and it turns out he couldn't. and through his own actions he has driven ukraine further and further to the west. >> former ambassador to ukraine marie yovanovitch, her new book is called lessons from the edge is out next week. thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this thursday night, the rachel maddow show starts with ali velshi, good evening ali. >> chris, that was a remarkably poignant point, that comes up, and maria yovanovitch's book. the idea that volodymyr zelenskyy was an untested creature, and now, is a global hero. chris, thank you, we will talk to again tomorrow night. thank you at-home for joining us this hour. i am outside of a train station in hungary tonight. as you can see, trains coming, and going, and this is where ukrainian refugees have been lining up, to board the trains to budapest, for any other destination on the departure. incidentally, this train is headed towards ukraine. there are some people who are heading back, and i will explain to you why that is happening, a little later in

the show. most people, the overwhelming majority of them, and here to get as far away from the war that displace them. it's three in the morning here. 24 hours per day. fair warning that you can hear from last night, you may hear some background noise, or announcement over the loudspeaker, over the course of the hour tonight. it is in odessa in ukraine, and they are called the potemkin stairs. there is a grand entrance for the center of the city, and the top of the stairs is a monument. a statue of the duke, the founder of the city. it is the first monument, ever built in odessa. ukraine's third largest city. it has been there since the 1800s. here is what it looks like today. ukrainian soldiers have buried the entire thing in sandbags. with just the duke's head, and outstretched arm, poking out of the top. it is an attempt to protect this historic statue from

russian forces, which are advancing on the city. now, look, this is a mainly symbolic gesture, trying to shield the heart of their city. sandbags are, clearly, no match for bombs. but, it is an emotional gesture, nonetheless, as ukraine's major cities continue to brace for impact. it is the days that stalled and days, and it is despite the setbacks, and they make the moderate operational inventions in kyiv in the last 24 hours. they estimate that russia will fully encircle ukraine's capital, and what would be the next week or two. so, for now, it is suburbs all around kyiv, continuing to get hit the hardest. this is the roman if ski bridge, in the city of irpin today. it is a suburb west of kyiv. more than 1000 people, and at least 100 children, were evacuated from under a bridge, after it was bombed out, in an attempt to slow russia's advance into the city.

police help them cross the rubble, and get into a series of bosses to try to get to the safety, and to see what they are traversing is plywood. that is the top of the irpin river. they were elderly women, men, and the wheelchairs. the ukrainian soldier, and they rushed passport of the evacuation site. it is all across the country, to make this arduous journey in the bitter cold. the coat on their backs, and can carry decide their own children. almost everyone is arriving with children. it is in the region near the capital. parents carrying children on their soldiers. they're pulling along and soldiers, with their wagons. there was constant russian shelling for days now. they see richard engel filing this roll report, from irpin today, and from the front lines are blurry at best. >> here we go.

we are now locked and loaded up. all of the soldiers. the russians control part of this district. the ukrainians control other parts. the front line isn't straight. there are pockets. there are many abandoned cars here in irpin. people who just left them behind us they escape the area, and the soldiers have just been going through, looking for cars with keys and them, and gas. now, we have transport. the streets here are completely empty. the biggest risk is that you will turn a corner, and they were in the sea, and they were driving. working cautiously, with our

eyes open. >> this is the center of irpin. very few people around. although, a few have stayed, for now. >> you think you will leave some? >> soon. >> soon? >> the lack of people here, creating opportunities for looters. the volunteers catch a few suspected looters, who had alcohol in their backpacks. the local mayor, not having any of it. russia, continuing to insist it is targeting civilians, and not bombing civilian areas, but just on the outskirts of kyiv, you can see, entire areas have been wiped out, and more strikes are happening right now. >> now, in the city of chernihiv, is saying that the city is fully encircle by russian troops. russian shelling, destroying

