>> do you see him going beyond ukraine, sir? >> yes. >> two topics, just really quick, first, markets are down and gas prices are up. i know you stress the difference between wall street and main street, but everybody seems to be in for some economic pain. how economically painful is it going to get for people in this country? and i do have one more question. >> first of all, there's no doubt that when a major nuclear power attacks and invades another country that the world is going to respond. markets are going to respond all over the world. there's no doubt about that. number one. number two, the notion that this is going to last for a long time is highly unlikely, as long as we continue to stay resolved and imposing the sanctions we are going to impose on russia,

period. what is your next question? sorry. >> did you underestimate putin and would you still describe him the way you did in the summer as a worthy adversary? >> at the time he was -- i made it clear as an adversary, and i said he was worthy and i didn't underestimate him. i -- you're the wise guy. you heard the speech he made as to why he was go into ukraine. he wants to re-establish the former soviet union. that's what this is about. i think that his ambitions are completely contrary to the place where the rest of the world has arrived. >> you are confident that these devastating sanctions are going to be as devastating as russian missiles and bullets and tanks? >> yes. russian bullets, missiles and

tanks in ukraine, yes, i am. >> president biden, if sanctions cannot stop president putin, what penalty can? >> i didn't say sanctions couldn't stop him. >> you have been talking about the threat of sanctions for several weeks now -- >> yeah, the threat and imposing the sanctions and seeing the result of the sanctions are two different things, and we are going to see the effect of the sanctions? >> how will that change his mind-set? >> it will weaken his country. he will have to make a very, very difficult choice, whether continue to move toward being a second-rate power or, in fact, respond. >> you said in recent weeks big nations cannot bluff when it came to something like this and you said something about personally sanctioning president putin was on the table, and is that -- >> it's not a enough. it's on the table. >> sanctioning president putin?

>> yes. >> why not sanction him today? >> you said the impact it will have over time, but given the full scale invasion and given you are not pursuing disconnecting russia from what is called s.w.i.f.t., the s.w.i.f.t. the international banking system, and what more are you waiting for? >> the sanctions imposed exceed s.w.i.f.t., and the sanctions we imposed have two-thirds of the world joining us. they are profound sanctions, and let's have another conversation in a month or so to see if they are working. >> can i ask you about president zelenskyy? what is the risk we are watching the beginning of another cold war? is there a rupture in u.s. and

russian relations? >> if they continue with the path they are on. in terms of the cold war, you have the rest of the world in total opposition with what he's doing, with asia to south america and europe and around the world. it's going to be cold day for russia. the idea, you don't see a whole lot of people coming to his defense. >> if i could follow-up, sir, are you urging china to help isolate russia? are you urging china to help isolate russia? >> i am not prepared to comment on that at the moment. yeah. no, no, no, he has had his hand up a long time. >> thank you, mr. president. how concerned are you that putin wants to go beyond ukraine and the u.s. and other countries

will have to be involved into nato countries? >> if he does move, we will be involved. if we don't move against him now with the significant sanctions, he will be emboldened. look, you know -- well, anyway. >> can you talk any more about your conversation -- mr. president, mr. president -- mr. president, why not sanction putin directly today? >> i can't hear you. >> a major defense partner of the united states, is india fully with you on the -- >> does the defense department of the united states -- >> india is one of your defense partners. is india fully in sync with the united states with russia? >> we are in consultation with

india today and have not revolve resolved that completely. thank you. >> president biden taking questions there, announcing also new sanctions against russia, freezing all russian assets in the united states, blocking four more major russian banks, adding more names of elites and family members to the sanctions list, notably not taking away russia's access to s.w.i.f.t., which has been talked about a lot as a major blow to the russian economy and perhaps one of the strongest sanctions that president biden can levy against russia. he was asked why that was not on the list. he answered by saying what is on the list he thinks is more consequential than s.w.i.f.t., and he added taking s.w.i.f.t. away was not what the rest of europe wanted to do. let me bring in chuck todd and

andrea mitchell. welcome to both of you. these sanctions, he's not sanctioning putin directly and not taking away access to s.w.i.f.t., and i guess the open question now is why not do it now? what else is this administration waiting for? >> clearly the europeans were not in sync with this. he did not have support from the european community, as well as a lot of arguments here about the blowback against american producers and exports tied to europe would be refound. so it would hurt the u.s. system as well. the u.s. is already being hurt at the gas prices at the pump with the fallout of what happened in the opening hours of the invasion. markets are down, and gas prices are up, and crude is up to $100

