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tv   The Mehdi Hasan Show  MSNBC  February 27, 2022 8:00pm-9:00pm PST

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good evening, everyone. you're watching msnbc's continuing coverage of the crisis in ukraine, as the russian invasion enters its fifth day. president vladamir putin is raising the stakes again, ordering his country's nuclear forces to be put on high alert.
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this is an unprecedented action that comes just as the two nations solidify plans to meet for diplomatic talks at the belarus order. even with a meeting on the books, there is no signs that moscow is backing down from its offensive. that is, at least slowing down. hours ago, this massive russian military convoy was spotted moving towards the ukrainian capital of kyiv. in a statement issued sunday morning, the ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy laid out the stakes, saying -- >> the ukrainian president has become a household name overnight around the world. before this, he was best known to americans for his involvement in the action that led to president trump's first itch
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peachment -- first impeachment trial. before that, he played on a tv show. in 2019, he entered the life of politics just months before ukraine's presidential election. he had no prior experience or really any solid policies to run on. instead, he based his campaign around a promise to inject integrity into ukraine's leadership. during that campaign, his aides were known for one mantra, you don't need experience to be president, you just need to be a decent human being. that turned out to be far more powerful than what we anticipated. it is what he has separated him from the authoritarian leader just across the border. he has stood by his promise to remain in kyiv, regularly
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releasing videos like this one, where he speaks directly to the ukrainian people. he has emerged as not only the symbol of the ukrainian resistance, but a leading figure in the global fight to defend democracy. let's start this hour with erin mclaughlin who is in the western part of the country in lviv. a lot of developments with the news of this meeting that is supposed to take place on the border between ukraine and belarus. and putin's move to put those deterrence forces, those nuclear deterrent forces on high alert. has either one of these new announcements shifted the situation or the reality on the ground just yet? >> reporter: the fierce fighting continued on sunday, with the russians shelling from all sides, according to ukrainian officials. and while the ukrainians may be
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outgunned, there's no shortage of moral support for them throughout the country. in kharkiv sunday, a street battle against the invading russians. a handful of ukrainian troops firing off guns and heavy weaponry. going into this war, some thought they would be easily overpowered by russia's military. but behind these soldiers, millions of ukrainians joining the fight any way they can. >> we have here ukrainian army, real heroes. >> reporter: in her neighborhood in kyiv, she says she's put down her brush, now mastering the art of maing a molotov cocktail. >> so we have this molotov cocktail preparation department. then the kid's room, and then
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cooking room. >> reporter: similar scenes across the country. how-to instructions broadcast on state tv. even the former prime minister going viral with his demonstration, potentially potent tool against an enemy that has the advantage in the air. my colleague, matt bradley, running for cover. >> we were able to go right below our hotel to this underground parking garage, but not everyone is so lucky. >> reporter: in lviv, thousands seeking safety. an immigrant from lebanon, now working to save his adopted country. his world war ii bomb shelter turned nightclub is a sanctuary for ukrainian refugees. >> i've been living here ten years. it's been home for me. even if i was not born here, i'm ready to die here. >> reporter: he's collecting donated items, providing food,
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converting the club into a place for the people to sleep. >> the people want to do many things. >> reporter: this war is already taking a staggering toll. just five days in, 352 civilians have died, including 14 children. that's according to ukraine's interior ministry. >> erin, do we have any updates on these talks? when will they start? who will be participating from the ukrainian side or do we have a blackout on any details? >> reporter: we don't have a timing for the talks just yet. we know they're taking place in belarus on monday, today. ukrainian delegation will be going into the country, but we have no further details other than that. >> erin, live for us in lviv. thank you so much. let's continue this conversation with my panel. mark jacobson, former senior
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adviser to ash carter. betsy swan is a national correspondent. and ann simmons is the moscow bureau chief for "the wall street journal," who is currently in the russian capital. great to have you with us. mark, allow me to start with you. i want to start with what everyone has been describing as a profile in courage. president zelenskyy here. when he ran for office in 2019, part of his plat form was a promise to negotiate peace with russia over their seizure with crimea. he often was criticized for seeking compromise with moscow. has his leadership and resistance in this crisis, during this invasion, come as a surprise based on how he got to office? >> it certainly comes as a surprise for some people. but regardless, it's really been delightful to see him as a
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wartime leader, not just encouraging the people, but saying i'm with you, i will stand with you, in a stark contrast to many world leaders. at the same time, he also seemed to have been very effective on the international stage, in particular it appears as though he was really a deciding factor in convincing the europeans to bring on some of the strongest sanctions we have seen yet. so surprise or not, it's critical, and i think it's something that could make or has already made a difference in helping to stop this initial russian onslaught. >> ann, i'm curious to get your thoughts on this. you know russia a lot better than i do, and vladamir putin has to be watching the attention and the praise and the way zelenskyy has been handling this crisis. certainly, the attention he is receiving, and in some ways, whenever russia was putting out the material that he has fled or the ukrainian government has left or calling on the military to abandon the leadership.
