team from the hague starting to gather evidence whether vladimir putin is guilty of war crimes. that photograph, awful, of the family lying in the street dead, killed by russian bullets. it is the kind of thing that we are seeing because we still have international journalists there and journalists who were able to get them out. in russia they have a total news blackout. they're not seeing these kinds of pictures and we need russians to be able to see what is happening there because of the amount of disinformation that is happening in russia is a problem. if russians knew what was happening, perhaps there would be a bit more pressure on vladimir putin not to do this. >> mika, we are hearing one story after another of russians living in ukraine trying to explain to family members, to friends back home trying to explain what is going on and they're told, no, that would never happen, russia would never do that. the disinformation is

overwhelming. it is a regime, and we have known this, it is a regime built entirely on lies, lies they keep telling their own people. despite that fact, mika, people are still getting out in the street, protesting this war, despite the fact they know -- >> and getting arrested. >> -- they could be sent to prison for 15 years. >> french president macron again spoke to vladimir putin for nearly two hours yesterday and he asked him to stop fighting, to protect civilians and to send aid. russian forces violated a temporary cease-fire in the port city of mariupol yesterday, hampering evacuation with a barrage of shelling. ukrainian officials say russian shelling has hit critical infrastructure in the city which is desperately short on food, water and medicine. according to the red cross, around 200,000 people are trapped in the city. the situation in and around the capital of kyiv is no different.

at least eight civilians including, as joe mentioned, an entire family was killed by russian shelling yesterday. an advisor to president zelenskyy described the situation there as catastrophic. meanwhile, president zelenskyy is warning that moscow is trying to renew its push to take odesa, another key port city on the southern coast that would largely shut off ukraine from international shipping. this as a third round of talks between the two sides are scheduled to take place later today. according to the u.n., more than 300 civilians have been killed since the invasion began, but acknowledge that the toll could be much higher. moscow has consistently denied targeting civilians. >> just another clear lie. katty, they're firing rounds into one apartment building after another. one civilian target after another. they're gunning down -- we have journalists, we have seen

journalists from sky news who clearly identified themselves as journalists being shot at, their car filled with russian bullets and trying to escape even though a few of them got shot. this is clearly -- i mean i understand our government is going to have to be very tactful about this if they try to bring both sides together in peace at some point, but these are war crimes that are being committed. clearly war crimes. vladimir putin is a war criminal. sergey lavrov is a war criminal. everybody associated with this regime is a war criminal. they're doing the same thing here they have done in past attacks. i mean this looks far too much like what we've seen from vladimir putin and the russian government going back to grozny time and time again. they go in. they don't know how to fight a war conventionally. they stumble, look foolish, so then they start aiming at civilians and do what they did with grozny, just level it to the ground. >> grozny, '94.

aleppo, 2015, and we spee the consequences of it. boris johnson, so far the primary western leader to come out and say he is convinced there have been war crimes. obviously the white house doesn't want to say that, but with every atrocity that we see, an off ramp for vladimir putin gets harder. >> right. >> right. >> because how does he roback row back from what he is now doing. >> yeah, civilians, nuclear power plants. the labor party correctly going after boris johnson, who you talk about a very light touch on these russian oligarchs. when is the pressure in great britain going to rise so he's going to actually have to start being tough on russian oligarchs? >> i have been watching the british press. there was a big expose on sunday how boris johnson put pressure intentionally on the intelligence service to be easy on one of the oligarchs who he was naming for a peerage in the

uk. the problem is there is a time lag but we're going to sanction you but it is in three or four weeks. in the meantime, if you think you would like to go to the cayman islands, perhaps that's where you would like to shelter your money because in the uk there will be sanctions but it is not happening now. that's the loophole. a lot of this money is hidden in three complicated way through shell companies, shell companies that own shell companies. >> they could find it if the prime minister would let them go after it. >> they could find it if the prime minister would give them the resources to go after it. >> joining us now, chief correspondent richard engel. what can you tell us more about the area where the civilians were killed yesterday? >> reporter: we are right in the area at the moment. we are in the northwest section of kyiv, and down this road about two to three miles is the suburb that is a heavily

populated area just on the outskirts of kyiv. it is separated from the center of the city by a single bridge. just a few minutes ago we were further down this road at that bridge. the bridge was blown up by ukrainian forces and now russian troops are trying to occupy the center of the suburb. it is sending people running out of the city, except the bridge is blown up so they have to cross planks, two planks that go through the water, very slippery planks. we saw people who were being brought out in wheelchairs, some people were being carried fireman style over volunteer shoulders. some people are still coming out right now. a lot of them are traumatized. these people seem to be in good shape but we've seen people who have been breaking down, carrying their children, in some cases separated from other family members and, therefore, they're in true desperation. while this is happening, while

people are doing something of a reverse evacuation, they're evacuating the suburbs and not heading into the countryside. they're heading deep into the center of kyiv, hoping that there's some safety in numbers, safety with all of the buildings around. even as this is happening, the russians are continuing to bomb. we pulled back a little bit partly because they were bombing, partly because there was no communications up there. but for the last several hours people have been coming out of this area, out of this neighborhood, heading into the center of kyiv because as they're fleeing they are still under attack. we are talking about an area that is right on the door steps of the ukrainian capital. >> you know, richard, last night president zelenskyy gave another address to the ukrainian people, delivered his speech, and it can only be described as

churchillian, a description that is over used, but it was so inspiring. i thought the takeaway, still defiant, him telling the ukrainian people, we will not forgive and we will not forget. >> reporter: it was very much his, "we will fight them at the beaches" speech. >> yes. >> reporter: he said there can be no retreat, no surrender. if you don't have a weapon, still stand and fight because if you lose we lose everything, we lose the nation. it was his strongest speech yet, but he also was very critical of the west, saying they cannot wait any longer to impose a no-fly zone, or if the no-fly zone is too much because it could risk a direct confrontation between the united states and other nato countries with russia, then send planes. deals are now being worked out according to secretary of state blinken to have the eastern european countries send their soviet-era planes, planes that the ukrainian pilots already know how to fly, and for the

u.s. to back fill those aircraft by replacing them with u.s. fighter jets. that deal, however, as far as i understand is still in the works. while it is still in the works, the russians are using their air power, their artillery and their full military might to advance on kyiv and other cities. >> well, richard, it is so interesting, you are talking about the speech that sounded like "we'll fight them on the beach." you are talking in effect a land leash, you are talking about a besieged president being invaded with these phony grievances, trying to unite former members of an empire. it sounds so much like churchill in 1940 and through much of '41, begging fdr, begging the united states, begging the new world to become involved. you must be struck there on the ground by how much history is

rhyming here. >> it absolutely is. i had an opportunity to ask zelenskyy specifically how he's holding up with these comparisons to churchill, how is he holding up to the pressure of that -- of this historic moment while his city is under attack. he said that history will judge how he is doing, but he feels that he's doing the best he can to help his country. he said he hoped that the notoriety he is receiving right now will translate to something. he said it is great that people like me around the world and are talking about me around the world. maybe that brings more attention and maybe it brings the weapons, the planes, the no-fly zone that they are asking for. this, by the way, is the closest that the russians have gotten to kyiv, that they are making this advance and driving people from really the satellite cities deeper into the heart of town. but zelenskyy has been extremely visible.

he is giving speeches two, three, sometimes four times a day from his telegram channel, sometimes from his phone, from different locations. his presence has been something that is allowing ukrainians to feel confident that the government is still in charge, and people here are rallying behind him and they are rallying behind the troops. we were watching ukrainian troops helping out, helping people cross that foot bridge with their pets, with their only belongings, even as they were breaking down in tears and sometimes slipping and falling on to the ground. >> nbc's richard engel. thank you so much for your reporting live on the ground there. we are also getting a clearer picture on how this battle is playing out on the ground. "the new york times" is highlighting the tactical differences between both sides. ukrainian troops, quote, organized in small, nimble units that can sneak up on and ambush

the lumbering columns of russian tanks. one ukrainian officer says, quote, they have a lot of tanks, we have a lot of anti-tank weapons. in the open field it will be even. it is easier to fight in the city. a russian soldier told how he was attacked. my commander burned and died. i ran into the forest and later surrendered to local people. a war studies professor uses this map to illustrate an issue for russia as well, focusing on the red areas said to be controlled by russia. he argues that presence doesn't mean control. writing this, the populations remain resolutely ukrainian in their loyalties, providing evidence not only of their indignation about the russian occupation but warning how the lack of effective control could have deadly consequences for russian units if this turned into an insurgency. friedman writes about the

russian convoy that stalled on the way into kyiv. quote, this is no longer a convoy. it has not moved for days and is not going anywhere. it is full of vehicles that have broken down or been abandoned or attacked by ukrainian forces. the spectacle no longer conveys a menacing threat but instead epitomizes russia's poor planning and the limitation of its equipment. he writes ukraine is following a classic model for underdogs, avoiding big dogs in favor of attacks on supply lines. >> we have clint watts, a former infantryman, now a distinguished fellow at the research institute and national security analyst for nbc news and msnbc. clint, a line that really sticks out to me, i think i read it in "the times" a couple of days ago, was the ukrainian fighter saying, you know what? it is about even when we are fighting out here in the countryside, when we are fighting in the hills, when we

are fighting in the open, but when we go into the cities that's when it becomes easy. i am struck by some pictures i have seen of entire streets just filled with gutted russian tanks and russian equipment that went into an ambush and a siege. so ukrainians doing very well in pushing back, but this truly is -- if you look at the map, this truly is -- this is a story of two wars. one in the northern part where the russians are bogged down and doing terribly, and one in the southern part of the country where the russians seem to be far better and are expanding and consolidating, making gains every morning. >> that's right, joe. i kind of want to talk about where we left off last week on friday, where things have gone and where they might go but from the russian perspective. remember, we talked last week about kherson, they went from here to another bridge head with the goal to seal ukrainian off

from the sea. if they can do that, they've seen she'll crushed the ability for them to resupply from the south, taking control of all of these areas. we should start paying a little more attention to this area here. there's essentially a breakaway certificate there known as transnistria. that is ethnic russian populations. remember, vladimir putin will say i want to unite all russian people under my banner. by doing this he is essentially creating a corridor where he can link in and surround odesa. if he can take odesa he will have taken all of the prime beach front property that allows the country to get resupply. certain things about this as well. where the ukraine's bread basket, and much of the world, the wheat? it is here. if they seal this, by spring we have a major problem. we are talking about inflation around the world right now. we are mostly focused on oil. for other parts of the world a lot of the wheat comes from this area. this would be a major area that

the russians can seize. when does planting season start? usually about april to may. we could be looking at major shortfalls of wheat. egypt is one of the countries that takes a lot of wheat in here. it can create enormous ripple effects over time. the bigger picture though, i think the things to thinks about is in kherson and you are seeing protests in towns. you are seeing ukrainian fighters come back into different places in kherson and hit russian vehicles. it looks like the russians while making advances cannot secure the rear area. that goes to the bigger picture i think over time. >> clint, let me ask you about that. the professor earlier talked about mistakes they were making, just because they pass through an area doesn't mean they control it.

