techniques, including -- this is a new one and i can imagine this infecting our politics. russia using the fact-check formula to put out disinformation. you can remember, you covered those stories where the parties did fake local news sites. >> yeah. >> i can see fake fact checks coming our way. >> and russians using clips from american media to support their cases from other cable news channels. michael allen, thank you for being here. great to see you. >> thank you, jonathan. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪♪ 20 days into the war and russia has yet to carry out its central mission, capturing the ukrainian capital of kyiv, but not for lack of trying. russian forces continued bombing ukraine's capital overnight and

moving closer to the city center. plus a show of defines from a woman who stormed a tv broadcast as she protested the war as she called for fellow russians to speak out. meanwhile, warning there will be consequences coming to ukraine's aid. several allies are to arrive in ukraine this morning, the prime ministers of poland, the czech republic and slovenia say they will meet with president zelenskyy in kyiv sometime today to express the european union's unequivocal support for ukraine and to offer financial help. wow. closing in. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, march 15th. columnist and associate editor for "the washington post" david ignatius is with us. before we dive into the latest developments, joe, i mean this

march to kyiv is brutal. it is not going as planned. >> well, it has just been brutal. david ignatius, the headline of "the new york times," the screaming headline of "the new york times" this morning says it all. russian advance appears to stall. despite bombardment, the russians have been reduced to just terrorizing citizens and bombing apartment buildings because they are not able to advance on the ground the way they expected. >> joe, the russian performance militarily just simply has not been what was expected. their tactics are poor. their leadership is poor. their command and control, all of the things that putin had tried hard to improve after the russian assault on georgia in 2008, he hasn't made much progress. that's what we're seeing. the performance of the ukrainians has been extraordinary, using the weapons that they have, fighting on their territory, fighting with a

passion of people who want to save their homeland. they have stopped the russians. "the washington post" this morning has a piece by my colleague which just explains how hour-by-hour, day-by-day they've kept the russians out of kyiv by fighting tough and hard. so we're in a phase, as you wrote it in "the post" this morning where it is a different phase of the war, whether it is about stopping the russians, from obtaining the goals they sought when they first invaded. you don't want to be too hopeful when you see the terrible assaults on buildings and the human suffering, but the ukrainians are doing well. they're getting visited by european leaders today. the talk that president biden himself might go to europe to be in effect a war leader of this coalition of nato that's working together, supporting ukraine. i think increasingly powerfully in the struggle. so it is a day when you can see

the enormous success the ukrainians, the frustration of the russians. at some point the russians are going to say we want to talk more seriously about peace and a cease-fire. we will see if that's ahead in the days and weeks coming. >> david, that's what i wanted to talk to you about. you know, not so long ago the ukrainians were saying that the russians weren't interested in negotiating, they were making demands. ukrainians are not -- the ukrainian side is not saying that now. and even though they got nowhere in yesterday's negotiations, they're meeting up again today. they say the russians actually are going back and forth, and they do feel like they can make progress. my question is this, david. you know, we think about the three weeks attack, i wonder how much sitting on the border in the snow for months took out of these 100,000-plus troops. these are troops that have to be

exhausted. they went into a country, invaded a country, they thought they would be greeted as liberators. instead they have grandmothers shoving sunflower seeds in their pockets saying, when you die at least these sunflower seeds will grow. at some point not only is the morale terrible, at some point they're just going to be exhausted. how much longer can putin continue this invasion? >> it is a huge force, in addition to the 150,000 main combat maneuver forces at the border and now inside the country, there are another 100,000, i'm told, that are backing them up. so you have a force of 250,000. it sounds huge, but if you are talking about occupying a country the size of ukraine u.s. military analysts think it is woefully inadequate, nowhere near as many forces as you would need. one striking thing, joe, is that the russian forces are taking

casualties at far greater rates than the united states took during its invasion of iraq. they have already suffered on the order of 5,000 casualties or more. the numbers are very hard to come by. but that's way above what the u.s. experienced in the first three weeks of the invasion of iraq. so this has been a very tough fight for the russians. the ukrainians are gaining confidence. i think as they gain confidence, in a sense they want to dig in harder. the desire of the ukrainians is not to settle for a cease-fire that in any way ratifies any aspect of vladimir putin's claims on ukraine. they're fighting for their freedom. they mean it. they're not going to settle cheap. >> mika -- >> wow. >> -- as david said, the casualties stacking up against the russians, anywhere from 5,000 to 13,000. even if it is on the low end, the very conservative end of 5,000 deaths, that's more nan the united states suffered in 20 years in afghanistan. >> tactically and strategically,

historically this is very important. at the same time they are still wreaking havoc in ukraine and there is so much suffering. as we said, three european leaders are traveling to kyiv tomorrow in a show of support for ukraine. the leaders of the czech republic -- this is actually happening today, excuse me. czech republic, poland and slovenia will travel by train and meet with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy. as "the new york times" reports, the visit comes as evidence grows that russia's advance has stalled across multiple fronts. talks between russian and ukrainian negotiators were set to resume today, presenting a narrow path to a diplomatic solution. all of this as russia intensifies attacks on the ukrainian capital, hitting several residential buildings this morning. one person was killed when a series of russian strikes hit a ten-story apartment building, sparking a huge fire.

local officials say several residents are still trapped inside and rescue workers are trying to evacuate them. officials also say the shock waves from the blast damaged the entrance of a nearby metro station. two people were killed, seven injured yesterday when russians hit an airplane factory in kyiv. moscow claims it used pinpoint attacks to destroy what it said was an ammunition depot there. then this. a cc tv video caught a russian strike hitting a tram carriage and surrounding buildings. one person was killed in this attack and at least 19 were killed and nine injured when russian rockets destroyed a tv tower in another western city. as we said, the diplomatic efforts between russian and ukraine continue today. the two sides will meet for a fifth round, a fifth round of talks. european president zelenskyy made another appeal yesterday to russian soldiers and citizens

who are fed up with the war. here he is in a video posted to social media yesterday. we've put the english translation on the screen. >> zelenskyy will virtually address members of u.s. congress tomorrow. in a joint letter yesterday announcing the speech, house speaker nancy pelosi and senate

majority leader chuck schumer wrote in part, quote, congress remains unwavering in our commitment to supporting ukraine as they face putin's cruel and die bog cal aggression. we look forward to the privilege of welcoming president zelenskyy's address to the house and senate and to convey our support to the people of ukraine as they bravely defend democracy. >> david ignatius, i somehow think the topic of polish migs may come up. what do you think will be on zelenskyy's mind when he addresses the joint session of congress? >> i would against that he's going to thank the united states for supporting him. he's going to ask for more help. he is going to say we stand alone fighting the fight that we all share against putin's authoritarian rule, but i would be surprised if he wasn't in a mood to thank america. we're putting now billions of dollars into support for ukraine. i think he is going to ask for

more. i think the migs will be part of that, but it is probably not going to be a successful appeal. the pentagon cements pretty well set against it, but there are lots of things the white house is thinking about doing to add to ukraine's ability to resist russian aggression, a bigger, stronger anti-aircraft missile systems, the possibility of drones that can do real damage to these russian forces, all of the things that an army needs to figh i think they're trying to make sure they have in stock, they get from former soviet allies that have got extra stocks to provide, and they get them into the country quickly. they're really mobilizing for that, and so there will be discussion of that between zelenskyy and the members of congress. i think it is important that president biden will be trying in his way to embrace this struggle as strongly as he can.

i heard somebody in the biden administration tell me yesterday, if you want to find peace for this country that is being slammed every day by these terrible rocket attacks -- we see the video -- then provide them more weapons. the way to get to an end of this war is to be tougher on russia. russia is on the run. hit them harder now. that's the way you get to peace. >> well, the white house is weighing a potential overseas trip for president biden to europe in the coming weeks. the visit would focus on the war in ukraine and strengthening alliances, according to three u.s. officials with two people familiar with the discussions. nbc news reports nato is discussing holding a meeting with heads of state next week in brussels, according to u.s. and foreign officials, who said a meeting of leaders from members of the military alliance could serve as a venue for a biden trip. >> let's bring in host of "way

too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico", jonathan lemire. let's talk about the trip for a second. let's go back to what zelenskyy will be asking for in front of the joint session of congress. david said that the pentagon really feels strongly about not getting those migs over to the ukrainians. what can we expect? what additional measures can we expect the white house to take, under pressure as he is from all sides? >> my reporting lines up with david's. the pentagon is very reluctant to send over those migs, the jets. it does not seem to be on the table right now. but there will be hope that the u.s. gets more arms over there, as tricky as that is. it is going to be a pretty powerful political moment tomorrow when zelenskyy addresses congress. he, of course, has emerged as this really rousing figure, the churchill comparisons have been

bandied about and i think it will thank the u.s. tomorrow. white house officials that i talked to expect he will make a rousing call for more help, and i think he will probably energize more congress who will be happy to walk to the microphones and demand that. and, therefore, it will be a balancing act for russia -- for the white house as, you know, they try to engage with ukraine as best they can while not being fully involved, engaged to the point where armed conflict would break out with russia. white house aides i talked to last night, they expect there might be moments of them being uncomfortable here where zelenskyy is going to make big asks, asks that the white house may not be able to immediately provide as much as, of course, they want to showcase his heroism and bravery. an employee of russian television's channel one stormed the set to protest the war. she has been identified by a russian human rights organization as marine awe

osenokova. here is how it played out on live television before millions of russian viewers. [ speaking foreign language ] >> the broadcast abruptly cut away to another scene. the sign read "no war, don't believe the propaganda, they're lying to you." before storming the set the protesters released a video saying in part what is going on in ukraine is a crime. unfortunately, i have been working at channel one during recent years, working on kremlin propaganda, and now i'm very ashamed. osenokova ended her message by telling her fellow russians, quote, it is only in our power to stop this madness. take to the streets. do not be afraid. they can't jail us all. a russian human rights lawyer says the woman has since been

detained. she could face up to 15 years behind bars under a new crackdown on protests. russia passed a law recently that prohibits anyone from spreading information that contradicts the kremlin's official narrative of the war. >> david ignatius, we have seen more protests in russia of late than we have in quite sometime. the scene last night is one that we will all remember for quite sometime, and there are other acts of bravery. i do wonder, this is not, as we keep reminding our viewers, the soviet union in 1975. information still is getting out, and younger people especially will be able to go around russian censors and figure out a way to get news from the war, news from the west. the same with mothers who are getting phone calls from their

sons, hearing of all of the deaths, hearing of the deplorable situation. i wonder if maybe, just maybe vladimir putin may start feeling a bit of pressure to move towards a settlement here. >> i think he does feel pressure, joe. the pressure is the kind that any leader, political leader feels when a military campaign is bogged down and his people are beginning to find out about it. you're right. russia is not a totally closed society. information is getting in. you can see people voting with their feet, russians who are money are rushing to get out of the country. they're leaving across the border into finland, they're going south to georgia and armenia. they want out, and i think that problem is only going to get worse. interestingly, the white house is thinking about ways to get more information into moscow, to get more information into st. petersburg, these urban areas so people know what is going on.