a barrel, and he has pain he has to deal with at time. i think we have to see what the sanctions really mean? we have to find out what is the real impact of these compared to s.w.i.f.t., and he's boldly saying these are more than. >> yeah, he did say they are more consequential to s.w.i.f.t. if not equal to s.w.i.f.t., he added. not sanctioning putin directly, and he did mention, chuck, that europe was on the same page with s.w.i.f.t.? would europe be on the same page of not sanctioning putin directly? >> yeah, other than economic -- i can't help but listen to the president's remarks and hear in them his own domestic political concerns as he was talking about

the rising gas prices, talking to oil companies, please don't raise gas prices, if you will. if you think we're worried about the economic fallout, imagine how our european partners who are more connected to russia's economy than we are, even, and more dependent on russia's energy, so i think it's pretty obvious why there's hesitation here. you have a whole bunch of folks new europe and in the united states, and ukraine is not nato, and they don't want to disrupt their economies. the message i have is what message does that sound to putin? is he thinking the united states doesn't have the revolve what they could squeeze out of him. >> yeah, he did say there would be pain at the pump and he would try to minimize it, and the

sanctions being imposed and that fallout. he was asked about nato countries and if russia invaded a nato country, he said the u.s. would get involved. the ukrainian government said at the u.n. that they believe vladimir putin has his sights set beyond ukraine. we all heard him say the fall of the ussr is one of the great tragedies and to rebuild the ussr, andrea, as you well know, he would have to take nato countries and it's hard to see how that would not trigger world war iii. >> yeah, he would, and he said he would not do that on his border, the nato countries, and he's trying to do it by -- the whole geometry of europe, taking

ukraine and incorporating that and then trying to push back some of the nato advances as to where the troops could be deployed, and some of the things we offered to negotiate with and he refused to negotiate, with how close can the nato troops be to your border and let's have mutual exercises, and that's now off the table. one reason, by the way, they are not sanctioning putin, first of all, he's the head of state and restricting his movement would be very difficult. that said, his money is so deeply embedded all over the world and protected, you know, third party, swiss banks, you could not get -- the cia estimated he's the wealthiest person in the world. you cannot hit him financially. to speak about nato, the betting is that he would not take on

nato. he knows the strength of the alliance, and that's why nato is going to be deployed. one confusion all day has been why haven't they had the north atlantic council. that should have been done a long time ago. >> that is an open question. in discussing these sanctions, we're talking about putin's inner circle and he's wealthy as well, and throughout europe there's so much russian money across europe, especially in real estate and especially in a place like london, and there are so many banks that are willing to layer that money so it's hard to trace back to russia. i wonder how effective sanctions can be on people, not just

vladimir putin, but on the people who surround him and are involved in the decision-making process. >> katy, i had the ambassador to the uk here last week and she hinted they would not be afraid to do seizures, asset seizures, and we know oligarchs have a lot of assets in london. i will believe it when i see it, and i think we all will, and if we get to that, that would tell you this is how the sanctions can reach in and grab individual oligarchs, but i understand if people are skeptical if it will work. >> they have not done it yet. >> nope. >> and the uk government has not done that yet and that's where the moneys and it's the oligarchs and their children, and until they take the real

estate out of the london market, that's when they are going to be really serious. >> are there conversations about taking them out of the country. >> i think that that will be a secondary affect of this. i have been looking to see -- we have not been given the actual fact sheet at this moment, as we have been sitting here, so are these secondary sanctions, are we still doing business with russia? >> he had an energy carveout that i think we are all confused about, and he said we are not going to stop energy transactions yet, and that, katy, gives us a hint as to why europe is bulking, right? europe is still nervous about energy.

