getting out. plus, scrambling for reinforcements as the russian military struggles. vladimir putin this morning approved the use of up to 16,000 foreign fighters from the middle east. and the u.s. continues to sound the alarm, warning that russia may be gearing up to use biological and chemical weapons. we'll hear from the cia director. also, vice president kamala harris on the move this morning. this video coming in from warsaw as she met with troops from the u.s. and poland. her next stop is romania. all of this as the war in ukraine enters day 16. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, march 11th. we'll dive right in. russia is stepping up its offensive across ukraine this morning, launching fresh airstrikes and hitting new targets away from the main offensive. three russian strikes hit the

central city of niepr,o killing one person. airstrikes also hit two locations in western ukraine, temporarily shutting down two boiler houses. local officials say one person was killed in those attacks. again, moving west. this as u.s. officials are warning that russian troops are now just ten miles from the center city of the capital, kyiv. new satellite images yesterday released that show massive military convoy which was stalled outside the city has now dispersed and fanned out into towns and forests near the city. willie. >> meanwhile, russian forces continue their siege of the port city of mariupol amid growing concerns the humanitarian crisis there is getting worse by the hour. yesterday marked the eighth consecutive day of relentless

attacks in the city as trapped civilians struggle now to find food and water. here is how one resident described the dire situation. we've put the translation up on the screen. take a look. president zelenskyy says the russians have a, quote, clear order to hole mariupol hostage, to constantly bomb and shell it. russian shelling hindered another attempt to evacuate civilians from the city. more than 1,300 have died in mariupol in the ten-day siege. joe, we were talking quite a bit yesterday on the attack on the maternity and children's hospital. the russian government continues to push out lies, saying it was a provocation from ukraine and

not somehow an attack on a children's hospital. >> well, liars are going to lie. it is what they've done. it is what they did in chechnya, in syria and aleppo, it is what they're doing now in ukraine. let's bring in president of the council on foreign relations, richard haass, and former u.s. ambassador to russia, now the director for the institute of international studies at stanford and nbc news international affairs analyst, michael mcfaul. mr. ambassador, yesterday you spoke with president zelenskyy. what can you tell us? >> well, first of all, i didn't call him. i was calling one of my colleagues, a former stanford fellow at my -- at the institute that i run. i talk to him pretty much every day. he works for zelenskyy. when i hit the skype button it was zelenskyy instead of my friend, sergei. we talked a lot about mariupol, which you just showed, a city under siege. by the way, a giant minority, 30% -- i don't know what it is today, of course, but over 30%

of that city is russian. the woman you just interviewed, she was not speaking ukraine. she was speaking russian. i think it is important for people to understand. putin is killing innocent russians in mariupol today, and the president's message to me was help us stop this killing. you know, help us with the weapons we need to fight airplanes but also to fight long-range artillery, and that's what is being used in mariupol today. his plea was you have done a lot, you and the west, we appreciate what you have done, and now you have to do more. >> well, you know, mr. ambassador, we don't hear that "you have done a lot" so much as we hear him complaining about what the west is not doing. just some perspective here, the congress just passed a $14 billion plus bill. the flow -- david ignatius was talking about the extraordinary amount of arms that are flowing from poland into ukraine, the

extraordinary amount of arms that are landing on massive u.s. transport planes every day in poland. you look at images of ukraine fighters walking through woods. every one of them have anti-tank missiles on their shoulders. again, i don't expect thanks, but, again, we seem to have boiled this entire argument down to a no-fly zone, which we cannot do, or 29 old migs from poland. please put this in perspective for us. what do you think we should do? >> well, i personally agree with what you just said, joe. i actually think when the history is written the amount of military assistance that has come from nato countries, and the united states first and foremost, and the comprehensive sanctions we have put in place that has completely shocked the russian economy and russians

from billionaires to professors like me has been extraordinary. i would add to that the number of nato forces that have been moved to the front line states, which i think is prudent. by the way, i think we should talk about this a little bit more. the notion that putin after going in and fighting the ukrainian forces and having such trouble there right now, that he would go on a suicide mission and attack a nato country in addition to that, when we have orders of magnitude, more fire power, more manpower and sophisticated weapons compared to the ukrainians seems to me to be utterly absurd. there seems to be too much loose talk about first ukraine and next poland, i think that's preposterous. if you are zelenskyy, and i heard in his voice, yeah, that's great, but we are still dying here. we are still losing this war. our people are still dying. therefore, i think in terms of -- one of the mistakes, by the way, we made, joe, and maybe

i am at fault on this. i want to own this. we spent a little too much time talking about the details of those mig 29s. and i think in some ways that got us in trouble. instead, we should just quietly send the weapons he needs to help defend the air -- >> exactly. >> -- and defend against artillery. >> exactly. i am so maddened by people who make public pronouncements, richard haass, of what we're going to be sending in. keep your mouth shut. it is the last thing we need to do. we have senators running around capitol hill talking about regime change, where you are putting us into a -- an all-or-nothing nuclear war or defeat situation if that thought sinks in to putin's mind. we have people running around saying, look at what we're going to ship into ukraine. a lot more people need to keep their mouths shut.

i do though, richard, i do understand and it is something that i was warning about a week ago before we signed off last friday. i said, i know you're going to see a lot of horrifying images on your air over the next week. we need to keep our heads about us and not trigger world war iii. peggy noonan's writing about that in the "wall street journal" this weekend. but let's step back for one second, richard, and talk about the massive number of weapons that are going in there, the most impressive coalition that's been put together since bush 41. and one final thing, as we bring up bush 41 and what he did in the first gulf war, remember, there were people screaming from the cheap seats then as well that george h.w. bush should take the tanks into baghdad. he showed restraint and he

caught hell for a decade until his son tried to do the same thing. i know we have got twitter. i know we have 24/7 cable news, but talk about how sometimes restraint is the better part of valor. >> restraint is. i was one of the people that was screaming because i was the middle east advisor at the white house for 41. look, there are times the united states has not exercised restraint. we have made massive mistakes. you talk about the 2003 iraq war. think about korea in 1950. we went in, we acted with restraint. we liberated south korea, which had been taken by north korea, but then we dropped our discipline and restraint and truman green lighted general mcarthur to go all the way up to the yalu river, hundreds of thousands of chinese troops joined the war. tens of thousands of american soldiers died, and after several years of fighting korea was still divided at the 38th parallel.

it was a massive absence of discipline and restraint. unfortunately, there's all too many other examples where we have gotten ambitious. look, joe, we need to take a step back and understand in some ways this war now has entered a different phase. the first phase was all putin's, his war of choice. he thought it was going to be decisive. it didn't work out that way. then a lot of us thought that the united states could, you know, somehow do things that would be decisive, whether it was a no-fly zone, whether it was this or that weapons deliver, that somehow maybe putin would be overthrown quickly or there would, you know, be peace talks. that's not happening either. i think what we're basically seeing is this is now settling into the long haul, that putin is essentially massing sources, potentially escalating into chemicals or cyber. nothing in the country is safe. he wants to depop late urban areas. what we need is a policy, not a decisive event, not to think

that mig 29s or no-fly zones are somehow going to deliver this, bring us success, but we need a strategy for the long haul on the ground for ukraine which is the arming, which is humanitarian help, and obviously to ramp up the sanctions wherever we can. again, to continue to look at diplomacy. one issue out there, and it is a long shot, is whether in any way we can shoe horn china away from russia because right now xi jinping might be the one guy that can persuade vladimir putin to reconsider what he is doing. >> guys, stay with us. we want to go to the ground in kyiv. nbc chief foreign correspondent richard engel is there. we have heard about slow but steady progress of russian forces toward the capital city, where you are standing right now. what does it look like today? what are you seeing? >> reporter: there's a growing concern that russian forces, which had been largely stalled until now, are starting to make advances towards kyiv. they've moved ahead several miles in the last 24 hours, and

that long convoy, the 40-mile convoy according to new satellite images is no longer just stuck by the side of the road. it is being -- it is broken up, it is moving around, it is redeploying. this is consistent with what u.s. officials are saying that russia is now actively trying to surround kyiv, and they believe that this operation to encircle the capital could take one to two weeks with not just using troops from that convoy but bringing in troops from other areas. the siege in mariupol continues. the red cross is worried that -- or is sounding the alarm that vital medicines are not just in short supply but have run out completely and that people are starting to fight over food. so a very dire situation in the city for -- that had about 400,000 people and as you were just talking about it is hard to

know how many people are still there right now. there are about a dozen humanitarian corridors that are opening and closing in this country. sometimes they're flowing, sometimes they're blocked, but mostly they are trying to get out of cities that are currently under attack and go into other parts of ukraine that might be attacked in the future. president zelenskyy says that so far about 100,000 people have moved along the humanitarian corridors, in addition to the 2.5 million refugees who have left the country. >> richard, we have talked so much about military strategy, whether or not it would be a no-fly zone or weapons going to the country. but i know you have been on the ground talking to regular people living through a war right now and obviously scared for their lives as they've been cut off or at least pushed out of their houses and moved to other countries. what can you tell us about the feeling, the mood of the ukrainian people. we have seen public displays of patriotism that has so inspired the world, but what is it like on the ground?

