tv MSNBC Reports MSNBC February 22, 2022 6:00am-7:00am PST
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simultaneously. >> mika, i'm just waiting until biden speaks and makes his announcement about what his next steps will be because everyone in the world is listening and waiting for what is going to be important declaration. >> yep. waiting for the next big strategic move on the part of the u.s. we'll be watching. stay tuned to msnbc all day for the very latest on the situation in ukraine and the united states' response. that does it for us this morning. chris jansing picks up the coverage right now. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. it is tuesday, february 22nd, and we start with the new and much more dangerous chapter in the conflict between russia and ukraine. this morning, unmarked tanks and other military vehicles are rolling through the streets of eastern ukraine one day after
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vladimir putin recognized the two regions of donbas and done yetting as independent states and ordered what he called peacekeepers to the region. just a short time ago, the kremlin took another potentially ominous step, saying that russian recognition extend beyond areas held by separatists into areas held by ukraine forces. as putin is ramping up the military pressure, more leaders are uniting against him, doing what they can to stop a full-blown invasion. one of the most significant moves is coming not from the united states but from germany. just a few hours ago, the german chancellor said he would suspend certification of the nord stream 2 pipeline from russia to germany, which could be a huge economic blow. it follows president biden's decision to impose new limited sanctions against russia, and announcements from the european union and the uk they will follow suit. that said, the u.s. is still holding out hope for a
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diplomatic solution as evidenced by the fact that a planned meeting between secretary of state blinken and russian foreign minister lavrov set for thursday is still on, at least for now. >> whether secretary blinken goes ahead with this meeting with lavrov is something we've been talking about overnight. i'll leetch it to the state department on whether that goes forward. regardless, russia is taking significant steps away from diplomacy. signs are not encouraging. >> keep in mind, though, the u.s. is still holding back its most devastating sanctions, wapting along with the rest of the world to see what vladimir putin does next. let's dig deeper. nbc chief foreign correspondent richard engel is inside ukraine. matt bodner is in moscow. kelly o'donnell is covering the white house. and the editor of newyorker.com.
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and retired four-star general barry mccaffrey. richard, what is the situation on the ground right now? >> reporter: so, the ukrainian government is furious. the ukrainian government has been issuing condemnation after condemnation. they're calling the world, particularly the united states and europe, to sanction russia, sanction russia immediately, sanction them hard. but here in this city and others, things haven't changed very much. people are out on the streets. people are out. businesses are up and running. there's not a sense of panic. if anything, there is a little bit of a sense of relief. there had been so much talk in recent days that potentially last night the russians were going to invade, they were going to cut off the cell phone networks that russian troops would be storming into the cities and u.s. officials were saying that the russian troops would be coming in with lists of activists to hunt down and kill.
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none of that happened. instead, what we saw was russia recognizing its sovereignty over an area or recognizing the sovereignty of an area that russia already controls and then russia saying that it will move in peacekeepers. as you're showing right now, some unidentified military vehicles have been going into or appear to have gone into dodonek and luhans'k. they think more russian troops are coming but that vladimir putin seems to be biding his time. if there is a temporary sense of relief here, it is only temporary because there is a greater concern that we are just seeing the first steps in vladimir putin's playbook. the you listened to his one-hour speech last night, the recognition of donetsk and
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luhans'k barely got a mention. it was describing the ukrainian government and how it's a threat to russia's national security, how the ukrainian government is hostile, that it is seeking nuclear weapons and an alliance with nato. so it was impossible to listen to that speech here and not come i v away with the impression that vladimir putin continues to have the government and much more of ukraine in its sights. >> general, we talked last night. you said there is a huge amount of ukrainian troops in the areas of eastern ukraine not held by separatists. it sounds like it paves the way for russians to seize that area. give us your lay of the land, what you see and what happens if they do. >> well, i think you've gone to the central question. putin has taken steps which are under the trigger point at which he'd incur tremendous sanctions from the united states or from the european union.
