good evening everyone. i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. it is 11:00 a.m. here, 6:00 p.m. in the city of mariupol where earlier today an effort to evacuate russian forces allegedly violated a temporary cease-fire agreement with a barrage of shelling. the new york times reported that residents attempted to tie right flags, blankets and even sheets of the vehicles, to show they pose no threat. but it seems the russian forces took no notice, as the shelling proceeded. the move pushed the state department to call on u.s. citizens living or traveling in russia to get out immediately. tonight, president biden spoke with president zelenskyy on the phone, as we also learned that economic pressure on the kremlin increase with both of these and mastercard announcing that they are suspending all operations inside russia. we're going to break down all of these developments and much more over the next hour. but first, i want to welcome

msnbc correspondent cal perry who is on the ground in the fourth. cal, it's good to have you with us again. i understand that thousands of ukrainian refugees continue to pour in to live lviv in the past several days as they try to escape russian attacks in the east. how is this city firing? >> excuse me, sorry. i think it's bursting at the seams it's difficulty fighting finding housing. certainly for refugees, the polish border is still choked at the point where people are leaving their cars. they're having to walk a dozen or so miles. that's an incredibly difficult scene. you have these new alarm being sounded by the world food programme, seen that 5 million people in this country are in need other media assistance. so you can start to see how the effects of this war are starting to reach further and further into the population. the fighting you mentioned around the city of mariupol, there was hope there would be some kind of civilian, humanitarian corridor where goods could get in and folks could get out. just imagine being in the city where i am in lviv and still

having relatives in places like mariupol. or in places like the north where we know they're being bombarded. we know that is happening. we're seeing families being split up. we're seeing men head back to the front, will families try to make their way to the polish border. some are having some success. some are having to find housing here. it's a growing concern. and it's also cold out, we should mention, in these outdoor refugee camps. people are cool. it's been raining here. the ground is wet. it's a growing humanitarian concern on any number of friends, from food to shelter, to just the sheer number of folks. 1.2 million people have already left this country. and it doesn't account for the people that are already displaced. many folks who are still trapped in the cities. >> nbc's cal perry live for us in lviv. cal, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. let's turn now to an alarming development -- developing story as you. no two-time olympic gold medalist and wnba star britney greener has now been detained in russia. russian customs officials said that the phoenix mercury

sentence center was alleged -- those officials claim they they cartridges containing hashish oil who are found in her luggage at an airport near moscow. for now let's go to kimberly on this. kimberly, good to have you on this. as i understand it brittani has been the in russian custody for weeks but we just learned about this today. can you catch us up on how all of this unfolded? >> so, today was the day the russian federal customs actually resists released a video showing brittney griner going through the airport. and you see a dog notices her luggage and then they have her check her luggage. from this video, what we see is there going through her back and it looks like they're going through the cartridges. at another point later on that in the video, we see her signing documents. and we have no idea what these documents say. we have no idea if they're in english or russian. or if brittney griner speaker understand russians. that's a key, alarming point.

something beyond this, if you look at the original press service release, they mentioned that she's been charged with not a misdemeanor, marijuana possession charge. she's been charged in large-scale transportation of drug. she's facing a 5 to 10 year sentence if she's convicted. so, this is a very serious criminal case against brittney griner. when we think about this, we also have to remember that there are two other high-profile american cases in russia right now. paul we learned, who's been sentenced to up to 16 years for espionage. and that happened in december 2018. and trevor reed who is facing nine years for an alleged assault of a police officer from august 2019. both of these men are still imprisoned in russia. they both been convicted. so, there's a precedent here and it is not a good precedent in terms of brittney griner's case. >> the timing of all of this is obviously very curious. do you believe these are remotely legitimate charges?