that's something that keeps going through my mind. you have a massive country, the size of 41 million, 42 million people. they're never, ever going to have the troops to hold this country down if these people want to be resistance fighters. that's not wishful thinking. they do not have enough troops. with every advance that they make -- and they don't make them very well -- you will have insurgencies coming up from behind in your rear, constantly coming after you. if you are looking at this about from the russian side of things, how in the world do you achieve your goals and hold this land? >> joe, they're not going to. invasion's easy compared to occupation, which is impossible. they don't have enough troops on the ground. they can't even resupply their existing invasion. they won't be able to sustain this. remember, the week one plan was a quick fight, get to kyiv, do a political coup. it seemed he was trying to essentially take out and topple the government, put in someone friendly to moscow.

that failed. the long-run plan for this, how would you deal with an insurgency over time and occupy this? they don't have anyone to hand off to inside the country. if you watch what they're doing now, they're reverting to total war. here, mariupol, we just talked about it earlier. that is a humanitarian disaster right now. they're killing civilians. they're not living up to their promises. also here in kharkiv, kharkiv we have massive air battles and the russians are losing aircraft consistently. this is the point to small units in the ukrainian forces using anti-aircraft fire. then here inside kyiv, that area where richard engel was essentially out in this direction right here, this area right here, the ukrainians are tearing up russian columns, between anti-tank fire, just using basic foot-mounted tactics. the russians are not supporting armor columns with infantry soldiers which means they are just sitting ducks repeatedly.

if you expand back out of this and look, they're trying to essentially seize this area, i think that the russians, if they can't really envelope this area within a week are in deep trouble. now we are talking about resupply, aircraft, anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons coming more into the country. this is going to be a long, long battle, and i don't see how the russian army sustains it, especially when the people back home who are getting fed nonstop disinformation start to realize their sons don't come home. there's no way over time that disinformation can overtake reality when maybe 10,000 russian soldiers don't even come back home. >> you know, we sit here, clint, we wonder how any leader in 2022 could do this, how vladimir putin is making a break from the rest of world leadership. you wonder why he's willing to sacrifice his economy, why he's willing to sacrifice everything for this brutish early 20th century-type warfare. i want to read you something

that was written about moscow. moscow's bid for world leadership is one dimensional, relying exclusively on the might of military power. the other elements of great power status, economic capacity, technological innovation and ideological appeal have always proven beyond the kremlin's mastery. that was written by dr. brzezinski about the old soviet union in the early 1980s. >> wow. >> and here we are 40 years later and so much of what he says, their insecurity -- he is talking about the soviet's insecurity, their desire to take every piece of property they can moving west because of their insecurity, it is so applicable here. what we're facing here is not some new tyrant. we are facing the old soviet union. >> another factor, joe, is they are out of the economy in many

ways starting last week and they're out of the information world. over the weekend you saw many internet provider, service providers start to pull back, even tiktok has now gone in and said no more russian content. that's going to have a massive effect on the russian population. if there's any force i would say to watch over this week, is there's been a significant pickup in the cyber war and it is not what everyone predicted. you have anonymous doing cyberattacks against russian government, military websites, those sorts of things. you have streaming services going down inside russia, which means those signals are now coming into the russian people. i would add that the more russia is cut off from the internet, while that puts pressure internally, the less russia has to lose on the internet as well. so cyberattacks, i would start to worry about considerably as things go on. we saw some news last night about outages, satellite related in germany, no one can pin down who the actor was, but the cyber space, i think the cyber war is going to heat up. the last part that you know, russia's in trouble is disinfo.

they're throwing everything at the war, the fire hose, the falsehoods, lavrov, putin, all of the state media and all of the fringe media kicking in heavy with crazy stories about biolabs, a laptop showing up with secret plans from nato. all of these things are textbook. disinformation is mad lib. all you do is change the words in between and russia is using all of the old playbooks and it is not working, at least outside russia. >> they're had phones for a while now and i don't think they're going to like being cut off from the world. >> like we've been saying for weeks, it is 2022. he can't win. speaking of anonymous, he can't win on this disinformation campaign. they're being obliterated by the ukrainians. you know, it is so interesting. one of my kids said, i'm in a new world here. i go to school and for the first time in school we're all on the same side. >> yeah. >> and said that this one person

who i won't identify his ideology, but i found this to be amazing. this kid starts telling the sunflower story, the sunflower seed story of the old lady that gives the sunflowers to the russian soldiers in first days of the war and saying, here, take these. after you are killed and in the soil, at least sunflowers will grow. >> to the russian soldier. >> i find that remarkable that that story makes it from, you know, ukraine to a middle school in florida and all over the world. they destroy the russians on misinformation and then, as clint said, anonymous. how do you stop the truth getting to your people when anonymous keeps breaking in on russia's top streaming services, top tv stations, and showing the horrors of the war and saying,

this is what is happening while your government is lying to you. >> yeah, and even some of the russian, more liberal stations, independent stations that have been shut down, what they've done is gone to youtube. they're saying we're getting millions of hits on youtube, and critical will be all of those soldiers in ukraine who have phones themselves, who are broadcasting back to their mothers. it was russian mothers during the afghan war that put a huge amount of pressure on the soviet government because their sons were coming back in body bags. it was the cops of it, of course, 15,000 russian soldiers died during the afghan war. >> and what are ukrainians do? >> handing them phones, call your mom, call your friends. there's dispute whether the ukrainians should be allowed to do that because when you have a prisoner of war, are you allowed to do that? but, gosh, is it effective because they're getting the message to the mothers. still ahead on "morning joe," russia is warning nato about providing fighter jets to

ukraine. we will talk about that new threat. we will be joined by a member of the ukrainian parliament as russia escalates the conflict by targeting and killing civilians. plus, will u.s. lawmakers move to ban russian oil? you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. we gotta tell people that liberty mutual customizes car insurance so you only pay for what you need, and we gotta do it fast. [limu emu squawks] woo! new personal record, limu! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ "how bizarre" by omc ♪ no annual fee on any discover card. ♪ ♪

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if, for instance, the polish government, a nato member wants to send fighter jets, does it get a green light from the u.s. or are you afraid that will escalate tension? >> no, that gets a green light. in fact, we are talking with our polish friends right now about what we might be able to do to back fill their needs if, in fact, they choose to provide these fighter jets to the ukrainians. all of us together are continuing to take steps to increase the pressure on russia

through additional sanctions as well as taking further steps to give the ukrainians what they need to defend themselves against the russian aggression. >> u.s. secretary of state blinken speaking about a potential three-way deal between the u.s., poland and ukraine for fighter jets. president zelenskyy is pleading with western leaders to send fighter jets to his country, reportedly pleading with members of congress to do so on a video call on saturday. in response, the kremlin is warning nato allies against providing those fighter jets to ukraine. speaking yesterday, russia's defense minister said that doing so could be viewed as involvement in the armed conflict. let's bring in former nato supreme allied commander retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis, chief analyst and security for nbc news and msnbc. member of ukrainian parliament.

innna sovsun. >> then putting troops on the ground was an act of war and now supplying aircraft is an act of wear. pretty soon wearing a new york jets sweat shirt will be described by lavrov as being an act of war. the fact is this is so laughable, the soviet union and russia have fought sonia isabelle proxy wars against us their weapons have killed so many american troops through the years, whether it was in korea or whether it was in vietnam or whether it was in central america. you name the place, soviet armor meant went there and killed young american boys. they can't change the rules of engagement in the middle of this war. i must say at some point if

vladimir putin is declaring everything an act of war, then nothing is an act of war. >> i think we're moving in that direction. i want to say that both mika and i are wearing the colors of ukraine this morning. so we'll probably end up in the same cell block. >> every day. >> i'm not too worried about it. i am not worried a bit about this potential deal to get jets. i think it is smart. i think it is entirely consistent with international law and diplomacy. the way it would work is quite simple. we would encourage our polish friends to move these jets over to our ukrainian friends. the ukrainians have skilled pilots who can fly these mig 29s. they would be very powerful in a tactical environment. we, the united states, would back fill our polish allies with f-16 jets. nice movement of capable combat

power to help alleviate this disastrous, terrible, immoral series of war crimes that we are seeing in ukraine. i think this makes enormous sense. i hope it happens today. >> well, again, just for historical context, this is exactly what we did with britain from the late -- late 1940 all the way until december '41 when we were in the war, right. it was called lend/lease. it was how we stayed out of the war but still helped our british allies. >> exactly right, joe. it is appeased with continuing the flow of anti-armor. you heard from clint last block how that capability is unfolding on the battlefield against these russian troop columns. hey, i will give you a little history, not to go all john meacham here, but think about the american revolution. who is playing the part of the red coats and who is playing the

part of the minute men? i like our tactics. i like the ukrainian tactics, taking on those big, standing formations with anti-tanks and then sliding back into the forest. boy, it looks a lot like american minute men. that's a pretty good heritage to take into combat. >> all right. i want to know turn to innna sovsun and ask first of all how you are doing, how your colleagues are doing and what is needed? what are you seeing at this point? >> well, i am -- first of all i want to thank the presenter for wearing ukrainian flag clothes. that is extremely touching. i can't do that right now because i don't have majority of my clothes with me because i am staying with my friends' place. i only have as much supply as i could get with myself. i am extremely happy to hear what i am hearing right now. this deal that i hope will happen with helping ukraine get protection from the air is so

extremely needed. i spent the day yesterday helping evacuate some of my friends to western ukraine. they didn't have a car, their husbands, boyfriends left for the military and i just promised i would take them back to safety. i was initially planning to take them to a city where just an hour before we were supposed to get there the russians bombed the airport there. it was like two kilometers from where we were supposed to be driving. so that is now getting extremely scary. the russians are bombing cities in different parts of ukraine. so there is hardly any place in ukraine where anyone can feel safe. the situation in cities of kharkiv and mariupol is just the worst. it is a humanitarian disaster. yesterday they bombed a small town in northwestern ukraine just randomly, just to make sure everyone is so scared of them and everyone is willing to

surrender. in that raid they killed one person and a 3-year-old child was left without one leg. i as a mother, i just can't imagine the pain of the parents who -- who are experiencing that. so this is the relative we are in, and this is why this support from air is so very much needed, because what russians are doing with those attacks from air is just terrifying. i am ready to say that ukrainian army is completely willing and able of fighting on the ground, but it is extremely difficult when at the same time they have to evacuate civilians from those airstrikes and fight the russians. so that's what they're doing to my country right now. it pains me to see, and that is why i so much hope that this deal with the provision of fighter jets to the ukrainian pilots will work out. i have confidence in our pilots. we have one pilot who is now called the ghost of kyiv who has shot down more than 30 russian

planes. they ask you for, they will be able to do this. what we are asking for is just please provide us with this so we can save our children and then fight the russians back on the ground. >> ms. sovsun, one of the things that's held up the delivery of planes to ukraine is nato is clearly concerned about the war spreading beyond ukraine's border. in interviews you already said that's going to happen, that nato shouldn't fool itself it can be contained to the country, the territorial country of ukraine. can you explain why you think nato might be misreading russia here? >> well, let's look at it this way. putin already said that he doesn't like poland and hungary, nato. we do remember the weeks leading to the war he was making statements that he doesn't just want ukraine to claim its neutrality, even though that is a lie because he attacked us in 2014 when we were officially a neutral state. so this is just a bogus argument he is making up.

