now. "deadline: white house" starts as we speak. ♪♪ . hi there, everyone. 4:00 in new york. 10:00 p.m. in kyiv. russian forces appear to be more brutal in the attacks. seemingly nothing offlimits. strikes in the center of ukraine's capital. this missile falling on the street and destroying a bus. now calling the scene of an apocalypse movie. initialling to kyiv hoping to apply the pressure that's resulted in devastation and suffering in cities across the country of ukraine. two strangers that fled kyiv describe the escape. >> the road full of mines and stay with children, with -- this

is old people and we see animals, dogs and cats. and it was a miracle. okay. now we are sisters. >> in hard hit mariupol an estimated 400,000 people, human beings, trapped without heat, without food, without water. hundreds managed to escape by car as a way blocked from going into the city. that's due to shelling from russian forces according to ukrainian officials. also this indelible image of war with a split second that illustrates the horrors takes place every day in ukraine. a pregnant woman carried out on march 9th. the woman in the photo has died. as has her unborn child. the country facing invasion and

war and calamity president delen ski rallied the people. today he posted a video himself taking to the streets saying, quote, we will rebuild. president zelenskyy set to continue his efforts to garner adegreesal support for his country and people with an address to joint session of congress in this country slated for wednesday morning, the first such address by a foreign leader since 2019. this morning his government sat down with russian negotiators. ukrainians expressing more optimism than with any previous talks with a member of the ukraine delegation saying he expected quote concrete results in the next days. that sliver of hope for peace comes even as there are sign that is russia is planning on widening and intensifying the

war there. 35 people killed when russian missiles struck a military base 15 miles from poland and no nato forces present at the time at the pentagon saying that u.s. troops at that facility on a training mission left weeks ago. that bid by russia to bring the war right to nato's doorstep comes amid news of a potentially significant development in the global response to the war in ukraine. three u.s. officials tell nbc news that the u.s. reason to believe that russia asked china for military equipment and support but the russians and the chinese deny that any request was made. jake sullivan today met with china's top diplomat in rome and told chuck todd that the administration has a message for china or anyone considering helping russia evade sanctions. >> we have made it clear not just to beijing but every cub in

the world if they think that they can basically bail russia out, they can give russia a work around to the sanctions imposed they should have another thing coming because we'll ensure no one can compensate them for these losses. >> all this taking place against the backdrop of devastatingly urgent need on the ground. massive numbers of civilians in harm's way including in kyiv where an apartment complex struck in the early hours. at least one person was killed and one injured. >> reporter: the attack just after 5:00 in the morning when most residents were sleeping. the incoming artillery round sometimes described as a rocket hit by the front door. there was no military activity here at the time.

no outgoing fire and this can only be described as an attack on civilians right near the heart of kyiv. "i woke for a get right before, maybe i knew something," he says who lives with his mother. heard the round and then the explosion. it blew out the window and doors. if i was near them i would be dead. nina was sleeping. shaken but unhurt said she is happy not to be alone this morning and asked if i have a mother who also happens to be named nina. she said this attack shows why ukrainians need to fight as open russian war with no distinction between civilians is moving into kyiv. >> joining us right now on the streets of kyiv nbc news richard engel. i have been a fan of your

reporting long before working with you. i haven't seen an embrace like that. tell me about the victims there in that strike in that parent building. >> reporter: i'll start with nina. so nina was -- she lives in that apartment building that was struck on the ground floor. she is a widow and lives with her adult son. she was asleep this morning and then suddenly she said it was like they turned the lights on outside and the window came crashing in, the window frame, the doors came crashing in. it all fell on top of her. the entire heavy metal window frame and unhurt. the bedroom, the area covered in broken glass and didn't have a scratch on her. she said because she was sleeping under a heavy blanket and she also thought maybe it had to do with the icons around

the room she does by hand with embroidery. including one of st. nina and gave to me as a me men to. she was incredibly strong, very brave. she was laughing it off sort to speak. she said they'll rebuild. everything will be okay and everyone will come back from the building and have a celebration when the ukrainians win this war and she is going to have a party in her apartment. so an incredible amount of resolve considering what just happened to her life a short while before we met her. that's just in one apartment building. here in the center of kyiv they are worried the advance is getting closer to the city and what they're saying is beware of a russian army that's wounded, russia is on the back foot and the military advance blitzkrieg is going poorly and vladimir

putin they believe in vengeful acts is firing on cities to extract pain and a higher price to the negotiations happening now. >> richard engel, what when we look at the human suffering and the indiscriminate bombing and make the point in the package clearly it was an attack on civilians. what have russians been able to do in mariupol been more difrlt than kyiv? >> so kyiv is a mariupol has about 400,000 and also right on the sea so it is easier to surround. the topography is that you can surround it by several sides. industrial areas that easy to cut off. it is close to the russian

border and close to the russian backed separatist areas. there are a lot of troops inside mariupol so i think the russian strategy for mariupol was instead of going into the city to fight street to street and having to fight the soldiers that are there would be to take advantage of its proximity to the border and starve them out as if it's an ancient hill top castle in europe. kyiv is different. there's a river running through it. a large, sprawling city. many times larger. about 4 million people. depending on whose estimate you use. a lot put it 3.5 million. the number the mayor uses. it would be much more difficult to surround a city like this not pressed up right against the sea and some u.s. military officials that i speak to don't think they

can surround this city completely seal it off let alone to occupy it and take it over and pacify it and think that russia can inflict damage and pain and kill people but not necessarily roll around here in the center of kyiv and go people's houses and make arrests like they have done in smaller cities further down south. >> that would explain why there's migration over the last six days into this center of kyiv. i wonder what you can tell us about the impact on ukraine on president zelenskyy and the people of that russia strike near the border of poland. >> reporter: i'm sorry. you dropped out a little bit. the attack near the polish border? >> right, what is the impact on the realization that nothing is off limits and perhaps as a result of kyiv being more

fortified, what is the read on that attack on the polish border? it's something the international community sent into a tail spin it feels like an attack on the doorstep of a nato country. ukraine is girding for attacks everywhere and seems like that's beyond the area where most strikes have been. what is the impact on that country? what is the reaction in ukraine and kyiv to that strike? >> reporter: so the impression was not that it was an attack on nato's doorstep in order to provoke nato. it may have had that impact but that it was more of an attack on the supply line into this country. since we were talking geography, the south is cut off. to the east is russia. to the north is belarus to the west is eastern europe and that front is open and weapons and

foreign fighters have been able to come in through poland primarily and supply the army with the stinger missiles, the anti-tank missiles including javelins and foreign fighters. they say they have about 20,000 if that figure is to be believed that joined up to the foreign legion and weapons and fighters are coming through that direction and heading from the border and russia had just said that it considers supply lines, weapons coming from the west, from eastern europe, to be legitimate targets so it seemed like it was potentially a message to nato but clearly an attempt to cut off the ukrainian military from the supplies of what have been effective shoulder launched missiles. >> nbc's richard engel live in

kyiv, thank you. please stay safe. >> reporter: thank you. >> our friend igor is back with us today as most of you know by now a form ore adviser to president zelenskyy. he remains with his young family near kyiv. when we last spoke to you and richard on friday there were air sirens going off, there was a sense that russia was getting closer to kee. as richard reports it is better fortified than perhaps anticipated and doesn't mean that kyiv will be spared from tragedy or attacks on civilians. tell me how you're doing today. >> well, we are doing fine. the sound of war is actually changing a lot. we used to have the missile strike once or twice a day and it was loud, scary. but at the end of the day twice a day and that's it.