or is britney effectively being held as a potential prisoner of sorts by the russians, given that the current climate russia is in with confrontation with america and the west? >> this is where it's tricky. russia has very strict drug laws. regular -- some of the things regular americans take -- anti depression, anti anxiety. those are considered controlled substances in russia. one thing is, she could've totally been using these vape print pens which are illegal in the united states. and she brought them to russia presuming they would be legal and they are. that is one problem. the second problem is these are completely trumped up charges. if she did use these pens, these is not in any way shape or form enough to be charged with trafficking, which is essentially what she's been charged with. so that part is what makes this very particular and very worrisome. because we don't know exactly

when she was arrested and taken into custody. the film produced by the press service says only february 22. that's the only information the russian government has given us publicly. we don't know alone she's been there. before the war, after the war started. all of this is possible she could be held as some type of leverage. o leve>> okay, kimberly, thank yoo much for joining us this evening. really appreciated. joining me now are joel reuben. former deputy assistant secretary of state. david rhodes, news editor at the new yorker an msnbc contributor. gentleman, great at both of you with us. joel, i'll start with you. we saw the kremlin destroyed the last vestiges of any kind of independent press that existed in russia. a small as that might have been prior to this week. some are saying that move alone, of course with the invasion of ukraine, completed putin's evolution from authoritarian into totalitarian. what do you make of that?

>> ayman, absolutely. it's a frightening transformation where martial law potentially is going to be called next inside of russia. the clampdown is real. the russian state is solidifying itself internally, and now is wally off from the external world. getting communications into russia is crucial for the united states and for the west, because they want the russian people to understand why is that vladimir putin is doing in their name. there have been discussions in washington now about shortwave we do is one potential way to get information in. because the clampdown is on and it's deeply concerning for the russian people. hundreds, if not thousands are being arrested for protesting the war. they're not allowed to call it a war. they'll go to prison for 10 to 15 years if they use that word. so, this is a very serious development. it's something that really is unprecedented unprecedented importance. time >> david, i'm sure you've seen the reports and certainly there been some estimates in

the west that putin and his generals had planned to capture ukraine in just a matter of days. clearly, that has not happened. and it's not going according to the plains. this war has now entered its second week with no major city under russian control. certainly, when you think of ukraine being divided between two major cities including kyiv and kharkiv. how should we expect the conflicts to change her here on out? >> i think we're going to see a much larger refugee crisis. it's important for people to understand how large ukraine is in terms of its population. it's 40 million people. that's twice the number of people in syria. and the number of people that have already fled ukraine, on million and a half, is the same. it's more than the number of people from syria who fled to your over the course of many years in that conflict. mariupol, the city which is surrounded now, is 400,000

people. i covered the war in bosnia and sarajevo, which was the focus of a cease -- 300,000 people. everything is exponentially larger in ukraine. the un today, said there could be as many as 10 million refugees flooding in to europe. so, i see a continued slow siege and that's by war, but you're going to have a growing challenge of death by illness and starvation as well. and starvati>> of course, this s in the middle of a pandemic that has yet to be completely contained. joel, if putin really radically escalates attacks on civilians, which is hard to imagine given how barbaric his strategy has been so far. but if he radically escalates the violence, what tools to the west still have to punish him? and given the fact that we have spent so much currency already to impose these economic sanctions within the first two weeks? >> there still are many tools

available. there still are additional export control initiatives. the blocking of high technology. they're still our energy sanctions potentially out there. there is now this question of the no fly zone. and while that's off the table from the biden administration, certainly president zelenskyy today, in his congressional briefing, talked about the idea of potentially poland and other eastern flanked nato countries sending aircraft into ukraine, so ukrainians could fly them. so, there's a lot still on the table. clearly, vladimir putin is feeling that heat. he wouldn't be clamping down on his country in such an aggressive way if he didn't understand that they're very weak links underneath him right now. in terms of what he's doing. but it still going to take some more time. to david's point, this lightning speed of humanitarian crisis, over 1 million please

