tv Alex Witt Reports MSNBC March 6, 2022 10:00am-11:00am PST
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a very good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. welcome, everyone, to alex whit reports. we have breaking news on both military and diplomatic fronts on the invasion of ukraine. they are tightening the crews, including tightening russian oil. >> when it comes to oil, i was on the phone with the president and members of the cabinet on exactly the subject. we are talking to our european partners and allies to look in a coordinated way at the prospect of banning the import of russian oil while making sure that there is still appropriate supply of oil on world markets. that's a very active discussion
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as we speak. >> ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy has been clamoring for a ban on russian oil as well as a no-fly zone to deter russian bombers. the u.s. and nato maintain they will not create a no-fly zone but the plan may be in the works for poland to deliver old mig fighter jets to ukraine. on the ground concern russian forces are preparing to bombard the port city of odessa in the south. civilians fleeing appear to be coming under fire. >> [ bleep ]. [ bleep ]. [ bleep ]. [ bleep ]. >> and that's a blast that took place in urpin today. a woman and two children were killed in a similar attack. that report is corroborated by "the new york times," but nbc news has not yet able to
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independently confirm that. on the diplomatic front, israel, turkey, france, britain say they have all pressed russian president vladimir putin for an urgent general cease-fire in the last few hours. french president emanuel macron said he spent nearly two hours with putin on the phone today urging him to end operations and also protect nuclear sites. all leaders reported putin did not agree to end the attacks. let's go now to nbc news correspondents overseas and here in the states. as i welcome you all, we'll go right to mollie hunter on the ground for us in lviv. mollie where do things stand there as they brace for the 11th night of war? how fortified do you think the city behind you is? >> reporter: yeah, i mean lviv is all the way west in the country as you know. we've been focus you on kyiv. we are near the hungarian border for context.
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a few days ago they were essentially building a ring of steel around the city. we went through a heavily fortified checkpoint, become a blockade. we are seeing government buildings like police headquarters, hotels like this one that we're staying at, they have stepped up their security. they are creating makeshift bombshellters wherever they can. i want to focus on the news of the day in the southeast mariupol. this is the second day residents woke up thinking today was going to be the day they would escape the city under constant russian bombardment in a humanitarian corridor. a few hours after the cease-fire, it came crashing down. red cross is on the ground. they say, they remain in mariupol if the parties reach an agreement which is for them alone to implement and respect. the red cross, alex, started the
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day trying to open the humanitarian corridor. they said the only way a cease-fire could workout is if conditions are met, the two parties agree on a specific time, location, evacuation route. if the people who may be ville trill evacuated are clearly identified, and whether the agreement also allows assistance to be brought in. we know from mariupol city council there was a truck headed on that same designated humanitarian route. it is still on its way. it has not reached mariupol. i want to take you to a suburb of kyiv. you mentioned in your open yesterday, the icrc says they were able to evacuate 3,000 civilians. today they were planning to do the same when russian shelling hit the exact location. they knew civilians were going to be evacuated and we heard confirmation from the mayor of that city. that's kyiv suburb, that eight
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people were killed including a family of four. again, all of these people from mariupol are trying to flee the east getting to relative safety of the west. alex, the fear here is the war moves west. >> of course, mollie, thank you for that comprehensive report. stay warm, my friend. i know how hard it is to be out in the cold reporting like that. the president is facing pressure from lawmakers to block russian oil. sahil is in washington. they pushed back on the request. what about today? it seems like a bit of a shift in tune. >> reporter: that's right, alex, this is a shift from the white house which a few days ago knocked down the idea of banning imports from russia. it would force americans to pay higher prices at the pump. now the united states says that calculus may be changing. take a listen to what secretary of state tony blinken said this morning on "meet the press."
