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pentagon, where the defense department spokesman is set to take the podium in the next 30 minutes. this will be his first briefing after the u.s. refused an offer from poland, who had offered to give some of their fighter jets to the u.s. to then supply to ukraine. in fact, the pentagon, the white house and the state department have all been put on the defensive this afternoon about the move to deny ukraine these critical weapons. on capitol hill, a massive aid package to ukraine on track to pass today, now appears to be derailed, at least temporarily. house speaker nancy pelosi sending it back to the rules committee to take out covid relief money. we're expecting to hear from the speaker on this topic in this hour. while in ukraine, new images of a russian air strike that destroyed a children's hospital in the eastern port city of mariupol. president zelenskyy is claiming children are under that wreckage. and in another sign of the russian military, attacking civilians, new satellite footage appears to show extensive damage to homes and buildings in

western mariupol. this is a before and after shot at a shopping mall, and a grocery store. and good afternoon, i'm garrett haake in washington. hallie jackson is on assignment. and our nbc news team is here with me. chief foreign correspondent richard engel in ukraine, josh letterman in poland, peter alexander covering the white house, courtney kube at the pentagon and we're also joined by retired lieutenant general ben hodges, former commanding general for the u.s. army in europe. and, richard, i want to start with you in kyiv. with this widespread condemnation we're now seeing directed at russia, after this latest attack apparently hitting a children's hospital out east, what can you tell us? >> reporter: i don't think you need to say apparently, it hit a children's hospital. it is right in the center of mariupol, it is impossible to miss. we spent weeks in mariupol before coming to kyiv. and where we were staying was just a few blocks away from this hospital.

mariupol is now completely surrounded, we're talking about firing into a captive population, there are 400,000 people or wore about 400,000 people in mariupol, some have managed to escape, but the vast majority are trapped in the city. they are running out of food, they are running out of water, and then this massive explosion, it dug a crater that looked 30, 40 feet deep, locals were describing it as an air strike, potentially a very large bomb dropped by a russian fighter jet. and it destroyed a large section of the hospital. a children's hospital, and a maternity ward, and witnesses are saying that no people were immediately killed by the strike, that more than 17 people were injured, and but the president of ukraine is saying that there may be children trapped under the rubble. but what is happening in mariupol is beyond tragic.

officials here are calling it a war crime, an atrocity, and we're talking about bombing people who cannot leave in the center of the city. so this could not have been an errant strike, it could only serve one purpose, which is to try and get the ukrainian people to cry uncle, to surrender, to give up, it is also a message to other cities in this country, including kyiv, a message that unless the government gives up, this is what is going to be coming to other population centers including the capital. >> the most vulnerable who suffer first. josh letterman, you're in warsaw, where the vice president is on her way. and talk to us about how her mission has gotten more complicated even during the time she's been in the air as the administration is trying to answer questions about blocking this deal to send polish fighter jets to ukraine by way of the u.s. military.

>> reporter: yeah, garrett, keir clearly the kerfuffle is going to overshadow the initial part of vice president harris' trip to warsaw. i spoke with former ambassador to poland, steven mull who is our ambassador to poland during the last time that russia invaded ukraine in 2014, and he said, look, the poles got ahead on their skis here, they are trying to be helpful, they saw what the u.s. had said about this being a sovereign polish decision, and they wanted to put this announcement out and get some of the headlines for themselves, and so they went a little too far, but there was no likely effort here to try to box the u.s. in. that having been said, this has created an issue that the vice president is going to have to paper over as she is meeting with polish leaders, trying to find some way, if there is a way, for poland to transfer its aircraft to the ukrainians without the u.s. military being directly involved.

former -- current secretary of state antony blinken laying out just a little while ago the reasons the u.s. thinks it is a bad idea for those aircraft to first be transferred to a u.s. base in germany. here's what he had to say. >> we're in very close consultation with allies and partners about the ongoing security assistance to ukraine because in fact i think what we're seeing is that poland's proposal shows that there are some complexities that the issue presents when it comes to providing security assistance. we have to make sure we're doing it in the right way. >> reporter: so that's kind of the immediate crisis between the u.s. and poland, to resolve, but beyond that, poland has some real front burner issues here, garrett. not only are they concerned that if putin overtakes ukraine, and starts to threaten other nato allies that they could be threatened themselves, but they're also seeing this massive influx of refugees.