pull have been displaced over ready. just over week. which is stunning. and the budget that the president just submitted a day ago for supplemental funding talks about 18 million ukrainians needing humanitarian assistance over the next three months. so this is extraordinary fast. highly destabilizing. these other tools, they're probably going to have to be moving quickly to really move putin off of the direction that he. zone direction tha>> david, let me r thoughts quick on this brittney griner story. pretty significant. but can you talk to me about the history of russia using detainees as leverage? >> yes, as was mentioned, i think this is utter outrageous. brittney is innocent. paul we learn and trevor reed, the americans convicted fall sea of espionage are innocent as well. i was held captive by the taliban many years ago. what's changed since the war on terror, just in the last four or five years, is that

americans being detained overseas, it was about 80% terrorists and insurgent groups five years ago. it's now 80 or 90% autocratic governments. this is what iran does. this is what north korea does. it's outrageous. it's wrong. it's shameful. it's another sign of putin's desperation. brittney griner is innocent. >> right, joel, david, stick around for. we have a lot more to discuss. still ahead, the public health crisis developing in ukraine. plus, the race to flee as russian troops push closer to major urban areas. >> when i was leaving, i had to take all of my life in these bags. this is all my life. this is heartbreaking. it's not because i love things. it's just, this is 68 years of my life in this bag. on't.

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yet one of the main countries where ukrainians have fled. sky news correspondent alistair bungle has this report for us. >> a stream of refugees crossing the border now is almost constant. and it's increasing all the time. it is snowing here. it is bitterly cold. but at least it's safe. almost everyone has left someone behind. decisions they'll never forget. >> i told my mom that i will go to save my life. i was crying and telling me that maybe she will never see me again. >> for a few, there is sheer relief at the reunited with family. most though, arrive dazed, unsure of what's next. >> i hope we will win soon. the war will end and we will come home again.

>> at the moment, the authorities here are coping. there's enough food. there's enough shelter. there's enough help. but if the numbers double, triple, quadrupled even? it's fair to say that at the moment the, romanians have kind of got it sorted. it's a pretty good operation. they move people here as quick as they can do. food, drinks for them, they process them. buses, three buses and then into the local towns and villages. but the numbers are getting more. there was an 8% more refugees yesterday than the day before that. there's already been more today again. on one side of the border, there are humans killing humans. just the other side, humans helping humans. there's something quite life for me in the way eastern europeans are doing everything they can to look after their neighbors. alasdair buckle, sky news, on

the ukrainian, remaining border. the ukrainia>> that was sky newr buckle reporting there. the casualties from russia's invasion of ukraine aren't just from guns and bombs. the nation was already dealing with the covid pandemic before ukrainians were forced into close quarters. into trains, bomb shelters and even refugee camps. potentially worsening the covid crisis in the. region what's more, critical medications and hospital supplies are now we're running out. putting not just the war wounded at risk. but ukrainians with underlying medical conditions such as diabetes as well. for more, we are joined by emergency medicine physician doctor durrani. doctor the running, great to have you with us. as we've seen in the past and other conflict zones, violence in places like the democratic republic of congo, helped the spread of ebola. violence in syria helped the spread of polio. how worried should we be that the war in ukraine could worsen the spread of covid-19? >> yes, appreciate you having

me. look, pieces of prerequisite for a health care system. you can't have preventative medicine if you're being bombed. that just doesn't exist on. top of that, health care is a human right and that right does not exist when war starts. so, right now the ukrainian people, their health is under attack from a few different race. right? there's obviously the explosions and the bombing. that's going to lead to direct injuries. on top of that, as you mentioned, there is the covid-19 pandemic. and the vaccination rates are under 40%. that combined with tight quarters, because of how being evacuated, is going to lead to more cases. i wish i could say otherwise, that's what's going to happen. there's also a polio outbreak. and of last year, in ukraine, they were ramping up of vaccination campaign around. that snow stop. that's a concern. you always have things like tuberculosis and other communicable diseases that arise when you have mass migration shifts. so, there's going to be a lot of factors at play. i think the main thing we really need to focus on is ensuring safe, humanitarian

