play in regional domination. hitler used it as a pretext to invade poland, to protect ethnic germans who lived there. on september 1st, 1939, that is how world war ii began. the rest of the world, subsequently, decided, wisely, that that's not how things should work. countries don't get to just roll over other countries because they feel like. it or they have some grievance, or they believe that it was once their domain. and that is what the situation is all about. it's not about ukraine joining nato, it's not about nato expanding toward russia. it's about whether people have the right to decide who governs them, or not. decide who govern them, or not good morning, it is sunday severe in the 20th i am ali velshi. tensions remain high in eastern europe right now as russian forces continue to surround the northern and eastern borders of ukraine. this, despite the fact that

russian president determines putin and kremlin officials continue to deny that anything is going on. but they claim that western states are causing hysteria even as putin oversees a new color drill. as russian troops stage a mock battle. all indications and reports coming out of ukraine, the russian regression is in fact real. president biden said friday he's convinced that russian president biden putin has already decided to invade ukraine. british prime minister boris johnson has since weighed in as well, warning that he believes that putin's plans in motion. if it is carried out it could lead to the biggest war in europe since 1945. the foreign ministries of france and israel have issued warnings for its citizens to leave ukraine. these developments are due to the intensifying violence in the donbass region of the ukraine. these us where many of the incidents and skirmishes that you've been hearing about have been happening. this is not russians fighting ukrainians fighting. this is ukrainians finding

ukrainian rebels allied with russia. these ukrainian rebels control the donbass region. there are the danya people to the south. they are both split off. they declared independence from ukraine back in 2014 but they are not internationally recognized there is supposed to be a cease-fire agreement in place but the reports have been that there are many violations of the cease-fire. shelling has increased tenfold in the region. just yesterday, ukrainian -- or on a routine press tour of the area when they were interrupted by shelling. last week, the leaders of luhansk and donetsk called for full military mobilization of their people. while also ordering residents to evacuate east to russia. russia's disinformation campaign also involves the donbas. on friday, putin called what was happening in the donbass today, genocide. to be clear, he is talking

about russian-speaking people being killed in eastern ukraine. there is no indication of a genocide happening in the donbas, nor has russia presented any evidence of that. but it does present a reason for russia to invent ukraine. russia's post invasion plans are quote, the united states have contained intelligence that the russians planned to -- russian dissidents living in exile should move forward to plans to invade ukraine. by the way in this instance, when they say targets, they mean arrest or assassinate. the stakes are high. the ukrainian president, vladimir kalinsky is continuing to try to find a diplomatic resolution. at the security conference yesterday, he even proposed meeting with putin. president biden did not attend the munich security conference this weekend. he will be convening a meaning of the national security council today, to continue

discussions of russia and ukraine. for more on the latest here is me now is nbc reporter erin maclachlan, joining us live from kyiv. erin, what is the situation? >> russian president vladimir putin and french president emmanuel macron have concluded their phone conversation. it lasted an hour and 45 minutes. described as the palace as a last ditch attempt to over a russian invasion. we do not have much more detail on it than that. russian media is reporting that a potential visit of macron to the kremlin. another visit, he was just there. although that has not been confirmed by the alleys a palace. this morning, the belarus defense ministry has extended its joint exercises with russian forces. these exercises have been taking place just hours from

the ukrainian capital where i am, in kyiv. they were supposed to have concluded today. but now being extended. what is being seen as another ominous sign that this situation is deteriorating. what is for happening in the eastern portion of ukraine, continued artillery fire throughout the night. we have seen some doubling, more than doubling, of the cease-fire violations in recent days. i was just speaking to a ukrainian military expert who tells me that the ukrainian military has been ordered not to provoke the situation. but they have been returning fire in some cases. the issue being, if they do not return fire, the situation could escalate even further. it is an extraordinarily tense situation with the ukrainian president saying that just one cannon fire, one artillery round, could potentially trigger a broader war. ali. >> erin, thank you again for your great reporting.