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you would see the ukrainian leadership, led by zelenskyy, going out and posting those videos on social media that would go viral. do you think the russian leadership underestimated this young, ukrainian leader? >> well, i think there has been a level of miscalculation on the part of the kremlin. it certainly looked as though in the very beginning they thought they might easily overrun ukraine, and they are facing a battle. there's increasing pressure on mr. putin. he has raised the stakes, particularly by putting his deterrent nuclear forces on high alert. this shows a kind of state of mind that is under pressure. so the kremlin in many ways, has underestimated the fight that is now in his hands. >> betsy, there was a little bit, i don't know if confusion is the right word, but a lot of wondering about what this actually means.
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putin's decision to put his military's nuclear deterrent on alert. how does that change anything from an american perspective in the way that they're conducting their policy right now, and, you know, biden has obviously his red lines. no american troops in ukraine. but you've got to wonder if, again, this nuclear war threat from russia, or at least this nuclear deterrent threat from russia, changes the dynamics and the calculations from washington. >> there's no question that in a major es kalatory step from muten. in terms of what washington does next is very much to be seen. we know that they are in the process of rolling out incredibly bruising sanctions. they have the potential to cause an economic crisis in europe, particularly sanctions targeting russia's central -- i'm sorry, economic crisis in russia.
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this package of sack shu sancti targeting russia's central bank. that's an extraordinary step. the extent to which europe and the united states are using almost every economic tool at their disposal to punish russia for what they have done in ukraine is really stunning. and it's hard to overstate just how far the u.s. and europe are in the process of going. they could go further in terms of sanctions. but even what they have right now is substantial. so the fact that putin is taking the escalation, while disturbing, isn't shocking. it's cop sis temperature with the way putin behaves on the world stage. >> mark, to that point, you have to wonder if that makes this situation right for a miscalculation on the part of russia and the russian leadership as they execute and
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prosecute this war. i wanted to get your reaction to something that senator mark warner said this morning to my colleague, chuck todd. take a listen. >> over the last couple of years, putin has been more and more isolating. he's been at his place in sochi or outside of moscow. when you are an authoritarian leader and you have less and less input and only hearing from people that want to say to the boss, hey, you're right, i think that leads to miscalculation. i think that is what has happened in the case of this invasion in ukraine. >> so you're assessment with the senator's assessment, do you agree with his reading of vladamir putin's decision making process? >> yes. but there's good news and bad news. the bad news is we have seen in the united states what happens when there's a leader who doesn't listen to anybody who will say nothing but yes. and it's no different than with putin. it increases the likelihood of
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miscalculation. but the good news is something that betsy said, this is consistent with putin and consistent with russian military doctrine. it's like, it's week two, don't forget to mention nuclear weapons. i'm not as concerned about that statement. i actually think that it could be another situation where putin's overplayed his hand. and it could create a negative reaction amongst his own officials and amongst the russian people. and the danger for the united states and europe is not to overreact. i have not seen that at all. the responses so far have been very matter of fact. that's nice, our forces are always on alert. they're a strategic deterrent. again, i think this is a matter of course. but in terms of other miscalculations, there's a real danger there as putin becomes more isolated. >> just from my reading, this could have changed, but i've not seen any confirmation that the military in the u.s. or the u.s.
