't you get seasick? we'll find out! come on. and i earn 3% on dining including teout. so much for catching our dinner. some people are hunters. some are gatherers. i'm a diner. pow! earn big time with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. why hide your skin if dupixent has your moderate-to-severe eczema or atopic dermatitis under control? hide my skin? not me. by hitting eczema where it counts, dupixent helps heal your skin from within keeping you one step ahead of eczema.

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he spearheaded the effort to overturn the 2020 election. now former trump lawyer rudy giuliani could soon play a critical role in the january 6th investigation. the "new york times" reports giuliani's in discussions with the house panel about responding to its questions. we go to nbc's allie raffa who's joining us from capitol hill. what can you tell us about how much of an impact this could have on the committee's investigation? >> reporter: alex, giuliani's cooperation could be the committee's biggest breakthrough yet. as you mentioned, he played a huge role in the efforts to overturn the election results. i want to read to you a response to this "new york times" report by a committee aide saying,

quote, mr. giuliani's appearance was rescheduled at his request. he remains under subpoena, and the select committee expects him to cooperate fully. now, we know hundreds of witnesses have been cooperating and testifying before the committee. but people inside trump's inner circle, people like former aide steve bannon, former chief of staff mark meadows, have been willing to face possible criminal charges to not comply. so, it begs the question why would rudy giuliani, someone extremely close to the president, be willing to work with the committee? "the times" reports that he may be trying to avoid a potentially expensive legal battle in fighting a subpoena or he could be simply trying to skirt contempt charges if he decides in the long run not to talk. here's gop committee member adam kinzinger on what he expects out of all of this. >> he's been subpoenaed, our expectation is he is going to cooperate because that's the law, that's the requirement. same as if someone's subpoenaed

to court. there may be some changes in dates, but we fully expect that in accordance with the law we'll hear from rudy. but, look, regardless of when we hear from rudy or how long that interview is, we're getting a lot of information. >> reporter: and kinzinger added later in that interview that the public hearings for the committee that they had expected to start in the spring could be pushed back potentially to summer, alex. >> allie raffa, thank you so much from capitol hill. we are learning more about the trove of records donald trump improperly took with him to mar-a-lago after leaving office and how they got there in the first place. new reporting from this woman, in part, from "the washington post" takes us inside the, quote, long, strange trip of those 15 boxes, some of which contain documents clearly marked as "classified" including at the top-secret level. so back to that reporter, or one of them, at least who wrote that story, author of the "washington post's" newsletter. jackie, good to see you, thank

you so much. walk us through this reporting. how did all this happen? >> hey, alex, that's a very good question. this conversation between the national archives and former president trump's legal team started in the summer of 2020 and culminated ultimately with the transfer of these 15 boxes, and potentially more from mar-a-lago, the president's palatial summer house in florida to the washington, d.c. greater area where they ultimately landed last month. but, this only happened as a result of a lot of back and forth and reluctance on behalf of the former president to ultimately give up these materials, which technically belong to the american public under the presidential records act. but the conversation turned so tense or fraught, rather, that the archives actually potentially threatened the former president's legal team with sending out a letter to congress or the department of justice, asking the former

president to give these boxes back because he was, again, reluctant to do so. now these boxes are in a secure compartmental area, being protected as the department of justice debates whether or not they're going to commence an investigation. and we've been told by the archives that trump's legal team says they will continue to look for more potential documents to hand over to the archives. >> okay, i'm going to get to the legality of this in just a second. but there was one line from your article that i found particularly striking. that being, trump was noticeably secretive about the packing process and top aides and longtime administration staffers did not see the contents. that seems unusual, is it? >> well, as one archive staffer told us, everything about this is unusual, nothing about this is normal. but, yes, the fact that the former president was secretive about the contents of the boxes and didn't utilize those closest to him to assist with the

transfer and the potential packing of the boxes raises some alarms about a situation that already seems problematic, improper, and potentially unlawful. it's unclear where exactly this material was, who has seen it. but we also know that there are even more questions now that we've reported that some of the documents that were put into these boxes were clearly marked as classified, some of which were top-secret and even above top secret when you're looking at the gradations of potentially a special access project or an sci kind of document. and ultimately when the boxes did come back to the archives, it appears that a lot of trump's aides were at a loss of being able to describe what was in them. and we reported also that his aides asked the archives to put out a statement denying that the reporting that we are doing and we stand by, and the archives