we will be talking to you a lot, and mclaughlin msnbc in kyiv, ukraine. >> joining me now the former u.s. united nations. sports person and advisor for the terrorism and financial intelligence for the department of the treasury. good to see you, thank you for being with us. you are the person when i turn to when i try to understand this complicated world of sanctions, and what can be done to prevent this invasion. or to punish russia for this invasion. if i want to start there with you, there are all sorts of sanctions on the table. sanction timing is important, when trying to prevent a war. how do we think about this? what's sanctions should be imposed now, what's should be wait for until vladimir putin, if he invades, does that. >> ali, you have it right. usually when the united states governments and other partners imposing shuns, typically it is in response to nefarious behavior. right? usually we wait for the invasion, for example.

or violence, or whatever it might be. it does not mean that we do not have the legal authority to impose unilateral sanctions now. we can clearly see that russia is destabilizing the situation. they could go ahead and do that. what i would expect the national security council meeting to be discussing today 's are there some set of sanctions we can use to deter behavior, it's perfectly fine. it is not often done. we could do it. things like that could include, tough sanctions still! sanctions on russian state owned banks. other russian financial institutions. on technology that the united states is allowed, at the moment, to russia. right? things like this that would have a very deep impact. have a very concerning role in russia. i want to underscore that i am concerned with the rhetoric around sanctions coming from the united states, in europeans. there seems to be this top, and by the way, the ukrainian president. that the sanctions could be the silver bullet here.

they can't! they could be very tough. they could have very harsh consequences in russia. there could be some blow bank towards the united states, europe, global gas prices. they will not be the silver bullet. they need to be matched better with a real discussion on defense measures and other military issues. >> why are they not a silver bullet? russia has spent the last silvery years diversifying whereby things from, where it solves things to, what its currency reserves are? can they sub stan sanctions like you can't sell your natural gas to western europe? can they sustain the idea that they can trade in dollars? >> that is a little bit part of it. there has been a lot of talk about russia, saying that they were sanction proofing themselves. i have never heard of that term before. i do not think anyone at the u.s. treasury department use of that term. it is a very, very, difficult thing to thank shun proof yourself. you can set yourself up so that sanctions may not hit you as hard. that is what russia is doing.

they have converted a lot of their dollars to robles. setting up all these trade agreements with china. to ensure that someone is there to buy the oil and gas if europe turned away from them. they are doing certain things to shield themselves. but it isn't possible for any country, even north korea the most isolated country, to completely shield oneself from sanctions. russia, unlike a country like north korea, is very heavily integrated into the international financial system. that works to their benefit, particularly the oil and gas industry. that also is a point of leverage that they have over europe, in particular. here up imports 40% of its oil and gas from russia. that is a huge chunk! that nord to pipeline that germany has built. that pipeline is completed in a waiting to start operation. that pipeline could bring in 50% of germany's gas at a very cheap price. this is a very big deal. russia could cut off all access points to euro. europe would need to move in an

instant in a scenario like that. very quickly, importing gas from elsewhere. setting up the infrastructure to do that. that would cause not only a crisis for europe, but it would cause gas prices to skyrocket around the world, right? the reason i say sanctions are not a silver bullet is because a loan is not enough to change behavior. they have to be part in parcel of a broader strategy. the biden administration knows that. you can see them pursuing the communications strategy, the relentless diplomacy. they are talking about military questions. the bottom line here is, you're going to need a mix of really tough sticks, and some kind of compelling carrot, to get putin to change his calculus. i am excited about the sticks being ramped up over the last few weeks. especially with the announcement of the nordstrom to being sanctioned. i could not see that compelling carrot yet? >> how do you handle a carrot

as the whole thing being based on the nonsense that there is some obligation to protect russians features outside of russia. what carrot can you give someone when they literally just want to take over another country? >> hunted percent! listen, this is a terrible situation. russia is completely the aggressor here. they are acting crazy, right! this is 2022. we do not invade countries. when you are dealing with any national security situation, i've dealt with many of them over my ears and government. you are always dealing with a series of bad scenarios. a series of bad options. you need to pick the least spent one. unfortunately, that is how it works. i faced myself when we were handling syria. is it better, here is the question, that we need to be asking to impress or. that we learn from world war ii. you never appease an aggressor, right? you have to show this united strength. we are trying to do that with europe. in order to back the oppressor up. into indicate that the war