there are lots of complicated technology issues they're trying to think through about how to help boost the broadband connection, if you will, so people can see and here what is going on the battle front. i think as time goes forward, if putin insists on continuing with this war, the pressure at home is going to grow. the effect of the economic sanctions, i think is even more powerful than the u.s. expected. that's the early assessment as people look at what happens when you have no more visa card, no more mastercard, no way to buy things electronically. you have increasing shortages of all of the basics that people need, and that's only going to get worse. on the technology front, the simplest things from your cellphone to all of the other electronic things that are part of modern life if you live in st. petersburg or moscow, those are going to become increasingly difficult to get. so i think the sanctions, making

them work in a sense remains job one because it is such a powerful weapon. >> certainly the white house thinking is that it is not just about the oligarchs they sanction, but rather the everyday people with the economic impact. when the people in russia who have grown accustomed to a quality of life they're now losing because of these sanctions, because of russia's war, and, joe, part of the last effort to get more information into moscow would be the presidential -- potential presidential trip. returning to that for a second, my reporting, no decision has been made yet but there is talk of a nato meeting next week in brussels. if that meeting happens, there's a possibility that president biden would go. a second stop, potentially warsaw. so it would be brussels first. that's obviously the headquarters of nato and the eu, the president has rallied the allies there. it would be such a unified front, it would be a unified symbol to stand there. and then on to poland perhaps as

a thank you, right on the front line, they've received more refugees from ukraine and say, look, the west democracies are standing together. they're watching in kyiv where the bombardments are increasing, a curfew was just put out there, they want to see where the war is in that theater. but as to the protester and her bravery, it is remarkable. the russian courts are asking for more prison time for navalny. so everyone who is protesting they know the risks and they're doing it anyway. >> incredible. it is incredible. >> david, let's just underline very briefly the power of europe, what europe has done over the past month. you had donald trump for four years, five years, just absolutely eviscerating the importance of nato, trying to

gut nato, attacking angela merkel, attacking theresa may, attacking macron, attacking leaders basically of democracies, western democracies. but what has happened, a fractured nato has come together. the eu is flexing its muscles. it has been an extraordinary three weeks. i can't think of a more extraordinary three weeks in european history since 1989. >> so it has been extraordinary. joe, we thought of nato almost as road kill during the trump years. the nato alliance was fractured. it was demoralized. an american president was attacking it, talking about pulling american troops out of nato. now we see the rebirth of this alliance, the strength that it has, the way it has turned around russian expectations. russia -- putin thought that nato was dead. that's part of what he invaded.

he thought this was a roll over. it turns out this basic ade of nato standing together, collective solidarity, supporting people who want freedom, who want the things that european union/nato countries have, that's as strong as it ever was. it is not surprising that president biden wants to come in a sense put his hands together with other nato leaders and talk about this alliance and what it has achieved. i think back historically to franklin roosevelt's visit with allied leaders during world war ii, those incredible moments where fdr shaped strategy with his fellow war leaders. i don't mean to overstate this, but there is going to be a little bit of that. there's going to be a little bit of coming together to think of how to respond to a tyrant, a person bombarding these cities and civilians. we are all seeing the horrifying pictures of the pregnant woman

and her child who were killed in the russian attack. deeply in the hearts of those in europe, i just was in europe, europe was on fire with emotion, support, passion for what is happening in ukraine. it is a new europe, joe and mika. it is something really important to see. >> wow. >> it is extraordinary, the last three weeks. a new europe has emerged and, mika, as katty kay told us, all of her friends, all of her relatives in britain and across europe, the reaction is visceral because of the memories of world war ii. >> and as our analysis and coverage continues, let's get the latest from on the ground. nbc news correspondent molly hunter joins us live from lviv, ukraine. molly, what's the latest there? >> reporter: mika, so we are in the west of the country, as we've discussed. this has been the relative safe haven for anyone fleeing the violence in the east, passing through and moving on to the

rest of europe. but the headline this morning is in the capital of kyiv. it is the second night where civilian targets, purely civilian targets have been hit by russian airstrikes again. we just got word from the mayor of that city, vitaly klitschko. he has announced a two-day curfew. he said today is a difficult and dangerous moment. prohibition throughout the city without special passes, you can only go to reach a shelter. therefore i ask all citizens of kyiv to prepare for the fact they will have to be at home for the next few days. clearly an ominous sign of what they expect in the capital tonight. now, all of this is happening as next round of talks continues between the russians and the ukrainians. now, last night after the talks there was a technical pause. anyone reading the tea leaves took away some cautious optimism that there was more runway for these talks to continue, there was more on the table. for the ukrainians that is priority number one, is to get a cease-fire. we are talking a lot about the humanitarian situation and the temporary cease-fires that have thus far failed in mariupol. we do have some news out of that

southeastern town on the black sea, a city i should say on the black sea that has been besieged, that the russians have been starving out. 450,000 people inside. well, overnight the first civilians that we have heard about in the last ten days came out of the city in private vehicles, about 150 private vehicles, hundreds of people. we don't know the exact number. that is very, very good news. that was not on an official humanitarian convoy, that was not on buses e we have been tracking though this humanitarian convoy, this cargo, 100 tons of aid, water, life saving medicine, food for people trapped inside. it has been moving towards mariupol for the last 72 hours. last night it was blocked again by russians. the information we have this morning is that it is heading in again this morning. they also say, and this is the governor of donetsk, they're going to let private transport come out again today, but there are buses waiting for the all clear, waiting for the confirmation there will be a

cease-fire to go into the city to pick up women, children and elderly who couldn't scramble to private cars. that's the humanitarian focus. once they get out of mariupol, they're still in east of the country. to get to relative safety it is here in the west in lviv. of course, in the last couple of days even that has been shattered by continued stepped up attacks in the west of the country. mika, i'll send it back to you. >> molly, there are so many stories about nannies staying to take care of babies, people staying to take care of animals, and a little later on in the show you have a story you will bring to us about teachers staying to teach. so we'll look forward to that. nbc's molly hunter, thank you very much for your reporting on the ground. still ahead on "morning joe," clint watts joins us next at the big bore for the latest on russian troop movements. plus, why are ukraine's slow and cheaply made drones so successful against russian targets? nbc's ken dilanian will join us with new reporting on that.

also ahead, a bit of good news when it comes to gas prices. u.s. oil takes a dip as market volatility appears to ease up. >> and we'll read from joe's new piece for "the washington post" entitled "the war in ukraine is moving into a new phase, biden and the west had better get ready." as we go to break, a piercing look at the ukrainian troops, not only holding off the violent invasion of their country but also lifting up the most vulnerable parts of their population caught in the crosshairs of vladimir putin, innocent children and the elderly, pregnant women and those hospitalized even before the incursion. it is a remarkable look at the perseverance and resilience of the ukrainian people. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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you know, david ignatius, bill clinton had this great saying. he said, "if a turtle ends up on top of a fence post, it didn't get there by accident." you could say the same thing about people who work for the chinese government who drop op-eds in the sunday "new york times" saying, listen, listen, we're not really that close to the russians. i mean our interests really lie with you and all of the money you have in the west. i was fascinated by the placement of that on sunday in "the new york times." it didn't get there by accident. david, i am curious what you thought about the six-hour meeting between chinese officials and jake sullivan yesterday. >> so i had the same response to that op-ed that you did, joe. i thought, wait a minute, this supposed private consultant isn't just expressing these views about what beijing should

do by chance. so the most interesting thing that i know about the meeting between sullivan and jang jiechi, and there's a lot that we don't know that happened, but we know what was released in the statement afterwards and it was fascinating. i will release a few excerpts. the chinese said the situation today in ukraine has reached a stage that the chinese side does not want to see. then they went on to repeat their line, that they oppose sovereigty and territorial boundaries. in other words they were clearly distancing themselves from russia. i thought it was significant. the chinese are not comfortable, seeming to be russia's only

international support. they see the war is going badly with russia in a sense. they don't want to go down with the russians. you know what one thing that ukraine is teaching me is that it would be a lot harder for china to take taiwan than i would have thought a few weeks ago. taiwan is across a strait. you know, ukraine is this big, flat plane you roll tanks in. taiwan is even harder. i wonder if the chinese aren't thinking to themselves, russia is demonstrating the west is more together than we thought. they will be a harder adversary. taking a capital that wants to resist you as china would be resisted, will be harder than we thought. >> caller: jonathan lemire, i have been struck by how the chinese and the russians remain in lock step. they don't look at the reality. as i said, russia has a gdp

every year that's smaller than the state of texas. between the united states and the eu you have over $40 trillion of gdp annually, and this was really an alliance that was fraying at the seams of vladimir putin invaded ukraine. the chinese can't be happy for a variety of reasons. still, the white house is sending strong warning to them that there will be consequences if they don't back away from their newfound friend. >> yes, the white house is not being quite as explicit as telling beijing that it is a time for choosing, but the message is there, that this is time to back away from vladimir putin and russia. we are seeing perhaps early signs of that. the administrations i spoke to don't expect a public rebuke from beijing to moscow, that's not their style, but they'll distance themselves. think how far we have come from the statement david just read a

few weeks ago as the winter olympics where putin and xi said their partnership said they had no limits. well, they may have found limits here, that's what u.s. officials believe, and that chien u will be looking at making trades with the west and europe than certainly now a pariah state in russia. the pressure will continue here. they don't expect an overnight transition, but the hope among officials that i speak to is that xi jinping won't want to be seen as putin's lone benefactor and will slowly pull away from russia and certainly not supply the military and economic assistance that moscow has requested. >> okay. coming up we will get to the maps, and clint watts at the big board. also, what is a russian oligarch and why are they being sanctioned? how? what does it look like? we'll have those answers next on "morning joe".

>> boy, i'll tell you a really strange game at chelsea. yeah, abramovich, the sanctions arriving, an impact on that team, but obviously having sanctions against oligarchs having a much bigger impact across the globe. we'll explain why when we come back. ♪♪ making friends again, billy? i like to keep my enemies close. guys, excuse me. i didn't quite get that. i'm hard of hearing. ♪♪ oh hey, don't forget about the tense music too. would you say tense? i'd say suspenseful. aren't they the same thing? can we move on guys, please? alexa, turn on the subtitles. and dim the lights. ok, dimming the lights.

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41 past the hour. before we go to the maps, new reporting from "the washington post" explains how ukrainian forces have managed to hold kyiv despite being outgunned. rob lee, a senior fellow at the foreign policy research institute and an expert on russian defense policy, tells "the post" that the russians were not ready for unconventional warfare. adding, quote, they are not sure how to deal with this insurgency -- >> anybody hear of afghanistan? i mean how could they not be prepared for guerilla warfare?

i mean it is crazy, mika. >> well, "the post" reports this. for the ukrainian forces this war is one of attrition. they appear to be trying to slow and wear down the russian military, creating conditions for a stalemate on the outer boundaries of kyiv that would buy the ukrainians time for other pressures on russian president vladimir putin. that appears to be exactly what they're doing. to be sure, the report continues, most military analysts and western officials still predict russian forces will eventually encircle kyiv and push into the capital, possibly added by airstrikes. while this could prove true, it is far from clear whether russia will prevail. >> yeah, i've got to say i have yet to talk to a military analyst, a retired general that says russia will prevail. they don't have enough troops. even if they sent all 200,000 troops into kyiv to take it and to hold it, it would be next to

impossible, especially with the dynamics that are on the battlefield right now. you have a charged, intense, positive defending force that's defending their homeland against young kids for the most part and disorganized troops that don't want to be there. let's figure out exactly where everybody is on the big board. let's go to national security analyst for nbc news and msnbc, clint watts. he is at the big board. clint, show us where the bulk of the russian attacks have ben over the past 24 hours for this very large force. not big enough to hold ukraine, but big enough to cause big problems, but a force for the most part that's been bogged down. >> yes, joe. it has been very interesting watching through the weekend what has happened. it is a slowdown of the russian military. what we've seen are these

airstrikes to the west, that's that military base that was struck with the missile. lots of casualties. this was always probably going to happen. the russians have to cut off the supply lines coming into ukraine or they will never, ever be able to take the ukrainian military. there's some doubt whether they can do that. here in the north, this is kyiv, just watching this, this is the convoy from last week. they're trying to splinter out here to the west. you see them in and around irpin. that's where richard engel was a lot of last week. they can't get really a bridge head. there's a water obstacle that goes through this area. separately, there are two armor formations that have been moving down these highways. in both cases, this is an area where artillery, ukrainian artillery, airstrikes have just knocked out an armor group. it is remarkable to even see this, a total lack of discipline by the russian forces. that's why you see in all of these corridors essentially the russians just trying to do resupply, just trying to get their bearings. they are definitely trying to

encircle here to the north and over time to encircle from the south. i think this is the big question which you mentioned, joe, how could they ever do this? how could they ever sustain this? even if they encircle, it will take weeks for them to get into position. it would take weeks more to go into kyiv. this is a large urban area that's going to put up an intense fight and they still have not cut off resupply into here. separately, the bigger fight and i think what we need to watch is what is going on here in the cities close to the russian border in the east. kharkiv is a major battle. the ukrainian military doing an amazing job fighting. this is so close to the border, this is where we're worried about things like would the russians use chemical weapons to go after population centers they bypassed. this is where the battle has really gone and you are seeing the crimea playbook unfold. kherson is a city they took about ten days ago.

