turkey this morning, russia's sergey lavrov falsely claimed there were no patients inside the hospital when it was attacked. the ukrainian diplomat said his request for a 24-hour cease-fire was denied and russia conveyed that attacks will continue until its demand are met. plus, new claims this morning that russia could be laying the ground work to use biological or chemical weapons. and what could be a looming crisis at the chernobyl nuclear plant. the power is still out and so far no signs that the russians, who now occupy the plant, are trying to restore it. and the battle over how to get fighter jets to ukraine gets complicated as the country's president jabs the u.s. for denying a plan by poland. all of this as the war enters day 15. with us we have u.s. special correspondent for bbc katty kay. columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david

ignatius. and former nato supreme allied commander retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis. he is chief international security and diplomacy analyst for nbc news and msnbc. >> willie, a lot of horrid news coming out yesterday for the people of ukraine. another day of bad news for the russian military. just their complete ineptness on the battlefield. to put context on the bad news, you had a meeting between two foreign ministers this morning. it didn't end well but the question is what did they say behind closed doors during the meeting. you have the russians and zelenskyy now seeming to sort of circle each other, the broad outlines of a deal that could happen.

ukraine declaring its neutrality, russia getting crimea and the two breakaway. we are starting to hear talks of that and we are having two foreign ministers getting together instead of the joke of a conference we saw last week and the first week of the war. >> yes, this is the highest level meeting between the two sides. the ukrainian delegation said not much came out of it though it was a start they met together, though sergey lavrov, the russian foreign minister, as mika pointed off waved off concerns about the attack on a maternity and children's hospitals and said while they were housing insurgents there there were no patients there. that's just not true. it is hard to negotiate across the table where this is not an errant missile but a target on a hospital. the world health organization says 18 hospitals, health centers, ambulances have been targeted in this war. you combine the inept tuesday

ineptitude and it is a tough country to negotiate with in good faith. >> it is. david ignatius, still ukraine neglecting with russia and the two sides actually trying to figure out how to get to a place where, one, lives can be saved in ukraine and, two, vladimir putin's third-rate army will cease to be exposed for just the absolute debacle that it is. >> this is a war that's painful for both sides, where both sides do have reason to negotiate. russia has reason to negotiate because its forces increasingly are walking into what would be a long-term trap. it will take them years to get out of ukraine if they persist. they do not have the forces to occupy a country whose people clearly detest them.

ukraine, their cities, their citizens are getting pounded. these horrible scenes. i wrote this morning it is like watching a child being strangled to see these scenes appear. >> you also wrote this morning that the idea of sending jets that won't make a big difference in the outcome of this battle, that sending jets the wrong thing to do, that cool medicine must prevail. >> so, joe, as we know we're on the edge of what could be a nuclear confrontation if russia chooses to escalate into that space. >> you also wrote this morning more dangerous than the cuban missile crisis right now. >> the cuban missile cries crisis was a negotiation between the two sides, there wasn't a war going on. it wasn't conducted under the light of cnn and nbc world. >> right. >> they could meet and think carefully and find a way out. we're in a different and more

dangerous situation. that's why i take the reports of diplomatic negotiations we've been discussing this morning seriously. they haven't gone anywhere yet, but a diplomatic exit to the crisis is in everyone's interest. >> and other countries maybe getting involved? >> interestingly, israeli prime minister naftali bennett met saturday with putin. if there's a pathway to more serious negotiations that could be a productive one. >> katty kay, as david pointed out, when you look at the realities of this, as he said both sides have reasons to negotiate, i think the questions on everyone's mind is does putin understand that or is he just driving forward no matter what, and if one thing doesn't work he will go for another? i'm thinking nuclear power plants, i'm thinking chemical weapons. >> clearly all of those options, chemicals, nuclear something

that at this point unbelievably we can't totally dismiss. two weeks ago if we had been talking about this we would have thought you were crazy. now here is the white house saying we do think it is a serious possibility that we have to consider. the signs out of that meeting from turkey aren't good. i mean here is the ukrainian foreign minister saying russia is not in a position at this point to establish a cease-fire. they seek a surrender from ukraine. this is not what they are going to get. ukraine is strong, ukraine is fighting. the aide to president zelenskyy saying today, we're going to retake donbas and crimea, so not even accepting the status quo, wanting more than what they had before they started because the ukrainians feel they're in the stronger position. on the head side of things and

allowing diplomacy carrying on, which i think is what has to have. seeing women who are heavily pregnant, the more pressure there is on politicians to do something, anything, even if we all realize the risks of those escalations. >> that is a real challenge. >> the russian people could see it, that would be a bigger difference. >> right. admiral, that is obviously a challenge as we are talking about, hoping that the ukrainians and the russians get to a negotiated peace that could avert world war iii, that could avert nuclear strikes. americans are seeing every day these war crimes that are taking place on television and nobody is talking about regime change in russia right now because it pushes us possibly even closer to the brink. but follow up, if you will, on what david and i were talking about earlier, just about how poorly the russian army as days

go by, how poorly they're looking to their friends and enemies alike or to their friend and enemies alive, and why vladimir putin has every reason in the world to bring this to a close before the army is exposed and before he's exposed at home even more. >> i think that's correct analysis, joe. you know, there are a string of war colleges around the world that are run by all of the militaries. every one of those is going to be studying this as a fundamental central case study in military incompetence on the part of the russians. and even more than that, on a case study of what war crimes look like. i think that is going to echo for a long time on the world stage. the second point, you know, david mentioned correctly that there was no cnn, there was no

msnbc back in the day in the cuban missile crisis. i'm going to show you the biggest weapon in this war. it is right here. it is these cellphones. the flip side of there was no visibility on this, there's a lot of visibility. let me tell you something. the russian people are beginning to see this. this is bleeding into the networks there indeed. so over time i think that that will have an effect. when you couple that with the sanctions which are going to strike and begin to really bite, you know, russians are going to be living on bread, potatoes and vodka for a long time. and then, finally, when you couple that with the military efforts to close here, bringing in the support to the ukrainians -- you know, we can have a debate about bringing the jets or not, but the point is we need to get the ukrainians the

ability to create a no-fly zone. that has to be more than stinger missiles. we have to increase that capability. i think nato should continue to look at a jet solution but it may take some time to work out. in any event, if we do those three things i think it does undermine vladimir putin. it does help bring it to a close sooner rather than later. >> and you raise that telephone, it makes the point i was talking about a couple of weeks ago where my russian professor in 1983 said that the russians feared the xerox machine far more than they feared the pershing cruise missile being deployed. i want to talk to you though about how significant this military humiliation is to russia. i almost said the soviet union because it is really one and the same. i have been reading a lot from your friend, dr. brzezinski, and in 1983 he writes, "moscow's

power is uniquely one dimensional, relying exclusively on the might of its military power. the other elements of traditional great power status are beyond the kremlin's reach, whether that's economic capacity, technological innovation or ideological appeal to the rest of the world." this is so devastating to putin because really all they have -- and it is what dr. brzezinski was saying in '83 -- is they have military might. really, when you strip that down all they have are nuclear weapons. so it is not just that their military might is being exposed. it is the core of russian power and what they've always seen as russian power being proven to be in absolute shambles. you said something fascinating about this being the second fall of the soviet union. explain. >> so as you were saying, joe,

we sometimes describe russia as a gas station with nukes. you know, it is this huge energy power and it has a military machine and that's about it. and the military machine is being shown now not to be working, and it is especially damaging to putin because that was one of his projects. he knew that the russian army had just decayed, the discipline was lax, that the conditions for young soldiers were intolerable. it was hazing. these were not well-managed, well- pro visioned armies. it has been a project for a dozen years and i think that project is shown to have failed. these columns run out of gas. they run out of other supplies. they're not fighting well on the ground. individual russian commanders simply don't today the initiative. the reason that that column is stuck that we keep watching every morning on the highway north of kyiv is because individual commanders didn't have the initial as they saw blockage to move out, to act.

>> right. by the way two generals, high-ranking generals killed in one week. >> so all of the bad things that can happen to a military have been happening to the russians, and it cuts directly to putin's leadership because it was his issue. so i think that's a concern. when you say the second fall of the soviet union, it is early in the story to say that, but i think it is possible. putin's russia is in the process of being squeezed, and what is going to be left of it in terms of its economy, in terms of its military power could be significantly less. so that opens the way, the idea of thinking about a different russia five years from now. >> right. >> that's an encouraging thought. dr. brzezinski, if your dad was here i'm sure he would talk about that. how do we think about getting to that future where there's a different kind of russia? >> willie, we have two stories unfolding right now. of course, the assault on ukraine and the ukrainian

people, the war crimes being committed every day. as david said, really what we're seeing unfolding before our eyes really the second collapse of the soviet union. >> it is astonishing. as someone put it yesterday, vladimir putin has collapsed 25 years of progress after the soviet union in the space of a week when you look at what has happened to the economy based on his decision to go into ukraine. as david was talking there we were looking at images of that maternity and children's hospital in mariupol that was bombed out by the russian air force yesterday. nbc's richard engel has more from there. >> reporter: vladimir putin says russians should be proud of what their soldiers are doing in ukraine, but where is the honor in bombing a children's and maternity hospital in a city that's surrounded? no patients were reported killed in this attack, but pregnant women were among those who were helped out of the building. ukraine called it a war crime and says children are still

trapped. >> i cannot realize why it is necessary for russian troops to just -- to destroy hospital. >> reporter: russia denied it was responsible, though russian forces have been cutting off mariupol for days. the city has run out of basic supplies. we don't have electricity, we don't have anything to eat, we don't have medicine, we have nothing, this woman says. at an urgent care hospital in kyiv, medical officials accused russia of deliberately targeting civilians across the country. in every room we saw civilians. this man having a bullet removed from his leg. in an adjacent room, a man with a brain injury. he had been under his bombed home for two days before being dug out. how are you and the medical community handling this war? >> there is a kind of duty. we have to because we are doctors. >> reporter: this family was escaping a suburb north of kyiv.

after russian troops bombed their house the family hit the road and was quickly stopped by russian soldiers who waved them on, but as soon as their car started moving another group of russian troops sprayed the car with bullets. 16-year-old catarina was shot in the back. she collapsed unconscious on top of her 8-year-old brother, saving him. >> translator: i remember that we were driving and the first thing i saw was my knee. it was shot through to the bone. and after that i think i fainted. >> reporter: her mother, tatiana, was hit by 12 bullets down her legs while she was pleading with the russians to stop shooting. >> translator: we started shouting, stop, there are children here, stop, but they didn't stop and kept shooting. three or four people were shooting just as close as you are sitting right now. >> reporter: her husband feels guilt for not having left sooner. but russian media are not showing these images.

