>> richard, we can see over your solder your book there "war of necessity, war of choice." i recommend people read it. it is extremely timely right now. thanks for being with us today. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" all week long. "morning joe" starts right now. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, march 4th. another day of blood shed across ukraine as russian forces lay siege to major cities, targeting civilian areas including residential buildings. >> i'm going to talk for a second. >> that's the explosion after russian military strikes hit an apartment complex and two schools in the northern part of the country. local officials say at least 33 people were killed and 18 injured in the strikes while

rescue work had to be temporarily suspended due to the shelling. this as russian troops encircled and blocked another key port city in the north, creating what local authorities say is a humanitarian catastrophe. officials say the city is without heat, water and power due to constant shelling. russians also captured their first major port city of kherson yesterday after intense fighting, and while heavy bombardment continued in kyiv, the miles-long convoy outside the capital has made little progress over the last three days. according to a senior u.s. official, moscow has now moved 90% of its troops that were amassed around ukraine inside the country. willie. >> and a new development overnight. russian forces now control europe's largest nuclear plant after shelling the facility located in southern ukraine. one of the power stations six

reactors caught fire. a spokesman for the plant said the reactor is under renovation but does have nuclear fuel inside. ukraine's foreign minister tweeted if it blows up it will be ten times larger than chernobyl. russians must immediately cease the fire, allow firefighters to establish a security zone. the plant had been inaccessible because firefighters were being shot at. no essential equipment was damaged and the u.n. says no radioactive material was released. ukrainian president zelenskyy pleaded with europeans and their leaders to, quote, wake up, saying in part, we need to stop the russian military immediately. scream at your politicians. ukraine has 15 nuclear power blocks. if there is an explosion it is the end for all of us, the end of europe, he said. evacuation of europe, only immediate actions of europe can stop the russian military. do not let europe die from a nuclear catastrophe, end quote. zelenskyy also spoke with president biden and with british

prime minister boris johnson who said he will call for an emergency meeting now of the u.n. security council this morning. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel joins us from kyiv. richard, what more can you tell us how close to danger ukraine and all of europe really was last night? >> reporter: so, first before i get to that, i'm at the train station here in kyiv, and we have been seeing people rushing to this station this morning, trying to get out of the city. there is some confusion here. people aren't paying any tickets, so trains are just running, but it is not -- people aren't sure exactly where the trains are running, which tracks they should get on, which trains they should get on, but they're arriving with their families, with their parents, with their grandparents, with their pets and they're getting on any train that will go west. now, this is the second time that we've had a nuclear scare throughout this conflict. the first time was when there

was fighting by the chernobyl site, which was the former reactor, of course, that suffered that terrible meltdown. now there was fighting at a working nuclear power plant and a building going up in flames right next to it. according to u.s. officials, they're not seeing any radiation leak, but ukrainian officials are warning every time there is fighting by one of these nuclear facilities, and you have close fighting, artillery coming in, that there is a serious danger that one of the facilities could be damaged, destroyed, and it would have consequences for this country and all around the world, particularly europe. >> yeah, as you say, richard, it was an adjacent building. the fire has been put out, but perilously close to that nuclear reactor. yesterday, richard, president zelenskyy held a press conference. he called for a face-to-face meeting with vladimir putin. we want to show our viewers what you asked zelenskyy. >> reporter: you just mentioned that you want to talk to

vladimir putin. vladimir putin has so far not been willing to meet with you. do you have a message for him now that ukrainian cities are under attack? >> it is not about i want to talk with putin. i think i have to talk with putin. the world has to talk with putin because there are no other ways to stop this war. that's why i have to. >> first of all, richard, extraordinary circumstances there, a sandbag bunker for that press conference. do you expect zelenskyy to actually meet with vladimir putin? >> reporter: well, vladimir putin has made it quite clear he is not interested in meeting with zelenskyy, that he considers zelenskyy a neo-nazi fascist leader, which is a particularly insulting remark considering zelenskyy is jewish and just the other day one of the russian attacks fell on a site where 33,000 jews were

murdered during the holocaust, a holocaust memorial. but zelenskyy says he does not plan to leave the city even as russian forces gets closer. he desperately wants to meet with putin. he said that putin is the only person who can end this war. but when putin spoke yesterday with france's emmanuel macron he made it clear that the war is going to go forward, that it is going according to plan, and he said he will go until the end of the mission. he has made it clear that mission is getting rid of zelenskyy, not talking to him. >> nbc's richard engel live for us this morning from ukraine's capital city. richard, thanks so much. so, joe, you could hear an increased urgency yesterday and last night in president zelenskyy's voice around this attack at the nuclear plant. he said they're ready to not only control nuclear power around europe, but perhaps to shut it down and perhaps to blow it up, whether accidentally or not. the that fire is out thanks

goodness at the nuclear plant. but you can hear zelenskyy is begging for more help from the west. >> well, zelenskyy obviously terrified as are the people in ukraine and i would guess anybody reasonable and rational in europe and across the world also concerned about the fact that vladimir putin is now attacking nuclear power plants. it is a frightening scenario that continues to escalate. let's go over to the map, to the big board and talk to clint watts. he is there for us. former infantry man, now a distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy research institute. also a national security an list for nbc news and msnbc. clint, let's start with the nuclear power plant. show us where it is and the significance of its location. >> that's right, joe. zaporizhzhia is what we were talking about last night. a few key notes about it. we saw some video you might have seen out on social media of a fire fight in and around those reactors. what did the russians want to

do? they want to take control of the entire energy sector because they can do it when they're doing siege warfare like we're seeing in many cities around ukraine to take control of the power services. the more important point might be psychological, injecting fear into audiences. while we're trying to get to the bottom of what happened here last night, is it safe, i would bet russian disinformation broadcast back at home is saying this is the ukrainian's possibly using some sort of nuclear material or causing a blast. we saw it last week when chernobyl was taken back. the last thing i want to add from a military perspective is we keep seeing discussions of nuclear sites. nuclear sites also have massive rail heads. if you are an invading army with large armor formations, you are bogged down logistically and you want to move things quickly over time, taking rail heads, particularly those outside of city, is extremely important. there's another logistical component for them because they're not doing well on the roads right now. the other thing that i want to

bring up here is while we've talked about the first week and two days the russians really struggling, ukrainians overachieving, the russians are now using the combat power to take hold. several things have happened over the last 48 hours. first this unit in crimea, the peninsula they seized in 2014, it has created a land bridge to its forces here in donbas. these are surrounding the town of mariupol. this is total siege warfare, indirect fire, cutting off infrastructure. these folks are in for absolute disaster right now. separately, kherson, the other breakaway mika was talking about. kherson is essentially the mouth of the river as it enters into the black sea and there is a bridge here in kherson which allows the russian military to move to the western side of ukraine. if they can do that, they can possibly march all the way to the moldovan border, essentially sealing off this entire area

here. there would be no sea resupply, no way to get logistics in and it allows the russians to use things like landing crafts to bring in more forces more quickly in the south. bringing it back to the bigger picture, i think that's where we're at this morning. we have been talking a lot about the convoy, that it has been stuck there up in the north, but i think there's some bigger things to think about. they tried this initial move right here, trying to get into kyiv. you might remember a failed airborne assault which seem to have been an attempt to take down and topple the government real early. that convoy while bogged down, you are seeing them starting to make gains in through here. there was indiscriminate killing yesterday. not particularly significant unless you are building up here. you want to take the rear areas. you probably heard defense secretary kirby yesterday talking about these towns. if you are moving a massive army in and trying to take kyiv you don't want to be fighting insurgents in your rear area. you want to secure your logistics basis.

that brings us to the end. they're not marching from the south and from the east. their ultimate goal is to encircle kyiv and cut off all resupply over the ground from poland. >> so, clint, let me ask you, in the areas that are shaded pink -- and i do find that an interesting color scheme for russian troops. in the pink areas, is that -- are those areas where the russians have actually moved through, russian troops have moved through or would you say that those shaded areas are areas that they effectively control, because as you know there's a big difference. we certainly found it out in vietnam and then in iraq and afghanistan. it is one thing for your troops to move through and win battles and keep moving to a city. it is quite another to control it. what are we looking at here when we look at this map? >> yeah, severe miscalculation by the russian army, joe, across the board. they tried to move in with a

very daunting sort of blitzkrieg type of attack, they didn't integrate in the air around they didn't secure the rear areas. these cities will be filled with insurgents. it was mentioned that hundreds of thousands of troops would be needed to secure this. it means that putin's plan while audacious is flawed. >> clint, that's what i wanted to bring up to you. again, this is not wishful thinking. i know there's a lot of wishful thinking in early days of the war, but can you explain to our viewers how there just are not enough -- there are enough russian troops to blow up buildings and kill a lot of people, cause a lot of misery, but they do not have enough troops to control a country this size, do they? wherever they go, they're going to have insurgencies coming up behind them, around them, unless they flatten the entire country. even then you somehow sense the

ukrainians are going to figure out a way to do what the iraqis did to us in 2004, '05, '06, '08, '09? >> that's correct. invasions are easy, counterinsurgencies are extremely difficult. they found this out in afghanistan. we found it out in iraq. when you watch what they're doing here, they're trying essentially to just destroy major population centers in hopes of getting rid of any potential future insurgents. you heard negotiations about creating pathways for people to leave the city. from the russian's perspective, the fewer people in the city the fewer potential insurgents over the horizon and they can use direct fires, indirect fires to just cripple the cities but that will not work. what we've seen from the ukrainian people is this is an insurgent force. not only are they very well trained, better than we thought, they are now getting weapons like stingers, javelins, all of the anti-tank weapons are going in and you have russian soldiers that are very uneven.

in the south these units have done particularly well. up here in the north they've done awful. these are not crack troops that i learned about as an infantryman 30 years ago. these are russian forces, conscripts that don't really want to be in fight and they don't want to be fighting oftentimes relatives, friends, other russian ethnic individuals that are in ukraine that would be almost seen as brothers two weeks ago. >> thank you so much, clint. we will get back to you. mika, i got to say again looking at the map, of course, vladimir putin is behaving like a terrorist, a war criminal, and there is a shock-and-awe element to this invasion. but you would think someone who was going through his formative years working as a kgb agent during afghanistan, you would think he would understand that there's no way they're going to be able to hold down this country.

so, again, once again, it is why the invasion not only doesn't make sense to the west, it doesn't make sense to his own generals, to his own oligarchs. >> to his people. >> to his people, to the soldiers that are there, who thought they were being sent out -- these kids thought they were being sent out on exercises only to find out they were invading ukraine, a country where they have relatives. it is madness. >> and putin is growing more and more isolated, continuing to keep even his inner circle at a distance. nbc news senior international correspondent keir simmons has more from moscow on this. >> reporter: president putin standing for a moment of silence for russian soldiers killed in ukraine, later calling them heroes and insisting most ukrainians have been duped by ukraine's government. once again, his key advisers, ministers, military and intelligence chiefs, at a

distance, appearing via video link. and our reporting indicates senior members of the government were at times left out of the loop as president putin prepared for war. russia's foreign minister telling us questions about the president's state of mind are western lies. >> president putin is described by many in the west as erratic and isolated. >> translator: what and how putin does and how he acts, you are judging on the basis of what western propaganda is telling you. >> reporter: among the president's inner circle are his protection officers, members of an elite service with historical links to the kgb. insiders tell us they would give their life for him. they even control the russian president's nuclear black box. >> reporter: can you reassure the world russia would not fire a nuclear weapon in anger, would not fire a first strike? >> translator: we don't have

insane people. we have our military doctrine. >> and more loose talk of nuclear weapons by the russians. about 20 years ago ukrainian gave its nukes to russia in a deal that was supposed to guarantee the country's security. addressing the munich security council last month, ukrainian president zelenskyy mentioned that fact saying, quote, we don't have that weapon. we also have no security. the head of russia's foreign intelligence service claimed yesterday zelenskyy's statement meant ukraine had reconsidered its disarmament stance. they denied creating another nuclear weapon calling it another russian delusion. russian leaders are speaking a lot about nuclear weapons.