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he's got 190,000 troops there. this is not over. so the next step we should anticipate would be peacekeeping forces that push back ukrainian military units that seized both of the provinces and potentially see other areas along the sea of azov, the bridge and the two so-called independent republics. there's nothing we can do to russia in the short term, meaning a year, that will significantly amounter this situation. we're not going to fight in ukraine, nor should we. i think what we'll see now is nato trying to shore up the eastern european countries, baltic sticks, poland, romania, you name it to make sure we're not discussinging this in an article 5 country. >> david, i want to play part of what malcolm nantz told me last week. he's been on the ground for weeks, assessing the
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battlefield, playing out scenarios. here's what he told me about the kind of fight russia can expect if they go in. >> if russia invades this country, they'll run into stiff military opposition. they may not have the greatest technology here, but what they have is they have home advantage, enough weapons to make the russians slow down or at least pay. >> he also talked ability the potential for urban combat in kyiv, a city about the size of chicago, and the probability this could give rise to a massive insurgency. you've been to the area. you know it well. what kind of fight are you expecting from the ukrainians? >> i think the ukrainians will fight back, but they are massively outgunned. the danger here is that the traditional russian tactic, think of the war in chechnya, is merciless blanket shelling, just heavy bombardment of cities before they move into them, the towns, and there's the human tragedy here. there will be an extremely high
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number of civilian casualties. ukrainians will fight, but i don't see how they can resist a russian invasion. i agree with what's been said. putin is not going to launch at this stage a clear open ground invasion on all fronts on ukraine. he's going to wait this out and hopes that the west gets distracted or blinks. i think it's critical that very harsh economic sanctions be enacted against putin now. that's the only way that he can be deterred. it was a very strong step by germany to cut off the pipeline today, and people need to not, you know, lose patience or be distracted by putin's tactics. he is annexing a neighboring country and will eventually invade it. >> exactly for that reason, kelly o'donnell, that virtually every expert i heard on our air including general mccaffrey, called what we saw yesterday an
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invision. the biden administration was not yet ready to do that. is there a change of thinking this morning? >> reporter: there is, and i think it is significant and playings into the conversation you're having. so, here's the difference. last evening, when we were talking with officials from the national security apparatus and officials around the white house, they were talking about it in terms of measuring what putin was doing, saying that his initial conduct was not a new step, that it was within the range of where russian troops had already existed. this morning, there is a clear and definable change. one example of that and a very outward-facing notice is a tweet from the press secretary where show has put out there in congratulating and supporting the decision made by germany if we put that tweet up, she talks about it in terms of an invasion. that is an official u.s. statement using the word "invasion." we also know that other officials are now moving to that term. so this is a distinct difference
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in the biden white house. and that seems to be an evolution that comes from overnight consultations with european partners. it comes as a product of the national security council meeting. it comes as a product of watching what has been happening on the ground and taking all of it in and making clear that the u.s. position will be that vladimir putin's actions do constitute an invasion. now, we do not expect to hear from the president at this point today, not on his official schedule, but we'll be waiting to see if there are any signs or any public comments from the president directly. he does have a domestic event that is scheduled for today, but this tweet from jen psaki, while it looks like any other tweet, actually carries the force of the u.s. government behind it. so, for her to use the word invasion is significant, tying it to the actions of the german government, which of course the u.s. has wanted to have this policy change about the economic
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piece and how that could be a penalty to russia, very significant this morning. >> talk to me, david, about that economic piece and germany's decision to suspend the nord stream pipeline and how it fits into all of this. do you see any way in which escalating sanctions could still have an impact on vladimir putin? >> gas -- you know, the energy sector is the driver of the russian economy. the russian economy is about a third of the size of california's economy. it's quite small. so limiting those gam sales to europe would have a tremendous impact. the other very, very powerful sanction would be cutting off russian banks and the russian financial system from the swift banking system, the transfer system that companies and businesses around the world use. that would choke off their economy as well. that would hurt the u.s. economy also. you would see a global increase in energy prices. i would argue it's worth taking
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that risk, imposing those sanctions because there will be even greater economic problems globally if there's a full-out war in ukraine. those two measures, cutting off the banking system and slashing the purchase of russian energy and natural gas are the two most effective sanctions by far. >> of course, matt, that brings me to you because it's not clear that sanctions will have an impact on vladimir putin and the whole use of the word invasion. well, he obviously, listening to him last night, he doesn't think it's an invasion. you can't invade a country, in his mind, that you already have. i mean, i guess the big question is for vladimir putin is the historical context of what is motivating him doesn't seem to be able to change. this is something he has felt agrieved about for literally decades. >> reporter: that's really the most striking thing about yesterday's speech.