instead, russian tv described these special military operation as a heroic struggle against nazis. back in mariupol, the crater next to the hospital gives an idea of the sheer size of the bomb dropped in the center of the city. bodies here are being laid to rest in mass graves, harkening back to wars europe thought were consigned to the past. >> nbc's richard engel reporting there from ukraine. not only is russia not showing those images to its people, the government, they're now describing the attack and the reports of it on the hospital as fake news and information terrorism saying that there were ukrainian soldiers in the hospital. joining us now live from lviv ukraine, nbc reporter molly hunter with more on the efforts to open the humanitarian corridors. what does it look like there? >> reporter: good morning. this is the sixth morning that

residents in mariupol and some of the other besieged cities in the northeast have awakened after days without heat, without electricity, without water, thinking maybe today is the day they can get on the buses and get out of the city. this is unfolding right now. we did 15 minutes ago get information there's a humanitarian corridor loaded down with medicines, with water, with basic supplies heading to mariupol. minutes ago we have learned that the convoy has been turned around, it has been blocked. part of a cease-fire, willie, and the agreed-upon cease-fire that the icrc brokered here is that lifesaving humanitarian aid gets to go in and civilians come out with that. we have seen absolutely no evidence all week. again, it is the sixth attempt to get residents and civilians out of mariupol. we have seen no evidence all week anyone has been able to escape that city. now, as this is happening, as this is unfolding right now we are trying to get more reports

about some of the other routes. there are apparently seven other routes this morning, the highest level of diplomatic cease-fire talks are going on between the russian foreign minister and the ukrainian foreign minister as you guys spoke about. i want to share with you sound from the foreign minister of ukraine about how it is going this morning. take a listen. >> i was ready to make all necessary calls right away to arrange a humanitarian corridor from mariupol. i proposed it. my proposal was not -- was not followed by -- was not supported by minister lavrov. my impression is that russia is not in a position at this point to establish a cease-fire. they seek a surrender from ukraine. this is not what they are going to get. >> reporter: willie, as you just heard they seek surrender from ukraine. that is not going to happen

according to the ukrainian foreign minister. now, foreign minister lavrov spoke directly after that, seeking to justify their strikes on that maternity ward in mariupol. he said, claiming without any proof that the maternity hospital what a legitimate target because there were militias. we have seen the proof that's not true, willie. >> they can hide the images from russia but not the world. nbc's molly hunter in the western part of ukraine in lviv. thanks very much. joe and mika, we just heard from molly you have the russians blocking humanitarian corridors, stopping food, water and medical supplies from getting to cities that need them. we've heard reports of russian troops firing on the humanitarian convoys in the past and, as we saw with our own eyes, images of a maternity hospital being bombed out by the russian air force. >> just scenes of horror.

there's no other way to describe these other than war crimes. but this is what russians do. this is what vladimir putin does. it is what he did in aleppo. it is what russians did in grozny. this is what they do because this is all they're capable of doing. david, i do wonder though, you see these scenes of horror. you see lavrov agreeing to a meeting, which is about as high of a level as the russians can give, something they weren't willing to do two weeks ago when they began this invasion when they thought it was quick. and you hear the lies and you hear lavrov saying they expect nothing but total surrender. lavrov knows the ukrainians will never surrender to them. and he knows as putin knows, as every military strategist knows, they've lost this war. they're not going to win the war. that's not being pollyannish, it

is just you talk to any military strategist. they will never be able to subdue this country. so it does sound to me like the russians may not be desperate for a peace deal, but they're trying to make the situation as horrifying to the ukrainians as they can to drive them to the table to get the agreement on neutrality, to get the agreement on crimea, to get the agreement on donbas, and you have the ukrainians going in the opposite saying, oh, no, now we're going to take back crimea, we're going to take back donbas. >> moving the goalpost. >> it sounds like two sides that may be trying to find a way to get together. >> we keep talking about exit ramps. it may be the ultimate exit ramp from vladimir putin is defeat, defeat over a long term. i want to ask admiral stavridis who has studied war all his life what choices he thinks vladimir

putin has. specifically, admiral, i want to ask you about what choices he has in terms of escalation. the one thing that i think all of us are concerned about is that facing this blockage in ukraine he could choose to escalate into different domains. there's concern that he could use chemical weapons. there's concern obviously that he could use the ultimate weapon, nuclear weapons. do you think those fears of escalation are realistic and how do you think we should respond to them? >> top of my list is cyber. i am very concerned that putin will reach for, if you will, david, horizontal escalation, take the conflict outside the borders of ukraine using cyber, and in sort of an ascending order of targets he will go after is the sanctions that put pain on his population. he will try to use cyber to put pain on our population. so potentially he could go after gasoline networks like the

colonial pipeline hack. he could go after food chains here. moving up a notch, he could go after transportation. think air control. think train management as it moves across the country, both here and in europe. thirdly, he could go after financial institutions. those are very well protected. they're harder targets than the first two i mentioned. at the high end of the scale, potentially he could go after government command and control, military. again, very hard targets. he will probably choose not to do that as the russian state, but issue, if you will, letters of mark to the cyber gangs. probably that's the model that was behind, for example, the ransomware attack on our gasoline network. picture high gasoline prices on top of, oh, you can't even get gas. that's the way i think he will try to do the escalation. in terms of nuclear, i think

that's very unlikely. he is not seeking the apocalypse here. i think he's angry, bitter, upset, deeply disappointed in his military, but i don't think he's crazy or irrational. so look for cyber. finally, the gas and the biologics. hey, just for the record, i was supreme allied commander of nato. the u.s. has no biological chemical weapons in europe. we don't do that. we are out of that. he will try and plant that false flag, but, david, bottom line, i'm watching cyber. >> and on the cyber front, mika, in the last call between biden and putin when there was talk about cyberattacks, of course, biden let putin know how many

pipelines to the number that russia had, and in his own way said those are nice pipelines, it would be a shame if something happened to them. >> i don't know if you saw yesterday, there was an intriguing story that came out of finland. the finnish government is reporting planes flying near the finnish border and the russian border have reported that their gps has been interfered with. that started after they met here on saturday to talk about finland's ties with nato. >> admiral, as we look at pipelines and bombs and chemical warfare and all of the different options on the table that putin has and what the world can do as a response, i still think about getting to the hearts of the russian people. like if you look at the scenes from the maternity ward, you look at the video that came out of the blown-up maternity ward

of women in labor being carried off, babies being obliterated, if that could get to the russian people, there is no woman that would think that is okay. what is that ability to get to the russian people with the real information as to what is going on? >> well, we are a long way from needing to have cia agents running around inside the country with the mimeograph machines, which half the audience doesn't know what i'm talking about. those days are gone. yes, over time i'm certain what i am seeing on my cellphone is going to bleed into moscow, into st. petersburg, into the more sophisticated levels of the russian population.

i think it is going to be a while until it can get down to the level where it creates the kind of visceral response across the entire population you're describing, but you're right. we are not only in a kinetic battle here -- rockets, bombs, tanks -- we are not only in a potential cyber conflict, we are in an information conflict. bottom line here, you know, people say to me sometimes, oh, admiral, you're right, it is a war of ideas. kind of. it is really a marketplace, a marketplace of ideas. we are going to win this, but we got to compete in that marketplace. we have to get our ideas out there, and we have the technical capability to do that. last thought, for any swedes or fins who are listening, please join nato. ask us on wednesday, we will have you in on friday. >> all right. admiral james stavridis, thank you for your insight once again this morning. still ahead on "morning

joe," with the costs of war mounting and his army in disarray, we will talk more about vladimir putin running out of options and how dangerous that prospect is. plus, what the white house is saying about new concerns on the use of chemical weapons. also this morning we are joined by the chairman of the foreign relations committee, senator bob menendez. you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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has made little progress over the past week and is suffering continued losses. joining us now national security analyst for nbc news and msnbc, clint watts at the big board with the maps. and emeritus professor of war studies at kings college london, sir lawrence friedman. thank you both for being on this morning. katty kay. >> yes. sir lawrence, thank you for joining us. you have written a great piece on space and time and the options facing vladimir putin. you ask several questions about morale both within the ukrainian forces and in the russian forces. but let me ask you about the russian soldiers. you make the point that the soldiers, many of whom are conscripts, seem to be frightened and find themselves in an unexpected situation. how are they going to respond as this drags on, and how are the officers going to respond as they watch their own forces loss of morale?

>> we know quite a bit, being very careful at all stages of this about overstating the russian problems. that's because we're quite surprised to find ourselves in the position where they seem so great. i think there's two big consequences. first, you can see the russian commanders are very nervous about trying to take ukrainian cities. what we were expecting was forms of urban welfare before this time, and it just hasn't happened. i don't think they've got the troops that can go into these well-defended urban areas and take them. i think that's the first big consequence. secondly, the logistics as everybody has noted is very poor. it is very cold at the moment. i think the russian commanders at some point what sort of damage they're prepared to accept to the long-term capabilities of our forces, the long-term morale of our forces by keeping them at it. i think that's particularly relevant in the north.

again, as many people have noted, in the south it is somewhat different because the logistic lines are easier. even then, their record on taking towns is pretty poor, which is why i think mariupol has become such a target for them. it is not just a scene showing just how destructive and vicious they can be. they really need that town, that city to give in. if they are nervous about trying to take it by force, they're trying to find every other way of bringing it down. >> clint, mariupol as we have been showing all morning has been savaged including the attack on the maternity hospital yesterday. so many eyes on the capital city of kyiv, how close are russian troops there and how are ukrainian forces holding up around the city? >> that's right, willie. what we had yesterday, we talked about these three axis of

advance closing in around the city. obviously the ukrainian military doing a fantastic job fighting this off but time is on the side of the russians and so are logistics. when you look today, once we zoom in a little bit more you are seeing in the eastern part of kyiv you are starting to have troops advance, many reports of skirmishes on the outer boundary. i think that's where we see a change in the north. if you see this now, you are seeing troops creeping in here from the northwest. more importantly, here from the east. two areas here, brevaria and here, zelesia, those are two axes of advance that seem to match up with the highway system. if they can do what they're trying to do, which is essentially to seal off ukraine from the east, the north and now moving around from the convoy that was here stuck to the west, it will leave kyiv in a situation they can only resupply from the south. if they're totally enveloped, i think that's what we're very worried about at this point, that's when we get to a

situation like we have with mariupol down in the south. yesterday with mayor toll we saw this awful, awful airstrike that hit. this is a hospital complex, an airstrike hitting right in here causing mass death and destruction. the russians, of course, using disinformation. that's the next layer we need to look at. whenever the russians are moving in and they get stuck or bogged down they start looking for options and that's where their disinformation starts to indicate, it is telling on themselves, they start to indicate with they might do. several things have happened. again, here in the east we have fighting between sumy and kharkiv. the disinformation out of the kremlin yesterday talked about a school or location that may have chemical weapons to the northwest of kharkiv. if you look back in syria, there's about 17 times we believe they used chemical weapons in syria under the assad regime, russians with them. why would you use chemical weapons? if you by passed a population center and you don't want to go

back and clear it, it is a way to attack the city, kill all of the people in it without destroying the infrastructure. i think it is a dangerous situation we see in the east. secondly, that talks about the humanitarian corridors. even when you see evacuations coming from these cities today, this is becoming increasingly dire situation. food, water, starvation and dehydration, exhaustion from two weeks of war as we enter the third week. i think this is where we have to talk about the ukrainian morale over time. when you see all of these civilians moving to these population centers, closer to the center of the country, again, if we look at the russian advance it is essentially trying to cut all of this off. there will be a long-term problem with how we help ukrainian civilians inside the country. >> david ignatius, i know you have a question but i must ask you, if the russians start using chemical weapons to kill tens of thousands of people in cities, do the calculations of nato change about whether they

intervene? >> so that's a situation that's impossible to predict. chemical weapons are weapons of mass destruction. their active use in this conflict against defying international opinion takes us into a space we haven't been in. i can't imagine that there would be simply acquiescence as those people died. >> they did use it in syria and barack obama said it would be a red line, of course, famously, and then rode back from the red line in terms of intervention. so they have been used and the world did not respond. >> and if you talk to anybody in the obama administration they will go back to that moment where he drew the red line and then allowed -- and then stepped back across it as one of the low points. >> it is interesting, joe. >> i just wonder. >> our ability for the moment is focused obviously on deterring that act.

