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three million people that defied they would fall to russian force wnz dade. they now held for 20 days. that is despite increasingly dire and brutal conditions and the past few days a wave of deadly missile strikes targeting civilian areas in heart of that city. overnight, another apartment building was hit by a russian missile and a major subway station. the city's mayor announced a curfew set to last until thursday morning citing a difficult and dangerous moment in the war. the mayor is urging people to stay at home or head to bomb shelters. his city remains defiant. watch. >> the spirit right now, everyone is angry. i talked to the people. they don't want to leave. in this activity, it is much more energy to everyone and everyone understands. don't want to leave. we want to defend.

>> in the tag of russian attacks, maybe part of the reason behind the shift in russian tactics. richard engel is at that subway station struck by a missile early thursday. here is his reporting. >> reporter: in one sense this shows that russia is expanding its attacks. hitting right into the center of kyiv. you can't get a more downtown location than this one. but it is also a sign of weakness because russia's front lines have not been advancing. it's troops and armored vehicles and that long convoy outside of kyiv are where they are and have not been advancing for the last several days. instead, russia is relying more on the long range weapons, artillery and rockets to carry out attacks like this one that are generally untargeted, hit primarily civilians and are part

of a long russian campaign of attrition. >> increasingly unpredictable and dangerous attacks by russia did not deter the leaders of poland, slovenia and the czech republic from visiting kyiv today in a show of solidarity with ukraine. that comes after the e punishment posted a new round of sanctions banning investments in the energy sector as well as sanctions targeting russian oligarchs. they're remained focus on sprent presenting a united front against rush yachlt joe biden will attend a summit in brussels next week. the only path and it is a narrow path to end the war that we know of remains the talks taking place virtually between russia and ukraine. the talks resume with a top negotiator saying the two sides were discussing a possible cease-fire.

adding to the pressure on the ukrainian side to get to a deal. the rapidly deteriorating refugee crisis which hit a grim milestone today. the number of refugees fleeing tops three million people and includes 1.5 million children. that is one child every single second since the war started. fleeing their home. the head of the u.n.'s refugee agency said this war to stop now. that's where we start today. joining us now, nbc news white house correspondent. i understand this tragedy, this war certainly focused, not that the white house needed any focus or myriad of crisis, but right now this remains focused on this war and listening to president zelenskyy when they didn't deliver everything they ask for and continuing to rally the allies. will tell me what is behind this trip to brussels. >> any time a president travels

overseas, there is symbolism and substance. i'll start with the system bollism. one of the defining characters of joe biden's presidency is foreign policy specifically has been the strength in numbers of our democratic allies in the face of autocracies. he could have taken a number of steps on his own just with the united states alone in the face of what putin was doing and planning to do and ultimately d but he has gone to great lengths to include our nato allies, to include our european allies every step of the way, believing that our greatest weapon is our unanimity. this is what the biden administration feels is a successful effort to keep our allies on the same page. there is a biden inspect to this. my colleague on the white house beat has pulled together a list of more than three dozen, mostly phone calls and virtual meetings that the president held with our

allies over the course of the last three months on ukraine specifically, only handful of them in person. as jen psaki said, this is a president that believes in any person conducting business in person as much as possible. so this is an important opportunity for him to do that. now as it goes to the substance. a lot can happen between now and next week when they actually do meet in brussels and the white house is aware of that. some of the work ahead of time on very difficult decisions ahead like how to provide more military assistance, potentially air power to the ukrainians is going to be handled tomorrow as defense ministers meet first. but the president wants to do everything he can when he's in person meeting with his colleagues to try to figure out what more they can do and the reality is as this war has been playing out now for more than three weeks, the situation that they face next week may be very different than what they're facing right now. >> it is important to point out that the support for president biden's policy so far in ukraine

have garnered broad swaths of bipartisan support from elected representatives in both parties. once editorial support, "the washington post" which is quite an independent minded view on important policy embraced the biden doctrine, if you will. so far in ukraine. and public opinion polls show that while people have an impulse to do more, if it means tilting towards world war iii, the people are not willing to do that. with that stipulated, when you listen to president zelenskyy, i want to play some of what he said to canadian parliament today, how the president sort of processes for. >> imagine the committee here. >> translator: similarly as our buildings and memorial places are being bombed.