now we have to live through to artillery in the distance and it does have an affect because there's low bass notes, you know? you don't hear it. you just feel it with your body and keeps nearly 24/7. it is difficult. plus beginning to see the indiscriminate strikes on kyiv itself but you know me. i can't go without a funny story. a strike hit a lingerie shop. a women's undergarments shop in a mall in kyiv and second time that brand of ukrainian women's understood wear was targeted by the russians so one begins to wonder what does putin have against women's underwear. >> sounds like a fetish. >> yeah. it is getting more difficult. there's a good way to know whether kyiv thinks about it. i won't tell you where i am but

seeing a different background that means we left the house where we were at and moved somewhere else in kyiv and the encirclement is complete. we will have the last ones to go geographically. >> igor, you know, it has been in some ways incomprehensible certainly to me and i think americans that 16 days ago urn going about your life, your kids going to school and now you are a country at war. and policy decisions that the west makes hinge on whether or not they would put the world on a path to world war iii. some of the ways i think people understood how brutal and completely life changing ukraine are the images and one was a woman carried out on a stretcher after russians targeted a children and maternity hospital and learned over the weekend she had died and the child she was

pregnant with. i wonder if you can speak to what you understand about the targeting and the suffering and what women and children are going through. >> the best way to describe it is that we actually have 10-year-olds in ukraine and shouldn't happen that are dead. what's more important here russian propaganda was pushing this completely ridiculous and horrific story that the attack on the maternity ward was a ukrainian fake so that those were actresses playing the parts and everything staged and nazis in that maternity ward. you know, we know the truth now and unfortunately this woman and her unborn child passed away. if there's anything good to come out of a tragedy like that i

hope it changes the narrative in the west. tucker still hasn't called. probably hasn't bought plane tickets just yet but another tragic story -- i would like to express condolences to the family of brent renaud who was killed yesterday, a reporter and a fox news correspondent is in the intensive care unit in kyiv after being attacked by the russian forces. hopefully -- after this we won't see more russian propaganda pushed in the west and i hope people realize that dignity is nonpartisan and certain things more important than money and political power. >> look. just did fact you are aware of what tucker is broadcasting an important reminder that the

world is small with the internet and the bizarre associations and the kremlin is certainly associated itself closely with the tucker carlson and the commentary airs in the loop on rt and state media. i want to make sure i understand. the fact that one of their own journalists is right now in the intensive care unit in a hospital in kyiv you want them to report the truth? is that what you're saying? >> exactly what i'm saying. i want to emphasize this point. russia, a thing it uses effectively against the world and the free world especially is information. i have spent many years studying russian disinformation and the theory of disinformation. now because of technology that we have put out there information does have physical, tangible effect on our lives and i think spreading russian

propaganda adisinformation in the free world is especially dangerous given the fact reason to believe that unless ukrainian army can push back on russia and settle the war within ukrainian territory we are dangerous close to global conflict and it should be avoided at all cost. it is 2022. it is not 1941. >> i want to ask you about your president and his address to joint session of congress on thursday. you wandy rodriguez his adviser. what should he say? what do you need him to say to the united states congress? >> i already relayed a message. it is his prerogative to decide on what to say but i think for the western audience, the members of congress, the american people to realize that this is the final battle between

good and evil that determines the future what world we will live in. it is important to realize that there are things more important than partisan politics, more important than fear and corporate greed. i'm trying to convince the western business to leave russia at least temporarily. and look. god forbid it leads to world war iii. do the companies want to support that? we need to unite and solve the crisis because if you study russia and the propaganda ukraine is a temp tear step to a major global conflict against the west and you are the enemy. we are not the enemy to him. putin doesn't recognize us as people. we are just something getting in the way. the real enemy is nato, the united states. and it's better to help us now.

that could avoid the conflict down to kind of to being decisive and face the consequences that will affect the lives of people not only in ukraine but globally. >> when you assess what putin has at his disposal, do you think that his military assets, his dumb bombs, the civilians bombing or the reliance on lies, which do you think is more vital to him? >> it is all about staying in power. it looks that putin lost complete touch with reality. he's out of touch with it and what's happening in ukraine, i'm saying all along this conflict doesn't have an ideology behind it. it is basically an armed robbery on steroids. genocide on steroids.

for putin war is a way to unite russian people to kind of stay in power and control everies a suspect of russian life. having mentioned that, i want to shout out to a brave russian woman who crashed the prime time news on russia's top channel with an anti-war message. >> she held up a sign? >> yeah. she held up a sign and we need those acts of bravery. they need to wake up and make themselves heard because they're going to be victims of this just like we are at the moment and need to stop it. another thing. i usually -- look. i have to give you something positive because today is a difficult day. we have this anecdote making rounds. i couldn't verify it. they are pay tri yachts.

a major tragedy to do with abandoned pets. when people flee they can't always take the dogs and the cats with them so they let them out and starving to death and absolutely horrible. this woman in the northern ukraine she caught a husky. she saw a husky sad and slightly angry running in the fields. she chased it around and caught it and took it to the vet so the vet could treat it and send it off to the shelter. the husky was a wolf. you know? that is a ukrainian woman. catching wolf in the field with the bare hands and said slightly aggressive and sad looking. >> out trying to save the abandoned domestic pets and bringing in a wolf to the yvette. igor, we think about you and

your daughters and family everyday and really grateful for telling us what's happening. i want do give you the last word. >> well look. hopefully this ends soon. we deserve better in the 21st century than a medieval war in the middle of europe. i hope the world will accept it for the future. >> you know we'll check in with you tomorrow. thank you. please stay safe. >> thank you. when we come back after this weekend's strike by russia on a military training base miles from the border with poland, the global community is wondering where this war is heading and if the u.s. and nato are heading to a conflict with russia. the crackdown inside russia led to tens of thousands of russians fleeing their country and many

russians are feeling guilt about what their country is doing in ukraine to ukrainians. "the new york times" spoke with russian exiles in turkey about that and that reporter joins us. later in the program, a western media voice that the kremlin is hearing be loud and clear. tell you more about that when we continue after a quick break. qk ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪

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this is now the third significant strike in western ukraine. certainly appears as if the russians are broadening the target set. we'll continue to flow security

assistance to the ukrainians as fast as we can and as nimbly as we can. they are -- all i can tell you is as we stand here today those shipments are getting into the hands of the ukrainians and looking for ways to make sure that continues. >> that's pentagon press secretary jon kirby reacting to questions about the russian missile time on a base in western ukraine 15 miles from the border with poland saying that the strike had effect on nato's mission to supply arms and other weapons to ukraine but did bring the war psychologically to the doorstep of nato member poland and that base is where american troops were training polish troops weeks ago. russia says the convoys are torgts. joining us is juliet iopi and

former senator claire mccaskill. julia, a million things, but we'll start with president zelenskyy's address to congress on thursday. you knock down shallow analysis of what's going on. in your view what are some of the most important things for him to say on thursday? >> i think probably the most important thing he can say is to get across to the representatives of the american people and hopefully the american people themselves the reason and the importance that americans should continue to feel economic pain at the pump, right, for the sake of ukrainian freedom and a country halfway around the world and most americans don't have a