the fact that he put that in his remarks tells you that he had to put that in his remarks. you know, that had to be -- europeans had to use that. >> they are relying on russian energy, and the nord stream 2 pipeline has been on hold and there's the nord stream 1 pipeline, and they are trying to shore up the liquified natural gas, and it's not a replacement for what russia currently provides. he was asked if this is a total breakdown in russian relations with the united states, and biden said yes, it was. chuck, you covered this. i have covered this. we are still dealing with russia when it comes to iran and getting back in the iranian nuclear deal. >> today -- today it's happening. it is one of those bizarre head scratchers. >> we need russia, obviously, because russia can veto any

agreement within the u.n., and that was a challenge, you know. yesterday -- last night at that critical meeting the u.n. ambassador to ukraine challenged the russian federation leader of the security council until monday or tuesday, they are the leader for this month and told him basically you are going to hell without stopping in purgatory, and demanded he be replaced, and he cannot be replaced and russia cannot be removed as the permanent five, and the president did not say where china stands. i think they are still trying to stop china from back fueling russia with money. >> i asked experts about this whether china would be able to float russia given the economic sanctions we are trying to levy against that country, and she said no, it would not. beyond that, though, what does

the u.s. have at its disposal to convince china to keep its distance from russia? >> it's our markets. the european market and the u.s. market are so much bigger, there's no comparison. how much are we going to say we are going to stop trade with russia, and it would hurt us more than them, and they hold our debt, and they are not happy about the invasion because it violates a key core principle of china which is not to interfere in the sovereignty of a country, and that's what they say when talking about taiwan. >> india has -- as india moves closer to the united states,

pakistan moves further away from the united states. as india moves further back to the united states back in the '80s and '90s, pakistan moves closer. obama, trump and now biden have all wanted to bring india into the sphere of influence, and you have the quad, and as a way of trying to check china here, i think, again, pakistan's politics is very paranoid when it comes to india. if india is from us, they will try and find allies somewhere else. >> yesterday when vladimir putin was announcing this invasion and trying to justify it by saying it needs to de-nazify ukraine, and he mentioned and threatened anybody that wanted to get involved, and he mentioned russia is a nuclear state. i read this somewhere, andrea,

is that escalating in order to de-escalate? >> i think there's no way to negotiate right now. there's just no way. what they have done is violate every presect. putin is not pragmatic, and he's trying to re-write history, and no amount of pain will detour him, and that's what the president was saying when he said no sanctions would detour him. the intelligence has been right on, and this is not 2003 and fake wmd, this is intelligence that has been point by point showing exactly -- they declassified it to try and take away any element of surprise and mess with his timing and his

logistics because we telegraphed everything he's about to do. >> we are able to see with our own eyes the buildup of troops along the three borders and in the black sea surrounding ukraine, nearing 200,000 troops at the peak. chuck, i wonder -- you were talking to keir about this, and we have been wondering openly about vladimir putin's stability right now. he has been increasingly isolated especially over the pandemic. his rhetoric has seemed different to those that watch him closely, and one ambassador said he was unhinged. do those around him have the ability to speak honestly about what might be happening? >> that's a great question. look, i was trying to get at this conversation with leon pennetta, and obviously being head of the ceo, and he indicated putin has a lot of soft spots and it was time to

get to putin himself. there were probably people around him that think the old man is out of it on this one and maybe he's losing it, and if that's true, that's what a good intelligence service needs to be doing here. hopefully we know who those people are and if they are a soft spot. we knew we had somebody incredibly close in the kremlin until we had to extract them in 2017, and that's what is unclear. the way leon pennetta seemed to think about it was if it exists we have to do our best to exploit it. if he's not rational, sanctions don't work. sanctions only work against rational people that want to balance my starting people over

here versus the maniac over here. this is not an easy response. this is a guy that might decide, let me try a tactical nuclear weapon and see what happens. to me that makes this extraordinary difficult. a lot of us are frustrated that we are not doing more, and we have to remember if he's unstable and with a nuclear weapon, that's a tough -- >> remember what joe biden said to lester holt, if we were in there to extract and take people out and help americans, that would be sending troops in and going to war with russia, and that would be world war. it was very clear that unless forced to, because of a nato commitment to a nato country, the u.s. is not going to go in and be on the ground in ukraine. >> he was very clear about that. they have been clear at every turn on that question, saying u.s. troops will not go into ukraine, which is why they told

american citizens to get out while they could, although biden did say today, if he does take a step into a nato country that we would be prepared to get involved, which is saying a lot. andrea mitchell, chuck todd, thank you for sticking around from the top of the hour. appreciate it. russia is trying to decapitate the ukraine military, and here are military trucks on fire. we have seen video of damage to civilian buildings including a shelled apartment in kharkiv. people are scared right now and rightly so. reporters describe ukrainians are either on the run in miles to bumper to bumper traffic to get out of kyiv.