quarters to get them medical supplies and get our patients. >> yes, that ripple effect is quite concerning when you think about where the war started last month. the world health organization warned that ukraine was already running low on medical oxygen, insulin, cancer drugs and other supplies. and that was before some of the major cities were encircled and hospitals were shelled. i can only imagine it is even harder to get supplies now. is even possible now to get those supplies in to those who need it, without some kind of cease-fire? >> yes, you know, the american college of emergency physicians has been talking with our colleagues there in ukraine. it seems like that's something that really is a difficult situation, in terms of getting those medical supplies in. and it's not really happening to the level it needs to be. trauma patients and trauma victims require a lot of resources. oxygen, blood, tetanus shots, antibiotics, surgeons, sutures, and all of that -- no trauma system, not in the

united states, can be sustained, unless this re-supplied on a continuous basis. essentially, what we have in ukraine right now is a continuous mass casualty event after continuous mass casualty event. so, unless some major changes are made in terms of an agreement to get a bunch of supplies in and get patients transferred out, people are going to suffer. >> this morning, efforts to evacuate civilians from the ukrainian city of mariupol were halted, as i understand it, after ukrainians said that russian forces broke a temporary cease-fire. local hospitals may have to start triaging patients and rationing care. it is a grim fought. what does that look like, when hospitals have to ration care? >> that's a worse nightmare for any medical provider. and essentially, you breakdown patients into three categories. patients who can get up and walk around and are weak and alert. you say hey, you need to leave the hospital or medical

facility, because you are not that bad of. there's those that are pulse-less or might not be breathing well, or who might be having mass leading. those patients, unfortunately, you can't use those extra merits years that you normally would use to save them. you focus on those patients where you have a good probability of getting them stabilize and getting them hopefully definitive care. those are battlefield medicine essentially. as disaster medicine. that is something that in 2022 we really shouldn't be dealing with, unless it's a limited natural disaster situation. so, given that this war does it seem like it's going to end tomorrow, the next day, some major, major interventions from the international community need to be made. so that we don't get into that mode on a continuous basis and lose a necessary life. >> absolutely. disturbing scenario that we certainly need to avoid. doctor away's durrani, thank you so much. a great pleasure. >> thank. you so >> far, an estimated 1.3

million people have fled the fighting in ukraine. as the russian shelling intensifies, more and more people are using pack trains and cars to travel hundreds of miles to relative safety. for more on the multiple growing humanitarian crises in ukraine, let's turn back to my panel, julie reuben and david roads. joel, we've seen some instances of racism, unfortunately, on the border. but europe is definitely opening up to more refugees than they have from other recent worse. is eight -- amin, is it basically that the tide is turning here? how do you explain it? world there be more pressure to let in more people fleeing other conflicts now, going forward? >> i certainly hope so, ayman. what we're seeing now is the generosity of your neighbors. and we're seeing international community come forward very aggressively. there been votes and you had, for example, where just this past week, only five countries, including russia, a post resolution condemning russia. for countries alongside is a very poor showing.

the un commission on human rights, 32 out of 47 countries voted to open a commission of inquiry for crimes by russia. we're seeing it to this point there. have to be borders that are open for refugees. third parties who are trapped in the country as well have been targeted. this was discussed earlier. that is a big concern. we're seeing diplomatic efforts. i hope this makes the world understand is that what vladimir putin is doing is targeting -- this is a deliberate strategy he's employing, and he's not alone. this is what bashar al-assad did. this is what other doctors do and other tyrants. they use civilians and they target them. and they hope that the others -- by supporting the civilians, hopefully that will alleviate the pressure and we can turn around this dynamic. >> david, you are among the

