nobody quite knows with that means. one adviser to the ukrainian president said today, quote, it is impossible to say that the chernobyl power plants safe. nuclear weapons pose one kind of risk, especially in the hands of that kind of a leader. nuclear waste poses a different kind of risk. but now russia has direct control over both in and around ukraine. why does russia want to be at the chernobyl site in the first place? how dangerous is their presence there? and what do we make about russian president vladimir putin essentially threatening nuclear warfare? that nuclear weapons might be part of how he considers his usable arsenal in this confrontation? not only with ukraine but increasingly with the entire unified western world. joining us now is john will stall, senior official for arms

control of the national security council in the past, thank you for being with us. >> thank you rachel. >> i realize it was a provocative comparison in talking about iran, talking about north korea. and global fears about nations like that getting access to nuclear nations, comparing a nuclear armed nations to those rogue states. but it's a provocative claim to make. that said, russia is in effect acting as a rogue state now while referencing its access to nuclear weapons in a way that makes it seem like he is threatening to use them that is how it seems to me to me as a lay observer. as someone with real expertise, can you tell me that i am wrong? >> well, let me tell you that you are wrong and that russia is behaving better than we had hoped -- but that is actually not true. russia has violated every norm and law that we have tried to builds around nuclear weapons over the last years.

-- it made in 1994 to convince ukraine to give back 1400 nuclear weapons that were left on its territory when the soviet union fell apart. and all of the agreements instance including one made several weeks ago with united states and other nuclear states, promising that a nuclear war cannot be won and therefore must never be fought. and here we are a month later with president putin saying, i am prepared to ease these nuclear weapons or do not get involved in my backyard. >> in terms of what he may be thinking about in terms of nuclear weapons, what do you make of this -- one appears to be an effort to clear the way to move russian nuclear weapons to belarus? obviously it is one of the great high wire acts of modern history, that when the soviet union collapsed, all of their weaponry that was in the very it soviet socialist republics ended up getting consolidated through the promises that were made, including to ukraine,

that they would be protected if they agreed to give up the weapons on their soil. what does it mean? why would the belarusian leader and putin want to move rushing to clear weapons to belarus? do you think that they will? and what kind of the threat might that be? >> i do think that president putin is serious about moving nuclear weapons to belarus. i think there are a couple things behind it. first and foremost is that he wants to put nato states under threat. it is an old soviet play out of their playbook, which is to divide and create tension inside the alliance. the nato countries next to russia very much want to be in a nuclear alliance because i think that that deters russia. the states much farther west are much less committed to having nuclear weapons as part of their forward deployed nato forces, because they worry that it could be seen as provocative. it is useful to keep in mind that the united states does forward deploy nuclear weapons in germany, in turkey and a number of countries that are close to russia. but i think that putin wants to basically use that judo move

against us to start moving nuclear weapons goes into nato territory, creating this tension within the alliance. >> i am sure that that always ends well, right? that is certainly always ending in peace and stability for everyone involved. >> well, and that's -- >> oh, please. >> that is the other element involved here. at the united states and many of our allies believe nuclear weapons to be stabilizing. what we are seeing is a fully armed nuclear country using nuclear weapons as a shield. and behind that shield it wants to undertake all manner of gray zone and conventional conflict to achieve strategic executives. nuclear weapons form a stalemate at the strategic level and we need countries able to use conventional weapons and other means below the surface. that is not a recipe for stability. that is a recipe for escalation, as ambassador daalder talked about before. we think we are smart about these things but they can get out of control quickly, in brandishing nuclear weapons on either side. it is something we should

avoid. >> jon wolfsthal, former senior director for arms control and nonproliferation at the national security council. thank you, this is difficult stuff, thank you for being so clear. >> thank you. >> this was a train station in southern poland today, this is right across the border from ukraine and what you will see here are ukrainian citizens -- do we have that footage? here we go, three, two, one. there we go. ukrainian citizen stepping off the train. this was the first train carrying a group of ukrainian citizens into poland. ukrainians who are fleeing the russian invasion. the president of mulled over tweeted these pictures today of two new refugee camps that they have set up for the anticipated flow of ukrainian refugees coming across the border to his country, moldova. just as more than 4000 ukrainians have already crossed into moldova and are seeking refuge. today, an estimated 100,000