>> reporter: people are still holding on. they are still united. they are still determined to resist, but as this war spreads out and russia is attacking new targets, attacking three different locations just overnight including the city of niepro which had largely been spared, it was attacked with a single apparently airstrike even though russian troops are not that close to the city. it is creating a degree of concern. i don't want to say panic, but many ukrainians are trying to reach their relatives, trying to call their extended families in places that are either surrounded or under attack. internet in many cases is cut off. so here in the capital according to the mayor, about half of the population had left and the people who are here are trying to coordinate movements of families, trying to reach out to relatives who might be in other areas that are under attack or their families are on the move

heading out of the country. >> nbc's richard engel in kyiv for us this morning. richard, thanks so much. guys. ambassador mcfaul, just wanted to get a big picture on what russia is able to do. we've been debating the issue of the migs. we have been talking about limited humanitarian no-fly zones, but also russia's surprise that they have met such a resistance. i am wondering, do we know how much of their military is engaged at this point, how much of a backup do they have? looking at the long game, how long they could go at this knowing that ukrainians will not break? >> it is a great question. just so we're clear, i do not support a no-fly zone and i want us to stop using that phrase. i want you to start using the phrase declaration of war. then you ask people, do you support a declaration of war against russia?

because if an american pilot shoots down a russian pilot has a declaration of war. i'm here in philadelphia actually. i just talked to the house democrats at their retreat and i encouraged them to use that phrase. i don't support that. everything below that i support 110%, because if they don't win we lose and us losing in ukraine has big, big implications for europe, the middle east and asia. with respect to putin, he's got most of his military left. i talked to a senior administration official yesterday. i'm learning how to use that phrase now being on the other side, an s.a.o. i used to be one. he has 95% of his army left. he has 95% of his arsenal left. they've lost a lot. he's lost way more than they thought, but they're still on the move. i think it is important to remember wars traditionally end in two ways. either one side wins or there's a stalemate. right now there's not a stalemate in ukraine. putin is still marching forward. that, i think, means we're going

to have many more tragic weeks ahead of us. >> so, richard, let's plan ahead here. >> 95%. >> we know what is going to happen. we saw it again, as i said, we have seen it in chechnya, we have seen it in syria, of course, aleppo being the most extreme example. these war crimes are going to continue. if they don't get their way, putin will use chemical weapons. at that point the western world, the rest of the world is probably going to decide that they have to get involved, they have to go in one way or the other. so why don't we just plan ahead right now? i'm curious why -- i saw this yesterday, defense one, i'm curious. instead of us just having a zero sum game where we sit on the sidelines and watch these war crimes continue, these war crimes against humanity, watch them using chemical weapons on

ukrainians and knowing that the united states or nato can't go in, why don't we take a couple of steps back, see what we did in syria, perhaps go to the united nations, go to the general assembly, have humanitarian zones, security zones that were set up in syria to stop the massive killing there, and take it to the united nations general assembly for a vote. if that vote passes, you wouldn't have vladimir putin against the united states or against nato. you would have vladimir putin having to decide whether he was going to launch missiles at the united nations and united nations peacekeepers. what do you think about that? >> that the idea of bypassing the security council, joe, makes a lot of sense because the security council obviously russia vetoes. i understand the idea of trying to have some type of humanitarian zones or operations there. there's two big issues.

one is whether you could get the votes. a lot of countries in africa, the middle east and elsewhere will be reluctant i think to take sides here. that's what we're seeing. second of all, if and when russia were to say this was unwelcome, i think a lot of countries would be, quite honestly, spooked by the idea of getting into something that would be military quite demanding. the u.n. has a tradition of peace keeping. not a lot of peace making, particularly not against a great power. so my hunch is this would be enormously difficult politically and then enormously difficult on the ground. i think it is worth exploring just to see whether -- where people stand and what there's appetite for. i will be honest. my hunch is things are going to move faster on the ground in ukraine that they probably will move in new york in the general assembly. >> you know, michael mcfaul, we have been on this show now for 15 years and we're here at the beginning of the syrian civil war, 10,000 people died.

we asked policymakers what could we do. well, it is difficult. 20,000 die, 40,000, 50,000 died. barack obama said, it is difficult, what can we do. we don't know what we can do. 75,000 die. 100,000 die. 200,000 die. 400,000 die. 500,000 people killed. finally security zones are set up there. i'm curious if we don't -- again, i have been saying like you, if you are going to declare a no-fly zone why don't you just declare war. in fact, invite world war iii. i do think we have to look at the possibility of doing what we did in syria because when those chemical weapons are going to be used i think western leaders will be put into a position where they're going to send troops in one way or the other. so is it not better for us to start planning ahead? because we know where this ends, and plan ahead and try to get u.n. action so there are

humanitarian zones? and the great thing about this, as you know better than anybody else, and forgive me for going on a little bit but you can explain this, the russians have cynically used the united nations for years. they say, oh, we want to take -- i was talking to a russian diplomat two years ago who said, we want to go through the united nations. you americans think you run the world and the whole -- the world order centers around you. well, we think it should center around the united nations. of course, because they have a veto there. so why don't we call their cynical bluff. go to the united nations. go to the general assembly and set up humanitarian zones? >> well, i'm glad you brought syria up because i worked in the obama administration during that period. i wrote a book about my time -- actually, i wrote a book about u.s./russian relations over the last 30 years. i have one chapter called "chasing the russians, failing the syrians."

i write honestly about how we were too reactive. we kept trying to do a deal with the russians instead of taking the offensive unilaterally on more creative ideas including the one you just described. so i support that. i am struck by how little the united nations has done, for instance, in the negotiations between the russians and the ukrainians. why is there not greater united nations participation in those negotiations? and if you can do the creative thing, it should be tried, i agreed with richard. i'm not optimistic, but i'm also not optimistic about the timing. i agree with you. we need to stop being so defensive, so reactive. >> exactly. >> be more offensive in terms of what we're going to do to help the ukrainians stop putin inside. no-fly zone, i think the president should be just crystal clear. we're not going to send soldiers. i disagree with those who think we can secure a humanitarian zone inside ukraine. i don't think that's feasible.

but everything else, there's lots of weapon systems, lots of weapon systems, surface-to-air missile systems, some of them post-soviet systems, by the way, that when i talked to president zelenskyy he is pretty crystal clear about what the menu is. rather than talking about it and deliberating and say, well, the pols can do it if they want, i think it is a very weak move. we are -- the nato alliance should be moving together offensively in my view, that is proactively and quietly. >> well, and one other thing is while we're on syria, you are so right. i think the frustrating thing is we are always on the defensive against putin. he is always a disrupter. we are always playing catch-up. i wish joe biden, i wish we would get the message to him. you know, donald trump retreated from syria. we had 2,500 troops there that were doing an extraordinary job protecting people. you know what? we're seeing what you are doing

in ukraine. we are seeing that the terror is still going on in syria. we understand that donald trump wanted to turn syria over to the russians for the first time since is it 73, giving them -- you said, you know, we may just have to send those 2,500, those 3,000 troops back into syria to act as peacekeepers again. i'm not saying we do it, but putting it out there and asking vladimir putin, okay, you're saying we can't cross that line. fine, i tell you one line we can cross. we can go back into syria, because unlike donald trump we don't want to cede syria to you. i mean we just need more aggressive thinking that doesn't trigger world war iii because putin, you're right, we are always on the defensive. we are always reacting to him. it is time that we leaned forward a bit. >> well, and just to reemphasize because we go from doing what we're doing now to world war iii in these conversations, right. everybody says that.

>> right. >> we don't want to do that because it is escalatory. i want to be crystal clear. i just wrote my latest column about how to avoid nuclear armageddon. of course, we are all for that. but if we can establish -- and i think we have established, by the way, according to people i have talked to in the government -- that putin was more -- that was more bark than bite, that he is not going to go on a suicide mission and launch a nuclear holocaust. then you have to say, well, what is between where we are at now and below the threshold of nuclear holocaust. it is a lot. when we say we fear escalation, i want some more fidelity to what that means because i don't think you can attack nato right now for the reasons i already described. so i just think just as a posture, even the way we talk we have to talk with more confidence about what we're doing. the world wants us to be stronger, not just the ukrainians but in the middle east, in asia. they want us to be stronger, and i think we need to understand that that has implications for

what we do in ukraine. if we lose in ukraine, that has giant implications for our strategic posture around the world, and i think rather than being cautious we need to lean into that fight and do whatever we can to not give putin the victory in ukraine. >> ambassador mcfaul, thank you so much. something that's not usually conducive to cable news to his point, slow down and lower the reactivity and really talk about all of the different options because there are many. still ahead on "morning joe," we will be joined by ukraine's ambassador to the united states, oksana markarova. plus, we will go live to poland where a number of ukrainian refugees in that country has now grown to 1.5 million. and the latest hit to the u.s. economy, inflation hits a fresh 40-year high. it is not accounting for the expected spike in oil prices.

you're watching our continuing coverage on "morning joe." we will be right back.

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♪♪ 6:30 in the morning. a live picture of the white house. this morning president biden is scheduled to speak about 10:15 eastern time about ukraine, and vice president kamala harris is traveling in romania now after a visit to poland. covering the president and vice president, we have the host of "way too early" and white house burro chief of "politico" jonathan lemire and josh lederman live for us in warsaw. josh, i will start with you. yesterday vice president kamala harris said absolutely russia is committing war crimes in ukraine and they ought to be investigated for it and reasserted that the united states would meet its article five obligation if russia

attacks a nato country. >> the vice president's goal has been to assure nato countries the u.s. will stand up for their defense and to signal continued u.s. support including for humanitarian issues here in poland, now facing a massive influx of refugees, the largest movement of displaced people in europe since world war ii. by that relatively low bar, the vice president has succeeded on this trip with flying colors. it is a mission that often falls to vice presidents. in fact, the last time that i was here in poland in warsaw was with another vice president named joe biden in 2014, the last time president putin invaded ukraine. jonathan and i were working at the associated press together at the time and biden carried out a very similar mission saying, look, the u.s. and nato will defend every inch of nato territory. harris before she left poland this morning on her way to

romania met with u.s. and polish troops including american service members from california, from puerto rico as well as from fort bragg in north carolina. she had this to say about the importance of their mission. >> we work together, we train together, we form friendships that are based on solidarity, mutual values and shared principles. all of you took an oath to protect and defend your country. you have each decided to live a life of service doing some of the most important work any individual could ever do, which is prepare to sacrifice for the sake of your nation. that is some of the most noble work any human being could do. >> reporter: and, will, you mentioned that issue over the

allegation of war crimes by russia. i got to say it has been a little difficult for the u.s. to get on the same page on this issue in the last couple of weeks. it was about a week ago that the u.s. embassy in kyiv tweeted out that russia had committed war crimes. the state department then had to walk that back. harris here in poland yesterday called for an international investigation, said the u.s. would participate in a u.n. process to document and figure out whether that had occurred but she didn't go quite as far as to say russia has committed war crimes. but then just a few hours later we heard from the u.s. ambassador to the u.n., linda thomas greenfield, who explicitly said russia has committed war crimes, that there are atrocities clearly involved, intentional attacks on civilians which would constitute war crimes. i am told the u.s. at this point has not made the formal determination, they have not dotted the is and crossed the ts with the lawyers to be able to formally make that allegation. but you can tell if you read the tea leaves here just how eager

american officials are to go ahead and call this what they believe it is, a war crime given just the level of horror and atrocity we are seeing from all of the images coming out of ukraine, willie. >> and you would expect that official announcement come to shortly here. josh lederman live from warsaw. let's turn to jonathan la middle eastern. the president is going to step to a microphone a few hours later to make an announcement about russia. what do you expect to hear from him? >> he will be announcing the latest step in the economic campaign against russia, saying the united states, the european union and the g7, which are the world's largest economies for democracies, are going to revoke most favored nation status for russia. that's according to administration officials talking to reporters this morning. what that means is that it will allow the united states and their allies and each country will handle it differently, to increase tariffs on russia, to really hurt the trade between

russia and other countries and further isolate moscow from the rest of the world economically. this comes as congress is debating to perhaps revoke what is known as permanent normalized trade with russia, which would only further step up the economic pressure, increase the costs. so as every move the white house has made on this front, they're, of course, mindful of the blow back that could come at home. we know consumer prices have risen here in the united states, inflation hitting a 40-year high and certainly oil and gas top of that list with the import ban on russian oil just announced earlier this week. but they're forging forward. they feel like this is the best way to continue to put pressure on putin and the people around putin, russian, ordinary russian citizens but also the oligarchs, those who are standing so much to lose as russia's economy continues to shrink. >> hey, jonathan, i'm curious what your thoughts are. what you're hearing, not what your thoughts are. i guess that would be less relevant to you as a reporter. i just kind of give my thoughts.