they basically installed what they would call a republic. they want to encircle odesa. they're struggling to get around there, the ukrainian military putting up an intense fight here. remarkable to watch thousand they've been able to stave this off. i think it points to the bigger picture, which is they have siege warfare here and they're trying to do it in other towns but they have a big problem. they want to advance to dnipro which is a major city on the river. if they can unify the axis they would be able to cut off central ukraine. it leads to one big problem for them, is protests. what you are seeing in the rear area with the light blue dots is you have ukrainians protesting in what is occupied russia. they've brought down riot control police to kherson to try to get the situation under control. you see remarkable footage from

that. but if they're bringing those down here who is doing riot control back home in russia? >> so i want to just jump in and ask clint, looking at your big board i am wondering about russian logistical problems, whether they're able to supply that army as it penetrates deeper and deeper towards kyiv, towards other ukrainian cities. they seem to be having problems with fuel and other supplies. what do you hear from your contacts? >> so a couple of things, david. we did see -- that's rob lee who you talked about just before in that segment, remarkable researcher at foreign policy research institute. he showed essentially ships coming in for first time. they would be coming in from the sea of azov. they've essentially made it a russian sea. it was part ukrainian, part russian. you have seen rail heads being used. you might remember from discussions a couple of weeks ago about nuclear plants. one of the reason you want the nuclear plants is, yes, you want

to control the power but there's a major rail head there as well. you can do resupply. when we look in terms of logistics, still very weak. what you see is here in the east they're trying to establish some of the rail heads because they want to be able to supply from town to town. down here in the south, the same thing. but it is very limited. where they're really struggling is here in and around kyiv. this is just resupplied by road. much more difficult to do. you can't bring the logistics in that you need and that's why they keep getting bogged down because they can't advance and secure. they're not using enough dismount of mounted infantry to keep the columns safe. >> you know, from the beginning the ukrainians have said, well, the russians have the advantage in the countryside, they have the advantage out in the hop. but when they come into the city, when they come into kyiv we have the advantage. that being said, if they're having this much trouble outside the city, what happens when they go in and have to put up, you

know, try to take over a city with millions of people and deal with urban combat? how ugly does that get for the russians? >> joe, as an infantryman we used to plan ten to one, that you needed ten fighters essentially to go after one in the defense in an urban environment. >> wow. >> when you look at this urban environment, and you have a russian military. we are not talking about the american military. you have a russian military, there's a lot of doubt about their morale and willingness to go in. you've seen some dismounted airborne troops coming in this direction. we know they will want to put more people on the ground, but it is just not an army that's built for this. they rely on heavy fires. they rely on lots of armor formations. there's nothing more worthless than a tank in the middle of kyiv that has a standoff of ten feet when it is designed for thousands of meters. so they're going to hit just a wall of resistance here, and that's why you are going to see them just keeping up this pummelling and use of large fires, ballistic missiles,

airstrikes coming in from the russian side of this border still hitting in kyiv. they're going to have to just pummel this town to get it and even then i'm not sure that they could take it. >> all right. clint watts, thank you so much once again. another example of the resiliency of ukrainian defense forces is the surprisingly lethal impact its use of relatively cheap drones has had on russian forces. this video posted on twitter by a journalist in turkey shows a russian missile launcher sitting in the open. suddenly it is consumed by a huge fire ball. that was a work of a turkish-made tb-2 drone. the unmanned drone can hover over tanks and destroy them, seemingly with devastatingly accurate missile fire. why are ukraine's cheap, slow drones so successful against russian targets? for that let's bring in nbc news correspondent covering national security and intelligence, ken dilanian.

ken, explain. how effective have they been? how many russian targets have they been able to take out? >> good morning, mika. we don't know the answer to that for sure, but a u.s. defense official briefed reporters yesterday and said they had used these weapons, the ukrainians had, to great effect against the russians. one expert has tracked as many as 30 individual strikes against russian vehicles. the reason it is so confounding to experts, we knew the ukraines had about 20 of these small drones before the conflict. when i would ask military experts about their impact, they said, oh, don't think about those, the russians will make quick work of those systems. they can jam with electronics. if they can't do that, they will shoot them down because they fly so slowly, like 110 miles per hour. once again, the experts over estimated the competence of the russian military. it is flying and hitting the very missile systems that are supposed to be able to take it down. what is remarkable about the

drone system is we are used to the reaper and predator drones that the u.s. military flies, they fly hellfire missiles. these cost about $1 million to $2 million, they fire small missiles. one big question is what is the u.s. doing to make sure the ukrainians are resupplied with this weapon system? a defense official said they're working to do that, didn't offer any specifics. turkey, which is trying to remain neutral in the conflict, appears to have sold them more systems at the beginning according to the ukrainian defense minister. but some people are wondering why aren't we rushing more of these kinds of weapons. there's another type of drone called a kamakaze drone which could be more effective. these can be launched from eight miles away. remember that long convoy of vehicles, that could have been

decimated. >> ken, yeah, let me ask you that question. i bet everyone watching right now is going, why aren't we supplying more of these. >> well, you know, i had a conversation with a hill staffer about a u.s. system called the switchblade, which is a kamikaze drone that the u.s. military fields but it is not approved for export anywhere except the united kingdom. there is a concern about sharing this technology, but this is not -- this is pretty old technology, like ten years old. the russians have a version of this, the chinese have it, the israelis make some kamikaze drones. so they're available on the market. it is a great question why more haven't been sent to the ukrainians. you know, there is some training involved in using these systems, joe. there's actually been reports that turkish military advisors have been on the scene to help the ukrainians operate these drones, but open question why more have not been sent. >> ken, what official administration put to me is also

these russian targets are sitting ducks. they're taking no effort to try to hide themselves, heat sources and things like these and the drones can pick them off. it goes to one of the confounding mysteries of the conflict, russia's inability to secure the skies. officials you have talked to, why do they think russia has not been able to control the airspace over ukraine? >> it is a great mystery. one theory is that the initial operation was not normally the way russians fight. it was a pinprick. it was a small effort that putin thought he would topple the regime by sending in cursory forces and they didn't bring in all of the air defense they normally operate with. they didn't do the electronic jamming people thought they were capable of so they don't have the basic air defense. they've not been able to achieve air superiority, such that they can't take these drones out of the air. >> thank you for that reporting. fascinating. still ahead, targeting wealthy oligarchs has been a key

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♪♪ it is the top of the hour. a live look at the white house. the sun is struggling to come up over washington. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, march 15th. david ignatius and jonathan lemire are still with us. in a moment we will talk to the mayor of warsaw, poland, where hundreds of thousands of ukrainian refugees have fled. first, the latest developments on the war. the battle continues for kyiv. ukrainian forces have managed to hold on to its capital, but russian forces are pushing closer to the city center with new attacks targeting civilians. this morning the mayor of kyiv

announced a curfew that will take effect later tonight until thursday morning. this new facebook message from ukraine's president this morning. quote, "we shall restore everything, every street of every city, every house, every apartment, we will put our best to this, all the help of the world." >> i want to stop there for a second. david ignatius, you do get a sense when this world is over you are going to have the eu, other european nations, america, the rest of the world dedicated to helping ukraine, those of us who believe that they will be victorious in the end. you almost sense almost a second marshall plan for the company that has come to symbolize so

many things that we in the west believe have come to symbolize. >> absolutely right. the figure of volodymyr zelenskyy in his tee shirt, he may not look like winston churchill in his bowler hat and neat tie, but he is a symbol of the moment. i think he arouses deep passion within ukraine and across europe. as he speaks to congress tomorrow in the united states and the commitment that people feel to these brave ukrainians, led by president zelenskyy, is profound. i talked to the president of the world bank, david malpass yesterday, about how to rebuild ukraine after the horror of this world. he talked about billions, tens of billions of dollars that the world bank leading the world community is going to pour in. it is almost, joe, a second birth of the ideals of the post world war, the things that people fought for in 1945 are back and they're as animated and

intense as they ever were. i think in many ways you have zelenskyy to thank for that. he is the symbol, not just of resistance but of this idea of a free, whole europe standing up to dictators. >> well, you know, churchill has become almost a character of fiction. when you see one movie after another or read one book after another, it seems to have come from an older, more quaint, more simple time, but it doesn't get more simple than this, good versus bad, good versus evil and the sort of bravery that president zelenskyy is showing every single day. it is not as if he is like churchill. he is churchillian if anybody has been churchillian since the battle of britain in 1940. >> you're right. these images i think we'll

remember for many years. there were many people that thought that zelenskyy wouldn't go back to kyiv. i can remember being in munich when he gave a speech and people would whisper, well, he's not going back. he finished his speech say in, i woke up this morning in kyiv and i'm going to go to bed tonight in kyiv, and, by golly, he did. now we have gotten used to these images of him. he is clearly a man who has decided, i will die here if i have to, to stand up for my country's freedom. i think that image, that bravery has stuck with all of us and makes everybody in the west want to stand with him. again, we will see the message he brings to the united states congress tomorrow. it is going to be a key moment. it is going to put a lot of pressure on the biden administration to do more, and i think they're going to have to think very carefully, what more can we do without risking world war iii. everybody is going to want to stand with volodymyr zelenskyy, that's for sure. >> yeah.

i have never seen a leader who says more with his actions on a daily basis, risking his life with no fear, and president zelenskyy is expected to meet with the prime ministers of poland, the czech republic and slovenia in kyiv later today. president biden is weighing his own trip to the region. sources say he is considering whether to visit eastern europe in the coming weeks. we will be following that. meanwhile, four weeks since russia started its brutal invasion of ukraine. refugees have flooded into neighboring countries and none has accepted more than poland. nearly 1.5 million ukrainians fleeing the war have come across the border and around 300,000 have made their way to the capital of warsaw. the city has done what it can to welcome refugees but the mayor of the city says they cannot take much more and is calling on the rest of the world to help. the mayor of warsaw, poland, rafal trzaskowski, joins us now.

mr. mayor, thank you so much for joining us. my brother sends his regards. i know you spent some time with him recently. tell us about the situation now, receiving refugees. how many has warsaw taken in and what is the situation, can you describe it? >> hello. good morning. thank you for having me. yes, 300,000 refugees arrived to warsaw. if you remember the mediterranean crisis in 2015, at a peak we had 300,000 refugees in europe and we just had 300,000 refugees in a matter of two weeks. that's the magnitude of the problem. of course, you know, pols welcome ukrainians with an open heart, but so far most of that was just improvisation of the people of the nongovernmental organizations and local authorities such as mine. >> so what would you need at this point to be able to accommodate the 300,000 that are

already there? are there any ideas being considered? because more are on the way and clearly the open heart is a wonderful personal passion in the beginning, but this is going to become a difficulty for not just the city of warsaw but towns across poland. what are some of the considerations? >> well, i mean let me make one thing abundantly clear. you know, ukraine is fighting for our freedom, for the freedom of poland, it is for the freedom of the european union and for the stability of the transatlantic alliance. that's why we need to do our bit. we will welcome ukrainians as long as it is needed. i received phone calls from vitaly klitschko, the mayor of kyiv and my friend from ukraine, and they say because you take care of our kids and family we can fight, we still have a power and will to fight. but two things need to be done.

first of all, we need assistance. it is not just the central government which needs assistance. it is the refugees themselves. it is the nongovernmental organizations, it is us, the local and regional governors and mayors who are on the ground. secondly and most importantly, we need a system because most of what's been done, of course there's no work done by the federal government, there's some work done by us. you know, our people workday and night. of course, they are diverted from the normal jobs and we can do it for a week, two, three, but we cannot do it forever. we need a system, and the united nations and the european union have a system in place, it works like lego bricks. one agency is responsible for building reception centers, the other one is responsible for providing water, another one takes care of refugees and gives them chip cards so they can buy things themselves or another one brings us teachers and psychologists. that's what we need, a system and a support from the whole free community of the world.