the pipes. so, the entire city without heat, or cooking gas. some neighborhoods, with no clean water. the mayor says there is-limited room to bury the dead, so they are putting five coffins in every grave. for the thousands of people who remain alive in the city, the mayor says, they have no place to live. the city of marion poll, continuing to get slammed, the day after the russia announced a direct strike, in the concerning hospital. it's three people that were killed, in that attack, and at least 17 more were injured. it was a heavy support in the civilian that will evacuate mariupol today. it is this affecting report, an outside kyiv tonight. it is dealing with scores of injured civilians. >> there were stuffed into car boots, and on the back seats, they are taking some terrible hits, trying to stop the russian troops, entering the ukrainian capital. laying out and already blood

soaked structures. the soldiers have just been shelled on the front line, creeping ever closer to kyiv. it is the nearest hospital, and now entirely turned over to dealing with the war wounded. these aren't army medics, near the town's doctors, and nurses, who two weeks ago, we're dealing with births, and bone breaks. now, they are plunged into a new world, and spinning the lives of civilians, torn apart by bombs, and bullets. >> it's world war iii? >> it's world war iii. and it won't just stop here. it will move towards them. help us, with it's going here. >> they're shell-shocked, and shaking. so long, peace talks have gone nowhere. hospitals are protected, on the

international law. no one here trust that to be observed. yet, there is astonishing visitors, and perhaps realizing, they have no option. >> it is not difficult for us to fight, he tells us. we are defending our land, and will continue to protect it. then, he delivers a rousing call. not just for our fellow ukrainian men and women, but also the rest of the world. everyone has to stand together, he says. >> glory to ukraine, our army will win. >> glory to ukraine, something i hear from so many of the refugees, who i meet, even here in hungary. for now, with the russians inching closer, kyiv, and its surrounding suburbs, remaining under ukrainian control. it is not to read the entire country, however. the city of harrison, the first of all, since the start of the russian invasion. kherson has been under russian control for two weeks now.

nbc's matt bradley, with a report from there tonight. what it looks like in the parts of ukraine that have transition from being under attack, to being under occupation. >> kirsten ukraine, offering the first glimpses of russia's occupation. after two weeks, kherson is the first, and only major city, to fall to russian forces. last week, its residents were proudly protesting against russian troops. but, that is all changed. >> not only do they blockade us from food, and medicine, and basic necessities, but also, they are prepared to imprison those who disagree, and those who protest. >> and going to the ukrainian military, there is one that local residents else, is the appearance of russia's national guard. this paramilitary force, created in 2016, answering directly to president putin. they are mostly deployed in russia as riot police.

now, they are in kherson. suppressing dissent, the same way they do when russia. in this video of a protest, russia's version of a police riot. looking around for social media, they're looking for their apartments, merrick of the kherson said. they're even looking for the people who were fighting against russians in 2014. the city is strangled. the mayor says they have about a week of food left. >> peace talks between russia, and ukraine, broke down, without any promises of peace fire, or protected evacuation corridors with civilians. they were in every sense, a failure. they lasted 90 minutes. today was day 15. with no diplomatic events. what will day 16 bring? joining us live from lviv, nbc news, cal perry. cal, what are you telling us about the breakdown in peace talks today? >> hearing from the ukrainian foreign minister, and the post press conference, it is lavrov,

the foreign minister of russia, even having the power to negotiate. he said he wasn't even authorized to discuss anything in particular. so, virtually, was a waste of time. one thing that did happen as the director general of the iaea there, unusual for the director of the iaea to shop at peace talks, but he did so, out of concern for what's happening at chernobyl. we understand, for the russian ministry of defense, to open a corridor to allow ukrainian engineers getting to chernobyl, to restore power to the site, while the iaea says there's no danger right now, they are worried in the future. let's touch briefly on the city of kharkiv, because we are seeing there, what we saw play out in marion poll. a bbc news crew, getting to the center of the city today, so, we have a video where we're seeing not only russian soldiers laying in the streets dead, but also, a number of civilians. that city, now under bombardment, no power, no heat, and it's a humanitarian catastrophe. both the red cross, and doctors without borders, and they are unable to get to mostly any of