you are actually a reporter, so why don't i restate that. >> yeah, right. >> i'll get your thoughts on baseball in a second. but tell me about your reporting about the white house. what is going on inside the white house? what sort of reaction do you expect from the republicans who are holding press conferences, people like mitt romney who are saying just give them the jets already. >> we heard from mitt romney and lindsey graham on that topic yesterday saying they should send them the jets. the white house is trying to push back. they're trying to take a pause here, not in terms of efforts to ukraine, but they're assessing the situation and they don't want to go too far. this is -- what shadows over all of this is russia is still a superpower or close to it. they're certainly a nuclear power. there's a real fear of escalation, of being methodical. the u.s. feels that is the only path here because they don't want to get into some sort of shooting war. no-fly zone, that's off the table. it has never been on the table despite what some say.

they were blindsided by what poland tried to do with the jets, well-intentioned perhaps, but it is not something that the u.s. feels like they can do. the president himself according to my colleagues at "politico" weighed in to cast the final vote to say, look, we can't do this, we can't send these jets, it is simply too risky to increase the violence. they are sending weapons as they can. they've been pleased with the progress. they've been able to get some over the ground, javelins, stingers, other missile defenses like that. we heard from the vice president, a couple of patriot missile battery defenses are going to go. that's an encouraging step, but i'm told, joe, they're hearing president zelenskyy's growing frustration that they need more. the u.s. is doing what they can and trying to focus economic pressure on moscow. >> again, just for those who aren't paying close attention at home, the united states congress just passed a $14 billion package of aid and assistance,

military assistance to the ukrainian government. and we'll see that, move that there as david ignatius said from his observations following general milley and his observations, it is an extraordinary number of troops, of weapons going across the border. we, of course, see horrific images like this. there is a humanitarian crisis of the first order going on in ukraine. several things are going on there at the same time. we need to keep them all in perspective and figure out again how we help the ukrainians without triggering world war iii. there is -- by the way, there are many things that we can do. there are many things we can do to be aggressive and helping that do not trigger world war iii. let me bring in, jonathan, also bring in willie and ed richard here. jonathan, you have been

following -- a sharp turn here. you have been following the negotiations between the owners and the players. it looks like baseball is back. what happened? how did this break so quickly? >> there is joy in loveville, joe. we do have baseball back. it was a sharp turn from a couple of days ago, major league baseball saying we're cancelling another week of game, you are going to lose out on the first two weeks of the season, but they were closer there than i think the public perception realized. i had talked to people on both sides of it. they had made real progress on the core economic issues at that point, the last sticking point was the international draft which threw a wrench into the plans there in the 11th hour two nights ago. once they agreed to set that aside, said we'll come back to that and figure it out, the rest of it fell into place. the deal was struck yesterday. both sides agreed to it. free agency opened up last night so we will see a flurry of

player moves and trades coming in the next days. they're still going to play all 162 games. we're going to get a full season. nothing was cut. they will make it up with double headers and so on. we go back to full nine-inning headers, we get rid of the ghost runner on second base. the national league going to have a designated hitter. no more pitchers hitting in either leagues. willie, most importantly, simply baseball is back. we will have a few season. it would have been catastrophic for the sport had they missed extended time. we avoided that, and i know our kids are so excited to have the game back. >> joe, i know that the people in the room yesterday finally looked at each other and said what we've been saying for a month now, are we really going to do this to our game, let's figure this out.

it moved quickly. remember, a week ago as jon said they weren't talking, it failed talks. then you have guys reporting today and mandatory by sunday. spring training games start next week and as john said all they did was slide opening day back a week. you are getting the full schedule, 162 games so baseball is back. i think we all grew up watching baseball in the same era. we will miss watching a pitcher get hit, go to first base and put on the warm-up jacket as he ran the bases. we will miss that part of the dame. you have dhs in the national league. it will be a different game a little bit but we will play ball. >> and the good news is for all of the small towns that dot the landscape for minor league baseball from port st. lucie to phoenix, arizona, they will be getting the tourists coming in. there you go. richard, it is very interesting.

an insider told me -- mike barnicle -- that actually boris and his -- his players that were actually on -- scott and the players that were on the board actually didn't like this deal and the rest of the players ran over 'em, sensing, you know what, we got to get back out there. we got to start playing baseball again. >> there's a financial incentive also for players. time isn't your friend. if you lose another season at some point your shelf life begins to run out. so players have an incentive, shockingly enough to play. this is what they've prepared for. it is not quite now or never but something like that, so it is good. joe, april 7th, red sox/yankees, opening day just the way it should be. >> there you go. >> just the way it should be. >> all right. coming up. after reality, we will talk to a ukrainian mother of two who survived a bombing.

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♪♪ hey, 6:47 on a friday. >> yeah. >> it is friday, thank god. the sun coming up over the capitol. richard haass, let's follow up with a conversation we had earlier with ambassador mcfaul, who said putin constantly has us on our back heels, we are constantly reacting to him, responding to him. we don't want to trigger world war iii, as the ambassador said. that's in effect what a no-fly zone would do. but understanding that, how can we be more aggressive? how can we be disruptors here instead of constantly responding to the disruption that vladimir

putin spreads across the region and the world every day? >> one thing, joe, would be to look at the quantity and quality of weaponry that's going into ukraine. i think that's the single most important thing, particularly the quality. what could we do to, you know, we sent anti-tank, anti-aircraft systems, that would be a one-two. i think we ought to try to head off certain kinds of escalation and we ought to be warning putin privately, for example, if he does this with cyber or something like that what we would do in sponsor chemicals. things we like, why wouldn't we say if you use chemicals among other things we would target the russian energy sector, something very clear like that. thirdly, as i mentioned before, i would look at the china angle. i have no illusions of how hard it would be to influence china but right now china is russia's economic and diplomatic lifeline. it cannot be good for the united

states that these two rival powers are closer to one another than either one is to the united states. >> so richard. >> yes, sir. >> can i stop you there? >> yes, sir. >> and let's say something really unpopular right now. we are at war. this world is at war, and it can escalate into world war iii. when we were in world war ii we were allied with one of the most evil men of the 20th century in stalin, and you have republicans and democrats both seeing who can bash china the most. i understand why. i could list 1,000 reasons why we have to bash china. right now though, just as you told me fdr said, i would make an alliance with the devil if it would beat hitler. right now we have to look at countries like china, we have to look at countries like saudi arabia, we have to look at countries that we are deeply offended by their actions in the past and understand that we may

be where fdr was very, very soon and we need to figure out a way to make -- make it a common -- have at least a common understanding with the chinese. because right now with the republicans and the detectives doing everything they can to bash china around the clock, which i understand why in peacetime, but what incentive do the chinese have to cross putin? >> you're exactly right. the chinese would go, why the hell should we do the united states any sort of a favor? we're not going to get rewarded for it. we still have the tariffs in place that the trump administration put there even though there's no sign they're working. so why don't we lift those? why don't we offer to have a new communique with china? he just had one with russia, where we talk about something that matters to them, a

one-china policy, and with a commitment to taiwan maybe you do it in a way that reassures china. help them possibly on climate change. we need an agenda, but right now you have this bar unity of bashing china and this is not the time for it. if putin is the more strategic threat to our interests and he clearly is, china is a longer term challenge, we should prioritize. we should sequence this and we have to figure out a way of getting china more distant from mr. putin. imagine what it would be if xi picked up the phone and called putin, this isn't working for me, i don't want to get caught up in the secondary sanctions the americans are put on. this isn't helping me get what i want more, my third term, cool it, vlad. imagine if we could engineer that kind of a phone call. i'm not saying we can, but wow.

isn't that the purpose of diplomacy, to try to move the pieces on the chess board? why aren't we doing more there? >> the one thing dr. brzezinski always talked about when he came on the show is countries surprisingly enough always act in their own self interest. it is inchem bent on us to figure out what kind of deal will they take to get xi to pick up the phone, call putin and tell him to stop. as richard said, that is the very essence of diplomacy. you do things you are uncomfortable with sometimes. you move out of that zone of comfort and you strike deals with different -- we did it after 9/11. what did we hear after 9/11? we're going to have to make alliances with countries we may not have made alliances with before we were attacked by al qaeda, and that's what we did. guess what. the iranians gave us a lot of

intel. we worked with iran post-9/11. we worked with other countries we would have never imagined working with before 9/11. >> right. >> we have to start thinking that way now. it would help, it would help if republicans and democrats on capitol hill gave the signal to the white house that they understand we were at war, we want to save ukraine, we want to back away from a possible nuclear confrontation and biden has the space, the administration has the space to work with china. >> to do this well. >> to work with saudi arabia to defuse the crisis. >> and there are probably at the very least dozens of other options all happening at the same time. still ahead, ukraine was supposed to be their escape from war. now people who fled the middle east are having to do it all over again. our coverage continuing with that. we will be right back.