is this a concerted strategy. >> reporter: it may well be, but that message seems to be aimed at the west. we are closely watching russian state collision here as a window into what the kremlin wants people here to know and they're not talking about it. when it comes to the nuclear plant last night, russian state media talking as if this fire had spontaneously broken out at this nuclear plant as opposed to being started during an attack by russian forces. mika, we are seeing a kremlin more and more determined to stomp out any alternative to the official narrative of what is happening in ukraine. just this morning the russian parliament forced through a new law that means you can be imprisoned for 15 years for spreading what they call fake news about what's happening in ukraine. they are censoring the few remaining independent russian media outlets. it is not allowed to refer to

the military action in ukraine as an invasion, as and a war, as an attack. the term from the kremlin is special military operation and they are shutting down media outlets who say anything different. mika. >> raf, it is willie. good morning. there was kind of a chilling readout from the french government of president macron's call yesterday with president putin where effectively he reported that president putin said this is only going to get worse unless the ukrainians surrender, unless they come to the table and meet our terms, we're ready to make this much, much worse. his goal effectively is to take the country. we now that and now he is executing that. the sanctions put in place by the united states and the west have been ratcheted up. are you seeing any impact of that on the ground, on regular russian citizens and any indication that they're influencing putin's mindset at all? >> reporter: yeah, willie, we are hearing from ordinary russians whose lives have been turned upside down by these

sanctions. we spoke this morning to a young woman. she runs a successful health food company, but she's looking to move to argentina. she told us there's no future here and we are hearing that over and over again from young, educated russians, but getting out of russia is not an easy thing to do right now. if you go to one of moscow's international airports, you look up at the departure board you are seeing a sea of cancellations because north american and european airspace are closed to russian aircraft. of course, as the ruble collapses in value, prices are just skyrocketing here. we are seeing that on everything from car parts to toys to groceries in the supermarkets. people here are very, very worried about their savings, whether inflation is going to completely wipe them out. but the big question is the one that you asked, will the suffering of ordinary russians have any impact on the man who sits in the kremlin a few miles

from here? the answer is we just don't know. vladimir putin appears to be, as keir simmons was saying, more and more remote, more and more cut off. he is surrounded now by a very small circle of largely former members of the security services, his peers in the kgb. one of the things that was so discouraging from the kremlin readout of putin's call with emmanuel macron was he suggested whatever happens at the negotiating table with the ukrainians, he is absolutely determined to complete the goals of his so-called special military operation. that suggests that the two sides can go and they can sit at the table together at rest in belarus but there may not really be anything here to discuss if vladimir putin is absolutely determined to topple the ukrainian government and, as you said, take the entire country. willie. >> and his terms for ukraine are give me everything i want and surrender. not much of a negotiation. nbc's raf sanchez in moscow for

us. thanks so much. clint watts, i want to go back to you. you wrote a piece for "the washington post" where you talk about the nuclear rhetoric that the kremlin is putting out there. there's been some question about whether obviously vladimir putin would use that or is it just a threat to the west to say, don't get involved, don't step in or else i will use a nuclear weapon. what is the impact of even talking that way to the west and to the world? >> well, it is a tool that putin and all of his soviet forefathers always used, was the threat of nuclear war was enough to put the west on its heels. we would essentially stop trying to come to the negotiation table, just what you were talking about there, willie. negotiations are a joke. they use negotiations essentially to look like there's a formal process but behind the scenes they're pursuing military action all the same. separately, inside and outside of russia they're pushing out constant disinformation that they're the ones being provoked, that if they needed to use nuclear weapons they would be

justified because maybe the ukrainians are doing it or maybe the west is angling for war. there's a separate thing to focus on, which is if the ukrainians continue to hold out and we continue to resupply them and putin is bogged down inside ukraine, really on the evenly of losing his support at home at moscow, would he use a more tactical nuclear weapon in ukraine to bring an end to the fight, to bring zelenskyy to his knees, bring the west to the negotiating table to get what he wants, essentially creating capitulation? what i don't like about a lot of the discussions we're hearing on cyber deterrence is this is not the cold war. this is a mad man with nuke that is isolated and distanced. i think we need to think through the pathways we have left. one, connecting with the russian people. i think they're our best hope really to put pressure on putin and the regime to deescalate this. the second one is oligarchs. yes, we sanctioned tons of them but none will be happy about

going back home after losing a fortune. i'm sure they don't like after being part of the west in many ways seeing what is going on not just in terms of their reputation but in terms of their country, and the deaths of tens of thousands of soldiers. i think what we will see unfold in weeks is complicated. and it is based on if the west does something, putin will do something. i ask if the west does nothing what putin might do. >> clint, i wanted to follow up on that point exactly. i spoke yesterday to several senior administration officials in previous administrations, and i was struck by how many of them understood that the united states should not introduce troops to nato, should not have a no-fly zone because of what that would provoke, but i did hear quiet criticism, something that they said they would not say publicly but quiet criticism that the united states should not recoil every time vladimir

putin or his foreign minister wave the bloody flag of basically nuclear brinkmanship. when we are silent, when we back down, when we capitulate to that they suggest it makes it more likely that putin sees us as week and he's more likely to use nuclear weapons. their suggestion is to call his bluff and speak about the consequences of nuclear weapons and the consequences for the russian people and to not just, again, be seen to be capitulating. i'm curious what you think because, again, we are not dealing with a soviet politburo which in its own way is conservative with a small "c." we are dealing with a single man with more power than any russian leader since stalin, and he seems like stalin to be

unbalanced. >> that's exactly right, joe. i think there's three things we should always keep in mind. whenever putin wants to essentially keep the west on its heels, it comes down to nuclear threats, cyber threats or cyberattacks and disinformation. that's really how he bottles this up. in terms of the nuclear issue, you will see him constantly throw this out there to get a reaction. in the active measures playbook, we were here talking about it five, six years ago in context of the election. you use this fear-based messaging, clam tuss messaging to essentially be like a sword of damocles. if you do anything, i will use this. oh, by the way, i will use this to put fear in my own population. the other thing is cyber. we back away from all cyber options because we saw what might putin do if we were to go. but, joe, just look at this convoy here. this is not the vaunted russian military that i learned about. look at the spacing between these vehicles. they are literally telling all the world we're not worried

about nato because we know you won't use your air power. we know that you won't hit a major logistical hub like this. it also tells us that even despite all of this combat power, they haven't solved the big three classes of supply, food, fuel and ammunition. they really haven't been able to do this. they're not trained. they're not built like the u.s. military. they struggle in this. so i think just this convoy, this photo is indicative that he thinks he can use those three things, nuclear, cyber and disinformation to really put the west on its heels. so we are somewhat off balance and we won't go the extra step. i think it is time to call his bluff, but i also think it is time to create a parallel negotiation strategy to work both with the people inside russia and with the oligarchs, many of whom have very close relations to the west. very different from the cold war situation. >> really valuable insight. clint watts, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," retired admiral james stavridis joins the discussion. if there's anything more the u.s. can do to help ukraine without engaging in direct

confrontation with russia and risking potential nuclear war. plus, pentagon press secretary john kirby will be our guest this morning. and life in the first ukrainian city to come under russian occupation. nbc spoke with residents of kherson where russian soldiers are patrolling the seek. plus live to poland are thousands of ukrainians are seeking refuge and live from brussels where u.s. secretary of state tony blinken is meeting with foreign ministers. you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back. my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala.

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♪♪ 32 past the hour. a live look at the white house where a lot of decisions are being made moment by moment due to the situation ukraine. let's bring in the former nato

supreme allied commander, retired four star navy admiral james stavridis. he is chief international security and diplomacy analyst for nbc news and msnbc. co-director of the nuclear policy program at the carnegie endowment for international peace, james acton is with us this morning. and associate editor of "commentary" magazine noah rachman. >> admiral, let me begin with you. every day it seems the topic moves forward a bit. i guess the shock of this is now really settling in with policymakers that, yes, putin was unbalanced enough or ruthless enough to do this. the question now that i'm hearing from high-ranking former administration officials is how the united states should respond to the daily threats of nuclear

war. former high-ranking administration officials i'm talking to are saying that we've got to figure out some way to push back and let putin know, no, you're not going to be able to wave the bloody flag of nuclear war every step of the way. because as one said, well, what happens when he uses the threat for warsaw or latvia or estonia? are we going to keep backing down? i'm just curious. you're president of the united states, vladimir putin and his foreign minister are threatening nuclear war every day, what do you say in return? >> i think you start by internationalizing the response, joe, which is to say do what the administration has already done pretty well, which is to first and foremost shine a light. talk about how irresponsible the behavior is, how dangerous the behavior is, but get it out of this russia/washington channel.

internationalize it. by the way, other nations are nuclear power as well. nato is a nuclear-armed alliance. france and germany have highly capable nuclear forces. so i think you want to internationalize the response. my view is what we don't want to get into is every time putin says, "i'm a nuclear power" then we respond with, "hey, we're a nuclear power, too." it is just kind of this back-and-forth dialogue. i don't think that happens. i think what the west needs to do, shine a light on putin, on the danger and the irrationality of even making statements like this. quietly but firmly point out we have those cards as well, but then be the adult in the room and move forward sensibly with the kind of things that, again, i think the administration is doing pretty well right now. arm the ukrainians. prepare for a resistance.