bunkers were built to keep russians safe from americans. the horror of war is being felt immediately. at the same time, the ukrainian government also announced battlefield successes, shooting down a russian jet and multiple helicopters. but russia is not done yet. a senior defense official tells nbc news the russians are, quote, making a move on kyiv, adding that russia has every intention of basically decapitating the ukrainian government and installing their own governance. alongside that reporting, the ukrainian president zelenskyy said occupation forces in the north turned their forces on the nuclear power plant site. the advisers tell nbc news that site has now been captured by russia. it could have released

radioactive dust over ukraine, belarus and other parts of the eu if it was struck by artillery fire. this afternoon in moscow as russia's currency plummeted, vladimir putin defended his attack on ukraine as, quote, a necessary measure after he was urged to be cautious by the head of a business lobby group. joining me now from ukraine, is nbc news correspondent, matt bradley. i spoke to you all night and it was quiet for most of the overnight hours here in the united states, but there was talk about whether russian tanks and troops would be descending on that city. what do you see now? >> reporter: well, now we are seeing a quiet city -- not just a quiet city, but an entirely dark city. it's lights out in the second largest city in ukraine, and it has been quiet all day. the streets are essentially empty. the shops are mostly closed.

the ones who are open are seeing runs on food. atms have long lines, and there are lines of cars backed up for blocks waiting for gasoline. it's a very depressing scene. i went into one of the subways you were just mentioning, it's filled with people trying to seek refuge and safety, and people with children, dogs, and elderly people down there sleeping on mats they brought, and turnstiles flipped up and trains were stopped so people can sleep inside the trains. everybody was just confused, sad and desperate. they just don't know where they are going to be headed next. i wanted to mention, too, though, what we just heard from president biden, i think that's going to be very disappointing to the ukrainian government. we have been hearing demand after demand, not just since this morning when the fighting started in earnest, but in the past several weeks.

president zelenskyy said why wait for sanctions preemptively, and the u.s. decided not to do that, and that was a great disappointment to the ukrainian government. we heard yesterday urging for more sanctions, and he tweeted this is a question of innocent ukrainian men, women and children. band russia from s.w.i.f.t. he wants that s.w.i.f.t. system to be taken away from putin's hands. >> hold on. i want to get to tom costello who has breaking news, and not just the airspace over ukraine but neighboring countries. >> moments ago the faa decided to expand the no fly zone. since a ukrainian jetliner was shot down in 2014, the u.s. has not allowed u.s. air traffic over eastern ukraine, and it

expanded that no fly zone to all of ukraine and belarus, and 160 nautical miles into russia itself. again, these are now no-fly zones. the only exemptions would be for u.s. military aircraft, otherwise, all of ukraine, belarus and 160 nautical miles into russia have been cleared no-fly zones for the u.s. aircraft, and military aircraft is the exception in this particular situation. very few planes, by the way, were flying over ukraine anyway, following that shootdown, and few planes flying over belarus from a year ago where they forced down an airliner and took a dissidence leader off and put him in prison, and that really won't affect passenger flights. it's really more about cargo flights that could be of notice

to airmen. >> let's get to richard engel who is in mariupol, ukraine. matt bradley just said he believes the ukrainian government will be disappointed by the sanctions president biden just announced. i am curious, what you have seeing there today? we just saw images from mariupol of burned out cars. what else has happened? >> the center of mariupol, so far they have been largely spared. what we have seen is military strikes by russia on the ukrainian military, and the site you mentioned where a car was destroyed was near a radar installation. many here that fear, many hiding down in the subway system, what

could be next is a campaign against the city, and if putin tries to decapitate the government of kyiv, and this city doesn't have a subway system, it has an above-ground tram system, so people have been going to shelters, some buildings have shelters with them, and some churches have shelters and we are in touch with a family down in a shelter now with a small child and they are trying to keep their spirits up. that's the concern, the second period of darkness in this conflict, what is coming next? people are leaving. they are not leaving in droves like they are in kyiv, frankly because there's not an obvious place to go from here. if you are going to leave mariupol, you have to cross the entire country, cross several