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intelligence community believes that the russians have executed their deterrent nuclear capabilities yet. so it may have -- >> that's correct. >> ann, i wanted to ask you about information here for a moment and misinformation, because obviously that is a huge component in the way russia operates. today, you had the european union announce a ban on the state-owned russia today and sputnik media outlets. state-owned media that is a huge part of the russian propaganda tool. that's really for the outside world, so to speak, in terms of russia today and what have you. what kind of impact of banning it have domestically on russia and the way the west perceives what is happening inside russia? >> i would say certainly not as much impact on the russian populace. most of them receive their information from russian state media. and television is a big factor
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for the average russian. now, the state media has been following the narrative that mr. putin has put out, basically saying that this is a necessary conflict. we are protecting russians. we are protecting russia's national interest. the west is guest us. the world is against us, and we have to fight back. now, if you're the average russian watching state television, you're going to think that everyone is against the russian nation, and the fact is that nato is on russia's doorstep. you're going to believe that nato is out to destroy russia. and you're also going to believe, if you're following the narrative, that ukraine wants to have nuclear weapons and wants to target russia with those weapons. having said that, not everyone is adhering to this particular narrative. we have seen many russians go
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out onto the treat to protest as a huge cost, because it's dangerous to do so in russia today. there have been several people detained, despite the fact that they have gone against the government and gone out there, despite the fact that the government has tried to prevent people from going out. we have seen from many courageous journalists saying we're not going to adhere to this narrative. this is not russia. this is mr. putin is what you'll hear them say. one last point i'll make, polls have shown that over 50% of the russian population, at least before this invasion, were very much in favor of the independence of eastern ukraine, the donbas region, where mr. putin recognized two breakaway areas. people were in favor of that, because they feel that russians
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there were being discriminated against and they were going in, the russian army that is, to protect that population. >> yeah, by some assessment, it seemed like that was going to be the end of this, but turned out not to be. certainly, the u.s. and the u.s. intelligence community knew otherwise. so we'll talk about that in a little bit, as well. i'm going to ask you all to stick around. still ahead, the question, how should the u.s. respond to putin's nuclear provocation? i'm going to ask the panel after the break. m going to ask the par the break.
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public outrage continues to grow as putin doubles down on his commitment to invading ukraine. in fact, protests have erupted around the world, with thousands turning out to support the citizens of ukraine currently under attack. will this public show of support
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help make the case for countries to give even more aid to ukraine? let's go back to our panel of experts. mark, what impact, if any, will these protests have upon, a, how countries respond to ukraiian request for aid, and b, the decision making process by moscow? >> i think this is one of three big things where the russians have miscalculated. first is the resistance put up by the ukrainians. the second is zelenskyy's leadership. and the third, this global response. i think that this is going to do two things. one, it's going to help the morale of the ukrainian people. again, the assistance can't just be for refugees but whether it's rebuilding and frapgfrankly, as
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say, they need weapons, not just a ride as they put it. there was a move by the europeans that's going to allow some sort of defensive arms to flow into ukraine. the other piece is that i think nations have to keep up the messaging that private organizations have to keep appealing, because this is going to go on for a while. the ukrainians will need help not just this week or next week, but when they need to rebuild later on. >> we learned that bp is exiting its $14 billion stake in russian oil giant over moscow's invasion of ukraine. bp's 19.75% in the company accounted for a third of the british company's oil and gas production. certainly more than half of its reserves. is this move going to be, again, another alarm bell going off for the russians to reconsider now that they have lost this major
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stake holder? >> it's going to be a blow to the russians. but having said that, we found that the more that the west has mushed against mr. putin, the more he has pushed back and become more resolute and determined. so it's really difficult to say at this point, because the russians have been very clear that they do not feel that sanctions will have any impact at all. these are the early days. they have said that, look, in 2014, we were sanctioned over the annexation of crimea and we still control crimea. these sanctions, however, of course are far more far reaching, far more punitive. and they could have a really severe effect. russia has been trying to sanction proof its economy. it's run a very kind of
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conservative fiscal policy. it's trimmed its budget. it's also been weaning the economy off the u.s. dollar as a cushion, and it's also been trying to diversify its trade portfolio of oil and gas is the lifeblood of the russian economy. and it will remain to be seen, these are early days, but when the markets open in russia today, we are also going to see whether or not, you know, there's a rush on the banks, what happens to the ruble, will it go into freefall? so these are early days. >> i was going to say anecdotally, i was just hearing from our correspondent who is based in moscow talking about some of the concerns businesses have about being unable to access s.w.i.f.t. and what that means for ordinary small businesses in russia. betsy, let's talk about back here a t home for a moment.