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>> we are in active discussions with our european partners about banning the import of russian oil to our countries, while of course at the same time maintaining a steady global supply of oil. the actions we've taken to date have already had a devastating impact on the russian economy, but we are looking, again, as we speak in coordination with allies and partners at the prospect of banning oil. >> reporter: now, the backdrop here, alex, is president biden is facing bipartisan pressure to ban it. like speaker pelosi and dick durbin have jumped on board all while biden is working on three different things. helping from a humanitarian effort, preventing putin and triggering a no-fly zone that could trigger a full-scale war.
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there is swift talk of banning russian oil imports, the talk for economic sanctions is growing as is the mechanism to punish putin. >> thank you, sahil, from new york. joining me is congressman adam smith from the armed services committee. i'm going to get to the question in a moment with you. i know you spoke this weekend with the chair of the ukrainian legislatures defense committee. talk to me about that conversation, what you can tell us, relative to their situation and their needs. >> sure, yeah. i spoke with him yesterday morning, i spoke with him again this morning. the ukrainian government, ukrainian people are asking for all the help that they can get. the bottom line is they want us to intervene militarily to help them. you know, we have the broader issue of not wanting to go to war with russia and how it might expand the war and cause more suffering on a larger scale. the ukrainians like alexander,
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they're desperate. they want help. and the larger questions they're not really focused on. they want as much help as is humanly possible. and the emphasis, no-fly zone, the fighter jets that you've talked about that poland could potentially get them and tougher sanctions. they are pushing us hard to give them everything we possibly can. >> what do you think about this potential deal that's in the works, rather, at least the discussion is there, allowing poland to put forward their soviet era mig jets and the u.s. backfill what they lose with american planes. how likely is this to happen? what are the hiccoughs there? >> i support it. it's a decent step. the biggest hiccough is getting primarily the polish government. there has been talk about slovakia and i think romania
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having planes as well. it's getting those governments to saw firmtively say, yes, we will give up those planes. at the moment they're not saying that. there has been discussion that we'll do it if you give us this. they should. they're asking for six f-16s, which we ought to be able to provide. >> let me ask you about potentially providing offof this. are you at all concerned putin would see this as an act of war, this military hardware, or a step further, i'm going to what general barry mccaffery told me, drones could be effective, drones that were made in the united states and passed on to different countries that would be able to get that to ukraine. could that be seen as an act of war, either of these two measures? >> there's a series of steps. i'll try to get through this quickly. but up front putin has been saying a lot of things are an act of war. he said the swift sanctions are
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an act of war. putin is trying to put that out there as a threat to stop us from helping. putin has a bit of a problem here, too. if he treats this as an act of war and if he attacks the u.s. ore nato ally, then he's pulling us in. and whatever we may do in terms of providing jet fighters or humanitarian aid or stingers and javelins or economic sanctions, putin does not want the full force of the u.s. military and ukraine coming down on him. if he takes that active things and pushes it too far, they don't want that full scale presentation. they're stretched. he doesn't want to walk that line. a lot of things putin has said would be an act of war. as far as the drone issue, if we were providing drones to the ukrainians, that would be one thing. if general mccaffery is talking about us flying drones and operating those drones for primarily targeting purposes,
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then that pushes us up close to the line. neither russia nor the u.s. wants this war. every step we take, every step he takes push ed's us closer to it. which brings me to the big point. what can we do to make this stop. the basic thing to make this stop, the russian leaders, the oligarchs pressure putin to stop. when i talk to alexander, it's a tough point to make. i understand where ukraine is at. it's about more than just ukraine. we have to figure out how to stop putin from going further no matter how ukraine comes out. ideally, we stop him by stopping him in ukraine, and that's the end of it. but one way or the other, we don't want this going beyond ukraine. and that is an interest we must take seriously if you're in a decision-making position in the united states government. >> when you talk about the potential of stopping putin or
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convincing him, how do you feel about those conversations that just were held today, the turkish president, boris johnson, macron spoke with putin an hour and 45 minutes, and they come up with nothing. he is not agreeing to back off on any level in any way. so where does diplomacy head now? >> look, this is a terrible situation, and i don't think anyone should look at the situation and be optimistic. there's nothing optimistic about it. putin is basically determined to treat ukraine the same way he treated chechnya, the same way he treated syria. the blunt force violence can succeed and he won't be stopped. so i'm not being pie in the sky here, but you have to do what you can do. and i think those conversations, those efforts from countries like turkey and israel and france got to keep putting pressure on him by any means possible. that's what we can do. but the line -- and i thought i