different battle zones to get to the polish border. a lot of people here are hunkering down and seeing what comes next. >> richard engel in mariupol, thank you very much. let's bring in the political editor of the kyiv independent. i know this morning you were speaking about what you did when the bombs went off and sirens went off. what did you hear in the overnight? >> we expect air assaults, and we are ready to hit bomb shelters. it's an ongoing war. we are expected to be fired on and civilians are also targeted, so everybody is frightened. everybody is prepared. we're preparing for the worst. >> have you seen any of the

ukrainian forces where you are today? >> yes. i am currently in kyiv. the ongoing battle for the airport is something that everybody has in mind. the airport is near kyiv. it's a military airport. it has been taken by the russians. the ukrainian military was able to take it back but alleged reports right now say that there's ongoing fighting and we expect this airport to be the hottest zone of the war near kyiv in the coming hours. >> so what will you do if the air sirens go off again? will you stay where you are or will you head to the underground? >> i spent two hours in a bomb

shelter. i spent two hours trying to convince my grandma to go to the bomb shelters. this is -- that is war that even though we knew that russia is preparing something, nobody was prepared for a full-scale war. this is hard for everyone. this is depressing. this is scary. obviously i believe in the ukrainian army. i believe in the ukrainian state, but i would lie if i would say that obviously i'm not scared. >> i think you would be inhuman if you were not scared right now. >> yes. >> what do you plan on doing? will you stay in kyiv or will you abandon the city? >> it's hard to assess right now, because we know it's hard to leave the city.

the -- everybody is trying to leave and there's parts where you can spend several days trying to leave kyiv. obviously we are at a war with a person that denies ukrainian statehood and hates ukrainian culture and ukrainian language, and thinks ukrainians are just bad russians. he thinks we're some kind of a mistake in history and obviously if the russian troops will march into kyiv, then journalists, activists, people who are vocal against russia will have to leave because we're -- we're facing death. right now the >> we're showing -- no, keep

going. keep going. >> the question now -- sorry. the question now in kyiv is that whether we will survive. it's not a question about what we will do if a situation when russian troops move in. it's whether we will survive because we are bombed. we were told that we shouldn't exist. kyiv was a european capital, and we had freedom of speech and we went to movies and enjoyed life. i had plans for the future. i had an apartment renovation that is ongoing. i wanted to live, right, in the city, in the capital of a european state and because of

one madman, one absolutely insane person, i am sitting in a bomb shelter and my main priority right now is for my grandma, my dad, his family to survive. that's the world we are living in in 2022 in europe. >> i am struck that you are speaking in past tense. does that mean that you feel that it's already lost, that you can't get back to the ukraine that you know, to the kyiv that you know? >> i think the ukrainian army, the ukrainian leadership is doing a fantastic job. i think the ukrainian army and the leadership is -- i pray for them every minute. i think about every ukrainian man and woman who is on the front lines, and the front lines

are everywhere, but obviously we understand that if russia wants ukraine annihilated, the ukrainians dead and the country to not exist, then eventually it will succeed. that's why hearing biden's speech right now where he imposed sanctions but he didn't touch s.w.i.f.t., he didn't do the maximum that he could, that was depressing because we expected the united states to stand by ukraine and right now we feel that we're let down. >> what is your message to the russian people? >> i think the russian people who don't oppose the regime, who don't take to the streets and they don't take arms and don't do something, active, are

equally responsible for what is happening. i have a lot of russian friends. i lived in different countries. i met russians. i met belarusens, and i told them always that you are responsible for the person that governs you if you didn't try to change it. if you don't take the streets, if you don't protest, if you don't show your dissatisfaction with what is happening, then you are an equal part of what is happening. russians who stay at home, who think that this war with thousands of people that are going to be dead, it's -- if they think that they can just sit this out, then i have no respect for them. >> we do wish you -- we wish you the best. we wish you all the luck there

is, you and your grandmother and your father, stay safe. thank you for joining us. >> thank you very much. up next, we're going to get reaction from capitol hill. the chairman of the house intelligence committee, congressman adam schiff, joins me. later, ukrainian citizens in a state of panic and fear under attack and trying to figure out what they should do next. what they should do next rified , an independent organization that sets strict quality and purity standards. nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. frank is a fan of fast. he's a fast talker. a fast walker. thanks, gary. and for unexpected heartburn... frank is a fan of pepcid. it works in minutes. nexium 24 hour and prilosec otc can take one to four days to fully work. pepcid. strong relief for fans of fast.

