getting up way too early with us on this monday morning. i look forward to seeing you on saturday and sunday at noon eastern time. meantime, stay where you are because "morning joe" starts right now. >> i know him relatively well and the conversation started off. i said i know you and you know me. if i establish this occurred, then be prepared. >> he said, you know he doesn't have a soul. >> i did say that to him, yes, and his response was, we understand one another. i wasn't being a wise guy. i was alone with him in his office. that's how it came about. it was when president bush has said i looked in his eyes and saw a soul. i said i looked in your eyes and i don't think you have a soul. he looked back at me and said, we understand each other. look, the most important thing dealing with foreign leaders in my experience, and i have dealt with an awful lot over my career, is just know the other guy. >> so you know vladimir putin. you think he is a killer? >> uh-huh, i do. >> that's president biden, march of last year calling vladimir putin a killer.

as putin now prepares for war with ukraine, this morning a possible new chance for diplomacy. we understand possible. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, february 22nd, president's day. i'm willie geist. joe and mika have the morning off. with us, mike barnicle and katty kay on a busy president's day monday morning. let's dive in. in a last-ditch effort toward diplomacy, a summit has been agreed to to discuss the ongoing crisis in ukraine. the office was made late last night by the office of french president emmanuel macron after he spoke with biden and putin separately. according to macron's office, the two leaders have accepted the meeting and it would take place only, only if an attack on ukraine does not take place. but white house officials say a final decision on such a summit would be made only after further talks between secretary of state antony blinken and his russian

counterpart sergey lavrov who are scheduled to meet on thursday. in a statement white house press jen psaki writes, we are committed to pursuing diplomacy until the moment an invasion begins. currently russia appears to be preparing for a full-scale assault on ukraine soon. the united states is warning it has credible information moscow is compiling lists of ukrainians to be killed or sent to camps following a military occupation. that assertion was made recently in a letter by the u.s. ambassador to the united nations. the kremlin says u.s. media reports that russia has drawn up such lists is a, quote, ab absolute lie. they say they have intelligence showing russian military

officials were given an order to invade. here is secretary blinken on "meet the press." >> it certainly looks like everything we said was likely to occur in the lead-up to the actual invasion is happening. we are seeing false-flag operations taking place in eastern ukraine, the manufacturing of provocations and justifications for russia to go in. so all of this seems to be following the script that i laid out at the united nations security council and that president biden talked about to the nation just the other day. >> as tensions escalate, president biden yesterday held a rare weekend meeting of the national security council, conferring with top advisers including secretary blinken and defense secretary lloyd austin. meanwhile, at the munich security conference on saturday ukrainian president volodymyr zelensky urged the united states and allies to reveal their plans for sanctions against russia to serve as a deterrent and warned about the dangers of appeasing the russians. russia continues to keep 30,000 troops in neighboring belarus meanwhile despite earlier

promises to withdraw them by sunday. satellite images released over the weekend suggest smaller russian deployments but also show they are continuing to move closer to the border with ukraine. nbc news has not independently verified those images. we have reports from both russia and ukraine this morning. nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmonds is in moscow and nbc foreign correspondent matt bradley is in ukraine, 25 miles from the russian border. good morning to you both. matt, let me start with you there along the border in ukraine. what is the feeling right now about whether this may be imminent, despite all of the talks and the potential for this summit between biden and putin, which still is a long way off, what is the feeling among the ukrainian people on the ground and ukrainian officials about whether and when this may happen? >> reporter: yeah, i mean, willie, it is a good question and something i have been talking about ever since i got here a month ago. it is really remarkable the massive disconnect between what we're hearing internationally

from washington and we're seeing on the ground. yesterday at this hotel where i'm staying at, again, 25 miles from the border, there was a massive children's dancing competition in the hotel. so about 700 children from all over ukraine, their parents felt like they could drive them to within 25 miles of the border with russia and they felt confident about it. you know, it is really interesting because the fact is, you know, it is this hubris, it is this defiance? no, they're just used to it. it is a war that's been going on for eight years and ukrainians feel as though the threat has always been there and it has never gone away, but that is belied by the facts on the ground here. just across the border there are a huge number of armaments that are moving around. we are starting to see tanks, mobile howitzers, jets and helicopters that are arrayed across the border. that was, as you mentioned, from max technologies which has been tracking it from the beginning.

we are starting to see from max r and other groups monitoring them from the staging areas into what looks like a battle preparation mode. that has been very threatening. the government is sounding the alarm on that. also to the east of where i am in the two separatist enclaves that are russian backed, we are starting to see a real uptick in the tempo of fighting. we are starting to see a massive exchange of fire from the russian-backed separatists and the ukrainian regular military. two ukrainian soldiers were killed over the weekend and there's been dozens of incidents, sort of violations of the terms of cease-fires that have been recorded every single day and that number is increasing. i expect we will start to see more and more of that as this week goes on. you know, i was speaking to a ukrainian diplomat a couple of weeks ago and he told me as long as the diplomats are talking, the guns are silent. but the fact is, willie, that as long as the diplomats are talking the guns are moving.

they're moving into place. they're trundling all around the border. you can practically hear them from where i am, and it really just goes to show even as, you know, these discussions keep going on and on vladimir putin is moving guns into position for a potential invasion. we can see it from the satellites. it is very clear. willie. >> yeah, matt, i saw that video you posted to social media yesterday. it was extraordinary. children's dancing competition with parents cheering them on like it was any other sunday, and yet there are 130,000 russian troops just over the border, potentially poised to roll in. keir, let's talk about the russian side of this. president macron came out yesterday and said, yes, i have laid the ground work for a summit between putin and biden, contingent on russia not going into ukraine. the white house poured a little bit of cold water on that says, well, let's see, we have to let blinken and lavrov talk first and maybe there would be a summit down the road. there is a sense putin is playing games here. what is your sense of it?

>> reporter: well, willie, i think diplomatically speaking, you heard matt there talk about the changes on the ground in detail, the daily changes. diplomatically speaking nothing has really changed, and that's the issue. those negotiations that president macron is trying to push, i guess they can delay things, certainly we may see a delay until secretary blinken and mr. lavrov meet later this week, if they do indeed meet. maybe there will be a delay until president putin and president biden can meet. but the reality is that fundamentally ukraine, the ukrainian government isn't going to start implementing minsk and the russians have been building dollar reserves for years and years going back to president putin's famous speech in munich, they now have $630 billion more than in reserves. when you look at that, that pretty much tells you that president putin has been preparing for this day for many,

many years. why i say that is because when the secretary of state talked on "meet the press" yesterday he talked about massive sanctions. to put it in a visceral sense, fundamentally president putin isn't frightened. he's not frightened because his inner circle are already sanctioned. they can't leave russia. he's not frightened because he has those reserves and he's not frightened because he knows potentially he might be cutting off gas to germany, maybe a massive cyberattack. that's explains why there's a huge risk because once conflict starts, you don't know what direction it may go in. so, of course, it is important that there continues to be efforts for diplomatic talks but we are really in the last chance i think. >> katty, you are in paris this morning and president macron served as a mediator. he spoke to president biden, he spoke to president putin twice

yesterday, before and after his call with president biden, and, again, laid the ground work. he didn't set up a summit yet but laid the ground work for a possible meeting between the two. how realistic does it look to you from where we're sitting this morning? >> reporter: you know, it is interesting, willie. there's a strong push here in europe, and i have been here for a couple of weeks, to really see diplomacy as far as it will go, to not accept the idea an invasion was inevitable. i think that's why we saw president macron on the phone with vladimir putin for a couple of hours, then on the phone with joe biden and back on the phone with vladimir putin last night trying to arrange this summit in order to give diplomacy a chance. we have heard that the german chancellor will speak to president putin this afternoon, again, trying to present a coordinated effort between western allies, showing it is not just president macron going out on a limb, they want to make it clear it is the germans, the brits, the french and the u.s.

in this effort to give diplomacy a chance. but keir is right. signs are not good this morning. they quickly throw cold water on the realistic prospects of an imminent summit between joe biden and vladimir putin, and all of the signs on the ground are things are moving in a military direction. it would be interesting to hear from matt. matt, we are watching things change. we have these fascinating satellite images, fascinating social media images we are seeing from the ground there. what will be the trigger that you look for to tell us that we've got beyond kind of movement of troops towards an invasion and something that is actually a war in ukraine? beyond the war we've had since 2014. >> reporter: it is a good question. definitely that pretext that is almost certainly going to be happening in the east of the country, in those two russian-backed separatist enclaves. that is what antony blinken was warning about. he was saying basically everything he predicted is

starting to look like it is true. these exchanges of fire are really ominous and threatening. the ukrainian regular military, they're under strict orders not to return fire unless it is absolutely necessary because all they have to do is start killing some of these russian separatists and then that will give vladimir putin his pretext to invade. now, vladimir putin has already said time and time again that the russian-speaking population of ukraine is oppressed. they're even the victims of genocide, he said that in just the past week or two. either he believes that, which i find hard to believe because we were out there and saw no evidence of anything like a genocide, or he just believes that the russian-speaking people of eastern ukraine will rise up and back his army as they have in the eastern part of the country. i'm in karkiev which is a russian-speaking city. people here are in russian, not ukrainian. these people are not united behind vladimir putin. some certainly are, but the vast

majority support the government in kyiv, so vladimir putin believes he will get support just because they're russian speakers, i think he is mistaken. >> keir, i understand that this is a difficult question i'm about to ask you. you are not permanently posted in moscow, but you are certainly familiar with moscow. you have been there several times and you have sources in moscow. do you get any sense at all that putin, being isolated from reality, isolated from former advisers that used to see him more often than they see him now, and, most importantly, the tenor, the tone of the russian people about the pending war russia seems to be about to undertake? >> reporter: well, i think your question about the russian people, the russian media just in the past few days has shifted more towards -- you could call it a war footing. so there's clearly an effort to persuade the russian people that what might be about to happen should happen. then in terms of the question about president putin, listen,

the coronavirus has had an impact on his contact with a wider community, if you like. i was talking just a few days ago to an adviser to an oligarch who was saying where in the past president putin might have seen this oligarch once a week, maybe every few weeks, it doesn't happen anymore. then there is a very small coterie of advisers around president putin, and we are talking about a handful, who he is able to talk to on secure lines and most all of them are former kgb. they are very hard line in the main, and they are the people that are advising him, strat strategizing with him. yes, he is isolated. i think his view could be limited. it could be there were aspects of things that he doesn't understand. but that being said, i think we do have to be cold eyed about