>> have you gotten word from the eu that that sort of help is coming soon? >> well, you know, the eu agencies and also the united nations agencies are already on the ground in poland and what we need now is just, you know, the polish central government to call for help and for a willingness to authorize those agencies to operate in poland. let me give you one example. we need a relocation scheme in europe and in the world so that this huge logistics exercise goes under way, because what happens now is just improvisation. in the middle of the night where i cannot absorb more people i call my friends from other cities in poland and in europe and they send buses and we bus people to better conditions but we cannot do it forever. we cannot improvise anymore. we need help. of course, volunteers, ngos, my own people are, working day and night but we need assistance. we need, for example, psychologists and teachers right

now because the people who are coming to warsaw now are much more traumatized. at the beginning they were taken care of by their families and friends. now they need accommodation, they need basic help. we provide it but we need assistance. mr. mayor, the people of america like the people of the world have been inspired by ukraine and the bravery of the ukrainian people, but we also hear wherever we go americans talking about the generosity, the open hearted nature of the polish people who allow their ukrainian brothers and sisters across the border. we understand this comes at a great price to you. i'm curious. what can the united states do itself? what can the united states congress and president biden do to make your burden just a little lighter? >> i mean first of all, let me thank the united states of america, the president, president biden and the american administration, of course, the

congress for very strong stance on the conflict. and because of that, because of those assurances that america and nato will fight for every inch of nato territory we can -- we can do our job because we feel secure. but we need assistance, and, of course, we need help. it is not just us, you know, the guys who are at the forefront helping out ukrainians but it is the refugees themselves, it is the ngos and volunteers. so we need help. for example, we need foldable beds, we need sleeping bags, we need, of course to help them with psychological care, we need trained teachers and interpreters and so on and so forth. most importantly, we simply need financial assistance which would go directly to refugees, ngos and local governments. >> all right. the may have of warsaw, rafal trzaskowski. thank you so much for being on the show this morning. we hope to talk to you again soon. joining us now, retired four

star army general barry mccaffrey, founding partner and washington correspondent for "puck" julia ioffe and associate professor at global politics at university college in london, brian klaas. great to have you this morning. i thought i would start by reading a part of your column, joe, if possible. >> we can get to that later. i would rather read the headline of "the new york times" this morning. >> okay. >> to general mccaffrey and get general mccaffrey's response. the screaming headline is "russian advance appears to stall despite bombardment." it appears, general, that the russians are capable of killing civilians but doing little else right now. talk about where we are in day 20 of this brutal and botched invasion by vladimir putin. >> well, i think you just characterized it. it is an astonishing situation. the russian army is in a mess.

they haven't been able to combine air and ground warfare, they haven't been able to bring to bear their offensive cyber capability, they haven't been able to break at a tactical level the ukrainian armed forces, they haven't been able to paralyze the civilian leadership with civilian casualties. in essence, they haven't yet taken a major city, not odesa which is vital, not kyiv, not kharkiv. the west is still relatively free of russian forces. by the way, they may have lost as many as 10% of their fighting troops. on any combat operation day one is the best day of a combat army and then the mechanical process of losing vehicles and people and chain of command starts to take over. so they're not doing well. but we should not russia to judgment on this. you know, this correlation of forces is still heavily in favor of the russians. they have not yet turned the

full fire power on kyiv. when they do, if they do, artillery and rockets, they will be firing 5 to 15,000 rounds a day. it won't be one apartment house. they will be trying to bring down the city as they did in aleppo, as they did in syria. they're in a mess. the chinese are not going to help them. the syrian urban fighters won't be a decisive matter. he is in a difficult diplomatic, political and military situation. >> general, if you were asked by a president to take kyiv, if for some reason hostile forces were in kyiv and we had to take it back over, how many troops would you need to take kyiv and hold it down? do the russians even have half of that number right now

surrounding kyiv? >> i think a lot of these algorithms are, you know, historical markers. they may not have any marker whatsoever. we took baghdad with one armored division and one marine division, and we did it in a few days. but kyiv will be a different process. the achilles heel of kyiv is a couple of million civilians hiding in basements, and if the grid gets turned off, the water and the heat and if there's heavy use of aerial bombardment and cruise missiles, that will be the pacing factor. as a general statement, this russian armor is not of high value in the city. they need dismounted infantry, and then it is a door-to-door, house-to-house fight. i don't think they're capable of doing it. so i think what they do is back off and bring the city down. but even putin must be aware this beautiful city that i have visited would be a disaster for

him. the optics of it might bring nato into the fight. that question has not yet been decided. >> you know, general, 40 years ago dr. brzezinski called the soviet union a one-dimensional power. he said they had no economic capacity, that they had failed, the soviets had failed to build adequate economic capacity, they had failed to build technological advances, they had failed to create a political dogma that was popular and could be exported. he said they were just a one-dimensional military power and that was it, so they could disrupt and do very little else. i'm curious your thoughts about even that one dimension of russian power and how much, how much putin has been hurt, how much the military's reputation has been damaged over these past 20 days. >> well, i think it is a factor,

there's no question. you know, putin put 20 years of work into trying to modernize and change the nature of the russian armed forces. they did extremely poorly in both chechnya where they essentially fought for two years to take this little republic down and destroy the city of grozny. they did extremely poorly in georgia. they lost control of their logistics, command and control there. putin had thought he had gotten a new military with a new doctrine, and the ground combat force, i might add, had been the least modernized. but he did try to do away largely with conscript soldiers in his combat battalions. mostly 80% of them are combat soldiers. i'm astonished at sort of a first level of analysis, watching abandoned combat vehicles left by the side of the road and no recovery process, running out of fuel, food, in

discipline, bunching up on roads. it is shameful military behavior. we also can't forget the ukrainians have been some incredibly fierce fighters. that's a country in arms. they have not backed off. so i don't know, he needs to get his forces out of ukraine under some political strategy before he ends up with a destroyed ukraine, sitting on it with an inadequate number of combat troops to even control it, never mind control the border. the place is the size of texas so he can't seal it off. there's four nato countries that adjoin ukraine. he's in trouble. >> well, now, let's move to the russian mindset. an employee of russian state television's channel one stormed the set of the nightly news broadcast last night to protest the war. she's been identified as a

russian human rights organization member, as marine awe ovsenokova. here is how it played out on live television before millions of russian viewers. [ speaking foreign language ] >> so she's a producer at the station. she was identified by the human rights organization. the broadcast, as you saw, abruptly cut away to another scene. the sign read "no war, don't believe the propaganda, they're lying to you." before storming the set the protester released a video saying in part what is going on in ukraine is a crime, unfortunately i have been working at channel one during recent years, working on kremlin propaganda, and now i am very ashamed. osenakova ended her message by

telling her fellow russians, quote, it is only in our power to stop this madness, take to the streets, do not be afraid, they can't jail us all. a russian human rights lawyer says the woman has since been detained. she could face up to 15 years behind bars under a new crackdown on protests. julia ioffe, what audience was she reaching there. >> i think she was trying to reach the people who watch channel one. channel one is the kremlin's flagship. it is 100% owned by the kremlin. it is the first channel that vladimir putin went after when he became president, and the people who watch this channel for the most part trust kremlin tv and the government and government media as a source of information. for the most part those viewers support this war, or what they think is happening in the war in ukraine.

so i think she was trying to speak to the people who watch and support the war and trying to tell them what you are seeing, what you are hearing on this channel is not true and you should not support this war. >> do you think that things are different enough in russia where she could have had an impact, and what do you think will be happening to her? >> i don't know how much of an impact she had because, you know, they quickly cut away to another scene. it wasn't picked up by other russian state media obviously, and when it was the sign was blurred out, she was blurred out. as we now know this morning, well, it sounds like there are reports coming out of moscow, although she has not been found by her lawyer, she has been apparently charged at the maximum rate under this new law. so the punishments under the new law range from a fine to 15 years in jail, and it seems like

the state is going with the most heavy-handed punishment and approach, probably to scare off copy cats and to make sure that this is a one-off and that you don't have the staff of the russian state propaganda machine turning against the machine and not doing its bidding. >> julia, unfortunately for vladimir putin in his mind, this is not 1975, this is not 1983. obviously we have had a revolution, an information technology revolution over the past 25, 30 years. information is still getting in and out of russia despite his best efforts. what can you tell us based on your contacts, based on your reporting? how much information is getting to the russian people right now despite independent stations being shut down, the independent newspapers being shut down?

>> so this is a tricky one. yes, there is more information getting in. yes, we have the internet and all kinds of information technology. so there are russians who are getting the real news, who are getting the real story about what their military is doing in ukraine, which is, of course, very different than what her former employer is telling people. but you have to go to extra steps. you have to put in some effort to seek this information out. you have to download and use a vpn which masks your location and allows you to access sites, for example, banned by the russian state and blocked by the russian state media watchdog. to go on social media sites that are blocked by the russian government. so the people who are going to those lengths to find this information are people who already want to find it, who

already are not putin supporters, who are not supporters of this war, who have been critical of this government for a long time. so it is not -- i don't know how much it is reaching people who want -- who need to be reached by this, if that makes sense. these populations are still pretty siloed from each other. what i'm hearing from friends still in russia, people want to believe what they're hearing on russian tv. in some ways it mirrors what we saw during the trump years and even now where you have people in one family, for example, one is getting real information and one is watching fox news and they can't understand each other. >> julia, it sounds though when you are talking about people getting separate vpn addresses, it sounds like we are talking about a generational, maybe a

generational split, that even apolitical young people that want to get on instagram or want to see what is happening with the rest of the world will be able to get on a laptop and do that in about three minutes, right? >> yes, that's right. several polls we have seen indicated that, it is mostly a generational split, both in terms of ability to use new technology and to use the internet to find information and because the young russian people exist in a kind of separate informational sphere from their elders. and then the older generation who mostly watches tv, and tv in russia is 100% state owned, so it is giving them what the kremlin wants them to see and it

is people who lived under the soviet union and who remember when ukraine was all part of one big country with russia whereas young people are used to thinking of ukraine as a separate, independent country that has nothing to do with russia. so there's also a generational split there. >> hey, brian. it is jonathan lemire. we just heard from the general in terms of how poorly the war is going from russia. we just heard from julia about the increasingly successful efforts, at least to some degree, for information to get through in moscow. so putin is facing struggles, both at home and the battlefield. so i want to get your take on him and what might be next. is there perhaps some sort of off ramp, some sort of victory he can claim to wind this down, or do you think he is committed all in? and if he -- his future, how does the rest of the world reengage with him and russia whenever this conflict might end or are they now going forward as

long as he's in charge cuba or north korea? >> well, i think the first thing is we need to dispel the myth of what donald trump called the savvy genius strongman. this is not a savvy genius. he's not behaving like a savvy genius. he is irrational and he is behaving irrationally because he has fallen into what i call the dictator trap, which is because to stay in power dictators do things that ultimately cause their downfall because they construct fake realities and they make mistakes based on the fake realities. you think of what vladimir putin gets in terms of information, he has been in power for two decades. people who cross him, their families may fall off balconies. that's a dangerous position to be in. i think the real question you pose is what is next. i think there will be a pariah status for russia for the foreseeable future, and i hope it is the case. i think it is important that the

oligarchs around putin know it is not a temporary change, that it is genuinely the new wave of the future, they will be isolated, they will not be sailing their yachts around the mediterranean, they will not be stashing their case, buying up property in london. as soon as their lives become more russian, i think that provides the end game in which vladimir putin can be forced out of power for people who greased the wheels for him for the last two decades. >> i want to take a question of him. brian, this is david ignatius. i'm curious whether you see any cracks in the inner circle around putin. i don't mean the oligarchs who depend on him for patronage, but i mean the security services that really shield his regime. do you see any evidence that those people who do have the power to make changes in russia are moving toward action? >> i don't see evidence, but that doesn't mean it doesn't

exist. the reason for that is because these things often convey themselves in tipping points. so once somebody moves against a dictator it is an extremely risky thing to do on their own. once there's an environment in which multiple people think, we can do it, that's when it moves quickly. when you predict things like the arab spring, nobody thought he would face collapse in 2010, but in days he did. even though we don't have evidence of this, there are people around putin, not just the oligarch, who understand it is a geopolitical shift and a generational shift. the more they understand that their fates are intertwined with vladimir putin the more they're going to push him to end the war, and i think that has to be the game plan. the informational space is crucial here, too because it is something where vladimir putin is going to continue to miscalculate. he has constructed a fake reality around himself, he surrounded himself with people who don't criticize him because of fear, and he doesn't actually understand i think what is going on. so you have to deal very

carefully with the understanding that this is not a fully rational man you are dealing with and, therefore, you know, when we look for signals he may be on the way out eventually, i think it may be optimistic in the short run. but it will happen quickly, not in a slow burn with lots and lots of signs before everyone moves against him. >> so, brian, i'm curious. i want to get your take on something, sort of a clarifying moment in the united states and the west that this war has provided. you know, when general mccaffrey was risking his life for this country, when he was fighting across the world and defending america and all that we stood for, he had to deal with useful idiots from the left that tried to preach a moral equivalency between the soviet union and the united states of america, between mao and the united states of america.