would be too costly. putin did not enter wars he thinks he can't win. he only enters wars he can win. we need to communicate that it will be costly, right? the thing is, is it better that he take more land in ukraine as he is currently threatening to do. he could militarily do. is it better, for example, to find a way to sit down and talk about some of these military issues that have been lingering since the end of the cold war. finding a common ground. by the way, this is the job of the united nations, and they are not doing it! maybe in private but i find secretary general antonio guterres, he needs to step it up! >> good to see you, thank you for joining us this morning. former spokesperson and communication director for the u.s. mission to the united states and former treasury official specializing in sanctions. a grand jury in texas has reportedly indicted 19 austin police officers for their use of force during treatment of

protesters protesting police brutality. president biden -- the trump white house to the january six committee. i will talk to congressman and committee member jamie raskin. plus it is our third velshi band book club meeting. we are taking on a third classics to kill a mockingbird. you may have read it in on an english or perhaps it was pulled from the shelf in your school that year. a members have a lot to say about it! this is velshi. this is velshi to connect. rethinking how we communicate to be more inclusive than ever. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change. faster. vmware. welcome change. ♪♪ three times the electorlytes and half the sugar.

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unprecedented legal action against a group of police officers accused of misconduct during the nationwide unrest over the murder of george floyd. a texas grand jury had reportedly indicted 19 austin police officers for their use of force on treatment of protesters who are ironically denouncing treatment of police brutality. -- multiple indictments would be forthcoming. the officer's attorneys told

the austin police association 19 officers would be indicted. almost a dozen people were taken to hospitals from injuries from weapons deemed less lethal like rubber bullets and beanbag rounds. those beanbags are filled with led, fired from shotguns. they can do a lot of damage. the 19 officers will be placed on administrative duty until the cases are resolved. district attorney jose garza said the details and covered in the investigation aren't disturbing. >> a thorough investigation was conducted before our offices presentation to the grand jury. the fact discovered during that investigation or disturbing. first, we believe many protesters injured by law enforcement officers during the protests were innocent bystanders. >> grandeur's are conducted in secret. many of the details and the identity of the indicted

officers have not been made public. austin police chief joseph sharpton denounced the indictments and defended his officers. >> the size, scones, a tenor of the crowds was underestimated by management. officers were prepared for hundreds, when instead they faced thousands. placing them in potentially the worst possible circumstances to manage escalating crowds. >> chief chuck cohen also said he is not aware of any conduct, given the circumstances, that would ride to the level of a criminal investigation. the same day of the indictments the austin city council approve settlements worth a combined $10 million into civil lawsuits that were filed by protesters who were injured by austin cop during the same protests. justin howell, anthony evans, underwent emergency surgeries for a fractured skull and fractured jaw, according to lawsuits they filed against the city in the police.

howell who will receive $8 million, with nearly killed, sustaining brain damage when the austin police allegedly fired bean background directly at his head. the largest settlement amount ever paid for a use of force case in austin's history. austin's mayor steve adler reacted to the news this morning saying, something went wrong here. no one should ever be injured exercising their constitutional rights. former trump speaks to staff mark meadows has received thousands of text messages from his cell phone illustrating a clear picture of what happened here from january six, the select committee is taking a look. are you tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean? what if your clothes could stay fresh for weeks? now they can. downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters keep your laundry smelling fresh

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once upon a time, at the magical everly estate, landscaper larry and his trusty crew... were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. knock knock, who is there? well, we still don't know! president biden has ordered the national archives to give up visitor logs from the trump white house to the committee investigating the january six

insurrection. former president, the current record holder for being the most impeached president of all time. trying to hide them by claiming it was held by president -- it's not clear whether visitor logs might show or how extensive they are. the trump white house routinely flouted federal record keeping laws, designed to document the presidents day to day activities and whom he met with. as the select committee weeds through those records, the most comprehensive account to date of what actually happened january 6th, and the weeks leading up to it. it is giving us a brand-new perspective that may have otherwise been lost to history. this golden paper trail lives in the form of thousands of text messages on this man's phone. former chief of staff, mark meadows. the washington post said that many were sent to meadows by fox news host, lawmakers, and other trump allies urging him to get his boss, cocooned in his private room just off the