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european union leaders met at the palace of versailles for a wartime summit. as "the washington post" reports, as the russian invasion continues the eu will have to answer how far it is willing to go. an e.u. proposal to drastically cut, though not ban, russian gas imports is expected to leave countries scrambling to secure scarce supply and also squabbling over sharing the burden. a big issue throughout was zelenskyy's urgent plea to join the european union. in a recent speech to the european parliament, the ukrainian leader all but begged the bloc to let his country in. european lawmakers and officials greeted the speech with a standing ovation and kind words, but in the days since it has become clear the e.u. nations are divided on what to do about ukrainian's request and seem to be seeking a way to say no or at least not yet without saying so directly. mika. >> joining us now, host and

executive producer of "the circus" on show time, msnbc national affairs analyst john heilemann. john, you are recently back from eastern europe, meetings with leaders there. tell us what you heard from the heads of some of the other e.u. nations. >> yeah, well, mika, after i left and saw your brother in poland i headed up to estonia to catch the last stop of the secretary of state's tour as he went through the baltic states. so he hit latvia and lithuania on monday and finished up the trip in estonia on tuesday. as you know, you know, the baltics have been -- you know, for 20 years have been kind of foretelling what is happening now, saying vladimir putin is going to come after us, he is going to do something big. you saw it in georgia and you ignored it. you saw it in crimea and you ignored it, and they were mocked and ridiculed for being kind of paranoid. now suddenly they look

prescient. and tony blinken got an ear full from all of those prime ministers and presidents in those countries saying we have to win this war because if he wins he is coming after us next. we appreciate your deterrence, but we need more defense here, we need more nato troops, we're vulnerable. i was in estonia with the last of the meetings with the 44-year-old prime minister who i went up and talked to after she left with tony blinken. we got into a conversation and it was similar to what you have been talking about and joe was hit on earlier was the delicate balance of the west. these people are hawkish on putin but they're tuned into the notion of how much can we do to help ukraine without going so far as to trigger world war iii. it was the kind of question i asked her. take a listen to what she had to say. >> right now the goal is to stop this war and to stop the russian

aggression, not to expand the war. and, of course, we are trying to help ukraine massively, and we are with the military defense weaponry. this is something that has not been there before. >> the human suffering on the ground that we're seeing all of this video of the indiscriminate bombings, the whole world is watching with horror. what do you imagine how this ends? >> it is heartbreaking. i mean we are doom scrolling, you know, our phones all the time. it is like really, and i'm asking this question all the time, but what else can we do? but also i mean, you know, is there somewhere, some how putin can back off from this? i mean in poker terms, he has gone all in. so he either win or he loses, and i think for us putin has to lose this war. >> so, john, before this, this

outbreak of war, before joe biden's state of the union address, i would guess most people in estonia, latvia, lithuania would not think that the united states would come to its rescue if putin attacked. is there -- i understand they want more troops and i agree personally as an american. they need more troops there, they need more military support there, but do you think at this point they have been convinced that the assurances of the president and the secretary of state, that not one inch of nato territory will be given to vladimir putin? do you think that has given them the assurance that the united states will be there for their allies? >> i do, joe. i talked to the prime minister about that directly. i sensed that not just in terms of talking points but in reality that the demonstrations, not just the assurances of the president and the secretary of state and now i'm sure the vice president, have convinced them.

but the kind of -- and, again, it is another theme you guys have been on all week, which is they are impressed by the degree of unity that has resulted from putin's invasion into ukraine. they look around and see -- there was a quick reference made in the clip to the notion that the reason the arms are flowing in the ukraine, and david ignatius you said wrote about it, and to the public it is largely visible and with good reason. she pointed out that this is new, we could have this kind of unity in western europe in general and in nato in particular and be able to flood the zone with the kind of weaponry and other aid we are giving to ukraine, gives them a kind of confidence that same kind of unity would be applied if vladimir putin were to come after one of the baltic states. as you know, they sit right on the border with russia. they're not even on the border of ukraine. estonia is sitting right there, it is 100 miles to st. petersburg. they live with it every day and

remember what it was like to be under soviet rule, it was only 30 years. the prime minister's mother and grandmother were shipped off to a gulag in siberia and survived. >> wow. >> right now they feel the strength of unity in the west. they want to make sure that putin loses this war, not that he can somehow figure out an off ramp or get some land in exchange for a cease-fire. they think that's appeasement in a way or that's kind of weakness. she was just all over the notice of dictators only deal with strength, and every time he has tried something, he has walked away with something for his trouble. we must make sure he walks away with nothing here. a very hard line on that question, that victory against him must be total in this war. >> well -- >> all right. >> -- that's a sort of hard line that i suspect you must take when you are miles away from st. petersburg. john heilemann, thanks so much.

we greatly appreciate. "the circus" airs on show time. >> and you can catch the full interview. >> on sunday and catch a full interview. john under lined something about the weapons, the massive amount of weapons moving from poland into ukraine. there's a lack of proper context in the news, in what americans are seeing and what americans are reading. those shipments, as john said, are obviously done quietly. we don't announce them. we don't invite cnn and fox and msnbc to take pictures of those pictures going in, the massive amount of wen on-s that are going in every single day to help the freedom fighters. but we do have everybody obsessing on 29 old migs and holding press conferences on

capitol hill and writing op-eds or writing editorials in the "wall street journal" and focusing on that one part of the story. it is unfortunate because it is giving americans a skewed sense of this. what does that do? that leads them into thinking we must do more. we must up the ante in a way that actually goes beyond helping the ukrainians and triggers world war iii. there are so many things that we can do to be aggressive. >> and are doing. >> and are doing. >> and there are hundreds of things that can be happening at once. but here are the developments at seven past the hour this morning as russia widens its attacks in ukraine, hitting new targets in the western part of the country and pushing closer to nato territory. new video of vladimir putin speaking alongside his

belarusian counterpart this morning. >> the table is getting smaller. >> they're moving closer. after approving 15,000 foreign fighters to help the russian military. this morning president biden is expected to announce plans to revoke russia's status as most favored nation, allowing the u.s. to slap tariffs on russian imports. vice president kamala harris arrived in romania just moments ago, the second leg of her visit to eastern europe as the war in ukraine rages into day 16. richard haass and jonathan lemire are still with us. let's bring in staff writer at "the atlantic," anne applebaum, and news director for "new lines" magazine, michael weiss. it is good to have you on the show. anne applebaum, we were speaking last hour about replacing the words no-fly zone with declaration of war. there is a concern we are simplifying this too much and that even limited to

humanitarian quote declarations of war or no-fly zones would be impossible at this time. >> i think the difficulty is that it has been a very long time since we had a proxy war with russia. i think the last time was probably the war against the soviet union in afghanistan in the 1980s and it was a completely different situation where there was no threat of nuclear war. so i understand why people are worried. they don't know what the rules are. we don't have the same kinds of hotlines. we don't have the same knowledge of the inner circle of putin that we once had of the soviet politboro. on the other hand i believe we have allowed putin to determine what is escalation and what is not. i would like to see us be much more creative about what we do. we could start military exercises in the baltic sea on a major scale and draw russian troops away from ukraine. we could start more intensive

training of ukrainians outside of the country and bringing them in. i think we need to begin thinking creatively about how to win the war, how to keep putin on the back foot and to think about how to do that obviously without provoking a wider conflict. >> well, and you are so right. that seems to be the challenge, anne, is how can we be aggressive, how can we stop just responding to one disruption after another disruption from vladimir putin. just talking about syria, even the threat of sending 2,500 troops back into syria as peacekeepers instead of turning that entire country over to him or possibly, what about the possibility of doing in ukrainian what we did in syria. go to the u.n., go to the general assembly and get humanitarian zones so vladimir putin can't say, this is imperialist america or this is nato doing america's bidding.

instead, say, oh, really, vlad, you're going to threaten nuclear weapons against the united nations. >> there's a group of ukrainian civic organizations, over 100 groups that have come together and made a list of things that they want, and one of them is exactly that. you know, create green corridors, create humanitarian zones. that's been done in other wars. it can be done in this one. another idea is something we -- you know, from our own pass playbook, what about airlifts of food and water to people in besieged cities. we did it in berlin in the 1940s. so beginning to think about how we can help in ways that are clearly not provocative, i think that's something we should be doing now. >> anne is obviously speculating about things the west could be doing, and we're sighing -- michael, we are seeing the russians start to make perhaps moves, that convoy has broken up, the troops and trucks are dispersing, slowly moving to

kyiv. we have seen strikes in the west of the country they have not done to this point. i know you have a lot of contacts on the ground there. give us a sense of what ukrainians are doing and what is happening with the russian equipment. >> the ukrainians are going on a counteroffensive. they have taken about three cities. they're actually pushing back russian personnel in certain key areas. look, i have been doing 18-hour days for the last two weeks trying to monitor furiously everything that's open source intelligence available. i have seen more videos of burnt out russian tanks, btrs, air defense systems that have simply been left in pristine condition by the side of the road. you know, we are talking about figures killed in action. the europeans are saying there's about 12,000 personnel losses on the russian side but it encompasses casualties, not just fatalities. casualties are people who are injured, rendered combat

inoperable, people who deserted. i spoke to a head of military said that they're fleeing into the woods, occupying civilian homes, not fighting this war, just going on rampages. if i'm sitting in the pentagon or the cia trying to figure out the manpower loss on the russian side, i wouldn't look at just dead russian soldiers. look at the equipment, the kit that's been abandoned, desertions. try to figure out what's the average crew for a t-90 tank system, an air defense system and start to calculate. the russian losses have been far greater than i think even the u.s. is prepared to go on record with. i spoke a few days ago to the head of a european intelligence service who said then -- and he was basing this based on old information, he calculated 7,000 to 9,000 killed in action on the russian side, orders of magnitude higher than anything they've seen in any war recently. i think it took a few years in afghanistan to reach those

levels of fatalities. >> we have top russian generals killed and some unhappiness from putin on some of his leaders, willie. >> yes, and some of the december practices from vladimir putin is leading to concerns from u.s. intelligence officials russia could use chemical or biological weapons in ukraine. the white house yesterday rejected claims from russia that the united states is operating biological weapons research in ukraine and said moscow could be making the false accusation to justify its own plans. speaking about the biological weapons claim, ukraine's president zelenskyy said yesterday, if you want to know russia's plans, look at what russia accuses others of. here is william burns, cia director, speaking this week. >> whether it is the potential of the use of chemical weapons either as a false flag operation or against ukrainians, this is

something as you all know very well is very much a part of russia's playbook. they've used those weapons against their own citizens. they've at least encouraged the use in syria and elsewhere. so it is something we take very seriously. >> so, richard, as russia continues to flail there's bad information out from one of the embassies from russia saying coronavirus was created in a lab in the ukraine, the united states was involved. they're trying to find some way in. how real is this concern about the use potentially of chemical or biological weapons by putin? >> i actually think it is all too real. the cia director, bill burns, said it is part of their playbook. it is. they've used chemical agents to get rid of dissidents. obviously it has been used in syria and it is a real terror weapon. it complicates military defense, but mainly it is a civilian terror weapon. also a bioweapon is the same