these cities, and their conditions are deteriorating. >> cal, thank you for your coverage, thank you to you and your team, please stay safe or you are. cal perry, live, in lviv, tonight. since the start of the invasion, the ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, has literally begged the united states, and nato, to enforce a no fly zone over his country. more recently, and come out to supply his country with fighter jets. so far, those requests have been denied. this week, they sent two patriot surface to air missile batteries. not to, ukraine poland, to protect nato's eastern flank. those are weapons that the ukrainian president would, desperately, love to see inside of his own country. instead, for now, the u.s. and western allies, sending ukraine thousands of anti-tank javelins, and both of which are used to tremendous effect. by ukrainian soldiers, who are on the frontlines.

but, as russia ramps up its attacks on civilian targets, like hospitals, as we showed you, in schools, pressure is growing on the united states to close the gap between what ukraine wants, and the military hardware that nato allies are willing to provide. joining us now, live, from ukraine, is andre. he is the former ukrainian minister of defense. he is the cofounder, and chairman, of the security think tank, center for defense strategies. thank you for being with us. you and i talked earlier to this weekend, we first got news that this polish exchange of airplanes would not happen. i want you to help me understand. it has been years since ukraine wanted more lethal weaponry from the west. it has not been forthcoming until recently. so, let's happened to the skies over ukraine. they do have the air force, and are there fights going on to ukrainian air force pilots, and

russian air force pilots? >> yes, of course. there has been some fights were there were quite successful for ukraine. ukraine has tens of thousands of aircrafts downed, including transport outs, and also fighter jets, and helicopters, and so on. overall capability, air defense capability, if ukrainian forces. not enough to counter all attacks across the country. so, it does need an enhancement. that is what our president is talking about, over and over again. so far, it is not a success. they do want to see it as soon as possible. >> the u.s. defense department said two things. two deals with poland, and to move their jets into germany, and they are not tenable. but, they also said that it won't, fundamentally, affect the outcome. they see the skies above clear, to not bombed cities, to let people evacuate, or to even

give ukrainian forces a fighting chance against the russians. what is terrible in your opinion? what can happen that can bolster ukrainian forces? >> tenable is a combination of complaints, and the anti aircraft systems. so, we've been talking about all of this for a while though. right now, there is issues who the ukrainian armed forces and ukrainian defense ministry, and in the u.s., of course. so, there has been a number of options, a multiple combinations of equipment, which could be installed with transferred, and at least partially. these talks are going on for a while, and they are not coming up with the constructive solutions. so, the main thing that we, need right now, is to save time, and to finally make a decision. there has been discussions, over and over, with specialists for days now, and before that. so, i'm just calling for a

quicker solution than what we see right now. >> the ukrainian forces are well trained. they have fighter pilots obviously. they receive these javelins, in the stinger missiles, and they have some training and being able to use it. there was a request for patriot missiles. the ukrainian army, substantially, smaller than the russian army, it has got less material, it has less equipment. if you get the stuff that you need, do you have the people to operate that stuff to effect against the russian forces? to ef>> we do have people, yesd also being smaller doesn't mean that you are using. we need to be more efficient and more motivated and we need to know the area better, and so. on as we have shown in the case of the land forces, we can be more efficient than russians, and we can actually win. so far, russians are not reaching their strategic objectives, and operational objectives and ukraine. so it's not a question of us not being able to defend

ourselves, we just need equipment. and that's been said over and over again already. >> let's talk about what this defense looks like at this point. we do know, and we're gonna talk about about it later in the show, their controls on russia on what kind of information is coming out. russians will tell you they have lost far less in terms of i munitions and jets, and soldiers. but the bottom line is, there are people in russia who are saying, what is this war for? why are we doing this? why are we suffering economically? why are we suffering minute terribly? how long do you think ukraine can hold out while the turn tie against vladimir putin if that tie turns? >> we can hold for a while because we have people who are absolutely determined. as you can see. for success and winning. this whole campaign has no sense whatsoever -- the only reason why it's