connection to and probably couldn't find on a map and as gas stations stay high and inflation staying high and americans wary of an involvement in wars abroad after afghanistan and iraq, trying to convince them and the representatives of why this is important for them and why to care and feel discomfort on the behalf of ukrainians. >> igor, a former adviser to president zelenskyy said this is about you. vladimir putin doesn't recognize us as full fledged humans. we're knock nothing to him. this is about you. do you agree with that? >> i agree that it's about the u.s. ultimately. this entire time it has been about the u.s. it is about the ukraine, sure, but the u.s. and his speech declaring war

putin spoke about the u.s. and spoke about ukraine as ast colony, a puppet of the american government and i think victor is right that putin is itching for a fight with the u.s. and will eventually if more is not done to stop vladimir putin wil escalate to a war with the u.s. because it seems like that's what putin wants. unfinished business with the u.s. and wants to have it out with us. >> claire, whatever putin's wider goals, the bombing to rubble and dust of parts of ukraine in the time of social media and thank god for the brave journalists who now at great risk to themselves, first american journalist died over

the weekend and more coverage of that later in the show. the targeting of civilians. the suffering and terror that children are going through there. we heard from the first lady over the weekend. >> like all of us, my heart has ached watching videos of ukraine. sick kids fleeing on makeshift medical trains. the unthinkable bombing of a maternity ward. parents weeping over their children's broken bodies in the streets. the senselessness is staggering. >> that was from this morning, claire. i think of something julia said that this is europe's 9/11 and there is an important role i think for any first lady but especially this one to make sure

that america and the west doesn't look away. >> i don't think there is any risk of the west looking away and i have to gently push back that putin wants a war with the united states. we are talking about a country with a gdp the size of texas. if you combine europe, the west and other democracies that are in the western alliance along with the united states, we are talking about a $40 trillion gdp compared to texas with 1.5. just look at the militaries. russia spends $65 billion on the military. you know what we spend? we spend $800 billion a year on the military. i don't think he is itching for a fight with the united states. i think he thought taking ukraine would be easy because he believed his own wishes and a

close circle of friends that told him what he wanted to hear. i think he is in trouble. i'm not saying -- we have to quit saying how much stronger and more powerful the military is in ukraine. why is he going to china for help? why is their stock market closed for another week? i think putin is really caught in a really difficult position right now and that's when he will be more irrational and not rational to want a war with the united states. that is not rational. biden and the first lady are hurting like all americans watching what's happening and we are on the knife's edge of world war iii which would bring massive casualties not just to the poor ukrainians but all european countries and many, many thousands of americans so this commander in chief has the most difficult job trying to

help ukraine continue to weaken putin and without getting into a full-blown conflict that has dire consequences for the civilized world. >> igor is not here but i think the point is it's about the united states and not sending troops tori ri but that -- >> right. >> it is about taunting america's support of nato and reporting in "the new york times" to get your feedback on. i believe this is under david sanger and schmidt that there's a consensus that the military faltered in the military plan. in private officials express concern that putin might seek to take moldova that never joined nato and ared particularly

vulnerable. and apprehension about georgia fighting a war with russia in 2008 that seems like a test run. and there's a possibility that putin angered by the slowness of ukraine may reach for other weapons. chemical, lie logical, nuclear and cyber. julia, where do your sources put that in terms of likelihood? >> from the people i have spoken to they seem to be worried about biological and chemical weapons and given the noise that russia is making at the u.n. especially and the state media about how ukraine is about to use chemical and biological weapons, it seems like they're preparing the ground for attacking ukrainians with these kind of weapons and then framing it as a false flag

attack. russia carried water for bashir al assad when he used nerve agents on his own people outside of damascus and russia and the russian media said, oh, that was a false flag attack by the syrian opposition to drag america into the war on its side and i worry as do many sources that that's what russia's preparing to do here. you know? filling the air waves with false reports that ukraine is about to use the weapons and then using them on ukrainians saying, see? we told you they were about to use them. it was ukrainians gassing their own people. >> a nightmare scenario. claire, i wonder what as someone that sat in that chamber what you would want the hear. for the people who are still making appearances on fox news

where they're providing enough content for putin himself to air to his population to bolster support for the indiscriminate bombing on civilians in ukraine what would you want them to hear from zelenskyy thursday morning? >> i think zelenskyy not only needs to emotionally capture how important our support is and how he's depending on our military to get the munitions to them very, very quickly. russia has to be struggling with a stockpile now and ukraine needs the billions of dollar that is we have passed in military support for their efforts, particularly those specific weapons programs to take out the kind of missiles that are indiscriminate and tanks bombing the civilian

targets. i think he also needs to warn america about allowing putin to use them for his propaganda. i particularly hope he mentions the false flag about biological weapons in ukraine. zoo that all the republicans hear that tucker carlson and other are really, really close to treason in terms of what they say and parrotting what is putin's dream that he could have american media spreading his propaganda in the middle of his murderous assault on innocent children and civilians in ukraine. >> julia and claire stick around. two ukrainian children who seemed shy nervously enter a new school. near naples, italy. new classmates met with a huge welcome.

students waving yellow and blue flags and helping them through the building. two of 2.8 million people that fled the country of ukraine since the war began. more than 1 million estimated to be among them. but she can handle pickup, even when her bladder makes a little drop-off. because candice has poise, poise under pressure and poise in her pants. it takes poise. ♪ ♪ introducing the all-electric chevy silverado rst. the only ev truck that combines: 4-wheel steer a multi-flex midgate and up to a 400-mile range on a full charge and the only way to reserve it is at chevy.com. find your future. find new roads.

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denounced russia's attack on ukraine. most notingly many of them have been inside russia human rights group says russia arrested nearly 15,000 protesters there. they have been arrested for signs saying as little as the phrase two words or in some cases even holding up a blank piece of paper. the crackdown is so broad there's a video shot by an activist nonprofit organization posted online showing authorities detain a woman about to speak out in support of russia actions.

>> thousands of russians began to flee the country. "the new york times" chronicled some of the stories. one 30-year-old russian that fled to turkey after being arrested tells "new york times," quote, it was like i was seeing the soviet union. i was thinking that the people who left the soviet union in the 1920s probably made a better decision than those that stayed and ended up in the camps. let's bring in a correspondent on that story moscow bureau chief anton. did you leave and is this where you are reporting on russia for now? >> we did unfortunately have to leave. "the times" were totally committed to covering russia and we hope to be back very soon but as you know putin signed a law recently that punishes so-called

false news about the war with as much as 15 years in prison and false news in their definition can be as simple as referring to the war as a war as opposed to a special military operation which is what the kremlin calls it so yes. we -- obviously the security of the staff is most important thing and we have temporarily pulled our reporters out of russia. >> you wrote one of the most insightful stories on the front page of "new york times," at least here. i'm not sure where on the international version but it was presidents weekend here and about putin's stability and questioned his state of mind in the earliest days of this war. and i wonder if you can tell me how that may influence the russian people on the street. do they think he's acting of

sound mind? >> that's a great question because i think a lot of people in russia if they didn't agree with most of what putin did kind of assumed he was more or less rational and pursuing sort of his agenda but the end of the day not do anything as crazy as attack ukraine. you know? even as the u.s. was warning of an invasion in recent months very, very few people in russia even the experts believed it. so given that shift and given what we see now putin is capable of there are, there are certainly people in russia that are horrified by what's going on. >> i want to understand and make sure we don't oversimplify the idea of state media and the grip on information flow. here people watch whatever they

want and doesn't keep 40% of the people to understand that the election wasn't stolen. what is the real access to real information to the truth about ukraine and can they get the pictures? can they find out what's happening? give me equation is how much they can't see it and how much they believe putin's version. >> yeah. so television is obviously still the most powerful medium in terms of getting the news at least still in russian. television is completely state controlled. especially older generations relying on the tv for new us they're getting the propaganda picture of ukraine that's the opposite of what the viewers in the u.s. are seeing. but the internet remains openly accessible. russia is not china.

russia doesn't have a great firewall keeping outside information out. so you can still -- russia has during the war actually gone to new lengths to block information online and in particular incredibly popular in russia, including for news and activism. and they've blocked a number of independent news websites, but things like telegram, the social messaging app, those are still accessible, and so for people who are actually interested and, you know, who think critically, they can get the real story of what's going on, and there is a lot of content available in the russian language. but i should add, though, things have changed, really changed in the last couple weeks. a ton of russian language media outlets have been shut down in russia, so it's become much harder for people to get that information. >> and we want to ask you on the other side of the break where they have gone.