but at the same time he was also saying he wants nato to return to its borders prior to 20 years before. that means that he wants poland out of nato, that he wants hungary out of nato, that he wants the baltic states out of nato. that's why those countries are now so extremely concerned and supportive of ukraine's effort to fight back against that. the worst case scenario, he devastates the line of ukraine and i kills everyone in here and gets close to eastern border of poland. we have to understand that he will go in there. he is crazy enough to do that. so what we're asking to do now is just help us fight him on our territory. we do already have a war here. we are just asking to avoid many casualties that can proceed further because he will not stop. there is nothing to stop him. he is completely out of his mind. he has nothing left that is human in him and he will go further if he is not stopped here. >> ukrainian member of

parliament, innna sovsun, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. joe, to her point about potentially going into poland or something else, he is crazy enough to do that, innna says. at this point he keeps moving the goalpost. he keeps saying things, starting out crazy but going beyond. >> yeah. this morning i started by quoting dr. brzezinski from a book i picked up off of our book shelf yesterday before i got on the plane. i'm struck. we -- i won't put you in this category, but most of us have looked at putin as some break from history, especially in 2022. i'm reading dr. brzezinski's words from 1983. it could be from 1953. what he describes in the soviet state is identical to what we're seeing from vladimir putin here. i just want to read you this one part and ask how we deal with

it. he talks about it is a negative -- it is a major disruptor, it is an organically expansionist, one-dimensional military power lacking the capacity to effect a genuine revolution in the world system. the soviet union is confined to an essentially negative role of disrupter of wider and more cooperative international arrangements. as i just heard the ukrainian parliamentarian say that vladimir putin is not going to be satisfied with ukraine. he is not going to be satisfied -- it is something that dr. brzezinski keeps saying. if you keep the status quo on the global stage, russia is the looser because the united states will always dominate in that situation. so i'm wondering, knowing the soviets as you have known the soviets, seeing what vladimir putin has done over the past 20 years, is she -- is president

zelenskyy correct, after ukraine he will be ready to go for latvia or estonia or another country after ukraine? >> first, is vladimir putin a break from history? absolutely not. we don't need to stop with the 1950s. go back to ivan the terrible and peter the great. look at the russian czars in the 18th and 19th century. russia has always sought to expand on this massive eurasian land mass. this is very consistent with russian behavior. what should we do about it knowing that there is this proclivity in the mind of russia, if you will? we need alliances. in particular, our european ally

and friends are small individual powers but who when bound together in something called nato become an instrument of immense power. by the way, sometimes i think people tend to equate russian military capability with nato military capability. that is an absurd comparison. we out spend russia, we -- nato -- 15 to 1. by the way, the european defense budget when you aggregate it is 300 billion. the defense budget of russia is 70 billion. the europeans out spend the russians massively, and they have real troops who have gone to afghanistan, who are blooded and have fought. we out number them three to four to one in troops. we out number them in combat aircraft.

you get the idea. bottom line, i don't think that putin as the alliance stands together would cross a nato border in anger. but the parliamentarian is exactly right. we should fight in ukraine as in support the ukrainians who are more than willing to take this fight to the russians, in the air, on the seas, and on the land. >> retired admiral james stavridis. thank you very much once again. coming up, u.s. lawmakers are demanding a ban on russian crude oil to further punish moscow over the invasion of ukraine, but the move risks even higher prices at the pump which are already at their highest level since 2008. our coverage continues with steve rattner joining us next with charts on "morning joe."

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i spoke to the president and the cabinet, the leading members of the cabinet about this just yesterday from europe, and we are now in very active discussions with our european partners about banning the import of russian oil to our countries while, of course, at the same time maintaining a steady global supply of oil. >> at 48 past the hour we continue our coverage of the breaking news of the russian invasion of ukraine. the biden administration is actively discussing the ally -- with the allies the possibility of banning russian oil imports. the white house is weighing the potential fall-out from such a move as gas prices near record highs, but senator joe manchin of west virginia argues the u.s. should lead even if americans shoulder the burden.

>> i believe -- and i would say this, the people in my state of west virginia believe it is basically foolish for us to keep buying products and giving profits and money to putin to use against the ukrainian people. that's exactly what he is doing. why wouldn't we leave? why wouldn't we show the resolve we have? i understand there's oil dependency in the world. here is the problem. we have the ability to ratchet up and be able to back fill. we have the energy, we have the resources here, we have the technology. we are a million barrels short a day we could ramp up like that. we can do certain things and we don't are to put more pain on the american people than they are suffering from inflation now, but i believe the american people would basically pay if they had to seeing as they're saving freedom and lives of innocent people. >> joining us here in washington, former national security advisor during the george w. bush administration, steven hadley. in new york, former treasury official, "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. and white house bureau chief at

"politico", jonathan lemire, also the host of "way too early." >> we'll get to russian oil in a minute but i saw steve hadley outside. national former security analysts make me uneasy. >> glad to have you. >> you have to share with us, how did that meeting go? >> i had him into the national security advisors office. we had a very nice chat, and he was unfamiliar with the seat in which he was sitting. >> okay. >> he's usually sitting in the seat i was sitting. >> right, he's in charge. >> he was in a different seat. he went to put his coffee cup on the table and he spilled coffee on the carpet, and he was deeply humiliated. i told him it was his office and he could do whatever you wanted. >> it was very kind of you. >> and, by the way, he believed you. >> you're right actually. >> you said something interesting. i was talking about some things

i read from an '83 essay of his. you had a wonderful description of putin's mindset and why he's doing what he is doing and the fact it has nothing to do with nato. it has nothing to do with all of the other things we are hearing about. explain from your understanding what this is about. >> you know, dr. brzezinski said years ago that the key things is russia without ukraine cannot be an empire, and putin understands that completely. what this is about is not about nato enlargement, it is not about missile defenses in europe. it is about a vision that putin has had and has been nursing since 2007 and onward, about getting a pro-russian government in ukraine that will stop moving towards the west, that will bring ukraine back under a russian sphere of influence and probably into a confederation with belarus and russian and ukraine. that confederation at the heart

of a russian sphere of influence in the former soviet space is a return of the russian empire. >> uh-huh. >> that's really what putin is all about. >> and, again, you made a distinction, not the soviet empire. >> no. >> but the russian empire. mika's brother was interviewed and he was talking about the importance of kyiv and odesa because those were czarist capitals. james stavridis said the same thing, you don't have to look back to the soviet union. go back to some of the czars to understand how putin is thinking. >> right. he also in a conversation he had with condi rice, he said that russia has only been great when it has been under a strong leader. what was his definition of strong leaders? peter the great, catherine the great, ivan the terrible and joseph stalin. that's the tradition in which he, i think, sees himself as the great restorer of the russian empire. that's really what this is about. >> well -- >> and mika, of course, stalin

killed 3 million to 4 million ukrainians from '32 to '33 with a forced famine which, of course, might help explain why the ukrainians are in no hurry to surrender to putin and russia. >> well, given the tradition he comes from, that you pointed out, he does appear to be moving the goalpost at every angle here, now on the fighter jets saying that would be us engaging, nato engaging. from your years of watching putin and his incursions in the past, is his behavior different this time around? are his reactions different? >> you know, it was very interesting because president macron after his long meeting with putin came out and said that this is a different putin than he's been used to dealing with. i think you see this, you know, this isolated figure at one end of a 50-foot table with his

national security team on the other end of it, being used basically as props, not as advisers. he has -- we know he has had about two years where he has been in complete isolation. >> yes. >> and i think it has had an effect. >> covid. >> macron says, this is a different putin than i have known. you know, it is a time when he's been isolated and able to nurse this great grievance he has about ukraine. you saw it in the july paper he put out on the historic ties between russia and ukraine. you saw it in that extraordinary monday night speech before he ordered the invasion, which is a very interesting speech because the back part looks like it was written by his foreign minister, it is all about nato enlargement, the nato expansion. the front part is all about ukraine and the historical

relationship between russia and ukraine. >> the timing you can see. i don't know if it is possible now because of atrocities being committed, would that suggest he was going to stop -- the member of parliament from kyiv was just saying to us, no, he wants all of -- other bits of nato, too. do you think that means it is just about ukraine, would he have stopped at ukraine? >> you know, you never know. you know, i remember i woke up at 4:30 in the morning some day last week thinking about the line, and at the time he got it through the munich agreement he said, this completes my territorial ambitions in europe. of course, that was not the case. we don't know. the kinds of scenarios you worry about, for example, an area

separated from russia by poland and lithuania. does he decide if he reconstitutes the russian empire, does he decide that it needs to be connected up with mother russia? that means punching a corridor over polish and lithuanian territories. members of nato, that invokes article 5, raises the issue of a confrontation if not war between russia and nato. serious business. >> yeah. i think we both woke up at the same time thinking about it. you can't help but look at the parallels. you know, putin saying, we're just going to get russian speakers. >> right. >> and they belong back with the mother country, and the ukrainians warning us, much as we were warned time and again in '38, going into '39. so a lot of difficult questions. >> you said something very

important. you know, people talk about putin saying that the dissolution of the soviet union was the great tragedy of the 20th century, but he went on to say because it left hundreds of thousands of russians outside mother russia. >> right. >> you look at that and you say kalingrad. you look at the populations of estonia and latvia that are russian speaking. one of things you ask, will he do the kind of thing there he did in donbas, get them to agitate, get those russians to say they're subject to discrimination if not genocide by the people of latvia and estonia, and then they call on support and help from mother russia. you know, you worry about these things given the mindset that putin has. >> those russians in latvia and estonia are seeing the picture of ukraine and it may change the calculation of russian speakers. >> steven hadley, stay with us.

we appreciate your context and insight as we follow the developing story. when we come back at the top of the hour we will talk more about the russian invasion of ukraine and the concept of banning russian oil imports. we will be right back with steve rattner. ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ hey, i get it, commitment can be scary. but not when you're saving up to 15% with subscribe and save at amazon. you get free repeat delivery on your favorite items

