>> hi everybody. you're watching msnbc's continuing coverage of the crisis inside ukraine. i am jasmine for you this evening. the sun is rising in ukraine this morning. ushering in the fourth day of russia's invasion. in two hours, the curfew in that nation's capital kyiv will in fact be lifted. the city's mayor is warning that all civilians on the streets during the curfew, they'll be considered quote, members of the enemies sabotage,

and reconnaissance groups. this is following a deadly 24 hours in the city. early saturday morning, kyiv was rocked by a missile strike. you can see a high rise apartment building with a gaping hole. ukrainian officials say it was struck about a russian missile. that strike left two people dead, and six others injured. we should note, nbc news has been unable to verify if russia fired that missile. and the country denies targeting civilians. ukraine's minister of health now says 198 people have been killed, as of early saturday morning. that includes three children, over 1000 ukrainians have been injured since russia launched its attack. but despite being outnumbered and outmanned, ukrainian forces are still maintaining their wry. they have secured control of kyiv. you see u.s. defense official telling nbc news, a quick victory is now no longer

ashore. the officials said that there is greater resistance by the ukrainians than the russians expected. and that ukrainians are standing by their word, to fight for their country. still with a possibility, putin could send more troops in the coming days. it's all hands on deck. on friday, the country's defense ministry called on civilians in kyiv to make molotov cocktails, to neutralize the occupiers. and as thousands flee to nearby countries, men are fighting age are being told to stay put. the ukraine state border guard service an ounce that men between 18 to 60 years old are now prohibited from leaving the country. in an address to the nation on saturday, ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, about that his country will continue to stand its ground, in the face of russian aggression. the president praised ukraine solidarity, and encouraged, and

said his people will keep battling his nation. the world saw ukrainians are strong. ukrainians are powerful. ukrainians are brave. ukrainians are in their homeland. and we'll never give it to anyone. i want to start, though, in moscow, where nbc news foreign correspondent ralph sanchez is standing by. ralph, it's good to see you this evening. thanks for joining us on this. let's talk first about another round of sanctions pressed here, hours ago. leaders from the european union, canada, and the united states announcing they would cut off some russian banks from swift. this has the possibility of squeezing the country, financially, ralph, and isolating them. how is moscow reacting so far? >> so jasmine, no official response from the kremlin yet. but back in 2014, the last time these sanctions were considered, the kremlin said it would consider it an act of war, if russia was cut off from the

swift banking system. so that gives you a sense of how serious the feud is here. i will tell you among ordinary people, among businesses, there is real fear about with this is gonna mean for the economy. i will give you an illustration. i was at a hotel in downtown moscow earlier, and the phone rang in my room, and it was the front desk asking me to settle my bill early, because they don't know if credit cards are gonna work, once these sanctions come into force. the other part of a sanctions package goes after russia's central bank, and it paralyzes some of their assets. and that may prove to be even more significant. and i'll tell you why. back since 2014, putin has been building something of a financial war chest, with the goal of propping up the rubble, the russian currency, in the event of western sanctions. but these measures make it very difficult for him to access that war chest. and it may mean that the value of the rubble just tumbles over

the next couple of days. and with it, we may see inflation in the russian economy. and that, jasmine, may take a real toll on ordinary and middle class russians, who have nothing to do with vladimir putin's war. but you may see their savings wiped out, as the currency falls. so we are bracing for a potential runs on banks, and the next couple of days, as the sanctions kick in. jasmine? >> ralph, talk to me about the protests as well happening inside the country right now. i've heard anecdotally, russian soldiers unaware of what they're doing, what their mission is, what their endgame is. you when i spoke about this yesterday evening as well. that they're actually tasked with killing ukrainians. they didn't even know that until they were asked to invade. this putin feeling this lack of public support for this war? >> that is a great question. vladimir putin's more cut off now, russians will tell you,

then he has been at any point in his 22 years in power. the russian people haven't heard from their leaders since friday afternoon, when he appeared on state television, calling the kenyan government a bunch of neo-nazis and drug addicts. so we really don't have a good sense of whether putin is feeling the pressure the international community is trying to apply to him, all the pressure that is starting to rise up from russian civil society, the number of russians arrested for taking part in protests in the last couple of days is now at 3000. and the russian state media regulator it's working overtime to censor russian media outlets. it's really interesting, jasmine, they're not allowing russian media outlets to refer to what's going on inside ukraine, as a war, as an invasion, as an attack. the russian government's preferred term is special military operation. and any russian media outlet that deviates from that is