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to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. people taking ingrezza can stay on their current dose of most mental health meds. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to any of its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including sleepiness. don't drive, operate heavy machinery, or do other dangerous activities until you know how ingrezza affects you. other serious side effects include potential heart rhythm problems and abnormal movements. it's nice people focus more on me. ask your doctor about ingrezza, #1 prescribed for td. learn how you could pay as little as zero dollars at ingrezza.com. anton reporting today about russians in exile. explain. >> so, here in istanbul, there are thousands of russians who have arrived, basically fleeing their country, fearing that borders will close, that there could be conscription, that don't see a future for

themselves. it's really remarkable. so many journalists, activists, tech workers, so many people are leaving right now. >> julia, i have a question for you if -- yeah, julia, the much vaunted ability of russia in cybersecurity. where is that? why have we seen nothing on the cyber front when all of us have been expecting it since this conflict began? >> i think that's a really good question, and we don't really know why. they might be holding that option in reserve, fearing that if they do use it, there will be even more sanctions from the u.s. and europe. or they can't get things together. i mean, we've seen that the russian army is in disarray, that things aren't going according to plan, as much as the kremlin says it is.

so, we don't really know, and just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't. >> anton, your thoughts on that? i saw president zelenskyy today actually calling on u.s. tech companies to be tougher, to take all of their systems and technology out of russia. >> yeah. i mean, so much is happening already in terms of companies pulling out. you know, again, i mean, here in istanbul, something you notice is the fact that mastercard and visa have stopped -- are suspending service in russia, which means that russians who leave the country can no longer access their bank accounts back home. >> that's crazy. anton, we wanted to talk to you for a while. we're glad you're safe. thank you for sharing some of your reporting. julia, claire, thank you for spending so much time with us this hour. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a very short break. deadline white house" starts after a veryho srt break. ♪ ♪ introducing the all-electric chevy silverado rst. the only ev truck that combines: 4-wheel steer

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♪♪ what is happening right now is absolutely terrifying and absolutely inexplicably scary. you know, like, we don't have any other country. we don't have any other homes. we don't have any other cities. this is where we belong. this is what we are protecting. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york as determined and resilient ukrainians were met with intensifying attacks from russian forces today and over the weekend, in their war in ukraine, new reporting reveals president joe biden is considering taking a trip to europe in the coming weeks. u.s. official telling nbc news that brussels could be a possible location, although no details have been confirmed by

the white house. president biden's trip would be designed to assure our u.s. allies in the region, who this weekend saw russian strikes come dangerously close to nato territory. yesterday, russian missiles hit a ukrainian military base located just 15 miles from the border with poland. 35 people were killed, and more than 100 were injured. the attack raises questions about how much further putin's strikes will go and whether attacks on nato countries are part of his ambitions. the russians have stepped up their attacks all throughout the country. ukraine's capital city of kyiv has been hit with heavy shelling. one missile earlier this morning struck a residential apartment building seven miles from the city center. at least one person died in that attack. several were more injured, according to ukrainian officials. here's sky news's alex crawford from the site of that attack. >> we've spoken to some of the residents inside, one of whom

said he had to carry his 84-year-old mother out who had been cut from -- you can see what it's done to the building. imagine if you're inside that. still sleeping. as most people would have been at 5:00 this morning. we've seen a number of the residents who once lived inside this block going inside with fire people, trying to gather up whatever they can, the few possessions that might still be intact. >> and in the city of mariupol, which has been encircled by russian forces for weeks now and has been the site of some brutal, brutal attacks, residents are still struggling without water, without heat and without food. there was one glimmer of home today. hundreds of people were able to escape through a humanitarian corridor, but thousands still remain trapped as the red cross sounds the alarm, warning of a worst case scenario for those who cannot escape. meanwhile, a fourth round of talks between russia and ukraine were put on a technical pause

earlier and are expected to resume tomorrow. on wednesday, ukrainian president zelenskyy will speak virtually to members of the u.s. congress about the appearance. speaker pelosi called it a privilege for us to hear from this champion of democracy. that is where we start this hour. cal perry joins us now from lviv, ukraine. cal perry, earlier in the show, igor nobikov, a former advisor to president zelenskyy, who is somewhere near kyiv, said the sounds of war have changed, that us sounds different. the strikes, the constant nature of them, getting closer to kyiv. and he also talked about gray-haired 10-year-olds. it sounded like something you might also be witnessing there in lviv. >> reporter: yeah. i think this is a nation that is now war weary. i think you have people who are engaging in things they never dreamed they would engage in. that's true on the front lines. that's true where i am in the sort of far west of the country and as we talk about these cities, we're talking about them

because they're emblematic of what's happening around the country. mariupol, we now know at least 2,200 civilians there have been killed. we expect that number to be far higher. this is a city now known for the first visuals of a mass grave in this conflict. you talked about the 150 or so cars that got out. it's been ten days since any international aid has gotten into that city. no food, no water. we know from the president that at least one child there died of dehydration. to your point, the gray hairs are going to be amongst the children who saw that. to kharkiv, you have a situation where it's starting to resemble what we saw in places like aleppo and grozny where the structure was bombed to rubble and the rubble has been bombed and shelled and the people are unable to go aboveground at all. you have fierce fighting that has left the bodies of russian soldiers on the streets and those bodies apparently remain. it's an indication about how bad and how the street fighting there is literally street by

street, house to house. in kyiv, where our colleague richard engel remains, you have these scenes of indiscriminate shelling of high-rise apartment buildings and a reminder, in these cities are hundreds of thousands of civilians, people who either chose to stay or people who could not leave and you have there in kyiv, the digging in, entrenching of these suburban areas, of these suburbs where we expect the tanks to slowly advance on those positions. to where i am now, where you have hundreds of thousands of refugees here in lviv, we had two mornings ago our first morning where you could hear distant explosions. eight rockets. that's an extraordinary number. 30 in total, they think, were fired at this airfield. as you said, it is 15 miles from the polish border, so there's a point to this targeting, beyond just its military importance, and we do know its military importance. this is a base where nato trained ukrainian forces and did so openly. this is a place that nbc news visited in 2019 and filmed u.s. soldiers training ukrainians troops so there was a point to