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as richard mentioned, it has very little do with the actual recognition of donetsk and luhans'k as different states. this is something we've seen a lot from vladimir putin, but what stuck out most was how emotional it was. he was angry. he became extremely emotional about it, detail of a specific reading of history that i think resonates with a certain group of russians. it's stim i think very early to say what kind of reach, impact it had on the list, because looking at the way he approached this argument, you very much get the impression that he's laying the case for some kind of intervention, invasion, whatever you want to call it. you made a good point that he probably doesn't see it that way. he questioned essentially the
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fundamental ideal of a ukrainian independent state, and we've seen that backed up today in some of the rhetoric out of moscow. earlier this morning, sergey lavrov basically said that a state that harms people living in its territory has no right to sovereignty. so that wasn't kind of a one-off from vladimir putin. we're talking about a notion that the russian elite seems to be genuinely expressing at this point and leaning into. we just don't know what they're going to do with it, but they've laid this kind of groundwork now. >> general, we never know what vladimir putin is going to do, but what are you watching for next? >> well, he's got a lot of troops in belarus, and there are probably three days to seize the capital of kyiv or certainly encircle it. will they stay there? yes or no. my anticipation is of course they will. you have to hold the ham erp over the held of the ukrainians and will. the next stem is direct combat
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ukrainian military forces who now are in contact with separatist forces. there will be significant tank forces there. that's the key. will they seize the maritime borders of ukraine? i anticipate they will. but to go back to the real point, there's no military solution to this, it seems to me. ukrainians cannot confront successfully russian military forces. so the russians have nukes and oil. we have to anticipate this will be a year long or longer confrontation. we have to ramp up the production of saudi and u.s. energy supplies and try and knock down $100 barrel oil. >> general, thank you for that. richard, matt, kelly, david, i appreciate all of you being with us this morning. still ahead, much more on this situation in ukraine including the looming humanitarian crisis.
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we'll take you live to a border country preparing for the worst. but a jury in georgia is deliberating the federal hate crimes trial of three white men convicted of killingoff v ahmaud arbery. the latest on that trial next. arbery arbery the latest on that trial next. to generate income, even when you're not working. a plan that gives you the chance to grow your savings and create cash flow that lasts. along the way, we'll give you ways to be tax efficient. and you can start, stop or adjust your plan at any time without the unnecessary fees. we'll help you go from saving... to living. ♪ play all day ♪ psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff,... ...swollen, painful. emerge tremfyant®. tremfya® is approved to help reduce joint symptoms in adults with active psoriatic arthritis. some patients even felt less fatigued. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections
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with the prosecutor saying the killers were driven by pent-up racial anger and treated arbery like an animal. ron allen is at the courthouse in brunswick, georgia, and civil rights and former prosecutor david henderson. you've been on the ground, ron. what's the latest? >> reporter: the latest is that the jury has now deliberated, they started at 9:00 a.m. and sent a note out to the judge, asking -- i'll read the question -- they're asking what part of the verdict form do i need to read, i, being one of the jurors. the judge said she would respond. the clerk of the report will read the unanimous verdict. so unclear if that means they are close to a verdict or not. this is the third or fourth hour of deliberations. they were sequestered overnight, so early on in this. the defendants face five counts. there are essentially eight decisions that the jury has to make because some of the counts apply to some of the defendants and not others. but basically, in summarizing
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the closing arguments, the prosecution is trying to prove these defendants went after, chased arbery, killed him because he was black, and were it not for his race, this would not have happened. that is the essence of the hate crimes charged that these defendants face. this is not about the murder as it was in the state case. this is about motivation and why they did this. and also these are very serious charges. the first two counts, the hate crimes charges, essentially, carry a potential life in prison sentence with them if convicted. so, again, the jury of 12, 8 white jurors, 3 black jurors, one hispanic juror, have begun again and they are into their fourth hour of deliberations. >> it would be fascinating if they came to a decision so quickly. but i want to pick up on what ron just said about the whole idea of motivation because that's exactly why hate crimes can be notoriously hard to prove.