because putin wants to turn ukraine into a subject to sit pate, or some colony, or whatever. and people in ukraine, absolutely all of them, are against that. we want to be an independent country. we want to be a european democracy. and all of the people are absolutely motivated to fight. so the west has been with us for all this time and currently, this delay with a solution, indeed, it's frustrating. as you can see, we are losing people, including civilians on a daily basis. but we are absolutely motivated to fight, there is no doubt about that whatsoever. >> thank you for joining me, he is a former ukrainian minister of defense. much more to get to tonight, i will be speaking to some of the people i met here on the ukrainian border with hungary, where some of the millions have fled ukraine. but coming up next, i'm gonna lead to a leading russian opposition figure, but he

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published a massive piece of reporting today based on interviews with 17 biden administration officials, diplomats, policy makers, and experts. those 17 different biden administration officials say the administration sees, quote, no clear and to the military phase, and quote, of russia's invasion of ukraine. the new challenge of the biden administration, and their eyes, is to try to control the uncontrollable. russian president vladimir putin and his and game. putin is one -- the one person in the world with the unilateral ability to end this war. and since he does not appear willing to negotiate seriously at this stage, the question becomes,, can anyone in russia

make him? at least, roughly 14,000 anti-war protesters have already been arrested in russia, and almost all of russia's independent media and social media has either been shuttered or muzzled. unable to report the reality of what is happening in ukraine, unable to even refer to it as a war. any truthful information that gets through is quickly spun by russian controlled state media. take for instance this photo. two ex ago today, on the first day of the russian invasion, russian forces fired on a high rise apartment building in the suburbs of kharkiv. this woman who is 53 years old and a teacher was injured when a fallen short of america sliced her face. images of her quickly made it to the front pages across western media, but in russian media they called the image of fake saying the woman was a crisis actor, and that, quote

the blood turned out to be either makeup or ordinary grape or pomegranate juice. that is quite some journalism here, it's either makeup or pomegranate juice. they claimed she was actually ukrainian special forces operative. faking everything to make russia look bad. just yesterday, a russian air travel hit a maternity hospital in mariupol killing two adults and one child and wounding 17 others. but in the russian press, the story is either that the hospital was empty, or more nefariously, that ukrainian military did at themselves, firing artillery strikes on their own civilian infrastructure. now, with state media lying this aggressively and all alternative sources shut down, how can the russian people be expected to oppose what putin is doing, let alone voice that opposition? well, russian opposition leader karma thinks this question is

key. he has been a new effective force in resisting russia over the years that the kremlin poisoned him not once, but twice to try to get rid of him. this was his advice in the washington post this week, quote, as the world's democracies rightly prioritize helping ukraine withstand putin's aggression, they should not overlook the other important task, helping russian citizens gain access to objective information about the war and the putin regime in general. democratic nations must step up efforts to provide news coverage for russian citizens in the russian language. western leaders are learning the hard way that the instability, repression and conflict putin is causing will resolve only when he is out of power. only russians can and should achieve this. the least the world's democracies can do is help them get access to the truth. and quote. joining us now is the russian

opposition politician blood americore mostly, he is in washington this week for meeting -- a trip that took him today so complex because of the closed airspace on the journey to dc from moscow. mr. caramel set, thank you so much for being with us tonight. you just left moscow -- >> thank you for having me. >> we understand that russian state media is spinning this war, help us understand vladimir as you often do. how effective that spin is? what percentage of the russian population buys into what the putin government to saying, especially since they are seeing inflation, high interest rates and all sorts of other effects to their daily lives? >> you just mentioned the word war, just for doing that, you could get up to 15 years in prison and russia that was a law passed last week, it's criminal to be opposite to this war but also mentioning that there is a war. it's a totally orwellian