this. for example, when president putin made the moves he made in relation to syria many years ago, many in the west said, that's not going to work, that will be a problem for him, that's going to be a disaster and it wasn't. so i don't think we should underestimate the extent to which president putin and the team around him are looking at the overall situation, making an assessment, making a judgment, and from their perspective, from their logic they may have some things right. again though, and this is really crucial, if we do now end up, if we head into a conflict, into a war, war is unpredictable. no one, vladimir putin, president biden, no one has the ability to say exactly how it plays out. >> great perspective this morning from keir simmonds in moscow, matt bradley in ukraine, 25 miles from the russian border. thank you so much. we appreciate it. china meanwhile paying close

attention to the situation in ukraine as it cements closer ties with russia. "the new york times" reports it this way. current and former u.s. and european officials say they are alarmed over what is effectively a nonaggression packet between china and russia that could amount to a realignment of the world order. you remember vladimir putin made a great show of attending the opening ceremony in beijing a couple of weeks ago. joining us, former chief of staff at the cia, department of defense, nbc news national security analyst, jeremy bash. jeremy, good morning. you are just back from the munich security conference where president zelensky of ukraine effectively admonished the west and said, you are appeasing russia, don't do it again, you have done it in the past, you did it in 2014, look where it got us, don't do it again, looking for a more aggressive stance from the west on things like sanctions. what were your impressions being there and how close do you think russia and ukraine are to war this morning? >> well, willie, at the conference there was an eerie

feeling because similar mere zelensky, as you know, left his home country basically staring down the barrel of a russian invasion. he said i will have breakfast in my country, i'm coming to this conference in germany and i will have dinner in my country. people were nervous whether he would get back, whether russia would stage a military assault while he was away so everybody breathed a sigh of relief when he got home. i think his presentation showcased a deep concern about the russian invasion that's pending. at that point president biden had announced to the world putin had already made the decision to invade, that he can given the order to invade to his forces. zelensky said, look, i need help, i need help from nato, i need your backing, i need your financial backing, don't abandon ukraine. that was the overriding message and it was a message of unity at this security conference, willie. in some ways i have gone going to this conference for many

years and i have never seen so much unity, so much sense of purpose from the western allies. >> jeremy, we have been hearing for well over a week that an attack is imminent, that the invasion by putin into ukraine is imminent. president biden said it again a couple of days ago, we heard it again from secretary of state blinken. we are getting new reports that nbc now has confirmed "the washington post" report about a potential kill list of ukrainians if russia does go in. we have seen the satellite imagery of the troops on the border. do you believe it is a fait accompli? is putin definitely going into ukraine one way or another? >> look, i think the intelligence that president biden announced to the word is obviously accurate, which is that president putin has made the decision to invade ukraine. now, what i don't think we know with absolute precision is the extent to which the invasion will push all the way to the major cities including to kyiv, the capital. we don't know exactly precisely the timing. of course, that's a tactical decision that putin will make with his military commanders. do i think it is reversible?

unlikely, but i got to give the biden administration credit because their position is, hey, we will talk to you as long as there's no invasion. if there's an invasion, we're not going to validate your invasion by symmetry. >> yeah, blinken and lavrov meet on thursday. we will see if they make it that long without an invasion. jeremy, stay with us. much more to talk about on these fast-moving developments and we will talk to pentagon spokesman john kirby. many questions for him. first, the national ar archives determines classified material was found at donald trump's florida home. that is sparking calls for an investigation. more ahead on "morning joe." investigation. more ahead on "morning joe." welcome to the eat fresh refresh at subway

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♪♪ beautiful live picture of washington. it is 6:23 in the morning on this president's day. the national archives has confirmed white house records that were improperly taken to mar-a-lago at the end of the trump administration did, in fact, contain classified material. the former president returned 15 boxes of white house documents to the national archives in january, and the agency now says it has, quote, identified items marked as classified materials in the boxes. they have asked the justice department to investigate. the former president released a statement which reads in part, if this was anyone but trump there would be no story here. hillary clinton would like a word. the national archives told members of congress the trump white house did not properly preserve records from some of its social media accounts, specifically deleted tweets and snapchat posts from the

president and several top aides. joining us "washington post" national security reporter covering the justice department, matt zepatosky. thank you for being with us. you have been on the story from the beginning covering it closely. how significant a development is this and what happens next to the former president? >> we had reported about a week ago that there was classified information in these boxes, information that was, in fact, marked classified at the top secret level and above. so in some ways this is just confirmation of what was already out there, but the public conversation itself is significant because it is going to increase pressure on the fbi, on the justice department to say something and do something. when classified information slips out into the world, generally the fbi at a minimum wants to go and get that back, get that in sort of a secure facility and also understand how did it get there. they don't like classified

information out in the world as this was until, you know, several weeks ago. so the fact that the archives is now sort of saying on the record, saying in a public letter classified information was in there really ups the pressure on the fbi and the justice department to get involved here. >> matt, about that pressure on the fbi and the justice department, where are we on this? this seems like an endless investigation. we see stories in the papers each and every day, including the fine story today in "the washington post", and yet there's a sense within the justice department among some people that things are proceeding too slowly, there's not enough activity for the public to see someone basically in handcuffs as a result of this. >> well, i think there's sort of separate things you might be talking about. on the archives matter we haven't really seen the justice department do anything. the archives, as we understand it, is going through and indexing these files. the justice department, at least as far as we understand it right

now, hasn't opened any kind of investigation. i think sort of relatedly just because we are talking about former president trump there is a lot of pressure on the justice department to investigate him for all manner of things. i think most notably that would be his comments on january 6th, his efforts to overturn the election, and you are right that there has been a lot of frustration generally on that that the justice department isn't going right at members of his inner circle to learn details about the pressure campaign or details about his sort of attitude or involvement with regard to his speech on january 6th. so those are kind of two separate things, the archives matter and then all of these other things, but they're of a point which is that many people in the public, particularly on the left, are frustrated that the justice department just has been unwilling to investigate directly and aggressively the former president. >> katty, there are two pieces -- >> jeremy, is that -- >> what they're saying here,

number one, that the records are incomplete, they didn't get everything they needed from the white house and, number two, he did, the president, in fact take classified documents to mar-a-lago. >> yeah, look, we've seen a pattern of the president ripping up documents within the white house himself, which he shouldn't have been doing because white house documents are government records and they certainly shouldn't have been removed down to mar-a-lago. i guess the big question a lot of people have is what is the cumulative impact of what the national archives just said about the documents going to mar-a-lago, about the investigations that are being held into the president and into his businesses as well. i mean, jeremy, how much pressure to mike's point about this being broader than the justice, new information from the national archives, how much legal jeopardy is donald trump in at the moment given there are these two grand juries in new york and in georgia. is he seriously facing the kind of legal consequences many

people in america think he perhaps should have faced a long time ago? >> i don't think we have any idea, katty, and don't believe anybody who tells you they know because grand juries are by their design secret. with respect to this latest issue, with respect to the classified information matter, you know, ordinarily you would think, yes, what doj would do is they would open a full-field investigation. they would begin to subpoena records, gain access to documents and interview witnesses. this investigation probably would go on for a very long time. doj doesn't do anything in a matter of days or weeks. but whether or not there's a cumulative effect, i don't see that. i think these are running on separate tracks. i personally think the place where the trump organization faces the most legal liability is with respect to the financial investigations that's being undertaken in new york. as to whether or not anything ensues from the january 6th fake

elector matter, i don't think doj has said anything. >> we will see if the justice department moves on this one. jeremy bash, always good to see you, my friend. thanks for being here. "washington post" national security reporter covering the justice reporter who has been all over this story, matt zapotosky. thank you for joining us. a jury will hear testimony in the hate crimes trial of the three men convicted of murdering ahmaud arbery. we will have the latest from the courtroom. chaos breaks out after michigan and wisconsin, their basketball game yesterday, started by the coaches and a closed-fist punch from michigan's head punch former nba star jawan howard. we will tell you what happened here when we come right back. wk

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♪♪

welcome back to "morning joe." 6:34 at the white house this morning. a busy day there. we will get back to that story in a moment. meanwhile, an ugly scene in college basketball yesterday when a fight broke out during the postgame handshake line after the michigan/wisconsin game. michigan head coach jawan howard, a former nba star, a member of the fab five back in the day, was upset that wisconsin called a time-out late in a blow-out game after some heated exchanges, howard punched a wisconsin assistant in the head. players and staff from both sides then got involved. lots of pushing and shoving. in his postgame press conference howard did not apologize for the incident, saying he reacted to someone putting his hands on him. quote, at that point i felt it was time to protect myself. the big ten conference said it planned to take swift and appropriate disciplinary action when it completes its review. while michigan athletics director ward manuel said he quickly apologized to wisconsin

officials for what he called the totally unacceptable behavior and that the school would review the incident more thoroughly. you can expect a long suspension there for howard. major league baseball officially announced spring training games have been delayed. on friday the league said the games, originally slated to begin this saturday, will not start until march 5th at the very earliest. team owners and the players union continue to negotiate a new collective bargaining agreement. the side met just six times since the lockout began. "the washington post" reports according to sources, mlb told the union they would need to come to agreement by next monday to ensure the regular season starts on time, which is march 31st. they are scheduled to meet later today. mike barnicle, if the deadline is monday to get the regular season online it looks a little bleak. you are plugged into both sides of this story. what more can you tell us? any chance they get the games going on time?

>> well, there is a chance, willie. first of all, it is inexcusable that the lockout of the players occurred in december 2nd and they didn't have any really functional meetings for weeks on end. that is inexcusable. so you can take -- basically take a month of time and set it aside where they did nothing. now they're down to it. they're supposedly going to meet every day this week, and it depends on which owners show up at these meetings. if more sensible owners show up, there's a possibility that they could get a deal. the big hangup is what they call service time of younger players in major league baseball. are they awarded free agency or a path to free agency after three years or two years? it is a complicated thing. now, there are several owners in major league baseball who wouldn't mind not playing in april because they indicate that they lose an enormous amount of money in april at games and, you know, some cities where the weather is not great. but they're going to have to deal with that. the big thing though, willie, is to my mind -- and i think to the

fans' minds -- is they have yet to address even in the back and forth about these meetings anything having to do with the pace of play of baseball. baseball is a diminishing sport in terms of popularity, largely because the games are too long, three hours and 15 minutes could be an average time of a game. the games start too late. they start at 7:10, 7:15. there's no reason why they can't, other than tv coverage, start at 6:00 or 6:30. but they have not yet addressed those issues that make the game more attractive to people to go to the game, knowing they're not going to spend six hours there. >> yeah. >> so we're going to see. it is a big week. a big, big week. >> you're right about pace of play. it is a tough sell to a kid, even who loves baseball like my son, in this era where they have phones and video games and everything else. that pace is stuff and, as you say, it can be four hours to watch a game. man, these contracts a lot of these guys just signed, mike, right before this lockout took place, guys making $43 million a

year, your average fan is looking at this and going, you're going to miss games because you're not getting enough money? it is a shame nobody down at the major league headquarters and players union can take a step back and see the long-term damage to the game. >> giving the money they make and they don't lead ordinary lives, that's one big thing. basically this is a war between billionaires, the owners, and millionaires, the players. that's in the stratosphere. i mean they don't realize the impact they're having on people who really love baseball and look forward to baseball. that's sad. it is sad. >> still ahead here, brian flores lands a new job in the nfl just weeks after suing the league for racial discrimination, and he is headed to pittsburgh, not as a head coach. how does that impact his lawsuit against the league? we'll discuss that next on "morning joe." we'll discuss that next on we'll discuss that next on "morning joe."