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♪♪ live look at the white house. the sun has come up over washington. it is the top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, march 7th. the bbc's katty kay and former national security adviser steven hadley are still with us. let's get everyone caught up with the overnight developments in what is now day 12 of the russian invasion of ukraine. after violating two cease-fire attempts over the weekend, russia says its military will hold its fire this morning and open humanitarian corridors to allow civilians to evacuate. but ukraine's deputy prime

minister rejected that offer as unacceptable and proposed her own routes, saying ukrainians will travel west and not to belarus or russia. ukrainian officials say russian shelling has hit critical infrastructure in the city, which is desperately short on food, water and medicine. according to the red cross, around 200,000 people are trapped in the city. the situation in and around the capital of kyiv is no different. at least eight civilians including a family were killed by russian shelling yesterday. an advisor to president zelenskyy described the city there as catastrophic. meanwhile, president zelenskyy is warning that moscow is trying the renew its push to take odesa, another key port city on the southern coast that would largely shut off ukraine from international shipping. almost 1.5 million people have fled ukraine in the wake of the

violence, with many attempting still to journey out. the united nations describes the movement as the fastest and largest displacement in europe since world war ii, yet some citizens remain trapped in war-torn cities. joining us from ukraine, erin mclaughlin. she spoke with a woman currently trapped in sumy, about 18 miles from the russian border, about her experience. erin, tell us about her. >> reporter: hey, mika. this morning ukrainian officials are accusing russia of setting up propaganda corridors, not humanitarian corridors, rejecting russia's offer to evacuate citizens to russia and belarus. i have been speaking all morning to people in these hard-hit areas. they're describing devastating situations. i was speaking to a woman named iryna. she is trapped in sumy. she went to visit her mother and

grandmother, then the war broke out. she woke up surrounded by russian forces. take a listen to what she had to say. >> the reality changed. it changed so fast that you cannot still accept it. we were thinking a lot of times about going out from the city, but it is too dangerous and it is getting more dangerous every day, but i can't force my mom to leave the house, i cannot force my granny. she wants to stay here. i have only one choice if i will take the risk of leaving the city to leave them here, but how can i leave them here? like it is hard, it is hard to make this kind of decision. so now we don't know what to do. we just hope for the best but getting ready for the worst. we're just hoping for the best. sorry for crying, but it is

complicated. anyway -- >> reporter: what else can you do? >> i don't know. we can -- the situation will even get worse, of course, we will have no choice as to try to leave the city but it is still very dangerous. >> reporter: i was speaking to another woman who managed to escape the hard-hit city to the south. she described how there was intense russian shelling day and night. she was crouched with five other people in the basement, a place so small she had to sleep standing up. they had no food, no water, no electricity and ultimately no choice but to make a run for it. they got in the car and drove off, leaving her neighbors behind. she says she hasn't heard from them since. there are thousands of people right now in these desperate situations, mika. >> nbc's erin mclaughlin. thank you so much. mastercard and visa said

they would suspend operations in russia in protest of the invasion of ukraine. the move will prevent mastercards and visa cards issued by russian banks from working in other countries. it also will block cards from working in russia. however, consumers will be able to use those issued by russian banks for domestic transactions because they're handled by a local processor owned by the country's central bank. those cards are expected to continue to work until they expire. >> meanwhile, world leaders and lawmakers debate whether to ban russian oil. we have steve rat any, john that jonathan lemire with us for that. jonathan, this weekend jen psaki was defending the administration's position on oil. it sounded as if there's a bit of a reluctance to move as aggressively to a complete ban

of russian oil by increasing production in the united states. what can you tell us about their position of this idea gaining bipartisan support on the hill? >> it seems like the white house is heading in that direction. they were, indeed, reluctant at first. this is something they wanted to avoid obviously. they are keenly aware gas prices are already up, inflation is a major political concern here in the united states. consumer prices, we talked about it nearly every day, prices are so high. this is something that at least initially they didn't want to do but they can see the tea leaves here. they see there's bipartisan support, republicans and democrats alike. we saw on the sunday shows almost a unanimity to doing this. secretary of state blinken said yesterday it sort of tipped their hand, it is something they're actively considering and coordinating with european allies and potentially the u.s. may act on its own to do it even if europe doesn't, or at least right away. this is the latest front in the

politics of the war. >> steve, we will get to your charts in a second. i want to ask you a quick question about oil production. jen psaki made a point u.s. oil production is near record highs but as you and i both know there's still more oil production out there, still more can be done. obviously that's a political problem for joe biden, a political problem for democrats. but here we are, again, in war footing watching the ukrainians fight for their very survival. for those who were saying we need to amp up oil production, how much of a difference would that make? >> joe, look, we can -- over some period of time, yes, we can amp up oil production by some amount but we're not going to amp up oil production tomorrow to deal with the issue. the u.s. is and always has been, frankly, producing all the oil that is available to be produced at any given moment. in other words there aren't wells just sitting there not being pumped because people don't feel like pumping them. you have to go out and drill for it.

that takes time. you are talking about months, potentially years. as we will get to in the charts in a second i will show you how small of a difference that's likely to make in the context of a huge world global oil market. >> well, how about venezuela? obviously we rightly have problems with venezuela's government, we have for some time, but apparently they have the same type of oil that can be used in gulf coast refineries. how much of a difference could that make? what about the possibility of joe biden going to saudi arabia? again, not a great political choice, but guess what? we don't have a lot of great political choices. we are staring down the barrel of, you know, a possibility of world war iii and there's just some things that we're going to have to do that aren't going to be politically expedient for anybody. but let's say we started working with saudi arabia and venezuela tomorrow to aggressively

increase the amount of oil that's put out on the world markets, what kind of difference does that make? >> again, joe, and i can take you through the charts and i will show you what we are talking about, but it would make a relatively small difference. yes, we could bring in a million, 2 million barrels a day of venezuelan oil. there's a big question how much more production the saudis have. they have always claimed they have more but when they're supposed to produce more they don't seem to do it, so there's a question about how much there is there. but you are talking about replacing a major, major part of the oil's oil supply. >> right. >> russia is the third largest oil producer in the world, the largest exporter in the world. about 11% of the world's oil supply. if you don't replay all of that, you are going to get a major impact on prices, which you are already getting. can i just show you that on our charts? >> i was going to say, steve, i was going to ask you about the major league labor dispute but

you want to show me the charts. >> i'm going to save us both a thousand words and show you a picture. so if you look at the chart on the left, you can see the total world oil supply is about 94 million barrels a day. as i said, russia, which is the turquoise color, is the third largest oil producer in the world and the largest world exporter. 11% of the world ease oil supply. you have to find yourself something like 10 million barrels a day of oil to replace that oil supply, and the saudis -- maybe it is a million or two. the venezuelans, maybe it is a couple of million. the u.s. at the moment it is zero. we are producing everything we can produce in the short run. if you look at the chart on the right, what you can see is before the ukrainian thing oil prices were rising. they went down during the pandemic, which is the gray bar on the left, but they've been climbing steadily since then because the world is short of oil. before ukraine the world was short of oil and prices were headed up. of course, you can see on the right how they spiked after the russians invaded ukraine.

it is not so simple to replace this oil. if the russian oil were band you would see oil prices skyrocket. ironically oil prices went up something like 6% in crude oil. that's more than 5 cents a gallon on gasoline just right now, just from the talk about this. let's turn to the u.s. side and see what this means for the u.s. because it is a very different picture. we could do something on our own. we just -- the world can't do it. if you look at the u.s. on the left, we still do import a significant amount of oil, but only .4 of a percent, .4 of a percent of our oil imports from russian, roughly 1% of russian oil comes here. it is a tiny amount, less than 100,000 barrels a day. the good news for us is on the right side of the page we've become for the first time since the late 1940s a net exporter of oil and oil products. in other words we import some crude oil and refine it and export it. the rest of the world, a

different picture. let me say one word about natural gas, which is another thing that obviously has been much talked about. again, you will see a very significant contrast between our situation and the european situation. we are the world's largest producer of natural gas. you can see it on the left. we export 33% of our natural gas in liquified form to other parts of the world. but the uk and the eu import the vast majority of their natural gas, and continental europe in particular imports it from russia. the consequence of that, if you look at the chart on the right, is that european natural gas prices, what europeans pay to heat their homes and pay for electricity that's generated by natural gas is ten times, ten times what we pay for natural gas in this country. that's why the europeans are very reluctant to ban natural gas. so you hear a lot of this talk and i wish people could get realistic and understand the facts, but the facts are that russian oil is central to the

world's oil supply. you want to ban it, fine. you are going to see oil prices go to $150 to $200 a barrel to who knows where, and that's the problem we all face. >> let me ask you about fast tracking l & g facilities in the united states, if biden announced we are going to fast track two, three, four l & g facilities, what difference would it make on the natural gas price? >> we should do all of these things. the europeans, germany finally after resisting this is going to put some l & g facilities in on their end to receive the natural gas. over time all of this can make a difference. this is maybe a little bit like the wake-up call with respect to trading with china, that you have to have supply lines you can depend on. over time it may well move the world toward more independence from russia on both gas and on oil but it takes time. permitting and building a natural gas facility in this country probably takes five years or something like that. it is not going to make a difference in the short run. look, it is great that the biden

administration has recognized that energy security is a global issue, not just a u.s. issue and is trying to do these things. >> but, steve, because of the situation that we're in, why can't we fast track those facilities so it doesn't take five years? >> sure, we can fast track them i think, but you have -- these are very big, complicated, multi-billion dollar capital expenditure projects. again, it is not going to happen in the context of days, weeks, months that we're talking about the ukraine problem. it is a long-term solution to the world's problem but it is not a short-term solution, no matter how much fast tracking we try to do. >> right. >> i'm just being honest with you. i'm telling you what is really the situation out there. >> steve, thank you so much for getting the chart. it made a big difference in my day. >> it really has. >> steve, let me ask you about energy and energy independence and what sort of difference it would make. i'm sure you heard a lot of people saying we need to do more of this, more of that, but as

steve rattner just explained you can't snap your fingers and have it happen overnight. long term what does the united states need to do? >> the biggest thing we need to do is get the russians off russian oil and gas. we have known it was going to be a problem for 20 years. >> yeah. >> it has been an issue -- >> it has always been there. >> -- that presidents have talked about. it was one of the differing points between various administrations and angela merkel. i think europe has really got to decide that this is a vulnerability, a strategic vulnerability they can't have and get less dependent. poland has done a good job of doing that. part is nuclear, part is l & g that you can get gas from other places. look, there are things we have to do to deal with the ukraine

problem and then there are other things we need to do and we need to start it now. >> i want to show you what is going on in russia. thousands of brave russians were in the streets yesterday protesting the war in ukraine despite the threat of lengthy prison sentences. russian police say more than 3,000 people were arrested across the country. that's the most since the war started. an activist group in russia says there were arrests in nearly50 cities. meanwhile, the russian government has cut off internet access to independent and western media. it has always blocked facebook and twitter. on friday putin signed a so-called fake news law for reporting in russia about the war. it carries a prison sentence of up to 15 years. netflix and tiktok are the latest companies to suspend their services in russia in response to the state-sponsored censorship. so going to bring in former u.s. ambassador to russia, now the director of institute for international studies at

stanford and nbc news international affairs analyst, michael mcfaul. >> mr. ambassador, we were talking earlier about how vladimir putin's moving to shut down independent press, but, as katty kay said, they're now moving to youtube, getting millions of hits. you are having anonymous breaking in to russian tv channels, to services there showing ghastly images from the war. vladimir putin still thinks it is 198. it is not. what is going to be the long-term impact of them continuing to lie to their population when their population is starting the receive more and more information from the front lines, even in the form of ukrainians handing telephones to russian captives and telling them they can call their moms? >> joe, you're right. it is not 1981, that's the good news. some of the things he is trying to do though are worse than