being censored. we also talked a bit about social media yesterday. twitter is at a sluggish pace here. it's been throttled by the russian government. facebook is also loading very slowly. so it seems like the russian government is really trying to cut down on channels of communication. it's not clear how much the russian public knows about what's going on on the battlefield in ukraine. and as you said, it is not clear how much russian soldiers, on the battlefields, know about what they're doing their. jasmine? >> yeah, i can't help but wonder how this is all gonna play out over the next couple of days. how long the ukrainians can actually hold the resistance, and how long the russian soldiers will continue to fight without really an endgame or ambition in mind, and saying the support for the ukrainians happening inside their own country, inside russia, inside the city of moscow. for now, nbc's raf sanchez, i'm gonna speak to a bit later on. but thank you for your reporting on this.

>> i want to turn now to my panel this evening. joining me now, former spokesperson to the u.s. mission to the un, and former nfc director to the auto ahmed menstruation. and jonathan alter, presidential historian, and msnbc political analyst. and paul mcleary, defense reporter at politico. welcome to you all. thanks for joining us this evening. i'm gonna start with you on this one, and i can't help but compare what we are seeing, in ukraine, to what took place in afghanistan. when ashraf ghani left to left his people, as the taliban was descending on the city of kabul. and we heard the vitriol, the fear, the anger from the afghans inside that country. feeling as if they have in fact been abandoned, not only by their own leader, their president, but the americans as well. and there was no plan in place to get them out. and now, we have a very

different situation. a stark difference, right? but volodymyr zelenskyy, not only staying in his country, but fighting on behalf of his country and the people that he is leading, despite the fact that he was given a means to get out. what do you think that is doing for they cranium people now, in the throes of this war of this russia? >> it is a huge sonic for the ukrainian people. you remember that quote of just yesterday, that i think will live in his story. where zelenskyy said i need ammunition, not a right. i didn't want to get airlifted out, and leave my people. he's actually wearing ammo and battle gear, which makes it harder for assassination squads to kill him, because much of the time, he's fighting shoulder to shoulder in the

field. apparently, he's not in a safe house where he could be more easily betrayed. but out with the troops. this is an enormous, this paints an enormous morale, which is an extraordinarily high, and it also creates an international movement behind him. so the contrast of afghanistan couldn't be more sharp. you also have the difference of a nation that has been through 20 years of war, and was really fatigued with the fighting. and now, you have ukraine, which is defending itself, and it's home turf, and even though outnumbered by the russians, has many other advantages in defending homeland. i didn't say one other thing about afghanistan. i think there is a legitimate comparison to afghanistan, and that's to what happened to the soviets after they invaded in 1980. and they, you know, imposed a puppet regime, and eventually, they were forced out of

afghanistan, and that led, at least indirectly, to the collapse of the soviet empire. that was the soviet vietnam. i think this time, you know, the russians will be forced to leave much sooner than the nine years that it took afghanistan. >> it's interesting that you bring this up. you can kind of weigh in on this. i don't talk about the refugee crisis that it seems like it's gonna be happening over the coming days, as people of course are filling across the border. but jonathan brings up a really important point, the endgame here for vladimir putin. is it to overtake give? eventually the rest of the country, to put a puppet in place. i mean, he's done it and other countries. he took a high aid for being a president in russia, and put medvedev in power. knowing he could literally be the puppet master, while he was the president of moscow, and of russia i should say, and putin was the prime minister.

do you expect the same thing to happen here inside ukraine? or do you agree with jonathan, that this is gonna be a much more short-lived, and not accomplished goals that putin set out to gain? >> i do believe that in the long run, or maybe hopefully in the short run, that president putin will find a major calculation. he will cause a lot of destruction, and death, and horror in the way. but i do think, especially when you see how the world is uniting, it's really in speech inspirational. it's really remarkable the way presidents ellen ski's leading. i get goose bumps, with your introduction of sharing with us what he said. and that's exactly what's needed right now. we can't underestimate the power of civic resistance. and what that means here. so i do agree. first of all, i don't think that president putin or the russian government in general can afford to control ukraine.