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6:43 in the morning at reagan national airport in washington. officials in that city are preparing for the likelihood of a trucker protest like the one we saw in canada coming to the united states capital. nbc news reports capital police are considering reinstalling a fence around the capitol plex ahead of president biden's state of the union address. police believe a copy cat trucker protest may occur during the speech. you will remember a security fence was in place for months after the january 6th attack on the capitol. a statement from the uscp reads in part, quote, the united states capitol police and the united states secret service have been closely working together to plan for the upcoming state of the union. the temporary inner-perimeter fence is part of those ongoing discussions and remains an option, however, at this time no decision has been made. as officials prepare for protests in the united states, one of the largest trucker

protests in canada is nearly over. the ottawa police tweeted last night, anyone left within the protest may be arrested. the weeks-long demonstration in the canadian capital began as a fight against vaccine mandates and has cost the united states and canada millions in lost trade. the vast majority of american truckers do not need to be vaccinated against covid-19 unless they are crossing an international border. so, katty kay, we are seeing this in canada, likely to see it in the united states. i know there have been similar protests, maybe not with trucks, but against the mandates across europe where you are. are they falling away a little bit as some of these restrictions go away? >> reporter: yeah, we're in a super interesting moment in the pandemic, aren't we, willie? because you've got on the one hand these extremely angry protests that have really disrupted ottawa and yet here in europe basically everybody's lifting restrictions. boris johnson has said the restrictions in the uk even to

self-isolate if you test positive for covid are about to go. here in europe other countries are going to follow suit, denmark has already done it, sweden has done it. life is getting back to normal for a lot of people. there was a lot of people about vaccine mandates, but when the french government pushed vaccines, you can't do anything in france without a vaccine, you can't go to cafes, museums or anything else without having a vaccination, it worked. so you got the vaccination numbers up really high. those strict provisions the french president put in place had an effect getting people vaccinated. restrictions are being lifted, travel is normalizing, yet you still have people in canada and the u.s. where vaccination rates are lower in the u.s. than in many european countries still angry about getting pushed to be vaccinated. >> we have seen in the last couple of weeks here in the united states a wave of the mandates going away, mostly in

blue states following the lead of some republican governors. the pittsburgh steelers hired brian flores on sunday less than a month after the former miami dolphins' coach sued the nfl and three teams over alleged racist hiring practices. flores, who will serve as senior defensive assistant for pittsburgh, said while he has returned to coaching in the league he will not abandon his lawsuit. the steelers are head by mike tomlin, one of the nfl's longest tenured black head coaches and one of three to lead teams last season. let's bring in nbc analyst charles coleman. so much to talk about, but let's touch on this. brian flores hired by the pez burg steeler. of course, mike tomlin, a legendary coach in the nfl, a black head coach, it is the team that instituted the rooney rule nearly 20 years ago. what do you make of this and the decision of flores to continue to pursue his lawsuit while hired by the steelers?

>> good morning, willie. first and foremost i think flores is doing the right thing. people have to understand what brian flores has alleged is a class action suit. on one hand he has been employed by the pittsburgh steelers but it doesn't change the allegations he made in the suit. secondly, i want to put it in this perspective. a civil rights icon once said if you stab me in the back six inches and pull the knife out three inches you have not given me justice. what i mean to say here is while the nfl might like to say from a wizard of oz perspective, don't look behind the curtains, there's nothing to see here, what we all need to understand is that him being hired in this case does not change the fact he was discriminated against regarding another opportunity. so that needs to be understood. so he should go forward with the lawsuit. i don't think that this impacts this. i think the fact that he has been hired now does not negate

the fact he was likely discriminated against then. >> one of the more interesting aspects of both the hiring and brian flores's suit against the nfl is that there are people who can quibble with flores's demeanor, there are people who can quibble is flores's coaching techniques, and that has happened in both instances. but to know people who really know brian flores, nobody ever quibbles with his sense of character and integrity. going forward, this is going to be really interesting to see it play out because brian flores is going to stay with this i would think. >> i would agree. i think he is going to stay with this. i think kind of in many ways it is somewhat unfortunate that now that flores has brought this lawsuit, he is going to be undoubtedly under a greater level of scrutiny than any other coach in the nfl in this regard, not necessarily with respect to wins and losses but with respect to his character and conduct. i think that's one of the

downsides flores knows going into this that he has to be prepared to deal with. >> all right. charles, let's move on to closing arguments, set to begin today in the federal hate crimes trial of the three white men convicted of killer ahmaud arbery in georgia, a 25-year-old black man killed while jogging near brunswick, georgia, two years ago. the three men chased arbery through their neighborhood in trucks after spotting him running by their homes in february of 2020. the three men cornered arbery and travis mcmichael fatally shot him with a shotgun. in november they were convicted in a state court of felony murder and other charges. so, charles, you have been following this closely. this is the federal hate crimes trial, that aspect of what we've seen. they've already had the criminal trial. what do you expect to see in closing arguments and where do you believe it is headed? >> i think, willie, what we will see in this case is an emphasis on some of the other aspects regarding race and hate crime

that we did not see emphasized by the prosecutor during the state trial. one of the reasons for that is because the elements for a conviction are very different in this case than they were at the state level. so there are going to be nods that are given to the text messages that were uncovered and the other different pieces that the prosecutor had to put out regarding race and how it played a role in the decision to murder ahmaud arbery. i expect a lot of that which will have a different tone when compared to what we heard from the prosecutor on the state prosecution level, and ultimately i do think that the doj has put forth a solid case. i would be expecting a conviction here but i'm not taking anything for granted. >> we will see. meanwhile, a minnesota judge on friday sentenced former police officer kim potter to two years in prison, far less than what was sought by prosecutors, in the fatal shooting of black motorist daunte wright. hennepin county judge virginia

chu ordered her to spend one third on supervised release. it was less than what was sought by prosecutors because the officer was trying to use her taser and not her gun. the judge said she knows her ruling will be unpopular. potter has been in custody since just before christmas last year after being convicted. this is the case where the officer reached for her taser. she thought it was her taser, pulled out and discharged it and it was her gun, killing daunte wright. what do you make of it? >> i want viewers to consider this. had daunte wright been a lawfully armed civilian who made a mistake and shot and killed kim potter who was off duty and then received this sentence, the public would be outraged.

we have a lot of conversation around black lives matter, but when you see a sentence like this handed down by judge chu it is so unfortunate because then the question becomes if black lives matter, how much do they matter in this situation. in this situation the use of a downward departure in sentencing is not called for. if anything, kim potter being a 26-year veteran of the brooklyn police force warranted a higher sentence because the public trust is violated when police officers and law enforcement make mistakes like this. i said on many occasions that we are dealing with a toxic police culture in america and you cannot change culture without accountability. this sentence that was handed down is a slap on the wrist and a slap in the face of accountability. before anyone brings into the conversation, well, what about derek chauvin, derek chauvin being sentenced in the way that he was is not the exception to the rule. he is the exception that proves the rule. there's still an issue with

regard to police accountability in america for wrongdoing or for in this case mistakes that result in the loss of human life. so i find this sentence to be wrong. i find it to be unfortunate, and i hope that, you know, it is appealed. >> and it has been baffling since the beginning. by the way, too many in law enforcement that a veteran officer could mistake her taser for her firearm. charles coleman, thanks so much. covering a lot of ground for us. charles, thanks so much. >> thanks, willie. >> we appreciate it. coming up next, new reporting on russia's plan for ukraine, including reported kill list for those who oppose a military occupation inside ukraine. we will talk to a "washington post" reporter who first uncovered those details. that's next on "morning joe." ".

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just before the top of the hour, the united states capitol, a live look on this monday, february 21. katty kay is still with us. joe and mika have the morning off. we begin with the situation playing out overseas. u.s. intelligence shows russian military officials have been given a green light to invade ukraine, but america's leaders are trying to buy some time. president biden and vladimir putin have agreed in principle anyway to a summit to discuss the situation as long as moscow does not go ahead with an invasion. the white house already pouring a little cold water on that. this morning the kremlin doing the same. nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin has the latest for us from ukraine. >> reporter: a barrage of artillery fire increasing in war-ravaged donbas with more than 1,500 explosions in the

last day. across the border, hours from kyiv, a sign that the russian forces may be there to stay indefinitely. the belarusian president allowing them to remain. >> we are talking about the pony potential for war in europe. let's think about what we're talking about. >> holding a meeting with the national security council. >> there's an option for him to pull back. that's what we're trying to do, prevent a war. >> reporter: as french president emmanuel macron made a phone call to putin. putin blamed the escalation on ukrainian forces and called on the west to respond to his demands for security guarantees. >> there is no such plans. >> reporter: but on the front

lines ukrainian soldiers say they're already under attack. president zelensky calling for an immediate cease-fire. >> we have already two people dead, 11 people wounded and it keeps going as we speak. >> reporter: inside separatist-controlled donbas, thousands of women and children are being evacuated on buses and trains. they're seeking safety in russia. final destination unknown. i'm afraid because i have two little children, afraid something can happen with them, she says. the men forced to stay and fight for russia-backed separatists. >> men from the age of about 15 or 16 into their 50s aren't let out of the country. this is something splitting a lot of families right now. >> reporter: families torn apart by a warn yet to be declared. in kyiv, people can only pray that this war will end before it officially begins. >> erin mclaughlin reporting for us from ukraine. let's bring in nbc news correspondent josh letterman who

covers the white house. josh, good morning. so you had president macron come out sort of trumpeting he had brokered a summit between putin and the white house. the white house said we have agreed in principle and it is contingent, of course, on putin not going into ukraine so let's wait and see what happens there. this morning, putin himself saying, well, not so fast. we will see if we're going to have the summit. what is the white house saying this morning? >> reporter: this was a remarkable bit of shadow diplomacy by the french president with president macron speaking to putin for what we believe was a conversation that lasted nearly two hours, then speaking to president biden for about 15 minutes, and then once again talking to president putin for a conversation that took place in the wee hours of the night in moscow. then after that the french coming out and saying they have this agreement in principle. as you point out, no one is, you know, putting a date on the calendar yet. i spoke to a white house official late last night who said, let's not put the cart before the horse, we don't have a date, we don't have a

location, we don't have any agreement about the details of what it would even look like. the only thing we have right now is an understanding that if there is no invasion and secretary blinken has a successful meeting with foreign minister lavrov of russia on thursday in europe, it could pave the way for the two leagues to meet. but both the white house and the kremlin making clear this is not some massive break through. it is not like this crisis is over. in fact, u.s. officials, they do not want to get played here by making it look like there's some type of opening for diplomacy and suddenly russia invades, catches the u.s. off guard because it let its guard down. officials say there's been no change whatsoever in terms of russia deescalating. they still think russia is poised to invade at any moment, even possibly while the u.s. is discussing with russia a possible meeting with president putin.