that strike but it also killed at least 35 people and wounded another 130 more and brings up the question, of course, of the targeting on nato convoys. it is something that has not been advertised by nato nations, unlike the troop movements into poland, but we know it's happening. we know these resupplies are coming through the western part of the country, and we know the russian government has said they'll target it. all a long way of answering your original question, which is everybody now in this country is touch bid the war. we spent time at a little factory where they were making these big metal barriers and they're taking them to the north because there's concern here growing that there could be a secondary invasion from belarus. true or not, that is what's being talked about and we're hearing it from the president's office. and so, you have civilians being soldiers and soldiers who are dying and as we get into day 18 or 19 of it, they are still strangling these cities and the aerial campaign is getting worse. >> i'm struck by the president's

movements over the weekend, seen walking around in kyiv, going to a hospital, giving that country's version of it looked like purple hearts, medals to soldiers injured in the fighting. i wonder if you could talk about -- you've done so much incredible reporting about civilians buying weapons and taking up arms but talk about this military. ambassador bill taylor described them as the best trained and most experienced military in europe. >> reporter: so, and they have leadership now that we've seen emerging, not just president zelenskyy, but we're seeing real battlefield leadership there from his commanders whom are a part of these videos, and i don't think it can be understated, these videos and the leadership we're seeing from president zelenskyy. the way this war is being presented to the ukrainian people is with a great deal of thought, a great deal of planning and strategy. i watched the morning programs here, and for, you know, before the war started, they were like

our morning programs in the u.s., and now they are war programming. and so much of that is this character of president zelenskyy, who looks the part. good-looking guy. he's wearing those green camos. he's in all of the right photo opportunities. he's in the trenches with the soldiers drinking coffee. he's in his old office filming it himself, saying it hasn't been destroyed. he's at the hospitals visiting with frontline troops. and i know we've talked about this a lot but it's worth repeating. he's hit on this idea that ukraine is fighting for its own freedom and the world's freedom, and that the russians don't know what they're fighting for. the other thing that happened over the weekend that's really interesting. the ukrainian defense ministry started putting out what they say are wiretaps of phone calls from russian frontline soldiers their homes and the phone calls are of russian soldiers looting stores, stealing coats, stealing appliances, bragging about it and then bragging about the killing of civilians. it is its own form of propaganda. the ukrainian government is involved in its own form of propaganda. but it is incredibly effective, and people are looking to zelenskyy, and they're looking

to his location as well. will he stay in kyiv? how long will he stay? will he leave? he's said he's going to stay, and i think that is what is driving the war effort. >> he's going to address congress this week, and i wonder what your sense is of what, you know, we know what the fights are over. they're over the patrolling of the air space, the no-fly zone. they're over that transfer of mig jets through u.s. -- polish jets through the u.s., but what will he -- he always seems to be able to expand the conversation, to make it bigger. what is your expectation for what he will say to congress? >> reporter: i think what's creeping into his world now are the negotiations. for the first time ever, i think these negotiations are taking on a new meaning because kyiv is being encircled. it's slowly being strangled and they're going to start indiscriminately shelling that city. and there are people here who are starting to talk about the need for a deal, talk about a

cessation of violence. the problem with that is, if you stopped the violence right now, the problem for president zelenskyy is going to be, he's lost most of those black sea cities. he's lost that land bridge that everybody worried about. russia now controls those ports. they control the maritime activity in the black sea. they control the northern part of the country. they're just outside of the capital. they're bombing sites here in the west. so, i think he's going to start staving off calls for some kind of cessation of violence out of fear that this is where the lines will be drawn, that this is where vladimir putin was intending to take and now he's taken that. we're going to hear about the no-fly zone. we're going to hear about the need for more aid, more military support. we're going to hear him say that nato is going to find itself under attack, that one of these rockets will land in nato territory. he's been sounding those bells, playing those nets since the beginning of the conflict. the thing i don't think people expect are the demands on behalf not just of people outside but people inside this country who are watching the newly minted gray-haired children, who are

watching people die in their front yards, there's going to be discussion about at what point do you start to talk about the guns falling silent? i don't think he'll be ready for that. >> cal, there's one more thing i want to ask you about, and i do this with some trepidation. tragically, the first american journalist lost his life over the weekend. today on the air, fox news announced that one of their journalists in the country was injured. and we have some reporting that he's in a hospital near kyiv. how does that -- how are you doing? >> reporter: we're fine. i'm in a hotel with power and water and heat and they serve breakfast here in the morning, so i'm feeling very blessed. our colleague, my colleague, your colleague, richard engel, i bet he's sleeping somewhere that is at least sandbagged or in a basement, and he's not telling people where he is for a reason. we are blessed to be in lviv. the conditions here are good. the fear here that nobody ever expected and this is what

refugees deal with every day, when those air sirens go off now, they go off for a reason. we had air strikes sort of nearby. the other thing that i did not expect were these nuclear sites. the power's off again at chernobyl. we don't really know what is going on there. we don't really know what's happening at the other power plant. we know the russians are using it as a base to house 500 soldiers. we know the staff at chernobyl has been working for nine days straight without a break. it was that that i did not expect to sort of have to deal with, and for the refugees who fled, and we're talking about 2.5 million people have already fled this country, double that number for internally displaced people. so many of them are ending up in lviv. the mayor of krakow said he's bursting at the seams, that the population there has raised 15%. do we ever think the refugees that made it to krakow are going to be worried about some kind of nuclear issue? i didn't think that would happen. that was unexpected. >> nbc's cal perry, you do more than just about anyone else to help us understand what's

happening, what the ukrainian people are going through. thank you very much. we're going to look for some of that morning tv, ukraine's version of the "today" show. we'll look for some of that this week for our conversations. thank you very much, my friend. >> i'll bring it. >> pentagon prsz secretary john kirby is here. i watched your briefing today. when i learned that you would be joining us on this program, and you gave the most impassioned response to repeated questions about that strike on the nato facility near the polish border, and your point was so important. let's not lose the forest through the trees and go down this rabbit hole of putin's targeting and forget that he is slaughtering innocent men, women, and children. tell me how you see this war today. >> i think that's where the focus has got to be, and just to your last conversation with your reporter there, that gets right at that, doesn't it? i mean, we cannot forget the lives and the livelihoods that have been forever changed by

this unprovoked aggression by mr. putin and the kremlin. all of this was avoidable. he had diplomatic options available to him before the 24th of february and chose to go headlong into combat and now look, 2.5-plus million people are now refugees, flung from their homes. we don't know how many hundreds and thousands have been killed or wounded as a result of this. and that's really got to stay the focus. i think we all need to remember the immense suffering that's going on inside and outside ukraine right now, and i, you know, as i said at the podium, while the targeting can be an interesting conversation on any given day, and yes, i recognize that this training facility was just over the border with poland, we really need to remember the grand scope here of what mr. putin is doing to the people of ukraine. >> to that end, ambassador bill taylor, former ambassador to ukraine, made a comment that it doesn't get enough attention in our media, but i'm sure is not news to you, that the ukrainian

military is the most skilled and the best practiced military in all of europe, because they've been at war in the donbas for at least seven, eight years. what is your assessment of how they have sort of duped putin in terms of their effectiveness, their nimbleness, their ability to seemingly do more with less. >> yeah, i would agree that they are one of the most skilled militaries in europe, and it's not just because they have been literally in a hot war in the donbas now for going on eight years, and i agree, ambassador taylor's right about that, but because they have also received over the course of those eight years a lot of training from western nations, including the united states. we recently had trainers there just until a few weeks ago, trying to improve their competency and their capabilities in the field and they're showing that in spades right now. the russians, we know, did not anticipate the level of resistance that they are getting from the ukrainians, and quite frankly, the creativity with which the ukrainians are defending their country and their fellow citizens, i mean,