poland has taken far more ukrainian refugees than any other nation in this conflict. it is a significant burden that they have to try to figure out how to deal with. they are looking to the u.s. to see what additional humanitarian assistance the united states will be able to provide as poland tries to step up and help its neighbor in its time of need. >> vice president landing right in the middle of the western response to this crisis, josh. thank you. peter alexander, the white house press secretary was asked about this polish fighter jet situation a little while ago. she had a farley straightforward question about whether the administration wants this transfer to happen, and she answered mostly talking about the logistics. what is the white house's position on trying to get these jets into the hands of ukrainian pilots? >> reporter: the white house has made it very clear they want to do something that would not be viewed as escalatory here. as courtney kube will detail in moments from now, the white house, the state department, the pentagon, were caught off guard by that statement, that announcement by poland yesterday. there hadn't been any

coordination, no consultation, expectation for the u.s. and we heard from antony blinken over the weekend was effectively giving the green light to poland delivering the planes directly to ukraine, not that the u.s. would be the intermediary here. we heard from the press secretary jen psaki basically taking this a little bit off of the vice president's plate, saying this is now being discussed among military channels, because it would be a transfer of military hardware saying secretary austin at the pentagon and the joint chiefs chairman general milley were in contact with ukrainian and nato counterparts on the issue here. but the bottom line for the white house is they view this as both a logistical and political challenge. logistical, how do you get the planes there and not get the u.s. in the middle of this, triggering a wider war and politically how do you do it in a way that doesn't do the latter part of that, create a wider war, pull nato into it and pull the united states into it as well given that vladimir putin said anybody helping support a no-fly zone in any form would be

viewed as a participant in that effort. garrett? >> so, courtney, peter teed you up here pretty nicely then. from the pentagon's perspective, what the difference between providing fighter jets and shoulder mounted missiles that can take out taverns or planes? is it because these could be perceived as offensive weapons too, or just a matter of the logistics of how to make this work? >> reporter: so it is more of an issue of the logistics. there is always the concern about doing something that could be considered provocative, that would force vladimir putin to do something beyond ukraine, but that's not really what i'm hearing about here at the pentagon. this is more of a logistics. not just the logistics of getting the aircraft in, not a long distance, it is the danger involved in this mission. now the air space over ukraine is contested. now, that means that, yes, both the russian air force and the ukrainian air force still can fly in parts of that country, but it is in a very dynamic and

extremely dangerous situation. the reality is more of the country is covered by russian surface to air missiles, the ability to shoot down an aircraft, than ukrainian. ukrainians still have an air defense system, still have a viable and working air force, but the russians cover a large portion of the country, with a very capable air defense system. and what that means is they have the ability in large swaths of the country to shoot down aircraft. that's the problem here, garrett. the concern is that if they were -- if whom ever were to fly these manned mig fighter jets into the country, there is a very real possibility, if not eventuality, that the russians would try to shoot them down. and then what are we talking about here? the russians shooting down an aircraft that is being flown by a polish air force pilot or whom ever it is that would ultimately transfer them in. it is also really important to

point out here, a senior defense official is laying out the situation for us earlier today. the ukrainian air force still has the vast majority of its fixed wing aircraft available to it, and the reality is there is not a whole lot a lot of the fixed wing aircraft on other side flying right now. majority of what is in the air right now is missiles and artillery. what ukraine needs to stop this massive onslaught and i don't use that term slightly, it is an onslaught on civilians in kharkiv, mariupol, in kyiv, what they need to stop that is more air defenses. so the ability to stop these missiles, to stop the incoming artillery. that is the critical need that ukraine needs, according to this defense official right now as opposed to fighter jets. it doesn't mean they won't need them down the road as the situation changes, you know, it is, again, a very dynamic situation, but right now that's what the u.s. is really focused on, getting things they need to stop the immediate threat from

russia. >> i got to say, courtney, when you hear from president zelenskyy as members of congress did over the weekend, as lots of folks have in interviews recently, he is asking for planes. i think it is interesting that the pentagon is saying no, that's not what you need, and he and every opportunity is saying in fact what that is what we want. >> yeah. i think -- put yourself in his shoes. he's i'm sure asking for everything he can get. >> sure. >> they need everything and anything they can get. but if you look at the real immediate threat right now of what he's -- what they're taking this bombardment from, it is missiles, it is artillery. there is not a whole lot of air strike threat right now. that being said, a huge caveat to that is yes, the russian air force is still very capable and they have a tremendous amount of air power around ukraine right now. and there is a very real possibility that air strikes still could and will happen and this will be more of an air war than we're seeing right now with manned fixed aircraft.