thing. they're not precise, but if the russian goal is to depop late large parts of urban areas, to get literally hundreds of thousands of or millions of people out west or even out of the country, then the threat of it, the talk of it or one or two incidents of it might be effective from the russian point of view. so i think it is a real possible and the hard thing for us to think about is what, if anything, we can do to defer it and how do we respond to it. it is a question easier posed than answered. >> that's also the fastest way to open the door to united nations taking a vote in the general assembly and getting peace keeping troops in ukraine, if he were to do that. anne, i wanted to ask you about this russian misinformation about biolabs in ukraine. i want to ask you specifically because it followed your work

about americans, about people on the trump right who are actually parroting russian propaganda every day and every night for consumption among trump readers, listeners and viewers. >> one of the things that the right learned from russia was how to use conspiracy theory to create lack of trust in voters, listeners and watchers. the use of false stories with -- you know, that allege really horrific crimes is one of the ways in which they do it. so, you know, if you imagine that your state is capable of mass murder then you will immediately feel a lack of doubt in its institutions and its voting systems and so on. we had a few weeks ago tucker carlson produced a documentary on fox news that was all

about -- it was on a fox news edition, but it was all about how the fbi and the u.s. military and all kinds of secret groups were really responsible for january 6th, and that was, again, an attempt to create among fox news watchers a sense that the -- you know, the united states can't be trusted, my government can't be trusted, the institutes are all fake, that's what the russians do and that's what the part of the pro-russian or really putin-imitating part of the american right does now too. >> michael weiss, talk about the outlook. you have talked about the ukrainians that have done some counteroffenses. >> yes. >> what is -- it is almost like we are seeing two wars being fought, one in the north, one in the south. does it seem that -- how -- does it seem that the russians are

much more successful in the south than putin is ultimately going to achieve his goal of getting to odesa? >> i wouldn't say they're more successful but they're had more success in the south than in the north for sure. today the lithuanian defense minister announced, and you just did a segment on how the baltic states have good intelligence, he announced how an attempt to take odesa was repulsed by ukrainians, claiming that ukrainians shot down two aircraft. even in the one city that they've managed to occupy, meaning the russians, kherson, you have seen ukrainian maching up to soldiers and telling them to go home. it is not going well for them at all. they've not won hearts and minds. they will face a huge policing

or counterinsurgency problem. i interviewed a guy a few days ago who is number two in command for an organization that is already preparing for guerilla warfare. he is training fighters in two different camps in central and western ukraine. i said, where are the fighters now. he said we're embedded in the ukraine armed services, the idea being if these guys are taken off, if the units collapse the guerillas will take off fatigues, put on civilian clothing and start blowing stuff up. >> michael, what makes no sense here is obviously putin and the russians don't have enough troops. >> right. >> to win here. then after winning if they were to do that, to occupy, you look at kyiv. most american generals looking at that and looking how big the city is -- i understand the circumference of it is sort of like chicago and the beltway around chicago. you have a river going through

it. bridges blown up. 3 million people, an angry population. most american generals wouldn't dare go in and try to occupy that city without 250,000 troops. >> not only that. >> and the russians don't even have that much in the entire country. this is -- this is -- there is no positive end game for putin here. >> right. and it does not bode well he is saying we're going to call militias from syria who, frankly, have never faced a conventional army, much less one with an air force still intact. we are almost three weeks in and ukraine's fixed wing fighter jets, their rotary helicopters, their drones, you were talking about creative solutions, let me just say turkey is continuing to send their drones which have been used to devastating effect by the ukrainians, previously used in libya by turkish-backed forces fighting russian-backed

forces in libya, these drones are still coming. turkey, we may not like to admit the fact but they're still a member of nato. when putin drew up his long list of countries hostile to russia based on sanctions and untoward activities such as arming ukraine, guess which country was left off the list? turkey. because putin and erdogan have a strange bromance/friendship. how is it that turkey is managing to give ukraine good drones they love to use without incurring the wrath of the kremlin. an interesting question i would be asking if i'm in dod or in the cia in the united states. >> for years people have been asking why turkey is still in nato. we have been hearing that erdogan is helping the ukrainians. can you pick it apart and help us understand it better? >> the reason people are asking the question is turkey is a

formal member of nato but often doesn't act like an ally. they bought a massive air defense system from the russians, things like that. but russia and turkey have been at loggerheads in syria. they have different goals there and i think it put the relationship on a downward spiral. turkey is worried about this and they've essentially made it very difficult for russian war ships to access the black sea. i think it goes back to your conversation before. we had real difficulties is turkey as with others. the answer is quite possibly we may have to overlook aspects of the erdogan regime that we have diss taste for, including the fact he jails more journalists than any other country, but right now we may need to figure out a common cause because, as michael said, the drones among other things are making a real question. it also raises the question, why aren't we and the israelis providing drones as well. this ought to be the sort of

thing going into ukraine wholesale. >> a lot of questions, richard haass, michael weiss, anne applebaum, thank you for trying to answer them. still ahead on "morning joe," new accusations of war crimes by the russian army. ukrainians say civilians are being targeted in what are supposed to be humanitarian corridors. plus, we are going live to poland where most of ukraine's refugees are. how the humanitarian effort is holding up as nearly 1.5 million people have crossed the border. our coverage continues in just a moment. we hit the bike trails every weekend shinges doesn't care.

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coming up on the bottom of the hour, the list of reports of possible war crimes in ukraine is growing as cities continue to be bombed and more than 2 million refugees have fled to neighboring european countries. the associated press spoke to a number of refugees who detailed the horrors he heard as they left ukraine. one man saying he heard gunshots and saw bodies along the road. he said, quote, they promised to have a humanitarian corridor, they were shooting at refugees. i witnessed it. one said, yes, i saw corps of civilians. they shoot at civilians with machine guns. the united nations human rights office says more than 500 civilians have been killed so far including 37 children in the two weeks since russian invaded. joining us now from the polish border with ukraine, nbc news

correspondent kelly cobiella where she has been for several weeks. kelly, the vast majority of the 2 million refugees from ukraine have come into poland. what is it looking like there today? >> reporter: well, just as busy as ever, willie. you can see just behind me here this is one of the aid stations where volunteers and donors are offering up all sorts of supplies like diapers, like kids toys, some winter hats. so families come here and they get what they need and they're sort of helped by the army of volunteers to figure out where to go next. in other words which city because these border towns, as i have been reporting over the past couple of days, are just full. there's no place to sleep. there's a spot to sit, get a warm drink, get a warm meal, but then they really do have to move on. you can see the row of van bess behind me. some of these are donors, who are volunteers, some are actually shuttle buses that will take people to different cities

here in poland and across europe. here is the next problem in the response. we are hearing from warsaw and krakow, the two biggest cities in poland, they're now becoming overwhelmed. we are hearing some refugees had to sleep at the central train station in warsaw, that they're struggling to find enough beds and set up shelters. in fact, one woman who is managing a sports hall that is turned into a shelter in warsaw posted on social media she is running out of food, water, medicine, all of it coming from donors, and her volunteers are exhausted. there's been some criticism from opposition parties as well as from some of these volunteers and aid groups that the central government simply isn't doing enough and doesn't have a plan. now, the government is pushing back and saying there's only so much he can do. it is an unprecedented situation having this volume of people come into the country all within

two weeks. 1.5 million to 2 million people. you can see behind me that it is not letting up. there is a lot of talk now about what's next, what's the big plan. willie. >> as you say, it is a massive operation without precedent in this short of a time. the polish government and the people of poland stepping up there. nbc's kelly cobiella in poland along the ukrainian border. thanks so much again. we appreciate it. mika. >> among the people forced to flee ukraine are some who in just the past few years fled to ukraine to escape different wars. "the washington post" is telling the story from citizens such as countries as syria, afghanistan and yemen who recently came to ukraine in an effort to get away from war only to find themselves

forced out again. the "post" writes one is an afghan data analyst who fled to kyiv after kabul fell, the takeover by the taliban. she escaped the ukrainian capital with a backpack she carried from kabul, some clothes and her laptop. the family of an 11-year-old ukrainian boy who reached slovakia alone with a phone number scrawled on his hand had already fled years ago from syria where russia intervened with a brutal war with airstrikes to back president bashar al assad. one refugee said now i feel that nothing is guaranteed in life. the way i left my friends in kabul, i left my ukrainian friends now, and i am worried about their safety because they welcomed me into their homes when i lost my home.

one yemeni said the situation in ukraine is worse than he experienced in his country. in yemen we were among our families and you reach a level where it no longer matters if you live or die. it is okay because we're together, he explained. but here it was difficult. we didn't know as many people. we couldn't quickly find a way out. coming up, we will speak with a mother of two who escaped fighting in the western part of ukraine after her home was bombed last week. before we go to break, earlier this week at the forbes 3050 summit in abu dhabi, hillary clinton honored two afghan women's rights activists, nahid fareed and zahifa fari. she left one week before kabul fell and she was a public

representative in her city and she had to leave it all behind quite literally overnight. over the last 20 years afghan women became ministers, activists, doctors, athletes and scientists. but with the return of the taliban they now have to fight for their rights all over again. on this week's episode of "mika straight up" i speak with nahid about the taliban's return to power, the heartbreak for her and the human rights crisis and what the international community can do to support afghan women at this urgent time. we are joined by milan viveer, the first u.s. bahamian for global women's issues, now the executive director for the georgetown institute for women, peace and security. for more information on how you can help contribute to their fight for afghan women's rights, visit mikastraightup.com. you can listen to our conversations wherever you stream your podcasts and on youtube. we will be back in a moment with

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[ screaming ] our next guest provided us with that video, the aftermath of an apartment bombing in ukraine last week. yulia sodova joins us now. she is a mother of two. she survived that attack, and, yulia, i'm reading more about that day that you say the walls were trembling and shaking. you fell to the floor and covered your ears. your husband went to check on

his parents. he saw bodies but it wasn't them. you hugged your children and thought it might be the last words you would say to them. just tell us what is the status of your family now? >> after that explosion it was very difficult because we found that our house -- to the house of my parents-in-law, is completely damaged. and my house just doesn't have any windows or doors and there are some damages on the walls, so it is very dangerous to live there. so the next day we were in a shelter again. we, in fact, didn't have -- but we were afraid to go out to the flat because it is so dangerous outside. we have bombing all the time, shooting all the time, and i must say that this is bombing

and shooting -- people's, you can see, just houses -- military -- in a shelter and we share one -- for eight. we had some food from -- from the -- fell down. but the next day decided to ee escape. of course, it was also very dangerous because the road was mined and it was risky to go. we didn't know whether we could possibly survive or not, but thanks to god we managed to go to the western ukraine and now we are in the city in western of ukraine. it is more or less quiet here. also we have here some -- emergency attentions when we need to go to the shelter. but here at least the houses are safe and the airport was damaged yesterday but thanks to god the

houses are safe right now. we don't know what is going to be next, but right now the situation is like this. >> yulia, how old are your children? share with us, if you can, what your conversations with them are like about this and about the future, about what is next. >> you know, now we don't think about the future. we only think about today's day, and we are happy that we are alive. in fact, my children are two boys, they are 11 and 13, and we were so happy to live in our peaceful country, to go to school and also have business. i had an educational center. i taught children english and we had many teachers, and everything ruined one day. we just put all our things in one bag and we ran away. now all our life is in that bag, but we are happy that we are still alive.