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saw your discussion at the close of the last hour. i thought it was incredibly on point. let's not forget that a no-fly zone is an act of war, no question about it. it means shooting down russian jets, it means them shooting at us. and stepping over that line, getting into a full-scale war with russia is devastating. it's something i, i'll be perfectly clear as sympathetic i am with the ukrainian people, i was there in august, i met about alexander, met with his committee, the leaders there to see what's happening in ukraine right now, it's horrific and devastating. but it would be less than honest to say we're going to start a war with russia as a reasonable response to that. the risks are high no matter which way you go and we've got to keep that in mind. >> congressman adam smith, always good to talk with you and get the straight story. many thanks, my friend. >> thank you. how this all ends, is a diplomatic solution possible
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based on the conversation i was just happening? what is a diplomatic off ramp look like? first the voices of ukraine as those people forge ahead valiantly. >> it hurts you to see this. >> of course. you can't prepare yourself for this. you can't. but after nine days now, i have experience in this, nobody has experience in this war situation here. but we have to focus.
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this breaking news to report in just moments, secretary of state antony blinken is expected to land in the baltics. let's go to nbc's josh lederman. can you share what's on blinken's agenda today? i know you're going to tell us about that near two-hour call with emanuel macron and vladimir putin. >> reporter: yeah, alex, secretary of state blinken's mission on this trip is very clear. he's visiting all three baltic
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nations. first lithuania, he will also visit latvia and estonia as the u.s. tries to make very clear to president putin that every inch of nato territory will be defended. that if there is any idea from the uses that they plan to expand this campaign beyond ukraine, that would put russia into a direct conflict with nato under article 5 as we discussed. nato would be forced to defend its territory. so the u.s. wants to make very clear to its baltic allies who are very scared at this point that they could potentially be the next target, that they are going to have their backs guarded by the rest of their nato allies. we heard from secretary blinken before he got on that flight to the ball ticks while he was in moldova, another russian neighbor that has been experiencing an influx of refugees from ukraine. and in moldova, blinken said that the u.s. is now talking with poland about perhaps a
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scheme in which the u.s. could give poland some new aircraft. in turn, poland would give some of its old soviet-era aircraft to ukraine to be able to use to fight the russians. blinken also said this about potentially banning russian imports of oil. take a listen. >> we are now in very active discussions with our european partners about banning the import of russian oil to our countries while, of course, at the same time maintaining a steady global supply of oil. if there are things that remain to do to increase the pressure, if he's unwilling to stop the aggression, we're going to do them. so we will look at each and every one, decide together with our allies and partners what's most effective, when we should do it and we'll proceed in that way. >> reporter: so while blinken is discussing with other allies what can be done to turn up the pressure on russia, a whole
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array of world leaders are trying to get into putin's ear trying to see if they can de-escalate this, possibly achieve a cease-fire so civilians can be evacuated. chief among them, president macron of france. he spent an hour 45 minutes today on the phone with president putin not only calling for that cease-fire, but urging putin to avoid any kind of attacks or attempts to seize nuclear sites in the wake of that harrowing incident in which they say there was shelling at the nuclear site, one of the buildings in the facility caught on fire. putin said he has no intentions to be targeting infrastructure sites, although it has been damaged. in the latest harrowing sign from president putin, he also said he has no intention of stopping what russia calls this special military operation unless and until they get unequivocally everything they want from the ukrainians, which
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includes neutral status of ukraine. dropping their nato bid, essentially becoming neutral between east and west, alex. >> yeah, okay. thank you very much, josh. i want to say we can see behind you there, the ukrainians or people supporting the ukrainian efforts. i know you're outside the russian embassy. it's good to see those flags draped there. joining me is ben rhodes, former adviser under president obama. author of the book, after the fall, being a member of the america we've made. any progress in the call? >> i sincerely doubt it, alex. i remember being in many phone calls president obama did with president putin when he was escalating in eastern ukraine in the donbas region. you can have putin giving you
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history of current events. i think the idea of a comprehensive diplomatic resolution to this stops the war is not even something that appears within reach in any way, shape or form at this point. it's likely that a lot of these conversations are focusing on much more specific issues like trying to establish humanitarian corridors through which ukrainian civilians can get out of besieged cities. limited portions of ukraine. the problem already we've seen with past russian negotiations, they will say one thing in diplomacy and do a different thing in reality. it seems like they've already obviously been shelling places while they've been talking about cease fires. >> yeah, you can't trust what they're saying. very interesting you would sit in on those phone calls relative to donbas and his encouragement there. what was your take away of vladimir putin's mental state?