levy massive sanctions. rally the west democratically. i would also -- and this is in the "what can you do when you raises the nuclear card," show him more pain militarily. for example, i like the idea of nato providing aircraft to the ukrainians. ukrainians can fly some of those russian jets, mig 29s, maybe a 10s. get them in the fight, continue with the targeting. continue on the conventional side. firmly and deliberately, don't back down on that conventional side but internationalize the conversation. the last point, there are some quiet things that can be done in cyber in this regard, both defensively and offensively. signaling that to the russians i think could be helpful in this scenario. bod only line, dangerous

rhetoric. we need to be the adults in the room. >> noah rothman, how do you compare the sabre rattling, the nuclear sabre rattling by putin, by lavrov, by people on russian state television, by russian diplomats? how does that compare to what we saw during the cold war with the soviets? >> it is very familiar, these kind of escalatory rhetoric is the stuff that makes you want to dust off the old playbook and see how the russians behaved. what is different about this conflict in many ways is that -- and for 40 years proxy conflict has been sort of the status quo of russian/american relations. we are no longer engaged in a plausibly deniable proxy campaign. we are overtly arming the armed forces engaged in the military conflict with russia. that is a different term of engagement. i think the biden administration has been smart by not responding to rhetoric with tactical maneuvers, for example, raising

the dev con level, which is something of a blink because we communicate that to moscow beforehand. but it is an easy way to indicate we are not escalating the situation, you are. however, if the call with macron is accurate and putin does go all the way, as they suggested, into western ukrainian we could see escalation involving nato units. we should be very concerned about the prospect of laboring western nations co-belij rant. we should be prepared not to respond with anything but a proportionate response. >> jams, let's talk about what happened at the nuclear plant last night. ukraine reports russia now controls the largest nuclear plant in europe, that one in ukraine. there was an alarming attack last night and people were worried there would be some kind

of a meltdown or, you know, huge impacts across the continent but it appears it was a fire at an adjacent building that has been extinguished. but ukraine has now lost control of that power plant. can you talk about the dangers of attacking a power plant and then the impact of russia now controlling it? >> well, good morning. it does appear that the immediate danger of that plant has passed. however, ukraine has four nuclear power plants containing 15 reactors. nuclear power plants are simply not designed to be in war zones. there were some pretty hairy moments last night. essentially the fuel inside a nuclear reactor is very radioactively hot. it has to be cooled continuously, and the kind of actions you can see in a war can disrupt the cooling of the reactor. reactors, their primary means of

cooling off is the nation's electricity grid. i understand they've been attacked by russian on the electricity grid. nato attacked the electricity grid in 1999 during the kosovo, that is a common thing. if firefighters are literally shot at on the way to the power plant, they may not be able to extinguish the fire. the worst case scenario here, which i emphasize is not what we saw last night, there was no radiation leak detected last night. but the worst case scenario would be a meltdown of nuclear fuel. >> admiral stavridis, will there ever be a reality where the ukrainians have enough weaponry from support from nato and the u.s. to overtake the russians and push them back or are we just delaying the inevitable? >> i think it is somewhere in the middle, mika, which is to say we can delay and you can

then end up in a very serious, very long-term insurgency. again, what you are seeing unfold is short-term gain on the part of the russians, and now after some missteps in the initial part now their campaign is moving forward. short-term gain, but there's going to be a lot of long-term pain that's going to result from exactly what you describe, from the resistance. i think the idea that we can sufficiently arm the ukrainians to conduct a break-out and move back and really roll putin out of the country is pretty minimal, although war has a way of surprising us. more likely putin will be quite successful moving across the country. however, remember this, and i will close on this point. the ukrainians are using strategic death. it is a big country. they're falling back, falling back, falling back.

it gets harder for putin as that occurs. his lines of communication lengthen, his logistics challenges increase. the shorter supply lines from across the border from nato countries are to the advantage of the ukrainians. so look for this campaign to stitchen as that occurs, the russians know that is coming. that's how they beat napoleon. that's how they beat hitler, by retreating into their own country. watch for president zelenskyy to take a page out of that playbook. >> i was just going to say, admiral, the russians are haunted by their own history. as you were talking about the ukrainian retreat i was thinking, you know, just like you said, napoleon, them tearing through territory in russia, hitler in '41 doing the same thing. just racing across, and both of

those troops getting all the way to moscow, covering hundreds and hundreds of miles easily, only then to get -- i mean vladimir putin has to know how this story ends. he has to know. he saw what happened to the soviets in ukraine -- i mean in afghanistan in '79. he saw what happened to the united states in afghanistan. he saw what happened to the united states in iraq. i mean it is one thing to race across a territory and, you know, grab a flag and wave it. it is quite another to hold it, especially with a country as large as ukraine. i just don't see how they ever make the ukraines submit to putin's authority. >> yeah, from everything i see thus far -- and, joe, i couple that with my time as supreme

allied commander when ukrainian troops were under my command in afghanistan and on other nato missions. these are tough, motivated, loyal to the idea of being ukrainians. i think they will continue to pose that long-term pain or vladimir putin. by the way you are correct to mention not only napoleon, but more recently the nazis. you know, these are old ghosts in europe, and it is not just a putin who remembers that era from studying in history books. this is within living memory. there are 80 year olds, 90 year olds who remember the campaigns of world war ii. i think this is at the heart of why europe is reacting in such a strongway and it ought to be positive for the united states to observe that. we ought to tap into that and, again, get it out of the channel of washington versus moscow and get it into moscow versus the

world, because, vladimir putin, you are walking us back to the late 1930s. that is not a place you want to be. it is not a place the world wants to be. we need to continue to move that message with our european colleagues. >> noah, that rallying of europe has been extraordinary, whether it is president macron running negotiations, being on the phone with president putin, whether it is germany stepping up its defense spending, sweden sending weapons, switzerland imposing sanctions on russia. europe has really rallied with the united states. the question is where does that rallying get the world? what more can be done to stand up here as putin continues to move in the ukraine and threaten the use of nuclear weapons. >> there are other steps you can take, but, as you said. >> the reaction from europe has been so profound, so shocking to people who have been advocating for a more robust engagement from europe for generations have

seen germany abandon peace, as you said, switzerland and sweden abandon neutrality. that's a sort of thing changing the calculation in moscow and it is raising the costs of this action in a way that's beneficial to the west. what is the strategy behind our sanctions regime cutting off commercial area? it is to raise the cost of the intervention beyond the point which they're outweighed by the benefits of deescalation. that should be our objective. to the extent we are talking about -- i'm very torn on this, but talking for example increasing evidence from our united nations ambassador and outfits like amnesty international that russia is using banned weapons, and those are being investigated by the world criminal court. if you communicate with moscow there's two way out, in a box or in a cage. our objective needs to be to force vladimir putin in some way, as much as we can, to accept a meaningful peace that

doesn't leave ukraine a broken state, in a position of semi frozen conflict in perpetuity and doing that the economic sanctions aren't going to succeed we need to raise the cost a little more. i'm worried about the extent to which we are saying to vladimir putin there's no way out of this for you except forward. >> that said, noah, i will ask you, i'm curious, should joe biden regardless of what we perceive as they crimes against humanity, should joe biden continue talking to vladimir putin? should he continue talking about a way out of this? because it only -- as the macron conversation made clear yesterday, it is only getting worse. >> yeah. i think we have established -- we have established a deconfliction channel directly with moscow, which is beneficial, and macron apparently has a personal line with vladimir putin.

vladimir putin initiated the call. he is engaged with the west to the extent he wants to be engaged with the west. i don't understand his thought process. i don't see how they see a means of holding this country, installing a puppet regime, an idea of bringing a guy that was ousted not once but twice by the people of ukraine. the ukrainians continue to fight for their own independent in a way i don't think anybody in the west and certainly not in moscow really fully appreciates. i don't see a means to exit until vladimir putin takes it. >> let me ask you the same thing, admiral. should joe biden be talking to vladimir putin right now? >> yeah, i think he should. you know, it is always painful and there's a temptation to just click off the phones and throw the ambassadors out and through

them out of the united nations. i don't think we're at that point, nor should we be. what we can do however in other sectors of society, sports, exchanges of museum directors, economics obviously, that's where we ought to be turning off the taps. ultimately we want to keep the diplomatic and military lines of communication open, because what we really ought to worry about here is a miscalculation. some young russian pilot launches a missile that flies over the polish border inadvertently but hits a command post. some young sailor on an american destroyer launches a missile against an incoming russian aircraft because the captain thinks it is a threat, which it may very well be. those kind of miscalculations happen. they start wars. if one of them happens, god

forbid, we need those communication lines. so, yes, i think he should continue to talk to vladimir putin at this moment. >> okay. noah rothman and admiral james stavridis, thank you both. james acton, are you concerned -- there's a lot of concern last night as the power plant was having fires around it and under attack in ukraine. there are four. how concerned are you that this will be used as a way to use nukes indirectly and there will be more attacks on power plants? >> well, we don't know why russia attacked the plant. i am skeptical that it was a deliberate attempt to create a nuclear meltdown. you know, i think russia is trying to conquer ukraine. you know, as we've heard from the other panelists this morning, i don't think russia has a viable plan for holding or occupying ukraine. i don't think it deliberately

wants to start a nuclear meltdown. but as i said earlier, nuclear plants are not designed to be in war zones. and inadvertently or accidentally attacks against adjacent facilities, against a nation's power grid can deprive a nuclear powerplant of the electricity supplies and the other supplies it needs to function safely. it could interfere with workers coming into and out of plants. we have had occasions where u.s. special operators, for example, in syria in 2017 called in an airstrike on a dam on a no-strike list. the dam almost failed, drowning tens of thousands of people. would could imagine a similar situation in which russian operators on the ground without authorization or against authorization ordered attacks on nuclear power plants. there are a lot of dangers here. there are a lot of ways that nuclear power plants could --

unauthorized, accidentally, inadvertently -- be subject to attack and there are serious dangers that could result from that. >> james acton, thank you very much. james is co-director of the nuclear policy program at the carnegie endowment for international peace. thank you very much. coming up, the ban on russian oil coming to the u.s. later, senator gary peters joins us. his cybersecurity bill is being called the most significant legislation against online threats in u.s. history. that and much more ahead on "morning joe." nicorette knows, quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like: try hypnosis... or... quit cold turkey. kidding me?! instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big.

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♪♪ 56 past the hour. a new round of white house sanctions is targeting high-profile russian oligarchs

with close ties to vladimir putin. the treasury department announced the latest penalties against some of russia's wealthiest citizens yesterday, their families, their businesses. that includes kremlin spokesperson peskov and a businessman known as putin's chef. meanwhile, a bipartisan group of lawmakers is pushing legislation that would ban imports of russian oil to the u.s. democratic senator joe manchin of west virginia who chairs the energy and nat raul resources committee and republican senator lisa murkowski of alaska, the committee's senior member, co-sponsored the legislation. both said they would take the blame for any house jump. house speaker nancy pelosi supports the idea. >> madam speaker, there's been a push by some democrats to ban the import of russian oil, and i believe senators manchin and murkowski are going to put forth a bill on that today.

where do you stand? >> i'm all for that. ban it. >> reporter: ban the oil from russia? >> ban it, yes. >> let's bring in bureau chief at "politico", the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. the biden administration has not banned it at this point. >> they have not banned it yet, and it is a concern about rising prices. we have heard the president a number of times saying we are going to pay more at the pump and doing this would send that much further. there already -- of course the administration is worried about rising costs across the board, particularly in the energy section, but we have heard the president say sanctions against russia's energy, if not a full ban, on the table as well. on sanctions i wanted to bring up new reporting. i talked to senior white house administration officials in the last day about this. these are extremely pleased and

surprised frankly how quickly europe got on board with the sanctions and they can see what a real impact it is making on the russian economy which has cratered. however, a counternarrative has emerged and some of the white house officials are worried that the sanctions are too effective, too soon and may be pushing putin into a corner that will cause him to lash out further. they think he will feel he has no choice but to escalate this war because things are going so badly for him economically at home. so they're pleased with the success but there is a fear growing now that it could be cutting both ways. >> that was always the risk. >> well, i mean i -- jonathan, it would seem to me that things are going so badly he can actually pick up the phone and figure out how to negotiate with the united states. is there any concern with -- from the white house that if we move too far on energy sanctions that europe may get skittish or

does it seem that the allies are shoulder to shoulder with the united states still? >> so far they're in lock step. you know, tony blink enis in brussels today meeting with a lot of his counterparts at nato and the european union. so far europe has stayed allied with the united states. much to the united states delight at how strong the alliances have been. of course, further down the road if prices start soaring, there could be the possibility of wavering especially if the conflict drags out. if it ends up being weeks or months. on diplomacy, you're right, vladimir putin if things are going bad at home he could pick up the phone. french president macron yesterday left with the impression he would only escalate did war.

the terms from the u.s. was like, we'll meet with you if you don't go up. putin went on so the summit was off the table. summits with u.s. presidents are usually seen as rewards, do something good first, earn the summit. white house officials suggest putin would have to agree to a cease-fire before there's a scenario where he could sit down with biden. >> well, the united states, it has been a one-way street over the past 15, 20 years. people have been saying, oh, we cornered vladimir putin time and time again. one administration, mika, after another administration has tried to give vladimir putin the benefit of the doubt. george w. bush talking about looking into his eyes, seeing into his soul and he is a good guy and we can do business with him. you have the obama administration talking about the reset. you have barack obama who caught hell for whispering in a hot mic saying, hey, after the election i can do more. you have donald trump who basically tried to dismantle nato for vladimir putin.