oval office, to put a halt to the assault. what president trump was doing in that cocoon is a critical piece of what the committee wants to know. it's democratic congressman elaine luria believes that these tax are a key to the investigation. others say this is evidence of president trump's to premier election of duty. all of this information coming in, more subpoenas are rolling out. over 85 people and groups that are linked to the riot have been ordered to come before the committee so far. joining me now is democratic congressman jamie raskin, for maryland. he is on the committee investigating the january six incident. thank you for being with us. >> it's good to see you, ali. >> let's talk about ... you are now in a better position when you were the lead impeachment manager to close some gaps. finding out what is missing. it's not just that you are -- you are able to see with what

is missing the more information you get. several hours of phone calls january 6th that we don't have detailed information on. but you know about them. you have heard organ evidence from people who may have been on the other side of those phone calls. who are cooperating with. you tell me about this, what are you looking for? how will it help you? >> trump and the most global comprehensive view of what was taking place. there were a lot of people involved in the political coup dimension of this. the attempt to overthrow joe biden's 360 majority vote in the electoral college. get mike pence to rub the electoral college votes. kick it all into the house of representatives for a contingent election. there were people involved in the violent insurrection dimension. trump was egging them on, inciting them, continuing to promote their activities to.

when we see from all of these texts is there were a lot of people just on board for the coup dimension of it, who were freaking out about the violent seizure of the capital. the injuries, the death, the takeover of that congressional proceedings and so on. this demonstrates the while a lot of the people who are trying to whitewash the whole thing we're absolutely astonished and flabbergasted and upset about what's taking place. trump was really the one at the center of the whole maelstrom of activity. >> what is your best sense of what you're going to get out of this? are you going collecting a much as you can, there are some people who said that they will not participate with the committee. they will not hand over documents. but do you think happened? was he making phone calls on a different phone, someone else's phone, on a private line? it's not possible for several hours on january six, who had this global view of what was going on, and allegedly was

orchestrating some of it, was not talking to anybody. >> right. there were clearly different communication instruments. we are chasing all of them down. this was not only the violent insurrection to take place at the capital of the united states against congress and against the into vice president. it was also perhaps the most documented episode of political violence and an assault on democracy in our history. we are pulling in all of the tax. all of the phone call information. the visitor logs the messages going back and forth. the tv appearances. the facebook live appearances. all of the pictures and video footage that were being created by the participants themselves. we are going to put it all together. it might not be 100 percent report. the closer you get to trump and his entourage, the more

sandbagging in obstruction we encounter. for the vast majority of people involved we have had a lot of cooperation. we will be able to tell a lot of this story. >> that is kind of how it works. getting into the head of how it works. by all accounts, people investigating large corporate crimes are investigating organized crime. you can tell the remaining non participants, we know the story, we would like you to fill in the blanks. even if you don't, we have enough information. >> yes. they have an incentive to try to, you know, exonerate themselves as much as they can by telling their side of the story. we have seen people coming forward. saying you are not seeing the whole picture. this is what my experience was. in general, we are seeing remarkable cooperation. we will be able to get to hearings that tell the story in a completely digestible and comprehensive way. the american people will know what took place, and we will document the weaknesses in our

political system that allowed it to happen. we will be able to fortify our democratic institutions going forward. that is really the whole thing. we do not want to be vulnerable to political coups in violent insurrection's going forward. >> obviously, mark meadows is someone that would know a lot about this. we know the people communicating with him. the other person being very close to that global view would be ivanka trump. what can you tell us about where you are with ivanka trump? and you're thinking and whether she should be called to testify. >> i cannot go to the specific details of that. i will say that the committee members are of one mind that everybody shows us their honest and truthful testimony. the supreme court has repeatedly said this. when congress comes calling for information, it is the court calling for information. everybody has got to testify. everybody has to turn over what they know. i have every reason to believe that she will participate, like everybody else will,

eventually. people think they might be incriminating themselves with an answer, they have a right to assert the privilege. i have seen the fifth amendment privilege more in the past month and i can believe. i probably heard the fifth amendment mentioned more than the first amendment in my lifetime now, with all of the people asserting the fifth. we are interested in protecting the rest of the constitution, including the fifth amendment rights. it is the rest of the constitution that the committee is out there to defend and uphold. >> congressman good to see you as always. thank you for joining us. jamie raskin, democrat of maryland. on the january six committee. ahmaud arbery's killers are back in court, it finding out what role race may have played in his murder. high commissions, right?