1981. so i'm worried a lot of western journalists and media outlets are leaving, bbc, some already have. remember, even during the cold war all of those people worked in the soviet union. but it will be harder to do because of technology. people are smarter. there are vpns, companies like jigsaw, a part of the alphabet family, has developed some new techniques to get around these things. media has moved to, you know, the baltic states abroad. they're finding creative ways to do things. one even creative thing some people are doing right now is they're going on to restaurant websites and where it says give me your recommendation, they are writing stop this war, you know, in russia, people abroad. there's lots of creative things to do. the simple way to think about this is, you know, russian society is pretty divided electorally. not that different than our country, by the way. the more rural place you live,

the less money you have, the less educated you are, the more likely you are to support president putin and listen to his propaganda. the richer you are, the more educated you are, the more urban you are, the less likely you are, you get it from media. that's been true for a long time and it has been exacerbated because of this horrific war. that's why you see the young people from testing. you don't see a lot of babushkas protesting. >> no, you don't. steven hadley, what do you make of what is going on inside russia and then pull back? what concerns you the most as this conflict deep ens? >> well, what you would like to see is the disaffection among the russian population with this war. there have been demonstrations in a lot of cities. they have been though in the hundreds and the few thousands. they haven't been in the ten thousands or the hundred thousands and that makes a big

difference. you know, the country is pretty locked down. i think it is great, but there's polling that suggests, in fact, putin's popularity has gone up since his invasion of ukraine. the second question you look at is division within elites and those oligarchs who support putin. at some point they decide that putin has taken the country in a bad direction -- >> are we hearing of any? >> not at the moment. not at the moment. you know, as you saw when putin had his meeting with his so-called national security cabinet, he's got them pretty intimidated. >> jonathan lemire has a question for ambassador mcfaul. jonathan. >> i want to get your latest sense as to how long putin can hold off the forces at home. we are seeing the economy crumble there. we are seeing some members of the oligarch community being willing to speak out, at least a

little bit against them. we have seen the crackdown on media. he is concerned about the pressure. someone said to me, though you would never predict that putin would lose power, this is perhaps the most vulnerable he has ever been. what is your assessment of that? how long can he keep this going if the war continues to be a slog? >> i don't know and nobody knows. you know, i wrote once before revolutions they seem impossible. afterwards they seem inevitable. so we need to be careful and humble about predicting such things, but just to add to a few things steve said. i'm in touch with lots of russians through intermediaries. it is too dangerous for people to talk to me directly obviously. i think the splits in the elites is the key variable here. from what i understand, nobody supports this war, and we keep using the word oligarchs but it is not just the oligarchs. it is those that run the state on enterprises, it is the generals. this is a stupid war and people that can see it understand that.

i think we need to be more proactive in giving those people incentives to defect. i think we have to be much smarter about that. think about this. if the head of the central bank, i know her and her name. think if she came out and said, this is a horrible war, i'm resigning and we gave her incentives to leave, that would have a giant psychological impact on russia. i know. there's no way she supports this war. the head of sberbank, the largest bank in russia, there's no way he supports this idiotic, horrible war. we need to provide incentives for those people to deeffect. i would say the same thing on the battlefield inside ukraine. you know, send out messaging saying, "x amount of money and safety if you defect." we need splits in the elite. that will have a cascade effect if we could get some of the top

people to resign. >> but how? >> ambassador mcfaul, i wanted to go back and underline something you said. steve hadley was agreeing here. when people ask can vladimir putin survive, we don't know. nobody really knows. you can be back and read a lot of articles from 1987, 1988, 1989 where people were talking about how we were going to be locked in armed conflict with the old soviet union for, you know, the next 50 years, and then the iron curtain collapsed in '89. it is impossible to say, isn't it? >> it is impossible to safety we just need to be careful, you know, predicting with authority thing on revolutions is hard to do. to me there's another analogy. we have used a lot of analogies talking over the last couple of weeks. obviously the invasion itself feels like september 1st, 1939, to me in poland. remember, we all thought that was going to be a small war. we didn't -- you know, we don't

know what -- if you read the press from september 1939, they were not predicting what was going to happen later. there's another analogy i think is important. that's milosevic. milosevic was pretty popular. his wars abroad were pretty popular, and then one day he met a foe, us, that initially made him very popular. our bombing -- by the way, we did bomb even the capital city of belgrade in 1999 to stop what he was doing in terms of ethnic cleansing. initially he was very popular. a year and a half, he was overthrown. october 2000. now, putin is a lot stronger than milosevic and we're not going to bomb russia, right. those are two variables that are very different, but i just remind you of that because the polling numbers can be very volatile when people look at stupid, rye dig lus wars.

i'm sure everybody i know thinks that putin has overreached. it is a tragedy, not a smart war. when that translates into volatility in terms of support publicly, hard to know. but i think the splits of the elites is the key thing to look for. not just to look for and sit on our hands, but to try to do something about it. >> steven, we are at day 12. throw it forward for us because it seems we are at a pivotal moment. the russians intensifying their attacks on civilians. the west now clearly contemplating an oil and gas ex port ban from russia and supplying somehow planes that ukrainian pilots can fly to the ukrainians. where does this go for the next few days, for the next week or two? >> putin had hoped to speedily take over the cities. that has not worked. what it appears that he is doing now is pulling back and sustain four or five miles, when he's

going to try to surround the cities and he's going to try to bomb them out and starve them out. he's going to establish artillery points four or five miles outside of the city in defending the areas, and he's going to try to reduce them to rubble. that seems to be his plan. the question is can we give the ukrainian army the military capacity to go after those sites and to get some relief to those cities. that will depend on resupply through poland and romania. one of the things putin has said pretty clearly is that he is not going to allow that to happen. this is how the conflict really could escalate. if those equipment flow through poland, through romania, and putin decides he can't stop it on the ukrainian side of the border, he has to do something on the polish or romanian side of the border. >> okay. >> that becomes a real issue. that is why one of the most

important things we can do is to flow forces to you those eastern members of nato, the baltic states, romania, poland in particular, and not just any forces, heavy forces, armored forces, aircraft, so that we establish a credible capability that putin does not want to challenge. that's the only way you can keep this war from spreading. >> former national security adviser steven hadley, thank you very much for coming on with your insight this morning. >> thank you so much. >> as always, ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you for being on this morning. as we continue our coverage on "morning joe," a look at military exercises happening right now with u.s. and european allies not far from the russian border. we will go live to latvia. plus, the aid for ukraine coming from an unlikely ally. as we go to break, a ukrainian military ad from years ago has now gone viral. the recruitment video was made

in 2014 showing everyday ukrainians answering the call to defend their country when russia invaded crimea. as we watch, i think of these ordinary men and women amid what they are facing today. ♪♪

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33 past the hour. we continue to see support for ukraine from some countries with recent traditions of staying out of international conflicts. in a rare move japan is sending bullet-proof vests and other military supplies to ukraine. the country is not sending weapons because of a self-imposed ban, but providing military equipment is a sign the country is in line with its western allies. japan has also said it will take in refugees, which really is an extraordinary move. >> yeah, katty kay, can we stop there for one second? >> yeah. >> two things happened. the world has changed radically.

>> it is the reaction. >> people are quoting vladimir lenin where the old quote where decades go by where it seems like nothing happens, a week goes by where it seems like decades happen. actually, this reminds me of those weeks in 1989 when one country after the other fell, soviet-backed country fell. i don't think we can explain to maybe younger people that are watching what a radical departure it is for germany, who has been haunted by naziism since 1945, germany moving now aggressively to build their military. it is going to be larger, they're going to spend more money on their military than russia does now. japan making this move. japan. nothing short -- >> amazing. >> those two countries that lost in world war ii and turned their backs on any military moves, for

those two countries to come up is extraordinary. >> japan's constitution is a passivist constitution. it is written into law that it doesn't get involved in the military because of what happened in world war ii. i think you are right about younger generations. i mean there's been a lot of criticism, why didn't germany do this earlier, why didn't germany expand its military budget earlier. in the 1960s and '70s, there were a lot of countries in europe and around the world that would have been horrified at germany expanding its military budget. the last thing we wanted was more of a military germany. >> in 1989 when western and east germany broke the french were incensed. mika and i were at an event where they were honoring george h.w. bush, bush 41 and the germans were there. helmet cole was there thanking george h.w. bush saying, without you germany would never be united. in 1989 europe did not want a

united germany because they were fearful. >> they were nervous. many of the scenes we have been seeing from ukraine have brought back ptsd, the scenes of people trying to flee by train, of playing music in underground bunkers like they did during the blitz. if this european robustness and unity we have seen over the last week, in the last ten days, if it holds we are moving from a bipolar world potentially to a tripolar world. they have spending power, they have a military budget, it could change the power play. >> we dismissed the europeans on the right too often. don rumsfeld called them chocolate makers, the chocolate makers of europe. you have trump and trumpists so dismissive of europe. but you keep looking at the gdp.

the united states, over $20 trillion. the eu, over $20 trillion. just reminder, it was european countries that were angry when we left afghanistan and left them there. it was european countries that were angry when we abandoned the kurds and left them in syria, when trump abandoned the kurds and left syria. so, again, they are great allies. this really does turn the world into a -- as katty said, a tripolar world, which is something we should welcome. >> another surprise move, denmark says it is taking steps to stop using natural gas from russia as soon as possible. the country is also significantly increasing its defense budget. meanwhile, nato has deployed part of its eastern flank where american forces are participating in active military drills alongside western allies. nbc news correspondent josh

lederman is at a camp in latvia covering the joint exercises. josh, good morning. what can you tell us? >> reporter: mika, when you hear president biden say over and over again that we will defend every inch of nato territory, this is what he is talking about. this is the front lines of nato, a baltic nation that was part of the soviet union that has become very pro western in recent years, joined nato, joined the eu. they are very scared here if president putin is successful in taking over putin and has territorial expansion plans they could be next. these guys behind me are paratroopers from the 173rd airborne brigade based out of italy. we got a chance to see their deployment as the u.s. and nato allies undergoing an operation called exercise crystal arrow, which is something they do every

other year to try to make sure they are ready for anything that could happen. take a look what we saw. this morning american troops far from home, training in latvia alongside nato legals, the last frontier between russia and the west. the battlefield scenarios these war games are simulating are entire real. brigadier general joseph hillbert over sees the 7th army tranning command. >> reporter: what messages like this do you think are sent to our potential adversaries? >> that we are ready. we have a 30-member alliance based on common values of freedom. >> reporter: it is a little over 100 miles from here to the russian border. when president putin says nato's expansion into eastern europe threatens russia, this is what he is talking about. nato says it is a defensive alliance and these troops pose no threat. last month the u.s. sent an additional 7,000 u.s. troops to europe to be ready to assist

nato's response force, activated for the first time in its history to defend nato territory. >> attention! >> reporter: the u.s. deployed about 800 troops to the baltic nations of latvia, estonia and lithuania as russia moved into ukraine, plus apache attack helicopters made in the u.s. this morning u.s. troops are playing the attackers. italian troops on the other side playing the defenders. they switch sides regularly to ensure they're ready for everything. >> we are training together in case any nation or other alliance were to impede upon nato. >> reporter: this morning secretary of state antony blinken landed here in latvia as he is on a tour of all three baltic nations to show u.s. resolve to defend all of its nato allies. earlier he was in lithuania where blinken said, look, nato is defensive. it is not aggressive. it does not seek conflict with anyone, but if conflict comes to