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two former immigration officials have sent a letter to the biden administration, asking for ukrainians to receive temporary protected status. do we have any indication what the response might be from the biden administration to this request or where their head is right now on accepting ukrainian refugees? >> i'm not aware of any signals the biden administration has sent, but rhetorically, it's presented itself as much friendlier overall to refugees than the trump administration did. although in practice, the steps the biden administration has taken broadly on refugees, and not always matched the rhetoric they have brought out. regarding this specific issue of tps, temporary protected status, it's the kind of thing that's likely to get broad support within the biden administration. temporary protected status makes it so that people of a protected nationality who are in the united states don't have to worry about getting deported back to their home countries for
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as long as that status is in place. and it gets renewed occasionally. it's called temporary. not something that lasts forever. but those renewals mean that often people who benefit from tps are able to live in the united states for years and find the safety and comfort in being part of this country. one former u.s. official who i talked about the tps process said it is likely it would take a month for the state department and the department of homeland security to get all their ducks in a row. it's a bureaucratic process, an inner agency process, not something that can get done overnight. that said, the government doing anything meaningful in just a month is still a big deal. and frankly, if my march there isn't tps protection for ukrainians, it will result in a ton of pressure on the biden administration to get that done. >> mark, i want to draw on your military expertise here.
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how would or could the united states be helping the ukrainians right now without engaged in any kind of fighting? do you think we are sharing with them intelligence on russian troop movements using whatever capabilities that we have? and second of all, how challenging is it for the u.s. and western allies to get the second wave of replenishments of anti-tank mines, the stinger missiles that the germans said they're trying to deliver to the ukrainian military, how difficult is an operation like that in the middle of russians conducting their invasion? >> right now, since the ukrainians hold so much of their territory, but it's not a problem getting these materiels in by land. obviously, -- respect going to be used -- aren't going to be used. first, it's important to keep
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this ukrainian a russian conflict. there are people itching to help, but it's really important that we shape it this way. we don't want u.s. forces fighting russian forces. we don't want nato forces fighting russian forces. again, there's weaponry that they have, that can be replenished. there are things we can do. i would be shocked if we are not providing ukrainians with as much intelligence as we can. we're not the only nation that has good intelligence capability that can help the ukrainians know where they need to be hitting the russians. so intelligence, getting the weapons to them, and another area that we could help is enabling the sort of information space. we should be continuing to battle russians in the information space, something we've been doing for a while. some of that is propaganda. some is in the cyber arena.
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but there are things we could be doing appropriately overtly and covertly, as well. i hope we're taking at least that covert approach. >> so to that point, and finally, i'm thinking the economy, i'm thinking the street protest, do we have any assessments from the russian military, at least how this operation has been unfolding from a russian vantage point. have they given any updates on casualty figures, on progress they made, are they striking a positive tone? i'm trying to think of what are the metrics that russians are using for whether or not this war is being executed satisfactorily. >> sorry, go ahead, ann. >> overall, it's been a very kind of positive portrayal of russia's military offensive. every day there are briefings in which you learn how many tanks have been taken out, how many casualties on the other side. how many cities and territories
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have been taken. of course, you need to corroborate this information that's coming out of the russian defense ministry. yesterday was the first time that the defense ministry came out and said yes, unfortunately, we have taken losses. they have not given any specific numbers. but they did hasten to say our losses are far less who they're calling nazis on the other side. and they're claiming that the ukrainian army is run by nationalists, and they have taken more casualties than the russian side. so far, russian -- the average russian person has not seen soldiers coming back in body bags, for example. there is a derth of knowledge in general in terms of how many casualties, indeed, the russians are taking. but on social media, you'll find on russian social immediate
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-- media, russians wondering why are they? and there are mothers coming out looking for their son, saying they can't find their son, what's happened to him? so it's very likely what we will expect in the coming days is that there will be more of an outcry, a public outcry in terms of wanting to know more about this military activity. >> yeah. i was going to say, if any of the people inside russia are able to see some of the social media that we have been able to see, you have to start to wonder whether or not there's going to be anger about how this war is being conducted. and whether or not the numbers the ukrainians are remotely true. they claim 3,000 russians have been killed. no way for us to verify that at this moment. thank you all for joining us this evening. greatly appreciate your insight and analysis. coming up, how one ukrainian town is staying strong and praying for peace. s staying strd s staying strd praying for peace.injection.