>> right. >> who held up defensive weapons to the ukrainians, trying to blackmail them, going to helsinki, basically doing everything but completely capitulating, talking about actually undermining nato every step of the way. the fears that if he got reelected again it would be undermined again. of course, this has caused major problems. at the same time we have time and time and time again underestimated vladimir putin. so if there's anybody in the white house right now concerned -- >> right. >> -- concerned that these sanctions may be too tough on a guy who is committing war crimes every day and every night in ukraine, you know what? wipe the dust off of your jacket, off of your shoulder. that's just absolutely -- that's absolutely ridiculous. listen, i have been saying from the very beginning that we have

to understand how putin -- how he looks at the world, that he feels like he's been hemmed in by nato for years. we have to help vladimir putin get out of the corner. we have to work with him to provide an off ramp. he doesn't want that. he wants to reconstitute the soviet union. so what do we do? do we not pick up the phone and call? no. we need to continue engaging actively and always be willing to work with him to get that off ramp. but this idea that sanctions may be too tough on vladimir putin, please. if you are thinking that, do your country and do did ukrainian people a favor and, you know what? turn in your badge and leave the white house today because you are doing a grave disservice to the people of ukraine, to our allies in nato, to americans who still believe that this country, the united states of america,

remains the indispensable nation when it comes to helping security freedoms across the globe. >> however, we've got to get off the russian -- the dependence on russian oil. >> oh. >> this is -- administration after administration that you have talked about, no matter what side of this they were on, trump being on the side of russia. >> right. >> our dependence on that oil really adds a dimension that's impossible actually. >> well, donald trump certainly -- and, willie, i must say it has been -- it has been entertaining in a sort of morbid way over the past several days to be talking to my friends who -- >> yeah. >> -- tell me that if only donald trump were in the white house this would have never happened. if only donald trump were in the white house -- >> it is why it is happening. >> -- oh, he would stand up to vladimir putin. let's look at -- we don't have to even look what happened over the past four years. let's look at what happened before the invasion. every time i see these horrific

videos of people being blown up and murdered by vladimir putin, i think about donald trump at the beginning of the invasion saying it was genius, that he's brilliant. our former secretary of state mike pompeo, i forget what he called him, but something along of the lines of, oh, he's a smooth operator. i have mike pompeo talking about the great respect, the great -- what is that, alex? hold on. what were you saying, alex? >> savvy. calling it savvy. >> savvy, yes. >> he also says it is china's time to invade taiwan, by the way. he said that yesterday. so he's a real constructive guy. >> so, again, for people making these claims, it is absolutely preposterous. i don't know if they believe that video somehow with this invasion, that somehow we lost the ability to go back and look at their words, but they're still saying outrageous things even now that vladimir putin is

in ukraine. >> yeah, i guess the only good news is that even in the modern republican party that is a fringe position. if you look at the votes they've been taking in the house. >> yes, amen. >> if you listen to united states senators who have taken donald trump's side on just about everything, they are not in line with the argument that vladimir putin is a genius or whatever mike pompeo is saying. john bolton on news max two days ago dismantling the idea. >> wow. >> president trump's national security adviser dismantling the idea we would be better off with donald trump right now as president and ticking through the litany of the reasons why, including, by the way, we can't erase history. the fact that donald trump was impeached the first time for trying to withhold defensive weapons like the ones being used right now in ukraine to get dirt on joe biden and his family. that's the record of donald trump. >> yeah. >> but it is, joe, as you said a fringe position right now. >> it is a fringe position, and i do want people that are

looking at donald trump and mike pompeo and some of the extremists, people that go to white supremacist events, they need to separate those people from mitch mcconnell, from ben sasse who came on this show, from others who they may disagree with, ted cruz all along was against the pipeline because he was -- he was against the pipeline because he thought it helped russia too much. people that many viewers may disagree with on other issues have had it right on russia and had it right on russia, and even when donald trump was humiliating himself in helsinki, even when donald trump was trying to dismantle nato, let's keep it in perspective that republicans in the senate were still voting for very tough sanctions on russia. so i think that's very important. willie, one final thing, too. a few days ago we had a

discussion about not depending on russian oil anymore. you seriously would have thought i called for the banning of legalized pot across america, the last time i really get crushed by all sides was when i said pot should not be -- should not be legalized. but when i said that we should not be dependent on russian oil, my god, you would have thought that i said something that was completely detached from reality. i did a little bit of research on it. we get 7%. the "wall street journal" -- by the way, the "wall street journal" from a couple of days ago had an extraordinary article on where we get our oil supplies from. i recommend everybody look that up. the journal did a great job. we get 7%, willie, from russia. you know what? we've got the ability to figure out one way or another to make up for that 7%.

at least people on the hill believe we do. the fact that you have joe manchin, lisa purchase cow sky and nancy pelosi saying, let's do it, whatever it takes. that's a good first step. even if we can't completely wean ourselves off russian oil, that 7%, let's get it down to 3.5%, let's get it down to 2%. that would be an extraordinary step forward. we need to be independent when it comes to energy anyway. this is a great way to start, isn't it? >> yes. >> yeah, and this has been the key criticism actually right now of republicans of joe biden is don't give up our energy independence. don't hand it to russia. now you have seen actually nancy pelosi as of yesterday come around to that position in the middle of this war initiated by russia. let's get everybody up to speed here as we cross the top of the hour on the overnight developments in ukraine. as russian forces laying siege now to major cities targeting civilian areas including residential buildings, russian military strikes hit an

apartment complex and two schools in the northern part of the country. local officials say at least 33 people were killed and 18 injured in the strikes while rescue work had to be temporarily suspended due to continued heavy shelling. this as russian troops encircled and blocked another key port in the north creating what humanitarians call a catastrophe. officials say the city is without heat, power and water due to the incessant shelling. russians captured their first major port city of kherson yesterday after intensifying. russian forces now control europe's largest nuclear plant after shelling the facility located in southern ukrainian. a building adjacent to a nuclear reactor caught fire. it since has been extinguished. the plant had been inaccessible because firefighters were being shot at. no essential equipment was damaged and the u.n. says no radioactive material was

released. the u.s. embassy in kyiv tweeted minutes ago, quote, it is a war crime to attack a nuclear power plant. joining us now pentagon press secretary, retired rear admiral john kirby. admirable kirby, thank you for being with us this morning. >> you bet. >> let's start with the attack on the nuclear power plant. do you have an assessment of the damage there? is there any leaking radioactive material? and what do you say to russia for going after your's largest nuclear power plant or any nuclear power plant? >> we are working closely to assess the damage. we would agree with the assessment there's no radioactive leakage right now and that the fire is out and the damage seems to have been fairly limited. to your other question, this speaks to the recklessness and the dangerous atmosphere inside ukraine caused by this unprovoked war of aggression, this unprovoked invasion by russia, and the fact that regardless of how it started that the russians have not been

very diss krim nat in the way they're going about this military campaign. they aren't known for accuracy and for precision, and certainly this is an example of just how dangerous this can get. not just for the people of ukraine but for the european continent. >> so, admiral kirby, there have been calls, increased calls in the last couple of days as we have watched russia continue the slow push across ukraine for the united states to do more. can you speak to what is happening right now and is there a possibility there could be stepped up military intervention from the united states as this seems to get work by the day? >> sure, let me tell you what we are doing now because it is a great question. we are expediting the shipment of additional security assistance to the ukrainian armed forces. in the last few days more and more ammunition, more and more weapons systems we helped flow into the country. we are also helping coordinate the flow of shipments from other countries as well.

this is a real international effort. we know that that material is getting into the right hands. secretary austin spoke to his ukrainian counterpart a couple of days ago as minister ref any reznikov made it clear they appreciate the material and it is getting into the hands of the armed fighters there. we know it is happening and we will look for ways to continue to accelerate the aid and assistance. we are making sure we can bolster the nato alliance. we are flowing to the flank both to the north and the south and we are going to make it clear to mr. putin that we will defend every inch of nato territory. the other thing we have done in the last couple of days, willie, is stand up a deconfliction channel. it is headquartered there in germany at the european command headquarters, but we now have a direct way of communicating with the russian ministry of defense on a daily basis in case there's a need to deconflict things like

airspace. >> so, admiral, thanks for being with us. i wanted to ask you. you say every inch of soil. so i had a former administration official tell me that with the united states seeming to be cowed by every nuclear threat that putin makes -- right now it is ukraine, but what are we going to do when putin says he is going into estonia next or he is going into latvia or he is going into lithuania? i have reporters on the ground saying those people are frightened. they think we might stand up for poland but we won't stand up for them. will you make a clear and unequivocal statement here today that based on the policy, the pentagon policy, the white house policy, the administration policy that an attack on estonia is an attack on nato and will be met with the full force of nato's military might?

>> we take our commitment to article five very seriously. an attack on one nato nation is an attack on all. that is why we have continued to flow additional resources and capabilities to nato's eastern flank to be able to do that if needed. hopefully it won't come to that, joe, but if a nato country is attacked the united states will an absolutely come to the defense of it. you know, joe, first and only time that article five was invoked was in our defense on 9/11 where nato came to our defense. we remember that here at the pentagon and we are absolutely committed to that going forward. again, hopefully it won't come to that and one of the reasons we stood up the deconfliction channel was to make sure we have a direct line to the ministry of defense so they know and they can see clearly and plainly how serious we take the commitment. >> admiral, a similar question i asked to admiral stavridis, but talk about the resources that are coming in, extra supplies, aid, money, weapons. will there ever be enough in the hands of ukrainians to make them

capable of stabilizing their country or are we just watching ukrainian's demise in slow motion? >> we're going to continue to flow as much security assistance to ukraine as we can as fast as we can. i would note, and i think admiral stavridis talked about this as well, the ukrainians are fighting back. they are defending their country and doing it quite effectively. the russian advance in the north continues to be stalled and frustrated by ukrainian resistance, which has been extraordinarily effective. now, look, we all have to be clear-eyed about this. the russians have the numbers advantage. they have more capability available to them. they built it up over the last several months, more than 150,000 troops, more than 120 battalion tactical groups. they have a lot of advantages right now. we will do whatever we can to continue the make sure that ukraine can defend itself. >> do we expect more troop movements just as a show of force following up on the last

question? >> sure. >> poland, lithuania, latvia, estonia, are we expecting to send more forces in there just as a show of support? >> well, president biden has already ordered more than 10,000 troops just from the united states to go to europe to bolster that eastern frank. we certainly wouldn't take off the table there could be additional deployments of u.s. troops to nato territory. the other thing is we have moved things around. we have taken troops out of germany and moved them to the balkans. there are additional strike fighter aircraft, some from the navy, some from the air force, f35s, we are very much in the air over the airspace. we will continue to talk to our allies about additional capabilities they might need. i want to stress that this is very much about nato. it is about the west. it is about this alliance. it is not just about the united states. >> hey, admiral.