so it is possible that these aircraft, these migs could be used in the future, but given the risk, the very serious risk of bringing them into the country right now, you have to ask is the risk worth what they would be needed for right now, which is not an immediate need? >> no that makes sense. i appreciate it, courtney. i want to bring in general hodges now. we jumped into the deep end of the pool. let's back up here i want to review some of the things were we told by a senior pentagon official. the situation on the ground broadly in ukraine, russia has fired more than 700 missiles to date, no real russian troop progress in the last day or so, they also confirm that russia has been using what they call dumb bombs, nonguided missiles, potentially like the kind of thing we saw richard engel talking about in mariupol. and they also say they're not sure if this is by design, or if it is because of problems in their equipment. and finally the pentagon says the patriot defensive weapon

systems have been pentagonposit poland. what jumps out at you? >> well, garrett, first of all, your team is so good. i've been watching them for weeks. >> the best. >> and good analysis, they're on top of things. there is quite a bit to unpack here. of course, what we're witnessing is premeditated murder, the president of the russian federation. i mean, dumb bombs are called dumb because they don't have a guidance system. so there is no way you can possibly target a specific house, we would never do that using a dumb bomb. and so this -- and we know that general oleg markovetsky, he's the one authorizing the targets and the locations. so this is intentional. and to hit a hospital like this. and you know we made mistakes in iraq and afghanistan, but we go

to huge lengths to avoid exactly this. we take risks with our pilots to avoid this happening. clearly they're not encumbered with that sort of concern. but it is important to recognize that what they have done is because their original plan has failed, they have decided to put millions of refugees on the road by bombing cities, and putting immense treasure on the zelenskyy government and on the governments of the west, and the united states, so people would say, for the love of god, please stop this killing of civilians, we'll do whatever it takes to stop the killing. so that's the intention here. now, courtney makes an excellent point, most of the damage is being done by surface to surface systems. artillery, rocket launchers, and also cruise missiles being fired from the russian navy black sea fleet in the black sea, and in sea of azov.

so i think whatever we can do to help ukrainians defeat those launchers, that means more intelligence, more counterfire radar, more anti-ship missile capability, and mines that would cause the black sea fleet to be a lot more concerned about what they're doing instead of launching missiles into towns packed with innocent ukrainian citizens, i think this is part of what needs to be done. and finally, on those migs, look, this is very complicated. i applaud the idea of giving aircraft to ukraine. they know how to fly them. i would never imagine it would be polish pilots or anybody else flying from poland into ukraine. and always assumed it would be ukrainian pilots come to poland, get current on the aircraft and then they would be the ones flying again. >> well, general, we'll probably have another chance to discuss this. you're sticking around for after this pentagon briefing, but for the rest of our team here,

courtney, josh and peter, richard, in kyiv, thank you all. we're going to take a quick break now. coming up, david cicilline joins me as we get some late breaking updates on that funding package which we have been waiting for a vote on, which includes military aid for ukraine, and what's now being dropped from that bill. and later, nbc nightly news anchor lester holt, a live update from western ukraine where everyday citizens are getting ready to defend their city. yday citizens are getting ready to defend their city for people who could use a lift new neutrogena® rapid firming. a triple-lift serum with pure collagen. 92% saw visibly firmer skin in just 4 weeks. neutrogena® for people with skin.

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i come across the street for a few hours and the headlines on capitol hill start changing by the minute. that's what they have been doing all afternoon. that massive government funding bill slated for passage today is now going back to the drawing board. not only would it keep the government open and fully funded through september, but the bill also gives billions of dollars in aid to ukraine, and yet more money for the u.s. pandemic response. that was the case until about

half an hour ago. lawmakers disagreeing on where the money for fighting covid would come from. and so house speaker pelosi now saying that because of, quote, republican insistence and the resistance by a number of her fellow democrats, they will remove covid funding and accommodate revised version of this bill. i want to bring in congressman david cicilline, member of the house foreign affairs committee. the committee was working on this as early as this morning. it seemed like it was going to go through the floor process and get done today. what happened here, in regards to this money for covid? >> i think it is still going to get done today. it is good to see you. regrettably the covid funding which was included in this bill met some resistance from our republican colleagues, at least the way it was being paid for, it was a request of the administration. i think the speaker made it clear that we're going to continue to fight for that, just in another piece of legislation, what we're going to move forward