first, if not the first to investigate the -- massacre of asean muslims back by the serves during the fighting in the former yugoslavia in 1995. how concerned are you about mass atrocities like that occurring in the ukrainian, russia conflict? i mean, how is it similar, how is it different? t different?i >> think it's simt you have these militia forces from the donbas, the kind of breakaway area areas. which is a russian-backed operation. they operate in syria. they're partly in ukraine now. . this was an and pulled and -- liz about the service feeling like the west had not stood up for them. they took the united states -- they were death peacekeeper sent to protect. and when that serves attacked, no one protected them. there were very few nato

airstrikes. 8000 bosnian muslim men and boys were killed. so, i fear that if the west loses its focus, if it gets distracted from ukraine, they'll be an effort to terrorize ukrainians and there could be mass atrocities. it's frightening. lastly, i was looking at this, in grozny, the russian offensive in chechnya, putin -- the population was starved there. was very little food in the city. civilians were forced to flee a reporting to human rights watch in 1999 about medieval siege tactics being used by russian forces in grozny. >> joel, yesterday russians defense minister said quote, the russian army does not threaten civilians. does not shell civilian objects. we've all seen the videos of bombs falling on apartment buildings. you are a former state department official. what is your reaction to what the russian government just put

out this utter nonsense for lack of better word? >> deplorable. , disgraceful. contrary to logic, orwellian. this is why it's been so important for the biden menstruation to do what is been doing for the past several months. which is to publicly share information with the world, so that the world knows that this regime, this russian leader and his people are trying to gaslight the rest of the world into believing different from the facts on the ground. and i believe that that worked. so, we're seeing the russians, they're desperate to try to show something different from what they're actually doing. warcrimes, as david mentioned, aleppo in syria. mass bombing, destruction of the whole city of civilians. this is right here in front of us. in front of our eyes. we know it, we see it. so, the russians, for some reason they just think they can convince the world and they can't. it really demonstrates a

dishonourable approach to engaging on this issue. and demonstrates they really don't have an interest at this stage in any real solution. they just won the war as it is right now to take over a country, illegally, and just grab it. and that's what we're up against right now. david, something i keep wondering. what happens when a lot of these russian troops come back knowing what happened, and what they did does not square with what the kremlin has told the russian people? >> that is an excellent point. i think time is against vladimir putin. his forces will eventually seize kyiv and ukraine, but the longer it takes, the more challenges he faces that home. as those bodies returned home. the mothers of soldiers that died, or a very strong political force in russia.

and i agree with you, as these russian soldiers return and tell the truth to their family members, that will be the way of vladimir putin. i think he's losing the long term -- i think the economic sanctions are hurting him. it will be painful to see what happens in the weeks ahead in ukraine. but this has weakened vladimir putin. he is more and more desperate. in the long term, if these economic sanctions are maintained, he will lose popular support in russia about power. but this is hurting him. and he is just asked russell miscalculating by invading ukraine. >> david roe, joe, thank you for your insights this evening. still ahead, the psychological toll of the russian invasion on the situation on the ground. stay with us. >> did you ever have a moment when you thought you wouldn't make it out of ukraine alive? >> yes. yes. we don't even sleep.

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for the lowest price ever. plus choose from the latest 5g smartphones. get more 5g bars in more places- switch to t-mobile for business today. israeli prime minister secretly traveled to russia moscow on saturday, to discuss a possible cease-fire with vladimir putin. making some diplomatic moves today. nbc news has the latest from brussels. >> an israeli government official tells me that the meeting in moscow, with the prime minister, lasted for three hours as the israeli leader steps up as the latest to try and act as an intermediary, have negotiations, and move forward with putin ukraine and the u.s. to de-escalate the situation. the prime minister also communicating his concerns about israelis and the jewish