nato it will be fully prepared to act. mika. >> nbc's josh lederman. thank you very much for the live report. coming up, then there's this part of the story that is worth revisiting here. donald trump trying to rewrite history when it comes to his role in selling military aid to ukraine. >> wait, no, but he actually used it as a play toy, as fiona hill said yesterday on "meet the press." >> yeah. >> said when he wouldn't actually send the arms, the missiles that congress had already approved unless they gave some dirt, that sent a message to vladimir putin. a horrible message. >> terrible. his former top aide to russia weighs in. plus two performers, one hero. we'll read from maureen dowd's new piece comparing ukraine's president and donald trump. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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as we continue our coverage of the russian invasion of ukraine, it is 45 past the hour. there's been a lot of talk from the right, particularly the trump wing, about how donald trump was so tough on russia and that russia didn't invade ukraine while he was president. but on "meet the press" yesterday former president trump's chief advisor on russia, fiona hill, explained why it is what trump said on that perfect phone call with president zelenskyy that matters so much. take a look. >> well, certainly there was an awful lot done by the administration, also been congress and by ambassador hailey herself at the united nations. but i think there's one point that sums everything up that you yourself touched on, is that president trump at a pretty critical period withheld military assistance to ukraine that was desperate for it at that particular juncture, basically to get volodymyr

zelenskyy to do him a personal favor. >> what message does it send to putin? >> that sends a message to putin that ukraine is a play thing and that nobody is really serious about protecting ukraine. it was ultimately a sign of weakness. it is our political divisions, our party's infighting which was on full display there, that putin is quite shocked now we have some collective action together. >> maureen dowd's latest piece for "the new york times" breaks it down. it is entitled "zelenskyy and trump, two performers, one hero." she writes in part, quote, donald trump and volodymyr zelenskyy both played leaders on tv shows and then became leaders in real life. but after they ascended to power they took voe different roles. trump became a black guard. zelenskyy donned a white hat. trump tried to overturn american democracy. zelenskyy tried to save ukrainian democracy. trump in a nimbus of selfishness

and narcissim, inverted revered american ideals. he soiled the image of his country and reshaped it around his grievances and inadequacies. zelenskyy stood up for ukraine ideals. he helped imbue his country with a shining, resilient image, reinforced when the world saw remarkable images of battle-ready mothers and grannies making molotov cocktails. by standing up to the evil empire, zelenskyy could earn comparisons to another performer turn pol, and that should grate on trump as much as having his vice president turn on him. ronald reagan helped lift the iron curtain. zelenskyy is trying his best to stop it from slamming down again. let's bring in editor of "the new yorker" david remnick and senior fellow for strategy and security, emma ashford.

she is a nonresident fellow at the modern war institute at west point. good to have you all with us this morning. >> so, david, i wanted to go back to something that fiona hill said, and that is vladimir putin's miscalculation from paying too much attention to donald trump and the trump years. this weekend one of my children said they had never really seen what they're seeing now in class, and that is where people on both sides of the i i don't logical divide, they're no longer debating in social studies two completely different views of the word. she said people are all telling the stories they're picking up from ukrainian social media. they're talking about the sunflower seed story, they're talking about the ads. it is really an extraordinary moment and one that vladimir putin and, quite frankly, a lot of americans probably could not have foreseen, a unified america and a unified nato. >> well, up to a point.

>> up to a point, right. >> because donald trump, donald trump doesn't seem part of that unity. you know, for years, information years we have been quoting donald trump on himself, how he could shoot somebody on fifth avenue and he would still survive he could shoot somebody on 5th avenue and still survive politically. is seems to me axiomatic, by making ukraine a play thing, a source of a bribe to enhance his political career and now calling putin a genius and showing great admiration and then trying to walk that back and having a war with china and russia. if this doesn't prove him to be a fool and somebody who is incredibly malevolent about the interests of his own country and

the interests of a country trying to ward off an invasion, if that doesn't end donald trump's political aspirations to run again in 2024 then we as america are truly lost, treule lost. you can't compare his behavior, his foolishness, his idiocy and malevence to anyone. >>. >> basically talking about an unbroken line in history from czars to vladimir putin.

perhaps americans shouldn't be quite so shocked. as a man who has dedicated so much of your life to studying russia and russian leaders, are we seeing something new with vladimir putin, something uniquely meddlesome or is this just a continuation? >> i don't see it as a broken line. it would be hard to compare gorbachev to putin or stalin. these are very, very different temperaments who saw the interests of their country in a very, very different way. i think we're talking about in terms of putin is courage. that to me seems to be a theme. there are always sorts of historical and economic currents at work here, but we're seeing in zelenskyy the enormous historical importance of individual courage to,

therefore, inspire a nation. that is important. where are we going to see courage coming out of russia? your previous guests were talking about oligarchs and so on. so many people owe their position and wealth solely to one man, not to a system, not to a constitution, not to their own efforts but their ability to get close to the great leader and to curry favor with him and it is going to be extremely important to see who and michael mcfaul i think had this right, who defects from this system, says i'm willing to put up all my millions and my privileges and my power, and i'm going to say no, no more. that's going to be a very important thing in the days and weeks to come. >> i think you've been making such an important point, many

emma, you when talking about the return to the cold war when we had certain safeguards in place and not the far more dangerous earlier phases of the cold war, which we've all heard from our parents about that week during the cuban missile crisis where people were concerned that nuclear annihilation was just around the corner. and do you suggest that what we're looking at now is perhaps an earlier return to the cold where where we didn't have all the safe guards in place? >> it's not a perfect metaphor. there's a lot of differences. again, we saw that maureen dowd column. she's talking about reagan and is zelenskyy a metaphor for reagan and we're all thinking about that period at the end of

the cold war where arms controlled negotiations yielded progress and a flowering in u.s. russian and cooperation. the more analogous period i think what we're seeing today is the late 1940s and early 1950s where we see the series of crisis, the berlin crisis, the bay of pigs, the cuban missile crisis and those crises are the reasons why the super powers started to engage in arms control over the following deck deck -- decade. >> even during the cuban missile crisis, you had members concerned about krushchev.

with krushchev you actually had checks and balances and with putin just doesn't seem to be there, does it? >> no, it's a much more centralized administration in russia. but the other lesson i think we should talk from those crises is that u.s. leaders were often willing to negotiate with russia, to perhaps give some concessions on our side in order to get concessions on the russian side. cuban mission crisis. we interpret it as kennedy was tough and won. there are ways to take lessons from the cold war that might help us de-escalate. >> david, i final thoughts. >> you make an important point. yes, brezhnev was the secretary of the communist party.

but he was surrounded by people in power. and we do not have that dynamic. it's certainly not visible to us. so the power dynamics at the very top of the kremlin are so invincible that the metaphor of him sitting from the end of a 30-foot table separated from not only foreign visitors but his own aides, that should tell you a little about the isolation and personalization and the regime that exists in russia today, one man, one man. it grieves me terribly because i have so many russian friends, who is left the country in the past ten days because life as

they know it, they've left the country and you're going to see more and more of exile of people with great skill who brought something to bear on the russian future. that's part of the tragedy here. part of it. >> editor of the new yorker, david remnick and emma ashford, thank you very much for coming on this morning. still ahead, we're going to go to the polish border with ukraine for a live look at the unfolding refugee crisis as millions flee the violence of the russian invasion. plus, england's prime minister boris johnson lays out six steps the west must take to help ukraine right now. we'll talk about it with ambassador karen pierce, who will join the table in two minutes.

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nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the latest. >> reporter: russian troops this morning are on the doorstep of kyiv. ukrainian, they're escaping from the bombardment of the suburbs to go deeper into the heart of the city. even though they're fleeing,

russian troops are firing on them. ukrainians say at least four escaping civilians, including a family were killed in this attack. ukrainians and vol ears volunte helping cross a bridge. >> russians have taken over this suburb. the ukrainians blew up this bridge. it also made it extremely difficult for people to evacuate these areas that are hotly contested as russian tourists try to consolidate their positions and ukrainians try to keep them on that side of the river. >> those who make it across the river are shocked. i was bombed, this woman says. we were trying to escape and we were bombed while walking. in areas russia does now control, ukrainians aren't

submitting to their will, poring through the streets, laying down in front of their vehicles. in one case of extreme bravery and balance, riding on top of one, waving ukrainian flag. the fighting spirit is proudly on display. we visited a soup kitchen. volunteers cooking donated food for 500 people a day not far away, closer to the front, two new army recruits got married. a drone fitted to drop explosives dropped rose petals instead. >> how are you feeling right now? >> i'm happy my heart is crying. >> while down in the shelters where ukrainians are spending long and lonely nights, a young girl put on a show, singing the theme from "frozen" and lifted

worried souls. >> richard engel reporting from the ukrainian capitol. let's head west to poland. ellison barber is on the border of ukraine. she's been speaking with the refugees who have been pouring in over the last few days. what can you tell us? >> reporter: this is the sixth refugee border center we have been to. inside there are 2,000 cots, outside even more people. 2,000 cots, that's the official number. you would often see, three, four people sitting at one times. it looked like family members, one person was sleeping and the others kept watch and they would rotate out. most of the people who come here, they don't necessarily have family or friends in poland, they don't know where they're going to go next. here they have transportation,

busses that will take them to other cities in poland or even to other countries, like germany, going to berlin or czech republic going to prague. every person here, they all have come from different parts of ukraine, and many of them under the areas that are under the heaviest barrage of bullets of attack and they all have unique stories to tell and we have been privileged to hear so many of them. more than one and a half million refugees have fled ukraine since russia invaded. >> but i can't go back because there is no place to go back anymore. >> the u.n. says nearly half of the people fleeing ukraine are children. >> i have my mother, little sister and father say that we must go to war because it's too

dangerous staying ukraine. >> reporter: people are fleeing from every corner of ukraine, pouring into neighboring countries by the thousands, the largest number crossing into poland, according to the u.n. refugee agency. >> what are your friends saying to you. what is it like right now to be a teen-ager in ukraine? >> well, they really, really hate russians a lot. they came -- like the russians, they came to occupy another country. they are really angry with russia. >> reporter: using a directive established after the balkan wars, the european union unanimously agreed to offer protection with permanent status or refugee housing. they don't have to file individual asylum claims and it

can be extended up to three years. this woman believes ukraine will win this fight, but at 83 she fears this is the last she'll see of her beloved ukraine. >> it's so painful in my heart. >> we've been to six crossings on the polish ukrainian border and seen the best of humanity, kindness, bravery. i brought my parents to the czech republic and now i'm coming back to help my husband and my friends. >> reporter: 8-year-old angelina is trying to stay warm. they just made it to poland. her brother and father stayed in ukraine to fight. >> what do you want other kids

who are watching this -- >> translator: i want them not to be afraid and not to worry. i want them to listen to their parents because their parents love them more than anyone else. >> reporter: when you look at this area, mika, you see lines of people waiting to get food, most of it donated by groups. we met one local business, a polish business, they made pizzas here the other day. they made 800 by the end of the day. all of it free. they funded themselves to come here and help. when you talk to them, so many people, this is the first time in quite a few days they've been able to have a warm meal. it is confusing, it is overwhelming but still people are grateful to have some sort of an option.