with the balance of the funding bill as well as the security and economic and humanitarian assistance to ukraine. >> on the ukraine assistance, we have watched this number grow from late last week, we were talking about something like $6 billion, then 10, then 12. i think the final number is somewhere approaching $14 billion for aid to ukraine here. does that go far enough? does that cover all of the needs that we're able to cover at least so far? >> well, i mean, we have so far provided over a billion dollars in lethal military assistance to ukraine. just in the past two weeks, $350 million, but i just returned from the ukraine/polish border. there is an enormous humanitarian crisis and we're beginning to see just the start of that. we're likely to have to do more as well as our european partners, nato allies, are all doing their part. but this is a very substantial amount of assistance both security assistance, economic assistance, and humanitarian ,

depending how long this war goes, we may have to come back and provide additional support to the ukrainian people. >> let's break that down a little bit. the military assistance piece has a ticking clock, right? you got to get the money and the weapons to the ukrainian government while there is still a ukrainian government. the humanitarian challenge is in poland, and across eastern europe are so much bigger and potentially have longer ripple effects. tell me more about what you saw in poland, what your concerns are there, as we talk about weeks, months, potentially years into the future? >> yeah, the humanitarian crisis is just extraordinary. it is heart breaking when you see the thousands and thousands of people who have been forced to flee their country because of this brutal unjustified, unlawful military attack. and we went to the border, one of the border crossings in poland, the larger border crossing where a million and a half people have left ukraine, mostly women and children, and the men are required to stay there and fight.

these are folks running with basically just the clothes on their backs, some of them with a single suitcase, freezing cold, hungry, sometimes traveling very long distances. and leaving because they have to leave in order to stay alive. so it is horrific, because of the war crimes being committed by vladimir putin, where he's bombing neighborhoods, and children's hospitals, and residential buildings. and civilians. and targeting civilians. and, you know, first wave of immigrants, refugees, are mobile, who have some resources, are healthy. the second wave of refugees are likely to be people who are older and sicker and have less resources, so this is going to be a growing humanitarian crisis. the poles are doing an extraordinary job of responding to it, feeding refugees across the board, having clothing there, warm place for them, bringing them to a welcome center. they are doing magnificent work with lots of volunteers. but this is just the beginning of a very, very serious

humanitarian crisis. >> thank you for your time and bringing us the story from on the ground there. we'll look for some floor action later tonight. david cicilline, thank you for being with us. stay with us, as we wait for an update from house speaker nancy pelosi and from the pentagon, hopefully both, after the break. you're watching msnbc. , hopeful the break. you're watching msnbc. wayfair's got just what you need to be outdoorsy. your way! shop the biggest selection of outdoor furniture and furnish your habitat from your habitat. get a new grill and cook over an open flame. now that's outdoorsy! go wild on garden decor, find shelter from the elements and from predators or just be one with nature. this year spend less and go all outdoorsy at wayfair. ♪ wayfair you got just what i need ♪

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tresemme. do it with style. we're back now with the latest from ukraine. in the western city of lviv, once considered a safe haven, away from the violence, residents who are still there now taking matters into their own hands. building barricades in the street and mixing molotov cocktails as they await what feels like an imminent russian advance. i want to bring in the anchor of nbc nightly news, lester holt, in lviv for us. you got a firsthand look at how regular people, civilians are preparing for this offensive. take us inside what you saw. >> reporter: yeah, garrett. we spent a lot of time walking, driving around the suburbs and the city of lviv. we have seen some of these barricades, but we came upon one today that was still under construction and we inquired about it, nobody was in uniforms and they basically said we're civilians, we're kind of self-assigned here, we want to guard our neighborhood, we want

to guard our nation, and so they're filling sandbags, they have steel, they have spikes, all kinds of things, barriers, to create a checkpoint of folks coming in out of their neighborhood. there is a fear of russian saboteurs or spies in their midst. none of that has been confirmed but it is on their minds. this is a country or part of the country that is watching carefully what is happening, in places like kharkiv and other places that are under bombardment right now. and they want to be on guard. so it is fascinating to talk to them, they feel this sense of duty, a sense of national pride. we saw it yesterday with people -- a factory owner who turned his steel factory into a place now making war materials. so it is very reminiscent of world war ii. it is happening here. >> it is striking to me in the leadup to this war, you had president zelenskyy, a lot of people in ukraine who were very calm, didn't necessarily believe