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is this something that he -- you said he goes on and on and spins these false narratives. is it that you think he completely believes in them himself or he's trying to convince others of it or that he's not altogether there? >> you know, it's a really good question. it's one we spend a lot of time thinking about. he gives you some broad historical grievances, that the west created this, nato disrespected russia, one after the other to justify what he was doing. but then give you specific, we would know from information, made-up stories about ukrainian nazis threatening russian speakers in the donbas region, really hyperbolic claims of ethnic cleansing of russians. it's not borne out at all by the
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facts. the reality is does he believe these narratives or does he just use them to convince his people? i think he clearly believes the deeper narrative that he is responding to what he believes is the humiliation of russia after the end of the cold war. he is trying to restore what he believes is essentially the historical russian claim, not the soviet union, over russian-speaking peoples. so it's not focusing his attention on kyrgyzstan stan, it's ukraine, belarus, potentially parts of moldova and the baltics. that he believes. no question whether he believed that narrative. he answered it with this scale of invasion tragically. >> so given your experience, how do you envision any diplomatic off ramp for vladimir putin? what would that look like? what do you think would have to be promised? >> well, what he wants to do is eliminate the sovereignty of
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ukraine. it's part of it, but it's essentially russia-controlled ukraine. that's why they're fighting. if you consider how this might end, what he wanted to do is install a puppet government as he has in other chunks of territory like i did. a country of 44 million people feel a deep sense of nationalism, that's not going to work any more. imagine the ukrainian government, how long that would last if the russians didn't permanently occupy ukraine. would entertain a more minimalist version of his objective that goes back to him claiming the so-called separatist regions, would he settle on them at large? he wants to dee capitate this
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government and have something else come behind it. the reality is, i think we have to be honest, we should always be pursuing diplomacy. but vladimir putin's aims are in contradict with the ukrainian people's sense of their sovereignty. so long as it they don't want to live under russian domination, there's going to be a wrinkle. >> the u.s.'s allies iran, they are close to restoring the iran nuclear deal that donald trump pulled us out of. now that deal has been threatened by demands from russia, that sanctions won't prevent them from trading with teheran under a revived packed. it's complicated. how do you see that playing out? >> i think it's really complicated. look, the principal relief to the iranians is the relief they get from the sanctions that were
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relaxed through the jocpa. it's not their trade to russia, but russia is party to the agreement. they are part of the group that negotiated this with the iranians. to a an extent the iranian stock buying. what we'll see is the west and the united states is in a state of conflict general. russia, reciprocating other ways. cyber attacks, be a diplomatic spoiler like the iran deal, the detentions of americans we're starting to see inside of russia. in this case i think the question is whether or not the parties, i nuclear at iran, i hope that supersedes russia's
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efforts to drag it into the conflict of ukraine. >> ben rhodes, it is always a pleasure to talk with you. we learn so much. thank you. meantime, twitter takes action against russia's disinformation campaign. coming up next, we'll discuss the words coordinated in authentic behavior. at subway wait, that's new wait, you're new too nobody told you? subway's refreshing with better ingredients, better footlongs, and better spokespeople. because you gotta you gotta refresh to be fresh (vo) right now, the big switch is happening across the country. small businesses are fed up with big bills and 5g maps that are mostly gaps— they're switching to t-mobile for business and getting more 5g bars in more places. save over $1,000 when you switch to our ultimate business plan... ...for the lowest price ever. plus, choose from the latest 5g smartphones— like a free samsung galaxy s22. so switch to the network that helps your business do more for less—join the big switch to t-mobile for business today.