it was interesting yesterday that jen psaki and a senior visiting british official both mentioned concern about using chemical weapons. i think as a warning. it wasn't accompanied by a red-line statement, but it was a warning. i want to ask clint at the map. clint, as you look at the configuration of forces now, ukraine still has a substantial army to the east of kyiv. i'm wondering if you see any possibility for a ukrainian counterattack that would relieve pressure on some of these big cities and give them a little more breathing room. is that still possible or are they too squeezed now? >> i think so, david. i think it comes down to -- i don't have a good understanding what their food and water situation is. i think it is maybe the limiting factor at this point. there are several spots now where we've seen ukrainian military pob up, here around kharkiv. we talked about it yesterday to the south, that's very close to the russian border. the other spot is mykolayiv in

the south. this is still a contested around mykolayiv. there's amazing footage of essentially farmers taking a russian tank, essentially taking it off there. the big question is they have to prevent the north and south axes from joining. from the north and sumy you see them advance south. i think for the european military the key is to keep these two axes from linking. when that happens as we saw here from the land bridge from crimea to mariupol, you see them move in, there are logistical trains that are more advanced. this is rail trains, essentially moving supplies back and forth. with most of the nuclear sites they have major trail heads which allow you to move supplies

back and forth. i think it is still possible, but i don't have a good handle on what the ukrainian resupply is like or what it will be like over time. >> professor freedman, the british government has agreed to send anti-aircraft missiles. tell us how they compare to the stingers and how much difference they could make on the battlefield for the ukrainians in the context of nato and the west seeming to have decided that sending aircraft themselves to the ukrainians is not something they're prepared to do. >> well, you basically answered the point because we're not prepared, i won't be prepared to put our own aircraft into the fight, you are making it hard harder and harder for the russian aircraft, which they've lost a number already. it is another system that enables the ukrainians to knock

out russian aircraft, which have to fly quite low if they actually want to get close-air support to their ground forces. i'm less pessimistic about the ukrainian position. i think there's been very little advance really in recent days and, you know, the ukrainians have lots of supplies coming in from the west. it is not quite as dire a situation for them as you might imagine. so this is a tough fight. -- do go to fight in open country, their great strength has been in taking out russian supplies, in ambushing units that have got detached from their main force, in using intelligence. i mean the support the west is giving in intelligence is not to be underestimated. i think the ukrainians are still

in a pretty strong position defensively. >> all right. emeritus professor of war studies at king college of london, lawrence freedman. thank you for being with us. >> thank you. >> thank you, clint for being with us. we appreciate you being with us today. david, i want to briefly follow up on something that was just said. we in the united states and in the west, of course, we always focus on the glass that's half empty, what we're not doing. the planes, the 29 old, outdated migs we're not sending to the ukrainians, the boots on the ground, the no-fly zone. that's too much discussion centers around that. as the professor said, the west, the united states getting an extraordinary amount of weapons across the border into ukraine

and you saw it. talk about it. >> so, joe, last weekend i was traveling with general milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, and i did see this extraordinary pipeline of weapons that's coming from the united states and other western countries. i saw racks of javelin anti-tank missiles on their way into ukraine. i saw a c-17 that presumably had just brought them there. great, big u.s. air force plane. one after another these planes were landing. we were told 14 wide-bodied planes were landing every day at this particular place near the ukraine border full of weapons, full of javelins, stingers, other weapons, and moving quickly through groups that people wouldn't describe into ukraine. so that supply effort is extraordinary and people should know about it.

the ukrainians are having success with it. these scenes we see of tanks, of convoys under attack, that's because of those javelin missiles and the stingers are taking down planes. i was very encouraged. professor freedman is one of the great professors on military affairs and if he believes the ukrainians are doing better than we may believe, i take that seriously. one reason is because we are trying to push weapons through to them. obviously the thing to discuss going forward is how we give them more weapons. >> right. >> how we give them more of what is working for them. let's not give them stuff that won't work. in my view migs would be in that category. let's give them what is working to stop the russians. coming up, ukrainian president zelenskyy has been vocal about what his country needs to fight russia. our next guest just spoke with him about what negotiations with putin might look like. that is next on "morning joe."

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despite the horrific scenes we have been showing you this morning out of ukraine, the country's president says he remains hopeful vladimir putin's war will end diplomatically. that's what president zelenskyy told vice news correspondent ben solomon. >> can you make a compromise with putin. can you trust putin? >> trust? oh, no, i trust only my family. >> reporter: how can you make a deal with somebody you don't trust? >> we have to. we have to. because to stop this war, how to stop this war, only dialogue and only dialogue with him, he's the president of russia. and russia, oh, fighting against ukraine. they came to our land, to our houses, to our children. we didn't -- yes, we didn't invite them but they are here. >> reporter: what would be your

message to president vladimir putin right now? >> right now? right now, stop the war, begin to speak. that's it. >> what if he doesn't? >> i think he will. i think he will. i think he sees that we are strong. he will. we need some time. >> and ben joins us live from kyiv. ben, an extraordinary interview, sort of kneeled down in a bunker with sandbags around you. obviously president zelenskyy has been an inspiring figure to the world with his public performance. what was your sense of how he is holding up there as you spent some time around him, and, as he says, how can he trust russia? just this morning foreign minister lavrov in an orwellian statement said, we did not attack ukraine, we are defending ourselves from ukraine. what did he make of that? >> reporter: well, just being in the bunker, being in the presence of this place that has been kind of the center of so much news coverage was really

extraordinary. just being -- seeing the process in which they defend the president there, seeing the process in which they go to so many measures to make sure it is secure was really impressive and quite interesting. for the most part our time with him, in talking with him was really telling. he was really tired. you could tell that he was really busy. you know, he was ferried in and out really quickly, surrounded by guards, surrounded by security. for the most part he seemed very honest. i think in many other interviews, in many other appearances you can tell he is media savvy. he is good at talking to the press. he is a comedian, he has done it for a long time. it was interesting to approach him not as a president but as just a person and somebody who has experience talking with people and has experience understanding. in terms of, like, the priorities that i think he was facing, you know, it was really interesting to talk to him about his relationship with nato and

the way that things are changing on that. obviously it has been weeks now that this war has been going on, and in that time i think he was -- it came across, you know, that he was a bit disappointed with the way that nato hasn't been supporting him or the lack of closing the skies, which he has been asking for for weeks now. so it was really interesting to kind of press him on these points and get that true and clear sense of the current state, his positions and his interests. >> yeah, he has been asking with increasing urgency in the last few days for that no-fly zone from nato which nato and the united states specifically say they're not going to provide at this point. ben, you also spent some time in southern ukraine in the city of odesa. residents there preparing to fight for their homes like so many ukrainians across the country by building molotov cocktails. i want to take a look at that. >> reporter: i'm here in odesa, ukraine, at a molotov cocktail factory. it is a bomb factory.

everyone is chipping in to make thousands of these. there's instructions from the government on how to use them. we've seen online clips, like photos and diagrams of the best place to throw them at russian tanks and armored personally carriers. it is pretty amazing to see these people coming together and learning how to make this factory of munitions out of anything they can. these are not going to stop the missiles, they're not going to stop the big attacks but the people here want to be able to do what they can. >> ben, as you saw up close, it has been remarkable to see how regular citizens, civilians of the country, whether they're 18 years old or 80 years old lining up to get a rifle, or women who dropped their children in poland and are coming back to rally around this. it is not going to stop what you saw coming from the air, for example, attacking the maternity hospital in mariupol. >> reporter: yes, across the

country -- we have been here since almost the beginning of the invasion now. across the country what is most impressive and what is most inspiring is just the unity of the ukrainian people that are here. people are really trying their best to find ways to fight. we have yet to meet people that were on the fence. we have yet to meet people that felt a little weird about where their position. i mean everyone here is trying anything they can. just yesterday we spent time on the edge of a city that's been in the news lately as it has been shelled a lot of russian forces and it is a center of fighting. now people are evacuating out and it is a harrowing scene with thousands of people streaming out. what we saw there amongst a really dark moment is a lot of ukrainians just trying to come together to support the people however they can, volunteers, paramedics, former government officials that were taking up arms and just trying to help people across this river. i mean all across the country

you are finding people that are not afraid and that are really dedicated to fighting. it has been an inspiration and it has been something that i think has been really powerful to show the world. >> following the lead of the man you spoke to, president zelenskyy. vice news correspondent ben solomon bringing the war to us up close. thanks so much for doing it. please stay safe there, ben. you can watch more of ben's interview with president zelenskyy tonight on "vice" tv. coming up we will go live to the ukrainian border for an update on the unfolding crisis in eastern europe. plus the former ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch joins us. we are back in just two minutes.