it was going to happen, and now the war has come to them in lviv, especially as a city where if the war was going to get there, it was going to get there late. what is the sense of anxiety, of fear, of unity? tell me what your sense is from talking to people there now that the war does seem to be almost on their doorstep. >> reporter: i have to say, ten minutes from here in central part of the town today, people at coffee shops. at first glance, it does not look like a country at war. you go inside and visit people, like the young women we saw yesterday who were cutting strips of garments -- abandoned garments and making camouflage netting, so there is active efforts now to prepare, but at the same time, if you drove through this town, you'd say, it is a beautiful charming european city, with not a worry in the world. not the case. they have many worries in the world as they watch what is happening in the east of their country. >> just extraordinary. lester holt, thank you. we'll look for more of your

reporting tonight on "nbc nightly news." thank you. and happening right now, on capitol hill, president biden's supreme court nominee ketanji brown jackson just met with democratic senator joe manchin, who will, as he often does, play a pivotal role in her upcoming confirmation. now before today's meeting, manchin said he'll watch the vetting process unfold before making a decision on how he'll vote. confirmation hearings for judge jackson are set to start in less than two weeks. joining me now on capitol hill is nbc news correspondent ali vitaly. what more do we know about this meeting, what does manchin want to hear from judge jackson? >> reporter: just while you were talking to lester, we heard this meeting with joe manchin and judge ketanji brown jackson finally wrapped up. it lasted well over an hour and you're right, manchin is one of those people that you, i, all the other folks up here on the hill regularly look to at the pivotal moments when it comes to the senate to vote. this is certainly no exception. manchin is someone who has voted to confirm jackson before, but

in this moment, someone who is a stickler for process, wanting to make sure that he and his colleagues will have enough time to vet her, to consider the kind of justice she could be, certainly this meeting was a big step for him, in moving forward towards that. and it is not the only one that she had today or even this week. it is really been a merry-go-round of meetings here on capitol hill, with republicans and democrats alike. one of those catching our attention yesterday was senator susan collins, a key republican who could make this a bipartisan confirmation, should she choose to vote for jackson. this is what she told reporters right after that meeting. >> she explained in great depth the methodology that she uses as she approaches the cases that come before her. it's clear that her credentials and the breadth of her experience are impressive.

i will, of course, await the hearings before the judiciary committee before making a decision, but i found today's session to be very helpful. >> reporter: and i'm sure your takeaway was similar to mine when i heard those comments from collins yesterday, it sounded like she was impressed with the judge, it came away as if she was looking to vote for her. of course, nothing is final until it is final, but collins is one of those that we're watching extremely closely on this as the white house tries to potentially get republicans on board. dick durbin, head of the judiciary committee, said repeatedly when i talked to him about this that there are a handful of republicans who he thinks could cross party lines on this one. i know you and i have talked to lawmakers who say they're inclined to do so, and are really trying to use these meetings with the judge to try to sus out her ideology and her view of how the court should act. as we know, the confirmation hearings are set to start as you

said in less than two weeks. >> manchin and collins, who aren't on judiciary, these meetings are especially important. you can hear white house aides high fiving each other at how well that meeting went with susan collins yesterday in particular. ali vitaly on the hill, thank you. staying on capitol hill, we have yet another trump world figure now suing to try to block a subpoena from the january 6th committee. in this case, it is former trump white house senior adviser steven miller, who wants to stop the committee from getting a hold of his phone records, arguing that doing so violates his first and fourth amendment rights. his attorney saying the subpoena may, quote, improperly disclose information to persons who are interested in merely making partisan points or harassing mr. miller. joining us now is nbc news justice correspondent pete williams. steven miller is not first person to use this argument to try to block this committee subpoena. is it going to work in this case? >> it may not. these are tough ones to get a judge to agree to, because there

is a very simple reason for this, the courts have long said that you don't have any privacy interest in your own phone records, because after all, you're -- it is a transaction between you and the phone company, and the phone company bills you based on your records, and now the supreme court has said that when somebody like law enforcement gets where your cell phones have connected to various towers and plots your movements, that can be a search that requires a warrant. but they haven't said it for just plain old ordinary phone records like this. it is always a bit of a tall order. miller makes an argument that the government is going to get way more than it needs, and maybe he can succeed in getting it narrowed. we learned, for example that believe it or not, this former high powered white house official is on his parents' cell phone plan, his parents' t-mobile plan. so the subpoena in theory could also get their records as well. and perhaps he can succeed in trying to get this narrowed down