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ask your doctor about nurtec today. about 150 miles southwest of kyiv, orthodox worshippers in the ukrainian town attended church services for the first time since the russian invasion of their country began. as this church was filled for service, the priest told his congregation, bullets kill people, children die. these explosions, this is crazy. one parishioner told nbc news she could hear sirens on the way to the service. another woman said before she left for church, she had been hiding several times a day in the basement of her apartment. a reminder as ukrainians fight for their country and lives, they are still praying for peace. it's another example of ukrainians coming together, as putin isolates his people from the rest of the world.
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coming up, it's been a long time since a world leader not in north korea has so openly threatened to use its nuclear arsenal. how serious is putin's threat? we'll find out after the break. we'll find out after the break
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russia's war on ukraine escalated today as vladamir putin ordered nuclear deterrent forces to be on high alert, citing "illegal sanctions and aggressive statements by nato." putin signaled he's willing to engage in dangerous bringmanship. the announcement may be little more than smoke and mirrors, but it's difficult to buy into the idea that a nuclear threat is ever just smoke and mirrors. earlier, the former ambassador to russia tweeted --
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>> joining me now to discuss all this joe. great to have you with us. how concerning do you find putin's nuclear provocations to be? do you agree with that assessment? >> thank you for having me on. if you are worried by the news out of ukraine today, you are having a rational response to the situation. i'm with mike 100%. i know many people have talked today about this in terms of nuclear theory, that putin is nuclear signaling. that is, he doesn't really intend to use these weapons, but he is issuing a political message, trying to get the west to back off, try to achieve some geopolitical goals. and that's true. but this has real-world consequences. basically, during the basic
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level, the day-to-day level of alert that russia's nuclear forces are on, they cannot transmit a launch order, that the system is blocked from issuing -- implementing a launch order given by putin. what putin has done by raising to the elevated status, the second of four possible statuses for the forces, he's taken the safety off the nuclear gun. now the system is ready to go. ready to launch, should he give the order. and this has two real consequences. one is it raises the possibility of a launch by accident or miscalculation. a common problem during the cold war. and this is unprecedented. you said the word in the beginning of your show, this is an unprecedented move. to the best of my knowledge, this has never been done before, certainly not since the 1970s. certainly not in the history of the russian federation,
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established in 1991. the second thing it does is it raises the risk that if putin should start to lose this war, that he might seriously consider using these weapons. that he wants to not just signal that he's serious about this, but he would use the launch of one or more nuclear weapons to back off the west, to prevent defeat. >> i wanted to ask you about the psyche or mindset of the president here, there have been some murmurs that perhaps the pandemic has changed who putin is, that he's become more isolated and paranoid. just today former secretary of state condoleezza rice said she doesn't recognize putin any more. she said that he seems erratic, delusional, and that this is even a departure from putin from the man she worked with many years ago. do you have any read on that assessment? what do you make of it and othering like it? >> although i do have a
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psychology degree from boston college, i really can't diagnose a patient from this far away. but i have to say, it worries me. he fits the mold of various autocratic leaders around the world that are disassociated from reality, that have a lack of empathy. they don't really care what happens to other people, or even their own state. particularly when they're somebody like putin. for you, you are the state. so if he feels he's losing this war, and he could lose his power and maybe his life, i don't believe he would have any hesitations about using nuclear weapons. most of the ideas of deterrence are formed around the idea that we have rational leaders in control, who are making these decisions in a calm and consensus way. that is not vladamir putin. so yes, i would be very worried about where this could go.
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what is does that do for us here in the united states and western europe? how does that change our calculus in terms of how we engage with vladamir putin? if we see him going in the wrong direction on the nuclear war front, and things are escalating, in ways that perhaps we didn't anticipate, so how prepare and plan and what do you do? >> right. you make a good point. he's not threatened by nuclear weapons. he's making this threat in response to what he called aggressive comments from the west and illegal sanctions. for russia, we have the same strategy. they have a strategy of integrated deterrence, that all these instruments of coercion are on a seamless continuum, from economic tools, conventional, cyber, and nuclear. and that is supposed to strengthen deterrence.