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the 1 millionth refugee will enter today. the numbers are growing. let's go to nbc's ellison barber. it's been remarkable reporting you've been doing. what are you seeing there today? >> reporter: alex, we've been to six different border crossings along the polish/ukrainian border. we've seen countless refugees come into the country. a country for most of them is foreign. a language they do not speak, sometimes a place they have not been before. every single person we meet, they have a story to tell. more than 1 1/2 million refugees have fled ukrainian since russia invaded. >> translator: i can't go back. there is no place to go back any more. >> reporter: the u.n. says nerl half of the people fleeing ukrainian are children.
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>> i have a little sister. father said we must go to the border because too dangerous staying in ukraine. >> reporter: people are fleeing from every corner of ukraine pouring into countries by the thousands. the largest number crossing into poland according to the u.n. refugee agency. what are your friends saying to you? what is it like now to be a teenager in ukraine? >> they really, really, really hate russians a lot. like they came, like russians, they came in another country. they are angry with russia. >> reporter: using a directive after the balkan wars, the european union granted refugee
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with status. they don't have file individual asylum claims and it can be extended up to three years. she believes ukraine will win this fight, but at 83, she feels this is the last she'll see of her beloved ukraine. >> translator: it's so painful in my heart. >> reporter: we've been to six crossings on the polish/ukrainian border and have seen the best of humanity. kindness. bravery. >> i brought my daughter to same place to czech republic, and my parents, now we're turning back to help my husband and my friend. >> reporter: 8-year-old angelina is trying to stay warm as her mother figures out where they'll go next. they just made it to poland. her brother and father stayed in ukraine to fight.
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you're very brave. >> translator: yes, i am. >> reporter: what do you want other kids who are watching this to know? >> translator: i want them not to be afraid and not to worry. i want them to listen to their parents. because their parents love them more than anyone else. >> reporter: in the first seven days since this war began, a million people fled. the number is a lot more now, but seven days, 1 million people fled ukrainian, and that number is mind boggling when you go and look at other more recent refugee crises. you look at venezuela. and in 2014 there was a time when the u.n. was talking about how a million people had fled the country in seven months, and that was incredibly fast. you look at syria. fighting began there in 2011.
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two years later, 2013, when the u.n. said a million people had fled syria. the circumstances for these three things there different. and you have a situation here where neighboring countries welcomed refugees with open arms. we should have a discussion why that didn't happen in other situations. but just from a numbers standpoint, when you think about how many people have fled ukraine so quickly, it is mind boggling and really unprecedented in modern times. alex? >> i very much appreciate that perspective. you're right. it is an influx as they're saying, we haven't seen. twitter is banning the hashtag i stand with putin for participating in unauthentic behavior. first off, what is
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coordinated in authentic behavior, who? >> reporter: very hard to even say it. usually means a bunch of spam accounts or troll accounts working in tandem to push something into that trending topic box. that's usually how it works. so, for example, a major i stand with putin tweet, this guy had four followers. fake profile picture, all that stuff. somehow his tweet wound up in the turning box in twitter. it was controlled by spam and bots to get it in people's faces. that's what twitter took action against. >> can you figure out the who behind it? is it russians doing it? >> reporter: twitter told me they can't contribute it to a specific actor. it could be for money, most likely for trolling.