good morning. it is jonathan lemire. you mentioned the stalled russian movements up north, and if you have an update on the convoy please provide it. but reish has made advances in the south in some of the port cities. how concerning is that? >> they have made more geographic progress in the south, certainly coming out of crimea. they seem to have sort of forked off coming out of crimea, one towards the northeast towards mariupol, and in the segment before me you talked about how the mayor of mariupol says they're being shelled. we think that the russians are coming at mariupol from two directions, from the southeast direction along the sea of azov and also from the north out of donetsk. they have also moved to the northwest out of crimea towards the town of kherson. we can't dispute any of the accounts coming out that the russians actually hold kherson. that seems to be the indication. now we think they will move

northwest out of kherson to try to encircle odesa. they have ships in the black sea. we haven't seen any maritime moves on odesa, but it certainly seems to be what they are considering doing. it would make sense that if they did that they would also try to come up on a ground perspective coming down from the north, and that appears to be what they're trying to do or why they went through kherson. they've had more progress in the south, but in the north they continue to be frustrated. they're not making as much progress on major population centers, certainly not kyiv, not kharkiv, not a town called chernihiv which they're trying to encircle and bombard. that con vie we have been talking about has been stalled and slowed and a reason for that has been the ukrainian resistance. they were able to hit some of the lead vehicles and get it to stop. >> pentagon press secretary, retired rear admiral john kirby. thank you. you do a great job explaining this difficult situation. we appreciate it. >> thank you. joining us live from lviv,

ukraine in the western part of the country, nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin. erin, we just talked about the ukrainian city of kherson, the first major city to fall to russian forces on wednesday after days of intense fighting that left at least 300 civilians dead. the city was left without power, little water, limb imed food according to the mayor. you spoke what resident who survived the attack. tell us about that conversation. >> reporter: hey, mika. well, yesterday i was in constant contact with the citizens of kherson, and they're absolutely terrified. yesterday was the first day actually that they felt comfortable enough to go out to get food, to get supplies, and that was only after their mayor struck a deal with the russian occupying forces, posting the

terms of the occupation on facebook which includes a strict curfew, no more than two people are allowed to walk together on the streets of kherson at any given time, and if a russian troop stops them they must comply and potentially be searched. people there are extraordinarily scared. i was speaking to a man who wants to be known as jimmy. that's not his real name, he asked we conceal his identity. he is concerned about the possibility of russian reprisal if he speaks out. he describes what he saw yesterday. take a listen. >> we all took a walk today and what we've seen were deserted streets, queues at atm machines, maybe 3% of all shops were open, and they wouldn't have enough food in them. >> reporter: when did you realize that the russians were in control? >> as i saw the picture of them

marching beside the bus station i understood that we're taken. >> reporter: was that scary? >> it was at first scary but then you think we're not in world war ii right now, and given that the town is not the same as it was then. >> reporter: what is the lesson that can be learned from what happened here? >> despite some bombing, which happened during the takeover, i could call it a silent takeover. we probably lost our town to the enemy, but majority thinks it is temporary and we have to hold on until the ukrainian army frees us. >> reporter: i was speaking to a man named dennis here in lviv. we were there as he was calling his mother in kherson, 65 years old. he is extremely concerned for her safety.

he says she has been supporting the ukrainian military. he is worried that she could be arrested and detained by russian soldiers for her activities. that phone call could be the last he hears from her in a while. i was speaking to him this morning, and he says he is now unable to reach his mother. the phone lines have been cut off. i have been able to speak to a resident this morning in kherson via wi-fi, confirming that the phone lines are down. i was also speaking to jimmy last night. he said that the russians appear to have taken over the local television station. he said that he noticed that the ukrainian tv programs are now dubbed in russian. no one there knows how long this is going to last or where this is going, mika. >> nbc's erin mclaughlin. thank you very much for your reporting. still ahead on "morning joe," more than a million refugees and the number is growing every day. ukrainians are fleeing cities that are quickly becoming war

zones. we are on the ground in ukraine and poland for an update on the humanitarian crisis. plus, there are concerns russian could ramp up its cyberattacks here in the u.s. we will talk to senator gary peters. he is the chairman of the homeland security committee. about his historic legislation to stop russian hackers. you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back. now, th. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs, or if you plan to, or recently received a vaccine. ♪ nothing is everything ♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. when traders tell us how to make thinkorswim® even better, we listen.

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as you've seen, the violence in ukraine is taking an immeasurable toll on its citizens who have witnessed their country being torn to shred by russian attacks many are calling war crimes. more than 1 million people have already fled the country, just seeking safety for themselves and their children and their loved ones with millions more expected to do the same. nbc news senior national correspondent tommy llamas has

the latest from lviv, ukraine. >> reporter: with russia's invasion entering the second week, the damage and war-torn cities across ukraine is mounting by the day. images from before and after. these areas were attacked by russian forces, a chilling reminder of what over a million refugees are running from. >> every hour was more dangerous than before. every day is worse than the previous. >> reporter: now russia and ukraine have agreed to create humanitarian corridors to safely evacuate citizens as an unaccountable amount of families are packing up as much of their lives as they can in suitcases and bags, many making their way to an overwhelmed border. this crowd seen trying to push past security gates to enter poland. still, the most critical artery in and out of the country has been the railways, the war not halting its nonstop service. >> you know, in the peaceful world we are the backbone of

economy. in the war time, we are the backbone of security. >> reporter: alexander kamish is the man running the rail system. in many ways it is what ukrainians have relied on for food, medicine and escape. >> translator: i am breaking apart. i have to take my son to a safer place. >> reporter: thousands have waited at the train station for days. those lucky enough to make it on board find themselves crushed in train cars for a journey becoming more dangerous. these new images show rail bridges blown up, tracks crippled, even a missile near a rail line. >> reporter: can you promise to keep the trains running? >> we will run the trains until the last person we can evacuate from center, west and south of ukraine. >> reporter: but as the mass exodus is likely the impinge, the u.n. now says more than 10 million ukrainians may end up

flying their homes. amid so much uncertainty, an emotional symbol of hope. friends from the same ukrainian village finally reunited in germany after abandoning their home, torn apart by war. >> all right. let's bring in the host and executive producer of "the circus" on show time, msnbc national affairs analyst john heilemann. he is in poland this morning and recently spoke with my brother, the u.s. ambassador to poland. john. >> hey, mika. i will say just on this refugee thing, you know, before we get to your brother, you know, we were down yesterday in the far southeast corner of poland. it is the biggest portal for refugees coming in, not far from where thomas llamas was talking about the train situation. it takes 30 miles, 50 miles or so between lviv and the border. it is now taking people like 60 hours to make that journey. once they get on the train because the rail systems are so disrupted, and on the numbers, i

mean just for perspective the last big refugee crisis the world faced was the syrian refugee crisis. it took three months for there to be a million refugees in 2013. it was said that it could be 5 million here. we did a million in a week and that's why the number is moving to 10 million. you think what it will mean. half of those will probably end up in poland. 5 million coming into poland? warsaw is a city of 1.5 million. 2 million, 3 million have to be absorbed into the city of warsaw. your brother introduced me to the mayor of warsaw, and we can talk about that. he is an incredible guy. i want to talk about mark. after the state of the union, not only is mark a seasoned diplomat but someone who worked on the desk under bill clinton, as you know. i asked look at what putin is doing on the basis, having

studied him closely for more than a quarter of a century and all of the things your father knew about putin and what you have learned, what do you think his long game is? this is what he said. >> as you think about the decision to invade for vladimir putin, what was it about and how do you think it ends? >> this is a man from the kgb who has an embrace of czarist russia narrative that he wants for his own. what does that mean tactically? that means kyiv and odesa, the two principle capitals of czarist russia of the past that he wants to be remembered as resurrecting. but he has to ask himself, if he holds those capitals and everything else is totally falling apart around him, did that have the kind of benefit in terms of his legacy that he wanted? because that's what he is going to get. >> you know, joe and mika, i

think the think about -- think about my conversation with mark, it was fantastic, as you can imagine. mika, i know you have sung his praises since i first met you and we spent a bunch of time together. the thing about the answer i loved, and, joe, you might have thoughts about this, is the precision of the answer. a lot of people say vladimir putin is trying to rebuild the old soviet union. but the way in which he went to what are the key elements of czarist russia? odesa and kyiv. that's what he is really all about here. i don't know whether it will turn out to be true, but the concreteness and the precision of the answer and how it fits into mark's perception of putin's war, view of ideology and historical messiah, i thought it was key. >> we were talking about the russians and how tied they are to history. mark's answer perfectly, you know, perfectly describes that. i recently met a russian

diplomat who introduced himself to me. i asked where he was from, he named the city, and then he identified the czarist leader that was from his hometown like 200 years ago. we've all heard stories, read stories about during the siege of leningrad every russian soldier had a copy of "war and peace" in their pocket. i mean this is a nation consumed with their own extraordinary history, and it seems that vladimir putin is looking backwards as the rest of the country is looking forward to the west. i wanted to ask you about what you are seeing on the ground in poland, because obviously the united states has had some difficult times over the past five years with poland, with hungary. obviously those differences have been wiped away for the most part by this, and there's

something extraordinary about the pols opening their borders up and being as welcoming as they have been. i just hear one story after another. i saw -- i saw -- i have seen out of berlin metro yesterday that made me -- a train station that brought tears to my eyes. berliners holding up signs to ukrainians coming in, saying -- two people and had stick figures up and they were there to welcome strangers, to bring them into their homes, to take them in. that's extraordinary. but the stories on the ground from poland, tell us -- tell us what you saw on the ground about how much poland has opened their country up to these ukrainian refugees. >> well, i mean, yeah, joe, first of all i said before the numbers are just stunning. i mean of the first million, about half of the first million have come to poland.

i mean half into one country. and the pols have been essentially -- and i mentioned the mayor of warsaw, raphael trowsky who mark introduced me to when i was at the east train station with those guys on wednesday night. the mayor said that on the first day that the war had started that the mayor of warsaw, biggest city in poland, capital, he said essentially they decreed a policy to take to the ukrainian refugees, we are open to you here in warsaw, come here if you need to flee, come here, the welcome mat is out to them. i said to him, it is an incredibly general rust thing to do, and the pols have been wide open to the refugees with no end in sight. i said, did you expect a week ago you would be looking at half a million refugees in poland? the mayor said, i didn't expect that, but here is why it is the right thing to do and why the solidarity with the ukrainians

is so strong. not just in poland but in the baltic states, in the other states on the border with ukraine. he said, we are obviously celebrating the ukrainians for the heroism, the bravery, the grit, the determination they're showing in this fight with vladimir putin, but we're not just into the david versus goliath story here. we see them as fighting our fight. that this is our fight, too. we know we could be next. so they're fighting our fight, but they're fighting it earlier than we are, but this fight might come to us. so we are invested in their success, and so we -- by being invested in their success we will support them materially and support their people. there's a rational calculation of self-interest that goes beyond generosity and idealism, although there's plenty of that, too. >> a real visceral connection and a shared experience for the pols and the ukrainians. john heilemann live from poland. thank you very much. we want to show you a piece of video now out of russia.