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congress is awaiting a briefing on the situation in ukraine later today, and the house will follow at 6:30. joining me now is california democratic congressman, adam schiff. thank you for being with us. mark warner told nbc news that the intelligence he has been told by the cia is that vladimir putin intends to take kyiv. is that what you understand as well? >> well, that certainly is a possibility. i think the intelligence community has gotten this right from the very beginning. tragically, all too accurate in its assessment that putin had plans to fully invade ukraine, and those plans may include seizing kyiv and may include installing a pop-up regime that the kremlin controls. i do think, though, it will be

very difficult for putin to sustain an occupation of the entire country. the last invasion just moved ukraine further away from russia, drove it into the arms of the west even more than it moved in that direction. this invasion will just consolidate that and i think putin has bitten off more than he can chew but might be quite sometime before he realizes that. >> let me be clear in what mark warner told us, he said i think they are not interested in surrounding kyiv but taking kyiv and he's briefed by the ceo and he spoke to director, william burns, and that's his assessment. that's what he says. what can you tell us about what you have been learning, obviously no classified information, not that you would reveal that, but what you have been learning on the situation on the ground in ukraine? >> i have been briefed as well

multiple times a day including by the director last night. i think the reality is we have insights into putin's planning, but as is often the case in war, the plans may go out after firing the first bullet, and if putin changes course depending on the resistance the russian troops meet, i think it's still an unknown. we are gathering information from the assets we do have so we can get a better sense of where this is all heading, but i imagine it's going to be pretty fluid. my sense is that there are a couple directions putin can go. he's talked about destroying ukrainian military. that could be a primary objective, or that could be part of what he hopes to accomplish, and then he intends to fully --

essentially reverse the revolution where the ukrainians threw out the pro figure head they had running the country. >> i want to ask about the sanctions president biden announced earlier today, he said the sanctioning of the banks as well as more sanctions against the elite are equal to if not more effective, more consequential than kicking vladimir putin or russia out of its ability to access s.w.i.f.t., which to be clear, as united states would need europe to be onboard with. >> i think the package that the president announced was more

than we ever have, and i favor going further. even though we don't generally sanction heads of state, sometimes we do and i think it's merited here. what the president eluded to is we want to work in concert with our allies as much as possible. we need to continue working on european allies to move them forward with even greater sanctions on russia. i would also favor if push came to shove our imposing greater sanctions unilaterally, but it would be best if done in concert with our allies. >> congressman adam schiff, thank you for being with us today. and now i want to bring in our white house correspondent, peter baker. good to see you again.

you just heard chairman schiff saying he would like to see stronger sanctions against russia and if need be, unilateral sanctions. how are these sanctions likely to be met broadly? >> well, i think your interview from kyiv was actually very telling, the journalist told you we feel let down, and this is not the maximum and what we thought america was going to do. we have not heard from the white house aides, how they see it and why they did not go further, and there's obviously european resistances in why they did not cut off the banking or go after putin, and maybe they wanted something to hold over him to

provide levage or something, and the question becomes, if not now then when? you would think this would be the moment they would want to go all out? you just heard that from chairman schiff and from republicans, and the question is a political one here and it's a symbolic one in terms of ukrainians. it may not be something that influenced president putin's decision making at this point, right? he already knew what the options were for the west. he made a calculation that he was willing to live with that. he already decided russia could be kicked out of the s.w.i.f.t. bank system, and the deterrent is we don't know what impact it could have. over time, biden said, it punishes putin enough to get

into the decision-making process, and right now he's going to go into ukraine and do what he wants to do. >> if you tried to transfer money from one country to another, and i experienced this when i lived overseas, and if you have not, just to be clear, s.w.i.f.t. is not a bank, it's more of an e-mail system, according to our own charlie herman. it's an e-mail system links 11,000 financial institutions to 2,000 countries on transferring money or settling trades, and the reason why it would be hard to kick russia out is that it would be very difficult -- sorry, give me one second. it's not in s.w.i.f.t. -- if it's not in s.w.i.f.t., it would be harder to pay for gas exports that europe needs. peter baker, thank you very much for joining us. i wanted to add that bit of clarity for anybody confused.