reality that we are living with -- in russia. george orwell's 1984 really did come to life under vladimir putin's regime. one piece, -- a famous line from orwell's novel. it's astonishing and it makes me proud that there are thousands of people across russia, as you've just shown to your viewers a few moments ago, who have been protesting, they've been all over the streets all over the country. in cities and towns across russia. saying, this is not our role. these war crimes, these crimes against humanity that the putin regime is unleashing on the nation of ukraine, in the heart of europe for the past two weeks, those crimes are not being done and committed by the people of russia. everybody is rightly focusing on the war of aggression, the actual war that vladimir putin has been leading against ukraine. but there is another war that

the kremlin regime has conducted very swiftly and very successfully, and that has been the war of what remained of independent media in russia, what made the russian civil society. literally every single major independent source in russia has been shut down and past few weeks. an echo of moscow radio station that has been synonymous with quality independent journalism in russia has been shut down. we have dozens of people who have been indicted under this new clause, this new so-called defense of speaking out against the war. this includes today, for example, a russian orthodox priest in the region of costa is being charged and find for speaking out against killings, against the war in his sermon in church. now that is outlawed in vladimir putin's russia. so the astonishing a mind-boggling fact, however incredulous it sounds, is that most people in russia today do not even know that there is a

war that vladimir putin's regime is conducting against ukraine. if you watch russian state television, you live in this imagined reality where it is the west and the ukrainian government that are to blame for the conflict. and what putin's forces are doing is conducting a so-called targeted special operations that doesn't affect civilians. i think people have been watching your channel and other world media have seen the or her affix images coming out of ukraine, they can be the judges of that for themselves. >> and given the threat to opposition leaders like yourself, to journalists, to protesters, it's remarkable. something you told me years ago that always sticks with me, don't talk about russians, talk about the russian administration, the russian government the putin regime because russians are not onside with this thing but you advocate something interesting. you advocate for western countries democratic nations to produce more russian language journalism that shows what's

actually happening in ukraine, to burst the russian state media's fake news bubble. but how does that actually happen? how do western outlets actually get that kind of reporting to the russian people now that the russian government has blocked out or shut out all the proposing press? >> look, if this was done in the soviet times, when those western radio broadcasters, would be bc russian service, and saw one, lead the radio single through the iron curtain, to reach millions of listeners, and side of the soviet union. soviet listeners, and western analysts alike, emphasizing just how important is the truth, and the voice of objective information is. we are delegitimizing the totalitarian regime, in the eyes of some people. there is 80% of the collapse of the communist system, at the end of the cold war. so, i think right now, better late than never, as they say. hopefully, it is clear, to the

free world, to western democracy, that the only way to resolve the situation that has been led to us, is a major land war in europe, is to make sure that vladimir putin is not in power. for years, the russian opposition has been warning western democracies just wear this appeasement of putin would lead. so, for all of those years, unfortunately, western countries looked away. western financial systems, western banks, continue to, essentially, unable, and bankroll, the kleptocracy. this is where it red led. i wish we had been wrong on this. it should be clear to the civilized world, that the situation to this is a major change in russia. needless to say, political change in russia, can and, should only be accommodation by russian citizens. no re-advocates, or regime change from outside, or any other nonsense of the kremlin propaganda would have you believe. but, i do think it is important,

the free world helps the russian people to get access to the truth about the horrific times with the putin regime, is committing, supposedly, two others. it is important that the putin kleptocracy, and the putin oligarch e is, finally, and fully, cut out from the global financial system. there is more that needs to be done. there is also to send a clear message, the western world, and the united states in particular, sees let him or putin exactly for who he is. it was another democratically elected leader, and it led to an illegitimate usurper. there is an important congressional initiative, here in the united states, called the house resolution 806, and it was on the bipartisan level a, few weeks ago. it is official day recognize in, and letter putin regime, by the united states, in the same way the maduro regime in venezuela. it was also looking with others that cannot recognize. i hope they see they initiative,