they are overmatched in terms of sheer numbers. aircraft, tanks, ground troops, the ukrainians don't have the numbers, but yet what they're doing with what they have is truly incredible, and they're being creative. they're being nimble, as you said. they're being agile and flexible. they are defending where they need to defend and being where they need to be when they need to be there and that's making all the difference. >> we talk a lot about what we can't do to help them. i always like to give you a second because i think people want to know what we are doing and then where sort of the room to plus up between what they want and what we're still willing to do in terms of weapons systems and other -- you don't have to be super specific. i don't have any degrees in weaponry, we tell me what they're asking for that we can say yes to. >> yeah, so, look, we're talking to our ukrainian counterparts literally almost every day, and it's not just us. 14 other nations are doing that as well. at all different levels. staff levels all the way up to secretary austin and the

chairman of the joint chiefs, general milley, having conversations with their counterparts so we understand what they need and when they need it. and we are working overtime to get that material to them. over just the course of the last weekend, nicole, we continued to ship weapons and systems to them that we know that are getting into their hands, and now the president just approved another $200 million so we're putting pen to paper here at the pentagon, figuring out what's going on to be on that list and getting it to them as fast as we can. we are also working with allies and partners to do two things. one, help coordinate their shipments so that we can get them all sort of consolidated together and getting them to various ground routes into ukraine but number two, to work with those same allies and partners on other capabilities, other systems that maybe aren't getting into ukraine right now that maybe should. for instance, some maybe air defense systems that we don't have in our inventory but we know the ukrainians have or need or are trained on. so, we're working on all that stuff realtime.

>> there's been some reporting over the weekend on two fronts that i just wanted to give you a chance to contextualize for our viewers. one, great reporting in the "times" about how elusive it is to any of us, what the end game is. we had such -- it seemed impeccable intelligence about what putin was planning until the moment he went in. do we have a sense of how putin wants this to end? >> the best sense we have is from vladimir putin himself and his own public comments, not recognizing ukraine as an independent state, not recognizing their sovereignty, claiming they were always part of russia, talking about this greater russia that he wants to have, and so when you look at what he has said and now look at what he's doing and where he's doing it, really trying to encircle kyiv, it's very clear to us that he has every design on toppling the government in ukraine, installing his own, and basically occupying the country and removing them as an independent nation state. now, that doesn't have to be the outcome, and clearly, the

ukrainians get a vote here, and they're working hard to prevent that. we like to see that there are talks going on. i know they've been suspended until tomorrow, but it's good to see that there is some sort of negotiations between the ukrainians and russians going on. we hope that leads to a negotiated peaceful settlement that, again, preserves ukrainian -- the ukrainian sovereignty and their territorial integrity. that, of course, remains to be seen, but again, i think as we look at what mr. putin has said publicly, it does seem that from a military perspective, he is trying to enforce those outcomes. >> nbc news has reported, and i know you fielded questions about this at your briefing, but it's reported that russia is seeking military aid from china. what can you tell us about that? >> yeah, i don't have anything more specific to add on that. i mean, i've seen all that reporting. i think -- and you know, jake sullivan was, of course, speaking to his chinese counterpart today, as a matter of fact, in rome. i can't add more color to these reports about chinese aid to the

russians, but what we have seen is at the very surface, anyway, china has provided tacit approval for what mr. putin is doing. they refuse to engage in sanctions and are calling the sanctions that other nations including the united states are putting in place unlawful. they say they want to help broker an agreement but they've done nothing. they've done nothing to do that and then of course, they have blamed the united states and they've blamed ukraine for the actual violence that's being visited upon those citizens there. it's quite stunning that china has done very, very little to step in and try to stop this conflict or even to try to mitigate it. so again, as for support, you know, we don't know. but it's clear that china is not standing with the rest of the world in standing up and against mr. putin. >> pentagon press secretary john kirby, who's very busy these days, we appreciate you taking time to spend with us. thank you. >> yes, ma'am. when we come back, much more as we've been discussing with

john kirby, that elusive search for an end to this horrific war in ukraine and as the pressure rises on the united states and nato to send additional military aid to ukraine. plus, stunning new reporting from "mother jones" on how the kremlin is actively pushing russian state media to prominently feature and showcase a certain fox news host in their campaign to spread disinformation about the war. and later, a heartbreaking look inside a ukrainian town devastated by russia's indiscriminate bombing campaign. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. it's 5:00 a.m., and i feel like i can do anything. we've got apples and cabbage. 7,000 dahlias, vegetables, and brisket for dinner.

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today marks the 19th day of war in ukraine and answers about when it could end and what vladimir putin's ultimate goal is remain elusive. as we were just discussing with pentagon press secretary john kirby, that is the focus of some new reporting in "the new york times," which explores what could still lie ahead for ukraine. in that piece, quote, the russian attacks in western ukraine over the past two days underscore putin's continued determination to control the entire country. starting with kyiv. it remains unclear how he would find the forces to occupy it, which could require a bloody, years-long guerilla war. all the while, the u.s. and our allies have been working to support ukraine as much as possible, but without putting troops on the ground there or enforcing a no-fly zone, which experts believe would be the beginning of the next cold war. congressman adam kinzinger was on "morning joe" earlier today on how he would approach where this goes next. >> i just worry, and i believe that we're going to end up in a point where we have to basically

go toe-to-toe to some version with russia anyway. russia is the one -- let's be clear. they're the ones escalating this fight. it's not the united states. i know we're paralyzed with fear that anything we do will be provocative and escalatory. it's russia that's doing that. the thing we can do that would actually do the most stuff right now would be to quit saying what we will not do. okay? if you have no intention of putting troops on the ground in ukraine, fine. you don't have to say it every ten minutes, because all that does is give vladimir putin a target he can walk up to. >> joining us now, retired four-star general barry mccaffrey, former member of the national security council, now first of all for us msnbc military analyst. with us onset, bobby is here, bloomberg opinion columnist covering foreign affairs. general mccaffrey, your reaction to congressman kinzinger. >> well, i think president biden rightfully seems extremely cautious in what he's doing.

the best thing he's happened so far is he's brought to be the nato, secretary blinken, secretary austin, these are allies. the arms and humanitarian aid that's going to ukraine are delivered by 14 nations plus the u.s., so nothing's been unilateral. we've also built up a convincing deterrent force forward deployed in nato, which probably needs to be reinforced with a lot of u.s. air power. on the ground in ukraine, it's a horrific scene. it's going to get worse. putin is angry. he sacked seven of his generals, apparently, in moscow. has them under house arrest. he's lost three of them, killed in action fighting in kyiv. he's in a real strategic disaster. what's he going to do? he's going to double down and destroy the city of kyiv. he's going to get the political capital.