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new personal record, limu! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ as the reality of war sets in, thousands of ukrainians are looking to get out of harm's way. we've seen long lines at atms and supermarkets and as you can see right here, massive traffic jams miles long on the main highway out of kyiv. joining me from lviv cal perry. you spent a lot of time in areas being torn apart by war. what is the expectation now? i know you're in lviv which feels relatively separate from all of this at the moment, but what can you tell us? >> so, i think your guests that you interviewed from kyiv gives our viewers the idea of the horror that is about to come to

civilians who live in this country. i'm a father, you're a mother. i can speak to parents all around the world and say there is nothing that people won't do for their children. so, this morning when the bombs started falling on kyiv, you had that rush to get out of the city. well, here's the reality on the ground. it's a pretty good chance that you're going to run out of fuel before you get out of kyiv because a run not only on grocery stores but fuel. if you go to the atm, not only a line, but maybe a cyber attack. there you are with your kids in the car trying to get out of the country and if you're lucky in the next couple days you get out and make it to poland and now you're living in a foreign country and you don't speak the language and can't get a job and europe has just been through this. 2015 saw a million syrian refugees and almost none of them were welcome with open arms because these countries are dealing with economic crises, there is a pandemic and you start to see a picture of what is to come and how this is to play out.

richard engel talks about the first phase of this war now being complete. the targeted strikes on military assets. the second phase is going to be government facilities and the people who live around government facilities are these civilians. and so what you have is this never ending cycle where there is really no redeeming quality to war. where people are brought up now in a society where there could be a russian occupation. and that is going to have long-lasting effects. and what we're going to see is human traffic moving in various directions. people trying to get out and doing anything they can to get out. if this turns into what president biden talked about, which is a prolonged occupation, it's going to be horrifying. there will be bombings and violence and caught in the middle will be children and elderly and civilians. >> cal perry, you've already seen a lot and it's awful. just the expectation of what is likely to come. cal, thank you very much. joining me now jim townsend former assist secretary for

europe and nato under president obama. thanks so much for being here. vladimir putin seems hell bent on doing what he wants to do with ukraine. does not seem deterred by any of the sanctions that we've imposed so far. in fact, seems to be testing as president biden said the west resolve. how long should the west expect vladimir putin to keep pushing to test that resolve? >> i think we're in for a long haul. we need to buckle in and really steal ourselves for some of the things we're going to see in the coming weeks and months. i think the reporting that we just heard was very, very correct and really paints the picture of the potential brutality that we'll see, not just from armed forces that we've seen over the past day moving into ukraine and killing soldiers, but we're going to see civilians caught in this in the

days to come. when we see a puppet government put into kyiv we'll see hunts for former ukrainian officials and their families. we're going to see insurgents who might be captured by russian natural guard or imprisoned or beat or killed for taking on insurgent-like missions. blowing up a building or otherwise making it very hard for putin. and this isn't going to end any time soon. i think putin himself is in for a long, grinding occupation where the ukrainians are not going to make it easy on him. >> you know, hindsight is 2020 and in some ways it's not worth even discussing because we are where we are right now but looking back, was there something we could have done to avoid where we are right now? >> yes, there really was. we needed to build up ukraine after 2014. after crimea was taken. we needed to really build up the

ukrainian military with lethal equipment. and the last part of the obama administration and even during the trump administration, although they provided some javelin anti-tank missiles. there wasn't enough done in terms of air defense and in terms of other types of modern equipment that the ukraine military would need to defeat the russians. that was not provided. there was training, there was other kinds of equipment. there was a lot of nonlethal equipment given. the ukrainian military is better today than it was in 2014. but not to the degree they needed to be. i'm afraid and the last administration we lost four years of trying to build up ukraine to the place it needed to be. >> secretary jim townsend, secretary, thank you so much for joining us. i know hindsight is 20/20 but we can learn from the past, as well. appreciate your time, sir. that will do it for me today. hallie jackson picks up our coverage next. jackson picks up

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we are coming on the air at 3:00 eastern here in washington, 10:00 at night in kyiv with continuing breaking news coverage of what is now an all-out war in europe. this hour we have white house press secretary jen psaki set to brief reporters for the first time since we heard about the tough new sanctions from president biden targeting some of russia's biggest banks close to vladimir putin. u.s. troops in europe after that overnight attack on ukraine by russian forces. >> putin's aggression against ukraine will end up costing russia dearly economically and strategically. we will make sure of that. >> right now in ukraine a new curfew is just going into effect in kyiv. you're looking at it live on your screen right now like i said. couple hours from midnight there with multiple u.s. sources