a little bit, but the argument that he has a privacy interest in his own phone records is not one that usually works in federal court. >> pete, i know you'll stay on it. we have pentagon press secretary john kirby, now briefing reporters. let's listen. >> -- in particular anti-armor and air defense. we along with other nations continue to send them these weapons and we know that they're being used with great effect. the slowed russian advance in the north, and the contested air space over ukraine is evidence alone of that. although russian air capabilities are significant, their effectiveness has been limited due to tactical ground-based air defense systems, surface to air missiles, and man pats. secondly, ukrainian air force currently has several squadrons of fully mission capable aircraft. we assess that adding aircraft to the ukrainian inventory is not likely to significantly

change the effectiveness of the ukrainian air force relative to russian capabilities. therefore we believe that the gain from transferring those mig 29s is low. and finally, intelligence community has assessed the transfer of mig 29s to ukraine may be mistaken as escalatory, and could result in significant russian reaction that might increase the prospects of a military escalation with nato. therefore, we also assess the transfer of the mig 29s to ukraine to be high risk. and we are grateful for the superb support and cooperation of our polish allies who continue to host thousands of our troops and are welcoming more as i said more than 1 million ukrainian refugees. polish generosity is clearly on display for the whole world to see. but at this time, we believe the provision of additional fighter aircraft provides little increased capabilities at high

risk. we also believe that there are alternative options that are much better suited to support the ukrainian military in their fight against russia. and we will continue to pursue those options. again, we thank poland for their incredible level of support and cooperation, poland is a valued ally, and a very good friend. we look forward to exploring ways to deepen that partnership in this critical moment. and we also know the ukrainian armed forces as well as average ukrainian citizens are defending their country with great skill and bravery. we will continue to look for ways to help them do that, knowing full well that that effort is in no way made more effective or less harmful to the ukrainian people by steps we take or decisions we make, which lead to an escalation of that conflict. i might add just before coming out here, the secretary wrapped up a phone call with the ukrainian defense minister, minister reznikov as one of his

ongoing series of calls with counterparts. we'll have a more detailed readout of that call later, the call just concluded. so i don't have much context to provide for you there. now, on another note, approximately 3,000 u.s. marines will join some 30,000 military forces from 27 nato ally and partner nations for the norwegian led exercise cold response. which kicks off monday the 14th of march. this is the ninth iteration of this multidomain extreme cold weather exercise. designed to enhance our collective military capabilities in demanding arctic environment. this exercise will emphasize and test critical activities, ranging from the reception of reinforcements and interoperable command and control to combined joint operations in a highly intense combat environment. in total, approximately 220 aircraft and more than 50 ships will take part in the exercise. u.s. forces began training in norway in december. as u.s. marine units conducted cold weather training and

planning in the leadup to this exercise. two marine expeditionary force will be the largest american military unit participating this year, some 200 military vehicles, attack and assault, support aircraft and equipment departed camp lejeune, north carolina, in january, as part of that unit's participation. and, again, we look forward to a terrific exercise, cold response, and the exercise will be running through april 1st. with that, we'll get the questions, bob. >> thank you. with regard to the polish proposal on the mig transfers, would it be correct to say you just closed the door on this transfer whether it's done through the united states or through any other nato country? and, secondly, separately, but related, you referenced alternative options that you're looking at. can you explain what that is? >> alternative options are

working with other allies and partner nations around the world who may have additional air defense capabilities and systems at their disposal, who might be willing to provide them to ukraine. and so we're having discussions with many countries right now about some of those capabilities, surface to air missiles that the ukrainians are more trained and equipped to operate. so -- it could include additional man pads as well and anti-tank -- anti-armor, excuse me, systems. so we're going to continue to talk to the ukrainians about their needs, and we're going to continue to talk to allies and partners about how to best fill those needs. but it is our assessment right now for all the reasons that i gave you that we don't believe additional aircraft is the most effective answer to meeting those needs in the conflict.