an elderly activist who is said to have survived the infamous wartime siege of leningrad appears to have been detained in russia on wednesday while she was protesting against the war in ukraine. "the guardian" reporting 77-year-old artist and activist yeleno osipova was, quote, marched away by a group of police as she protested the war in st. petersburg. nbc news has not independently verified this video or the identity of the elderly woman, but you have to wonder why russian officials would be afraid of her protesting and would have to drag her away. coming up, could russia use cryptocurrency as a way to avoid sanctions? we'll get into that. plus, the concern over russian cyberattacks. we'll talk to the chairman of the senate homeland security committee, gary peters. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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it is 7:43 on a friday morning at the white house. and here on the east coast the impact of russia's war in ukraine on the global economy is spurring an increase in calls for cryptocurrency to be regulated. federal reserve chairman jerome powell testified in front of the house financial services committee on wednesday on the state of the economy and monetary policy. when asked whether russia could use crypto to bypass sanctions powell said this. the war undercored the need for congressional action on digital finance including cryptocurrency. we have the burgeoning industry with many parts to it and there isn't in place the kind of regulatory framework that needs to be there. powell also pointed to the possibility terrorists and other malicious actors could use cryptocurrency in their activities as another reason it needs regulation.

meanwhile, as the russian invasion of ukraine intensifies we have yet to see russia unleash its full cyber warfare capability, in part due to the readiness of u.s. cyber defenses that include partnerships with big technology companies. nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell explains. >> reporter: before russia mounted its ground offensive in ukraine the leading edge of its assault was detected thousands of miles away. alarm bells went off at microsoft's threat intelligence center in washington over a new piece of malware aimed at ukraine as government and financial institutions. microsoft jumped into the digital fray, picking apart the malware, alerting ukraine's cyber defenders and the top sign he official at the white house. >> when microsoft notified us they built signatures to identify the malware, we encouraged sharing it broadly across allies and partners. >> reporter: u.s. officials warn vladimir putin still has the

ability to cut off critical communications and cripple vital infrastructure in ukraine, but so far russia's cyber offensive has been limited to denial of services attacks on ukrainian's defense ministry and banks. are you surprised we haven't seen a more massive cyberattack against ukraine or other nato nations or us? >> i think we have to be on guard against that possibility, we are. >> reporter: the u.s. is working with ukraine's cyber defenses to be ready in case the worst is still to come. >> russia has one of the most sophisticated cyber programs in the world, and it is far easier to attack than to defend. an attacker has to be successful once. a defender has to be successful every time. >> that's andrea mitchell reporting for us. joining us now chairman of the homeland security committee and member of the armed services committee, democratic senator gary peters of michigan. he also is a former lieutenant commander in the united states navy reserve. senator, thanks so much for being with us. let's start right there with what is happening and what has not yet happened in terms of

cyber warfare. obviously so much attention on what we can see in front of us with the attack by russia on ukraine. what is happening behind the scenes and do you expect russia to step up its cyberattacks? >> well, it is hard to know what they will do. i think as was mentioned it is surprising we haven't seen more cyberattacks because that tended to be part of their operational model and you would do that in any warfare. cyber tends to be the first strike an enemy will use. we haven't seen it to the extent that we would expect but i think we should not in any way let our guard down. they are very sophisticated. we are focused on it. i had a discussion even last night with the secretary of homeland security, secretary mayorkas, that they're working on all levels to make sure our cyber protection is as strong and resilient as possible. >> let's bring it down to the ground level, senator. what would happen? what is an example of the kind of cyberattack that could have an impact that could tip the balance in a war like this?

and if russia did carry out something like that, what could ukraine, perhaps partnered with the united states, do in response? >> well, certainly the critical infrastructure is always the achilles heel of any society. so you could see massive attacks against communication systems, fuel systems. we saw what a ransomware attack did in the united states earlier when we had a major pipeline actually shut down for a period of time to deal with a ransomware attack. so you can really cripple an economy pretty quickly with cyber. the danger, if the russians were to do that in ukraine, if you were injecting malware into the systems there isn't necessarily a good way to contain that. that malware could go to other systems around the world. other countries could be impacted by the malware that isn't going to be contained within the borders of ukraine. that's what makes this so dangerous, we could see the

impact spread quickly. it is a powerful weapon and oftentimes not easy to control if you're not careful, and i wouldn't bet the russians being that careful. in fact, they focus on the united states. >> what are the capabilities of a counterattack? we are talking about cyber warfare here. let's say russia shuts down the electrical grid, it does some of the infrastructure attacks you are talking about. the united states as you are pointing out and as andrea has pointed out in the peace has significant capabilities to strike back. what might it do in response? >> i don't want to speculate on that because you have to obviously take a look at what the attack is and figure out a countermeasure to let them know, let the russians know they can't get away with that. but clearly we have significant capabilities but clear we don't want to talk about the specifics of those capabilities in this type of setting. >> senator peters, good morning. it is jonathan lemire. first, two notes. first you have been surprised

russia hasn't done more. is there a sense it could be waiting in reserve, cyber hacks perhaps? and then tell us about the cyber bill and why it could be bill. why it's important in a time like this. >> perhaps we can speculate why it wasn't as robust as you anticipate. perhaps they thought they can work in a kinetic fashion and move swiftly through ukraine. clearly, that hasn't happened, they have been bogged down. we salute the ukrainian people for their incredible courage and defense. that's probably a surprise to the russians. so that may have messed up some of their plans. but certainly, they have that in reserve. we should be prepared for it. that's why the legislation that i sponsored and we passed through the senate, to deal with incident reporting is so critical. this is legislation that will require critical infrastructure in this country to the report the. our cyber security

infrastructure and security agency within the department of homeland security when they actually have a cyber attack. we believe we are not getting that information. do we have to know when attacks are occurring in our country, so we can prepare and importantly, warn others, this is the type of attack we are under going, like any battlefield, the first thing you need to know is situational awareness, where the enemy is, what weapons do they have? where you are? we need this same kind of information in the cyber domain. that's why this incident reporting legislation is absolutely quick am. why our national security folks thought this is a central cyber security legislation, why we are so happy it's passed unanimously out of the senate this past week. we are hoping to move it quickly through the house so we can continue to bolster our cyber defenses. >> yeah, bipartisan bill, which we should point out co-sponsored with rob portman, senior of ohio that passed through, it moves to the house.

senator gary peters of michigan, thank you for your time this morning. we appreciate it. >> great to be with you. thank you. still ahead on "morning joe", secretary blinken is meeting to reaffirm america's support for ukraine. we will go live to nato headquarters for the latest there. "morning joe" is coming right back. there. "morning joe" is coming right back ♪♪♪ my name is austin james. as a musician living with diabetes, fingersticks can be a real challenge. that's why i use the freestyle libre 2 system. with a painless, one-second scan i know my glucose numbers without fingersticks. now i'm managing my diabetes better and i've lowered my a1c from 8.2 to 6.7. take the mystery out of managing your diabetes and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free at freestylelibre.us welcome to allstate. now you know. ♪ "slow ride" by foghat ♪ ♪ ♪ here, we know you have a few reasons to slow down.

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ukraine border. like an saysia, miss jay has taken nearly 100 hours. >> i can open with the model, now it feels like we are homeless, exactly, we are home homeless in poland. we have no shops, no money, no anything now. >> reporter: in scenes reminiscent to years ago, berlin central is paved with donations. clothes, toys, hot drinks. a million or so refugees have already crossed from ukraine into the european union in eastern poland, slovakia and hungary and northern romania. in germany, it started as a trickle of a few hundred a day. it's now going into a steady flow of more than 1,000 people.

>> we have to run into the basement once or twice a day, due to airstrikes. nobody knows when it happens. they have to have everything ready. documents, food, and that's our life. >> reporter: the deutsche bank train company has made travel free for refugees coming from poland and around the country. the small gesture, programs, one that offers significant relief. >> all right. still ahead, we'll go live to poland's border with ukraine for a look at the exploding refugee crisis there. plus, congressman seth moulton, a marine veteran joins us. "morning joe" is back in a moment in continuing coverage. coverage. >> i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. with skyrizi 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you

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. it is the top of the hour. here are the overnight

developments in ukraine as russian forces lay siege to major cities targeting civilian areas, including residential buildings. that exexplosion was from russian military strikes hitting an apartment complex and two schools in the northern part of the country in chernihiv. 13 people were killed and 18 injured in the strike while rescue work had to be temporarily suspended due to the heavy shelling. this as russian troops encircled and blocked another key port city in the north, creating what local authorities say is a humanitarian catastrophe. officials say the city is without heat, water and power due to the constant shelling. russians also captured their first major port city of kherson yesterday after intense fighting. russian forces now control europe's largest nuclear plant

after shelling a facility located in southern ukraine, a buildinged a janet to a nuclear reactor caught fire. it has since been extinguished. the plant has been inaccessible because firefighters were being shot at. no essential equipment was damaged and the u.n. says no radioactive material was released. the u.s. embassy in kiev treated just moments ago, quote, it is a war crime to attack a nuclear power plant. willie. >> mika, just moments ago, the ukrainian government called that attack quote nuclear terror. joining us now from poland, near the border, allison bore ber stationed there looking at what is a refugee crisis. good morning. what are you seeing today? >> reporter: hey, willie, yeah, it is a refugee crisis that seems to be growing by the day. most of the people, many of the people who are impacted are

children like yamina. she is 6-years-old and a brilliant drawer. she was showing us some of her stuff before. do you want to show us again, your paintings? she's here with her mother, her brother mark, who is just two-years-old. they are some of the people that we have met here who are staying warm trying to get by. see, i told the truth. very good drawer. thank you. imagine with me for a second you are about her age 4 or you are 8-years-old and one day you were drawing, you were playing with your friends and the next you were hiding in bomb shelters, you and your mother, you were grabbing what little you could to then flee the country. you maybe said good-bye to your brother or your father works would go fight in a war on this area. this make-shift refugee site, if you will. we keep hearing version of those stories. you see up there, a reminder of

how many children are impacted by this. we met an 8-year-old this morning, angelina. her story is exactly like the one i just told you. she said good-bye to her brother who is now fighting in the war. she and her mother fled here. listen to what she told us, she is from kiev and again 8-years-old. what's it like for you when you were at home? >> it was really scary. then when my mom made me, urges me, it was over. >> reporter: do you want to go back home? >> of course. of course, i want to. because my sisters and brothers are there and the daddy and the kid and i love them all. >> reporter: what did you say to your brother when you left?