>> nbc's allison barber reporting from the ukraine border. thank you so much. your reporting has been great. joining us, karen pierce and president on the council of foreign relations. richard haas has us. good to have you both. >> you see the pictures there. they are the people who have got out. we're watching the people in ukraine and it seems they have been bombed. it's on the head of "the new york times." and what does that mean in terms of the western response? if boris johnson is saying he's guilty of war crimes, what does it mean to the western response? what does it mean for vladimir putin in terms of him coming to

the negotiating table? >> we saw them in the balkans decades ago and here they are again. the international criminal court has opened an investigation. so there's a very strong international desire here to see war crimes investigated. in terms of what it means, it fundamentally means individual responsibility. those generals who are in ukraine for the russian-armed forces will be personally responsible if war crimes are investigated and identified. i just want to stress that personally accountable, not just president putin but the generals themselves. >> richard haas. we move forward day in and day out, the scenes become more horrific from the day.

we seen this before from putin, from the soviets, if you look at what happened in grozny. the russians were shocked by their inability to move quickly and got there and started committing one war crime after another. >> and they do and they're eerily similar to the war in syria. it's not accidental bombings, it's intentional. this is now part of the russian play book. this is, if you will, joe, the first form of escalation. and i think the question going forward is what other forms of escalation do we need to try to either deter or if they are to happen contend with. and that gets at questions like cyber, more questions of more widening, the potential attack on nato countries, potential

introduction of weapons of mass destruction, a lot of conversation about nuclear. i'm actually more worried about chemical, which is something the russians have been associated with in the past. what i think all this tells us is that we shouldn't assume that anything is out of bounds. the entire russian play book is to keep doing things. the idea is to depopulate the political will of ukraine. >> what has worked in the past with putin and what hasn't? clearly most hasn't worked. there's been a lot of talk about trying to infiltrate and get to the elites in russia, not just the oligarchs but people high up in russia. if they turn on him, could that move putin? >> i think that's the right question. the conversation you just had with david remnick, putin has

deinstitutionalized. it's frightening. i would put an enormous amount of emphasis of china strategy. are there things we can get them to do to reconsider their support for putin and the other is to get people on the street to make more and more people around putin realize that he is a liability. i would put out peace plans saying here's the reasonable offers that ukraine in the united states are prepared to support. here's the conditions under which sanctions need to be lifted. . we need to give some arguments to get people around him beginning to think and beginning

to talk. at the same time we continue to help ukraine militarily and turn up the heat on sanctions. >> and, ambassador pierce, you talked about how four years ago vladimir putin actually used chemical weapons inside your country. so richard seems to be spot on here as well. it seems like something that vladimir putin has absolutely no problem engaging in. >> i think he's been getting more and more ruthless over the years. you saw this gangster approach with the poisonings in salisbury, as you say. now we've got a full-scale invasion of a sovereign country. i think richard's prescriptions about what we need to think about next are very good. our leaders are hopefully getting together later this week to able to talk about some of that. as you saw from the plan that the prime minister put out on the weekend, that's not the only thing we need to do. we need to do work to support the humanitarian effort, we need

to carry on the economic squeeze on russia so that, as richard said, people around putin come to make a different calculation about the benefits of this war to russia. we need to make sure that none of this is normalized and i think that speaks to any possible peace plan. we don't want to normalize the fact that you can just walk in and blow up ukraine and then get a reward for that. even if we want to de-escalate and have diplomacy. >> prime minister johnson was talking about the bitter price that vladimir putin was going to have to pay in an essay in "the new york times." i'm just curious your personal reaction to what you've seen from germany, what you've seen from sweden, what you've seen from denmark, just something unprecedented. >> you're right. it's one of the biggest elements of the conflict that president putin has precipitated what he said he wants to avoid.

he has solidified ukraine and ukrainians and got nato to -- nato is no threat to russia. nevertheless they've gone closer to russia because of his ambassadors and you see countries like sweden and finland, anxious to have a deeper relationship and you see the provision of weapons in nato defense spending going up. if i sat in the kremlin with president putin, i'd want to know how any of that is in russia's core interests. >> to your point boris johnson has an op-ed, a six-point plan for ukraine starting today. he says mobilize the international humanitarian coalition. second, do more who help ukraine defend itself, third, maximize the economic pressure on putin's

regime. fourth, we must prevent any creeping normalization of what russia does in ukraine. fifth, we should be open to strengthening euro diplomatic security. >> richard, i'm curious on your thoughts about joe biden's comment in the state of the union address, tony blinken reiterating this is the u.s. position, that the united states will defend every inch of nato territory. we're seeing troops going into latvia, we're seeing aircraft going into romania. how aggressive should we be on those eastern borders? >> i wouldn't use the word aggressive. what we should be is robust. we should raise the ability of these areas to defend themselves. that's one of the escalations i want to discourage on the part of mr. putin.

i also think we need to think about how we deal with cyber, both how. we head it off and how we might respond if and when it happens. all along we've been one step ahead at times of putin in terms of the information game. as he gets frustrated, he's going to escalate and we have to be prepared if deterrence doesn't work how to counter it. this is not the war we were countering. i think the president's got to prepare the american people for this war. this could be extended. this could grow, not simply energy prices going up but dealing with cyber. he started in the state of the union. i think into evidences to speak to the american people regularly here. he needs to continue to explain and educate, why this matters and what we need to be prepared to do. we need more of a conversation. i don't think enough of the american people understand where we are and were and where we

might be heading. >> the point of the prime minister's plan, he talks about feeling back the facade of dirty russian money but there's bit criticism the u.k. government has done this, they say we're going to sanction you but you've got three or four months to do it. have they allowed russian oligarchs to get their resources out of london? >> i don't think so because we were the first country to sanction oligarchs and banks. so sanctions are already in place on individuals and institutions, something like 220. what's happening now is that the government is bringing forward the economic crime bill, it's accelerating getting that through parliament, that will give the government more powers

to go after the dirty money, the elicit money, more investigative powers, more ability to up the fines on people and we will be refining what are called unexplained wealth order, which enable us to seize assets if we need to and we are also reforming the way companies have to declare who wins them. so we're doing all of that but some sanctions have already been put in place. >> wow. ambassador karen pierce and richard haas, thank you very much for joining us. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll about the being on the verge of humanitarian disasters. and painting two very different pictures of this conflict. we're digging into that straight ahead on "morning joe."

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joining us now journalist and former press secretary for ukrainian president zelenskyy, unia mendel. you write in part, quote, the russians are now occupying my hometown. and also it seems my memories. the mall where we shopped is a smoldering ruin. another video showed corpses in the park where i used to go as a kid with my mother and my class to feed the swans. as local officials warn of an impending humanitarian catastrophe, i receive video and messages from relatives and friends. they tell me the russians shot at apartment buildings, homes, a school, i'm overwhelmed. helpless. i'm in the west of the country, unable to send money, food,

anything. i close my eyes and i see and feel the city. my father walking me to school, my mother buying me the tastiest pastry starts in the world. i had promised my parents that i would come to kherson soon so that they meet my boyfriend, now fiancee. i wanted him to also taste the tarts. now i have no idea if they will ever meet in person. i'm so sad for you. i'm so sorry. can you tell us what else you're hearing about your hometown, about the situation. >> i'm sorry, it's very difficult for me when you read these lines because i was crying all the time while i was writing it. the connection is bad right now and it's very difficult to get in touch with my parents or my relatives. russia tries to switch off connection when it enters the city and has all the accesses to

different infrastructure. of course one of the first thing that it tries to do is to pull the russian tv. what they try to do the latest, i'm always in touch when there is a connection. and they say that already they see food shortages and of course there is not enough medicine. the atms are absolutely empty and russia brought its own russian humanitarian aid from crimea and ukrainians just denied taking this aid because they said they are waiting for ukrainian aid. we are having protests. this is the third day. i'm very proud of my city, they're having these flags. they even took over one of the apcs. they took over one of the military where military servicemen from russia came and they put the ukrainian flag and

ran on the magistrate of kherson. i understand how difficult it is for people there and they do not know what's going to happen next. there is ruined infrastructure and there are dead bodies. this is my mom. i see my mom right now on tv. she went to support ukraine there. so i worry about them. i try to connect when there is some connection and we are just waiting, praying and hoping that the region will be ukrainian again with all the accesses and necessary things and food and humanitarian aid to help people live happily and build further ukrainian future. >> as the residents there desperately hold on tight, what are you hearing about any possibility of aid, ukrainian aid getting there? >> so we are trying really hard, ukrainian government, is trying

really hard to get success to different territories in ukraine. it's not only about kherson. there are other different cities, like, for instance, small towns which are fully smashed by russian servicemen and kyiv and towns of the east of the country. today there is the third round of negotiations between ukrainians and russian side and the smallest thing that the ukrainian side is offering is to provide humanitarian corridors. back in 2015 we have one of the biggest tragedies of independent ukrainians, the army surrounded to allow to get away from the battlefields and turned it into bloody corridor and killed hundreds and hundreds of

ukrainians there. that's what we're afraid. when they say they allow this corridor and people try to get out of the town they start shooting and of course this is very difficult situation. so the negotiations are starting like in 30 minutes, i guess, and we hope and pray this can work out. also the president of ukraine tries to reach president vladimir putin. he believes if the recent conversation he can find understanding and he can stop this violence. and after now we see that putin is unstoppable and he doesn't want to have any kind of dialogue. >> your mother must be very brave. she's still out there demonstrating in the streets. you said the russians have stopped, have blocked ukrainian television channels from being shown in kherson. how much information are people in the city getting? how aware are they of what's happening around the country?

>> you know, this is a very good question but ukraine was first invaded by russia and then we match this huge wave of disinformation. since then the ukrainian government did really a lot to explain people this necessity of fine sources of information. my mother was proud to show me what she got from the ukrainian government, for those who have wifi, that they can still find access to ukrainian channels through this link and they're very happy to have it. sometimes i'm sending some news from internet but it depends on the kherson and the people. but russian propaganda is the weapon that is very difficult to find. thank god ukrainians know what is disinformation for eight years already and they try to figure out the real sources.

so i'm in touch with many people from there trying to verify the information and in many ways it helps them just to provide them hope and to say that this is wrong and that the army of ukraine is trying to do everything to save you and to recapture the city. there is a huge belief that the ukrainian army will come and recapture. there are ukrainians there and there is a huge cover for democracy and independence of our country. >> thank you. we are praying for you. julia is a journalist, former press secretary for ukraine president zelenskyy and her powerful new piece is in the "washington post." thank you very much for sharing your story with us. >> thank you so much for covering this story of ukraine. this means a lot for us. >> of course. up next clint watts joins us to

look at the maps where russia is advancing and ukrainian soldiers are keeping up the fight. "morning joe" is coming right back. ight "morning joe" is coming right back eds. even with repeated combing hair treated with dove shows 97% less breakage. strong hair with new dove breakage remedy. number one beauty brand not tested on animals. aahhh let's get you lovebirds flying! book with priceline and you save more... so you can “ahhhh” more. - ahhh... - ahhhh... - ahhhhh!!!!!!! - ahhhhh!!!!!!! ahhhhh! ahhhhh! aaaaah... i'll see you at the hotel. priceline. every trip is a big deal.