now, general mccaffrey and others are having to deal with useful idiots from the right. in one of the shocking things i have seen some of the useful idiots on the right actually didn't parrot russian disinformation on ukrainian biological labs. they actually were on the cutting-edge. i read it first from a useful idiot here and then a week later i heard the same thing coming out of the mouth of a russian general which, of course, was a tip of the hat to -- for us to expect future chemical weapons. in fact, i'm just curious, with all of your studying about authoritarianism and the fact that, unfortunately, too many people in this country actually are attracted to putin-style authoritarianism, what is your reaction to what you have seen?

>> well, i think we have two different struggles that are highly linked. there's a domestic struggle between democracy and authoritarianism and there's a geopolitical struggle globally between democracy and authoritarianism and we need to decide right now to be on the right side of both of nose fights because they're linked. those seeking to overturn elections in the united states are willing to provide excuses for vladimir putin. i think this is something where the geopolitical moment has come, we have to decide. you know, there are a lot of people in the united states who long thought, oh, perhaps we can accommodate vladimir putin, perhaps we can accommodate china. i think it is time to decide whether we stand with democracies or stand with dictatorships. the longer you stand with dictatorships the more they're able to burn you later. i think it is something people are finding out the hard way. i have been arguing this for the last many, many years. i think it is something where there's a wake-up call that happened in ukraine and i hope the wake-up call goes beyond the borders of ukraine and starts to actually change things in the

rest of the world and how america relates to authoritarian despots, not just abroad but also those who would be tyrants at home. >> general mccaffrey, what does the united states, what does nato, what does the western world do if putin crosses a red line and uses chemical weapons on the people of kyiv or the people of ukraine generally? >> well, you know, chemical weapons are a lousy way to attack the u.s. armed forces. we can operate in a chemical environment with barely diminished effectiveness. we have early warning equipment, protective garb, we know how to deal medical with the consequences of it. against a civilian population, particularly in a concentrated urban area, it would be devastating. we watched the russians and assad do it in syria, chlorine

gas or a poorly manufactured nerve agent. i think it would probably so horrify europe in particular that nato would enter the war. look, on an associated point though, control of the airspace over ukraine is what president zelenskyy really needs, not an ambiguous no-fly zone, humanitarian corridors, this kind of nonsense. can he get from nato, not just the u.s., maybe the brits, the french and the u.s. operating independently of nato, can he get them to act and close down russian air power and cruise missiles? it is complicated, but the strike on the military camp near poland was cruise missiles fired off russian bombers inside russia. a lot of the fire in the kyiv area is coming, being fired out of belarus. the s-400 anti-aircraft system, most of it, 400 kilometer range,

is in russia. ground-to-air defense units with the russian forces in ukraine would engage an air cap. so it is a huge decision. it would clearly intensify a direct war with russia. that's what zelenskyy needs and i think the destruction of kyiv, the introduction of chemical weapons or bioweapons, god forbid, might be the trigger that would change the political calculus among the nato leadership. >> retired four star army general barry mccaffrey, julia ioffe and brian klaas, thank you all for being with us this morning. we want to mention brian usa new book, "corruptible: who gets power and how it changes us." good timing for that book. mover now on the oligarchs brian mentioned. australia announced it intends to sanction 33 russian oligarchs and their immediate family. spanish authorities in barcelona

temporarily seized a $153 million yacht owned by the ceo of russian state-owned defense conglomerate. in london squatters took over a mansion suspected of belonging to oleg deripaska, who is sanctioned by both the uk and the u.s. in the u.s. the justice department unsealed an indictment that charges a russian oligarch who schemed to make illegal campaign contributions to boost a marijuana business. officials say andre moraveve attempted to influence the u.s. election by tending $100 million to candidates and campaigns hoping to win favor for his cannabis business. her latest piece is entitled "what is a russian oligarch and why are they being sanctioned?"

lynette, i think we understand why they're being sanctioned. do explain the concept of a russian oligarch, if you would, and how many of them are feeling the heat at this point? >> i think that any russian oligarch needs to feel the heat right now, because what a russian oligarch really is is someone who owns vast amounts of russian wealth and who owes that ownership to vladimir putin. think of it more as a feudal government structure than a dictatorship that we would know. vladimir is on top of everything. he gets to disburse resources like oil companies, chemical companies, fertilizer, all of the wealth of russia. he gets to say who gets it, and as a result those people who get to a vast amount of wealth owe vladimir putin. you see roman abramovich on the screen right there. he has owned two different russian oil companies. he got them both in rigged

elections that were definitely going to him, no question. he owes that to vladimir putin. the second rigged election which took place in 2002 he was bidding against a chinese company, and one of the representatives from that chinese company was kidnapped immediately when they got to moscow. no bidder so the company goes to roman abramovich. you see how this works. >> so, lynette, certainly these oligarchs owe their fortunes, vast fortunes in large part to vladimir putin and they're sort of beholden to him. two part question for you. do they have any sway with him at all? how much of a chance is there that perhaps these oligarchs who we're seeing their yachts seized, their apartments taken in london and other western capitals, who are seeing their quality of life perhaps suffer, how much of a chance is they would independently or some of them banding together to try to get putin to stop? >> they can try, but putin is

increasingly not listening to anyone but putin, and that's not something that has just been going on in the last year or two years. that has been going on since the orange revolution in ukraine, that has been going on since 2014, since the taking of crimea. putin has been isolating himself. you see this also in the performance of the army. shoigu, his defense minister, is now in international circles for being kind of a big suck-up to vladimir putin and telling him that his army was prepared and that his army was modernized when in reality, you know, it is quite possible that it wasn't and shoygu was trying not to make the boss angry. it is going to take a second before all of these men realize that they need to make the boss angry. they've known for years that they were playing a very dangerous game. putin has killed oligarchs that

fell out of his favor. barovosky codikosky was sent to jail for ten years. if you don't play the way vladimir putin wants you could die. >> linette, let's talk about oil prices that were trading a bit after a big surge. a barrel now trading at $103, still 37% higher so far this year. the national average for gas seems to be holding steady over the past couple of days. a gallon costs around $4.32. still, that's up around 85 cents in just the past month. linette, what is behind the slowing oil surge? >> well, the market is trying to figure out how bad we are in this because there is an understanding, i think, among people in the economy that some

of the russian oil is going to end up in china, it is going to end up in india. how much of that is going to end up in china and india? how quickly can europe recover? how quickly can the u.s. get more oil back dispersed throughout the globe? these are questions yet unanswered, and when things looked super dire last week there were obviously major concerns, especially for the federal reserves which looks to raise interest rates this week, but now with prices going lower it seems like the market is figuring out that we are not necessarily in as bad a position as we were. you know, i would caution against looking too optimistically about anything the chinese say about helping us or to garner peace in this situation. i think they're going to try to play both sides, and one side of that is getting cheap, russian oil. >> all right. linette lopez, thank you so much

for your insight this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," a maternity hospital bombarded. missiles fired into apartment buildings and humanitarian corridors shelled. there is growing evidence that putin is committing war crimes. ahead, andrea mitchell looks at why the biden administration hasn't officially accused russia of committing those war crimes. plus, russians are bravely protesting the war in ukraine, pushing back against putin's propaganda. we'll talk about that with an advisor to president zelenskyy. and as we go to break, one of the other ways ukrainians are protecting their country by protecting their heritage. museums and galleries are racing to stash away the country's most notable art and cultural pieces, statues, stained glass windows, monuments are being covered with shrapnel-proof material.

while painting and sculptures are crammed into basement bunkers. we'll be right back with much more continued coverage. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (music throughout)

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it is 46 past the hour. a reporter for fox news is in the hospital after he was hurt covering the war in ukraine. the network says benjamin hall, who is a state department correspondent, was injured outside of kyiv. fox news ceo suzanne scott released a statement that the network is working to find out more information about his condition and what happened. scott went on to write, quote, this is a stark reminder for all journalists who are putting their lives on the line every day to deliver the news from a war zone. this comes a day after journalist and filmmaker brent renaud died when he and a colleague, juan arredondo, were shot by russian soldiers in a suburb of kyiv. arredondo survived the attack and is recovering from surgery.

vladimir putin's brutal assault on ukraine and apparent indiscriminate attack on civilians are now sparking growing allegations of war crimes. hundreds of civilians have died since the war began, many in cities under siege like mariupol where the international committee of the red cross describes the situation as apocalyptic. the biden administration has yet to officially declare those russian attacks as war crimes. joining us now nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent and host, andrea mitchell. andrea, with a look at what is holding the white house back, and a warning that some of the images we are about to see are very graphic, andrea, what can you tell us? >> this attack on journalist, also ben hall, my colleague at the state department, we are all wishing for his quick recovery. we are seeing russian attacks

injuring or killing civilians, leveling apartment buildings, most western allies, most of our allies have declared them war crimes, have asked for the international criminal court to investigate and to actually pursue war crimes, but the united states has not declared them war crimes leaving a lot of people to ask what is the reason for that. an air raid killing at least 47 people. rockets striking the center of kharkiv, and a preschool in northeastern ukraine hit with illegal cluster bombs. ukrainian civilians including children increasingly becoming the apparent target of putin's forces. as the world watches the death and destruction allegations of war crimes are growing louder, with president zelenskyy warning russia's leaders. he said, you will definitely be prosecuted for complicity in war crimes. the u.n. reports at least 636 civilians have already died

since russia invaded with the true toll to be sure to be higher, even those trying to leave finding death on the road to safety. witnesses saying russian forces are targeting civilians escaping through humanitarian corridors, including this deadly in irpin outside kyiv. under siege civilians are trapped in mariupol where russia shelled a maternity hospital killing three people, including a young girl, and now this pregnant woman and her unborn child have died. >> they shoot to signal cars trying to escape from mariupol. there is 350,000 people in mousetrap. >> reporter: russia has denied committing war crimes, instead claiming ukraine is staging attacks and killing its own people, despite all evidence to the contrary. under decades of international law war crimes are defined as intentionally directing attacks at civilians populations, or,