we also know that this has been a real weekend of a flurry of diplomacy we are coming out of, president biden staying at the white house, having a national security meeting, a rare one on a sunday, in the situation room as u.s. officials have been paying close attention to those developments on the ground in ukraine. still leaving out dim hope for some type of a diplomatic resolution here, even as u.s. officials tell nbc news that at this point in time the u.s. believes that putin has already given an order that russian military units have been given orders to proceed down the pathway towards an invasion, the u.s. hoping now that this last-minute diplomacy could persuade the russians to pull back from the brink, willie. >> yeah. katty, that's the bottom line here, which is that the white house and the president, president biden are saying, sure, we're open to a summit to avert a war, but it is contingent on you not going into

ukraine. meanwhile, what we're saying is you preparing to go into ukraine. >> reporter: yes, there's already a meeting on the books between tony blinken and foreign minister of russia, sergey lavrov. they want to get that one out of the way first before they commit to anything from the white house's point of view. i mean why commit to a summit if the russians really are in a position where they're going to go in. there is a difference of opinion i think to some degree here in europe where they want to push for diplomacy more. there's a resistance to the idea that war is inevitable. i spoke to a european official over the weekend who said to me, look, they still don't believe necessarily that this is going to happen, that there is a chance president putin will pull back, which is why you are seeing the european efforts with the german chancellor this afternoon, also scheduled to speak to vladimir putin. josh, it was also another thing that happened over the weekend i thought was interesting on the kind of carrot-and-stick nature of these discussions was that kamala harris at the munich summit was pushed on why the

white house doesn't impose sanctions now. if the white house really is convinced that war and invasion are inevitable, why not slap those sanctions on russia now and make it as painful as possible as soon as possible for the russians to go ahead and invade ukraine? what's the white house's answer to that? >> well, the white house has argued that all of their leverage is these sanctions, and as soon as they impose them they lose that leverage. if they have already punished president putin for an invasion that he hasn't yet proceeded with, then there's really no disincentive for him to go ahead with it because he is already going to get all of those economic ramifications of those sanctions. but there was such an interesting dynamic that played out over the weekend, katty, because we've seen this argument play out here in washington between democrats and the president who have largely said, let's hold off, and a number of republicans who have said, no, we want to impose sanctions now. over the weekend we saw that

split take place between president zelensky at munich and the western european nations with zelensky agreeing basically with congressional republicans that sanctions should be imposed now saying, look, the u.s. has been warning in these alarmist tones for weeks now that we're on the brink of war. if so, why wait on these sanctions? but then we heard from german chancellor olaf schultz and other nato members who said they do not want to do that now. they are making the same argument about the white house's losing leverage, but, frankly, katty, a lot is the fact that the european countries will bear the brunt of the economic costs of imposing sanctions on russia. they don't want to take that step if they don't have to. >> meanwhile, we are just learning that president putin has summoned his security council for a rare emergency meeting this morning. nbc's josh letterman on what is sure to be a busy president's day there at the white house. thanks so much. joining us now national security reporter for "the washington post", john hudson. he was at the munich security conference over the weekend and broke the story last night that

the u.s. claims russia has a list of ukrainians to be killed or sent to camps following a military occupation. john, good morning. what more can you tell us about this list? >> reporter: hey, good morning, willie. it is an extremely ominous piece of reporting that has come in. the united states has sent a letter to the united nations saying that it has credible information that the russians are compiling a list of a number of people, specific ukrainians to be killed or sent to camps. what i can tell you is the letter goes on to explain the type of people the russians are interested in. it says ukrainian dissidents and russian dissidents in compile. it says lgbtq people. it has journalists, a number of different types of activists. it goes on to explain that these are individuals that russia would be interested in kidnapping, forced disappearances or torture.

it is extraordinary in that it, unlike some anonymously sourced allegations, this one has names on it. it is from the u.s. ambassador to geneva and organizations bathsheba crocker. it is sent to the u.n. high commissioner for human rights. what the united states is saying is that it wants to raise the alarm about these allegations and events they believe would proceed following a russian occupation because the u.n. has a responsibility and a job in documenting human rights atrocities. so it is notifying the united nations that there is going to be a wave of human suffering in the aftermath of a russian occupation and it lays it out in detail. >> john, your description of the list and the story today as being quite ominous is quite accurate i would think. also, it fits into seemingly the way the russians have waged war

historically, literally take no prisoners, civilians, civilian casualties mean very little to the russians in terms of the way they wage war. my question to you is a larger one. it is the sense of a man, vladimir putin, seemingly waging war against history. he wants to reclaim the soviet union. in munich at the conference, i am wondering. there's a sense of distance here in america. people don't talk about the war. they don't know where ukraine is. at the conference was there a sense of forboding, a sense of imminence or it is just putin being putin? >> there was an absolute sense of fear and trepidation in munich, specifically among european officials on the continent who in many ways believe it would be such an absurd and really tragic war if

it were to take place, largely because there's an understanding in europe that ukraine is nowhere near becoming a nato member, and it likely may never become a nato member. so if a war were to be started over something that is an unlikely prospect and it involves deaths of tens of thousands of people, might go race flows, refugee flows in the millions, there was a real ominous and real pessimistic view. while we were in munich, that's when the president made his address to the nation saying he believes putin will invade. that cast a real dark shadow over the entire weekend. >> yeah, it is an extraordinary piece. you can read it at washingtonpost.com. national security reporter for the post, john hudson. thank you for bringing it to us this morning. we appreciate it. the biden administration is warning the war on ukraine could have a significant economic impact on the united states, sinking the stock market and

sending the price of gas and other goods soaring. nbc analyst stephanie ruhle has more. >> reporter: a possible invasion thousands of miles away means potentially big impacts for wallets of americans here at home. gas and food prices, inflation and investments all at risk, as the white house tells companies to be on alert for possible russian cyberattacks on businesses and infrastructure and warns of the potential economic effects in the weeks ahead. >> i will not pretend this will be painless. there be could impact on our financial prices. >> it requires sometimes for us to put ourselves out there in a way that maybe we will incur some costs. in this situation that may relate to energy costs, for example. >> reporter: russia is one of the largest producers of oil and natural gas, and western sanctions or retaliation from russian president vladimir putin could disrupt the flow of oil, meaning gas prices in the u.s. could soar, possibly as much as 30 cents per gallon.

that's not all. heating your home could also become more expensive. >> gas prices are going up much more, home heating is going up much more in europe, but because we ship a lot of our gas over to europe our prices are going to go up as well. so, yes, we will be paying more. >> reporter: those rising prices of oil and gas company push up inflation even more, making everyday items including food more costly. that could slow economic growth if russia invades. the crisis is also likely to cause more wild swings in the markets as global investors worry about how a potential conflict will play out, potentially impacting americans' investments. >> so for those who, let's say, were planning to retire this year, start living off their retirement savings, should they be reconsidering? >> i think they might want to pause, just take a look around, see how this all plays out, what kind of damage it actually does to their nest egg. >> reporter: as people brace for the potential economic impacts, experts say the damage will hopefully be short term but warn there are still lots of unknowns

if russia invades. >> stephanie ruhle reporting there. our next guest is recently back from ukraine where he met with president zelensky. joining us how democratic member of the house foreign affairs committee, congressman colin allred of texas. it is great to have you with us. tell us about your visit to ukraine, your impressions of president zelensky and where you think we are right now in terms of being on the doorstep of war. >> well, thank you for having me. we began in brussels speaking with our eu and nato allies, and then went to kyiv and spoke with the president and the defense minister and their foreign minister. you know, i was actually incredibly impressed with the ukrainian people themselves, maybe even more so than their leaders, just the idea that they are united in not wanting to go back to being either a russian puppet or back into the russian orbit. so when i was there, the impression that i got was not of a people that were ready to just accept this kind of an invasion,

but they were already talking about it then and i met a young woman who told me she was going to get her white wine and her gun and defend her country. speaking with her, i believed her. we are seeing that now. we are talking about some real people here who are really going to resist, and their leaders, you know, support and that's what i think we will be giving them. >> congressman, the white wine and the kalishnikov, there's no doubt the ukrainians will fight, there's agreement on that. the question is the weapons mismatch. how long can they fight, how long can they withstand the onslaught of a well-equipped, well-trained, vicious russian army? >> as you know, military to military, there's no comparison here. i will say this though, since 2014 the ukrainian military has made a lot of positive steps. it is not the same military that melted away in 2014 in eastern ukraine and crimea.

they will actually fight. but i think we may end up in a resistance situation here where, you know, there's an ongoing kind of insurgency. that is something that, you know, obviously we don't want to see any kind of invasion, but i don't anticipate -- these are folks who are going on to just accept this. as you said, military to military they won't be able to stand up and there will be serious civilian impacts. i don't know if we are all really prepared for the images that are going to come out of ukraine from this happening. i was there. these are folks who are very westernized. they've got their apple cellphones, they will be filming this, putting it on the internet. we will see this in a way and experience this in a way we have not anything in europe, you know, certainly i think in our history. >> congressman, katty kay is in paris with a question for you. katty. >> yeah, congressman. when you went to ukraine, obviously you took assessment of what the impacts would be on the

ukrainian people. can you put it in a broader context for us? what do you think the impacts of a russian invasion of ukraine would be, beyond what was rolled out as far as the short-term impacts, what would the impacts on europe and the west be more broadly? >> it is such a good question. i think it breaks the post-world war ii peace we have had and puts russian troops, which are already in belarus, on the doorstep of a bunch of our article 5 nato allies who we are committed to defend and who vladimir putin has said in the past he would like to bring back into their orbit. i think you can see a scenario where if this is successful he tries to keep going. so really the entire, you know, kind of european structure is at risk here. i think it is the most dangerous moment, the most dance incident since world war ii for us, not only in europe but around the world. i think it breaks a lot of things. i think it opens a lot of doors. there are a lot of folks

watching, autocrats around the world, thinking, wondering if they can bring those around them back into their orbit to absorb. >> as you can see from the jersey behind him, he played for the tennessee titans. thank you for being here. coming up next, a battle under way in ohio. before the midterm campaign gets going, officials deadlocked over how to draw redistricting map and now the state's supreme court is weighing in. nbc's heidi press bill au explains next. 've got one nbc's heidi press bill au nbc's heidi press bill au explains next. the safer you drive, the more you save.