they can -- there wobble is crashing, as it is. russia's economy was not doing that well. and now, with the sanctions, they're going to be under an immense amount of pressure, as raphael mentioned earlier from moscow, right? so what you have now, i don't think it would be the case. it would work out and president putin's favor, to put a puppet there, and you can see that's really a strategy he's playing. and president biden, and the administration, and sharing all their intelligence, and i really personally find that aspect of their strategy to be fascinating and amazing to just share intelligence that they declassified on a regular basis, so that they can make sure this record is consistently set straight. and they have set, previously, and the united kingdom said that president putin had a plan to put in a pro russian leader. and so, you can see that with russia's doing now, with the russian government is doing is building that pressure to hold a knife to ukraine's throat, not the other way around.

and say that, you know, this is gonna be worse, unless president zelenskyy steps down. and his civic resistance is gonna be a key part in communicating to president putin that he can't succeed in doing that, because the people of ukraine will continue to be a thorn in his side. >> talk to me quickly here about what's happening with ukrainians. they're fleeing to the borders. the crossing over into europe, and it seems as if europeans, european politicians, european leaders, with open arms, welcoming them into their countries, sometimes even without passports. this is in stark contrast to what we saw, when it came to syrian refugees, north african refugees, not last that long ago when there was a refugee crisis taking hold in europe. and they were being turned away at the borders. >> it's a bit difficult to compare, not because they need isn't the same.

these are all humans, and they're all fleeing for their lives. and they all deserve safe asylum, and they deserve -- and we don't want to lose the generation children that you end up having with these refugees. but ukraine is part of europe, right? and so, that's how the europeans are reacting. and i do think there is a little piece there. there is an unwillingness, as we can see, to fight russia, militarily, on behalf of the united states or european nations. and i'm not debating that. there is a reason for that. if you were to have the united states engage the russian military, it would be a war of catastrophic proportions. you don't want to superpowers going to war, without being contained. that being said, the u.s. and europe, you can see, they're trying to roll out every option taken thing, to help the situation. and so, while sanctions are getting heavy part of the press, and heavy expectations coming out of sanctions, one of the

things i repeat is that, it's only one part of this broad strategy. and that strategy includes, obviously, military aid, which is a huge part, supporting that population of ukraine. diplomatic negotiations were on the table. i don't know that's gonna be the case, now that putin is sanctioned. and, providing humanitarian aid, and help ukrainians as much as they can. so that is always a key part. when i handled syria at the white house, it was a key part as well. however, you don't want this conflict to drag on to the point where you have as many refugees as you had in syria. and to be honest, the countries in the middle east, like the gulf in particular, could have really stepped up in taking syrian refugees, and helping them. and they did not do a thing, right? it was the poorer countries around them, like lebanon, jordan and turkey. and that's a separate story for another day. but i hope it doesn't get to that point with ukraine. >> paul, i want to take a

listen quickly to ambassador michael mcfaul who was on msnbc a little bit earlier, talking about putin's motivation with all of this. >> there's no rationality here, he is motivated by some crazy ideas. i want to emphasize that. he's talking about denazification. there are no nazis in ukraine. ukraine is not a nazi, these are democratically elected leaders. he is jewish. he is not a nazi. we've got to treat him as an irrational, evil leader. >> so my question here, paul, is who in this is vladimir putin actually playing to? because the world is calling his bluff on this. you hear michael mcfaul they're calling out his bluff. we all know, to a certain extent, the russian president is lying about this. so who is he playing to?

>> well nato in general. the united states in particular, nato overall. this is vladimir putin fighting a war in ukraine for seven years now. he's not winning that war. so this is a continuation of the war that he started in 2013 in the husk. and this is his way to solve the ukraine question. nato has built up over the last several years, not really on russia's borders, not in the way he describes it. and he's testing the lines here and he's looking at the airlines altogether, if the nato alliance will help the ukrainians, if the nato alliance will see to his demands to move back pre 1997 levels which means all the baltic countries, hungary, romania, things like that, will not be nato members anymore. so you want to see if that will give him -- its very clear over the past 72

hours that they are not what >> i am going to ask my panel to stick with me, we have a lot more to talk about. why european countries are holding russia accountable. we will be right back. holding russia you can be well-mannered. (man) oh, no, no, after you. wahoooo! (vo) you can be well-groomed. we will be right back. or even well-spoken. (man) ooooooo. (vo) but there's just something about being well-adventured. (vo) adventure has a new look. discover more in the all-new subaru forester wilderness. love. it's what makes subaru, subaru. ♪ ♪ before you go there, or fist bump there, or...oh! i can't wait to go there!