>> i told my brother, my brother i really love you. i love you very, very much. >> reporter: you are very brave. >> yes, i am. >> reporter: what do you want other kids who are watching this to know in. >> i want them not to be afraid and not to worry. i want them to listen to their parents. because their parents love them more than anyone else. >> reporter: we have been to five different border crossings along the poland-ukrainian border so far, this is by far the most organized kind of post-reception area we've seen, the at the present times, they are warm, there is heaters, food, toys, lots of resources. we watched as electricians

arrived and installed these outlets on every single power poll in this area. speaking with the people running this site. this is put on organized by the local government. they said their biggest challenge right now is transportation. initially, the people we were meeting crossing the border, they were coming to poland because they had family or friends here. now the people coming, they're fleeing. where they go next, they don't know, so what they are trying to do is arrange them to transportation like warsaw, a good four hours away, so they can stay in some sort of bed or hotel. right now, willie, that is incredibly challenging. because the people doing that transportation so far, it's just a collection of polish people who have volunteered their own cars and their own time to help and as these numbers grow, that's not sustainable. willie. >> just incredible stories. how about 8 and 6-year-old little girls fleeing their homes, being brave enough to tell the world's children to be brave, themselves, nbc news'

allison barber inside poland along the border of ukraine, incredible stories. thank you so much. secretary of state tony blinken is meeting with that to allies today in brussels, let's bring in correspondent josh letterman live from nato headquarters there in brussels. josh, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, willie. the foreign ministers gathered here in brussels are expected to hear later in the day from ukraine's foreign minister, really the over arching theme today is the theme for nato allies to contain this crisis to ukraine. we heard from nato secretary general stoltenberg just a little bit ago, predicting in the days to come, things are going to get worse. more death, he says, more instruction, more suffering. but still, he says that nato remains opened to diplomacy with russia. and secretary of state tony blinken is sending this signal to vladimir putin. watch. >> ours is a defensible alliance. we seek no conflict. but if conflict comes to us, we

are ready for it. we will defend every inch of nato territory. >> reporter: here in brussels, there is a lot of talk about whether nato should be imposing a no-fly zone over the skies in ukraine. in fact, as we were coming into the nato headquarters this morning, you could hear chances from outside the headquarters of protesters gathered outside the gate, demanding the skies over ukraine be protected. stoltenberg said in the meeting with foreign minsters today, they agreed nato should not put boots on the ground and also should not be flying in the airspace above ukraine. he says that creates the risk that nato gets pulled into a war with russia. he says that to has a responsibility to the world to make sure that doesn't happen, willie. >> josh letterman from nato headquarters where the story is unfolding right now with the secretary general speaking at this moment. josh, thanks so much. mika. wow, joining us marine

veteran and member of the armed house committee congressman seth molten of massachusetts. national security expert and author of the peacefield newsletter at the atlantic, tom nichols and washington correspondent anna marie hoarden. >> tom, is the united states doing enough? do we need to do more? what's our next step? >> well, we're doing a lot. i think we could have acted sooner to get weapons to the ukrainians. second, we support an insurgency after a russian invasion. we thought it would be fighting back after the fact. instead the ukrainians have mounted such a heroic resistance they are not only stopping the russian army, they are starting to degrade it so we're accelerating weapons. the administration is getting more things to the ukrainians, but it is still a dire

situation. make no mistake. this is at best a 50-50 call as to how it ends up. >> so what's your reaction to the saber rattling coming from, i almost said the soviets, from the russians constantly talking about the possibility of nuclear conflict. how should we respond to that continued reckless insane rhetoric? >> it's completely reckless, it's insane. but we have to think strategically about the possible implications of the russian army literally being stopped where we expected them to take over the country. and what does that mean? what does putting putin in that corner 19 he might do? we have to be prepared for those strategic possibilities. that's why you see the administration talking about a diplomatic off-ramp. but the other side of this is that if we don't stop putin in ukraine, he absolutely will go somewhere next. that's a lesson you have to take from everything he's done over the last decade. so it is critical that we remain strong, that we remain united

and we're not could by putin's threats. >> tom nichols, something that you have talked about, it was interesting to me. i told this story a few times on this show that in '82/'83, dr. shotner in alabama was asked of the soviets, how much they feared the persian cruise missile deployed to western europe. to tell you the truth, they fear a xerox machine much more. at that same time you were in the soviet union. you said it was hermetically sealed off from the west of the world. no information, putin seems to think he can do that again in 2022. is that possible? >> no but he's making a great run at it. he has now shut down the well-regarded and heard radio station and it's just a few minutes ago, they said they will

have to take their site down and their social media accounts. he's closed down rain tv, that was an independent source of news. the problem is he can't go and take a phone out of every happened of every person in russia. a lot of those people have friends and relatives and family in ukraine. they also have the ability to get out through the internet and find out what's happeningp putin's always been weird about this i said years ago that putin never grasped that you know 1990 happened either politically or technologically. but he is trying now to clamp down on any alternative sources is of information and the russian parliament just passed a law saying that false information about the army, which of course will be anything the regime wants to say it is, can get you 15 years in prison. so he's making a try at sealing off the country.

but that i think that's actually going to fame. it's going to make him even angrier. because it's just not possible. >> yeah, that legislation was absolutely extraordinary, includes retweeting information. you can go to prison for retweeting something that counters the official government narrative about this invasion. anna marie, we want to ask you about the nuclear power plant inside ukraine, the largest in europe. it provides 25% of ukraine's energy, the ukrainian government now says it has fallen under russian control. i know you spoke to the head of the iaea, first of all of the risks of the nuclear radioactivity escaping material from that plant. also the impact of that facility controlled by russia. what did he tell you? >> well, it's incredibly dangerous situation. rafael grossi joined me on bloomberg tv yesterday mere hours before this happened about the standoff that was happening

outside the nuclear facility. as you mentioned the biggest in europe. which is why it is so dangerous right now. he he was describing to me almost a face-to-face confrontation between the russian military and even the local population and ukrainian military. but even though you have this very u.n. precedented situation in terms of a country being invaded that has nuclear that -- facilities. that is unprecedented. but also the fact that individuals in this facility have been working 24 hours around the clock not getting any breaks. so really there was always this concern of a potential in the fog of war and error. he has been in constant contact two his ukrainian counterparts. right now it raises a risk the russians have control of this. and it is incredibly, incredibly frightening. >> we had the press secretary admiral kirby on a few minutes ago confirm they have not seen a

leak of radioactive material at this point. it is good news, but it is in russian control. i want to ask you about the release of strategic oil stock piles as crude has gone over $100 a barrel in this invasion. what are the dynamics on energy? we know europe is so dependent on russian oil. is that changing now? will it change? >> well, for europe, it's an incredibly difficult situation. how they heat their homes comes from russian energy. we should note a third of that goes through pipelines through ukraine. ukraine's government makes billions of dollars in these transit fees. almost like an easy pass to allow that gas to go through. when it comes to the united states, though, this will be one of the biggest debates within the democratic party. have you speaker pelosi coming out saying ban it, ban russian gals him when you look at imports to the united states, russia accounts for about 8% when you consider other

petroleum products as well. if you look at the rankings, it's third after canada, mexico and before saudi arabia. but the administration does not want to put direct sanctions on oil and gas because as you just mentioned, you are seeing crude prices skyrocket and that will reverberate and trickle down to the every day gasoline consumer in the market. when you fill your punks all prices, wheat, grocery pills, et cetera. russia is a super store when it comes to these soft and hard commodities. right now the administration trying to help soften that blow to the every day consumer, but at the same time, we should note, companies are just shutting russian gas themselves. they have almost become self sanctioning. they don't want to touch these toxic assets. >> congressman moulton, the discussion happen over a number of days over the flo -- no fly

zone, a spill zone into nato territory will be as bad, do you agree? i know we have talked about, we don't know exactly where putin will go next. but what are the possibilities that this bill is over and where are the possibilities? >> if putin comes out of here with a win. he absolutely will go to nato next. he is within inches of nato territory. just to make it clear for everybody, that means that if he steps over that line, americans will die, americans will be in combat and this war will be far, far worse. so look, i think it's time that we need to get american public behind this work. i have people coming up to me all the time saying, what can i do to help? one thing americans are do to help is put up with a little higher gas prices. i think speaker pelosi is right here. we need to ban russian oil now. i was hoping this president would call for this during this

state of the union, say this is something we can do to stay strong with the nato alliance. the other thing that's about to happen is the russians are about to go into the heart of kiev. they're surrounding, prepared to surround the city now. that urban warfare is going to be absolutely brutal. not just for ukrainian civilians, but for the russian troops. they have cell phones too, we need to communicate directly with russians back home and the russian troops on the ground in ukraine about just how brutal this urban combat will be. i think the morale is declining. ive think we need to step up our operations and all this is a part of ultimately stopping putin from going further. >> tom, i wanted to ask you about that, the morale of russian troops. unlike us, they did not grow up in a cold war, where they were trained from the earliest age, to look at the west as an enemy.

these are people who wanted to be a part of the west. these are people who have listened to western artists, watched western movies, used western technology. talk about putin's problem with a group of fighters, many of whom didn't know they're even going into ukraine. people have relatives in ukraine there. and to talk of morale being low in the first days of this invasion. >> well, you know, joe, they didn't grow up with the cold war, but they have grown up with eternal war where they have just had this beaten into their heads that everyone is their enemy. the georgians, the ukrainian nazis, you know, which i am putting in scare quotes. you know, nato, everyone. but i think they were genuinely surprised to find themselves first fighting their brothers and sisters in ukraine and second not being greeted as

liberators. because these guys were all told that this was going to be, you know, a quick in and out, a so-called special operation. and i think what's really degrading their morale is the opposition of the local population and the fact that nobody seems to know what they're doing now. they're going on ten days in. they are bogged down. we have all been watching that 40-mile long column, you know, congressman moulton can tell you what happens for an eight mile column of people, gas and food just stops. you know, as a military problem and they are making phone calls and you know they are subject to the rumor mill and they are looking around and i think a lot of those, especially those young conscripts are saying, you know, i was supposed to be fighting nato. i was supposed to be fighting, you know, terrorists.

suddenly i am here in ukraine a place that i know and where i may well have friends. i may have relatives, a place i may have visited many times and suddenly i'm fighting. americans really need to appreciate how much ukrainians and russian mix and intermarry and travel. i think the last numbers i saw some years ago, the city of kiev is 20% russians. this is really a moral destroying excursion for them. it's going to get worse. the one thing that could rescue this operation is if putin could turn it into a war with nato. that's the one thing that can rally the nation. i think it would make more sense to all of these poor guys that have been sent to kill and

basically be terrorists in a foreign country. these younger kids. i don't mean the officers or ncos. that's a different level of responsibility. i think that's one of the reasons we have to be careful not giving putin the exactly kind of work he'd want here. now this other war has obviously failed outright. >> the atlantic's tom nichols, congressman vote moulton and walk correspondent for bloomberg tv anne marie hordern. still ahead on "morning joe", we are breaking down the tactics of russia's invasion with nbc news national security analyst clint watts at the big board. also ahead, there has been a lot of alarming talk out of russia about the use of nuclear weapons. we will get into the strategy behind those threats as we follow this breaking news. we'll be right back.