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comcast business. powering possibilities.™ ♪♪ sunrise over lower manhattan. it is 7:22 in the morning. the ohio redistricting commission could be held in contempt after it failed to deliver new district maps to the state supreme court. the court ordered the commission to submit new maps by friday following two previous proposals that were rejected as

unconstitutional gerrymandering. this is a story playing out across the country. now members have until wednesday afternoon to explain why they should not be found in contempt for failure to comply with the court's order. joining us to explain all of this, nbc news correspondent heidi przybyla. good morning. i know you just came back from the ohio state house where republicans and democrats both agree there is a constitutional crisis coming here. >> reporter: yeah, willie. good morning. the future of lekss and democracy itself really does lie in state legislatures and courts at this point. what is happening in ohio is concerning according to independent judicial experts i talked to. the ohio supreme court is now threatening to hold its over governor in contempt over gerrymandered electoral maps, and the governor's son is on the ohio supreme court, ruling in favor of those unconstitutional maps and still refusing to recuse himself. in ohio a brewing constitutional

crisis over redistricting. >> this is a direct assault on our democracy and ohio voters. >> reporter: a gop-led commission has failed to meet a deadline ordered by the ohio supreme court to fix state maps the court deemed unconstitutionally gerrymandered in favor of republicans. >> it would appear presently the redistricting commission is at an impasse. >> reporter: for voters, that means there are currently no districts for 99 state house and 33 state senate seats and no roadmap for what happens next. the secretary of state is issuing a warning as the clock ticks toward the may 3rd lekss. >> with much to be done in preparation we are dangerously close to possibly violating federal law. >> reporter: the democratic minority members on the panel say republicans are blocking fair maps and trying to run out the clock. republicans say it is impossible to meet the court's standards for fair maps. >> it is not surprising, and we suspected all along this would

be the strategy that they would use. >> reporter: the court had ruled the maps must reflect statewide voting preferences, roughly 54% republican representation and 46% for democrats. now the court must decide what to do with a commission in open defiance of its orders. among the members of the commission, republican governor mike dewine. >> we have an obligation to follow the court order, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not. >> reporter: and among the justices who will decide the consequences for failure to act, the governor's son, pat dewine, who previously ruled to up hold maps approved by his father three times. a dynamic that some say should require a recusal. >> there's no way the son of a governor can sit in a case that will determine the legitimacy of the redistricting where the governor has an interest in

maximizing republican victories in the congressional districts. >> reporter: heidi przybyla with nbc news. >> how are you? >> reporter: governor dewine wasn't interested in talking about the alleged conflict of interest. >> reporter: do you think it is appropriate for a son to be ruling on cases -- >> i never discuss his decisions on case. i haven't talked to him. >> reporter: you haven't talked with him about it? >> i have no comment because i have made it very, very clear, i'm not talking -- i never talk about what he does in court. i never talk about his decisions. so i'm not going to talk about this decision either. >> reporter: in a statement, justice pat dewine asserted as one of seven members on the commission his father has, quote, considerably less influence over the commission than he would have over a department of state government, and added, most importantly, he has no personal interest in the litigation. a decision by the court one way or the other will not provide any personal benefit to him.

>> we have an obligation to produce a map. >> heidi przybyla reporting on a really important story out of ohio. kind of a snapshot of things happening in states across the country ahead of the midterm elections this fall. heidi, thanks so much. still ahead, a growing number of states and businesses are rolling back covid restrictions but the nation's top infectious disease expert is warning against prematurely ending some of the safety measures. we will let you know how that is going over next on "morning joe." t is going erov next on "morning going erov next on "morning joe. crepe corrector lotion... only from gold bond. we hit the bike trails every weekend shinges doesn't care. i grow all my own vegetables shingles doesn't care. we've still got the best moves you've ever seen good for you, but shingles doesn't care.

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♪♪ australia is opening its borders to international tourists for the first time in nearly two years. the country has allowed citizens and residents to come in and out since november, later allowing travel for some international employees and students. business and leisure travelers will be allowed in starting

today. it is a sign the country is moving away from its zero covid strategy, admitting 94 percent vaccination rate in its population, one of the highest in the world. meanwhile, uk prime minister boris johnson is set to lift all of his country's covid restrictions, including not requiring self-isolation after a positive test. sky news correspondent becky cotterill has the reaction from residents. >> reporter: at this new restaurant in stock port, now is not the time to remove all covid restrictions. rachel winter jones will be opening this place as a french bistro next month. it should be an exciting step, but she's also really worried. >> from what i am seeing from the messages that are coming out, it seems like covid is gone and it is freedom day again and everything is fine. because i have had two cancers

and i'm clinically extremely vulnerable, that starts to make me panic. i just worry that, you know, if people think it is okay they won't take any precautions. >> reporter: she says she will need her employees to do regular lateral flow tests, even if she has to pay. >> how much is it going to cost? for my staff, am i going to have to get the tests and it is part of my expenses as everything is going up? >> reporter: as rachel cautiously starts to open, others have mixed views on the restrictions. >> it is about time. it has been one where the rules have been so all over the place it is hard to know what is going on. >> personally i wouldn't want to risk it. so i felt like family, people with asthma are vulnerable. if i had covid i would want to isolate myself. >> i think it is good because you should just live your best life. >> reporter: at this holistic shop nearby they hope scrapping

self-isolation will increase customers. >> i believe we have to learn to live with it. i am respectful and i understand everybody has their own anxiety but life is for living and we have to carry on. >> reporter: how quickly we can carry on returning to normal may depend on how people behave when not bound by the rules. >> our partners at sky news reporting there. that reopening comes as britain's queen elizabeth has tested positive for covid-19. buckingham palace says she is experiencing cold symptoms and expects to do light duties this week. foreign correspondent molly hunter has details. >> reporter: buckingham palace announced queen elizabeth has tested positive for covid-19. the 95-year-old monarch is experiencing mild cold-like symptoms and expects to continue light duties at windsor, the palace not sharing details where she may have caught it.

back on february 10th, her son, prince charles, tested positive for covid, his second bout with the virus. at the time the palace said the queen had seen her son recently. on february 14th camilla tested positive but there was no update with the queen's health. >> it is different from the head of state in the united states who as you know has regular check ups and they're made public. it is part of his or her role as the head of state. our queen here in the uk does not do that. the royal family tend to be more private about medical matters. >> reporter: then on wednesday, the 16th, we saw queen elizabeth greet military leaders in person without a mask, the message to the public she doesn't have it. >> the queen of england at the age of 95, fully vaccinated with her covid-19 shots is still at risk of hospitalization. it is much less if you are fully vaccinated like the queen. what is not clear is what

variant, omicron most likely she was infected with, and could that affect her chances will also be able to get sick and potentially going to the hospital. >> reporter: according to the cdc, people 85 and older have the highest risk of severe illness from covid-19. last october a health scare put her in the hospital overnight and forced her to rest up for a few weeks. but since the beginning of the year, she has been back at work as she ramps up to her 96th birthday and the platinum jubilee celebrations coming this summer. >> katty, it is a busy year for queen elizabeth. we are two months from today from her 96th birthday and molly hunter said there. the platinum jubilee comes this summer, the 70th anniversary of her reign. she is hearty. we hope she stays well. what has been the reaction to not just this story but the news of covid restrictions being lifted in the uk? are most people feeling like it is time? >> to the news on the queen, the

front page is all full of the news she has it but also saying, look, she is carrying on with light duties. it is fantastically characteristic of queen elizabeth, isn't it, willie, that she gets covid and what does she do? she carries on working even at the age of 95. a lot of the british public are thinking she is showing us how to do it. on lifting the restrictions, the prime minister says it is a moment of pride for the british public because the country has followed through on getting vaccinated. and if you get vaccinated, even though there was a huge spike of infections of omicron over the holiday period in the uk, actually the deaths have not been above what you would expect in a normal year during this period. so the prime minister says it is time. some people say you have to have -- urge caution. the most controversial thing about his announcement we are expecting to come up later is that you won't have to self-isolate if you actually test positive for covid. some people, including the prime minister, say, look, you have to

be sensible about this. if you are going in an office people where people are vulnerable, if you are surrounded by people who are vulnerable, take care. if you catch covid, you don't want to infect people who might get sicker than you do with it. it will be an interesting test case to see how the uk respond to this, but the feeling very much in europe is, look, we can move beyond covid as it stands at the moment. >> there's an exhaustion there and here in the united states, and we've seen in the last couple of weeks this sort of domino effect of mandates going away. nbc news national correspondent gabe gutierrez reports on the easing of those restrictions here in america. >> reporter: with the omicron surge fading and covid hospitalizations plummeting, more states, cities and businesses are easing pandemic restrictions, but dr. anthony fauci warning it may be too much too soon. >> there's a lot of pressure and a lot of pent-up fatigue on the people's part about the restrictions, but we better be careful because it is a bit

risky to doing something prematurely. >> reporter: soon every state except hawaii will drop their indoor mask mandates. new york state says it won't enforce a booster mandate for health care workers because of staffing shortages. while both the governors of california and utah say they're shifting to an endemic approach to coronavirus. colorado's governor says the focus should be on vaccinations, not mandates. >> as long as we are stuck in this dichotomy of mandate versus no mandate, there's a lot of americans of all persuasions that react very negatively, rightfully so, to being told they're forced to do something. >> reporter: major companies like carnival cruise line are relaxing restrictions, making mask mandates optional. moon while, dr. murthy tweeted in part, our safety measures reduce risk but can't eliminate

risk after he and his daughter tested positive. what precautions should people take? >> make people as many people around them are vaccinated. even though there are not great masks that fit young children, try to have them with any mask, even if it is a fabric or cloth mask. something is better than nothing. >> gabe gutierrez reporting there for us. mike barnicle, we have had this conversation a lot on the show for the last couple of weeks, including in schools where we have many health experts say now at this point the risks outweigh the benefits of kids wearing masks in schools. but if you look more broadly, this is not a bunch of republican governors doing this now, though they were first. now you have governors of states like connecticut, new jersey, washington, california coming around and saying it is time to move on. >> yeah, you know, i think all of us could take a lesson from queen elizabeth. i mean carry on with common sense. clearly the masks are dropping from coast to coast, and the mandates are being pushed into the background which is the way

it ought to be. but a little common sense is always good to have. i mean the virus is going to do what the virus is going to do, and you can notice now going into restaurants in either new york or washington where i am or boston, where i live, that fewer and fewer restaurants are demanding to see your covid vaccination chart. the masks are not necessarily mandatory in a lot of places. spring is here or on the verge of being here. we will be going back to baseball games and things like that. so things are going to change slowly, but common sense will be a critical component going forward. we will have to live with this virus for a long, long time, but let's do it well. >> well said. coming up next here, public health officials are warning about the relationship between covid-19 and a disease that kills more americans than anything else. that is heart failure. what a new study is saying about that next on "morning joe." s sat

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investigators are still trying to sort out a pair of helicopter crashes happening just hours apart this weekend near popular beaches on opposite sides of the country. both now raising concerns about helicopter safety. nbc news correspondent blayne alexander has the latest. >> reporter: the surveillance video is simply stunning. first, the growing roar of engine trouble. then on the left side of your screen, a police helicopter tumbles from the sky, crashing into the water below. >> airplane crash, newport boulevard at west coast highway. >> reporter: it happened just south of l.a. in newport beach, california, where the officers were responding to a call. >> it was like flipping over and spinning. >> it started losing control and went into a tail spin, came all the way down.