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all right. it is the top of the hour, and our breaking news coverage continues. the first high-level peace talks between russia and ukraine end this morning with no break through. after meeting his russian counterpart in turkey this

morning, the ukraine's foreign minister said russia seeks surrender, not a cease-fire. russia's top diplomat, sergey lavrov, made false claims about the maternity hospital that was bombed in mariupol, this morning claiming there were no patients inside. that belies the evidence which includes images of pregnant women in labor being carried out on stretchers. there was some success getting civilians to safety yesterday. ukraine says more than 40,000 people were evacuated from five locations. seven humanitarian corridors were opened this morning, but right now mariupol remains blocked. civilians can't get out and aid can't get in. vice president kamala harris is in warsaw right now amid a diplomatic fall-out between the u.s. and poland over how to get

aircraft to ukraine. the two countries will focus on how to better get aid to ukraine while leaving the specifics to the military officials. this as president zelenskyy calls on the west to do more. >> a russian airstrike hit a maternity hospital drawing international condemnation that civilians still are being targeted. at least three people were killed and 17 injured when a series of blasts rocked the hospital complex yesterday, shattering windows and ripping away part of the building. rescue workers rushed to the scene to evacuate victims, carrying out at least one pregnant woman on a stretcher. the attack also caused this crater outside the hospital that's at least two stories deep. president zelenskyy condemned the strike, calling it an atrocity, adding a children's hospital, a maternity hospital, how did they threaten the russian federation? zelenskyy said several people including children were trapped

under the debris. the attack comes amid efforts to evacuate civilians in that city. the deputy mayor there said yesterday more than 1,100 civilians have been killed so far with many now being buried in mass graves. mariupol has been without food, water and electricity for more than a week now. ukrainian officials have called the city in the city catastrophic. we also received video of this fiery blast overnight. the mayor of another city in northern ukraine said bombs fell on two hospitals yesterday including a children's medical center. the world health organization now says there have been at least 20 attacks on ukrainian health facilities since the invasion began. again, mika, as you pointed out sergey lavrov at that meeting today and other officials have waved off and sort of dismissed what we are seeing, what the world is seeing with its own eyes at that hospital saying, no, actually it was a base for ukrainian soldiers. again, no evidence for that.

>> of course, just the lies continue and that's what they do. i'm curious. we look at these pictures, katty kay, and there's been a reaction in the united states obviously. you look at public opinion polls and they're breaking towards americans doing much more. but i'm curious, could you talk about the reaction in britain? the reaction across europe, how visceral is it there? >> i think visceral is the word. people are really angry. they're terrified of seeing images that our parents saw, that my parents lived through, again on our television screens in this century. we those it was europe in the last century. we didn't think it was going to happen again. i don't know anyone really in the uk who has not donated to ukraine. i know people who have taken vans and driven to ukraine. the british government is concerned that there are british soldiers who are meant to be on duty who have suddenly gone awol

in their duties in the uk. they're concerned they've turned up in ukraine. 13,000 forces have turned up in ukraine to join the fight, most are european. there's a lot of pressure on the government, on boris johnson to do more, to take in refugees. >> we saw johnson yesterday finally, finally moving on some high-level oligarchs. >> abramovich, the owner of chelsea, this might be good news for liverpool supporters and city supporters in my household, not good news if you are a chelsea support he have, finally moving on abramovich. this is coming from the bottom up, this pressure for governments to do more because people are really angry about what they're seeing. >> angry. and, david, it is important for us to remember, again, katty's parents grew up with scenes like

this. mika's parents obviously chased out of central europe, of eastern europe, and now europeans are seeing this unfold again on their television set. this looks so much like 1941, 1942 that it really has shaken europe to its core. >> people in europe feel that passion in their hearts. i just was traveling in europe over the last week and down every street that you drive in poland, in lithuania, in latvia, in estonia, you see ukrainian flags. they're everywhere. you see banners calling putin a war criminal. a polish friend of mine i had dinner with last friday night said to me he had taken in ukrainian refugees. he doesn't have a big house. he said, this is who we are as pols. the tradition of resistance is at the center of our national story and we can't watch this

and not do something. it is just what katty was saying. people feel they have to help. that same feeling doesn't seem to be as passionate in the united states, but as we watch more of these images of maternity hospitals getting bombed maybe people will feel more of that. i'm telling you, europe is aflame with the spirit that president zelenskyy has ignited, and people in europe are demanding now that we do more to help them. >> we're joined by msnbc contributor mike barnicle. white house bureau chief at "politico" and host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. and former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch. she has a new memoire coming out next week entitled "lessons from the edge" in which she discusses her 33 years in foreign service. we appreciate your coming on the show this morning. we would love your insight on the situation in ukraine, what you think is possible in terms of getting the ukrainians what they need without triggering a

world war? >> well, i think that is the very question. how do we provide more support, how do we help save ukraine without expanding the conflict in a way that would be very detrimental to all of us. nobody wants to push putin over the edge, but i think all of us -- and i would think here in the united states pass well if you look at public opinion polling, we all want to help ukraine. we have the means to do so, to stop or at least mitigate the carnage that we are seeing in ukraine, and i think most people do want to help some more. so i think that's a really important thing. what we can't do is let putin set the conditions for this conflict. he is in a country that is not his own, that he invaded, that the ukrainians did not invite him to come to as you just heard zelenskyy say. he is not even acknowledging

that there's actually a war there, so we cannot let him set the conditions. there is risk and we need to mitigate that risk. i think that -- you know, that is the really challenging part of this. i would also just note that not responding robustly to somebody like putin also bears risk. you know, we saw that putin invaded in georgia in 2008, in ukraine in 2014. he got away with that, and we can't let him get away with it now. >> so we're just going to interrupt just a moment and go live to warsaw where vice president kamala harris is speaking now alongside the polish president. >> -- that span generations. so through all of that and in the spirit of those relationships and our shared commitments, our shared commitment to the importance of international norms and rules, you and i discussed today many important topics, in particular as it relates to the eastern flank. and we talked specifically about

what we care deeply about in terms of our commitment, the united states' commitment to article five. i have said it many times, i will say it again. the united states commitment to article five is iron clad. the united states is prepared to defend every inch of nato territory. the united states takes seriously that an attack against one is an attack against all. we are here today to restate that commitment, but also to do what we must do to reinforce our support of poland and our allies through the eu and nato alliance. particularly as relates to troop deployment, we have deployed an additional 4,700 american troops

to poland, that's on top of the years of rotation of about 5,000 troops of americans in poland. we are pleased to announce this week we have directed two patriot missile defense system to poland, and today i can announce we have delivered those patriot systems to poland. we do this as a reminder and as a demonstration of our commitment to the security of our allies and our commitment in particular to poland at this moment in time. as it relates to the president obama of ukraine, they have suffered immensely. when we talk about humanitarian aid it is because just the assistance is they, but what compels us also is the moral outrage that all civilized nations feel when we look at what is happening to innocent

men, women, children, grandmothers, grandfathers, who are fleeing everything they've done. our outrage, which compels not only our security assistance but our humanitarian assistance, is rooted in the fact that also we support the people of ukraine who have shown extraordinary courage and skill in their willingness and, yes, ability to fight against putin's war and russia's aggression. so today we are also announcing in pursuit of what must happen, which is to provide humanitarian assistance, that we will give another $50 million -- the united states will -- through the u.n.'s world food program to

assist with humanitarian aid. the president and i also talked about the fact that as he mentioned poland has taken in just a very short amount of time in excess of 1.5 million ukrainians into poland. that has been an extraordinary burden on poland and the people of poland. we will continue with the support that we can give you, mr. president, in terms of the work that you and the people of poland have been doing to bear this burden but in a way that really has been with such grace and such generosity. we also are pleased to have shared with the president what our united states congress has done, which is there is a commitment now of $13.6 in human -- humanitarian and security assistance that will be -- >> so, david ignatius, kamala

harris announcing something that many military people did not think we would provide to the ukrainians, and that is patriot missile systems that have already been delivered to poland, which, of course, will go through the corridor you were talking about. talked obviously about the troop strength that we've been supporting and that -- and it talked about the moral outrage that all civilized nations feel against vladimir putin and russia and the $50 million that the united states is giving to the u.n. food program for relief for the ukrainians and also talked about the $13 billion in both humanitarian and military aid. and, appropriately, talked about the extraordinary assistance that the polish people, the polish government has provided to the ukrainians, 1.5 million refugees going across borders,

and talked about the aid that the united states would be providing to poland. just the herculean efforts that they have been providing, it really is -- we should just stop for a minute. it really is something that for a government that over the past five years the united states has had somewhat mixed record with. a rough relationship because of the law and justice party. it is remarkable how poland in these dire times, in these dark times proving to be really one of our most steadfast allies. >> poland has stepped up as an ally. president duda has stepped up. president duda has moved i think somewhat more to the center my polish friends tell me. it is good to see america's vice president on the scene in poland, speaking as one of our top executives only can, vice

president or president, on behalf of the american people to the people who were suffering in this crisis. i thought that was good. it is good that she went out there. it is good she was bringing some new offers of aid. there is a desire that the united states open the gates more, provide more and more. that's something that the administration will have to deal with. that was just -- i want to say it was a good moment for kamala harris to be representing the united states in this crisis. >> you have a question for the ambassador? >> ambassador, i have read your book and enjoyed it. i have to tell you, reading your book and thinking about this terrible war in ukraine it made me all over again that you were fired by president trump because you weren't cooperating with their political agenda which ended up including in effect, demanding that they give political support in exchange

for the weapons we now know they desperately needed. talk a little bit about that. that story is embedded in your book and i know our viewers would love to hear about it. >> it is. so the matter of trading security assistance, providing security assistance to ukraine for a personal favor for president trump, that actually occurred after i left. that was in august, several months after i laeft. i think the problem there is that it not only emboldened putin because he could see what the view of president trump was toward ukraine, towards president zelenskyy, but it also emboldened others who could see that this was an administration that was ready to trade our national security for personal and commit cal favors and, you know, people paid attention, not only in the united states but in

other countries as well, very dangerous to undermine our national security in that way. >> madam ambassador, while you were in that position you, of course, came into contact with president zelenskyy of ukraine. what did you see then that made you think -- did you think that he could rise to the moment that he has now in the midst of this war? >> so i met him as a candidate and i met him a number of times. you know, he was a finney guy, a comedian, very talented. he's also a business executive, created a multi-million dollar media empire. he was very proud of that and wanted us to know that. then improbably he becomes president, sort of life imitating art. he has been doing yeoman's work, trying to move ukraine forward, and that never happens on a straight line, as you know. all of a sudden russia invades.