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hello, how can i? sore throat pain? ♪honey lemon♪ try vicks vapocool drops in honey lemon chill for fast acting sore throat relief ♪ahhh!♪ wooo! vaporize sore throat pain with closing arguments in the federal hate crime trials against the men convicted of murdering ahmaud arbery are

expected to begin tomorrow. prosecutors allege that travis miss michael, his father greg mcmichael, and his former neighbor william bryan targeted and hunted arbery based on his right. violated his civil rights when they try to legally detain him. all three men have pleaded not guilty in the federal case. they deny that race had anything to do with their decision to arm themselves and chase arbery down and pick up trucks. they claimed he thought he was a burglar. they claim they were simply trying to carry out justice. we covered the terminal trial and its implications at length last year. you may remember that it was that case that threatened go off the rails when the presiding judge allow the defense to turning to arbitrarily eliminating many people of color from the jury pool. i lawyer for brian expressed kept us-ism over the pool of potential jurors, saying it lacked white men over 40 without a four-year college degree. you may also remember that that

same attorney actually demanded that the judge demanded black pastors including msnbc i'll sharpton witnessing at the trial or coming to support arbery's family. but a few details may have said by in the whirlwind coverage of that trial. according to insider, ahead of the criminal trial prosecutors asked the judge to introduce the confederate flag license plate on travis mcmichael's pick up truck. -- quoting arbery quote, like a rat. the judge dean travis mcmichael's confederate license plate admissible in ahmaud arbery's -- asking to use text messages and phone records that used bryan and the make muscles racist bent and racist intent. according to the associated press travis mcmichael quote, previously used racial slurs in a text message and on social media. and quote. on -- the lead prosecutor in the

original trial choose not to use this evidence. even without it, she was able to prove that ahmaud arbery did not have to die. and the three were found guilty of murder. this federal trial called all of the -- up to review. the messages and comments that they sent online were being introduced for the first time. travis michael had called her and and were lover for dating a black man. greg mcmichael has alleged to have said blacks or nothing but trouble i wish they would all die. and quote. all three men are currently facing life sentences for the murder of ahmaud arbery leading some people to wonder why this rights trial is even going forward. the attorney for arbery's family for this take with the reverend al sharpton last night. >> i applaud the suitable rights division leader in the department of justice, kingston clark for having that

conviction to say, based on the evidence, based on the evidence we have to have this lynch mob convicted of federal hate crime laws for ahmaud arbery, who was jogging while black. >> host of the sunday show, this was already an interesting trial of the first time it happened. but this federal trial is definitely going to get a lot of attention. it gets more to the heart of the matter than a criminal trial does. >> oh, absolutely! seeing those text messages, ali. hearing the comments that they have made. i completely can fought about the confederate license plate. hearing all of this evidence. ali, if it looks like a dark and it sounds like a duck, it's probably a doc. i know that isn't how the law works by, come on! if ever there were examples of someone who is perhaps, bent with racial animus, this has

got to be it. ali, earlier this week speaking of lynching, and what happened to ahmaud arbery, i traveled to mississippi. i met with interior secretary deb haaland, who was touring several sites related to the lynching of emmett till in mississippi in 1955. we will be airing that emotional interview this morning. my exclusive sit-down with california governor gavin newsom. who spoke about everything from the states covid plan to proposals to get guns off of the streets, loosely modeled on the contravention will texas abortion law that the courts that go into effect. imagine having an iphone in 18th century wets africa and posting every moment of your life. including being sold into savory. we will tell you about a unique way that history is being told through the eyes of a young boy in 1756. all of that, and more.

in just minutes on the sunday show. >> that's amazing! i'm looking forward to seeing that my friend. you have a full show, starts at the top of the hour. jonathan thank you the johnson show 10 am eastern. all right, it is our third ever meeting of the velshi band book club. we are covering secretly band to kill a mockingbird. one that you asked for. no matter what your political affiliation or you're voting record, you can probably find something to hate or love about this book. find the right tech solutions. so you can stop at nothing for your customers. i've got moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fever,