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in a situation like this when this hashtag takes off when there isn't support for it, there might be something nefarious. >> if it's propaganda, is it falling short? >> reporter: i haven't seen russian propaganda flail around like this. this has been a complete fail ire from an opposition standpoint. they tried not bought and troll farms they tried to get people to rally in the west. it hasn't worked so far. >> what have they did not and other social media sites? >> a big thing happening now, you need to identify these things quicker and faster before they go bananas. in these anti-vax groups,
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they've been pushing the idea there are biolabs in ukraine and taking them out. sounds ludicrous, sounds crazy. they were repeating them. if they don't stop them, the russian defense will use it and push it worldwide. >> ben collins, i have more questions for you, but we'll save it for another time. thank you very much. america and the rest of the world remain outraged. question, should emotions dictate policy? my next guest has some hard answers. s.
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move yesterday. it comes as major diplomatic efforts are underway, french of the macron, turkey's erdogan seeking a cease-fire to no avail. 1 million ukrainians have fled their country. according to the. u.n., this is the fastest refugee crisis since world war ii. media is shutting down offices in russia according to a new law. they say it is an assault, invasion. a senior reporter and editorial producer at real vision, known as r.t. america. alona, welcome. are you surprised by this law? it feels so draconian. has there always been in your experience some level of media
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censorship in russia? >> i think we have consistently seen throughout putin's tenure this slow move to create more censorship. i would say i'm not surprised at this current moment given the way things have been going the last two weeks. i have been shocked and surprised things have gone this far. that putin has invaded ukraine. i think so many people never thought it would get to this point. now i fear this is just the beginning of even more draconian measures happening inside of russia. what putin is trying to do is essentially take all of the oxygen out of the room and choke out the information from russia so people are living within this information bubble. we have seen miami heat shut down websites and twitter and facebook. people are doing what they can to communicate.
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people are using telegram. some people are using starlink to try to use twitter. who knows where that goes next. that's the scary thing. >> the latest poll show more than 70% support russia sending troops in ukraine. here's how professor nina sheva, the granddaughter of nikita khrushchev. >> the latest poll shows putin's approval rating went to 71%. it was in the 60s before, now 71, not because he is popular, but because the west is unpopular and 60% suring up that issue. that could be something that keeps him in power.
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russia feels the west is out to get them. >> is it in a russian's best interest to speak their mind freely in response to these kind of questions? >> i think you have to take every poll with a grainful salt. the truth is right in the middle right now. because despite the poll numbers you're quoting, you had large numbers of demonstrators that have continued to really come out in moscow and st. petersburg and other countries and just today, thousands of peopling being rounded up so people are opposed to this effort. one thing i worry about just from the conversation i've had with a lot of people who are living in the country, they are trying to flee.
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people who are worried about this wore and putin's government. if those are all the people that leave to show some kind of descent. nina and i were talking about this. there tends to be something putin has been ginning up, it's russia against the rest of the world in terms of sanctions, in terms of athletics, private industry, everybody cutting russia off completely. it's going to affect some russians for their daily life, it's everybody against us. that can tend to be a unifying
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effort. historically we don't always see them lead to huge politically change in those countries or revolution. in russia i think it could really go either way. i just want to say personally i was born there and i have so many people i care about in the country. as someone who was born there and care about so many people, i have so many emotions. . so anger that this war is being carried out. an attack is being carried out in the name of the russian people and the lives being torn apart but also a sadness and a deep sense of grief for what russia could have been and what direction the country was going in. and now i fear that there are just very, very dark days ahead there. >> i think you are right. thank you so much for weighing in. is america doing enough to help ukrainian? if you think there's an easy
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as russia's bloody attack on ukraine escalates, many of you are sitting at home watching. you're feeling frustrated, even a sense of guilt. a new op-ed encapsulates all of these emotions and urges americans to stay calm. joining me now, the author of that piece, tom nichols. you write how night after night you were watching this unfold on tv. almost paralyzed with anger and grief. you say in my rage, i want someone somewhere to do something. i've taught military and national security affairs for more than a quarter century and i know what will happen when a 40-mile column of men and weapons encircles a city of outgunned defenders. i want all the might of the civilized world, a world of which putin is no longer a part, to over blitz rate the invading
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forces. and yet i still caution restraint. many americans find it hard to understand but every part of our outrage is understandable. emotions should never dictate policy. powerful there. tell me why. >> because i don't want this to become a wider war. this is already the greatest war raging in europe since world war ii. thousands are dying. my heart breaks. i have walked the streets of kyiv and other ukrainian cities. i am actually a member of the orthodox church. but i think this is a time for americans to understand that we shouldn't employ euphemisms, that we've gotten used to. euphemism that's we've internal liesized about no-fly zones.