indiscriminately attacking civilians or civilian objects like hospitals, schools and nuclear power plants. the biden administration supports investigating and documenting potential war crimes, but the u.s. ambassador to the u.n. acknowledging bluntly what the world can see. >> they constitute war crimes. there are attacks on civilians that cannot be justified by any -- in any way whatsoever. >> reporter: the international criminal court has opened up an investigation, responding to requests from 39 countries including france and the uk, for crimes against humanity and acts of genocide. >> what we have seen already from vladimir putin's regime and the use of the munitions in my view already fully qualifies as a war crime. >> reporter: punishing putin will be difficult if not impossible. the international criminal court and the u.n. security council can take action against war criminals, but it is up to individual countries to enforce

convictions, and russia, like the u.s., does not recognize the icc's authority. russia can also veto any u.n. security council action. and the biden administration wants to avoid labeling putin a war criminal now to preserve the chance of eventing negotiating with him for an end to the war. >> so that is one of the reasons why the u.s. is so reluctant to call a spade a spade. they seem to want to preserve that deny ability for vladimir putin so that maybe there could be some fruitful negotiation down the road but it is causing consternation and our allies, especially the brits and others, our closest allies, are making it very clear these are war crimes and there needs to be accountability. >> andrea, though, again, the biden administration, others have said, you know, it's one thing for news hosts to call these acts war crimes, one thing for an opinion writer to do that, but if the united states

does that then vladimir putin is he not in a position where he sees his future as being in a cage and the hague next to milosevic so what does he have to lose? he might as well fight to the death. >> i mean, that is -- that is the distinction, you're exactly right. the point is is there anything that is going to persuade him not to fight to the death, even -- nothing is going to deter him now as isolated as he is, so that's been the conclusion, the assessment of all of our intelligence analysts. that's what we've been briefed by our allies as well. nothing is going to stop him now that he has launched this war and done it so aggressively and no amount of sanctions are going to slow him down. he has to just be driven into defeat by the extraordinary resistance of the people of ukraine. >> andrea mitchell, thank you very much for that report. joining us now, former investigative reporter and member of the ukrainian parliament sergei la shank co,

he is now working as an adviser to president zelenskyy against propaganda. thank you very much for joining us. tell us the latest from what you're hearing in terms of the russian advance and how propaganda plays a role. >> good morning, everyone. unfortunately russia used propaganda as a way to discredit ukraine on international arena and to share dee seats of law among russian citizens. for today we have few very dangerous ideas which russia propaganda trying to push forward, one of the most dangerous, i believe this is fake news about chemical and biological weapons, ukraine producing on our territory, which was denied by ukrainian, american and even russian biologists, but russian propaganda media very, very strong with its narrative, trying to push it forward, and

it sounds like the argument for them to use chemical weapons against ukraine, if they decided to use, they will use this fake news which they started to share two, three weeks ago as an excuse, saying that we prevented ukraine from using chemical weapons against the world and we used ourself used chemical weapons. this is one of the stipulations we have now in ukraine, one of the most dangerous things in this cooking book of vladimir putin. they're trying to blame ukraine in preparing of nuclear weapons, which ukraine of course cannot produce anymore since 1994, but this fake narrative that ukraine is preparing nuclear weapons was argument for russia to take control over ukrainian nuclear power stations last week. as for today they control two nuclear power stations, one of them is the biggest nuclear power station in europe and this

is a very dangerous moment. also russia propaganda is active with fake news about ukraine ians who were -- discrimination on race ground on anti-semitism on russians. they're saying, for example, some ukrainian jews from one of the cities run because of the local citizens trying to attack them, which is not true, because the jewish community in ukraine denied this, but they started to share this fake news and the news outlets unfortunately can be used as an argument not to provide support from israel. so today this fake news is, let's say, destroyed, but this cooking book of putin is full of fake news narratives. they do use dozens of fake news

every day and in current situation the information battlefield is a lot less important for putin as the real battlefield of war. >> serhiy, this is david ignatius in washington. i want to ask you what advice you're giving to president zelenskyy about how to counter this russian propaganda. he seems to be a pretty effective voice and i'm curious what you tell him as a way to stop these lies from spreading. >> first of all, our president is a real hero of the modern world and he's very, very active with the whole -- the whole world, the public opinion of the world. he makes two direct statements every day, in the morning and in the evening. also, he's very vocal with the international community. on wednesday he's going to -- he's going to have a speech with congress of united states, today he has a speech with canadian

parliament, last week it was his speech for the british parliament. so he addressed these speeches to the politicians in the world to further support of ukraine. second, he's very active to disqualify the fake news in his direct statements. his voice of truth is very important in the world. as much as he sets the record it's much less chance for propaganda to use this weapon against ukraine, propaganda of russia and to use the narratives against ukraine because the threat of chemical weapons is now clear not only for us but even for americans, state department. we heard the messages from some american officials that this fake narrative about chemical weapons can be used as an excuse for russia to do this against ukraine. so keep doing what we are doing now, to be free and fair in our communication to say what is really going on and to address

directly to the stakeholders. unfortunately it's very difficult to address the russian stakeholders, but our president as part of his speech in russian language. yesterday last he has part of his speech in russian to russian soldiers asking them to stay at home or at least not to use weapons against ukrainians and not to die in ukraine because it can be very painful for them to come to ukraine and to die here because our army is very, very much prepared -- much better prepared than it was eight years ago when they occupied part of our territory. >> that is showing former member of the ukrainian parliament, now an adviser to president zelenskyy. thank you very much for being with us this morning. still ahead, hundreds of schools in ukraine are believed to have been damaged during the russian invasion. we're going to take a look at how teachers are trying to help their students even from outside

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top of the hour. live pictures of the white house, the sun is up over washington. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, march 15th. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy made a virtual appearance at a round table of european leaders this morning in

london. he urged the british-led joint expeditionary force to, quote, help themselves by helping ukraine. zelenskyy acknowledged the aid they've provided so far, but says he needs more. he will meet with more european leaders today in kyiv, later today. the prime minister of poland, czech republic and slovenia. zelenskyy also thanked the protester who stormed the set of a russian state news broadcast to speak out against the war. he said, quote, i am grateful for those russians who do not stop trying to convey the truth. all of this as the war enters day 20. the headline in the "new york times" this morning, russian advance appears to stall despite bombardment nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the very latest from on the ground. >> reporter: the southern city of mariupol looks almost

post-apocalyptic. columns of smoke rising from dozens of fires. russia has been firing into the captive city of 400,000 like shooting at hostages. a few hundred packed cars were able to get out through humanitarian corridor. while overnight in kyiv there were more apparently random attacks, missiles fired at the city hitting a subway station. this morning here volunteers were sweeping up in the collective spirit no one called them, they just came from the neighborhood to help. this strike hit a subway station in central kyiv. the russians are no longer just picking off targets on the outskirts of the city, but now hitting the commercial and residential center of the city. up above the station is extensively damaged, but these subways were dug during soviet times to be deep in case the united states back then attacked with nuclear weapons, now this shelter is in use again and

under attack by russia. elena who used to sell cakes, she bakes at home is down on the subway platform with her daughter anna, she said she heard the explosion hit the station and all the glass falling. before we used to think how good it was to sleep in our beds she says now we just thank god to wake up in a subway car tanya says she's always sick. she's been down here for over a week. russia's attacks now hardly seem targeted at all. just lethal harassing strikes on civilians. in part, because the russians aren't getting any closer. ukrainian resistance has slowed down russia's advance to a near halt. the killer convoy outside of kyiv is stuck dead by the road, no fuel. a senior u.s. military official tells nbc news russia's advance is disorganized, poorly coordinated and that weapon systems are failing because of operator error.

president zelenskyy speaking in russian, called for the russian people to rise up, beware of the russian army on its back foot. while troops haven't advancing russia is relying on long range artillery, rockets and missiles to rain fire on kharkiv. >> joe, your column has gotten response from around the world we've heard from people, it's entitled "the war in ukraine is moving into a new phase: biden and the west had better get ready." you write in part over the past month in response to russia's invasion of ukraine president biden has assembled the most impressive coalition since president george h.w. bush's skillful diplomatic efforts preceding the gulf war. biden has united a fractured

nato alliance and europeans have responded more forcefully than vladimir putin could have ever imagined, but putin's war against ukraine is entering a dangerous new phase. events are moving rapidly and it's time for biden and his western allies to adjust. russian forces could be preparing to use chemical weapons. if putin crosses that moral red line, the political pressure to respond will be overwhelming. biden and his allies need to prepare for that now in three ways, number one, stop playing defense, biden should stop telling putin what he will not do, stop alerting him to what weapons he will not send, stop saying what strategies he will not employ and stop declaring where u.s. troops will not deploy. it is also time for nato to stop being reactive to putin's ever changing definition of what constitutes an act of war. two, be disruptive.

biden should change the dynamic by employing his own disruptive tactics. the united states should move expeditiously to have the u.n. general assembly create humanitarian safe zones in ukraine that allow civilians to escape slaughter. putin would be assured that the zones would not be used for military purposes, however, any force targeting civilians there would immediately become a target of u.n. peacekeepers or even nato. while such a plan would likely cause deep discomfort inside the biden white house, policymakers in the west may not be able to avoid such decisions for long. the only question is whether they make the move at the united nations before or after putin deploys chemical weapons. three, guard your words. while cable hosts and opinion columnists are free to call the russian tyrant a war criminal, u.s. ambassadors to the united nations should be more prudent. if putin believes his future

inside a cage at the hague, he will have no incentive to end this war. the same holds true for senior u.s. senators calling for regime change, providing russia's nuclear-armed president an off-ramp from the military catastrophe he created remains the best hope for the people of ukraine and the world. and, joe, i mean, these are dicey, dicey decisions, but we are at a -- we are at a crossroads. >> we really are. i was reminded looking at the situation over the past several weeks of winston churchill when he gave his finest hour speech in june of 1940. he had spent his first month as prime minister doing everything he could do to save france, that was a remarkable month, may of 1940, but he had to go june 18th of 1940, he had to go to the

house of commons and he said the battle of france is over, i fear that the battle of britain is about to begin. david ignatius, i think we can look at the first three weeks of this war and say the same, that we are entering another phase. the first phase the president and western allies did a remarkable job, but let's look at the difference in just 20 days. 20 days ago only one in four americans wanted the united states to be actively involved in helping the ukrainians. today over 75% of americans want us to support a no fly zone, something that i actually think may be too much. and you had foreign leaders, you had european leaders dragging their feet, being reluctant to cross vladimir putin and russia 20 days ago. that obviously has changed radically. my belief is it gives joe biden, gives western leaders a little

more space to move more aggressively. don't be quite so prudent with their words. keep vladimir putin guessing. david, i think the most important thing is this, you know, there's old -- you and i are probably the only people who remember this, there was that old midas ad, you can pay me now or you can pay me later. joe biden and western leaders can confront this problem now or they can confront it later after the chemical weapons are used, after kyiv is leveled and when the pressure for the united states and the west to stay out of ukraine is just too overwhelming politically. that day is going to come, the question is do we see around the curve or do we wait for putin, again, to continue defining the contours of this war? >> well, i love that midas ad, like you. i don't think that putin is defining the contours of this war, that's the interesting fact. the contours are being defined

by ukrainian president zelenskyy, by nato, which has held fast, and by the united states which has been restrained, but has been vigorous behind the scenes in supplying the ukrainians the weapons that they need. my own feeling, i thought your piece in the post this morning was excellent -- my own feeling that we should begin by sticking with the things that have worked. what's worked for the u.s., ukraine, the western coalition. first our extraordinary intelligence. we are reading every piece of putin's mail. i've never seen intelligence performance at this level. stick with that. use it. use it to inform, to undermine putin's bases at home. second, we are supplying lots of weapons that are doing real damage to the ukrainian military. we need to continue that, step it up, add additional weapons that are even more powerful.