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one of the things that struck me yesterday in reading the closing arguments is that the prosecutor said, look, two things these three guys new about ahmaud arbery, that he was black and that he was running. but even having said that, talk about the difficulty of prosecuting hate crimes and how you think the prosecution did in this case. >> chris, absolutely. first, i think we need to stop letting prosecutors off the hook by convining the public that hate crimes are difficult to prove. they're not more difficult than any other crime unless there's a crime connected with the trial in this example. in the state court case the crime of burglary was discussed with the first officer on the scene. you have to prove someone entered the habitation with the intent to do something like steal or commit assault. when the officer was asked what someone's intent might have been, his answer was, how would i know what his intention is? yet every police department and prosecutor's office in the
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country deals with that every day. in that regard, a hate crime isn't any different. to the extent that it is, at the time we have text messages and posts and don't have to rely solely on witness testimony, we can definitely build those cases. this case is a very good example. prosecutors presented 20 different witnesses, which argues against the notion that this was going to be too difficult to prove to take to court. in addition to that, you each got text messages and social media posts. not only did they indicate that they don't like black people, but they think that black people are subhuman, what some of the messages say, which is consistent with them killing ahmaud arbery the way they did. >> we have almost no time left, david, but i have to ask, if you have three men convicted of murder, why is the hate crimes trial necessary? >> the answer is because hate crimes are necessary in this day and age not just that people are targeted for race but for other reasons, these crimes are egregious enough to where they do deserve special attention, and it's meaningful to see this
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prosecution moving forward. >> ron allen, david henderson, than you. up next, we'll check on the marketings because we are keeping an eye on the tensions between rush and ukraine and how they are being impacted. plus at home, people are already feeling the effects of what's happening overseas with higher gas prices, higher home heating bills. we have everything you need to know, next. we have everything you need to know, next this is the sound of nature breathing. and this is the sound of better breathing. fasenra is a different kind of asthma medication. it's not a steroid or inhaler. fasenra is an add-on treatment for asthma driven by eosinophils. it's one maintenance dose every 8 weeks. it helps prevent asthma attacks, improve breathing,
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breaking news in the sports world that u.s. soccer and women's players have agreed to settle a massive equal-pay lawsuit. a six-year battle between u.s. women's national team and their governing body has just ended with a $24 million payment guaranteed to the players plus a promise to ensure equal pay between the men's and women's team. soccer star megan rapinoe was on the "today" show. she says that will set up the next generation for fairness. much of the money is back pay from u.s. soccer. growing concerns this morning as well with those rising prices to fill up your tank or heat your home are going to only get worse, raising the
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question what is next. well, we got a peek at that today with news from germany. let's go to nbc's tom costello, who has been following these prices closely. but then we got this whammy this morning today about the nord stream pipeline. tell us how this all fits together, tom. >> reporter: this is a major development. this is controversial. russia's pipeline to germany called nord stream 2 supplying oil and gas, the americans never liked the idea because it creates this dependence on russia, and now because of the incremental invasion of ukraine, germany has said it will not certify nord stream 2, which means for now there will not be oil and gas flowing on that pipeline from russia. however, chris, as you know, about a third of europe's gas and oil come from russia. they are very heavily dependent on russia, especially to keep their homes warm during the winter. how does all of that 'v affect us? have you been to your pump lately? gas prices nationwide averaging