>> reporter: inside, two officers with the huntington beach police department, one released from the hospital, but 44-year-old nicholas bella, a 14-year veteran of the department, did not survive. now the entire fleet is grounded as investigators try to determine what happened. >> we do regular maintenance, ongoing maintenance and there's a schedule that is -- that is comprehensive with respect to the maintenance on our helicopter, so i don't know what occurred. >> reporter: it comes just hours after another shocking crash, this time in miami beach, where a chopper plunged into the water just barely missing the crowded beach. one of the first officers on the scene. >> the location of the crash site actually helped the three survivors tremendously because it wasn't too far into the ocean, it wasn't very deep. >> just off the sand. >> reporter: experts say helicopters are generally safe and crashes like these do not happen often. >> typically you are supposed to be about 500 feet vertically or horizontally away from the

nearest person or structure, but when helicopters are landing or taking off in crowded areas, you know, they're designed for that, then there are exceptions. >> reporter: the ntsb is investigating. >> blayne alexander reporting for us this. the cdc reports more than 6 million american adults have heart failure and public health officials now are warning about a connection between covid-19 and cardiovascular disease. one report in the journal ""nature" shows the risk of heart failure increased by 72 percent in those who had been infected with covid. february is heart health awareness month. joining us now, acclaimed biological anthropologist dr. mayer. she is joining forces with cardiovascular researchers to raise awareness to the treatment of heart disease. thank you for being with us. this is an eye-popping study out of ""nature" that links heart

disease to people who have had covid. how much stock do you put in the study and what can you tell us about it? >> sure. thank you so much for having me this morning to talk about an important issue that is, in fact, a silent crisis. when you talk about 6.2 million adults who have heart failure and it remains the number one cause of death and we still don't have effective treatments for it, it is time to start the conversation. that's one of the reasons that i did, in fact, partner with cytokinetics on this because i wanted to make sure we raised alarm bells and also the awareness of what it takes to really start asking the tough questions in the same way we did for covid and demanding from pharmaceutical companies that we find some kind of effective treatment. we need to do the same thing for this silent killer. >> agreed on that, doctor. let me ask you though. i think a lot of people saw this study and they were alarmed by it for obvious reason. if you have covid, you have a

72% chance of increased risk of heart disease. what can you tell us about that? >> well, it is really alarming. public health officials are saying that, in fact, there is this relationship between patients who have been infected with covid and seeing officials there is a relationship of those infected with covid and seeing a 76% increase in heart failure. we just endured this incredible crisis with covid-19 and the pandemic and we were able to get through it with immense fortitude and resilience and we need to be able to really catalyze that spirit, that skill, in order to find effective medical treatments that are going to address what we're going to see once we get a grip on covid, we're going to be facing a lot of other medical ailments that are going to require that same kind of fortitude to find appropriate treatments for.

>> so, doctor, according to this study, what is the link here between covid and the heart? is it arterial? does it attack the arteries of the heart? we know that covid and like pneumonia, when it attacks the lungs, that could perhaps be fatal because pulmonary lung disease is a tremendous risk to health but what's the link between covid and heart disease? >> so to be very clear, i'm not a heart specialist, right, i'm an anthropologist, but what we have been doing through this cam campaign looking at the fortitude necessary, we talked with all sorts of medical experts. last we held the first town hall which included bloomberg editor michelle cortez, the former

president of the heart association and stanford researchers who are saying that the people most affected as we know are people who have underlying conditions, but the fear that people who are infected by covid and as we can see now with omicron, more and more people are in fact being infected that that risk rising by 72% is a really scary number. >> sure is. thanks so much for being with us this morning. we appreciate it. a follow-up to a story last week, san francisco mayor london breed said they famed our children being recalled to the classroom. >> our children are getting educated that they get back into the classroom and that did not occur. we failed our children. parents were upset. the city as a whole was upset and the decision to recall

school board members was a result of that. >> san francisco mayor london breed on "meet the press" yesterday. if russia invades ukraine, what makes people think vladimir putin will stop there? jake sullivan answered that moments ago on the "today" show. >> the most important thing that the president has done with respect to deterrence has been to send thousands of american service members to poland and romania and to work with other allies to send forces nato allies along nato's east, the areas that border ukraine or border russia. so he has been absolutely clear, the president, that we will defend every inch of nato territory because we is an article 5 commitment to do so and that is a sacred obligation. and if russia chooses to move against new nato country, come further west into nato territory, they will be met with the full force of american and

allied mite. >> pretty clear language there. >> we will talk to press secretary john kirby, many questions for the admiral in just a few minutes when we come back. few minutes when we come back

i know him relatively well. and the conversation started off, i said i know you and you know me. if i establish this occurred, then be prepared. >> you said you know he doesn't have a soul. >> i did say that to him, yes. and his response was we understand one another. i want being a wise guy. i was alone with him in his office. it was when president bush and said i looked in his eyes and saw a soul. i said i looked in your eyes and i don't think you have a soul and he looked back at me and

said "we understand each other." the most important thing dealing with foreign leaders and i've dealt with them a lot in my career, is just know the other guy. >> so you know vladimir putin. you think he's a killer? >> i do. >> that's president biden calling putin a killer. and that's as there's a new chance for diplomacy. we underline possible. in a last-ditch effort, president biden and vladimir putin have agreed in principle to a summit. the announcement was made by the office of president macron. the two leaders have accepted the meeting and will take place only if an attack on ukraine does not take place. but white house officials say a final decision on such a summit would be made only after further

talks between secretary of state antony blinken and sergey lavrov, who are expected to meet on thursday. "we are committed to pursuing diplomacy until the moment of invasion begins. we are also ready to impose switch and severe consequences should russia instead choose war." the united states is warning it has credible information that moscow is compiling lists of ukrainians to be killed or sent to camps following a military occupation. that assertion was made recently in a letter by the u.s. ambassador to the united nations. the kremlin said reports that russia has drawn up such lists is a lie. this echos president biden's assessment on friday that putin has made the decision to invade

ukraine within days saying they have intelligence showing russian military officials were given an order to invade. here's secretary blinken on "meet the press." >> it certainly looks like everything we said was likely to occur in the leadup to the actual invasion is happening. we're seeing false flag operations taking place in eastern ukraine, the manufacture of provocations and justifications for russia to go in. all of this seems to be following the script that i laid out at the united nations security council and that president biden be talked to the nation about. >> president biden held a rare weekend meeting including secretary blinken and secretary lloyd austin. on saturday ukrainian president zelensky revealed their plans to serve as a deterrent and warned

about the dangers of appeasing the russians. russia plans to keep troops in belarus despite promising to remove them by sunday. they show they are continuing to move closer to the border with ukraine. nbc news has not independently verified those images. keir simmons is in moscow and matt bradley is in karkiev, ukraine, 25 miles from the russian border. matt, let me start with you along the border in ukraine. what is the feeling right now about whether this may be imminent, despite all the talks about the summit between putin and biden, which is a long way off, what are the feelings about ukrainian people on the ground

about whether and when this will happen? >> reporter: it's really remarkable the massive disconnect of what we're hearing internationally from washington and what we're seeing on the ground. yesterday this hotel, 25 miles from the border there was a massive children's dancing competition in the hotel. so about 700 children from all over ukraine, their parents felt like they could drive them to within 25 miles of border with russia and felt confident. is this hubris? is this defiance? no, they're just used to it. ukrainians feel the threat has always been there and never gone away. that is belied by the facts on the ground here. just across the border, there are a huge number of armaments moving around. we're starting to see tanks, mobile howitzers and fighter jets and helicopters arrayed just across the border.

that was from maxar technical i technology. and the government is sounding the alarm on that. also to the east of where i am, in the two enclaves, we're seeing a real uptick in the tempo of fighting. we're starting to see a massive exchange of fire between russian-back separatists and the military. two ukrainian soldiers were killed over the weekend and there's been dozens of violations of the terms of the cease fires that have been recorded every day and that number is increasing. i suspect we're going to see more and more of that as this week goes on. you know, i was speaking to a ukrainian diplomat a couple of weeks ago. he told me as long as the

diplomats are talking, the guns are silent. but the fact is as long as the diplomats are talking, the guns are moving. it really just goes to show even as those interminable discussions keep going on and on, vladimir putin is moving guns in position for a potential invasion and we can see that from the sideline. >> i saw that video you posted yesterday, children's dance competition with parents cheering them on and yet there are 130,000 troops at the border, potentially posed to go in. and the white house said, well, let's see, we've got to let blinken and lavrov talk first and then maybe there would be a summit down the road.