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tonight, the ukrainian ambassador to the united states saying her government is sending allegations of war crimes to the hague, the side of the international criminal court, noting that children have in fact been injured and killed across the country. >> we are absolutely appalled by the russian crimes against humanity which we see throughout ukraine. in the last 27 -- hours, they attacked kindergartens and orphanages. we are recording all of this. we are preserving all of this. and we will immediately be transferring all of this to the hague.

>> all right, i'll bring my panel back to talk about this. i want to get your thoughts on potential war crimes here when it comes to the russian invasion into ukraine. >> what is ukrainians -- by recording the war crimes is the right thing to do. and i'm happy -- happy as a strong word to use in a situation like this, but i am proud and i'm glad that they are doing it in that they are doing it so quickly because later on you can use the hague, we, the united states, europe, the un is a lost cause at this point because russia is a permanent member of the security council. but one of the things that i used to say is one day, these thugs will face their day in court. and the only way to ensure that is to have a proper record of every atrocity that they commit. so the way you have social

media now, phones, it's easy to require these things and verify them. so i was pleased to see this development, they are focused on this, they are thinking long term. i really do think, between that and president zelenskyy's -- was his leadership and stamina, the way he hasn't fallen, that president putin will be over soon that will be hard for him, not only to try to seize ukraine, but to maintain any kind of public support back home. because if he can't go back home with some kind of win for a dictator, that bells demise in the future. >> paul, talk to me about the international criminal court, the prosecutor saying essentially his office may, quote, exercises jurisdiction over and investigate any act of genocide crime against humanity or war crime committed within ukraine. so it's not just that ukrainians that are observing this and collecting data for

potential prosecution when it comes to war crimes, but it's also the criminal court itself. how significant is this? >> why i think -- it's clearly significant. i think that what they are doing is putting russia on notice here. that we haven't seen -- we've seen some urban fighting, but not the street bloody, house to house five thing that's what we expected. if the russians going to the capital city, you will see that. the ukrainian people clearly, the government handed out weapons, they're making molotov cocktails. that's the kind of house to house hand to hand combat, where russia integral as nick have committed crimes in places like aleppo. the copper bomb the city. the russians have a different conception of human rights and a differing conception of civilian risk than western

governments do. so i think that what the european governments doing and the icc is doing is putting moscow on notice, if moscow cares enough, it's a different story, but there are watching, we're taking a hard look at this and obviously everyone has full phones. it's different than the last few times that the russians -- did this sort of thing. so it will be recorded. there will be broadcasts around the world and everyone will see it. i think that they will try to hide them off as much as they can, it's unclear how the russians are going to react. that's a new phase of the war that they haven't really done in the last few days. it might signal an intensification. >> tell me this, paul, what jurisdiction does the icc have over putin? ic>> i mean, they can bring up charges but if he doesn't leave the kremlin i don't think there's a lot they can do their,

right. dictators -- they've been brought up on charges, they stay at home in parachute and grab them. so, any more sanctions would be-ification, but there is always only so much they can do in the end. >> yes, that's touched on a friend about the isolation of putin, the isolation of mosque overall. we've been talking a lot about sanctions, obviously this move to isolate when it comes to swift banking, that can really squeeze the economy inside moscow. not only squeezing the leaders, but not only squeezing vladimir putin, but on down. this overarching idea that if they can squeeze russians, russians will then recognize and rise up against their own leader in favor of the ukrainians. what do you make of this? >> well, first of all, i don't

think that putin is going to pay any attention to the icc, and unfortunately, the violence is going to get worse in the next few days by every indication. and the sanctions are mostly punishment. they really will not deter him ultimately and they won't, i don't think, lead to the oligarchy's revolting against him because he has total control what. they have no leverage on him. the bankers in moscow, they are his beck and call. so i don't think it's going to be a way to necessarily pressure him. having said that, in every war in the last 75 years, in the opening days of the, war the government has a rally round around flagged quality that happens where in any society, whether it's united states or anyplace else, it took any just -- five years for dissent for the

vietnam war to develop. in this case the was five hours in -- if there's this much domestic opposition to the war now, wait until the occupation gets bogged down. wait until the puppets get knocked off by ukrainians. one after the other. wait till the body bags start coming home to moscow. the real way to pressure putin's on the ground. and that is happening in ukraine. he is in a world of trouble even though he has military superiority, he's isolated in the world. he's strategically at a huge disadvantage. and on the ground, the ukrainians not only have the home field advantage and the morale that they can last him out, pull out, and he will eventually be forced to leave with his tails between his legs. that almost certainly will happen. eventually. after a lot of bloodshed. eventually after >> yeah, just how long its

gonna take really. >> that's right. >> that's the question. >> do hagar chemali, jonathan alter and paul mcleary thank you as well. how social media companies are working to restrict russian disinformation? that's next. restrict russia disinformation that's next. certified turbocharger, suspension and fuel injection. translation: certified goosebumps. certified from headlamp to tailpipe. that's certified head turns.