they need them as i've said on the show earlier, i was lucky enough to see that weapons transfer process near the ukrainian border last week. it's powerful. and it needs to keep going. and i think the search as you say at the end of your piece for an off-ramp, an off-ramp that is not in any way a surrender. i mean, the way to get peace is to keep pouring it on, keep pressure on putin, putin will come to the table if this is unsustainable. keep doing what works, as you say, with he may be entering a new phase but the foundation of what we do in the new phase ought to be the stuff that's been working so well for the united states and its allies. >> and as we consider the potential of looking for new options because we've been dealing with putin for a long time, let's bring in u.s. national editor at "the financial times" ed luce and ian

brzezinski. thank you both for joining us. ian, you know, what are some of the options on the table? joe was looking at really maybe perhaps considering preempting the use of chemical weapons and other dramatically heinous crimes that putin might commit. what are your thoughts on that? >> well, thanks, mika. good morning, mika and joe. we are approaching a new phase in the conflict, putin is getting more frustrated. his frustration is probably not going to get him to back off, it's going to lead him to escalate the carnage he is imposing on ukraine. he has another 700,000 troops back in his homeland that he can apply and as joe points out we need to get ahead of the game and start controlling dynamics of this conflict. i agree with david, we need to provide more weapons and i would emphasize uavs, i'd emphasize

better air defense systems but also coastal batteries because putin is preparing for naval assault on odesa, we should get anti-ship missiles down there asap. more economic sanctions, we are holding back, it should be full board, across the board, trade and financial embargo. i agree with joe, we need to do more to secure parts of ukraine that are largely uncontested. this is nonconfrontational, it is -- it is an action that will help preserve ukraine in the long run, it will demonstrate western resolve and it's not as extreme as other measures that are out there in the escalatory ladder, it's not involving directly engaging russian forces, it's not talking about an arizona cross ukraine. just over the areas that's least contested. this will help ensure that we minimize the humanitarian catastrophe that putin is imposing, it will ensure that we have a ukrainian state in the longer phase of this conflict and it will ensure that we are

not allowing russian force toss move closer to nato's borders. >> as ambassador james jeffrey noted in the defense one article, it worked in syria, it could work here. i do wonder, ed, about what the reaction is in europe, what the reaction is in britain, katty kay was talking about how visceral this was for so many people whose parents or grandparents survived hitler's blitz across all of europe. how much pressure are there on european politicians to do more to help the ukrainians? >> i think this is in my lifetime a unique moment in terms of european unity. perhaps 1989. so there is acute pressure, it is coming from the grassroots. the populists are the feelings

when a yacht is sequestered or a grand mansion in kensington or may fair gets taken over by squatters is huge and that, i think, is indicative of just how strongly people feel. we are talking about people here, you know, who don't read the financial times or watch "morning joe," we are talking about people in football stadiums who are waving the ukrainian flag. it's a very, very strong feeling. bear in mind we now have got almost 3 million ukrainian refugees flooding into europe. most of them have been taken by poland, but more and more are going to other parts of europe and so far the response is for people to welcome them at train stations, for families to take ukrainian families in. there is this feeling of solidarity that i think is politically incredibly potent in europe right now and i see no signs of that flagging. one other point in that regard is that germany, as you know, has been sort of the main buyer

of russian gas and oil for decades, through the cold war as well. majority of public opinion now wants an embargo completely. so we quite rightly celebrate volodymyr zelenskyy as the sort of unexpected leader of this situation, but another is olaf scholz, the german chancellor, who has done a u-turn in german foreign policy and has the wind of the german people at his back. this is an extraordinary moment. >> it is an extraordinary moment, ed. i'm so glad you brought up the chancellor because as shocking as zelenskyy's performance has been, as inspiring as it has been, i must say the german chancellor's performance is almost as surprising. nobody expected this. so many feared the departure of angela merkel, but -- but both

he and the german people have completely transformed and, again, we've seen nothing like this from germany in our lifetime. >> who would have thought just a few days ago even that the leaders of poland, the czech republic and slovakia would be taking a train to kyiv, and given the history of bad relations between poland and the rest of the eu, that they would be going with the unanimous backing, good wishes and support to kyiv to see zelenskyy on behalf of all of europe. this is, you know, a really dramatic sort of gesture on their part and they're doing so on behalf of all of europe and the uk, i should add. talk of brexit and all of that stuff has kind of fallen by the wayside because the uk and the eu are cooperating very, very closely.

>> ian, i want to ask you if you would speak a little further about your comments amplifying joe's article this morning in the "washington post." you said two things that really struck me, one was the use of anti-ship missiles, russians have been enormous success coming from the south, anti-ship missiles would change that equation. talk a little bit about that and about the potential risks of doing that. and second, you made a very interesting comment in effect about creating safe havens inside ukraine so we don't have to go to poland or romania where you would have a greater on nat countries that would trigger article 5 complications. talk about those two elements of going forward. >> david, the case for coastal batteries or anti-ship missiles is driven by the fact that when you look at the initial attacks on mariupol and in the cities and the region around the sea of

azov there were russian marine assaults on the beaches there. the russians are posturing to take odesa which my brother was emphasized who was ambassador to poland that odesa is one of the key targets that putin is honing in on. so they're massing forces from the east of odesa, the north of odesa from where russia had the sixth army and they have naval forces off the coast positioning to assault odesa. now is the time to get to the coast along odesa, capabilities to defend that city. probably one of the most effective ways to prevent a naval assault are anti-ship missiles and there are systems like the naval strike system that the norwegians have developed which are like truck-mounted anti-ship missiles, they could be moved quickly down to odesa, deployed and they could have a devastating effect on russia's maritime presence off the coast of the city. >> and similarly safe havens inside the country that would have some protection that we

would provide to the ukrainians to keep them safe. that would be another element of sustaining this remarkable resistance. >> yeah, i think it would be a move in which we would, as joe puts it, start taking the initiative and start shaping and controlling dynamics of this conflict instead of just react to go what putin does. creating safe havens, deployment of western forces would be to go into an area that's largely uncontested so you are not going in and attacking russian forces, you are going in under the guise of responsibility to protect under humanitarian objectives, protect the people, that's completely legitimate. it would be at the request of the ukrainians. you would position yourselves and you would create a safe haven over there. it would be the right -- the morally right thing to do as russia is moving into a phase where it's going to impose a devastating consequences upon the ukrainian people. think of the lives that are going to be lost as he continues to bulldoze through these cities, think of the people who are going to be displaced. it will also be a demonstration

of resolve on the part of the west. are there escalatory risks? yes. you can't ignore them. but i think they're manageable. from what i can observe based on the performance of the russian military in ukraine today, the ukrainian -- the russian military is not prepared and does not want to take on nato. it doesn't have the wherewithal and capacity to be effective against that. people who are worried about the third world war, my sense is that putin is a rational actor, he doesn't want to be exploding nuclear weapons on his border. that's not to his interest. so this is a reasonable move that allows us to take back control dynamics of the conflict, do the right moral thing to defend the people that are being besieged and position this conflict in the way that it will most likely sustain ukrainian state and facilitate eventually russia's eventual removal from the country. it will enable ukraine to do more against where the russians are concentrating their forces. >> and this morning we've been telling you about a remarkable

scene that played out on russian television, an anti-war protester interrupting russia's main news broadcast urging viewers not to believe the station's propaganda. she has now been detained. nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson has the details. >> reporter: it happened monday during russia's main evening news broadcast. with millions watching a protester holding a sign that read no war showed up suddenly behind the news reader interrupting the newscast telling viewers in russian not to believe the station's propaganda. the short on camera protest happening on the widely watched russian state-owned network channel one. the woman was identified as marina, according to ovd info an independent russian human rights group which says she was detained after the protest. it's not clear where she is now. she appears to be the same woman in this pre-recorded statement released by the same group

before the on-air protest. the woman saying in part she's ashamed that she was allowed to tell lies from the television screen, wearing a blue and yellow necklace to represent the ukrainian flag the woman in the video says her father is ukrainian and her mother is russian. she called russia aggressor and asked fellow russians to join anti-war protests to end the conflict. only we have the power to stop all this madness, the woman said. go to the protests. don't be afraid of anything. they can't imprison us all. youkian president zelenskyy responding to the on air protest in a message saying i'm thankful to those russians who don't stop trying to deliver the truth, who are fighting against disinformation and personally to that woman who went in the studio of channel one with an anti-war poster, former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul calling it unprecedented. >> this is not supposed to happen in authoritarian regimes. >> reporter: earlier this month

the kremlin made it a crime for people to spread what it called fake news. the punishment, up to 15 years in prison. >> i think it sends a very inspirational signal that there are people willing to risk years in jail to try to stop putin's war inside russia. >>. and a new development this morning, the united nations human rights office called on russian authorities to make sure that the anti-war protester, the one who interrupted channel one television, is not punished for exercising free speech. let's bring in moscow bureau chief at the financial times max sedan. explain how rare a protest like that in russia is. what happened and what potentially is her fate? >> well, [ inaudible ] -- >> okay. we're going to try and get max's audio fixed. it's not working quite well.

>> let's go to ed. ed, give us the story. >> sorry, i was waiting to hear from max who is a brilliant correspondent, but which particular story to you want me to give? >> well, i thought that perhaps since you and max work at the same place, maybe you had read max's article. >> i read many, many articles by him and i recommend them all. >> we heard from the ambassador, ambassador mcfaul, that this is so rare, this happens to rarely in moscow. i do wonder, ed, what the impact this may have. i also do wonder about the fact that vladimir putin who of course has dreams of bringing the old soviet union back together or at least the greater russia back together still may not realize he's in 2022 and not

1982. >> look, i mean, i think these kind of protests are rare precisely because the sanctions on people who make them are so extreme. max -- you know, max is not in moscow right now, he is a fluent russian speaker, he is a brilliant journalist because the security of journalists in moscow is just so precarious. for russian citizens to protest on the streets as we've seen from some of the transcripts leaked of interrogations of arrested protesters, can involve torture, women being stripped naked, beaten up. we've seen 15 years is now the -- she had 15 seconds on tv, it's likely she's going to get 15 years in jail as the price to pay for that. so the cost of this kind of protest is immense, it's unthinkable in the west and so i

think the courage is extreme. our expectation the russian people are going to rise up and overthrow putin should be limited by the knowledge of just what a risk people are taking when they do -- when they do bold things like that. >> right. it is extraordinary, though, as zelenskyy said, the united nations also making a statement. let's bring max back in. let's see if we have him now. max, talk about how rare it is and why it is so rare this happening, despite the fact many more russians are being arrested now for protesting than we've seen in quite some time. >> marina is not a person who you would normally expect to see making any kind of protest. you saw working in state media who are people telling a completely -- and what we've seen here in recent weeks is the

only state media employee who seems to be really disgusted by what's going on in ukraine, an anchor for a major state news channel announce this had morning that she quit because some people said they fled russia today because of the war, both the russian staff and some of the westerners. that seems to indicate that beyond the usual support base for the russian opposition, people you would expect to be against the war, this is having a broader impact on more russian people including those who work for the state and even state tv. that's something that's pretty new. >> max, what's important here is what she was doing was reaching people who watch russian state tv. those are possibly the older generation, those who don't really, you know, have access or use their iphones to reach out on social media, who are really

in that bubble where they're only getting their information from putin on down. so she's reaching an audience that perhaps is not as aware as the rest of russia as to what is going on in the world. >> something like four out of five russian people get their news primarily from state television, which is presenting a completely different picture of the war. they're not even seeing all the places that russia is fighting, they're told it is just a limited operation in eastern ukraine. that message is pretty effective on people that live in these news bubbles because most people in russia they don't use twitter, they are not following news closely on telegram, they don't read the foreign media and it's even harder for them to do that now because so many source of information have been banned and they don't know how to use vpn networks. so what that means is that still if you look at the sociology

that's out, it looks like that the war is still broadly popular, especially among all the people who are the base of the state tv audience. the idea is that i think it's a long way before you're going to see some sort of uprising, but the idea is that there are some cracks that you can make through protests like this or there is this big effort in ukraine to send emails, even phone calls to random russian people and ukrainians are just phoning them up and telling them what russia is doing in ukraine and trying to change their mind. mostly they get told to stick it by russians, but some ukrainians said this is effective. it is a very, very long way before we see any sort of uprising, that there's going to be some sort of sea change to popular opinion, but this incident on channel one last night shows you that there absolutely are cracks. how big those cracks become and what comes through them that's