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that's supposed to make it unlikely that he would get in a battle at the beginning. but the flip side is once you are in a battle, it's much easier to get to that higher level. so you have to do what basically the biden administration is doing. you move carefully, methodically, you preserve unity. you show that there's no one person that you can pick off. and you try to give them a diplomatic off ramp. like zelenskyy is doing, having the talks on the belarus border. we can't go into this thinking we're going to crush putin. because as he loses, the situation becomes more dangerous. finally, we have to -- if we get out of this in one piece, and when we get out of this, we have to have a serious conversation of what was wrong with our policies to get us into this situation in the first place. not just why is there a conflict in ukraine, but why does russia
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still have 6,000 nuclear weapons at 30 years after the end of the cold war? why didn't we move faster to eliminate these weapons when we had the chance, or reduce them to low levels and put in place a norm for no first use that no one should ever use nuclear weapons. why didn't we do that if we had the chance? if we get a second chance, we better not blow it again. >> i appreciate that analysis. it is a question when i spoke up this morning and i saw the headlines out of moscow, i started to ask myself, what do you do now? where does this go from here? let me pivot to something you just brought up, which is the safe-saving talks or perhaps an off-ramp for vladamir putin. you have the peace talks set to begin tomorrow morning on the belarusian border. what proposals will the russian delegation bring to the table or
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is it all for show? >> frankly, i do think it's a show. i think it's part of putin's disinformation campaign. you have reporting of what the moscow tvs are saying, what the russians are telling their own people. this is part of that. that he wants peace. but it also could be an opportunity for him to buy some time to try to reorganize what apparently is his disorganized offensive at this point. but in so far as there is a serious offer here, he's going to be looking at annexing parts of ukraine beyond the awe on the -- autonomy for these regions. he's going to want pledges from ukraine not to join nato or the eu. and those are going to be unacceptable to ukraine. so i'm afraid these talks are not going to go anywhere. what we could offer him is to
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start talking about reducing nuclear risks, taking some of our nuclear weapons out of europe, reducing his forces, talk about those missile intercepters that we don't really need. there's a lot of things that we could develop. i just heard the head of the nuclear threat initiative ticking off a series of initiatives we could take with putin that would be in our interest as well as his, and might give him a face-saving way out. >> very fascinating. joe, always a pleasure. i learn so much when i talk to you. >> you're very kind. thank you. still ahead, demonstrations are up around the word in solidarity with the ukrainian people. we'll zoom in on berlin, next. o.
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so if you'll bear with me, i want to take a step back to february 13th. hard to believe it was just a couple of weeks ago. that day, susan glasser tweeted this out -- >> those comments have stayed with me. glasser was right, of course. there was no major protests.
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i'm not sure why. perhaps all of us were lulled into a false sense of security because the notion of a russian war in ukraine was just so absurd. i certainly did. or maybe people around the world felt helpless. they felt that putin would invade regardless of how many demonstrators marched through the streets of new york or london or paris. whatever led to our inaction at the time, i'm glad we have been free from it, because take a look at these protests and images that surged today. just in berlin alone, some 100,000 people marching through the city, from the brandenberg gate to the russian embassy and soviet war memorial. masses took to the streets, even in australia, iran, japan. but frankly, i don't think any of them compared to the demonstrations we have seen break out across more than 50 cities inside of russia.
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authorities there have detained thousands upon thousands of protestors. they have beaten them and threatened them, but they keep coming out to stand in solidarity with ukraine. yes, these protests should have kicked off weeks ago, and maybe they would have changed vladamir putin's calculation. but better late than never. thank you very much for making time for us this evening. our coverage of a war in ukraine continues at the top of the hour. stay with us. hour stay with us (vo) verizon is going ultra! with 5g ultra wideband in many more cities. mindy! with up to 10x faster speeds, she can download a movie in minutes or a song in seconds. (mindy) yep! (vo) verizon is going ultra so you can do more. ♪ ♪
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right here in new york city. after this hour for you, russia's war on ukraine begins its fifth day. vladimir putin, now, facing every growing condemnation from around the world after the economic sanctions against russia central bank on saturday are seeing outcomes this hour. there is a sharp decline with the russian currency with a 20% lower. meanwhile, the european union announcing sunday it's closing airspace to all russian aircraft. that will deliver $500 million of military hardware including fire jets to the country. seemingly, the countered east development, putin,

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