declined to do so, as one person noted to me in a normal situation the aides would be able to put out a statement themselves about denying or confirming this information if they actually knew what was in the contents of the boxes, which right now they don't really seem to know. >> so, legally speaking, i know that in the reporting you spoke to some legal experts on the legality of all this. and if this were to be investigated by the justice department, how difficult would it be to prove intent? i'm curious the kind of legal challenges prosecutors would face. however, i want to read one line, one passage here from your article that kind of gives an indication of things. in 2020 when house speaker nancy pelosi ripped up a copy of trump's state of the union address after he delivered it, trump seemed to exhibit at least some awareness of the presidential records act. here's what he said, in donald trump's words. the quote is, i thought it was a terrible thing when she ripped up the speech. first of all, it's an official document, you're not allowed, it's illegal what she did. she broke the law.

so, it appears there is an awareness about this being a law by donald trump. >> right. and i'm really glad you read that excerpt, alex. because i think that is a key question that if the department of justice decides to investigate the former president's mishandling of these documents, that's a question they're going to be looking to answer, was this negligence or was this intentional? was the former president aware of what he was doing was wrong and systemically wrong and deliberate? or was this like a lot of things that were sloppily done throughout the trump administration, just poorly handled and the process skirted over? of course, there is a very fine line between those two things. but there was a lot of legal handering done this week. there seem to be two separate issues here, one, did the president violate the presidential records act, and if so, how would the archives go

about trying to punish the president because of those violations? and then, two, did the president mishandle classified information, which can be an even bigger legal issue that the president is facing. on that issue of classified documents, there are a lot of people who are skeptical whether or not the department could ultimately prosecute trump for doing this because the legal bar is pretty high here because a president has a lot of jurisdiction and control over classified documents and what is deemed classified and not classified. but there are two important things to point out here. one, he is the former president, and, two, all of these documents have not gone through -- or at least some of the documents that we know of have not gone through the declassification process, and we're, again, still clearly marked as classified. >> it is an in-depth discussion we will continue having as long as you keep reporting on it. thank you. a small setback in the quest to protect young children from covid infections. why pfizer is putting brakes on

its vaccine for kids younger than 5. than 5

the u.s. are dropping dramatically as the omicron wave tapers off. u.s. surgeon general dr. vivek murthy says that's a good sign and it's a sign of what's to come. >> i actually feel quite optimistic about the future. i think we are closer and closer to a phase where we can shift from the virus defining our lives. we may encounter waves in the future, but we have new tools to protect ourselves against them than we've ever had, and that gives me hope. >> pfizer is delaying its request for the fda to approve its covid vaccine for children under the age of 5. the company says it's waiting for more data on the effect of three doses instead of two because it may provide a higher level of protection for this age group. and the fda signed off on a new antibody treatment to fight the

omicron variant. this new drug can be used to treat mild to moderate cases in patients as young as 12 years old. let's bring in an msnbc contributor and founding director of the national center for disaster preparedness at columbia university. welcome, sir, it's good to see you. as i start with your reaction to pfizer rolling back their request for the fda to approve their covid vaccine for kids under the age of 5. what do you think's behind that? >> yeah, hi, alex. sorry, i think my picture's a little frozen here. but here's the point. this is a little bit of, you know, vaccine drama here. we have pfizer out of the blue repealing, pulling back their request to the fda to get this emergency approval for vaccine for children under the age of 4 and under. and this is a problem because many parents were expecting to be able to get their young children protected by as early as next week, and now we probably won't see that approval coming before april.