people left their homes in ukraine, trying to get their kids to safety. thousands of those people are expected to abandon their home country entirely, fleeing across the border. some of the other people who left their homes will be going to other parts of the ukraine, to places they think maybe safer. the most immediate crisis of bombs and missiles and gunfire being lobbed into ukraine's -- but immediately in simultaneously, we are already starting this knock on parallel humanitarian challenge. artiukraine borders five friendy nations to the west and south. poland, slovakia, hungary, romania, moldova. they are all expected to see a sudden influx of refugees crossing the border and in the today that started. there are huge lines and gas stations and at atms today. ukrainians are trying to fill up on gas and get cash on the way out of the country. those lines translated into

bumper-to-bumper traffic on the road -- outbound traffic lined up for miles. this is a radical dislocation of what will end up being tens if not hundreds of thousands of people in a semi permanent way. it is not just a humanitarian crisis for the people directly involved. it is not just a economic races for everyone whose lives are touched by this. it is also potentially a diplomatic challenge for europe. i mean, so far and europe in the rest of the western world has been quite unified, surprisingly unified in its response to putin's aggression towards ukraine. if you were going to be critical of lots of things about the biden administration right now, uniting the world against what putin is doing is not something that you can criticize them for. they have pulled that off. but it is not that it will not be challenging. this mounting refugee crisis which we started to see sea take shape today, it does have the potential to destabilize

some of that unification. right? the strain of widespread humanitarian disasters, the need of other nations around the ukraine crisis to adapt, to essentially come to the rescue, that creates political, diplomatic and up the mentally economic difficulties. that is mission critical right now for any chance of countering russia splits through ukraine. how do you retain that unity as we start to see these challenges build? almost immediately, as soon as the missile started flying? joining us now is former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul. he was in that role, ambassador, when russia invaded and annexed crimea in 2014. ambassador mcfaul, it is good to see you, thank you for joining us. >> glad to be here, rachel. welcome back. >> thank you. let me just ask you first for how you are feeling. how, as somebody you have been watching this so closely -- you have lived through a

smaller version of this before, in terms of what happened in 2014. how you feeling watch watching what is happening in ukraine? what is your overall reaction to what putin has done and what he has been able to pull off as far? hat putin has done and wha he has>> well, my first reactios that i am incredibly sad. rachel, i have lots of friends in ukraine. hundreds of people have trained in our various programs. our programs at stanford, i used to go there often. and when they started to attack last night i was on various platforms, talking to ukrainians. some of them are now rather prominent ukrainians and government in other places. and it was terrifying to watch my friends react to what was going on. and for all of the unity you just talked about, and it has been really remarkable unity that the biden administration has put together, one of my friends said very pointedly, i cannot believe we have to fight this. and she used a word i am not going to use on tv, it begins with the.

b. ukrainians are driving to lviv alone, they're fighting russia alone. my second reaction is anger. i want to tell you honestly, i am angry at this evil act by this evil leader, attacking an innocent nation, a democratic nation. and he is attacking that because our democratic nation. -- that is what this is about. he is trying to undermine what the ukrainians call the revolution of dignity back in 2014. he has been angry about it ever since, and biden move putin said it very bluntly. i listened to his speech. he said it bluntly, we are going to go into do two things. one, to destroy the ukrainian military. and number two, to the not so fine de-nazify but of course that's not the right word. there are no nazis reeling ukraine. but what he needs as he is