and it is with vladimir putin is conducting war crimes, and crimes against humanity in the heart of europe. >> volodymyr, thanks as always for your time, and your analysis, and for your hard work. russian opposition figure vladimir, it is just passed 3:30 am, here, in hungary, on the ukrainian border. coming up next, i will go inside the train station, where i have been reporting, so you can see a better look at how the millions of ukrainian refugees are managing. managing. . at liberty butchemel... cut. liberty mu... line? cut. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. cut. liberty m... am i allowed to riff? what if i come out of the water? liberty biberty... cut. we'll dub it. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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at 405. the strain is going to leave for budapest. this is hungary, just across the border from ukraine. thousands of people, fleeing for their lives. right now, i am outside of the train station, at the temporary resting space, for those refugees, and they're going to embark on. just before the last train left for budapest, they're going to get a look at what they were. >> who is hungary, and was across the border, across the river from chuck, let me show you how this goes. it was the train, and it is leaving here, from budapest. that is where they had points

beyond that. people stay, here in this train station, until the train comes. it is warm, and there is a mother child room. as you know, half of the refugees coming out of ukraine are children. they are all over the place. kids everywhere. children. there is a nursery for them, it is being out here, and in the middle of the train station. they are here, waiting for the trains to come, and great over there. that is the train where they take it back to budapest. and to budapest. there is another situation going on right here, and that is the parents who are taking to this point. it is leaving there and hungary, it is with the families, and the other european city, and somewhere else, but parents who are going back into ukraine. as they get off at a border

crossing, it is not far from here, and wait for several hours that will bring them across the border. now, you can see, as a train is pulled in, people are very anxious to get on the train. it isn't even ready for boarding, and it's about 18 degrees outside right now. you can see, people are just very, very ready, to go to their next destination, to get a little bit of food, to get a little bit of warmth, and to get some shelter, and begin the rest of their lives. that is the situation here at the train station, over the border, from ukraine. >> more than 2.3 million people, who have been forced to flee ukraine. it is 214,000 ukrainians, around ten to 12%, on a daily basis, coming here, to hungary, either for safety, or onward travel. hungary, along with the rest of the eu, is welcoming the refugees. they are allowing ukrainian

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move your student loan debt to sofi—you could save with low rates and no fees. go to sofi.com to view your rate today. ♪ ♪ >> it is bitterly cold here in zahau, hungary. for the new lead to hundred thousand refugees, some of whom are waiting at this train station, the real feel is a ten degrees fahrenheit. i spoke to a woman, marta, she was escorted this far by her mother who will be heading back into ukraine while she travels onward. listen to our conversation. >> and tell me about your journey here. >> now i am going to budapest, but i don't want to leave my

country, my home. but my friends decided to take us to spain after we woke up at 6 am from explosion of our airports in my city. and after sirens sounding in my city. it was terrible. >> the sirens, to say that there were bombs and attacks. >> yes. >> did you hear them? >> yes. the second day of the war. in my city, especially by our airport near my house. >> how did you get out? how did you leave from your home? >> my parents, my parents said to me, you must leave and we

go. >> who have you traveled with? >> i traveled with my mother but -- but she can't stay with us in spain because she must continue her job in kyiv and look after for her parents and ukraine, and we will stay in spain with my sister-in-law and family friends. >> so your mother is going to go back now. >> yes, because she has parents and ukraine and her -- my father stay in ukraine. >> does that scare you? >> yes. very. it's very sad because i am really scared and worried about my parents, about my country, and i can't understand why i must leave my home and my country. >> tell me about your father, he stayed behind? >> my father, yes, stayed in ukraine, and then we --

because i love him so much and it's sad. i don't understand why i must leave my country, my home. it's terrible. >> i'm so sorry that you have to leave. thank you for talking to us. i appreciated, and i hope your journey is safe, and i hope you get to go home. >> i will be back in ukraine and we will liberate our country. and i hope as soon as i can i will be back in ukraine, yeah. >> you will be back. >> you're welcome. >> after i finished recording she said to me, how does this happen in 2022? and then she said to me, humanity is in crisis. stories like marches, a fear and transition, and hope are everywhere in this transition.