community, potentially caught up in this conflict. now, the prime minister heads to germany, where he will meet with the german chancellor to brief him on the meeting with putin. we are also told that the israeli prime minister was able to speak on the phone with prime minister's alencia of ukraine. that takes place as the state department today issues an alarming warning, for all officials in russia to get out now. that's a step up from the last several weeks where the u.s. was encouraging people to start leaving, but not saying that they needed to leave immediately. now, the -- and less and less options for americans to fly out of the country. the u.s. says it is time to leave. the latest indication of the concerns about, that we are learning, wnba player brittani is taking the heat for what's

custom saying is hashish oil found in her wallet. they said that they are in contact with her lawyers, and her health and safety are the top concern for them. the u.s. continuing the diplomacy today, with anthony blinking in poland, where he visited a -- on the ukrainian poland border. the top ukrainian diplomat really putting blinken on the spot. saying nato's responsibilities is to stand up. and ukrainians will play the price for the reluctance of ukraine and the west to impose a no fly zone. but even at the u.s. says that is not in the cards, and telling ukrainian diplomats that u.s. will step up with more weapons that the u.s. will be shipping to ukraine, as nato allies try to provide ukrainians with what they need to fight the russians themselves. >> that was nbc's john lederman

reporting us to brussels. and an increasingly common sight in ukraine. here, you can see ordinary ukrainian citizens, not soldiers, coming face to face with russian soldiers and forces. in this video, a man is seen trying to physically push a russian tank back before kneeling in front of it. videos like this are called brave, and heroes. and let's be clear, they are! but there more than that! because behind every of these headlines, these acts of bravery, is someone being pushed to their limits. this week, dr. in e.t. shared a reminder online highlighting the resilience of ukrainians is extremely important to boost morale, but let's not paint a caricature at the expense of their mental health. humans are wired are self preservation. during disasters, our stress response goes into overdrive. with all that adrenaline surging, we do a pretty good

job with keeping our emotions in check. but once that adrenaline fades? that's when the tsunami of emotions hits. just take a listen to what one ukraine citizen fleeing the hardly hague kyiv, with cal perry. >> it was pretty much giving our soldier that, every second. our train stopped in the middle of kyiv, and they were shooting. and we heard bombs flying all over. and i thought, this particular moment i can die. >> how did you survive? >> i do not think i did. we all are super, mentally broken. to be honest, i do have ptsd. i do! very bad kind of. anytime i hear a sound or anything i start shaking. >> anything else you want to say? >> please do cherish clear

skies. every time you see skies! cherish every moment of your life! >> that is the reality of war. these people are not choosing to be heroes, they are simply trying to survive. inside ukraine, millions of civilians are still stranded. they're hiding in shelters and metro stations as basic supplies like food, water, and other hygiene foods and materials run out. but long after the bullets stop in the last missiles are fired, the residual's of the conflict will remain like we have never seen. but we have seen it before. one study in afghanistan looked at the mental impact of war, civilians found that 67% of respondents -- 72% had exhibit e and -- had post-traumatic stress disorder. now ukrainians will carry the

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voltaren is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory gel for powerful arthritis pain relief. voltaren, the joy of movement. >> to every ukrainian, their fearlessness, courage and determination literally inspires the world. groups as citizens, walking tanks with their bodies. everyone from students to retirees to, turned soldiers, defending their homeland. >> president biden sprees of the ukrainian people was met with thunderous applause at his state of the union address. the and the audience, lawmakers wore blue and yellow and wave flags in support of ukraine. that is solidarity in the form of colorful clothing and even economic sanctions enough? -- global opinions editor for the washington post doesn't seem to think so. in her new piece for the post, she cautions against quote,

overtly romanticizing ukrainians struggles in a way that absolves the international community of its moral responsibilities. karen joins me now. karen, thank you so much for being on with me. can symbolic appearances of solidarity actually who heard the people they appear to be trying to help? >> symbolic appearances are symbolic. they serve a role. they serve a role in raising awareness for foreign audiences about what is happening. but honestly as you talk about in your last segment, there's nothing romantic about war. there is nothing game glamorous about war. there's -- even if we saw images of people not being heroes, they're still worthy of our support and our encouragement. and i worry mostly about, okay, what happens here and our safe living rooms if this conflict drags on for weeks and weeks