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kill a mockingbird, the protagonist six-year-old scout reflects on how crucial reading and books are to her. saying quote, until i figured i would lose it, i never loved to read. one does not love breathing. it is ironic that this line is founded one of the most frequently banned books in our nation's history. one that so many of the velshi band book club members requested that we covered. you asked, and we answered. to kill mockingbird, written by how poorly is by all accounts a classic. winning the pulitzer prize among other owners. the story takes place in the fictional town of macomb, alabama. in the midst of the three depression -- centering around atticus finch, scouts widowed father as he depends a black man accused of raping a young white woman, much to the disapproval and shock of the town. mockingbird follow scout, a

young white girl as she grapples with the realities of racism. also delving into the roles of gender, the loss of innocence, and the law. to look at to kill a mockingbird from a plot perspective, to void of its contacts, being banned so frequently by so many decorations, is to miss it significance entirely. motivated parents and emboldened school boards have been called to be removed from library and bookshelves since its publication in the 1960s. many have called for the book removal for the use of racial slurs, one word in particular, the n-word, appearing 40 times. arguing that racism is not condemned harshly enough in the novel. atticus singe embodies a toxic white savior role in the book. others take issue with the frank to pick shun of rape and nexus violence. is the book right with so many painful elements and arguably

lacking what's thumb peoples opinion by today standards is it by today standards worth reading in 2022? the velshi ban book club member sent a thoughtful and insightful answers to the question. one viewer, the author of two black teenagers saying that she reads their assigned books along with them. she argues that to kill my convert should not be read in schools. the n-word is throughout the book. no person of color, especially a child should have to read that word. it is dehumanizing. although it is used in most novels written by people color, it is a very different in a white authors novel. use of this word has given permission to kids in the class to use the word, because they do not understand the effects on other kids. this member of the book club goes on to argue that there are other novels by black novels by -- jim crow south more effectively. another viewer argued that to kill a mockingbird has an inherent value and every child

educational development. this viewer taught the book for 30 years in her ninth grade classroom. with racial injustice, bigotry, and inequity still inherent in our current america i think examination in analysis makes contrast in this novel even more valuable. how far have we come? black students offer much insight in personal knowledge to this discussion, if willing and comfortable to share. the debate about this book is nuanced. to kill a mockingbird is many things, including a courtroom novel. many legal struggles have critically evaluated tom robinson's trial, and atticus as a lawyer. including our next guest. a muddy pair was amongst a group of scholars who re-visited a group of scholars in 2018 revisiting the classic tax, characters and setting through a interdisciplinary law in humanities lands the result was a collection of thought-provoking essays called reimagining to kill a mockingbird harper lee was notoriously an interested in

critically examining her own works. even if she was available from beyond the grave, an interview with amani perry is deeply going to prove more dynamic. we will speak with her next is y we will speak with her next is y going to ♪ your dell technologies advisor can help you find the right tech solutions. we will speak with her nex so you can stop at nothing for your customers. up at 2:00am again? tonight, try pure zzzs all night. unlike other sleep aids, our extended release melatonin helps you sleep longer. and longer. zzzquil pure zzzs all night. fall asleep. stay asleep.

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nearly a decade ago, a group of scholars got together to rethink "to kill a mockingbird". the result was a collection of critical essays called "reimagining to kill a

mockingbird." imani perry, professor of african american studies joins me now for our second meeting of the velshi banned book club. professor perry, good to see you again. thank you for being with us. i'll start with the obvious question, we had so much input from our viewers on this particular book, on both sides of it. the idea it is not required, shouldn'tedd reading for high school students and it should. what is your thought? >> my thought is that it is worthy of engaging. i think the question of what is included in the curriculum is always a vexing one because there is a limited number of books you can read in the term. but i do think that the -- what it evidences is that it has all of these relevant issues that people feel passionately about. it does the thing that literature is supposed to do. it excites the imagination, it engages people in critical