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about $3.50. the expectation is we may see them move over $4 a gallon nationally and perhaps pushing $6 a gallon out in california where taxes are higher on gasoline because we're in a global market for oil and gas, prices are set globally, and what happens with the third largest oil exporter, russia, and how that affects the world oil market and the potential for sanctions and countersanctions, all of that right now is leading to higher prices. as you know, chris, we, the united states, and canada for that matter have not been pumping at capacity since the pandemic, i should say. prices collapsed during the pandemic, and as a result oil companies dramatically dropped their production during the pandemic. we're not yet back to pre-pandemic pumping levels. so as a result we're still not fully using capacity and oil
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companies are reluctant to pump more because they want stability after prices collapsed two years ago. the pressure is on not only on u.s. oil producers but worldwide. saudi arabia has said they will not pump more oil than what opec has already agreed to. so next time you're pumping more and paying more at the gas pump, you can thank what's happening in ukraine and in russia for the price increase that you're paying here. >> so, tom, how bad could it get? that's the bottom line people want to know. >> reporter: the expectation is if we go over i think it's $4.15, $4.20 a gallon nationally, that would be an automatic-time record. we could move over that, could move the $6 a guilty lon out in california. but you know what, chris, if this continues to spiral out of control, nobody wants that, but if it does, all bets are off in terms of how high gas prices could go, how much higher your home heating bill could go as well. it's already up 56% from a year ago. >> tom costello, i'm layering
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these days. thank you very much. just pile on the sweaters. the markets are opening with the dow -- take a look at the latest numbers, down around 200 points as the markets continue this roller coaster ride over the tensions between russia and ukraine. cnbc's frank holland is all over this story. frank, what are investors looking at, and how long might we be in for some of this market volatility? >> good morning to you. first off, the question about market volatility. it's a nuanced question. the s&p is often considered the broader market, down about 7% since that breaking news on omicron on black friday. it's been down 3% over the past week since the russia/ukraine tensions have elevated. the volatility index for the s&p spiking about 6% today. the real question markets are trying to answer is that an invasion will happen and what will the u.s. response be, uncertainty leading to key commodities that come from russia despite higher including palladium, nickel, and others,
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the auto manufacturing, and we could see shortages or higher prices due to the conflict. partly as tom was mentioning due to higher gas prices. about 75% of everything you buy in the store is going to get trucked there. when the gas prices go up, the truck prices go up. >> the dow down 263 points. still ahead, the u.s. warning that russia plans to target dissidents in ukraine for human rights abuses. we'll get a closer look at the human toll of what could overseas, next. human toll of what could overseas, next just dealt with it. what were we worried about again? shopping on public wifi is sketchy. but with aura digital security, my devices are protected in like 3 minutes. it's time to protect your life online with aura's all-in-one digital security. try for free today at aura.com what was that password anyway?