i think the man has met the moment, grown into the job. he has inspired his nation and inspired the world. >> you personally, madam ambassador, have a truly rich, uniquely american story. your parents pled the nazis, fled europe, came to america with nothing. you were raised in connecticut in the heart of new england. you are wearing today a flag lapel pin, the ukraine flag and the american flag. >> that's right. >> you witness each and every day the destruction of the country that you dearly love, that is part of you. talk to us about your feelings for ukraine, the sense of nationalism and patriotism that has been reborn throughout europe, and do you think it is infectious enough to come to america and make us realize more

so in the concepts of liberty and freedom and how quickly they can be lost. >> thank you for mentioning my parents. in my boom i wanted to honor my parents. they came here as immigrants. like so many immigrants in american they believed in hard work, in going to church, in leading good and virtuous lives. they did that and they brought up me and my brother. and they were always so grateful to the united states for providing them a home where they could live in liberty and live their own lives without fear because they had known that in the past. so when i, too, look at these images in ukraine, which i never thought i would see in europe either, but it reminds me of some of the stories that my parents told me of, you know, fleeing from bombs and trying to remake their lives and how hard and how devastating that is. when i talk to my ukrainian friends every single one of them has a target on their back. that is devastating to me but

even harder for them. they are determined. they are going to fight -- they are fighting back now. whatever happens, they will continue that fight whether they are working in an under bunker in kyiv get the trains ready, to get refugees out of the country, whether they are helping people in hospitals and vafrous other areas, whether they are taking their children to safety in western ukraine or further west in poland and other countries. it is remarkable. i think that the spirit of the ukrainian people has really inspired all of us. i think it inspires the u.s., too. i think it does inspire the american people. >> ambassador, please stay with us. we want to continue this conversation. we want to break for a moment to go to turkey, the site of this morning's high-level talks between russia and ukraine. cnbc news anchor hadleyly gamble

is there. hadley, you spoke with ukrainian's minister this morning. what did he tell you out of this talks? >> reporter: i did indeed, willie. thanks so much for coming to me this morning. basically where we are this morning is nowhere. the ukrainian foreign minister coming in hoping to get potentially a cease-fire as well as humanitarian corridors as well as a home they could move forward in some kind of a negotiation. we heard from president zelenskyy in the last 24 hours essentially suggesting nato membership might be open to negotiations. he has essentially said nato has no right for conflict, perhaps it isn't the right time for ukraine to become a part of nato. there are a lot of reasons but the main one being that the eu is backing off of sanctions, and that has to do with their energy sector that is very much

dependent on russian oil and gas. ukrainian's foreign mind stead minister he was deeply surprised everything he asked whether it be the humanitarian corridors, whether the idea we could get to a cease-fire, the russian foreign minister said actually i can't answer those questions. i have to take it back to the kremlin. listen to what i said when i asked specifically what the ukrainians would be willing to give up to get a cease-fire. i'm talking about the idea of guarantees about the southeastern areas of turkey, and i'm also talking about the idea when it comes to crimea ukraine has floated the idea they would be willing potentially to say it is still a part of our country but not necessarily fight for it. listen. >> territorial integrity of ukraine is not a bargaining chip. things can depend on time, on the specific format of how we reintegrate these territories

but we are not abandoning any single piece of our territory. the president has been very clear on that. it is true though that priority number one today is to stop the war and to make russia withdraw its forces. we will win because it is our land, it is our people. >> reporter: you know, this is a very, very different ukrainian administration, if you will, or tone from the ukrainians we have seen earlier in the conflict. a big chunk of that is because they realize that the eu is suffering sanctions fatigue. i mentioned the energy idea, the sanctions that the united states and canada has placed on russian imports of oil. the question, of course, i asked the foreign minister is you understand that the eu can't get along without imports of russian oil and gas, what more do you expect them to do for you? he was becoming very pragmatic at this point. he said, listen, i believe there are more sanctions, more work that needs to be done, and when president putin says it isn't hurting his economy he is living

on another planet. >> and the man he was negotiating across from today said with a straight face, we did not attack ukraine in the first place. hadley gamble for us in turkey. thank you so much. ambassador yovanovitch, knowing what you know about vladimir putin, knowing what you know about russia, knowing what you know about president zelenskyy and the ukrainian people, what is the best case scenario here in terms of an outcome for the war? on the other hand, what is the worst fear you have about what could happen? >> well, i think, you know, the worst fear is that putin doubles down and there is no way forward. but i'm a diplomat, so i believe there is always a way forward, and i think it is a good sign that even though sergey lavrov, who is not in putin's inner circle, was unable to bring anything to the table today that the ukrainian and russian sides are continuing to talk and will continue to talk. i think that we need to look for more ways to find -- to make

dialogue possible. perhaps not only between those two countries but with the west, perhaps with china, with other countries as well. because here is what i know. putin can never win in ukraine. maybe the russians can dominate militarily but they're not going to win the peace. the ukrainian people will continue to resist. there will be a guerilla war. there will be civil disobedience. the cost to russia will be very, very high and unsustainable in the end. >> ambassador marie yovanovitch, thank you very much for your insights this morning. her new memoire, "lessons from the edge," is out next week. we appreciate your being on. david, we heard from turkey, a growing realism on the side of the ukrainians. we are starting to hear growing realism on the sense of the

russians, but certainly not from lavrov there. but signals are starting to be sent that this is a lose/lose situation. >> it is beginning to signal for both sides that the current situation, where it is heading is intolerable. both sides are going to suffer damage that will be extraordinary. so it is not surprising that they're beginning to talk, that they're beginning to suggest what might be the contours of a negotiation. others are interested. the chinese, i'm told, are really unhappy with the way things are going. our top diplomats have been talking with chinese diplomats in recent days. the israelis who have a special relationship with putin have been talking with putin, so there are a lot of things in the air. >> briefly before we go to break let's talk about china for a second, because somebody i know

and respect yesterday had said -- said, well, the chinese are just fine with this. they're completely fine because the russians, we depended on them. the chinese, it was about as wrong headed of an assessment as i have ever heard. russia, again, going back to dr. brzezinski, and he is right, just like putin, they lose if the status quo is maintained. that was the case in 1950. this was the case in 1970, 1980. it is the case now because they don't want to be america's junior partner. i spoke to a russian diplomat who before the war broke out said, "this isn't about ukraine, this is about you all being at the center of this global world order. why should we and china put up with it?" well, it is a global order that the chinese have maniacally been focused on dominating for 30 years, and now that they're at a point where they're in a position where they can start

dominating, putin is setting it on fire. anybody who thinks that xi wants that to happen with their growth throwing down really needs to get outside of their apartment and see the world more. this is a nightmare for china. >> china is integrated in the world economy, needs the economy to function dynamically, to keep growing and prospering. the chinese like a more ordered world. they do like to have their hand on the controls, but they like a more ordered world than vladimir putin is bringing them. i think they are beginning to exert subtle pressure on russia. russia doesn't have -- what have they got? belarus. >> right. >> if china really begins to pressure russia toward the settlement, that will be a decisive factor. >> katty, what happens when america and the west starts focusing on the horrific war crimes and the human rights violations that we've sort of

pushed to the side with rush, what do you start thinking? wait a second, what is going on in china? suddenly, all of these things pushed conveniently to the side people start focusing on because if you are seeing human rights violations and war crimes happening in front of you, you start asking, what if there were cameras. what if we could see what is unfolding in china right now, and they know that. they don't want transparency. vladimir putin is -- >> opening this all up. >> -- opening up everything for china and the world. >> what potentially could happen in taiwan were china to decide that they were going to try to take taiwan. i had a conversation about two weeks ago before the invasion of ukraine with a chinese economist based in hong kong who was saying, look, it is part of xi's legacy within the next five or six years he will take taiwan. he was very convinced that was on xi's list of to-do things,

high up on xi's list of to-do things. in the last two weeks, if this had gone well, had gone to plan, the prospect of china going to taiwan would be up there. how would he do it now? >> it is hard to explain. historians will look back and be completely baffled why vladimir putin was such a fool he actually caused division between the eu and america and that china was ready to exploit that gap, and he has just brought us all together in a way we haven't been brought together since world war ii. >>. it has not gone as planned. you are right, china loved the separation they were starting to see between the united states and germany, the united states and france, the united states and the eu. putin has destroyed this for xi. he's right now looking like an idiot brother to them. >> right. >> so putin is rebuilding butter

than it seemed in disagree. you know, the transatlantic alliance, the things we thought were gone are back and back in a way that i haven't seen the dynamic -- >> he has brought this bi polar war. >> imagine how hard it would be to take taipei. it is a huge city that is protected by a maritime strat. the chinese are waking up to the reality, if the russians are having this much trouble, holy smokes, how do we invade across the strait and in an acceptable time period being able to take. in a way the outcome is the opposite of what was predicted, that it would pave the weigh for the era. we are going live to the border with ukraine. the country has taken 1.3

million ukrainians. for context, that's the entire population of dallas. a live report of the growing humanitarian crisis straight ahead. plus, the fight for ukraine goes beyond the battlefield. we will talk to a man doing his part to stop the spread of misinformation. our coverage continues when "morning joe" returns.

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♪♪ we've been talking this morning about mariupol, but the situation is dire across ukraine in a number of cities. the mayor of kherson, first city to come under russian occupation, telling nbc news the scene there is, quote, close do catastrophic. the mayor said the city is short on food and fuel, adding, "our supplies are shortening, we have no medicines left." the mayor accrued the russians of arresting pro ukrainian

activists. he said russian soldiers are setting up check points and robbing apartments and vehicles. 2.2 million ukrainians have left the country and travelled do bordering nations. 1.3 million are in poland, hundreds of thousands have fled to hungary, slow vauk yeah, moldova and romania and other countries. joining us from the polish border, nbc news correspondent kelly cobiella. kelly, you are at another border crossing. what does it look like there today? >> reporter: willie, this is a very small border crossing. just in the distance where you see the red tents is actually the ukrainian side of the border. in order to get to that point refugees have to walk the last six miles, and in spite of that about 1,000 people are coming to

this border crossing every day. where i'm standing here, this used to be an empty field two weeks ago. the local town, a town of about 13,000, they've set up all of this. there's an information tent right there. here you see the united nations giving information. there's a world central kitchen where people can get a hot meal. back in the distance here you have tents just piled high with donations, warm clothes, strollers, diapers, baby food, more places to get food here. and then down this stretch is a row of tents, not very many. there are only about six of them there, but they're a warm place for people to just take a break, get -- have their kids get a bit of a rest, get warm for a moment before they decide where they go next. you mentioned those astounding numbers, and we are seeing it again. there's no let-up in the number of people who are coming here. 22,000 people in poland alone by

7:00 this morning. the problem is as these numbers grow, every single day, there's just not enough space. there are not enough beds for people to sleep more than a night or two. people can't stay out here in a field in the middle of nowhere. they need to get someplace that's a little bit more secure. some local officials are trying to find beds, but we are talking about shelters that will hold 600 or 800 or maybe a few,000 when 22,000 are coming just by 7:00 in the morning. we spoke to a grandmother, 72 years old, a couple of days ago. she has relatives in the united states, a son and a grandson. she would like to go there, but at this point she doesn't know how to get there and her family doesn't know how to bring her over either. willie, a lot of people have told us if they're going to leave their homes they want to be with friends and family, but it doesn't appear there's a clear path for a lot of people to take to get there, particularly when it comes to

the united states and countries outside of europe. willie. >> heartbreaking stories, but as you have been showing us for weeks incredible work by poland to absorb bringing in and care for all of the people coming across the border. nbc's kelly cobiella on the polish side of the ukrainian border. thanks so much. coming up next here, tech companies have rallied to defend ukraine online. we will be joined by a ukrainian who says he is trying to reach people in russia with the truth. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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served as a translator for former ukrainian president was originally going to join us but he has learned his mother-in-law was evacuated and is picking her up. tell us what you have accomplished. >> thank you for having me. what we have to acknowledge is this is a hybrid war we are in, sews basically apart from all of the terror and aggression that is happening on the ground there's also a lot of power that's aimed at both ukrainian citizens and at russians that basically tries to brain wash people. a lot of people in russia are not aware of the horrors that the russian troops are

committing here in ukraine. i have heard stories from my friends and colleagues who have relatives in russia or crimea, they simply don't believe them. they don't believe the people here in ukraine who are saying there's a war going on. while they say, you know, it is a special operation and basically you ukrainians are the ones bombing everything. it cannot be russians because we're the good guys, definitely. so this is one of the key problems that we're trying to fight. basically, currently as of today our efforts yield very little impact because what we were actively doing for the last couple of days, the last weeks was to create ads and content on facebook, i mean the company i work for.