i don't think he can necessarily pull that off. the ukrainians are so tough, so determined in city fighting, it will be their advantage. >> i want to share with both of you something that admiral stavridis said on this program. he said they're targeting innocents and kidnapping mayors. do you agree with that analysis, general mccaffrey? >> no question that they're completely outside the bounds of international norms on warfare. not even close to it. by the way, this is his fifth invasion. the other four, he did the same kinds of things in aleppo and grozny, so this is nothing new. the chairman of the -- their jcs equivalent was in syria as a younger senior officer. that's where he learned his

business. so it's appalling what they're doing. this is back to the days of stalin, and it's going to get worse. and it's not just the big cities either. we can't forget that these smaller urban areas are being hammered all over ukraine. those cruise missiles they fired at the ukrainian military base near poland had 700-pound war heads. these are massive strikes that will indiscriminately hamper not just infrastructure but kill civilians. >> it's a horrific scene unfolding. i think in the earliest days, someone said this is the first war that's been waged really in a time of universal social media access, that moscow bureau chief for the "times" who's now in istanbul said even inside russia, there's still mostly access to the internet for people that want it. i wonder your thoughts on where things stand today. >> certainly from europe's point

of view, this is the first war of that nature. for those of us who have been covering the middle east now, we've seen other wars that have played out on our small screens. and on social media. what we've noticed with those other wars is that over time, there's a desensitization that takes place. it's human nature. right now, in the west, we are all incredibly moved by images of bravery, shattered by images of children being hurt and killed. the big question is, will we still feel that way a week from now, two weeks from now, a month from now? because we know that the russian military, even with all the damage that's being inflicted upon us, has the capacity, because of the nature of their leadership, to continue fighting for a very long time. will we still feel this powerfully? and then that has an impact on what our political leaders do. right now, all of this energy that we feel is translated

through people like representatives and congressmen and senators. to the leadership of this country, to the leadership of europe, and it forces them to do what we like to think are the right things. but if we take our eyes off the ball, a month from now, they will feel less pressure to do so. and then that risks ukraine finding itself without the friends that it has now. that's what i worry about. that's what we saw happen all over -- in other conflicts exactly like this. that's what we saw when the syrian resistance to bashar al assad lost the narrative dominance that they had early on. we stopped paying attention to them. bashar assad quietly and then not so quietly with russian help flattened their cities, flattened their populations. >> used chemical weapons. >> and used chemical weapons, used barrel bombs, used torture on a scale we have not seen

before. these are all from the -- from the songbook of the russian military. we saw that happen in grozny. we saw that happen inside russia, which chechnya effectively is. so if these folks are willing to do that to their own people, i don't see a reason to be optimistic they will treat the ukrainians any better. >> what do you both think we should make of this reporting on russia turning to china for assistance? general mccaffrey, you first. >> well, it's a sign of putin's desperation. indeed, humiliation. i can't imagine the chinese would even dream of putting one soldier on the ground in ukraine. that's never going to happen. and the russians haven't lost enough equipment to need replacement p-80 tanks or other systems. so i don't know what he's up to.

notice he's also recruiting in syria for foreign fighters, practiced in urban warfare, sounds like nonsense also. you've got 60% of his ground combat power inside ukraine, half the air force. he's in over his head already. his logistics system has broken down. it looks like, at the operational level of war, his commanding control has broken down. they're not fighting very well and they look indisciplined and hungry and looting things, so this is a mess. i don't see how he backs out of that. at some point, one can only hope that his own military leadership approaches him and says, you're deepening the disaster for russia. he's had to arrest 15,000 of his own citizens, brave people, incredible to stand up to russian police, but this is a downward slide. will the europeans in particular

finally crack and say, we can't tolerate this, we're going to use air power and strike their ground elements? that's the next step. >> do you think we get there? >> the europeans are very reluctant to do that now. i think we would have to have calamity on a much, much larger scale and heaven forbid that should happen before the europeans feel like they will enter the conflict themselves, which effectively they would have to do. it's very interesting, general mccaffrey mentions the syrian recruitment process, that the russians seem to be doing. that's really smacks of desperation. because the syrian fighters weren't particularly effective in syria. >> right. >> and the idea that you would pull them out of a war zone and -- that they're familiar with and send them to a cold, eastern european country where they stick out like a sore thumb, where they don't speak the language, are not familiar with the terrain, that, you know, the second most powerful standing army in the world

should not need to recruit mercenaries like that. but there's one possible reason why they're doing that, which is that morale in the russian army is very, very low, especially there's a strong cultural element. don't forget, the russian and the ukrainians are fraternal cousins, essentially. you know, even in putin's own messaging, he refers to them. >> our brothers and sisters. >> exactly. and you're sending your soldiers to kill your brothers and sisters. you're telling them, these are your brothers and sisters, now go kill them. there's a very strong resistance and that's why we've seen so many russians hand off their weapons, walk away from the conflict, refuse to deploy in forward places. part of the reason why the russians want to bring in the syrians is that the syrians are not burdened with this kind of sentiment, these kind of considerations. especially when you go into urban conflict, you know, street by street. then these emotions play a very strong role. and if you can send in soldiers who are not governed by

emotions, who are just, shall we say, killing machines, then you think you might get an advantage. but even then, it reflects very poorly on the russian army that they need to find mercenaries from places like syria. >> and i think we can all guess that that story is not really breaking through on television anywhere. >> no. >> general mccaffrey, thank you very much for spending time with us today. always good to hear from you. thank you. when we come back, how the kremlin is pushing russian state media to air tucker carlson, his monologues and whatnot in its coverage of the war in ukraine. that new reporting from "mother jones." ukraine that new reporting from "mother jones. here's candice... who works from home, and then works from home. but she can handle pickup, even when her bladder makes a little drop-off. because candice has poise, poise under pressure and poise in her pants. it takes poise. thanks to realtor.com's home alerts we were able to see the newest homes on the market,

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whether or not tucker carlson truly, honestly, completely understands what he is doing, willfully spreading pro-russian propaganda as putin slaughters innocents in ukraine, is at this point immaterial. fact of the matter is, beyond dispute, russia thinks he's spreading pro-russian propaganda as they slaughter innocents in ukraine. in fact, there's reason to believe the kremlin sees carlson's commentary as essential in their wartime propaganda strategy. in a new report, still unconfirmed by nbc news, "mother jones" saw a contributor to a

national russian media outlet in revealing this. quote, on march 3rd, as russian military forces bombed ukrainian cities as partover putin's illegal invasion, the kremlin sent out talking points with a request. use more tucker carlson. it is essential to use as much as possible, fragments of broadcast of the popular fox news host, tucker carlson, who sharply criticizes the actions of the united states and nato. their negative role in unleashing the conflict in ukraine and the defiantly provocative behavior from the leadership of the western countries and nato towards the russian federation and toward putin personally. advises the 12-page document written in russian, of course. it sums up carlson's position this way. quote, russia is only protecting its interest and security. the memo includes a quote from tucker carlson that goes like this, and how would the u.s. behave if such a situation

developed in neighboring mexico or canada in end quote. "mother jones" also reports that fox news and tucker carlson did not respond to requests for comment in english or russian. of course they didn't. joining our conversation, pete strzok, former fbi counterintelligence agent, bobby ghosh is still here. that which is not surprising, pete strzok, is still shocking, and we've watched this, john carl came on our air last week after a rather alarming monologue from tucker carlson where he parroted the russian disinformation about biological weapons labs in ukraine hours after the heads of the cia, the dia had delivered sworn testimony to congress that none of that was true. and now we see sort of how putin is using it, which we've only theorized before. what's your reaction? >> well, i think it's an extraordinary document, and i think it is surprising in what