and part of it has to do with how the testing was being done, how many children were being tested and whether two shots or three shots were going to be needed here. so, we'll wait now to see what the results of further testing are. hopefully within the next couple of months we'll get those younger children protected. and we really need to make sure that happens, alex. >> so, just digging into the why behind this. look, the fda was able to fast track the approval process for all the other age groups. does it indicate to you that vaccinating kids under 5 is not not urgent, or does the young age present some unique issues? >> well, i think it's pretty urgent. you know, we have millions of children under the age of 4 who need to be vaccinated who aren't eligible so far. and we really won't be able to get to the levels of vaccine acceptance for the entire american population till we're able to get all the age groups

including for children under 4. so this isa setback. but we also need to be aware of the fact that lots of children are still testing positive, many are getting admitted to the hospitals, and we had just last week 21 deaths in children. so, there's a matter of protecting kids. but also a lot of those children may get infected without much in the way of symptoms will go home and potentially infect people who are vulnerable, older people, people with pre-existing conditions and so on. so there's all kinds of reasons why we'd like to get this done. and i think there was a little bit of overexuberance about making this happen sooner rather than later. >> dr. gupta said the world can enter an endemic stage. do you think so? >> not yet. i think the attitude at this point is we're hoping for the best, and it'd be great if we

enter that in april. but it could well be that we'll get another variant or two, and we have to be very well prepared in case that happens. i hope he's right, and i hope i'm wrong, but we'll see what happens. >> okay. here's something that's just downright confusing. mask mandates are loosening up. you've got several state mandates, they are expiring. four states are no longer requiring masks in schools. but there are still federal mandates and then local mandates in some places. you see my point here, it is confusing. so how are people going to know when and where they should wear a mask? >> well, this is mandate madness really because we have a potpourri of rules, regulations and guidelines starting with people that are, let's say, working for the federal government or are in the military. in that case, the federal government can mandate whatever it wishes. but for most people who are in communities and states with varying rules and regulations about mandates, it's absolutely

confusing. and a lot of us are thinking that the governor, some of them may be acting prematurely because covid is dropping like mad, of course, across the country. but there's another what's called subvariant of the omicron that may be out there as a potential threat. it's called the b.a.2 subvariant. and i think we remain in this period of uncertainty. but i'm hoping the governors have not rushed to judgment here. but we're just going to have to watch this very, very closely. >> if you're in a situation when no one around you is wearing a mask but you say i'm going to wear one anyway, are you still protecting yourself and others around you? does one-way masking work? >> well, certainly if you're a high-risk individual, if you're older, if you have pre-existing conditions, if your immune system is compromised, yes, you definitely want to be masking as

much as possible, especially indoors and around other people. do we get the full benefit if we're really seeing community spread? and this is the key here. if we're seeing a lot of spread in the community, then it's really important for everybody to be masking in certain conditions, like indoor spaces. if we're seeing very, very low rates of covid in the community, then the masking for everybody's not so important. on the other hand, it really is important that we continue masking children in school till we have a lot more kids vaccinated, both the 5 to 11-year-olds as well as hopefully soon under 5. >> okay, always appreciate your advice. thank you. it has been four years since the country's deadliest school shooting, and a renewed push for stricter gun laws, a survivor of the parkland, florida, attack, joins me next. joins me next.

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tomorrow, valentine's day marks four heartbreaking years since the nation's deadliest school shooting. a gunman opened fire, killing 17 students and teachers at marjory stoneman douglas high school in parkland, florida. that shooting sparked a national movement for gun reform led by the teenage student survivors at that very school. but today gun violence remains a huge problem in the united states in schools specifically, the issue growing to troubling new heights this past year, according to a new report from every town for gun safety, there were at least 136 instances of gunfire on school grounds between august 1st and december 31st, nearly four times the average. joining me now david hogg, one of the leading voices and co-founder of march for our lives. welcome, david. i'm so glad to be talking with you. first question, though, out of the gate. how are you doing on the eve of this anniversary? >> um, thank you for asking.

i'm doing better than i have been in previous years. i know for many of my friends, it's not the same story, though, because we continue to see these things happen again and again nearly every day in this country. >> yeah. well, one thing you've done of the many, you have helped to lead perhaps the largest movement for gun control this country has ever seen. what are the changes that you have seen in the past four years, david? >> you know, not as many as i would have liked to have seen, but still a considerable amount. we changed gun laws at the state level in florida in the immediate aftermath of the shooting at our high school in parkland, florida, which was a deeply, deeply republican legislature with a hardcore nra support. we showed how survivors showing up and leading can change things in the first place. on top of that, we saw changes to the amendment which previously barred a lot of our research into gun violence prevention, a considerable increase in the amount of funding to do research on gun violence prevention, and a