our children from time to time when we hear that the door is banging or just the door of the car closes, they are shaking because they think that maybe it is shooting or bombing. i don't think that we will forget this time. >> something no child, no person should ever have to know or feel. yulia, thank you so much for taking some time with us today. i'm so sorry for what you have been through. i'm so glad you are safe with your family. you said you have spoken with your family, your relatives in russia who are getting an entirely different story of what is happening in ukraine. they tell you, don't worry, vladimir putin is coming to save you. vladimir putin has said we're not targeting civilians, we're just going after military targets. obviously it is not true. what is your message to your russian relatives and to the people back in russia? >> i would like to say to russia that they have completely fake information. we don't want to be saved

because we are in safety in ukraine, we just want them to go back and not touch us because our ukrainian people are so friendly. even now while escaping i saw so many people helped us. people are crying because we don't want this russian peace. you see what kind of peace, and people in russia say that putin tries to save us from other ukrainians, from nation at least, but, in fact, it is not true now. i'm in western ukraine where ukrainian language has rather promoted but i see only friendly people. nothing is dangerous here. so we would like them to stop the war, just to look around because all the world, all the countries see what is the reality, and only their invasion -- they're just blind, like zombies.

they don't see the information. just stop and go home. don't kill our people, don't kill our children, please. >> it is just that simple. on the other hand, yulia, what is your message to the west? you have won the hearts and the support of people around the world. the united states and western europe have come together in support of ukraine. what more would you like to see? you have an american audience watching you right now. what more would you like to say to the american people? >> if you can, just send at least several dollars, please do it, and give some money to ukrainian army because our army is so brave. i'm so proud of ukraine, of our army, but we need help. of course, i know that all of the countries just give as much as you can, but maybe if just simple people also want to help, it is where they can. and also i would like to ask to close the sky because it is very

dangerous. it is so horrible when the bombs go from the sky and i felt it. we experienced. i wouldn't like any children to experience the same. so, please, do as much as you can to close the sky and help our army. i pray god will save ukraine. vladimir putin is issuing a new threat to companies, distancing themselves from russia. how the white house is responding to that ahead on "morning joe." use a lift new neutrogena® rapid firming. a triple-lift serum with pure collagen. 92% saw visibly firmer skin in just 4 weeks.

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. it's 51 past the hour. a live look at washington, d.c. a new threat from vladimir putin this morning saying russia could seize the assets of western companies that have suspended operations in the country. dozens of international businesses from almost every sector of the economy have abandoned joint ventures in response to russia's invasion of ukraine. this paz the kremlin pushes back against sweeping sanctions that have hit most of its financial sectors, including its central bank and russia's currency, the ruble. white house press secretary jen psaki wrote on twitter yesterday any lawless decision by russia to seize the assets of these companies will ultimately result in even more economic pain for russia. jonathan lemire, tell us more how the white house is responding to this. >> first of all, the white house is making clear, these companies are making their own decisions.

certainly, they have been supportive, cheered on american companies that pulled back out of russia. it's not like the administration is making them do so. these are private entities doing what they think is best. she did suggest this could trigger more sanctions, more than that send a message to american companies that are still there, that perhaps they would want to leave. this wouldn't be a good message. it can open up russia to potential legal action from these corporation, in, indeed, moscow moved to seize their assets and nationalize them. she went on to say, jen psaki, that she, they have talked to russian allies in the west including an unnamed oligarch that suggested a move would put russia's economy back to 1917 before the russian revolution when it was plagued by pure corruption and so on. so officials that i have talked to say this threat from putin, they're not sure how real it is, it is certainly a sign she feeling the economic pressure here. these companies are leaving.

not only is the ruble collapsing. the stockmarket has not been opened for two weeks, an exstrorld fare thing. he is getting push back from every day russian citizens as well as the oligarch class losing things they like to western companies including and who are unhappy with the results of this invasion. >> reporter: all right. still ahead as we cover every aspect of this, the port city of mariupol remains under siege after eight-straight days of attacks by russian forces. we will speak with the city's mayor plus ukraine's ambassador to the united states will be our

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let's get right to the latest development. russia bombs new targets this morning, including two airfields in the western part of the country. the battered city of mariupol in the midst of a humanitarian crisis. civilians are trapped there. the food supply is running low and the attacks keep coming. plus, new satellite images show the stalled convoy outside of kyiv have dispersed, fueling concern russia may be gearing up for a renewed push into the capital. president biden increasing economic pressure on russia with a call today to revoke russia's most favored nation status, allowing tariffs on russian imports. the eu is expected to join that move. ukraine's president posted a new statement moments ago saying his country has reached a turning point in the war declaring, quote, we are moving towards our goal, moving towards victory.

willie. mika, you just mentioned mariupol. they have humanitarian crisis there. it's marked the 8th consecutive days as trapped civilians struggle to find food and water. we are joined by the deputy mayor there sergei orlov. give us your assessment if you would of what is going on in our city. what are you seeing on the ground? >> during the overnight with the continued bombs and strikes from russian, from russian aircraft and those shell remote and in the morning the russian army continues to move two mariupol, so in some territory we even

have street battles on some part of our city. and this is a military situation. but the ukrainian army, national army still controls all the city internally. but from the humanitarian site, their whole day yesterday, russia bombed our city and a lost of destroyment, a lot of victims through citizens in our city. we cannot calculate how many. >> we know you need, mr. deputy mayor, food, water, medicine for the people who have been injured in your city. is any of that making it into mariupol? are they about it get the critical elements of well being to your people? >> no five or seven days before our cities claim to somehow to

stop shelling artillery bombing, but today they are claiming of some water and some food. unfortunately, it's not absolutely possible to transfer some humanitarian goods because russia totally blocked the city and that's not allowed to leave the city for any humanitarian or medical situation. yesterday, we have cases when about 100 of our cities try to leave our city, from the ukrainian chequepoint. there is a russian checkpoint. they start to shoot from armed weapon, not directly to the car, but around to push them go back. so it's not absolutely possible to go to mariupol at the moment. >> the world was shocked by the images of a maternity and children's hospital attacked by the sky from russian forces.

we saw pregnant women carried out on stretchers in your city. the russian government said there were ukrainian soldiers housed in there. that's why they attacked it. obviously, the images tell us a different story. what can you tell us about that hospital? who actually was inside that building? >> you know, yesterday, a good people appearing latvia, he told in the war we have light and we have official information of russian ministry of foreign affairs. so, in this case, it's the situation is like this, so we have in the center of our city medical come composts. one was destroyed, another one damaged. so we have 17 injuries and injured people. it's mostly pregnant women and

doctors. and three people unfortunately killed. one is a child. so i don't know where they see but maybe pregnant women or children, it's warriors. i don't know where they see this. >> it's truly appalling. you said a minute ago, mr. deputy mayor, ukrainian forces still control the city, that russia has not taken it over completely. how much longer do you believe that can hold, based on what we are seeing in the streets right now? >> i am not so sure that our army will defeat the city up to the last bullet. i don't know is it possible for many days or weeks. it's an issue for battles. i don't know. but you should understand that humanitarian situation decreases hour-by-hour and we cannot

defend our lives from airstrikes and air bomb and the use unmanaged bombs. they are destroying the city. >> sergei, there was a moment in the past few days where russian officials were trying to say that the bombing of the maternity clinic didn't happen. other things like this didn't happen. that it was lies. what do you want the world to know about the people of mariupol and what is happening there? >> 16 days before, we were a peace. country, a peaceful city. we were happy to lead the new ukraine into the ukrainian. personally i am half russian half ukrainian, so i can speak in russian without any limitation and without any damage for me. so it's absolutely forcible. we should know that last official numbers of killed

people in mariupol, it was three days before, it was 1,207. they just killed people in the streets. so everyone in the world should realize as least v half of them are ethnic russian. so in mariupol, putin and his army just killed russians and that is the russian war that they bring to ukraine. i asked to support ukraine to continue all that you say you bring to and to continue the support and give us opportunity to protect our allies from the attack from the air. >> do you know how much of the city has been destroyed or taken and how are you able to communicate with the people of your city? >> i think most of the city is destroyed. we have some cedrics without any buildings. so all the buildings received some damage.

either they destroyed either some damages they received and the situation comes worse and worse. it's not possible to communicate to citizens because there is no other city whereas it's only short messages and conversations face-to-face. so it's very difficult to communicate to people. >> is there any -- if people wanted to leave, is there anyway out? >> no way out. anyway out. russian troops do not allow even more humanitarian help, even children even child, women, adults, not allowed. they shoot with armed and pushed back to mar poll. >> deputy mayor of mariupol, sergei orlov, thank you so much for sharing everything with us. we wish you the best of luck and hope to speak to you again soon.