the number of families have died. every night is a horrible life. we want to leave. we want to be victorious. we prevail for the sake of life. >> i imagine joe biden would like to ask to give him everything he's asking for. but there is decades of the experience as vice president and now as president that has him walking this line. how is this affecting him personally? >> you know, nicole, some long time biden allies who i spoke with throughout this process, they remind me how they have been saying for some time that they really do believe that president biden is the man for this moment. and as he's dealing with the crisis, it's worth remembering that he came of age on the senate foreign relations committee in the 1980s, during sort of the peak of the cold war

as reagan, then president was facing off and seeing over eventually the decline of the soviet union. the coming down of the iron curtain. that's the sort of sprns that he brings to the table here and why he's been so committed in the face of so much criticism this is a white house that understand there's is always calls to do more. but this, we talked about this, nicole, so often in the context of a campaign and now it's in a much more serious global context in this war in russia that takes the long view, that crowds out the noise at the moment for what he believes is the right decision in the long term. he really does believe that one wrong step, one false move can escalate this to world war iii and he is going to avoid that at all cost. >> thank you. let's bring into our conversation, our reporter live on the ground from lviv, ukraine. i have to start with news that i think rocked us here at home. i'm sure all of you there covering it. and that is the death of a

cameraman, a fox newscam are aman and over the weekend, the loss of a journalist. tell me your reaction, reprecushions and if that is changing the way you think about incredibly dangerous work? >> hi, nicole. it shows how perilous the conditions are here in ukraine, especially on that eastern front in kyiv. and other very hard hit cities. a local ukrainian and fixer were killed by the russian forces there and obviously their correspondent was injured. he's in hospital. the fixer, sasha, was only 24 years old. you had seen posts. she put oit and wanted to connect people through the world and loved music and obviously very involved in all of this.

but they still got caught up in this merciless attacks by the russians that just haven't ended. it just shows how dangerous it is here on the ground and, of course, as you know, nicole, they're not the first journalists to be hurt in this conflict. another american journalist was killed and his colleague was injured. some of the sky crew were injured a couple weeks ago. so it is very dangerous on the ground and the russians are being indiscriminant. >> i want to show you what the ukrainians are asking for. in response to that brutality from the russians. this is the ukrainian colonel. this is your interview.

you want to throw to that for me? >> yeah. well, we went to a funeral today just here in lviv for some ukrainian soldiers that had been hit at that air base just close to the polish border. it was a very moving ceremony. everybody who was there was visibly upset what the had happened. but again, they were showing incredible strength and fortitude. one of the people there had lost his brother just a week before. so i mean it's an extraordinarily traumatic experience for everybody there. we spoke to the colonel there that is taking a little listen to what he said and i can tell you more on the other side. >> they're trying to hit us from the sky. every night, every day. we can fight them on the ground. we do this very successful. but if the decision will be made to cover our ukrainian sky, i think this war will end very

fast. very fast. and we will do this now on ukrainians. we need -- we have just problem, its sky. there are a lot of russian rockets and airplane that's are taking advantage. >> and that's what you hear from everybody, nicole. please close the skies over our heads because we're getting pounded. that's where the biggest danger is coming to ukrainian soldiers, ukrainian citizens are the planes and the missiles that are flying. as you heard the colonel say, he thinks that they can handle them on the ground and you look at places like kyiv, you know, they're putting up a really big resistance fight against the russians there. and they think that they can hold them off if the russians don't pound them from the sky. i mean this is extraordinary scenes you're seeing in kyiv. the ukrainians are blowing up their bridges in that town. so the russians can't cross the bridges and get into kyiv.

there is a saying you have to destroy the village to save the village. that's what they're doing in their capital city. they think they can't hold them off if they get tacked from the sky. that's just too much. and some of the fears, some of the speculation is that if the russians get bogged down, they've been plagued with logistical issues, if they can't take kyiv the conventional way, then they'll raise it to the ground like many of the other cities they've done across ukraine. i mean, kyiv is a very important place for the russians. it's very symbolic. it is full of the orthodox churches. at some point they may not care and they may pound it like this is this very many other kun cities across this country. >> we don't have a lot of visibility in those talks. some of the early ones were in person between the russians and ukrainians. i you imagine that is front and center on the news there. and on people's mind there. what is the sense of the prospects for success of those

talks? >> well, its very hard to tell with the russians. there is that famous quote by churchill, russia is a riddle and an enigma. but, you know, the talks have been -- they started yesterday. they've been going on today. luke what the shapg on the ground here and what is happening in kyiv. it doesn't look like they're being particularly sensitive to the position. but nonetheless, they're engaging in the talks and seeing if they can get somewhere. and rather extraordinarily as well, you know, the prime ministers of slow vaina and czech republic and poland got on a train and drove through wore