there is a sense that putin's playing games here. what's your sense of it? >> reporter: willie, diplomatically speaking, when you heard matt talk about the changes on the ground in detail, the daily changes, diplomatically speaking, nothing's really changed and that's the issue. that's what president macron is trying to push. i guess they may delay things until secretary blinken and lavrov meet later this week, if they do indeed meet. maybe a delay until president putin and president biden can meet. the reality is that the ukrainian government isn't going to start implementing minsk and the russians have been building dollar reserves for years and years going back to president putin's famous speech in munich. they now have $600 billion more

now in reserves and that tells you that president putin has been preparing for this for many years. to put it in a visceral sense, president putin is not threatened. he's not threatened because he has those reserves and he knows potentially his next move might be to cut off the gas to russia, cut off the gas to germany, causing panic in germany and maybe a massive cyber attack. once conflict starts, you don't know what direction it may go in. so of course it important there continues to be efforts for diplomatic talks but we really are in the last chance, i think. >> you are in paris this morning and president macron served as a

mediator. he spoke to president biden, spock to president putin twice yesterday before and after his call with president biden and laid the groundwork, didn't set up a summit yet but laid the groundwork for a possible meeting between the two. how realistic does that look to you from where we're sitting this morning? >> reporter: it's interesting, willie, there's a strong push in europe to see diplomacy as far as it will go, to not accept the idea an invasion was inevitable. i think that's why we saw president macron with putin for a couple hours and then back on the often with president biden and then back on the phone with putin. woe heard the german chancellor is also going to speak to putin again, trying to create a coordinated effort between western allies. the french want to make it clear it's the germans, the brits, the

americans and french in this effort to give diplomacy a chance. but keir is right, the signs from the kremlin are not good this morning. they fairly quickly of threw cold water on the prospects, realistic prospects of an imminent summit between joe biden and vladimir putin. it would be interesting to hear from matt. we're watching things change. we have fascinating satellite and social media images from the ground there. what's the trigger you'll look for that we've gone beyond movement of troops toward invasion and what is actually a war in ukraine, beyond the war in 2014? >> reporter: good question. that cast as pretext in the east of the country in the two

russian-backed separatist enclaves. that's what toney blinken was warning about. this exchange of fire are ominous and threatening. the ukrainian regular military are under strict orders not to return fire unless it absolutely necessary because all they have to do is start killing some of these russian separatists and that will give vladimir putin his pretext to invade. putin has already said time and time again that the russian-speaking population of ukraine is oppressed and they're even the victims of genocide. so either he believes that, which i find hard to believe because we were out there and saw no evidence of anything like a genocide or he just believes the russian speaking people of eastern ukraine will rise up and back his army, as they have in the eastern part of the country. i'm in a russian-speaking city. their ordinary conversations are

in russian, not ukrainian. these people are not behind putin. vladimir putin believes he'll get support just because they're russian speakers, i think he's mistaken. >> great perspective. thank you both. still ahead this morning, typically the fbi get involved when classified documents are found somewhere where they should not be. so will the justice department now start looking at how materials wound up at the home of former president donald trump? "morning joe" is coming right back. right back and baja chipotle sauce. it's three great things together. wait! who else is known for nailing threes? hmm. can't think of anyone! subway keeps refreshing and re-

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contain classified material. the former president returned 15 boxes of white house documents to the national archives in january, and the agency now says it has, quote, identified items marked as classified national security information within the boxes. the national archives has asked the justice department now to investigate. the former president released a statement friday which reads in part, "if this was anyone but trump, there would be no story here." hillary clinton would like a word. and they said that they did not preserve tweets and posts. matt, you've been on this story from the beginning. how significant is development is this and how important is

this to the former president? >> it was reported about a week august that there was information marked classified at the top secret level and above. in some way this is just confirmation of what's out there. it's significant because it going to increase pressure on the fbi and on the justice department to say something and do something. when classified information slips out into the world, generally the fbi at a minimum wants to go and get that back, get that in sort of a secure facility and also understand how did it get there. they don't like classified information is just out in the world as this was until, you know, several weeks ago. so the fact that the archives is now sort of saying on the record, saying any public letter of classified information was in there ups the pressure on the fbi and justice department to get involved there. >> about that pressure on the fbi and justice department, where are we on this?

this seems like an endless investigation. we see stories in the papers each and every day, including the fine story today in "the washington post," and yet there's a sense within the justice department among some people that things are proceeding too slowly, that there's not enough activity for the public to see someone basically in handcuffs as a result of this. >> i think there's sort of separate things you might be talking about. on the archives matter, we haven't really seen the justice department do anything. the archives, as we understand it, is going through and indexing these files. the justice department at least as far as we understand it right now hasn't opened any sort of investigation. because of former president donald trump, this's a large

pressure on many things. there's been a lot of frustration that the justice department isn't going right at members of his inner circle to learn details about this sort of pressure campaign or details about his sort of attitude or involvement with regard to his speech on january 6th. so those are kind of two separate things, the archives matter and then all of these other things, but they're of a point which is that many, many people in the public, particularly on the left, are frustrated that the justice department just has been unwilling to investigate directly and aggressively the former president. >> so catty, there are two pieces -- number one, that the records are incomplete, they didn't get everything they needed and, number two, that he did in fact take classified documents to mar-a-lago. >> yeah. we've seen a pattern of the president ripping up documents in the white house itself, which he shouldn't have been doing because white house documents

are government records and they certainly haven't been removed down to mar-a-lago. the big question that a lot of people have is what's the cumulative impact of what the national archives said about those documents going to mar-a-lago, the investigation being held into the president and his businesses as well? how much pressure to mike's point about this being broader than the justice new information from the national archives, how much legal jeopardy is donald trump in at the moment, given there are these two grand juries in new york and in georgia. is he seriously facing the kind of legal consequences that many people in america think he perhaps should have faced a long time ago? >> i don't think we have any idea, and don't believe anybody who tells you they know because grand juries are by their design secret and with respect to this latest issue, with respect to the classified information matter, you know, ordinarily you

would think what d.o.j. would do is open a full field investigation, they would begin to subpoena record, gain access to documents and interview witnesses. this investigation probably would go on for a very long time. d.o.j. doesn't do anything in a matter of days or weeks. but whether or not there's a cumulative effect, i don't see this. i think these are running on separate tracks. i personally think the place where the trump organization faces the most legal liabilities is with expect to the financial investigations being done in new york. as to the january 6th matter, i don't think d.o.j. has said a word and i don't think sitting here today we have any idea whether that's going to result in criminal culpable for former president trump or his subordinates. >> jeremy bash, always good to see you, my friend. and "washington post" national security reporter covering the justice department, matt, thank you, too, for joining us. we appreciate it.

coming up next, pentagon press secretary john kirby is standing by. he joins us to discuss the threat of war in ukraine and how close that may be. that's next on "morning joe." n. ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ ok, let's talk about those changes to your financial plan. bill, mary? hey... it's our former broker carl. carl, say hi to nina, our schwab financial consultant. hm... i know how difficult these calls can be. not with schwab. nina made it easier to set up our financial plan. we can check in on it anytime. it changes when our goals change. planning can't be that easy. actually, it can be, carl. look forward to planning with schwab. schwab! ♪♪

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live picture of washington at 8:26 in the morning. in a moment we will speak live with pentagon press secretary john kirby. first, nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel reports from the front lines in eastern ukraine. >> these may be the opening shots of a war that could tear up the map of europe. russian-backed separatists fighting in a largely ignored conflict for eight years against the ukrainian government have dramatically stepped up artillery and mortar attacks. firing on housing seemingly at

random in government-held areas. villages tell us ukrainian forces are firing back. roman, a security guard at a fish cannery, says he just left his house when an artillery round exploded. it came, he says, from the separatist areas. but over the fields in separatist territory, the mirror is twisted, saying they are facing an unprovoked and merciless assault by the army and gangs. they accuse the separatists of manufacturing a crisis to give russia an excuse to invade. the separatists, around 2 million, have ordered a mass evacuation for russia. but some separatists told reporters they didn't know why they'd been brought to russia, complaining they'd been dumped there without food or places to

stay. some accused putin of carrying a genocide of russian speakers in ukraine. u.s. officials say president biden says he expects russia will invade within days because u.s. intelligence indicates putin has given his generals the go ahead. this man fought for the soviet union as a young soldier and hated it. he doesn't want to live under what he calls putin's dictatorship. we don't know what's coming. how do you think this ends? >> good always triumphs over evil, he says. as churchill shows in the end, it will be victory. >> joining us retired rear

admiral kirby. jake sullivan said over on the "today" show, it could be hours now that russia invades ukraine. we've heard this from the president of the united states, from the secretary of state, that an attack is imminent. is that your analysis at the pentagon? >> it very much is. we've been saying a while now it could happen any day. today could be that day. >> what tells you that? >> again, it's a combination of the intelligence that we've been seeing and it's route out there in plain sight, willie. look at what has been reported from the eastern part of ukraine. they continue to move the forces closer to the border. we're seeing it across a different range of different sources. >> yet we're hearing of a french

brokered potential summit between president putin and president biden. and putin has said he hasn't agreed to a summit either, and he's meeting with his national security just as president biden did yesterday. do you believe there's still time and space for diplomacy sip or is this inevitable now? >> we believe every effort should be expended to pursue a diplomatic path. but that time does appear to be shrinking, given what we're seeing the military do along that border with ukraine and belarus and crimea and the black sea. >> so for americans watching right now, admiral kirby, what happens next if putin does turn his back on diplomacy and begins this invasion of ukraine? we've heard projections of how

bloody and ugly it could be for the ukrainian people given they're outmatched just in sheer size of military. what would be the response from nato, what would be the response from the united states? >> the initial response and the president has been very clear will be severe economic consequences, the likes of which we have not put in place before that would have a dramatic impact on russia's economy and russia's ability to administer its own finances. and i think that would be echoed by other countries as well. number two, you saw this when secretary austin was in europe this last week, we will continue to examine possibilities inside the alliance to shore up our defensive capabilities. it is possible you could see the pentagon order additional forces even from the states or certainly from within europe. we'll do what we need to do to make sure that we are able, as the president has told us to be ready to do, to defend every inch of nato territory. >> admiral, given the imminent -- apparently imminent

possibility of an invasion of ukraine by russia and despite the courage that we just saw exhibited in the piece with the ukrainian general, what has the united states and the nato allies done in terms of weaponry to try and help the ukrainians at least deal with this mismatch. >> yeah, mike, i think just in the last year alone we've given something on the order of $650 million worth of assistance to ukraine, both lethal and non-lethal. and in that lethal stuff, which had been flowing as recently as just a couple of weeks ago included a javelin anti-tanks missiles, arms and ammunition, other weaponry to help them

defend themselves. we're in constant touch about their needs. it hasn't just been us. other countries have also given lethal assistance, including some countries have given them sting are missiles, surface-to-air shoulder fired miss missiles as well. >> can you talk about the way russia is waging war, they seem not to care about the basic necessities of avoiding unnecessary casualties. >> this is a nation for all their proclamations of the contrary, doesn't observe the law of armed conflict. it doesn't care about that. i think we can expect they will soften the ground for themselves using cyber attacks, perhaps shutting down communications.

they'll certainly use air assaults in advance of putting any ground troops inside of ukraine, make it as easy as possible for their troops. up could see tens of thousands of casualties. they will lose soldiers as well and mr. putin will have to answer for that when some of thinks troops aren't coming home. and it could be very bloody and violent and it's totally avoidable. president biden has laid out a willingness to talk to president putin, we're not giving up on it. he could do the right thing by not invading and sitting down with western leaders, including president biden, and finding a diplomatic path forward. it doesn't have to be inevitable. >> i want to read for you david sanger's analysis of what an

invasion might look like. >> they've described a worst case scenario they might consider to be likely, a week or two of terror, constant attacks and hunt for anyone who supported the democratic government of president zelensky. they would begin cutting the internet connection to the outside world and fry the communication among ukrainian military units and then would come salvos of ballistic missile, which can already been seen by launchers moved to the borders with ukraine. we were told to expect tens of thousands of casualties in the opening days said one senior official. admiral, does that line up with what you think may happen here? >> it is certainly a possibility, willie. there's certainly no doubt about that. and we've been very consistent speaking publicly about the potential here for a very violent, very bloody, very ugly conflict here. so that could be one

possibility. he could also do something on a smaller scale, maybe he wants to just go into the donbas and carve out the eastern part of ukraine. we'll see. it really depends on what mr. putin decides to do here in the coming hours and coming days. but, yes, that scenario can very well be a scenario we can see, which is why we're trying so hard to find a diplomatic path forward here that doesn't result in this kind of bloodshed. >> as you know well, admiral, this country is very, very weary of war, just having left afghanistan for 20 years. is there a chance there will be american men and women on the front lines fighting and perhaps dieing in this war? >> no, sir. president biden made it very clear there will not be american troops fighting inside ukraine. >> pentagon secretary, retired admiral kirby, thank you for your time this morning, we appreciate it.