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so in modern day war, there are physical battlefields, and virtual ones. people all over the world of following what's happening inside ukraine by social media. not surprisingly, the putin regime is trying to combat criticism of its invasion on those platforms, or at least keep it from being consumed by russian citizens. on friday, russia's communication minister partially restricted access to facebook within the country, claiming the platform had quote, violated the rights and freedoms of russian citizens, by allegedly censoring a number of state media and broke

rambling news outlets. facebook, pushing back, saying it will not stop fact checking information from these outlets, because of russian objections. that news came a day after ukraine called on twitter to remove russia's official account from that platform. twitter confirmed today that russia has now limited, if not completely restricted twitter access, within some areas of that country, meaning people are not seeing what is happening inside ukraine. at the heart of the matter is misinformation and disinformation that russia has spread in recent weeks, leading up to this invasion. they made false claims, suggesting that ukraine has been the aggressor, and committing genocide in pro russian eastern regions. ultimately, one of putin's many pretext for invasion. some of the propagandist coming in in the form of advertising, forcing companies like youtube to rethink, whether or not to allow russian state back media to run ads on their site. and as the invasion is escalating over the last few days, social media coverage is fighting themselves on the frontlines this time, whether

they want to be or not. they must now filter out the disinformation being weaponized by the putin regime. not silencing the voices documenting the invasion as well, as those fighting it. coming up, we're gonna break down the latest sanctions against russia and putin himself. we'll be right back. nst russia andin many more citis himself. so more businesses can do more. mike's bike shop! downloading up to 10 times faster. whoa! is that already... (mike) yeah. we'll be right back. 5g ultra wideband is faster and safer. would you look at rhea's real estate game? closing in low lag, crystal clear hd. it's a new day for more businesses! 5g ultra wideband is now in more and more places. verizon is going ultra, so your business can too. >> welcome back everybody.

so tonight, world leaders are

putting new economic pressure on russia. hours ago, the u.s. and european allies agreed to remove key russian banks from the inter bank messaging system, swift. this is an extraordinary step many have been asking for. that will sever the country for much of the global financial system. the joint statement that the block of countries release still leave some actual technical details, and the specific question lenders that will be cut off from swift, unclear. that said, the commitment to take action, a commitment that just days ago, appear to be off the table, due to european objections, gives us some major insight to how quickly the minds of world leaders are in fact evolving, as they are watching this work take place inside ukraine. joining me now, jim townsend, former deputy assistant defense secretary for europe, and nato, under president obama. also with me, adam smith, international trade partner and former sanctions adviser under president obama. welcome to you, gentlemen. thanks for joining me on this. adam, let me start to you on

this one. i want to get your assessment here for the decision to select russian banks from swift. >> thank you so much for having me. i mean, the most important thing as simply you said, swift is clearly on the table. 24, 48 hours ago, it wasn't. i think the most important thing is that they're willing to use swift, which was used very much as a nuclear measure so to speak. i think there is some doubt whether or not we'll have to policy in quotations that people hope it will. but certainly, the fact that they're willing to remove some of these institutions from swift suggests that not only they want to do swift, but perhaps do even more. so, i too was in heartened to see what what they're doing, but obviously they were doing in lockstep with each other. >> so i think a follow-up question here, is why not go full tilt here. why select russian banks? why not all of them at once, fully isolated? >> well, i think part of that is that they're concerned about the energy sector.

it is still wintertime. there is still in need, unfortunately, because of the dependency on russian gas. there is a need for that gas to help heat european homes. so they're approaching this a bit by bit, not only to make sure they don't make things hard, harder on europeans. but they're holding some things in reserve to. if you fire all your guns at once, and there's an escalation by the russians, you don't have a lot to then sanction putin with, if things really get bad. and we have to look to the future because i'm afraid this is gonna get worse before it gets better, in terms of the fighting. and we're gonna need to have some sanctions on our back pocket, to throw at putin, when it gets really hot. >> i, am i would argue right now, the things already bad, right? more lives will continue to be lost. some folks would argue, why not look to saudi arabia? why not discuss this with other oil producers and say, listen,