still to be seen. >> moscow bureau chief at "the financial times" max, thank you for being with us. david, it bears repeating what julia said earlier on the show, that is that a lot of the older russians feel the same way vladimir putin does. they're still mourning the loss of the soviet empire, they still consider ukraine to be a part of greater russia, they know their russian history and as ian was bringing up earlier they look at odesa, they look at kyiv as being part of greater russia. >> you know, joe, as we learned during the vietnam war, if the younger part of the population radically disagrees with the leader, all the support you can get, and lyndon johnson had from older americans, older voters, doesn't allow you to hold policy

in line. that image of that woman on russian state tv is one people don't forget. it's reminded me of the lone figure in tiananmen square standing in front of the tank. what an act of courage by that first person who dares to do it. you remember that image, the image spreads, more people take it up. in the end the tiananmen protest was crushed and these protests in russia may be crushed, but i would -- i would bet there will be more of them. that there will be people who see that and want to be like that woman and over time older russians watching tv will be changed by what they're seeing, too. >> ian, before we go, tell us, what do you expect from the white house and nato today? what should they do? >> i'm hoping that when nato defense leaders meet today and

tomorrow and when president biden if he goes to europe has his meetings i hope they will be discussing the establishment of a no conflict zone, talk about how to further escalate economic sanctions to a total level, total embargo and i hope they will be doing more to direct and push more military equipment into ukraine. nato needs to start taking control of dynamics of this conflict and these two meetings provide an opportunity to shift into a strategy, the west strategy into that direction. what's what i'm hoping. >> ed luce, i ask you the same question what do you expect today? what do you expect over the next week? >> i think the pressure on europe to move to a much more severe embargo of russian oil and gas over and above this plan to reduce their reliance by two-thirds over the next year is very high up on the agenda but

after jay sullivan's meeting yesterday with his chinese counterpart which seemed to be a very, very tense meeting in which to put it mildly there wasn't a meeting of minds, i think the focus on how to pressure and encourage china, carrot and stick approach, to play a more constructive role and not to repeat russian propaganda about bio labs, bio war labs, is going to be some discussion, all of them will be having on the sidelines. >> all right. edluce, ian brzezinski, thank you for joining us this morning. still ahead, the war in ukraine has not stopped teachers from reaching their students. we will have a look at their remarkable resolve to educate from inside a war zone. and as we go to break, a snapshot of daily life in ukraine.

where soldiers now share a seat at the coffee shop, sandbags protect apartment buildings from the blow-back of bombs, and the colors blue and yellow paint a vibrant picture of persistence in the face of unspeakable pain. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. n. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. trelegy for copd. [coughing] ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪ ♪ breeze driftin' on by... ♪ if you've been playing down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, it's a new day,... ♪ ...it's time to make a stand. start a new day with trelegy. ♪...and i'm feelin' good. ♪ no once-daily copd medicine... has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. it also helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition

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it's 40 past the hour. as millions of ukrainian children flee the only home they've ever known, their teachers are doing everything they can to keep classrooms going from afar and providing more to their students than just a lesson plan. joining us now nbc news correspondent molly hunter, live from lviv, ukraine. molly? >> reporter: mika, good morning. that's right, the lives of so many ukrainian children have been upended, destroyed in the last three weeks.

new numbers from the u.n. today, 1.5 million children have fled this country, that's about one child every single second if you can believe it. teachers like they always do are answering the calls of their students, no matter where they live. take a look. there are many ways to fight and across ukraine teachers are galvanizing their own kind of war effort. when did you and your other teachers decide, okay, we need to get the kids back into learning? >> we just understood that we had a lot of energy to do something for the world just like to be involved in a common victory, you know? >> reporter: 23-year-old teacher from kyiv says the harsh realities won't stop her from blinking art and ukrainian language to her young students. >> today a few of my kids during the lesson they just went to the window and told me, oh, sorry, we have to go to a shelter. it's not normal lesson. it's not normal. >> reporter: according to a ukrainian government estimate,

379 schools have been damaged during the invasion, 59 completely destroyed by bombing and shelling. nbc's matt bradley visited a high school that was destroyed earlier this month, no children were inside. this teacher has taught there for 27 years. where will you go now? where will you teach now? >> reporter: she says, i will stay, i will protect my children. alaina a middle school ukrainian language teacher seen before the war is staying in the capital. i cannot serve in the army, she says, but i can teach students. and 5,000 miles away this dance teacher is doing her part, too. she is in chicago but her students are in ukraine. >> if they can just forget about the reality for 45 minutes, that's what we're going to do. >> reporter: she was born in ukraine and moved to the u.s. when she was four.

she's helped teach at least five sessions so far and will keep it going so long as kids keep showing up. >> if you wouldn't know what situation that they were in you would never ever believe it. that's the resilience of ukrainian kids to be able to show up and participate and dance and smile. they bring us laughter all the time. >> reporter: now, that teacher in kyiv says she meets with her children, her students every night on telegram and the other young teacher says she's not really focusing on her traditional curriculum, she's actually bringing in media literacy training even for her youngest students to help understand critically thinking to make sense of all of the information they're getting. >> that's amazing. nbc's molly hunter, thank you very much for that report. and still ahead, new insight into why vladimir putin is risking it all with his pointless war. what his own writings reveal to us about his twisted world view.

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mark the date on your calendar, deborah, this is the 10th of november, 1989, it is the beginning, it appears, of a new age, not only in europe, but throughout the world. this is the day that the cold war ended not with a bang but with a street party throughout east and west berlin. back in 1989 while much of the world was celebrating the fall of the berlin wall, a high-ranking kgb officer was burning documents and mourning the collapse of the soviet union. about ten years later that man, vladimir putin, would become the president of russia and our next guest says that moment in 1989 helps explain putin's decision to invade ukraine today. joining us now is pulitzer prize winning book critic at the "washington post" carlos losada,

he's been annualizing decades of vladimir putin's writings and speeches and discussed it in a new piece titled "how to read vladimir putin." i will start with what i think is the most chilling part of this looking through your notes. vladimir putin's motives can be gleaned in part from his book and his frequent essays and major speeches, all seething with resentment. this is really about challenging the united states and nato. it's about us. >> one thing that comes up a lot in his writings is his fixation on russian decline, something he fears and denies and romanced all at the same time. this is throughout his rhetoric everything is life and death for russia. this explains his fears of nato expansion, but it was there long before that. just before taking over the presidency in late 1999, he

published an essay where he was writing about his fears that russia would slip into third-tier status in the world, and the way to avoid that is to wield power. he talks about the paralysis power, the reason that the soviet union lost the cold war. as much as ideology or economics. the soviets blinked and the americans took advantage, and he doesn't want that to happen again. >> so, the soviets, of course, were driven by resentment and an obsession of the united states, the obsession that they were constantly in an inferior role in that relationship, that bipolar relationship. what separates putin from let's just say run-of-the-mill historical russian resentment and a need to expand the russian empire? >> i think what we see with

putin is that, you know, he feels that what the soviet union lacked that he has is this the confidence and determination and the undeterability to move forward. he talks a lot about his military prowess and efforts. for instance, he refers to the brutal crackdown in chechnya in the late '90s, he says, look, if you become jittery, your enemies will think they're stronger. he writes only one thing works in circumstances, you must go on the offense and hit so hard that your opponent will not rise to his feet. he talks in similar terms about world war ii. he says, look, mistakes happen in wartime, but if you worry about your mistakes you'll never win. you have to be pragmatic and you have to keep moving. people talk about an offering

for putin. just through his writings, there's very little to suggest that he would be open to any negotiated settlement that leaves him looking weak because that perception of strength is a big part of what keeps him in power. >> here's sort of what you write in the piece and i think is absolutely fascinating and says so much. "putin recounts a time he was driving a car with a judo coach during his university days and saw a truck loaded with hay coming in the other direction. putin reached out his window to grab some hay as he drove past, and veered off course consistently. only when they reached their destination did his astonished coach finally speak. you take risks, he said, and walked away. what drew me to that truck, putin later wonders, it must have been the sweet smell of the hay. message -- putin take what is he wants, regardless of the dangers

to himself or others. yet another story from putin's childhood places him in a less-daring light. there were rats in the apartment building where his family lived. putin and his friends would chase them with sticks. one day he spotted a large rat and trapped it in a corner, but then it suddenly turned and jumped toward him. i was surprised and frightened, putin recalls, now the rat was chasing me. it jumped across the landing and down the stairs. luckily, i was a little faster and i managed to slam the door shut in its nose. what's the message here? that when putin thinks he's beaten a weaker foe, all it takes is his rival lashing out to get him to run away." so, he sounds very kind of -- there's not a lot of depth perception in his thinking. he takes what he wants, but if he's frightened, he runs. >> there are several stories in

his books and in -- in his book "first person" from 2000 that give you some sense of what he's like in moments of crisis and difficulty. of course, a lot of this is propaganda. it's hard to know, you know, what to take seriously, especially when you're dealing with a former kgb officer. but one message he seems to convey in the stories he tells, he has a lowered sense of risk. that's something that one of his instructors wrote in evaluation about him. it wasn't a good thing. it wasn't an asset. he likes to convey that notion that he doesn't fear risk in the same way as others do. and so i think that the story of him chasing the rat was one unusual case where he sort of admits that he, at least as child, he turned tail and ran. i don't think that's the message he's trying to convey now.

you mentioned early on how he had been in dresden, east germany, during the fall of the berlin wall. you know, he tried to get military backup because there were crowds approaching his building. and when he called, they said to him, look, we can do nothing without orders from moscow, and moscow is silent. in that moment, he felt that his country had this fear. and i think a lot of what he's trying to do now is make sure that moscow is never silent again. >> carlos, you mentioned world war ii, talked about him as a child, his family was caught in the siege of leningrad, his father was injured, his younger brother died.w has that impacte? >> his as well. he brings it up frequently. he's written essays about, you

know, anniversaries of the great patriotic war. one thing he discusses a lot is the origins of the war, which he -- you know, he points to the settlement of world war i and says, you know, germany was left in an impossible situation, you know, the west sort of brought this on itself with world war ii. and it kind of remind me of how he thinks about the end of the cold war because he thinks that what happened at this moment was an unfair, impossible settlement for russia. he gave a famous speech in munich in 2007 where he cited the world that came out of the end of the cold war was just unacceptable to russia and was impossible. russia simply didn't have to take it. russia had a tradition of an independent foreign policy and it would continue to uphold it. >> the parallels obviously

between paris 1919 and what happened in 1989, obviously burned in putin's mind. do you see anything in the writings, in his interviews and everything that you've reviewed that gives you a sense of how this may end? >> i wish. i mean, i think that we're in a situation where the possible outcomes seen unthinkable to the various sides. ukrainians have found that relinquishing their nationhood seems unthinkable to them. the possibility of a wilder conflict between nato and a nuclear-armed power is unthinkable. but for putin, backing down and punctuing the mythology of his own power, which helps keep them in charge, is also unthinkable. so our challenge is to find a thinkable way out all of all

these unthinkable scenarios. in his writings, he wants to suggest -- seems to suggest frequently that he's someone that will simply not back down. >> the piece is "how to read vladimir putin." it is really insightful. carlos lozada, thank you very much. friendships an 8, but your knee is...barely a 2? and what about your cheerfulness? or, you know...able-to-relax-edness. and how can we help you with all that? delivery in as little as 1 hour? give you new ways to give back? because at walgreens, we take care of the whole you. ♪♪ what happens if you ever need to miss work for a long period of time? why would i miss work? i don't know. you could sprain your ankle, throw out your back... get hit by a school bus.

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i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york. it is tuesday, march 15th, and this morning we are watching very carefully the ukrainian capital of kyiv. [ bombing ] intense shelling and artillery strikes echoing throughout the city overnight. and daylight showing the extent of the destruction not just on the outskirts but in the heart of the city now where missiles and