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in hamilton county, tennessee, mask mandates have not been in effect since april of last year, but scottie bowman feels a responsibility, keep her customers and her dozen employees safe at the two chattanooga restaurants she owns. >> i don't force my employees to but we do suggest it. but that has been an issue. there were times that people didn't take the job during the mask mandate. they refused to work for a company that they felt luke like they refused to work for a company that infringed upon their right not to wear a mask. >> tensions have flared across the state at board meetings to the state legislature. >> this has been a bluk health emergency. tennessee deserves leaders who make tough calls and make them safe. >> i have tough feelings over

it. i don't want to lose anybody over it, especially people who are loyal and good with children. i don't want to fire somebody who just had a new baby or cause somebody who has a teen-age autistic daughter to be subjected to the possibility of getting it as well. >> reporter: it's not just health issues. customers turned ugly. >> i've had to ask people not to come here anymore, and that's difficult because it's like, okay, i don't want to lose your business but i also am responsible to protect my staff and have them feel safe, so i'm not going to let you berate my staff and call them names and threaten to hit them. >> tennessee like the rest of the nation suffered huge job losses early in the pandemic. the unemployment rate soared to over 15% before climbing back down. still things are especially tough for small businesses. >> we were losing staff, even

though we had been extremely supportive of our staff throughout the initial pandemic, a lot of them left and that left us shorthanded and then we had to start closing parts of the restaurant. >> reporter: fewer workers, fewer open hours and a lot less incomes, hurdles that almost forced her to shut the doors for good. >> during all this in the last two years i've considered it often but i have a responsibility to provide jobs as well. >> reporter: of her two restaurants, this one has been a chattanooga fixture for almost 30 years. it's not making a profit and between the two, bowman is only breaking even. >> if we didn't make money during the pandemic, that was okay as long as we had enough to support the people that wanted to work and didn't want to go on unemployment. i'm responsible to them to protect them and to make sure they make a living wage. >> reporter: her two years of pandemic business heart ache has left her with an unexpected lesson. >> it's brought me closer to

god. my faith has increased and i've realized that there's something greater than me and it's made me a little less selfish and a little more caring and a lot more grateful. >> and on top of all that, scottie is marking her 20th year sober. aside from running her restaurant and bar, she's opened up a sober living home for women in her community who are recovering from substance abuse. willie? >> wow, what an extraordinary woman. i love the way she fights for her employees. "morning joe" reporter, daniela, thanks so much. we so often look at the statistics on the economy on friday morning, a number will come through about unemployment and all the rest of it but these are the stories, this is what's playing out in towns and in families across the country and what is small businesses fighting for their lives, sticking up for their employees at costs to themselves just trying to survive.

>> willie, i'm struck by the number of small businesses, restaurants i've been into in the past two or three months that have signs saying please be kind to the help, we've had a tough time dealing with exactly what daniela's piece pointed out. it leads me to believe there are two viruses afloat in this country. one we can deal with with a vaccine that's available. the other virus that i'm talking about is deeper and i think it lingering longer and i don't know how long it's lingered and will linger, but it's the virus of people confusing the right or the ability to wear a mask to protect them and to protect others around them with personal liberties, a loss of personal liberties. what has happened to us as a country, as a nation, as a people? what has happened to us that we can confuse self-safety, wearing a mask that you can remove when

you're asked to remove it, if you can remove it, confusing that with an assault on your personal liberties? my god. >> and to take that out on a waitress or a flight attendant or a teen-ager working in a real tail store, come on now. coming up next, there is a long history of american presidents facing down threats of russian aggression. on this president's day, we will look back at that dynamic from j.f.k. to president biden. that's next on "morning joe." t . (johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪

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summit, it is a message of peace and good will and hope for a growing friendship and closeness between our two peoples. >> we're demonstrating the power of american strength and diplomacy. we're upholding the principle that bigger nations can't bully the small by opposing russian aggression and supporting ukraine's democracy and reassuring our nato allies. >> putin likes trump, and he said nice things about me. he called me a genius. >> joining us now, professor of history at rice university douglas brinkley. doug, great to have you on the show this morning on this presidents' day. obviously, the question of russia has been with us, you know, you can go back to truman, ford, just in this century alone, post world war ii era, but let's talk about the sitting president, joe biden, and his management with vladimir putin. he's had a long time to study him first as vice president and

moving forward. what's your assessment of how he's handled russia, handled putin, different from other presidents? >> well, willie, you heard that great sound bite by barack obama, and that is sort of the biden foreign policy, but look at the vigor which you heard biden talking about leading the free world, that we don't let little countries get gobbled up by big countries, we need more fighting joe biden. he has to be the leader of the free world right now, making it very clear that we are with ukraine in the same way john f. kennedy said, you know, we are a berliner. if you love democracy, if you believe in free and fair elections and the sanctity of democratic world order, then we've got to double down and triple down on the ukraine and not be bullied by putin or not be seeming to be manipulated by him. i mean, vladimir putin right now is dominating the news cycle.

he's jerking puppet strings all over the world. all we're doing is talking about him. and biden is seeming small in comparison. so i would say he needs to ratchet up the rhetoric and back it by a steely resolve that the united states is not going to let the ukraine crumble under a new russian totalitarian regime. >> doug, throughout most of our lifetimes and throughout almost all of our history as a nation, any foreign intervention or threat of foreign intervention from russia or any other country has been met with cross party support for incumbent president of the united states, national unity. given the collapse of the republican party over the past couple of years, up until today, can we look forward to that ever happening again? >> boy, it's not happening now. that's my concern with the ukraine. we do best in the united states when we get behind a military intervention as an iron fist as

a country. certainly world war ii was the great example when we're all in it together and the united states dazzled the world with everything from d-day to the manhattan project. but we look at these wars where the country is divided in to start the spanish american war in the 1890s, only six months but we won it decisively, mexican-american war went quickly. if we have a long, drawn-out conflict in ukraine it can't hold up because we're in a midterm election season, poll numbers are at 40%, and on conservative media outlets they're actually pro russia. we have kind of a corrosion there. but one sanctity from truman to trump was nato was supreme, that the atlantic alliance is what mattered, that no matter what, don't let that be corrosive. and i think in that result, if

russia goes into ukraine, will be a strengthening of nato, which will be a good thing. but if we get hit with high inflation due to a ukraine intervention by russia, the american public are going to start moaning, gasoline is too high, food stuffs too high. we may not in this climate have the resolve to contain russian expansionism through the ukraine. so it's very troubled times. but lit's never forget that nato is the cornerstone of american foreign policy for a reason. if we stay tight and together with our european allies, we'll get through this. biden may need his jack kennedy moments. remember when wendy went to berlin and kennedy -- the wall was coming up in berlin and kennedy flipped it on russia as a sign that you have to war your own people in. you have to humiliate putin as

being that thug and totalitarian dictator who has blood on his hands if he dares to let the tanks rumble into kyiv and let the missiles fly that kill civilians in ukraine, which is a peaceful nation. >> but in terms of history, the way we measure history, the way you look at history, what president biden has done in the past month, he's not looking for any cheerleading in terms of media coverage, but what he has done is something that putin feared in his worst fears would happen, and it's happened. the coalition of nato countries that he has brought together in opposition to what putin is going to do in the ukraine is unheard of. we were talking about dismantling them three or four years ago, yet today nato is showing a strength and resolve that has been absent until joe biden put this thing together. what about the lack of coverage, the lack of support of that from the other party?

>> yeah. they should be behind biden 100% now, but they're not. they're following some mitch mcconnell type of victim, if biden's doing it, criticize. the truth of the matter is what you said, spot on. harry truman during berlin airlifted -- 1948, gave birth to nato, pulling it together. now nato is stronger than ever because of putin's misstep. you even have a possibility of a country like sweden and others wanting to join nato. something like bill clinton looks good in the 1990s by nato expansion. it was called democratic enlargement. but when we took in countries like poland and czech republic, slovakia into the nato family, now the threat to europe is real because this is what george kennan called traditional russian expansionism we're looking at, and our containment

policy has to be put up as a wall, and joe biden so far has done a very good job i think of galvanizing nato's strength and resolve. he deserves credit for that. but it's a slippery slope when you get into this media culture and you have most republicans trying to undermine your foreign policy or at least a good hunk of them that are on the side of russia for whatever bizarre, odd reason. >> and that's why it's been so interesting to watch somebody like mitch mcconnell be largely supportive of the way the biden administration has handled itself with regard to russia. "the wall street journal" editorial page had a couple op emds supporting the way this president has handled it as well. douglas brinkley, nobody better to have on presidents' day. we appreciate you being here. this friday doug hosts an event at the council of foreign relations on nixon and china, 50 years later. that does it for thus morning.

we'll see you back tomorrow morning on "morning joe." for now, chris jansing picks up the coverage. hi, there. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is monday, february 21st, president's day. and we have got a lot to get to. this morning white house officials tell nbc news that president biden has agreed in principle to a summit with russian president vladimir putin, a last-ditch effort to stop a war that some argue has already begun. secretary of state antony blinken and his counterpart, sergey lavrov, plan to lay the groundwork for the summit thursday unless russia invades ukraine before then. and, in fact, nbc news has confirmed that u.s. intelligence shows russian military officers have been given the order to do exactly that. while we haven't seen russian soldiers actually cross the border, heavy shelling has been pounding eastern u