thinking and it also is a subject of debate. and so it has value. whether it should be on every curriculum or not. that's a local question. but it is certainly ought not to be banned. >> so we had a lot of people come in and didn't like the race element in it and some viewers thought it was simplistic, others didn't like the prevalence of the "n" word. you write, the work pushes forth a humane ethethics. we know what is wrong and right by the emotional work of the text, better than by the rule of law, or the logic of atticus and it is boe who beats back the evil. it is gem who rages. they're not compliant with the rules of their race and gender and they witness the cost of becoming a man like their friend

boe and far greater than the social cost to atticus of defending tom robinson. i think point you're making is that you can reimagine it based on the way it is written. you don't have to take it at face value. >> absolutely. what lee is she shows layers of vulnerability and then she talks and she also makes very clear what are the moral failings. we have the accuser who is a poor white woman who is seen as inferior because of her class. she makes a false accusation that is morally problematic and yet we also see the suffering of the poor in that community. we see the disability of tom robinson. his physical disability, part of how we know he could not have committed the crime. bradley who is experiencing some kind of cognitive or mental disability, kept away from the public. there are all these layers of suffering, in addition to racism. and what lee does is expose how the society that is structured

as a jim crow order actually is structured to stratify everyone. and that is meaningful lesson, even though i have some critiques of the novel, as many do in terms of the failure to show the deep inferiority of the black characters, atticus is a complicated hero, not a tidy hero in the way we often see him. he's a proceduralist, believes in the rule of law, but isn't particularly excited about defending a black client. that's also, i think in many instances was -- >> you talk about the failure to examine the deep -- of the black characters. that's common of writing of that era and common of white writers. i would argue that it is still common today. so how do you -- what should change, if "to kill a mockingbird" were rewritten today, wait you said let's reimagine it, how would you get to that interiority, the

complexity of black characters, so it doesn't come across to readers as simplistic. >> rather than change the text as is, i would suggest we supplement the text. there are other works of literature of the same time period, written in the '50s and '60s. this was published in 1960 and even more contemporary that actually shows another perspective. so we could take something as recent and as brian stevens' just mercy" which takes place with his client falsely accused in 1987 in the same town that harper lee grew up in. and so the issues continually you see a different lens, you can take some charles chestnut who wrote about the wilmington race massacre of 1898. i would say we supplement, we tell a full story, use the text and talk about, is this effective or isn't it effective? perhaps it always is necessary to read books like this which are historically bound and deal

with difficult topics with a contextualization so students really get the context and don't just accept it at face value. >> what a great example, talking about humanizing people who would be difficult for most people to relate to. he does such an excellent job of making you empathize with the characters in his book. atticus tells his children, by the way, i know i don't have much time, to -- they have to walk in the shoes of others before they can judge them. do we know that to be less true now? can white people really walk in the shoes of black people? can straight cis gendered people walk in the shoes of transgendered people or gay people? is that too sophisticated to ask? >> well, i don't know that people -- one can walk in the shoes of someone else, but i think it is an amorally righteous position to take that you have to imagine the perspective from another -- you have to imagine another perspective, you have to imagine what it is like to be subject to this diminishment. so i do think it is a meaningful

lesson, particularly for young people to take from the book. >> we're out of time. but we could talk for hours on this. we appreciate your time. and the analysis that you provided. imani perry, professor of african american studies at princeton university "reimagining to kill a mockingbird" contributor and very importantly the author of a number of books including the brand-new book, a must read "south to america: a journey below the mason dixon to understand the soul of the nation." drum roll, please. our third "velshi" vaned book club is the new york times best-seller "dear martin". justice begins writing letters to martin luther king jr. after experiencing a violent incident with a police officer. this is a ripped from the headlines examination.

pick up a copy at your local bookstore or neighborhood library. join us next weekend for an honest discussion with the author nick stone. email your reactions, comments and questions to velshi.com. that does it for me. thank you for watching. catch me every saturday, sunday morning, 8:00 to 10:00 a.m. eastern. "the sunday show with jonathan capehart" begins right now. "the sunday show with jonathan capehart" begins right now a last ditch effort to avoid war. president biden meeting with his national security council today amid more signs russia could invade ukraine at any moment. my exclusive interview with california governor gavin newsom, on his new covid policies, his bold move to take on the gun industry, and his message to democrats on the culture wars. >> i think we always need to be a little cautious at this moment. recognize whatre