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we've got some breaking news. what you're look at here is pictures of a protest going on right now outside the russian embassy in kyiv. if russia launches a full-blown invasion, the capital, what you're looking at, and these same people could be on the front lines. and if that happens, some experts are expecting that
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millions could potentially flee, triggering a massive humanitarian crisis. i'm going to bring in nbc's cal perry in poland, one of ukraine's neighbors, bracing for a possible wave of refugees. also with me shelly culbertson, a senior policy researcher with the rand corporation. this is a country of 44 million people. if the russian military goes in, are there good estimates on how many people we think might actually try to flee the country? how bad could it get? >> well, if russia invades, there could be between 1 million and 5 million refugees. that could unfold in a couple different ways. if it's a full-country invasion, there could be a sudden mass exodus of people flowing into neighboring countries, in particular poland. or if it's a lower-grade, longer-term insurgency or limited in geography, there could be a slower movement of people over the coming months or
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years. but regardless, this could likely be one of the biggest movements of people since world war ii. i think the most recent comparison we have is the 2015 migrant crisis where we saw 1.3 million asylum seekers head into the e.u. then there was also the balkans wars, which had about 2 million people flee. this could potentially dwarf either one of those recent moments in history. >> cal, that idea that it could dwarf those moments in history is pretty terrifying. so take me to poland. what's being done to prepare for refugees and how are u.s. troops involved? >> reporter: i was thinking back to the pentagon press conferences we had in the last couple weeks and john kirby saying these multimission capable forces. we'll see you video close to where i am of members of the 82nd airborne. the united states has basically doubled its nato presence in poland.
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these troops are not intended to be in ukraine or to come across russian troops at all. this is to bolster american support for nato. now, in addition to that, chris, what you are talking about certainly on the minds of both polish and american commanders here, we heard from the secretary of defense on friday in warsaw talking about this issue, the possibility of an influx of refugees if we see that wider invasion. so the 82nd airborne, which is used to working with its polish counterparents, these nato missions are by definition multinational. so the communication is there. they are preparing, picking sites, getting ready in the eventuality we will see refugees. the polish government also identifying sites here in case of an influx. there are roughly 2 million ukrainians who live in poland. a lot of those folks are economic refugees. but what we're talking about now is a very different one. if there is some sort of wide-scale invasion, we could see that influx come across the border. in that case, you would need the infrastructure of camps and there's where the 82nd airborne
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could assist here. >> shelly, you mentioned the refugee crisis of 2015. people left places like syria, iraq, flooding western europe. part of the result of that was this anti-immigrant rhetoric which led to the rise of far-right political movements. if we see another potentially even bigger refugee crisis in the coming months, how do you see it playing out against that backdrop? >> i think that there are some risks. first of all, right now, sentiment seems to be pretty positive. there's a lot of sympathy for ukrainians who might burst out of their countries if there is a russian invasion. but the risks are if that host communities in europe become overwhelmed with an influx of people that are hard to house, et cetera, or if there are impressions of chaos, that could sow divisions within the e.u. along the lines of what we saw in 2015 during that migrant crisis. so in the 2015 migrant crisis, those large numbers of people
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really created a lot of divisions, it led to support for far-right parties, and a lot of polling suggests that some of the migrant crisis had been an impetus for brexit. so the e.u. in that circumstance never really managed to come up with a common asylum policy to deal with these circumstances, instead focusing on strengthening their borders against migration and then working with transit countries to keep people out. so, there is a risk, in particular during covid, when there are a lot of strains on countries, the large number of people coming through could create some pretty significant political tensions. >> the complexities bog it will mind. thanks to both of you. some breaking news out of the supreme court right now where they have decided to take up a case i understand, pete williams, that would impact gay rights in this country. tem is what the latest is. >> right. this is a question that has been
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hanging over the supreme court ever since it decided in 2015 that there is a constitutional right to same-sex marriage, and the question is what about businesses who want to refuse to serve gay customers based on religious convictions. now, the court has decided basically ducked that question a couple times involving a colorado baker and a florist from washington state. but now it's going to take up a sort of slice of this question next term in a case involving a web designer from colorado who wants to create a website that will do web addresses and web presentations for people who get married, but she wanted to put a statement on her website that said she's not going to do it for same-sex weddings because that would violate her religious convictions. federal court said that would violate -- if she put that statement up there, she couldn't put it up there because that would violate a colorado anti-discrimination statute. so today the supreme court said it will take up this question, whether applying a law like colorado, a public acome dapgs
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law, to compel an artist to speak or stay silent violates the free speech cause of the first amendment. so this case does present some sort of unique features because it involved this question of whether she could not put the statement up that she wanted to put up. that does present a sort of free-speech question. i think one of the things that's going to have to be resolved in this, chris, when it comes to argument, is what about businesses like bakers or florists? is that creative too? does that have 1st amendment complications or not? there will be lots of strands in this issue to be worked out when the supreme court hears this case next term. >> pete williams, thank you so much for that. coming up, to boost or not to boost? what science tells us about the need and the likelihood of offering a fourth booster shot. that's next. that's next. ♪a pair of jeans that fit just right♪
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zyrtec starts working hard at hour one... ...and works twice as hard when you take it again the next day. zyrtec. muddle no more. both parties are pouring massive resources into the battle for one democrat-held seat on a council with a republican supermajority. shaquille brewster is live in does value county. also joining us, carlos cabello of florida, former congressman. great to see both of you. shaquille, this is not a story we would normally cover, but both parties are pretty convinced this has pretty big implications nationally. talk about that.