going into overthrow mr. zelenskyy and his regime. there are intelligence reports that they are going to ride up and arrest and perhaps kill the people that wear the peaceful protesters that launched the maidan revolution, that revolution of dignity back in 2014 and 2013. so, i am angry about that. >> the way you are describing that and owes historical references, i think to me they have been lining up in a way that raises one very big question. right? when we saw in 2008, when putin waged war against georgia, we saw him denounce the leader of georgia as a nazi. i remember they have to the website of the georgian leader. the george and and put up all these pictures of him, looking like hitler. they tried to create this case that he is some sort of nazi, just like they are making the pro prosperous case about zelenskyy and ukrainian government today. you were in russia as

ambassador when he took and annexed and took crimea and took other portions of eastern ukraine in 2014. and i remember, in 2008, i remember john mccain running for president and saying we are all georgians, and the unity, and the unity that that rejection of putin brought, not only to americans but to the west. i remember the outrage in 2014 when putin did what he did. and i remember the sanctions, not only from the united states, not only from the european union but from a unified western field of sanctions that really bit in russia in terms of making real economic consequences. and yet here he is again. and this time, maybe he is going to try to take all of ukraine. and who knows how he will try to hold it for, if not permanently. it feels like sanctions is the big idea from the west and sanctions are getting tougher and there will be, i imagine, even more announced in further

days. but it feels like that is sort of baked-in to putin's calculations at this point, that he does not think that sanctions are important enough to stop him from doing anything he wants to do. and yet it seems like it is the strongest weapon that gets yielded against him. >> that is right. we talk a lot about sanctions because that is the instrument we are willing to use. they are other instruments we are not willing to use, i think rightly, by the way. i agree with president biden. by that means we focus on that. and i think we make a miscalculation when we talk about sanctions. and i want to be crystal clear. i support with the president announced today. i would go farther, if he wants to go do 100% sanctions, i want to do 110. i hope there is more to come. at the same time, we need to be realistic and understand that this is a dictatorship in russia. sanctioning banks -- i know the two heads of the bank banks that were sanction today. they will not go in and tell putin, hey, you need to stop

your sanctions because my bank will suffer. you know why they will not go in and say, hey, stop? because putin put them there. we will not see the consequences of pressure on putin for, i predict, months if not years to come from the sanctions. so, it is the right thing to do. there has to be a response. but let's have no illusions that this is going to change his calculus, at least in the short run. >> on that last point there, there is a sort of common wisdom about sanctions that you don't sanction directly the rogue state leader. you do not sanction the dictator personally. you saw the president today sort of fending off and not answering questions from a lot of different reporters as to why putin personally would not be targeted with sanctions. the common wisdom for why you do not do that is because once you do that that essentially precludes the possibility of negotiating, of talking to them about anything. but in this case, however it's going to be resolved, it's going to be resolved through

conversation so you need to leave open a door to have conversation. at some point, does that -- this putin become a person who does not get talk to? at some point does the dirty sanction him personally become a more important door, a more important tactic to use than keeping open the prospect of talking to him? essentially given what has happened with previous conversations and commitment that he has given up on in the past? >> well, rachel, you are absolutely right about our nation, why democrats and republicans do not like to sanctions the head of state. because they want to leave open the possibility. i respect that. i think it is more symbolic than real. but i do think it underscores something else. we have got to start calling -- you use the word rogue state, pariah state. those are the right terms to talk about russia today. tragically, russia has been transformed by putin into those things. we have to treat him that way in many different shapes and forms, not just in this moment but across the board.

isolate him, do not engage him, do not pretend it's business as usual after this war is over. and we have got to stand up to evil. let's just call it what it is. we have got to stand up, there is right and wrong in the world. there is good and evil in the world. my government and my country sometimes has been on the wrong side of those, let's be honest about that. but in this case there is right and wrong. for those brave ukrainians that are withstanding evil, we have got to be with them. and by the way, i am glad you reported it earlier in your program. there are also brave russian standing up. 1700 were arrested today. 53 cities were there. don't underestimate how unpopular this warriors. they want to hear our voice being strong. they were prepared to be arrested today. we need to show that we are going to be strong in standing up for good versus evil. >> michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia. ambassador mcfaul, it's always a pleasure to have you but particularly tonight.