now, look, sovereign nations can decide for themselves what they want to do. but this idea, the proposal of transferring the jets to our custody and transferring to ukraine, that is something that we are not going to explore right now. jen? >> are you talking about providing s-300 missile defense systems? >> i would rather stay away from the actual systems themselves. we're going to continue to look at a broad swath of capabilities that the ukrainians could use effectively. some of them they already are and maybe they need replacements. >> is the difference in providing javelins and stingers to the ukrainians versus migs or fighter jets? why is that more provocative from an intelligence perspective? why is that scene as more provocative? it seems like you're splitting hairs there. >> there is no splitting hairs, jen. we take seriously the intelligence community's assessments and their views

based on the information that they have available to them. and it is their assessment, one in which the secretary concurs that the transfer of combat aircraft right now could be mistaken by mr. putin and the russians as an escalatory step. as i said, we need to be careful every decision we make, that we aren't making the potential for escalation worse. because that's not only not good for nato and it is not only not good for the united states and our national security, should this conflict escalate even further, but it is certainly not going to be good for the ukrainian people to have what is already a destructive and terrible war get even more destructive and terrible, given the fact that mr. putin has other capabilities at his disposal. >> i have two questions. the first is on the mig 29.

this -- the prospect of delivering mig 29s to the ukrainians was raised by president zelenskyy and based on the assessment you just told us, this is not the most effective way. are the ukrainians on board with this assessment or still insisting that -- have you been in communication with the ukrainians on this issue exactly? >> i just told you that the secretary just finished up a call with minister reznikov. i don't have a readout for you right now. finishing up as i was walking here to the podium. we'll have a readout for you. i doubt seriously that readout going to ascribe the sentiments of the ukrainians. that is for them to speak to. i will defer to the ukrainian government to speak to this on their own. >> and on this issue of military biological labs in ukraine, that

the russians keep raising, can you basically explain to us what the relationship if any there was between the pentagon and the ukrainian side on any biological labs, when was the last cooperation and what do you have to say about these russian accusations? >> the russian accusations are absurd. they're laughable. and, you know in the words of my irish catholic grandfather, a bunch of malarkey. there is nothing to it. it is classic russian propaganda. and i wouldn't -- if i were you, wouldn't give it -- i wouldn't give it a drop of ink worth paying attention to. >> but can you explain to us what it -- has there been any relationship -- >> we are not, not developing biological or chemical weapons inside ukraine. it is not happening. yeah. go ahead. >> are you concerned that russia is actually doing this because

they're planning some kind of biological -- >> again, not being perfectly inside the minds of the russians, we have seen one of their playbooks is to accuse the other, that which you are doing or which you plan to do. and to create -- to create a narrative that a victimhood and blaming somebody for else for something you're in fact going to do. i have no evidence of that. i'm not suggesting that that's in the offing right now. i have no intelligence indicators that that type of weaponry is in ukraine and being planned to be used. i want to be clear. but it is of a piece of the russian playbook to blame others for which that you are about to do or considering doing. they have done that plenty of times before. >> on intelligence, since you said that the u.s. intelligence assessment is that the transferring of the combat aircraft was considered high risk, what was the assessment of transferring javelins and stingers? was it also high risk, but the calculus was the ukrainians

needed them, so it was worth it? >> without getting into specific inventory issues, the short answer to your question is, yes. as we make the decisions to provide support, from the very beginning, even before the invasion, but certainly since, we go through that calculus, and to make sure that we are giving them what we believe can be best suited to their needs and we see they're using them. they're using it with great effect. but also keeping in mind as we must the potential escalation of the conflict. it is a calculation we do routinely, every day. >> it is not uncommon the stingers, the javelins or anti-a anti-armor, some of those have been considered high risk but the calculus is -- >> i wouldn't say everything that we're sending we consider

to be high risk. and without characterizing something as high or low risk, in particular on the other inventory items, i would tell you we go through that calculus with every shipment that we send. what is best needed best neededt and with a mind that we obviously don't want to needlessly or heedlessly escalate the conflict. okay? i'm sorry. >> thank you. the soldier who is are deployed to poland 82nd helping americans from ukraine. >> that's right. >> you mentioned the massive refugee flow. i wonder if the mission has or looking at expanding that to a wider humanitarian mission and maybe something you discussed with poland. >> there hasn't been active

discussions to something wider. but i can assure you that the secretary will want us to be as responsive as possible but we are not tracking a request to expand the mission set for the 82nd right now. they have that capability should they be needed and would want to pitch in and help and in constant discussions with the polish authorities and state department and should there be a need for that you can bette the military will chip in and help. i would add and i don't want this at all to sound gratuitous but the poles have been doing an amazing job harboring, welcoming, taking care of a million ukrainians that have fled across that border. that's only i guess by the u.n.