you have to fill this gap now, before taking russia out of the game, especially when it comes to europe. we remember the president spoke steam, the american people just a few weeks ago, saying this is going to affect us. this is going to affect our economy. this is specifically going to be affecting our energy sector, separate of course from what's happening, or what will happen in your, because we don't necessarily get gas from russia. but of course, are gas prices are gonna be, are gonna be going up. so again, almost the same question to you, which is, why not go full tilt to completely isolate them, as we have, when it came to iran, as we have when it comes to someone like bashar al-assad, as we have when it comes to north korean leader -- >> i think it's a great question. the most important thing to remember is that russia is not any of those countries. russia is twice the combined size of every other country the u.s. has ever sanctioned. there are significant collateral consequences and risks, not just our allies, which ourselves, if we do that.

and i think that's why they're trying to weigh very very carefully. and, what you call half stats, i think they're actually strategic steps, ratcheting up, it's another third branch of sanctions just past week. they could have more. i'm assuming they will have more. in fact, it was announced today, are not sanctions that were imposed with respect to swift, central bank of russia, with other measures that will be imposed as regulations are written over the next few days. so i think that the wrapping it up, and trying to moderate and mitigate the consequences. and if you don't want to hurt ourselves, we don't hurt average russians, the enemy here is putin. it is not average russians, or certainly, not average ukrainians. so when i make sure that we are careful and clever and calibrated with what we do. we know that the collateral consequences would be unprecedented. we want to reduce them for ourselves and for our friends. >> jim, here's the other concern here. and that is, the person who's gonna fill the gap. the countries that are gonna fill the gap. i'm not talking about saudi filling the oil gap, when it comes to europe. but i'm talking about china

filling the gap when it comes to moscow, when it comes to trade, when it comes to money, right? we know with iran trying to doing just that. they have kept, to a certain extent, iran open. how do you, how do you go about that? how do you make sure that russia is not still able to operate with the help of china, as they were being sanctioned to the hilt, to make sure or to get them to back out of ukraine? >> well, you're not gonna be able to stop all of our own runs and the loopholes that putin already knows how to find. you know, he's been under sanctions for years. certainly, since 2014, when he originally invaded ukraine, he's been sanctioned afterwards as well. so we know, we have a system. but i think what you're seeing now is such incredible unity. certainly within the european nations and european businesses.

that wasn't as tight as it had been in the past. now it's tight, and it's getting tighter. and i think this swift situation showed us that, where italy in germany where the holdouts. italy went first, followed by germany, in terms of green to deploying that's backs out of swift. when it comes to china, i think that's always been the question. you know, can china fill all these gaps? and it's surprising to learn that china can't fill all those, and china doesn't necessarily want to fill all those gaps either. china's looking after itself, in its best interest, and they're not necessarily happy that putin has gone the violent route of invading ukraine, because it's that for chinese businesses in europe. so, there is a certain aspect of the chinese, in terms of their willingness. and being able to actually help putin deal with the sanctions.

and so, you know, it's gonna be harder for him, this time around, to find ways to get out among the sanctions. to find a country that's gonna give him the back door. everyone is closing rights whether they're doing it because they support ukraine, or they're doing it like china, because it's bad for business with putin is doing, and don't try to protect some of their markets. >> it's interesting, jim. as we speak about china, because, you know, china, it can be argued as watching this strategically when it comes to taiwan. how does the world obviously react, right? in the overtaking of a sovereign nation. and we understand obviously, the complex relationship between china and taiwan, and how this is something that it could feasibly apply to a situation like that. so that is why i wonder whether or not china would be willing to fill that gap? subsequently wanting of the

roles where to be reversed, to have putin support, if china decided to make that decision to go into taiwan. >> well, you know, it's interesting. i think there are a lot of assumptions made early on, particularly after putin and xi jinping came up with that statement during the olympics, that they were gonna work with one another. you know, against the united states, and support of each other's approaches to how they conduct themselves, internationally. but if you look at it, there was no endorsement by china of the tactics that russia uses, in terms of dealing with its problems inside europe. the russians have a very heavy-handed way, as we've seen, not just inside ukraine, but in georgia to. they bully their neighbors. they have a different approach than the chinese to, in terms of handling the problems. we certainly have seen the

chinese fortify those south china sea islands, and that type of thing. but when it comes to taiwan, i think that the chinese approach is much more long term and nuanced. they're not going to approach this as a butcher, the way

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