thank you. >> thanks for having me. >> all right, we are going to go live now to eastern ukraine. marcus yen is a award-winning photojournalist for the los angeles time times. tonight he is located in the city of kharkiv, which is very close to the border with russia. and kharkiv is currently under attack by russian forces, according to ukraine's government. kharkiv is ukraine's second largest city. i know it is late at night and i know this is not an easy time. thank you. >> thank you for having me on the show. >> so, we spoke not that long ago when you were in afghanistan and you have been covering international conflicts for years. you have been in a lot of places -- you've been in a lot of places where they have been going through their worst times. what is your impression of the situation in ukraine today, the scale of the attack and the level of a fear among ukrainian people? >> i mean ... it is horrendous.

not horrendous, it's extremely chaotic, no one knows what is going on. there is so much information flying around. and one of the things about these conflicts is that civilians oftentimes pay the highest price when governments are waging war. and today we found ourselves at a metro train station and it looked like an everyday scene, but if you did not know what was going on, as soon as you go downstairs into the platform area, you see hundreds of people just huddled on the floor, in dark subway cars, and the space they could find in the stairwell. the people bring pets. people bring children. they are restless and tired and some try to make light out of it and everybody is confused. i mean, this is part of ukraine

that is linguistically porous as a part of ukraine, a lot of people speak russian. and on the other side of the border that -- people are emotional, most of them just want peace and to be left alone. and some have been there since the early hours of the morning since the invasion started. as you can tell, it's a trying time for these people. >> those pictures that you took today are amazing. we are showing them some of them while you are talking, marcus. to be clear, while people are taking shelter underground, are they moving in and saying. is there an air raid siren system where people know, okay, now is the time we are at risk? and we should get underground? but then when that time has passed there living in going back above ground? how much mobility is there? obviously, those images that you took today show, in a very

emotional -- and seeing people taking shelter and being together and doing what they need to do to be safe. but that is not a place where you can stay for too long, presumably. a place wher yo>> no, you cannot. you cannot really because obviously it is not a place that is an end for permanent shelter. there is maybe an entire station maybe two water fountains servicing hundreds of thousands -- hundreds of people. i don't even know at the bathroom situation is like for most of them. and most have told me that they want to remain until they know and think -- something that this war will be over quake and that they can go back home and that maybe they can go back up. i am sure some will go back after they think it is safe to go back outside again. and there is a warning system. but it is just a lot. a war is a great equalizer.

i have met so many people from all walks of life there, doctors, students, even the national citizens there, there are more than 100 students from a ukrainian medical school of south asian descent. and a lot of them do not even speak ukrainian and they are all confused. they asked me what is going on, when can we get out, our parents are concerned. so, it is chaotic. that's one way to say it. >> yeah. and you are a man who knows of what you speak when you talk about cases chaos and people going through tough times. marcus ham, photojournalist for "the los angeles times", thanks for being with us, i know it is 4:20 in the morning where you are and i hope you stay safe. >> thank. you >> we have much more ahead here tonight including an

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on ukraine's not to further divide and chop of this country and carve out a little parts of it to be controlled by russia. if their goal instead, is to control all of ukraine, to take that victory, one of the things that will mean is that russian troops and american troops will find themselves face to face soon. the u.s. deployed 5000 additional american troops to poland this month, that more than doubled the u.s. troops and poland. that means there is now roughly 9000 u.s. troops and poland, that's more than there been there since world war ii. there's another 2000 u.s. troops deployed in romania, next door.

the u.s. air force has repositioned more than two dozen fighter jets tear races in those two countries, along with at least a dozen apache helicopters. poland and romania, they both have long borders with ukraine. u.s. troops in poland have set up camp near town that is right on the ukrainian border, and they're preparing, among other things, process a flood of ukrainian refugees, ukrainian citizens crossing the border to poland for safety. but if russia, if russian soldiers end up taking over all of ukraine, think about what that means. will we call ukraine now will be russia, right? we're potentially going to have russian soldiers and u.s. soldiers staying each other across that thin line, right up against each other, nose to nose. and ukraine is in a nato member, but those other countries are, which means that the u.s. troops have an obligation there to respond to any attack as if the u.s. itself was attacked.