>> thank you. we have the view now from other city in ukraine kherson which became the first city to fall and become occupied by russia. nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley shows us what it's like to be under russian rule. >> reporter: kherson, you krarngs offers the first glimpses of russian occupation. after two weeks, it's the first and only major city to fall to russian forces. last week, its residents were proudly protesting against russian troops. but that's all changed. >> not only they block canadian us from food and medicine and bake necessities, but also they are preparing to imprison those who disagree, those who protest. >> reporter: 400 people were arrested according to ukrainian military. one big difference, the appearance of russia's national guard. this para-military force was

created in 2016 and answers directly to president putin. they're mostly deployed in russia as riot police. now they're in kherson, suppressing the same way they do in russia. in this video of a protest, russia's version of a police weapon. national guard are checking social media, looking around for their apartments, they're looking for people who are fighting against the russians in 2014. the city is being scrambled. the mayor says they only have about a week of food level. locals accuse them of looting. in this video, they appear to be pushing a shopping cart from a storm a person in a military uniform appears to shoot at a store. when it doesn't open, he breaks the glass. this war isn't between russia and ukraine, he said. that's just 21 of the steps to russia. russia is fighting right now with europe and the u.s.

an occupation that many here say is on the march p.. >> joining us now, ukrainian ambassador to the united states oxsanna markova. i'd like to start in the city of mariupol. we were just talking to the deputy mampl they are trapped, they can't leave and they are dying. what are the options? are there any on the table that you are hearing? >> thank you very much. i wish i could say good morning, unfortunately for 16 days, this is the phrase we use. we woke up again today to news that during this day in ukraine, mariupol continues to be encircled completely, shield embassy all the time. for three days now, russia denying anytime type of military corridors, which has been a priority now for president zelenskyy and all back home to essentially deliver the food, medical supplies and some water.

so we can stop you know this i wouldn't even call it humanitarian stage. war crimes, war crimes that have been done right in the open, in mariupol, but in any ukrainian city that is under attack right now. >> what are you hearing? i want to get back to mar poll. what are you hearing about ukrainian's fighting back, getting support from the west, from nato. are supplies getting to where they're needed? >> look, our government is there. we will not surrender, regardless of all the brutality that we witnessed in every village and city, regardless of russian's killing, trying to shoot us from the sky. regardless of these horrible scenes of hospitals, civilians, breaking in our homes, looting our homes. this surreal actually they would even call it whatever they call

it, because you know the false pretence at the beginning was somehow to fight to defend the russian-speaking population. look what they are doing to the east of ukraine to donbas, kharkiv, this is just, you know, war crimes, a neighboring country simply attack us and killing, fighting not only with the armed forces, actually not trying to fight with the armed forces but trying to disintegrate women, men, children, destroying our homes, destroying our -- so we will fight. the resolve is there and actually the more atrocities they do everyone is committed actually to defend our homes and we just need all the support that we can get. we are getting the defensive support. we need more. we need especially the effective anti-air and but, of course, we

are getting it. we need to speed everything up. >> that's what i mean, mechanically, the defensive support, getting into the hands of ukrainians that can use it. is it slow? what are the problems? what are ways that can make it move forward more effectively? >> well, our partners and ukraine are doing everything to make it more effective. we have to be very clear here. there is only one aggressor here. it's russia. it's russia that has attacked. it's russia that is shelling all the cities. i want to draw attention, during today, they shoot on the western ukraine. they are shooting boots on the northwest of ukraine. it's them who are denying the basic right and everything else. so we are working together as partners to make it more effective. but i think the focus now is how to stop putin, how to stop him from doing what he is doing to

ukraine. >> ambassador markova, thank you for being with us. president zelenskyy you know just a few minutes ago believes the war reached a strategic turning point for ukraine. that the world will be one. what inspired him to say that, what are you seeing on the ground? what are you hearing from military commanders that lead to you that opinion? >> well, first of all, the president is in kyiv and he's leading the country through this. and if you go back to the beginning of the war, even before that, many people said kyiv would call in 24 hours, ukrainians will not fight, we are not even talking about the russians, that somehow they will be met -- it's 16 days, we are in this david/goliath flight. we are the smaller country. we are the country defending our territory.

we are peaceful, we never attacked anyone. we planned our peace. developments how we can defend our citizens. we are brutally attacked, we are defending our homes, regardless of what they are doing to us. the resolve is there, everyone is committed to defending our country. i believe morally we have won toke. now we together with all the civilized world have to do everything possible to preserve every life. that's why we need this fight. we need all of us do more to stop this. >> president putin rallied the world. he's brought europe together with the united states like we haven't seen perhaps since world war ii. he has crippled his own economy. the ruble collapsed, inflation is through the roof. so in your assessment of vladimir putin, knowing what you know about him, what do you believe may stop him if none of

that will? >> well, i am not a specialist to assess an individual person. but we, the picture is very clear here, in the 21st century, a dependent sovereign country was attacked by its neighbor who waged full war. it's a litmus test for all the international security structure. are we together able to do everything it takes to stop it and prevent it from happening in any other places? this is what we all have to focus now. and the peace can only be reached through strength. ukrainians have that strength. we need everyone with us and to show that strength. >> madam ambassador, thanks for joining us this morning. as just discussed, there has been remarkable strengthening in the alliances, europe and u.s. moving in lockstep.

one is about the use of russia's oil and gas. the united states band imports, a few days ago, as president zelenskyy asked. europe has not taken that step. they provide a lot of russia's economy. what is your ma edge to those leaders in those european capitals who have been reluctant to take that step so far, for fear of rising energy prices and cold winters in people's homes, compare that to what your people are going through? >> well, again, it's a fight for ukraine's existence for us, for our homes k. but it's also a fight for democracy and freedom. if other countries are not willing to fight this fight together with us, they can actually implement all the sanctions to push russia to stop. to make sure that this is not a normal behaviour. now the foreign minister of finance, i understand how difficult it is. but as you rightfully said, it's about right and wrong now.

it's not about the financial woes. we are losing lives and there will be more lives lost not only if you crane but everywhere in europe if we do not stop putin. so it's time to step up and demand all the sanctions in order to stop putin. >> ambassador oksana markova, thank you for being on with us. >> thank you. still ahead, treating the wounded. we have a look at the doctors and nurses running to the front lines in ukraine. plus, can ukrainian freedom fighters stand up to the russian military? a claim to war journalists sebastian younger says history suggests they can. he will join us for that. and the impacts, sour soaring inflation and gas prices are having on the u.s. economy. a lot to still get to.

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. the u.s. ban on russian oil has already sent gas prices rising. yesterday the inflation rate hit another 40-year high. nbc news correspondent morgan chesky has the latest on the impact on consumers. >> reporter: this morning new inflation numbers confirming the struggle facing millions of americans. >> every week it's something new. it's beef prices. it's produce. it's avocados. it's takeout containers. now it's fuel. >> reporter: fuel, food and shelter the biggest drivers behind inflation's highest increase in four decades, the consumer price index report showing a 79% rise over the last year. in washington, the biden administration acknowledging it may get worse before it gets better. blaming putin as a primary contributor.

>> the american people know how important this fight is. they know as painful as the price is today, the costs will be higher if we do not act to deal with this tyrant. >> reporter: many households feeling the pinch, rental costs soaring. >> the represent was just changed from 650 to 800. >> reporter: when it comes to filling up, the national average of gas hitting a staggering 4.33. a new aaa survey found for most americans $4 a gallon is the tipping point. others -- >> i don't want to know right now. i just flip the card. >> reporter: grocery staples on a steady rise, a gallon of milk up 50 cents, a dozen eggs up 40 cents, bacon spiking more than 1.30 over the last year. in dallas, every little bit extra adding up. >> it will be a 3.50 charge for the pork. >> reporter: the veteran cook turning out as many orders as he

can with a profit margin slipping. so the price for this philly cheese steak, the same, what about the cost? >> the cost has gone up. >> reporter: in what? >> in everything from the mushrooms to the marinade, the onions, the peppers, the bread. >> reporter: the price of your food, fuel and shelter combining a frustrating recipe for the days ahead. >> that was nbc's morgan chesky reporting. and coming up, a report from a ukrainian hospital on the front lines where some staff have no training treating shrapnel or gunshot wound. but they are a part of the warrest. that's next on "morning joe." warrest. that's next on "morning joe. ly . because i won't let uc stop me from being me. zeposia can help people with uc achieve and maintain remission. and it's the first and only s1p receptor modulator approved for uc. don't take zeposia if you've had a heart attack, chest pain, stroke or mini-stroke,

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as we've mentioned, there are reports this morning that russian forces are moving closer to ukraine's capital kyiv. doctors and nurses are running a

front line medical city working around the clock to treat ukrainian soldiers. alex crawford from sky news, has the latest from the edge of kyiv. >> reporter: they are stuffed into car boots. and on the back seats, they're taking some terrible hits trying to stop the russian kroops entering the ukrainian capital, laid down already blood-soaked stretchers. the soldiers have just been shield on the front line, which is creeping ever closer to kyiv. and it's the nearest hospital now entirely turned over to dealing with the war wounded. these aren't army medics. they're the town's doctors and nurse who's two weeks ago were dealing with births and bone breaks. now they've plunged into a new world, spent trying to save the lives of soldiers and civilians torn apart by bombs and bullets. >> it's world war iii.

>> reporter: it's world war iii. >> and it could be stopped here with the whole world, help us stop this war. >> reporter: they are shell-shocked and shaking and so far the politician's peace talks have gotten nowhere. hospitals are protected location under international law. but no one here trusts that to be observed. yet, there is an astonishing visitor and realization they have no option. it's not difficult for us to fight each others. we are defending our land and we will protect it. then he delivers a rousing call, not just to his follow ukrainian men and women, also the rest of the world. everyone has to stand together, he says. dploer to ukraine, our army will win. this is on the northwest edge of the capital. and we found multiple vehicles and homes which have been hit,

apparently indiscriminately. there seems to be no shortage of lucky escapes. he was on doubt as an emergency worker. there are thousands of lives abruptly haltedpy by this war. pets abandoned in the rush to keep out of the bombs. families that left everything just to survive. >> there is a constant shelling going on. you can see some of the devastation the attacks have already had. we know according to locals here the russians are only a few kilometers down the road and this is the constant backdrop. >> reporter: so those who can't or won't leave, live in a shadowing underground world below the booming war sound. about half of the capital's population has fled the city,

according to mayor. we're just waiting for victory, for everything to be good again, she says, i'm trying not to cry. these are the bravest of women tending to some of the community's most vulnerable and most frightened. we've already learned how to tell the difference between our side's shooting and the enemies, we can identify everything. we're trying to keep everyone calm. they're already living under siege here with sons and partners fighting and their homes bombed. for sure, this is a crime. and putin has to be punished, she tells us. it includes a former british soldier had to pass through russian troops to escape and saw dozens of civilian targets have been attacked. >> i saw a lot of vehicles,

civilian vehicles on the road, dead bodies inside on the road. these are vehicles, people have been parking their vehicles with ukrainian with children, a bunch of those vehicles also destroyed with children markings. >> reporter: they're engaged in the fight of their lives to stop the russian troops advancing any further. but their president's warning, much more of their blood will be spilled unless his nation gets international military support. coming up, can ukrainian freedom fighters stand up to the russian military? history suggests, they can. best selling author and war correspondent sebastian younger joins us next. we are back on "morning joe." n. we are back on "morning joe. en'? does it float off into the clouds? daddy! (frustrated grunts) you might have your own theory.