coming up next, we will talk to a journalist who herself left ukraine because of russia's invasion, and who's currently on the polish border and has been spending her days there documenting the lives of other ukrainians that immigrants. young and old. who until now have called ukraine home. their stories are next. stories are next hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ age is just a number. and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health. versus 16 grams in ensure high protein. boost® high protein also has key nutrients for immune support. boost® high protein.

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world has turned to journalists who live in ukraine to get a

firsthand perspective of what is happening. one of these journalists is named adam can't. at liam kent was among the many people in ukraine forced to flee the country for the refugee camps in neighboring poland. since arriving in poland, william can't and her reporting partner, roman isabella, have been documenting the experiences of ukrainian refugees for a video project called diaries an exile. their works put a human face on the victims of this war capturing not just their trials and hardship, but also moments of laughter and levity experience by real people keeping hope alive every day. >> how did you get here? >> it's mine. i used to bring this camera everywhere. >> how do you travel with this piano? >> it's a home.

>> joining us now is eileen can't, ukraine-based journalist and producer of diaries in exile. thank you for being with us. you are seeing things, i'm trying to capture you are doing

it much better than i am, but you are capturing the humanity of these refugees. you are taking them away from being and obstruction, because when people hear 1 million and a half veggies, or 2 million refugees, it's hard to understand that each one of these are individual lives lived. >> yes, thank you. that's exactly what we are trying to do with the series. >> i want to ask you about some of the lighter moments. there aren't light moments in refugee sites. but one of the things we did, it was an interview with a 17-year-old boy from odessa, and your reaction. i just want to play that for our audience. >> i'm at the translation so

i'm getting cuts and announcements like you can hear now about the next train coming. but you got an announcement of who lost their babushka. there is some strength in the human spirit in which people laugh, they tell jokes, they are trying to grab some little piece of life to continue on, even in this horrible situation. >> 100%, while roman a and i are running around trying to capture these human moments we find pain that we share alongside with these people and we find humor. this is also how this was being perceived. my friends and i are reading the news constantly but we're also sending memes to each other, it's a very ukrainian way of coping and living through the process. >> every last person i talked

to ends when they talk to me in an interview with the expression, glory to ukraine. they all talk about the fact that they are going home, not that they hope they're going home. what is it about the ukrainian spirit that is allowing the people to stay back and bite and everybody who leaves to say, we are going back? >> i think that's just too ukrainians are at their core. the rest of the world is really meeting the people for the first time, for many. and that is one of the regular themes, i would say from all the people we have spoken to. they have indeed said that they are planning on returning home. when asking what's next, it's a very scary question. many people are lost, they don't know what is going to happen next. but the one thing they have in mind is going back and rebuilding their country on their own. and that really tells their spirits and the belief that the people have in themselves and their country, and as why people have been lost hope.

>> tell me what you want off western audiences to understand. it becomes very hard when we report, as i said, on these mass numbers and these people who are going out. when you want people to understand about ukrainians for the work that you are doing? >> i want people to understand that ukrainians are just like anybody else, but they are their own very unique individual people. they are different from russians, even though they are russians speaking ukrainians, they are different from the people in the countries that the border, which are eu countries, and they are trying to progress towards the society. so it's a constantly changing culture, to constantly changing country, and they are being attacked for their beliefs of freedom and democracy. so that is really who they are as people i would say. that's why you see how they are reacting now