there are a lot of other companies like ours. we would just spend money to run ads on facebook and instagram that would show people in russia what is actually happening here. so we tried to make them believe that the war is really going on here and that they need to do something about it because they are also responsible and they have to do something about it. >> dmytro, thank you for joining us. >> yes, please go on. >> i want to ask you more specifically, we certainly have anticipation that russia would be able to sort of win the propaganda or cyber warfare in the early stage goes of this war. that's not been the case. the ukrainians have done a tremendous job getting out the messaging. tell us in particular the messages, the videos we are seeing from a daily basis, sometimes more than once a day from president zelenskyy, what impact they've had and how have companies like yours been able to sort of amplify them to keep

ukrainians rallies? >> oh, yeah. these messages are very powerful. president zelenskyy is doing an incredible job at united all ukrainians. everybody is watching his speeches that usually go live in the morning and in the evening, and those speeches definitely drive the morale of everybody here, because everybody just -- we acknowledge that we need to fight this war and there is no way back for us. so we also -- while we do one of the other front lines of our activity, which is to create content and articles aimed at people in the west who -- where we also transmit how people can help the ukrainian cause, we

also run -- we are currently launching a new fund-raising campaign for humanitarian needs here in ukraine. basically the main message here i guess is that companies and people in ukraine are fighting with all test. in some cases companies like ours, we invest, it's not like we invest. we donate a lot of money for humanitarian needs as well as for the anti-propaganda activities. >> all right. demetro, thank you very much for joining us at this hour. now to an overwhelmingly bipartisan support, house lawmakers have voted to pass a bill backing president biden's executive order banning russian oil. last night, the house passed a measure by a margin of 414-to-17. the bill bans the import of

russian oil and energy to the united states and moves to review russia's participation with the world trade organization. the impact on gas prices was almost immediate. as of yesterday, the average for a gallon of gas hit $4.25. nearly $2 more than it was a year ago. joining us, former white house director of communications president obama director of hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign. jennifer palmieri, co-host of "the circus" on showtime, good to have you on with us. good morning. >> thank you for being here. i wanted to ask you about president biden and how he has walked americans through this from the beginning, constantly getting intel from the russians, telling americans and it's unfolded, nobody was shocked by the invasion. and you could say the same thing about the gas prices. it's always been a slow roll. my saying in politics is, never

surprise anybody. >> mm-hmm. >> people will say my vice president been -- never surprise people, let them know what's coming. biden has done that. i think it's shown a remarkable bipartisan support for so many things in this war. >> yeah, i think this is, these kind of moments in presidencies are a test of leadership. so i think what i think for obama and biden now what can i convey to the american people in this moment that's going too help my standing with them. so, i think what he has shown people is he's competent. right. that is a big deal of afghanistan, in particular. and credibility. not such a big deal right now, but there is so much different information and to share all of that information about russia as it's coming to say to the people, prepare for bad news, you know, not trying to spin them. that adds a lot to hess standing and he's shown, that he's able to rally the west.

he has shown she able to rally republicans to a cause. these are things we are not sure was possible and i think that you know these moments are fleeting. the union bounces, they call it a bounce. you go up, you go down, are fleeting. commander-in-chief moments are neating. are you laying down, building up your credible? building up your she'd e leadership standings so that coming out of this you are in a better position to lead at large. >> he is building up the leaders within his administration. he's deployed lloyd austin, general milley, tony blimpen, this morning, vice president kamala harris on the ground in warsaw announcing deliverables to patriot systems and 50 many hill in humanitarian aid. he is making sure that the outreach is more than available to the area in need. >> yeah. this is -- it is, i mean, i was -- it's quite a deployment of

forces. we had general millie on the polish border last week. we had blinken in the baltic states, vice president is over there now. so it is -- you know, first of all, that's a message, you can look at that two ways, that's a message to russia. it's a message to the allies. it's a message to the american people, these are things out of their control. it can all go badly. gas prices could continue to rise, it's great that right now americans are all rallying saying we're happy, bead be he'd be willing to pay more, that may falter memorial day weekend. so i think if are you thinking, what am i putting in the bank now na is going to at least have the american people feel like he has been straight forward with them. these are reenforcing core biden assets. you know, attributes, she's

competent. he will be straight forward and on the side of the american people. you know, they've demonstrated. they've failed as if they were terribly wrong. they have demonstrated. >> very transparent. >> very transparent. >> a counter as you said to afghanistan, which didn't look thought out. something that joe biden wanted to do since 2009 here we have the situation, mike, where bipartisan foreign policy voices are saying this is the most extraordinary alliance put together by the united states and allies since george h.w. bush in the first gulf war, bush 41 in the first gulf war. >> yeah. to jen's point on that, what president biden has done i think firmly solidly, he's established himself as being not only competent by confident in his pulling together a group of nations, the european nations that have not been pulled together in a long, long time.

jen to joe's point about success in politics means never surprising your constituents, sort of tell them what you think is ahead. we haven't even begun the get i. one of the few things we still do together as a nation is lean back against the car. put the gas pump into the automobile and watch those numbers float up so what do democrats do to prepare this country for the distinct possibility that by memorial they we'll be paying $5.5 dollars, maybe $6 a gallon for gasoline. >> you see the president doing that basically every time he speaks. you know to say that this is -- also he puts it in the context of, this is our piece of the sacrifice to lean into the fact that americans are rallying around this, rallying around this cause. but even so i think the white house is very realist ig that,

you know, high gas prices are an existential threat. they feel great someing out of the state of the union. you want to do more things to put on the board, other things you can do to show people you are trying to lower their costs and hope by the time you get to the summer people are feeling better. one of the best things i thought coming out of the state of the union in a poll, people were feeling optimistic. that is like a really big deal. people are feeling optimistic. so much of what's holding biden back is people's anxiety. by the time you get to the fall, it could be in a good place. the credibility being transparent about what you know, what you were expecting. that helps them a lot. >> jen palmieri. thank you so much for coming on. and jonathan lemire, before we go to break, you have an announcement this morning on the book that you have been working on. tell us about it. >> understand that, mika.

. . faumpg, mika. the big lie, the state of american politics 2020. there is the cover right there. lit will be out july 26th. it faces former president trump's voter fraud, how he spent years undermining institutions and hijacking the republican party to set the stage for 2020. the story doesn't end there. the book has brand-new reporting how it has shaped the biden white house and their battle for voting rights both in washington. we are seeing it play out in the states. the republican legislatures trying to restrict access to the ballot and this lie, this story will define in many ways both the 2022 mid-terms and 2024 presidential election. it is available for pre-order now on amazon and everywhere else. it is the battle for democracy, the perfect summer beach reading. >> and it is, catty, i note something about this. jonathan, we are very excited about this. you know, we've talked about how

the trump rite has been shattered. you have people fighting now, a few still pushing conspiracy theories about vladimir putin. but for the most part, the trump rite sounding more like the reagan rite. so there has been a divide here. i find it very instructive, though, too, when you look at the massive lies being told by the russians, where life and death is at stake, you trace that back to what we have been seeing and a lie is a lie is a lie. and you see what the end game is if these lies, this misinformation, the firehood of false hosted we've seen from donald trump. if that's allowed to take root in western democracy and grow, the end game is very ugly, indeed. >> i mean, i don't think that other countries don't watch what is happening in the united states and take away lessons from it.

they've done that over the last five years. vladimir putin went into ukraine because he had his own agenda and time table for going into ukraine. but the kind of divisions we've seen in the west. what happened during donald trump's presidency. the lie about the election, the way we have turned on each other over the coronavirus, for example. it doesn't help. it hasn't helped the west feel strong. maybe something that will come out of this and they said it yesterday is a sense of patriotism about pleuralism. and we could feel strong and good in democracies. >> from the ukrainians. >> we are e-learning it from the ukrainians. >> jonathan lemire, thank you for your coverage. we will be seeing your next report. in a moment, with will speak to for bob menendezmenendez. first day 15 of russia's unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation. vice president kamala harris spoke from poland in the last

hour to reassure the nato allies as russia steps up attacks in ukraine. she said the outpouring of security and humanitarian assistance is a sign of the moral outrage around the world. later today, she is expected to meet with some of the more than 1 million ukrainians who have fled to poland. the first high-level talks between the two sides ended with no break through. russia's foreign minister accused the west of being too quote emotional over a maternity hospital that was bombed yesterday. he falsely claimed there were no civilians inside, despite images of pregnant women, women in labor, being carried out on stretchers. ukraine's foreign minister says russia denied this request for a 24-hour cease-fire. seven humanitarian corridors opened this morning after some 40,000 ukrainians were able to

safely evacuate yesterday. despite the corridors, a worsening crisis is unfolding in ukraine and russian forces are slowly closing in on the capital of kiev. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard eng emhas the latest. >> reporter: on the outskirts of kiev, we followed ukrainian forces deep into irpin. then on foot and searching for an abandoned car that still has sful and keys, we drove into this small superb that is now a vital front line. many people have left because of the fighting and that's created opportunities for looters. ukrainian forces detain a group of them. they have been stealing alcohol. the local mayor won't stand for it. the looters were loaded into a bread truck to be handed over to police. how long can you keep them pack? >> the easiest way to kiev is

through irpin. we are holding on here after two weeks of fighting. they only have part of the estimate ukrainian troops so far are doing well on the ground. they are struggling with russian airstrikes like the one yesterday on the children's maternity hospital in mariupol. pregnant women were helped out of the building. russia denied the strike. they have had mariupol surrounded for days. bake supplies have run out. >> we don't have anything to eat we have no medicine. we have nothing, this man says, ukraine is just the beginning of a new more deadly and indisskrim nant phase of this war. >> in the future, it will be too late. believe me, believe me, if it's prolonged this way, yes, you will see, they will close but we

will lose millions of people. >> reporter: in mariupol. it reveals the sheer size of the bomb russia dropped, locked in and under fire, they are now laying victims to rest in mass graves here, evoking a past europe thought it had also buried. >> let's bring in the chairman of the foreign relations committee senator bob menendez of new jersey. you said earlier this week, they were providing fighter jets to ukraine. where do we stand this morning on that? obviously, poland and the united states, this seems to be the one issue we haven't lined up on shoulder-to-shoulder. >> good morning, joe. look, i think there are still efforts to find ways to provide fighter jets to the ukrainians. i'm a little disconcerted by the