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>> reporter: that's right. they think it will send signals nationally. this goes into why wee been following dubois county as part of our county-to-county project. this is a traditionally republican stronghold that democrats have found success in recently winning in statewide races in 2018 and 2020. but now both sides are looking at this race to see whether or not that trend continues or if this national sour mood, those political headwinds we're seeing, if they are too difficult to overcome. i spoke to both county parp ti chairs here, and the republican told me they are spending more money, more resources, more energy into this city council race than any other single seat that they had done in history. i want you to listen to a little bit of why he says that is and why the democratic party chair says he's facing an uphill battle. >> i think it's going to be a great indicator of republican
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enthusiasm and a great indicator of how far the republican party has come to turning duval county red again. >> i think national democrats would make my job a lot easier if they deliver on the promises that they made when they came into power. >> reporter: you know, one thing they're saying is that they are investing heavily. that means for the democrats they made more than 150,000 calls, sent more than 200,000 text messages. yesterday the republican candidate got some help from the republican governor here, ron desantis, cutting a robocall. they are investing heavily because they know either side will spin the result of it to say they're feeling some momentum, chris. >> congressman, this is wild to me and i'm sure you because we both have been around local races for a long time and pouring relatively massive amounts of money and resources into a local race. maybe it shows how much awareness of issues that are that are decided on a local level, whether it's mask or book
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debates for school boards, policing and local sheriff, d.a.'s races. but is it good to infuse these local races with these kind of resources? some complain often joumt side resources. does it change the tenor of these local elections? >> chris, i think the first thing we have to do is feel for the residents of duvall, because they are getting hit every day with robo calls and door visits and mail pieces. it is very difficult. and in a way, it kind of makes sense. it is a swing area in one of the most important swing states in the country. and this is all about narrative, right? both parties want to build a narrative as we get closer to november. for the most part, i would say that nationalizing these races is bad for local communities, because it deflects attention from some of the issues that really matter. so you'll hear people talking about abortion and about other,
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you know, national issues that really aren't within the jurisdiction of the city council of duvall. but it is a reminder that florida, although it has tilted red in recent years, still an important swing state. and as we just heard, duvall county has become one of the most important swing areas in this important swing state. >> we've only got 30 seconds, but what about the whole idea, like we just heard, that the best things democrats could do for democrats is just deliver on their promises. give candidates an environment that makes it better for them to run in. >> well, democrats have to decide, do they go for their base. do they want to get that base motivated? or do they go for swing voters? it's a difficult question, because the interests of the democratic base and swing voters are not aligned and in a state like florida, those swing voters can make all the difference. at the same time, if your base doesn't turn out, you might be in trouble. >> carlos curbelo, shaquille
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new vicks vapostick. strong soothing vapors... help comfort your loved ones. for chest, neck, and back. it goes on clear. no mess just soothing comfort. try new vicks vapostick. developing this morning, a new report in "the new york times" says a fourth covid shot may not be needed for several months or even years because new studies suggest three doses or even two for some, are enough to protect most people from serious illness and death for a long time. in fact, federal health officials including dr. anthony