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. 38 past the hour. russian forces continued their

advances into ukraine as civilians attempt to free the violence through humanitarian corridors in many ukrainian cities. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel reports. >> reporter: russia opened new fronts overnight, attacking two ukrainian cities no the first time time while russian troops are accelerating their avans on kyiv. satellite images show the convoy stalled for days on the outskirts because of fuel shortages is back on the move, disperseing and redeploying. u.s. officials warns russia is trying to actively encircle the capital. ukrainian forces are not going to make it easy. they're on the offensive, too,

trying to push back russian troops from kyiv. intense and on the ground. u.s. officials say it could take one-to-two weeks for russia to surround kyiv and another month to occupy the city. across the country, it seems the entire population is on the move or planning for it. as of this morning, 12 humanitarian corridors have been set up to evacuate people out of cities being attacked by russian forces, often moves those internally and precariously displaced to cities that may soon be in tack. the 2.5 million ukrainians have become the eastern generation of refugees, the most since world war ii. one ukrainian city remains largely cut off in mariupol, where russia bombed a maternity hospital and they are forced to bury the dead in mass graves.

russian president vladimir putin seems unfazed by it all saying russia will overcome sanctions and pointing to rising gas prices in the united states. russia is ac sell rating its propaganda war and veering into dangerous territory. the russian defense ministry spokesman accused the pentagon of having biological laboratories. the u.s. worries rush may use chemical weapons and then try to blame ukraine for it. >> joining us now, professor of history at tulane university sebastian junger. his most repeat book is titled "freedom." in your latest piece in "vanity fair" can ukrainian freedom fighters stand up to the russian

military? you write from street-corner fistfights to insurgenies and wars, size is a terrible predictor for the kout come of human conflict. most successful underdog groups have three things in common and ukraine has all of them. first, such groups need tore a clear, moral purpose with deep roots in the history of the pop ladies and gentlemen. successful underdog groups also require fearless leadership. leaders who are not willing to accept the same risks and hardships as their followers in times of war will not remain leaders and most rebellions will fail. the final component of successful underdog groups are women. putin is facing a moral enemy with brave leadership and heavy female involvement. history shows that if he does not win quickly, he may never win at all and sebastian, women are stepping up in ukraine into

the fight. >> yeah. i looked at mixed situations. this is open warfare, but if you look into the labor movement. the civil rights movement. freedom movements all over the world, that once you get women involved, they bring the sort of moral authority that a group of men in the street you know risk looking like just a riot. right. but with women in there, it has to be taken seriously and despots are actually sometimes hesitant to fire on groups of women in the street. i looked at the labor movement in lawrence, massachusetts in 1912 and when they put women on the front lines, facing the bayonets. one police chief said one cop can handle ten men. it handles ten cops to handle one woman, there is a greater power once women are involved. >> walter, it's fascinating, we have been talking about that

some time with a friend from the region yesterday that you not only have women, grandmothers going out to russian soldiers and saying things, verbally assaulting them, telling them to get the heck out of their country. but the russian soldiers are looking at woman who look an awful lot like their grandmothers, some who speak russian. these has put these young conscripts in a position most soldiers are not used to being put in. >> and when you do things like bomb a maternity hospital, that's when you really help bring people out on the streets and especially mothers and women and it makes occupation hard. one of the things history tells us and sebastian's piece is all about that, too, is that occupations are hard. you are occupying afghanistan, for that matter, the british occupying the colonies.

it's in the dna of people to protect their homeland and especially when it becomes a time when women are saying, this is our homeland, you are invading us, you are destroying us. >> yeah, you know, sebastian, nations do have characters of their own, some nations, some people are far more resistant to occupation. we learned that the hardest of ways. in vietnam, we were fighting against a people who were not going to be submissive to the french or the united states. you saw that in afghanistan and now we're learning something about the ukrainians. they are not the type of people who refugee go sit back and be occupied. especially by a country that killed 3, 4 million of them back in the 1930s. >> the war looks very much like the war i saw in bosnia in the early '90s. i think most people would defend

their homeland with the risk of their families, their children, their history, dignity. freedom comes from the mid-evil german for the word "beloved." in other words, there is a close tie between the sense of freedom and digne at the we all want and the people we want and how do we protect them from degradation. >> you know, walter, it fascinating. we feared the russians for years. people would often parrot putin talking points. what's been so fascinating here is how the ukrainians have absolutely destroyed russia in their efforts. one of the most telling instances is that story of the grandmother walking up to the russian soldiers swearing at him, saying, get out of my neighborhood, put these sound flower seeds in your pocket so when are you dead in the soil, at least sunflowers will grow. that story made it from a

village in you vain all the way to one of my child's classes in the united states where all the kids republicans and democrats alike, were just mesmerized by this story and there is one instance of that after another. russia is losing their misinformation war. >> well, one of the things we always try i to study is whether or not the free flow of information which the internet and so many forms of social media do helps democracy and individual freedom or whether tyrants can take it over. the russians have tried very hard with disinformation, control of the media. the great thing right now, it's not working, up until you know this invasion, it was always a question to what extent ukraine had a true strong national identity. we always thought it did. russians and putin would say, no, it's an integral part of

sort of the russian sphere. guess what, he's learned that's wrong. >> so, sebastian, you have obviously spoken about powerful sources for them to defend their homeland. aren't those historical examples of a smaller, more nimble force being successful against a larger bully invader? >> yes, history is full of examples of that i say there are more examples of that than the larger force winds. the costs are disproportionately large for the larger force. that's true in the boxing ring, in mixed martial arts one-on-one. it scales up to armies and insurgencies, in mont neg rocks in the early 1,600s, the otomans outnumbered them 15-to-1, similar to russia going into ukraine. they had artillery.

the monte ne gran fighters attacked the otomans in little three-man groups all night long and enmasse at dawn and sent the rest packing. history is filled with examples like that. one of the things that's critical is the definition of how you see yourself, so, right now, in ukraine, the definition of being ukrainian is to fight russia. look even at a small scale, i looked at street gangs in chicago in the 1960s one in particular the vice lord, the definition of being a vice lord in the mid-'60s in chicago was that you would rush to help another vice lord who was in danger. if you didn't do that, you were not a vice lord. so this definition of who you are, meaning fighting the enemy. once that happens, it's very, very hard to destroy a population like that. >> walter, we've seen the biden administration successfully put

together a coalition especially in the west. it seems that this war is about to move to a new phase, we're seeing, of course, war crimes committed daily, now russians tipping their hand on the possibility of chemical biden administration's part, perhaps leaning in a bit more. what should they be doing in the coming weeks? >> i'll say something controversial, which is it's very hard to have a war against russia like we're doing now or an economic war against russias and also be fighting the chinese. ever since bismarck said you had to be closer to your adversaries than they were to each other and ever since nixon and kissinger did the opening of china to play china off russia, we've had to use that balance. i think it's a bit of a problem that we don't have china aligned with us now, that they seem to

be working with russians, and that's going to hurt when we try to stop sales of russian oil and gas, when we try to impose the sanctions. so i think we have to step back and say, yes, we have problems with china. we have trade problems. they're doing a few things in the south china sea, but it's not the existential threat that russia is. so both with saudi arabia and with china, if i were the biden administration i'd say, okay, let's do a reset to china right now because we're not -- we're in for the long haul. this is two or three years no matter how good insurgencies are. >> richard haass said the same thing earlier today. china has no incentives for teing putin to stand down simply because even if they do, they'll continue getting attacked, rightly, i understand, by republicans and democrats, but a point they keep making on this

show, we aligned with joseph stalin, one of the most evil men of the 20th century, and for frld said i would make an alliance with the devil right now to beat hit ler. i wonder, is not only the biden administration but are republicans on capitol hill willing to say the same thing as we stare down possibly the specter of world war iii? >> well, yeah. and you can talk about the problems we're having with china, but they're in a different league. they're the type of trade problem or economic problem great nations have. and some geostrategic things but is not necessarily in alliance with the devil. we've just made it seem that way. even people in the biden administration say is that politically it's hard to ohm up to to china now because republicans and democrats are trying to demonize them.

we tried that with saudi arabia. but if you're living in a world where oil and energy is the big thing, you have to be realistic in foreign policy. we're very good at being idealistic in foreign policy, and it's important that we keep our ideals in the fore, but we still have to figure out a balance of power and at the moment now, we're going to have to quit getting on a high horse and fighting the saudis and the chinese when the real enemy now for the next couple of years is russia. >> sebastian, would you agree? >> i haven't studied foreign policy to that degree, but it makes to me. >> you're at the renowned new orleans book festival. what are the themes there this week? >> well, the new orleans book festival at tulane, we're launching it right now.

one of the themes, the main theme, is how do we bring our country back together, because in the end, even talk about how we'll be aligned overseas, it doesn't work if we're still divided at home. we've had two great invasions in the past couple years, the invasion of a new virus and the invasion of russia into europe. and that should have united us. as ronald reagan used to say, if we have a great invasion on earth, that would unite the country. last night our friend eddie gloud talked about how do we heal on race. how do we respect thomas jefferson? because we have to heal on the question of race where we understand our history but also respect things. john grisham was interviewed by jenna bush last night, and the question was as a country don't we share certain values. throughout today, our friend jon meacham, david brooks, donna brazile, it's all going to be on

the theme of how do we heal this poison and rifl rifts at home be we won't succeed in taking on china economically, not going to succeed in taking on russia, not going to succeed in gaining a moral leadership of the world unless we heal poison and the divisions at home. >> walter isaacson, that sounds like an incredible lineup, except for that meacham guy. >> oh, yeah. >> not sure how he slimmed in there. >> one of our great volunteers i want to say is bill brzezinski, mika's nephew. >> my will. shout-out to will. >> walter isaacson at the new orleans book festival. thank you so much. sebastian younger, thank you. your article in "vanity fair" is a must read. thanks for being with us today. that does it for thus morning. chris jansing will pick up the coverage right after the break. have a good weekend.

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good morning. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is friday, march 11th. this morning russia is expanding the war zone, spreading misery to new parts of ukraine as conditions inside multiple cities grow more desperate. just a short time ago, president zelenskyy said the war has reached a strategic turning point and the pressure is mounting on the u.s. to reverse its position and work with poland to provide jets for ukraine. meanwhile, the bombs keep falling and ukrainian civilians, particularly the most vulnerable, like this child, are the ones suffering the most. in mariupol, a city gradually being turned to rubble, russian air strikes are now reportedly landing every 30 minutes. the situation there catastrophic. no food, no water, no electricity, freezing temperatures. the mayor says children have begun to d