european command general who says that they have jets that they haven't flown and ka its that maybe there are issues with the airports or air fields for them to take off. but we need to do everything we can to find a way to help the ukrainians fight for their sky and to limit the consequences as we saw in the barbaric act yesterday in that hospital in mareiupol. >> it seems the i think so senate has been bipartisan for the most part. talk about what your committee's view currently is of the situation there and what the united states senate should do to continue in its aid to the ukrainians? >> well, i think we are, one, the american people poms i have seen suggest 70-to-75% of the american people support ukraine

in its struggle to preserve its freedom and we have been forward leaning on like my legislation that i call the mother of all sanctions, for which the administration to its credit has taken enormous elements of and put into effect. today i hope on the senate flash, we will pass a $13-plus billion bill that will give them more lethal assistance as well as we see for the pictures that just took place on your program. humanitarian assistance. i believe there will be strong bipartisan support for that as well. then finally, we need to keep finding every way to tighten the noose around putin's neck, so this barbaric war can stop. >> chairman menendez, good morning, obviously, president zelenskyy has been calling today and the last several weeks for a no-fly zone. he says close the skies to use

his term. that has been a non-starter a. pretty clear no from the united states and nato because of the implications of what that can lead to, an escalation that could turn into a world war. is there anything that can change your calculus on a no-fly zone, that might make you consider it? >> well, look, a no-fly zone sound anti-septic when we say let's put up a no-fly zone. obviously, it means the united states and nato would declare the skies over ukraine impossible for any other entity to enter. the only way in this case russia to enter and force that no-fly zone is for u.s. and nato fighter pilots to ward it off. and they failed to obey to ultimately strike it. once you do that are you in a war with russia i don't think the support of the american people extends to that.

our heart strings are tugged every day. you see the horrific pictures the fundamental questions, what is in the national interest and security of the united states is what has to be answered. at this point i don't see our ability to engage in a no-fly zone, especially when we don't have nato partners willing to engage with us. >> let's bring in the associate editor of the washington post, eugene washington. he joins us now. >> senator, the foreign minsters of ukraine met today in turkey. there was apparently no progress towards any sort of diplomatic or negotiated solution. how does this end? how does this end other than in a grinding programs of months long deadly punishment of the ukrainian people and is there

anything else the united states could be doing to alleviate this horrific suffering? >> well, you are right. it is horrific. i think that the world has largely come together in condemnation of putin and russia is a rather clear message. it also should be a clear message to china, which could play a more constructive role as china suggests it's walking down the middle. but all of its apparatus echoes the russian line on what's happening in ukraine. so we need to continue to keep this coalition together. we need to continue to make it move forward on the times of sanctions it affects, that it will continue to have such a consequence not only for putin but inside for the russian people that they will clamor. we need to get information into russia how many of russia sons have died already in this

unjustified war and begin the public unrest there. we need to continue to assist the ukrainians in both humanitarian and lethal assistance. but it will end when putin no longer can engage in a way for which there is no absolute loss for him. he will teak to find something for an off-ramp. whether or not that can be provided is a real question. otherwise, we are looking at a long-term consequence for the ukrainians in the first instance and a real strategic failure for russia and putin in so many different dimensions. the problem with that failure is too many lives get lost in the interim. >> mr. chairman, this broke on reuters an hour or so ago. china refused to supply russian airlines with aircraft parts. an official authority was quoted

by russian news agencies as saying on thursday after boeing andary bus halted supply of dpoents, so can we anticipate, are you hopeful that china will at some point start applying more pressure like this on the russians to go to the peace table? >> well, look, i certainly hope so part of what i have been advocating is a strategic full court press globally by the state department and our allies so that those countries that have not joined us either in the u.n. vote or in sanctioning russia seek to do so. and for china not to be able to get away with getting all sides, which is what it's trying to do at this point. it's a welcomed action by china, but there is a lot more they could do. if china isn't the want to have more ukrainian lives on its

hands, it has the wherewithal all to specifically of any country right now to influence putin in a way that might change his confidence. >> all right. chairman of the senate foreign relations committee, senator bob menendez, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. a growing number of international businesses are suspending their operations in russia in response to the country's invasion if you crane. their actions affecting hundreds of retailers, thousands of russian employees, amazon said yesterday, it had suspended shipments of retail products to customers in russia. it comes after iconic brands, including mcdonald's and starbucks said they were also stopping sales in that country him some of these companies say they will continue paying their russian employees, but it's not clear when they will reopen. lepts bring in former dep they national security adviser to

president obama ben rhodes. it's good to have you on the show, what are the best options for the united states, no-fly zones possibly off the list. we have kamala harris on the ground in warsaw, announcing some deliverables. what more could be down the line in terms of what the u.s. can do? >> well, i think right now they've put in place the allies of what's going to be their strategy. it's about really accelerating and amplifying the provision of the assistance to ukrainians, air defense strategies anti-tank weapons, the kind of things that will allow them to defend their cities. dealing with the enormous humanitarian crisis and really consolidating this total political and economic isolation of russia, which is having a very rapid toll, but will require really robust enforcement going forward to make sure that they're not

work-arounds into sanctions. you know, there is still more to be done on the sanctions front, too, in terms of europe producing its energy diplomacy on russian oil and gas. at this point that's really what we have before us is turning that pressure and accelerating that support for ukraine and seeing if that acts putin's calculus in diplomacy. >> gene robinson is with us. gene. >> i think we have to understand why the biden administration and across the spectrum is not as willing to try to enforce a no-fly zone or something like that. is there anything you can think of short of that that the united states could be doing? sanctions take a while to have effect. meanwhile, what we are seeing from ukraine is just unspeakable. is there anything more urgent you think we could be doing?

>> well, it's already interesting. we're in this gray space between the united states not being engaged in a war with russia and the united states taking direct military action against russians. and there are a lot of things you can do. we have done the economic aspects. because of how broad they are and the scale of the multi-lateral enforcement. you get into the provision of legal assistance. on top of that, questions around what can be done is more useful no them. questions around to make it easier for the ukrainians. all of the things are in the grey space of the united states involved in this conflict, not being a direct party to it. those will be coming in the weeks and times to come?

they want to know, how far do you want to turn that dial before you are steadily raising the risk of the united states being a part of this war. what joe biden has been able to do thus far is be clear in saying what he will do or won't do. what we have experienced in two weeks, we have much more behind than in the scale of sanctions and military support in ukraine. i think two weeks from now, we can be talking about a different menu of options that are again in that space short of the united states killing russians. it required us to do to set up no-fly zones. >> you have no experience in the case of iran. we are hearing again from sergei lavrov, the foreign minister of russia who is saying an or well yan and rejects the premise and the world knows the truth about

that. so how does a president zelenskyy, how does his government in good faith try to find a diplomatic solution. with those countries lying about everything that comes across his desk. >> this has been the challenge. you know, i had to deal with lavrov's urge, a part of efforts, obviously, in the obama years. if you would lie way part of his skill set is how easy it was for him to look in the face and lie to you. the reality is we were negotiating a lot of other difficult actors, authoritarian actors, whether it's iranians or cubans and others. but the capacity to know the person across the table. they may have used that you deplore, interests that you deplore. you have to be able to test what they do what they say. usually a conference building steps in the negotiation to test

that out. once they start drink on it, the atmosphere opposite up to what you can achieve, what is so 2ki689 since putin returned to the presidency. is they just lie, they'll commit to a cease-fire to violate it the next day. just to prove the point they don't care they lied. it's a part of what they want you to know. i think the approach has to be, look, there are these urgent humanitarian needs. we need diplomatic channels to raise these over and over again. hopefully cease-fires, tell us about things like the chernoble nuclear plant. how do we make sure this catastrophe doesn't escalate and not trust that russians will follow through, try to be attaching these short-term issues, on the bicker picture. which is where the united states would obviously be involved, you can determine from what your adversary is saying at the negotiation table if there is a

change in their position. is the russian maximalist positions around ukraine getting rid of its sovereignty, is that involved? i think when russia put out this statement in the negotiations, they wanted to see nona to member subpoena and crimea already beyond what zelenskyy would obviously agree to. those positions were less than putin's positions at the outsit of the war when it basically called for the de-naziification of the government and calling for wholesale removal of the existing political order, one replaced by russia. so you can sense that that's not far much for the ukrainians, it violates their sovereignty. you know by having that negotiation, conversations, you can say it's coming into focus. i don't see it right now to be honest. you have to keep the lines opened. >> ben rhodes, thank you.

we have the chelsea football club has been sanctioned by uk authorities. the british government this morning announcing abramovich is around seven russian businessmen added to its sanctions list as it pressures moscow over the invasion of ukraine. still ahead on "morning joe", millions of ukrainians are understandably fleeing their country right now. but imagine making a decision to go back in. coming up, we'll introduce to you some of those brave people on "morning joe." me of those bre on "morning joe.

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trade from lviv is slow. but it's made it. the carriages where full of passengers young and old. for now, calling this venue old. but this place is full of surprises because the train back into ukraine is full of fighting spirit. yanina is a teacher and a painter headed home to odesa, which she knows is in putin's sights now. >> we need to be strong. >> reporter: being strong means going home, even though it might be very dangerous? >> yes, of course. we have a good army. and i believe that our people ukrainians will win. >> reporter: in the middle carriage, there is a game of cards under way. one man is trying to cheat.

and for a brief moment, thoughts of war fade. a few seats down, we meet marsha. her husband and 6-year-old son are 800 miles to the east. she can't get to them so she's going to volunteer to help the war effort instead. >> when my family gets here, i fall. maybe i want hope for my family can see me or i can -- >> reporter: nearly five hours later, we reached lviv in western ukraine. a lot of people i have spoken to say they don't have any choice but to come back into ukraine. their families are here. they need to be here. whether they choose to leeven or

stay, ukrainians are under enormous pressure as the weight of the war bears down on them. nick martin, sky news, lviv, ukraine. still ahead, among ukraine's growing defense course. some of the premier ballerinas are trading the stage for the front lines. that story is next on "morning joe". our coverage continues. joe" our coverage continues

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on stage, their craft is defined by grace. but now some of ukraine's most prominent ballerinas a trading dance for defense, arming themselves against the russian military. aaron mclaughlin has the details. >> reporter: they're the butterflies of kiev performing for the final time in france. back home their country torn

apart by war. now some of ukraine's premier ballet dancers have swapped their tutus and slippers for guns and fatigues, putting their life's work on hold to defend their country. of course, i am scared, says this artist, i'm not a military person, i couldn't just sit on the side lines and observe. just days ago, he was a principle dancer in his prime. now a military paramedic. his wife is an artist and distant memory. >> i don't even think about ballet anymore, it seems like a different life. they said art prepared for for war. >> bali teaches you to have a strong spirit. she says her husband died on the front lines fighting in eastern ukraine. she says she's armed herself to perform her opportunity. >> i love to perform torque travel to come pack to ballet.

but the most important ting now is for the war to end with our victory. across ukraine, opera houses and theaters are closed. >> now is not time for performance on the stage. now we have performance on our street. we have a bombing. >> reporter: the last time he danced it was a night before the war began. now he is building anti-tank hedgehogs. do you think you will dance again? >> yes, for 100% i will dance again. >> reporter: they are standing by until they secure their freedom. >> that was nbc's aaron mclaughlin reporting. coming up, we will talk to the ceo of pfizer to create the first covid vaccine. and he'll also weigh in on his family's connection to ukraine and the spirit being shown by the people of that country. "morning joe" will be right back. country "morning joewi" ll be right back hey businesses! you all deserve something epic!