how complex of a situation would that be? how does the u.s. military prepare for that possibility? to answer some of these questions only turned to somebody who i first met on this show a dozen years ago, 2010 i went to afghanistan to report on the then nearly decade old war there. president bomber had just announced a surge of new u.s. forces enter that conflict, and i spent time in afghanistan with ben hodges, he was the leader of the southern command in afghanistan, and we spent a long time together talk about his insights with the insurgency strategy on the troop search, iowa forces we're seeing. after general hodges left afghanistan, he went on to serve as nato's allied land commander in europe. ultimately, he became the commanding general of the united states army from 2014 to 2017. now that the united states have left afghanistan and is deploying soldiers and eastern europe, general hodges has

drawn this path, and he is just the person i want to talk to. joining us now is the retired general ben hodges, we appreciate you making time for being here, thank you. >> rachel, i looked so young in that video 12 years ago. >> we were just babies. saying [laughs] >> you earned my respect because you showed up and you told me, you said, i really came to afghanistan to understand what's going on, and you are willing to go everywhere, i appreciate it. >> i appreciate you being willing to show me what you were doing, and explaining to me why you thought it would work, and what you thought could be done, and what you thought couldn't be done. it was your candor as a commander in that situation that i think is why we've stayed in touch and why i want to talk to you about this tonight. i don't know how much of the show tonight you've been able to see how closely you've been following the way we've been covering it, but i guess i want to ask you, how dangerous do

you think this is? i feel like, obviously, the immediate danger to the ukrainian people as blood, and that can be overstated. i feel like the threat of russia taking over ukraine and pushing russian troops right up against nato borders is a very dangerous thing. i think president putin is acting like a rogue state leader while talking about his nuclear weapons all the time, and that's a whole new kind of danger that i feel is very strange to me. how do you assess this overall dangerousness here, and basically, how scary do you think we ought to be? >> of course, i love watching ambassador mike mcfaul, what's a heart, as well as a brain in the way he articulated, he's so clear. you and he are both correct, this is a very dangerous situation. i think that the president is beginning to, in a very clear

way, articulate that the kremlin is a criminal enterprise. it's not a government, illegitimate government with which you can do normal negotiations or diplomacy. this is a criminal enterprise, that not only is against their own people, the use cyber to wreck institutions and destroy peoples lives, then clearly they are not reluctant at all to use blunt force. all types, to change borders, and achieve their goal. the fact that russia has used nuclear weapons scenarios and all of their exercises, they have big exercises and hitting concludes with a nuclear strike. and this is done of course, not only to maintain efficiency, but is also done to make sure that all of us are aware that they have nuclear weapons, and that they are prepared to use them. that's a very serious situation, especially with a guy who does not act in, what we would

consider, a rational way. >> what is the role of the united states military and trying to limit the danger that you're describing, and trying to increase the paying, reduce the potential reward for putin here. obviously, president biden is clear as day that there are not going to be any u.s. troops fighting in ukraine, but we are seeing set thousands of americans deployed to ukraine's borders. and, that wouldn't be happening if there was any reason to do it. what does the u.s. military contribute to america's capabilities here as putin seems to still be expanding as attack? >> of course, as is designed in our constitution, the military is an instrument used by the leadership. and so, frankly i have to say i'm very proud of how quickly they were arming europe,

european command, our great air force how everybody has reacted then responded to move capabilities around, and put them in place in time to give our political leaders some options. and also to signal to the kremlin that this is not some exercise, this is not an academic thing, this is for real, and we are prepared. that is the essential nature of deterrence. i had a good friend from lithuania a couple years ago who was talking to me about how much they want to have american soldiers there. i said, why? why is it so important to have americans here? we have allies for multiple different countries. >> he said, general hodges, russia has never fought against american soldiers, they are scared of american soldiers, that's why we won american soldiers here. and i think, actually, this is going to be one of the outcomes of president putin's reckless and terrible calculations.