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what we mean is war. and if people are advocating for going to war against russia, they should say so out loud. because then we have to think through consequences of that. i think at this point putin will escalate the violence in ukraine because he will want to draw nato in. this whole thing has gone wrong. it's a disaster. it could unspool his regime in the long run. not in the next few days or weeks but i think this is an unrecoverable blunder for the russian regime. and i think we need to just, as painful, as horrifyingly heart breaking as it is, that we shouldn't give him the wider european and maybe even global war that i think at this point he may want as his only way out of this incredible mistake. this crime that he is now in the middle of. >> i love the way you put this. i'm going to read part of this. you write the only way putin can
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save himself from his own fiasco is to bait the west boo an attack. nothing would help him more than at home o'abroad than if any nato countries were to enter hostilities with russian forces. putin would use the conflict to rally his people and threaten conventional and nuclear attacks against nato. he would become a hero at home and ukraine would be forgotten. it is something that really stands -- it bears repeating. because it makes total sense. that could be his plan. >> putin has sold this war in so far as he cares about selling it at all, at least within his own country and maybe even within the small circle of people who know what he's up to at any given time. this was going to be a quick relatively bloodless operation to save the ukrainians, a people he keeps saying are indistinguishable from russians. that they are the same people.
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they are brothers and sisters. both ethnically as slafs and member of the same faith. and all the world sees and even the russians will see it. he cannot seal off russia from international media and news. all that anyone is seeing is vladimir putin murdering his supposedly his brothers and sisters, and his co-religionists. putin would probably like nothing better than to replace that with footage of nato jets streaking across the skies of ukraine toward the border with russia. i think something else people need to understand about intervention. it does not simply mean a reset or a doover or you know, everyone go back to their starting lines and behave. if you're talking about intervention, you are talking about destroying russian forces. not only in the sky but on the ground including your defense forces, and including the kinds of military assets that are murdering ukrainians right now.
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because the biggest problem the ukrainians have, those problems are coming from artillery and from weapons on the ground. if people want to argue for a kind of libya style operation, where nato air forces to go war against russia and destroy russian assets on the ground, then they should say so explicitly instead of this kind of mock debate we're having about a quick and easy no-fly zone which will be neither easy or quick and will escalate general war across europe. >> i'm told i have to go but i must read this. he will win on the ground in the short run. in the end he'll be lucky to get out of ukraine with his military intact, if he's even still in power. is that a potential scenario that you see as being accurate? possible? >> i'll just say quickly. people shouldn't get their hopes up. this won't be some kind of palace coup. i think in the longer term,
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months, maybe even a year, two years. i've argued repeatedly that russia has passed its high water mark as a great power in the post cold war era. the minute they invaded ukraine, they became an invading power. >> i want to thank you for coming on and talking about it. a beautiful article you wrote in the atlantic. thank you. at the top of the hour, very, very close from now. breaking news from ukraine. new discussions about russian oil for you. out russian oil for you. escriptions? just ask your cvs pharmacist. we search for savings for you. from coupons to lower costs options. plus, earn up to $50 extra bucks rewards each year just for filling at cvs pharmacy.
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