estimates the half that left the country but the polish government and people have been su serb. spectacular. if they need our help the united states military would be positively disposed to look at the requests. >> thank you. talking about poland, an official said russia launched 710 missiles into ukraine. how close have those missiles come to the polish border? >> what i would tell you, carla, without getting into too much detail, almost all of the missiles that have been fired from either inside or outside ukraine have been targeted at sites in the eastern part of the country. if you were to draw a line from kyiv down to odesa, straight line, almost all of those

strikes occur to the east of that line so nothing, nothing close that we have seen to poland or even in western ukraine. >> a quick follow on the humanitarian corridors that keep trying to be established and then failing. does the pentagon consider it a war crime to establish a humanitarian corridor and then bomb it? >> the pentagon is not making judgments on war crimes. we'll leave that to the experts. what i would tell you is that short of stopping the invasion which is really what needs to happen here, short of that we want to see that innocent civilians are given safe passage and not harmed. they ought to be given safe passage. shouldn't have to have but if they are it should be to inside ukraine. not aimed at the north into

belarus and russia. i think the ukrainians can be forgiven for not wanting to flee into the countries that targeted them. we want to see truly safe passage inside their own country and unmolested from russian attacks which is not always the case in the last few days. calling for a safe passage and corridor and hitting people trying to use the corridors and killing the people in the midst of evacuating. i'll leave the legal scrutiny to others but clearly what we want to see is for the destruction and the death to stop and short of that to be observed, humanitarian concerns to be observed by the military. >> are you discouraging the transfer of fighter jets to

ukraine? separately, have you assessed the russians used thermobaric weapons? >> no. what i'm talking about is the proposal of the mig-29s. sovereign nations are deciding to make decisions about security assistance to ukraine and they have that right to do that and not our place to speak for them. we felt it was important with a transfer of u.s. custody that we believed it was important to lay flat the concerns about that and that's what we have done here. david? >> on the order to deploy patriots into poland, defense officials said this morning that secretary austin ordered that. i thought that internal movement was ordered by general walters.

so one, why was it ordered by secretary austin? and two, what changed to convince him that he should put patriots forward in poland? was there any kind of aerial incident? was there a failure of the deconfliction line? was there another intelligence community assessment that the risk was higher? what changed from before he ordered the patriots until now? >> no one thing precipitated this move. we have been talking now for weeks about our willingness and our capability of moving assets in theater given the conditions on the ground and then a looming invasion and now what has been a quite destructive invasion in

ukraine. and the secretary has never been one to take off the table options to relocate assets as he believes is best suited to defense of nato territory. this is one of those decisions. it wasn't precipitated bay single moment or issue or act by the russians but rather by a constant and routine consultation with nato allies. in this case poland. about the needs and the capabilities that would best suit our obligations to article v. as for the orders given, clearly general walters gave the order. hess in the theater and has that authority and he made that order but at the direction of the secretary based on the consultation with our allies and partners. that's not unusual at all.

that's very typical. matt? >> hi, john. ukrainians said the maternity hospital was hit by a russian strike. do you have anything on that orb the oh civilian casualties that you are seeing at this point? >> i'm afraid i don't. i have seen the reports but we can't verify that. obviously that's a horrific outcome regardless of it was intentional or not. if it's true and we have no reason to doubt that we can't independently verify, another indicator of the supreme sacrifices that the ukrainian people are making and shouldn't have to make. you know? we are talking, you know, families, children killed, wounded, displaced. all of it, all of avoidable.

all of it completely avoidable. on the casualty count, again, we are being careful to not get in estimates. we know there have been casualties, civilian casualties. ukrainian soldiers have suffered casualties. we know the russians have and being careful not to get into estimates of numbers. the estimates vary widely. change literally every day if not every hour. not an operation we are conducting and don't feel like we can put out spoesk numbers. >> seeing reports of unguided munitions being used. is that factoring in? >> yeah. we have indications that not everything that the russians are using in the long range fires are precision guided, that a

number of munitions are not and therefore not precise and raises the likelihood and the chances of civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure. not precise. even in their use of precise weapon systems or so-called precise by russian accounts, we have seen again civilian infrastructure hit and civilian casualties caused. cara? >> hi. how concerned is the pentagon of the risks to escalate into the nuclear conflict increased and did that weigh into the decision to say the u.s. would not have a role in transferring the migs? >> the risk of escalation factored into the thinking on the proposal. and again, i want to be