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we're also getting a clearer picture on how this battle is playing out on the ground. the "new york times" is highlighting the tactical differences between both sides, ukrainian troops, quote, organize in small, nimble units that can sneak up on and ambush the lumbering columns of russian tanks. one ukrainian officer says, quote, they have a lot of tanks, we have a lot of anti-tank weapons. in the open field it will be even. it's easier to fight in the city. a russian soldier said how he was captured. my commander burned and died. i ran into the forest and later surrendered to local people. war studies professor friedman uses this map to illustrate for

russia as well, the red areas said to be controlled by russia, he argued that presence doesn't mean control writing "the populations remain resolutely ukrainian in their loyalties, providing evidence not only of their indignation about the russian occupation but warning how the lack of effective control could have deadly consequences. and writes about the russian convoy that stalled writing "this is no longer a convoy. it has not moved for days and is not going anywhere. the spectacle no longer conveys a menacing threat but instead epip mizs russia's poor planning and the limitations of its equipment." he writes that ukraine is following a classic model for underdogs, avoiding big battles

in favor of am bushes and attacks on supply lines. >> and now let's go to clint watt, a national security security analyst for nbc news and msnbc. i read in the "times" a couple days ago a ukrainian fighter was saying it's even about when we're fighting in the countryside and in the hills but when we go in the city, that's when it becomes easy. i'm struck by pictures i've seen of entire streets gutted with russian tanks and russian equipment that went into an ambush and a siege. ukrainians doing very well and pushing back. if you look at the map, this truly is -- this is a story of two wars, one in the northern part where the russians are

bogged down and doing terribly and one in the southern part of the country where russians seem to be doing far better and are expanding and consolidating, making gains every morning. >> that's right, joe. i just kind of want to talk where we left off last week on friday where things have gone and where they might go. remember we talked last week about kherson. they went to this bridge head and to another bridge head, all with the goal to seal ukraine off from the sea. if they can do that, they've essentially crushed the ability for them to resupply from the south and we should start paying a little more attention to this area here. there is essentially a breakaway territory there, that is ethnic russian populations. putin will always say i want to unite all russian people under my banner. he's creating a banner here, and

if he takes odesa, he'll have taken all of the beach front territory that will allow them to get supplies. where is the bread basket? the wheat is here. we're talking about inflation around the world right now, mostly focused on oil. in other parts of the world, a lot of the wheat comes from this area. when does planting season start? usually about april to may. we could be looking at major shortfalls to wheat. egypt takes a lot of the wheat. >> clint watts, thank you very much. still ahead, many american are looking for ways to make a difference when it comes to the crisis in ukraine. we'll be joined by the leaders of two organizations working to deliver aid to those forced from their homes. "morning joe" is coming right

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46 past the hour. as more and more ukrainians flee the violence, many are stuck in limbo, trying to figure out where to go next. nbc news senior national correspondent tom llamas spoke to families trying to get children out of an orphanage in lviv. >> reporter: the mass exodus growing. >> i left my home to nowhere. have i no plan. i just wanted to save my child. >> reporter: protecting children is fueling the migration to the fighting in the east to safe havens in the west. these children may be in the worst possible position because they're orphans. they do not have family.

they are in limbo right now. they are being taken care of, they are being fed but no one knows what's going to happen tomorrow. >> we introduced you to ukrainian children, evacuated. he told us he hopes to still be adopted. he told me he wants the war to stop. >> anything you want to say to anybody, friends back in that other region? his answer shook me because it's the reality of this war. >> i want them to stay alive and not to die. >> our story hit close to home for several families back in the u.s. because they recognize children they were trying to adopt. >> i said, oh my gosh, look, he was eating. >> reporter: he came up to us asking to be on camera. he spent summers and winters in iowa, getting to know this

family that wants to adopt him and his two siblings. >> he's so special, he want to be with us so bad. we have to say we can't come today, we're waiting. >> reporter: they tell us there are at least 300 american families in the same boat. >> it's kind of like you have that reach but you can't get to them. >> reporter: the romeros also recognized a child they're trying to adopt. they are along the border, trying to move along the adoption of their child who they save text him every day he's afraid of the war. >> it doesn't matter about the paper. he's my son. and i just want to hug him. >> as tom reported, the russian invasion has triggered the fastest growing refugee crisis in europe since the second world war. almost 1.5 million people have fled the country so far.

how can americans help? let's bring in the president and ceo of americare and the founder of global empowerment mission. thank you both very much for being with us this morning. christine, i understand you have some activity happening in krakov. explain what you're trying to do. >> we have a small team in poland. we know what is needed is essential medicines and medical supplies. we have a shipment of three tons headed into the ukraine right now and we know this is just the beginning. we're also ready to deploy emergency medical teams as soon as we can. >> and how are you doing with getting the cargo jets that, you know, carry this much-needed equipment and supplies, medical supplies. the number one ask i'm hearing out of poland are companies

helping? do you have the jets needed? do you have the suppliesneeded? >> we do have companies help. we've been doing this for 40 years in americares and seen terrible situations, seeing it right now, and we are able to get those supplies where they need to be. we do have people helping, and we need more help and the global community needs more help. >> mike, i'm hearing stories from friends of mine in the uk, filling up vans and driving them to poland. that's not something americans can do because there's a ocean in a way. what would be the most useful thing for americans to be doing? >> michael? >> oh. yeah. so we set up here in poland. we set up a very large warehouse already.

i've been here with ten days for our team. we set up a warehouse that's 40,000 square feet, and we have partnered with all the different local groups, ukrainian groups, polish groups, other european groups, and our u.s. partner groups. we have a large warehouse in florida where we amass supplies on a large scale. so we've already committed now to sending 100 containers with approximately $45 million worth of supplies. and the haul comes through our polish headquarters now with a partnership with the former first lady of poland, her foundation. and the idea is to be -- we're trying to streamline this, right. wep we have been at this a long time. so the idea is that this supply house is where all the other orgs come and get what they need. everything is a different need

now. if you have a church in poland and you have 50 people sleeping on the floor, you'll need blankets and certain things and you may not need canned foods, for example, because they're cooking for them. and in a mall where there's 30,000 people sleeping on the floor, they may need 100,000 bottles of water and 100,000 blankets. we are setting this up so there's an ebb and flow of u.s. and european supplies coming through the supply chain. then we partnered through our be strong initiative with bethenny frankel funded by jeffries and many other incredible groups. we put together $5 million now into a relocation fund. we partnered with a local travel agency with four offices in poland and we have workers who are various groups, and it doesn't matter what group it is, what race or kind of people they

are. caseworkers collect the data. is family is from ukraine. they need to go to dublin, ireland. we did that yesterday, for example. or this family needs to back to africa or back to canada. you have to try to take the large groups and try to at least m get the effort back into, like, the whole world because there's too many people who will be coming here. it will be impossible for any of these countries on the border to sustain this. so this fund that we -- the be strong fund is basically going to pay the travel agency for just processing all of these families. so we've done about 300 at least so far, and we expect to do, you know, 10,000 in the next week. >> all right. founder and executive director of global empowerment mission, michael pa pony and the president and ceo of americares, christine squires. thank you both.

to learn more about helping these organizations, visit globalempowermentmission.org and americares.org. we'll put this mission on our website as well. finally this morning, as the fighting in ukraine continues, thousands of women of all ages, some even without military training, are taking up weapons and heading to the front lines to defend their country. a new op-ed entitled "ukraine's formidable not-so-secret weapon: women" highlights these true acts of heroism. it reads in part, "the war in ukraine is about many things but certainly protecting democracy in the face of tyranny is the most important among them. around the world where women have played a central role for democracy has been more likely to prevail. the crisis in ukraine changes minute to minute and the outcome is far from certain, but one thing is for sure -- the strength and courage of ukrainian women should not be

overlooked or discounted. when history is written, it just may be their collective strength and power that made the difference." joining us now the author of that piece, lawrence o'donnell leader, from all in together, a nonpartisan women's civic and political organization. it's amazing, whether it's the superhero strength of mothers, you know, dragging children across the border or the women staying behind. >> we saw women dropping their children off and saying i'm going back to fight with my husband and my son. >> the contrast the way ukraine has embraced women's rights and empowered women in that country since democratization compared to what putin has done in the last decade in trying to roll back women's rights. you see the power women have when they are participants. they've fought since 2018 to have equal right in the the ukrainian military.

they've been listed in large numbers. we saw that video from a few years ago that showed from 2014. it's been a consistent theme over the last number of years that women in ukraine feel a sense of obligation or responsibility to defend their country and they've stepped up. my view is, just as every fight for democracy around the world has benefitted from the full participation of women, it will too in ukraine. they make a difference. >> they're making a difference, too, in the sense that the ukrainians understand the power of russian women, particularly russian mothers. they know how to get to the russians, through the mothers of these soldiers. >> who would think confronting a soldier in their backyard to pick up the phone and call their mothers. you talk about the military power of women taking up arms. incredibly important. they need every able-bodied person to defend. but one of our tools in this

warfare is the power of russian mothers to call on their sons to come home. that is an extraordinary example of the way women lead and think about leadership. i think it could be an incredible differentiator in this combat. >> how extraordinarily in our lifetime, our adult lifetime, there were debates on whether women should serve in combat in the united states and across the world. these images radically changing that not only here but across the world. >> and it was ukrainian women soldiers and veterans of the early participants in the ukrainian military who themselves fought for the right to fight on the battlefield, to have a full and equal access to all the same kinds of military roles as their male compatriots. it's an extraordinary testament to them. it's not just the women soldiers. they're trying to keep their children calm and keep them safe in this set of unimaginable atrocities is unforget. >> thank you so much.

>> great piece. >> important message. final thoughts. >> i think we're at a pivotal time where the west is clearly talking about upping its commitment, perhaps blocking exports of oil and gas, potentially sending planes at the same time as the russians are clamping down and attacking civilian areas. all of our thoughts are with ukrainians. but this is going to be a rough week. >> we'll be posting on the "morning joe" website, on our social media ways that you can help the refugee crisis. it will grow exponentially. millions more are going to be coming across the border. >> thanks for being with us today. that does it for our coverage. chris jansing picks up continuing coverage in a minute.

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i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. we start with hundreds of thousands of civilians from ukraine in the crosshairs trying to escape the war zone. they are fleeing into the capital of kyiv as the russian military pushes to within a few miles of that city. it follows two separate attempts over the weekend to establish so-called humanitarian corridors. twice russia and ukraine agreed to cease-fires in order to give people a chance to get out. both times russia broke the cease-fires with