it contains but how closely the goals that they lay out are parroted by the things that you hear coming out of tucker carlson in particular. i think it's important to note, you know, we frequently talk about russian active measures, about russian disinformation in terms of their impact on the united states, in terms of the way they seek to manipulate u.s. opinion, but i don't think that's what you're seeing right here. what i think you're seeing on the part of the kremlin and putin specifically is the primary goal of putin right now, and that's to maintain power in russia and to maintain support of the war in ukraine, so don't think of these comments that they're pulling out of tucker as being designed to send back into the homes of american televisions. think of this as a message that vladimir putin is trying to convey to all of those russian families, the families that you pointed out in the earlier segment are starting to have returning war dead. the government that vladimir putin is trying to control, where there's some reporting that multiple fsb officers have been arrested or placed under house arrest and as putin

struggles to try and maintain power, as putin struggles to try and maintain russian support for the war in ukraine, information like this is absolutely essential to convey to the russian people because it's not some russian mouthpiece. you've got this western american voice who is saying exactly what they also hear vladimir putin saying, so don't discount what the true audience of this information is. >> yeah, i think that is exactly right. and i actually think, and i have heard from two folks close to the fox news inner workings, that while the trump propaganda was disgusting, did grave damage to this country, contributed to the deadly insurrection of january 6th, from fox news's perspective, it was commercial. it led to ratings booms. the putin play is not commercial, literally or figuratively. i mean, literally, russia is not commercial at this point. and figuratively, war in russia

that could draw in the u.s. through our nato alliance is not something that the trump base supports. so my question for you, pete strzok, is why? >> i can't explain it. because i think what you do see, there's increasing -- certainly within the republican party, resolve around the idea that what the -- the war that putin is waging in the ukraine, the invasion of ukraine, the indiscriminate slaughter of women and children, you see broad bipartisan sort of coming together behind this idea that that is wrong, that as the united states, we need to oppose that, and you have this one strange outlier, well, two if you look at donald trump, who still can't bring himself to say that putin is wrong for doing this. but you have this odd outlier. and i agree, i made a joke earlier about, you know, you don't have to be an agent to be useful idiot, but i think a lot of people have made a very good point that tucker carlson is not an idiot. i cannot believe he doesn't understand what he is doing. and i cannot believe that at

fox, at senior leadership within the murdoch family or certainly in tucker carlson's mind, i don't see how he can not understand the things that he is saying is prolonging the war in ukraine. it is gathering support for vladimir putin within russia, and it is causing needless death, and i don't understand it. and i can't explain it. >> so, bobby, when i worked on campaigns, and i don't bring up these days how often on this program, but if we used a news clip, the news organization was usually angry and sent out a cease and desist letter. i remember in 2004, i think we used a clip or could have been 2008 of a tim russert interview with someone i was working for. nbc news sent a cease and desist letter. the network did not want tim featured in any political advertising. crickets. i have not seen fox news send a cease and desist letter to the kremlin to say, do not air an

american broadcaster and our most prominent highest rated one at that. there's been no cease and desist letter to the kremlin to not run tucker carlson's clips. why not? >> that's very interesting. if that is true, then that is quite egregious. i can't understand why the institution, fox news, the company would not at least cover itself, even if we set aside that that's the right thing to do. but even legally, to cover itself, why it wouldn't do such a thing. you have to assume they're doing it. perhaps they're not making a noise about it but you have to assume they're doing it. of course, even if they were doing it, i don't think russian television would necessarily care one way or the other, but it would be a signal for fox to send the rest of us that they are conscious that they're being misused in this manner. i mean, the -- as pete was saying, it's not only that tucker is saying exactly the -- singing the exact song that moscow wants to hear.

it's also the -- it's also who it is, who he is, not so much a big media figure in this country, but tucker in many ways embodies the russian cliche about americans. loud, aggressively ignorant, arrogant. this is how russians see the stereotypical american. the only thing missing from this picture is a cowboy hat, and he would be the sort of -- the russian equivalent of central casting for an american, pompous ass being figured on the television. so, it's perfect. it's absolutely perfect from their point of view that that figure should be saying this. you know, we pay attention to what the russian media says, and you know, we obviously make effort to try and verify whether what we hear is accurate. we triangulate when there is no other way to verify information. they're not interested in that. this is not television or news as you and i would think about

it. this is pure propaganda. and he is pure gold. >> to that end, we spent a lot of time trying to verify this image. this is something that igor nobikov mentioned in the last hour. this is a protest on russian television. do we have that? >> sorry. takes courage and likely has some pretty big consequences. >> it's an extraordinarily brave thing for her to have done. what we know about her is that she is a producer on russian tv. she put out a separate message before she went on air. she put out a video in which she explained what she was about to do. she said she was ashamed to be part of putin's propaganda machine. she was ashamed to cover up what was actually going on. and that this is her way of cleansing herself of that shame, and that message says, no war.

it says, don't believe what you are being told on this channel. you are being lied to. and it's extraordinary. and she says at the end of that other message she put up before, they can't arrest us all. of course, she has been arrested, and it thousands much of little acts, people protesting in the streets, hauled off immediately. you showed that in an earlier segment. whether collectively all acts of bravery will add up to something meaningful and change the narrative does not shortcut. we won't know until we know and that will take time. >> watch the clock, see if there is. thank you both very much for spending time with us. when we come back, what we know

about the tragic death of an american journalist at a check point outside kyiv. stay with us. check point outside kyiv stay with us wayfair has everything i need to make my home totally me. sometimes, i'm a homebody. can never have too many pillows! sometimes, i'm all business. a serious chair for a serious business woman! i'm always a mom- that is why you are smart and chose the durable fabric. perfect. i'm not a chef- and, don't mind if i do. but thanks to wayfair, i do love my kitchen.

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my friend is brent renaud, he has been shot and left behind. >> that was matt riley reporting for "nbc nightly news" on the death of the journalist covering the war in ukraine outside kyiv. bring in matt bradley live in lviv. i saw the report last night, i wanted to talk to you today. tell me what his death, what the impact is for all of you. you're obviously risking your lives as many ukrainian journalists to shine light on the abuses and the war there. this has to hit close to home for all of you. >> reporter: it certainly does. you know, i have to tell you, nicole, there was another more recent tragedy, a friend of mine, benjy hall that works for fox news was very seriously injured also outside kyiv. the details are sketchy. he was seriously injured in what sounds like a projectile blast and he is in the hospital right

now. we don't have many details. again, talking brent renaud, now benjy hall who is a friend of mine, classmate from college. hell of a guy, great journalist as was brent renaud. it does hit home and reminds us all that we need to be careful when we are in these situations, we have excess of enthusiasm, myself and colleagues, we want to get out there, do our best, bring this story to the world. have to remind ourselves, sometimes takes these incidents to remind us to be careful as we can possibly be. >> it also brings home how brutal the russian attack is, that nobody is off limits. that's another norm busting aspect of this war now. >> reporter: no, it is true. even journalists, when we go into combat zones, we have td written in duck tape across

trucks. we wear vests with journalists on it. we take every possible precaution. these things still happen all the time. there's just no way to be totally prepared. >> please, be totally, totally safe. we are grateful to you and your colleagues. so important. thank you very much. quick break for us. we'll be right back. > quick bres we'll be right back. on a trip. book with priceline. you save more, so you can “woooo” more. - wooo. - wooo. wooooo!!!!! woohooooo!!!! w-o-o-o-o-o... yeah, feel the savings. priceline. every trip is a big deal. thinkorswim® equips you with customizable tools, dedicated trade desk pros, and a passionate trader community sharing strategies right on the platform.

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