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. let's go to the maps on the big board and talk to clint watts. he's there for us. a former infantryman and distinguished fellow at the research institute and national security analyst for ms nbc and nbc. show us where the nuclear power plant is and the significance of its operation. >> we saw video that you might have seen on social media of a firefight in and around those reactors. what do the russians want to do? they want to take control of the entire energy sector. they can do seize warfare to take control of the power sources, separately, the more important point might be psychological, injecting fear into audiences while we are trying to get to the bottom of what happened here last night. is it safe?

i believe back at home russian disinformation is saying the ukrainians are possibly using it or causing a blast. with we saw that last week when chernobyl was taken back. the last thing from a military perspective. we see nuclear sites. they have massive railheads. if you are an invading army, you are bogged down logistically and want to move things quickly over time, taking railheads outside of cities is extremely important. another logistical component for them. they are not doing well on the roads right now. another thing i want to bring up, while we talked about the first week in two days, russians are now using that combat power to take hold. several things ha happened over the last 48 hours, first this unit in crimea, the peninsula they seized in 2014, it has created a land wedge to forces

in donbas. they are surrounding this town here of mariupol. this is total war siege warfare, indirect fire, these folks are in absolute disaster. separately kherson, the other break away mika was talking about. it's the mouth of the river as it enters into the black sea and there is a bridge here in kherson which allows the russian military to move to the western side of ukraine. if they can do that, they can possibly march all the way to the moldovan border sealing off this entire here, there will be no sea supply or logistics to get things in and they can use landing crafts to bring in more forces more quickly in the south. bringing it back to the bigger picture. we have been talking a lot about the convoy stuck there up in the north. but i think there are bigger this engs to think about.

they tried this initial move into kiev. failed attempt to take down the topple the government early. you are seeing them start to make gains in clue chernihiv. it's not significant unless you build up a loggerhead here. you want to take up the rear areas. you heard defense secretary kirby talking about taking these towns, you don't want to be fighting insurgents in your rear area. that brings us to the ends, they are now marching from the south in from the east, their ultimate goal is to encircle kiev and cut them off all from the ground from poland. >> clint watts, thank you. coming up, we get the latest from moscow as putin and his allies step up the provocative

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. more loose talk of nuclear weapons by the russians about 20 years ago ukraine gave its nukes to russia in a deal that was supposed to guarantee the country's security. ukrainian president zelenskyy mentioned that fact saying, quote, we don't have that weapon. we also have no security. the head of russia's foreign intelligence service claimed yesterday zelenskyy's statement meant ukraine reconsidered its disarmament stance. he denied he was working to create a nuclear weapon calling it another russian hallucination. russian leaders are speaking a lot about nuclear weapons. is this a concerted strategy?

>> it may very well be. mika, it's interesting. that message seems to be aimed very much at the west. we are very closely watching russian state television here as a kind of window into what the kremlin wants people here to know and they are not talking about it. when it comes to that nuclear plant last night, russian state media talking as if this fire spontaneously broken out at this nuclear plant as opposed to being started during an attack by russian forces. mika, i will tell you, we are seeing a kremlin more and more determined to stomp out any alternative to the official narrative of what's happening in ukraine. just this morning, the russian parliament has forced through a new law that means you can be imprisoned for 15 years for spreading what they call fake news about what's happening in ukraine. they are censoring a few media

outlets. it is not allowed to refer to the military action in ukraine as an invasion, a war, an attack. term of art from the kremlin is special military operation. they are shutting down media outlets who say anything different. mika. >> thank you very much. still ahead, the february jobs report is just crossing. we will have those breaking numbers next as investors keep developments on ukraine. morning joe will be right back.

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down from 4% to 3.8%. let's bring in cnbc's dom chu. this is well over expectations. the unemployment rate down below 4%. if you add it all up now 90%, 9-0 of the jobs lost in the pandemic have returned. >> not just that, to your strength of the report. you mentioned the unemployment rate as well. if you look at the revisions over the last two months, meaning december and january, they increased the number by 92,000 jobs on top of the previous estimates. so not only is the headline number much better-than-expected. the previous ones revised higher. i will take you through a lot of things important, especially those paying attention to the economy. a lot of attention paid to wages, average hourly earnings up 5.1% over the same time last year. that was actually yes, good, not as high or hot as some

economists were expecting. i would sigh this. the labor force participation rate. the people a part of the jobs force ticked to a post-pandemic high of 62.34%. in february, before the pandemic started, it was closer to 63.3, 63.4%. we are inching back to a normal workplace, a normal work force, when it comes to the overall sectors, everybody basically added jobs. it continues to be leisure and hospitalality. they gained 179,000 jobs. professional business services added 95,000. healthcare and construction were strong. i would put a point on it with this, folks, this is an unbelievably good jobs report. the real issue is i'm not sure how many people will pay attention to it. there is such intense focus on what's happening across the atlantic and ukraine and russia

and of course the federal reserve chairman j. powell told congress the expectation is the fed will raise rates by 25 basis points in a couple weeks. so maybe a lot of this has been told and foretold prior to this report even coming out, guys. >> dom this report actually comes for a month where we were still in larger cities still moving out of omicron. the fact that we've moved into a month where knock on wood it appears that omicron and a lot of the challenges, economic challenges of covid are in the rear view mirror at least for now. we can expect continued growth, which also does add continued inflationary pressures, because this looks like an economy that's hot now but if we keep going in this direction, it can really heat up. >> reporter: so, joe, i mean, that's an excellent point you are bringing up. it calls into question the their rettics around what's happening

with the current situation with the american economy. if ukraine was not invaded by russia, what would things look like, what would the narrative be right now? we would probably be squarely focused much more so on the inflationary pick. it was tough, very bad before oil prices and food prices surged because of the invasion. if you had these numbers to back it up, there was a case to be made that foils-makers in washington, the federal reserve could have looked to tap the brakes without fear any kind of a recession taking place. the issue now is with a war across the atlantic, with one that could slow things down, not just from a european perspective, from a global perspective as well, because of higher oil price and food prices, what does that do to the nar theive? that's what fed chair j. powell had a tight rope to walk here. they have to battle inflation. they cannot do something that will shock the world economy in a time when there is military

action taking place between russia and ukraine, guys. >> all right. thank you so much. mika. >> all right, the notorious hacking groups, anonymous, declared war on russia and is targeting russian websites. the grown-up that has also targeted u.s. sites in the past now says putin's regime is fair game. joining us now, nbc news correspondent tom costello, tom, what more can you tell us? >> you know, for years, the u.s. accused the russian government of cyber attacks, sometimes working alongside russian cyber criminals. now russia is under cross-hairs. before you celebrate. think you quickly this could snowball into an all out global cyber war. >> this is a message to vladimir putin from ananonymous. >> reporter: the group calls itself anonymous, now putting russia in the cross-hairs. >> members of anonymous declared cyber war against your aggressive regime.

>> reporter: they claim they've targeted 1,500 websites, the ministry of defense, space agency, russian oil companies, internet providers and tv channels. >> they're called to fight in the cyber space resulted in a lot of websites not being available. some websites going down, records, russian government, russian military records dumped out onto the internet. >> reporter: u.s. officials confirm they've seen evidence after russia launched a cyber and ground offensive against ukraine. the real risk to russia long term is the can selling of their access to internet infrastructure as private sector companies decide they're going to delest or no longer carry their traffic. >> reporter: cutting off russia from the world would deprive every day russians to access to outside news and information. cyber pros worry they may view them as western attacks and target u.s. sites.

the u.s. director. >> reporter: how at risk the average american or that small business owner? >> everybody is at risk. which is why at the end of the day, they need to protect their systems, networks and data. this can happen to anyone. there is no one that is immune from potentially getting hacked. >> reporter: the cybersecurity basics never click on suspicious e-mails or links, use complicated passwords, back up your computers and keep security software up to date. >> this basically ensures he can log in even when the password is changed. >> reporter: israeli firm cyber bit uses real world attacks to defend themselves. >> the question is they should ask themselves is not if they are going to be but when they are going to be. >> reporter: as for anonymous now targeting russia. russia has always been perceived as the cyber attacker. and now they're on the receiving

end. >> instead of always being on the offense. they also got to be on defense. that lowers their capabilities in some ways to do attacks. >> that's the concern here, the cyber battlefield seems to be expanding by the day. we've seen u.s. oil pipelines, hospitals, banks, attacked in recent years. experts say they could be targeted again, also electric grids, dams, water systems. everything is a potential target right now. by the way, the u.s. cyber security agency, if are you a small business or typical american family, they have great resources online how to protect yourself. meek what. >> nbc news' tom costello, thank you very much for that report. let's get right back to the ground now in ukraine. one of the country's most beloved artist, singer activist joins us now. we see you're driving, if you can, if you can describe this. >> i am not driving now, hi, certainly, i am trying to talk

to you because it's dangerous to drive. but thanks for having me here and, frankly speaking, the situation is very bad. because we never -- we couldn't expect our neighbor would impose such a brutal war against us. they're killing they're killing women, children, smashing the cities. it's awful. i cannot say anything but what we see the biggest crime since world war ii. i'm not exaggerating. i mean it. >> slava, what we've heard in the united states, maybe we didn't understand as much before, but we do now, is just how close ukrainians have been with russians, how so many russians live inside the country. you have stories of grandmothers going up and confronting russian soldiers, and the russian soldiers politely asking them to move out of the way. we didn't understand it until we got a better grasp of just how close your two countries have

been, the number of russians that live in ukraine. >> i can tell you the fundamental difference, though genetically you may find resemblance, but ukrainians in blood, they have freedom, and this is what differs us from russians, because they actually always, you know, tended to be autocratic, dictatorial state in every times in history. ukrainians are more like americans. so, we like freedom, we like elections, we like arguing, but this is what makes us strong. we are now fighting for freedom, dignity, and our land and our children's future. we are fighting and we will be fighting until the end. >> slava, we appreciate you pulling over to the side of the road. we know how dangerous it is and your journey. they want americans watching right now to know about what's

happening on the ground and what more you'd like to get from the world and the united states. >> the most important thing -- first of all, i want to say thank you to all american e people and to american, you know, politicians and government, bipartisan support of ukraine. it's very important. but now we need more. you've seen how close to a nuclear disaster we would be in ukraine morning, your evening. thank god nothing really bad happened, but we are very close to that. so we need to stop it now. that's why we need no-fly zone, no matter how it's controversial, because in my opinion, to impose -- some say imposing a no-fly zone over ukraine can bring the world closer to world war iii. i'm convinced the opposite of the truth, if you don't do that and putin wins, then he'll go further and there will be the disaster for the whole world and everybody will regret they

didn't stop it before. it looks like 1938 now, so we urge the whole world, noeflz, air missiles, strong sanctions. we need to stop him now. otherwise it will be too late. >> the u.s. said no-fly zone. if there is no military intervention from nato countries, from the united states, from the west, what is -- >> we need planes. >> -- going to happen in the weeks and months to come? >> we need planes. we need air defense system. at least you can give this. ukrainians will fight till the end. i'm sure that finally we're going to win because we are on our own land and it's just for us. you fought your independence war. this is independence war for ukraine, what we have now. >> you were talking about that

ukrainians, much like americans, love freedom and expect freedom for themselves. can you talk about the ukrainian character? so many americans have been moved by it. one friend told me, my god, they're look like they're texans. nobody wants to invade texas. by the way, that is when it comes to war, that's a compliment. don't mess with texas, don't mess with ukraine. >> i agree that ukraine is tough. we are very peaceful but tough. we never fought anybody's -- we never conquered any country. we've been conquered by others. but now it's our time. we will not allow to do it once again. so we will fight like crazy, everybody, men and women, territorial defense, army. you know, molotov cocktails. you see it in ukraine.

we know it's now or never and we will do it. one thing we want from a civilized world is be impressed by us but help us. if we are not fighting, then we could understand somebody's impartiality. but we really fight and we deserve it. >> slava vackarchuk, thank you so much. we hear you. we are praying for you. >> thank you very much. >> please stay safe. >> glory to you and god bless america. thank you. >> as we go to break, here is some of slava's song from back when russia annexed crimea in 2014. ♪♪

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