it's going to end up with permanent basing of american soldiers and poland, lithuania, romania, lapierre, and estonia. instead of rotational, is going to have permanence on his doorstep because, all of these countries know what it's like. and we all recognize now with the kremlin is up to and what putin is willing to do. >> yeah, he settled the argument aston's malign intentions. he has proven all of his worst critics correct in his way. retired general ben hodges former general of the u.s. army, is great to see you, come back soon, i'd love to have you back as soon as you're ready. >> thank you, rachel. >> we have much more ahead, stay with us. much more ahead stay wit s ame. we're carefully designing our bottles to be 100% recyclable, including the caps. they're collected and separated from other plastics,

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more loud explosions heard tonight in kyiv.

as i mentioned earlier, as we are getting these reports, we are able to check in with nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin, in kyiv in the predawn hours for us. erin, thank you again, what are you hearing and seeing? >> hey rachel. in the last 15 minutes or so we have heard a loud explosion here in central kyiv. louder than pretty much any explosion we have heard so far. it reverberated all over the city. it was hard to tell which direction it was coming from. this followed to smaller booms that we heard in the distance to my right. it seems that the attack from the russian side continues. we heard from the advisor to the interior minister, saying that attacks on kyiv by ballistic missiles or cruise missiles have continued. it was unclear what the target was up until this point.

russian forces have been targeting primarily military installations and air fields in the kyiv area. it's also worth noting we have not heard the capital siren system. not a single siren has sounded so far. that was a situation very much yesterday when the invasion began, we heard any number of booms and then finally the siren system kicked in. i was speaking to an official adviser to the mayor of kyiv. and he said that the siren system in the city is working but it is based on sort of an intelligence of whether ukrainian military are seeing but then they warn the people. again, it was a pretty loud boom and not a single siren telling people to get to shelter. rachel? >> nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin reporting live from kyiv, thank, you we will come back to you as this continues to develop. as we continue to speak to aaron it is 4:40 in the morning and there is a curfew in place resulting in there being no went out on the street, natalie

because it is out late at night but because the curfew and at 7 am local time. but we will keep this live shot and we will continue stay monitoring. there are local reports in kyiv about russian forces advancing on the city but we have not confirmed that. some large noises were heard in kyiv in the last 13 minutes. what i'm going to show you here are images from the russian state news agency tass, called tass. this guy in the blue, that's the executive chair of russia's largest bank and this guy is the chair of a now they're large russian bank. this guy here who is readjusting his mask he is the ceo of gazprom and the guy in

front of him, that is the ceo of the oil producing and refining wing of gazprom. we have all these images because they are part of a weird televised meeting that putin held with russian business leaders today. after russia invaded the value of the russian ruble plummeted to an all-time low. this meeting was basically putin performative lee ushering the big heads of russian businesses and finance and the audience watching on tv that actually, do not believe the hype. the russian economy is going to be fine. but then a few hours after that meeting, president biden, he got on tv here in the united states. and he unveiled the sanctions. these are the largest and most severe sanctions yet. that televised meeting that just happened in moscow took on a new significant after president biden's announcement. because now we can consult the footage from that televised

meeting in moscow of a visual record, a who's who of the new u.s. sanctions list. because all those days at that putin meeting today, it turned out they got sanctioned later this afternoon. all those people i just mentioned, all the companies were sanctioned. the u.s. sanctioned russia's two largest financial institutions, a dozen other major russian financial institutions and those close to president putin. the u.s. set new restrictions on wet technology can be exported to russia. the sanctions were all coordinated with other sanctions from the g7 group which is us, the uk, canada, france, germany, japan, and holy you. you. there is a lot more that still could be happening, though. the u.s. hypothetically could lobby for russia to be cut out of the banking system called swift, essentially a system by which all banks around the world communicate and work with one another. russia has been working to create its own sort of parallel system to swift.