more. and the cameras move on, the intention moves on, the headlines move on. these people will still be suffering? all right. so for me in the piece, there's so many things we can do for ukrainians, not just retraining, but all people who are faced with the prospect of unjustified invasions. >> you bring up a really good point. i'm sure you heard president biden there talk about the ukrainian people's bravery, that kind of language can simplify a really complicated situation. we tried to do that in a conflict between good and evil. and want you to listen to a former advisor to president zelenskyy, who is still in ukraine, said on this network earlier this week. listen to this. >> it was day six of the war, so my family -- the state was disintegrating. my younger daughter was crying. on the other hand, it's difficult for a 13 year old to

think -- get a grip on the situation. we're in the middle middle of a major conflict. i mean, there's something too difficult for adults to process. so, i can't even imagine what it's like for her. so, she literally -- we all literally broke down crying. out of the blue. >> do you think that we truly understand the depth of trauma that the ukrainian people are currently experiencing? >> no. most of us just cannot. and this is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. my mother and grandmother unfortunately passed away last week. they were in nigeria's civil war back in the 60s. and to this day, i remember hearing stories of my grandmother not being able to hear the sounds of planes overhead, without crouching in fear. my mother not being able to talk about what happened to her at 14, four years. war is something that continues

to steal, not just from the generations of x that experienced it, but generations to come after that. one thing i think about, particularly as we have memes talking about how great zelenskyy is. worthy about being crash where the. just think about how ukrainians would feel if they're seeing means from america. jokes about the war. there's nothing to joke about when it comes to these situations. not just that, but the soldiers on both sides. war is horrific. and i think we could all do well to take a pause and remember that. >> during the peak of the covid-19 pandemic, we priest health care workers as heroes without doing much to help them. and now we're doing the same thing with the people in ukraine. what kind of disservice is it to pete normal people as heroes

and then simply not follow through on that promises we make to take care of them and help them? does it stripped them of their humanity in some way? >> strips us of a lot of responsibility, doesn't it? if you pay people as superhuman, able to stop tanks and able to stop viruses, out of their goodwill and bravery, it absolves us -- those who can do something, or governments who can do something -- of doing what is necessary to even prevent them from having to be in that position in the first place. in the piece that i wrote, it's a good thing that biden is providing temporary protective status to ukraine. but i also think when it comes to the victims of war, say in the middle east, say in africa, they also are not necessarily deserving of the same hero worship and resilience and all of that. they're deserving of a law and order that protects their rights. >> absolutely important point

and i'm so glad you brought that at. why is social media's role in this. because on the one hand, eight brought us together as a world in the sense that we can be living in one corner of the earth but. at the same time, seeing in realtime something that is happening. but at the same time, it has also allowed for divisions to take place. how can the role of social media in this situation further separate people from human beings or from one another? or bring us together when you see an image that moves us? >> again, is sort of to your point. i mean, we're able to consume millions, thousands of images and soundbites about what's happening across the world. and yet, not able to cross process perhaps very well what that means in terms of the trauma. what that means in terms of all of the information that we're consuming, are we closer to the

knowledge necessary as governments, as democracies? closer to being able to create a safer world, i think. so, again, with every war, whether they're social media or not, a formation is often the first casualty of that war. so there's a lot of misinformation, disinformation. fake photos, fake news. so, people have to exercise a lot of caution, i think, when they're sharing and re-posting. but sharing and re-posting maybe gives us a sense that we're doing something. a sense of comfort. a sense of awareness. but i think we have to really caution ourselves about the fact that it's only -- we can only do so much. social media will not end a war. >> absolutely. karen attiah, think you so much. greatly appreciate your insights as always. thanks for coming on.

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