number of gun laws across the state are changing. unfortunately we've seen at the same time, though, especially since the pandemic, a massive rise in the number of guns that have been sold and a corresponding increase in the number of gun deaths. >> and, coupling what you've just said here with listening to those statistics here at the top, an increase of gunfire on school grounds, how frustrating is it for you, david, to know lives are being lost, families and communities being shattered, people living in fear because of inaction in this country to take action on gun control. >> yeah, it's incredibly frustrating. but what's actually even more frustrating to me is -- which are the stories of kids that experience gun violence in their front yards, they don't get on the news and have these conversations a lot of the time because it is that common. and both of them, whether it be a shooting in somebody's school or a shooting in somebody's

front yard, are result in part of political inaction and injustice in this country. so it's deeply frustrating. because it shouldn't be on young people to say that we have a right not to be shot when nearly every other high-income country has figured out how to do this, even the ones that have guns in the a significantly less gun in the first place. it's deeply frustrating and especially frustrating considering the fact that there are things that president biden can do right now that he has left on the table, just creating a national director of gun violence prevention and doing a number of other things. >> what is it about this country, though, you think gives us these horrible statistics as compared to so many, any other country in the world? what is it about the mentality of americans? >> you know, i don't know if it's necessarily about the and show up armed at our protests. my dad was a gun owner and many

of my family members are gun owners. the thing that i think stops us from acting on this is they don't want democrats and moderates to have because it increases gun sales and the support that they get from groups like the nra and when they say they want to take their guns away and do all the different things and the reality is we don't want to be shot in our schools and communities on a daily basis. >> easy thing to ask. i know you said you're doing better, but to you still have trauma around that horrible day? >> yeah, i think everybody in parkland does to some extent in one way or another but different levels. the closest thing i can get to closure is living my life and being a student and realize taking care of myself along with my other friends and classmates and teachers living their lives to the best of their ability is a form of resistance but the other thing what would really be

closure to me i think these things not happening any more. which is why it was so disappointing in 2019 president biden came to a gun violence prevention summit that we had and iwatched an interview that we did with him. we need to protect gun manufacturers from lawsuits, we need to repeal that only to see merrick garland go on and i don't want to see president biden come on tv after this, unfortunately, something like another parkland happens and there are things he could have done in the first place regardless of what is happening in the senate and filibuster. >> david hogg, i have a lot of respect for you and the fact that you survived in such a positive way. thank you. one big aspect to the china olympics that is unimaginable and you might think it will never happen. a report that will not only suggest will it happen again

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just ask your asthma specialist about dupixent. so, it's been missing amid the action until today, snow. it's the first snow since the games began. but so much has fallen that one event today was canceled. until now the games have gone on with manmade snow and reporter of sky news shows us why that's raising concerns about the impact on the environment. >> the beijing alps as and you see and know, there's not much snow, a rather important element for winter games. beijing is incredibly dry. it gets less annual snowfall than london so all the snow at the games is artificial. much of it came from the water in this reservoir. this whole area is as dry as dust, but this reservoir is a

frozen oasis in the mountain desert. the water is underneath this ice are used to supply beijing because it has very little but recently diverted to create snow for the winter olympics because otherwise they would have none. putting a winter olympics in a place that it doesn't snow using energy intensive machines like this leaves some to question the green credentials. >> these are the most unsustainable games ever held because so much cost to the water issues and water availability and even to the destruction of the local and nature reserve. >> others complained about the air sight saying it looks dystopian. that's probably unfair. this was once a huge polluting steel workers now a residential and commercial site. the source of development that would be applauded in other cities. but the international olympic committee does understand the impression the bare mountains give viewers.

>> obviously, you know winter sport and we have to acknowledge that what you see on the screen might be disturbing for some people but the chinese actually doing and delivering this winter storm with in mind. rebuilding the venues or repurposing five venues from 2008 to using for the first time ever 100% renewable energy to using low-carbon mobility. >> climate change means beijing won't be the last winter olympic city to rely on fake snow. snow from a reservoir rather than the sky may become the new normal. sky news, beijing. >> also sounds kind of weird. meanwhile the pump, pageantry just hours away but a cloud of controversy hanging over the game that could forever change the nfl and it's ahead.

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