but cutting them out of swift would cut them out of a huge chunk of global trade and finance altogether. that is the action -- kicking them out of swift, that happened against iran a few years ago. i think it was 2012 and it happened to iran. we could also hypothetically seize the assets that russian oligarchs have parked abroad. potentially could sanction president putin himself, though that has potentially unintended consequences that the united states might not like. the bottom line here is that sanctions are the biggest and most direct weapon that the united states and our allies are wielding against what russia is doing. russia certainly has baked some of that into their calculations, expecting sanctions and thinking they can endure them. put sanctions exist on scale. if it sort of zero to 100, where are we on that scale? what else could be done? and how much of that scale involves actions that we might take which would hurt russia but would also hurt us? joining us now is a senior

policy adviser in the treasury sanctions division during the obama administration. she was also treasury spokesperson back when the u.s. impose sanctions on russia in 2014. she's also the host of oh my world on youtube. thank you for being with us. >> thanks for being with me rachel. >> what are people getting wrong? where do people like me getting wrong when we are talking about sanctions? i know you are not only a sanctions expert by someone who is very good at explaining them to those of us who do not understand them well. what are some common misconceptions and mistakes people are making when we are thinking about what the united states can do? >> well, i didn't see that you said anything wrong in your introduction. but when the press conference took place earlier today with president biden, there were a lot of questions posed by reporters that made me feel like there was a lack of understanding around how the

sanctions relate to the biden administration strategy. so, sanctions are not the silver bullet to changing behavior and they are not usually relied upon for that. if that were the case, we would kind of be disappointed over and over again. they are supposed to be part of a broader strategy. and that strategy is what is supposed to change behavior. and the biden administration knows that. that is why army rain is a big piece of it. a lot of military experts, people like representative slotkin, who you had on earlier, argue that maybe we need to arm them more. diplomatic negotiations are part of. it may be some covert actions that we do not know about or cannot talk about. so, they are not the silver bullet. the things i hear about that are a little concerning right now is not just the emphasis placed on that. it is also that these types of activities or actions you just talked about, like cutting russia off from swift right now, so quickly, it would backfire on us. we engage in trade with russia and sodas europe.

notably, they import 40% of their oil and gas from russia. so, all of that trade to stop overnight, that would obviously have a huge backlash if you have not set up other sources of oil and gas. it would cause gas prices around the world to skyrocket. and when you talk about targeting the head of any state, targeting a head of state is something that is not taken lightly. it is only taken once you have decided, once the u.s. government has decided that there are no more opportunities for diplomatic negotiations. that any engagement has stopped and will come to an end. and that does not work here. because diplomatic negotiations may be needed to and this crisis and secondly there are other issues we talk about with russia still. this includes the iran deal and other treaties. >> in terms of the other swift sanctions you were talking about, obviously that's become a buzzword for a lot of people who don't necessarily understand the consequences you were talking about. by the way you just described, it it sounds like kicking them out of swift --

again, like we did, what happened with iran in 2012 -- that's something that is theoretically possible, would be hugely consequential and may potentially happen down the road by that is not something that you would do instantly. it is not something you would do without giving the world a chance to adjust, so that we are not punching ourselves in the face by trying to hit them. is that fair? >> that is right. when you have an economy like rushes that the snow will integrated into the international financial system, it poses both an opportunity and a challenge. so, the opportunity is that if they have assets abroad, if they have assets in u.s. dollars, if you have oligarchs who have parked their assets and invested everywhere, that's an opportunity to hit them hard. right? any sanction will not be symbolic. it will have a heavy effect. but on the flip side, there was a challenge where they are willing to bring it. many people depend on trade with russia. whatever happens with the sanctions or against russia will effect global markets and not just an oil and gas but probably in nickel and aluminum

and steel and other things they produce their. and so these are all things that the treasury department has to take income into consideration in their analysis, in crafting sanctions. when i was there in 2014, for example, those sanctions were very carefully and surgically calibrated to ensure no backlash. this time around, the activity is worse and president biden in his speech said that there is a price to pay for freedom and that is what he was talking about. >> hagar chemali, former senior policy adviser in the treasury sanctions division, you are doing a great service both here tonight and also in social media and all the ways you are participating in terms of making this real and understandable to the american public. you are used to this stuff on a technical level. thank you for helping us understand it and please keep doing what you are doing. >> thank you for having me. >> all right, chair of the house intelligence committee, adam schiff, will join us next. stay with us. committee adam schiff, will join us next