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welcome back to "morning joe." it is 37 past the hour. we have been showing images over past 15 days of families torn apart, trying to escape to the freezing cold, new journey to freedom to nowhere. because they don't know where they are going next. our next guest, his family zaepd the holocaust i know these moments have been triggering moments for him, from my family, from my mother who has been watching. joining us is the ceo of pfizer, his new book "moon shot" the nine-month race to make the impossible possible. it's about the vaccine albert.

it's good to have you on the show on a number of levels. i'd first like to talk to youant your reaction to what we are seeing on the news. it must be so visceral given your family history. >> it's terrible. it's terrible. and in a sense, a social directing the resilience of those people. it's david and goliath. still, they don't give up. it reminds me of my mother. she survived as you said. she never gave up because she learned nothing is impossible. >> when you think about that and your mother's story, and you see the resilience of the ukrainians under insurmountable odds. the freezing cold. the degradation. the maternity ward being blown up. do you have insight into this resilience, which is intub born

almost? >> no. it's heart breaking what we see. we see the good and the evil from one hand you see people doing things completely unjustifiably. on the other side, people rising to the occasion and doing things that they were thinking they wouldn't. so they are just standing up tall and they say we don't care. we will defend what is right. >> thank you for coming on to talk about your book "moonshot." we have been following the pfizer story. you talk about making the impossible.

>> well, there was a journey, a fight of good against what was dark times. this changed the course of history. not because of the benefits it brought to the war. to the u.s., the baltic nations in 2021. 1 million deaths were avoided. only in the u.s. or the economic value it brought to the country. 2.5 points gdp were created. i don't think people after ten years will remember. people are determined in 30 years will remember because that was a victory of ingenuity. it was what brought halt to the world suddenly something like a

miracle came out. this is what i wanted to make sure i recalled in this book because that will be a part of history. i want to make sure i set the record. >> we said many times the effort by you nothing short of miraculous. the speed with which you researched. you can put that into context? >> people talk about the testing required, the approvals that come with it. you can speak to the case and up against other vaccines we know about, how fast this was achieved? >> it was an unthinkable time. it usually takes ten years. you know, we didn't ask our people to do anything -- it

would still work out for us. i think pfizer was making 200 million doses every year for all the conflict in the war. i didn't ask them to make a new vvenlgs i ask them to make those doses. so they were false completely out of the box. they tried to reengineer the whole development. that will have significant consequences going forward. i don't think this achievement were stay home. we saw exactly the same. instead of doing a discovery if four months and ten years.

the heart disease, against so many medical means. >> thanks to that effort about you and so many others. we have been able to sort of move on with our lives because of that vaccine that you provided. there are wide swaths of the world, though, as you know that don't having a says to vaccines yet. they are still mired in this pandemic what can you say about distributing, manufacturing, getting vaccines to places that don't have as much as we do here in the united states. >> that was truly the first six months of last year. that was by numbers. both countries of the world have low national rates, for others, not because they are available. it is because they do not have infrastructure so they can

administer the vaccines. here in the u.s., it's made easy, you can do this. you are living in rural africa. you may have to walk one day-and-a-half. it's a terrible situation. we have to have it way, way higher, it's strictly related to the income level of the country, highly educated population. they follow science. low income countries, big population, not that well educated. they are victims of misinformation. so right now the african cities already asked and everybody else to stop sending vaccines. you know these countries they are completely free from the u.s. government, both from us. 1 billion doses. we don't make money. the u.s. government paid for

that and they give it for free. still i know they have problems to send the vaccine, because they cannot absorb them despite it's a small profit level. >> gene robinson. >> doctor, you have a unique vantage point. how do you see our future in the coronavirus. do you anticipate that we're all going to need periodic booster shots indefinitely? will it go away at some point? how do you the future? >> i think the most likely scenarios i don't think the virus will go away. nothing is certain. but it's not a scenario, it will not go away in the years to come. they will have one virus able to to be replicated. the one terrible thing we need to understand is we are living for a year with hundreds of viruses in our normal lives.

with this one we can do the same. the virus will be around. all we have to do is to be able to have a vaccine that will cover us and in case you get sick, a treatment and life can continue as before the pandemic in the years to come. we are trying to improve the vaccines we have right now. we are trying to make them, you can improve the efficacy. it's very high, but the durability. i think the ideal situation is to have a vaccine you need once a year. people are getting very tired with getting three or four doses and the compliance of people to get the boosters will go down unless it is once a year. >> chairman and ceo of pfizer, albert bourla, his new book "moonshot" inside pfizer's

nine-month impossible to make it possible. up next, leicester holt reporting on ukraine how regular civilians are fighting and defending their country. our continuing coverage in

only if the world will unite around ukraine. >> they are you united statesing around ukraine. >> they're not. it's still very -- but you can feel it only when you are here because the people from europe or usa, it's tough from ukraine, it's tough from the heart and you can't understand the details because you are not fighting here. and i understand why. and i don't want them to fight, but they can help. we are speaking about closing the sky. you can't decide to close or not

to close. you can't decide. if you are united against the nazism and this terror, you have to close. not me. don't wait me asking you several times, a million times close the sky. no. you have to phone us to our people who lost their children and say, sorry, we didn't do it yesterday, one week ago, we didn't push putin, we didn't speak with him at all, we didn't found -- find a dial-up with him, we did nothing. and it's true. yesterday, the world did nothing. i'm sorry, but it's true. >> we believe the best way to support ukrainian defense is by providing them the weapons and the systems they need most to defeat russian aggression. in particular, anti-armor and air defense. we, along with other nations,

continue to send them these weapons and we know they're being used with great effect. the slowed russian advance in the north and the contested air space over ukraine is evidence alone of that. the intelligence community has announced the transfer of migs to ukraine could be seen as escalatory and could increase the prospects of a military escalation with nato. >> the pentagon is standing firm that the u.s. will not help send fighter jets to ukraine from poland despite president zelenskyy's criticism of nato leaders over their refusal to close ukraine skies. vice president kamala harris spoke from poland last hour. she said the outpouring of security and humanitarian assistance is a sign of the moral outrage around the world. pentagon spokesperson john kirby yesterday also said u.s. intelligence does not believe adding more jets would make the

ukrainian air force more effective. nbc news talked to a former state department official who pointed out the planes that would be coming from poland are decades old, saying, quote, we would just be putting ukrainians up in 30- to 40-year-old fighter jets that are basically flying coffins. so there's one argument against that. there are other ways to help the ukrainians, willie. >> yeah, including zelenskyy still calling for that no-fly zone. we had senator bob menendez, chair of foreign relations, on our show saying he's not ready to take that step because of the implications for nato and the united states. in person ukraine, residents now are watching the destruction of eastern cities in their country and beginning to take matters into their own hands, bracing for bat where will they live and trying to prevent the russian soldiers from destroying their homes. lester holt is in the west of ukraine with more. >> reporter: they are preparing

to defend their country one block at a time. this barricaded checkpoint being erected in a la vooef suburb not by soldiers or police but by civilian residents. >> we join to help our city. we don't want russian troops to come here. we need to defend our families, our womens, children. we are not here mill ta republican strategists. we are civilians doing everything how we can. >> reporter: he and his neighbors are stacking sand begs, cement walls and steel barriers as part of layered defenses to guard against vladimir putin's army protect not just their homes but homeland too. do you think it's the duty of every ukrainian to fight or to support the war? >> of course. >> reporter: checkpoints like this are being built with great

urgency because there is full expectation the war will eventually come to this part of ukraine. the question is how soon. those molotov cocktails, improvised bombs we saw citizens making at the start of the war now close at hand. nobody knows what battle on these streets would really look like or what might precede it. are you worried about russian saboteurs and spies? >> yes, of course. >> reporter: as we shoot, we're startled by the sudden sound of an attack jet e, a ukrainian plane racing from the camera's view. ukraine's air force still in the fight and so are the ukrainian people. does this send a message to the russians about the willingness of people here to fight and defend their homes? >> for russians, i can tell just one. >> reporter: his answer, in russian, a profane rallying cry among defiant ukrainians, telling mr. putin what he can do. >> lester holt, "nbc nightly

news," reporting from the ground in ukraine. mika, it is extraordinary to watch day in, day out, average ukrainians, civilians standing up and fighting for their country and fighting for their lives. >> it really is. and while the answers are few right now as to where this goes next and how it comes to a close, there is so much suffering and so many people want to help. the best organizations at this point are the polish red cross, polish humanitarian assistance, and amare care. the number one need is medical supplies. gene robinson, before we close today, final thoughts from you. >> i guess i'm wondering how far the united states and the west and any toe will go in what ben rhodes called this gray area. >> right. >> between, you know, noninvolvement and actual war with russia. will we do more in the cyber realm, for example. >> right. >> and i'm also wondering where

is russia's exit from this. >> mm-hmm. >> because we're past the point where logically russia should find some graceful way out or some exit ramp. however, how rational is vladimir putin right now? and on that question, the fate of the lives of so many ukrainians, it is a tragedy, and it's all in putin's hands. all in his hands. >> one man. willie, we just got a report released just moments ago about inflation. >> yeah. up to 7.9% just crossing the wire. 7.9% over the past year. that is the largest spike in 40 years. the data from the labor department does not include oil and gas spikes that have followed the invasion.

since then the national average for a gallon of gas has gone up 62 cents. yesterday i filled up my car, a jeep, $118. this is something americans are grappling with. that does it for us this morning. we continue our coverage as chris jansing picks up the coverage. good morning. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is thursday, march 10th. this morning, ukraine and the rest of the world reeling from a new level of atrocity. the russian bombing of a maternity hospital in mariupol that buried children, doctors, and pregnant women in piles of rubble. at least three people, including a child, were killed in that attack. it alds new urgency to the latest appeal from ukrainian president zelenskyy for the west to protect his country with a no-fly zone. >> don't wait me asking you several times, a million times, close the sky. no. you have