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fauci say that they're not likely to recommend a fourth dose before the fall. meantime, the cdc is coming under new scrutiny. "the new york times" says the agency isn't publishing large portions of data it's collecting, including the effectiveness of boosters for younger americans and signs of virus in wastewater. the agency tells "the times" that's because some of the raw data could be misinterpreted. so you've got these new studies suggesting a fourth covid shot may not be needed for months or maybe even years. different from what we're seeing in places like israel and sweden where they're already giving a fourth shot. what's your thoughts about this and how can you bring some clarity to this issue? >> you have to take a step back and ask, what the goal is with these vaccines. for the vast majority of the population, two doses and in some cases three doses is enough. a fourth dose is not really
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going to do much, other than kind of give you diminishing returns. you might stave off an inevitable infection for some time, but i don't think chasing mild illness with boosters makes sense. i think we really want to focus on severe disease. there may be a case for fourth doses in immunocompromised people who don't respond well to the vaccine. but for the general population, i think we kind of have to move beyond these first-generation vaccines if we're going to look for more protection that we're getting. and i think the protection we're getting is sufficient against what matters. >> let me play a little devil's advocate here and say, what if this isn't just about preventing people from being hospitalized or even death? there's a new "washington post" article, for example, detailing another study into the prevalence of people having strange heart issues several months after recovering from covid. and the president of the american heart association says, in fact, they're expecting a tidal wave of cardiovascular events in the coming years from direct and indirect causes of covid. given that we haven't had enough time to have a really broad understanding of what the long-term effects of having have
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covid are, isn't it worthwhile to prevent infections, not just necessarily hospitalizations and deaths? >> well, first of all, when you think about these chronic conditions that occur like cardiovascular disease or cardiovascular complications, they tend to be more likely in people who are not vaccinated, less likely after a breakthrough infection. that's one aspect of it. the other thing is, if we had a vaccine that could prevent infection durably, that was not so much focused on severe disease, but all disease, i think we would fwh a different situation. but we don't have those vaccines, and i don't know that chasing these illnesses with continual boosters makes sense, especially when much of the world doesn't have first doses, especially when we look at what worries us the most, that's hospital capacity. it's people that lack first and second doses that take up icu beds that are straining our hospitals. not people that lack third or fourth doses. we have to get clear on this. if we get better technology,
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that would be what the goal would be. we would want to try to eliminate infection as much as possible. but i don't think that these mrna vaccines are able to do that to that degree. so we have to refigure our vaccine strategy. hopefully technology gives us the solution to have a better, more -- a vaccine that provides more sterilizing immunity. >> and it might not be fair to ask you this in 30 seconds that we have left, but tell us your thought about this new ba.2 omicron variant. how worried should we be? >> it should be something to watch, but i don't think we should be that worried. i don't think it translates to the experience we're having in the real world with ba.2. it may be something that becomes the dominant version of omicron. but the same things we do for ba.1, is going to work for ba.2. >> dr. amesh adalja.
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thank you so much for being with us. that's going to wrap up this hour. i'm chris jansing. jose diaz-balart pix up breaking news coverage right now. >> good morning, 10:00 a.m. eastern, 7:00 a.m. pacific. we begin with breaking news in ukraine. the white house is now calling it an invasion by russia in eastern ukraine. and the ukrainian government says now is the time for swift sanctions from the eu to deter further russian aggression. we'll bring you the latest from ukraine. meanwhile in washington, sources tell nbc news that president biden has interviewed potential supreme court candidates. this just one week before the president's self-imposed deadline of announcing his nominee for the bench. and one week out from his state of the union address. and any moment now, closing arguments are set to begin in the federal trial of the three former police officer charged with violating george floyd's civil
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