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situation ukraine, including reports within the last half hour of new, large blast in the capital city of kyiv. we're joined now by this chairman of the house intelligence committee, california congressman adam schiff, thanks for being with us, it's nice to have you here. >> thank you. >> the united states did something interesting with intelligence in the lead up to this war. they decided to publicly share intelligence, not just with our allies, but with the public asked the russia's intentions. russia denied it was going to launch this an invasion, the u.s. insisted that these plans were real, and the uss proven right. i want to ask, now that we're seeing this invasion come to fulfill our, when you make of this as a tactic with the use of u.s. intelligence and if that will afford us any further edged as this continues? >> i think that was a very true use of intelligence, and i

think it was unprecedented, having worked with this area for a long time, i know how reluctant these agencies are with their information being declassified. but the biden administration made a calculated decision that pushing russia back, basically exposing the pretext it was going to use stun faith its neighbor, laying bare that this was strictly putin and his aggression against ukraine, and nothing more. it was, i think, very powerful, effective when putin did just what the agency is predicted, it gave the lie to all the russian excuses, all the russian claims of ukraine potentially attacking russia. and so, i think it was very effective, it was never designed to be able to stop putin, but i think it didn't disrupt his planning. and i would like to see more of it. >> what are the things that we

have been anticipating, one of the things that not direct, but we learn to expect from russian behavior, it's some sort of cyberattack to go along with this conventional attack that they're waging across ukraine. we have seen some cyber war, we have seen some cyberattacks that the u.s. government has clearly, and instantly attributed to russia. and that has been interesting, but i think a lot of people expected, given what we saw from russia in the georgia war that they launched into thousand eight. given what we saw them due to ukraine in 2014, 15, 16, including shuddering off the electrical guard. i think people are expecting a larger cyber option to that. are you expecting anything like that? >> sadly, yes. i do expect this to come. based on how fears this is against the russians, you may see an escalation of the cyber

war. so we're seeing might just be the beginning. if putin really wants to make life even more difficult for people in ukraine, he can, i think, use cyber means to create more panic and chaos. the danger i think to us in the united states, is that some of the malware that the russians use in ukraine may not stay in ukraine. we've seen other russian malevolent tools go into the wild, so to speak, and boomerang around the globe. it's also possible that depending on putin's reaction to what we do in providing military support to ukraine and enacting these tough sanctions, that putin may direct some of those cyber tools against us. in which case, we are prepared to respond. >> chairman of the house intelligence committee congressman adam schiff, sir, thank you for your time tonight. i know it's a long time, and a long day ahead, thank you. >> thank you. >> as we're looking at these

live images, it's just coming up on 5 am in the capital city of kyiv in ukraine. capital city has a curfew that's in effect for another two hours, but you are hearing reports of loud blasts in the capital city. we'll stay on that, we'll be right back, stay with us. right back, stay with us are you one of the millions of americans

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with no line activation fees or term contracts... saving you up to $500 a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. that is going to do it for me comcast business. powering possibilities.™ for right now, but msnbc will have continuing live coverage of the russian invasion of ukraine all night long tonight, taking over our coverage now is the great and good lawrence mcdonald, good evening lawrence. >> good evening live rachel, it was exactly 24 hours ago that we got the word during this program, during the first few minutes of this program that, yes, in fact, the invasion had begun. and of course, as you know, the united nations security council was meeting at that time. and the meeting began before the invasion, but then while they were speaking, it actually was