torn kyiv to have a conversation with zelenskyy to show their support from the european union. and it's not just the hollow gesture thment he could have done it from video link but they got on train and went to the capital city to talk to the guy. there is a lot of support for them here. and the hope is that, you know, at some point they could make some sort of a deal especially if things are getting more difficult for the russians. nbc's ali live for us in lviv. please stay safe, my friend. thank you for spending time with us. >> thank you. >> joining our coverage, kenny kay of bbc news. and also msnbc contributor. and retired four star general barry mccaffrey.

i ask you one, if you have a sense of what number can be trusted and we heard 6 thoi thou -- 6,000 to 8,000. and you can't spin or put a shine on but that kind of -- those numbers about the loss of sort of young russian lives. i wond you are your thoughts on that. give us a sense of the impact on russia. >> i think the department knows. we heard that from kirby. when i think my general sense is they probably lost 10% of the assault forces have been killed or wounded. they lost a considerable amount of armor. and seemingly incompetently led russian forces.

so they stimied them more now. the correlation of forces though, nicole, clearly favors the russians. because 60% of the ground combat forces were inside ukraine. they got half their air force committed to this. and going forward, howe hard to see how anything results except a street by street battle for kyiv could go on literally for weeks. so this is a temporarily a deadlock. >> general mccaffrey, the thing that president zelenskyy and the colonel and my colleague speaks to there, they ask for, is off the table. and in this country and that is protecting the airspace fly zone. what are the things, short of that, on the other side of the line from that, that we aren't already doing for ukraine to

help them do that themselves? are there more things in that tool kit? >> i'm really surprised they're using commercial truckers, trains. so they're actually getting to the fighting units inside ukraine. just magnificent. but, you know, president zelenskyy actually needs air power to stop the pounding. but the pounding isn't some humanitarian narrow air corridor over a select number of cities. he needs to strike the place that's are attacking him. that means artillery on the ground, you know, within 15

kilometers of kyiv and near kyiv. he needs to strike cruise missiles in belaruse which is where they're being fired from. it would change the nature of this struggle overnight. but president biden and the nato heads of state have to make a political decision to go to war with russia inside ukraine to start with but possibly would extend from there. >> so far much of the assessment that the intelligence community made before the invasion has proven spot on. but there are always things that

aren't predicted. i think one of them might be how blatant russia has been with the lies about biological weapons and chemical weapons. let me show you the nato secretary-general today warning that russia is doing. >> now they're making absurd claims about biological weapons and labs in ukraine. this is over the line. we're concerned that moscow could stage a false flag operation, possibly including chemical weapons. >> the nightmare scenario. it's horrific. it is out there every single

day. let's say god forbid he use them in kyiv, how does the western alliance respond to that? we haven't had an answer. it's understandable that we haven't had an answer because there is no very good answer. and nato intelligence doesn't want to tip its hand. but it is something that enough people are talking about. it's been interesting to watch the ripples from when this was first raised as a prospect in washington about a week ago and how quickly we then heard it from european leaders echoing the same concerns and talking about it today. i think that is a reflection of how the section of american intelligence changed against the american allies. they were a little skeptical about u.s. intelligence. i noticed that now european nations are very quickly echoing u.s. intelligence which shows you how much coordination there

is and how much trust there is now among america's allies in europe over what they are hearing from the american intelligence community. >> obviously the trust is good. the fact that this is the thing that they all believe is possible is horrific. i want to talk about that more. we have to sneak in a quick break. you're staying us with. also when we come back, russia's assault in ukraine tragically put all the journalists there shining a light on the abuses and horrors of more into harm's way. two reporters working for fox news, we learned today were killed outside of kyiv. one is in the hospital with very serious injuries. we'll talk about the vital importance of what all of these journalists do, why they're there, and why they will stay there most likely even through such senseless, horrific tragic losses. later in the program, the woman we told you about yesterday that crashed russian state tv by

protesting the war in ukraine with a poster. she was in court today, speaking out about her detention and treatment. the kremlin weighing what is next for her. she could face very serious charges. we'll ask how closely the world is watching. how russia responds, and if that makes any difference one way or the other for her. all those stories and more. r the other for her. all those stories and more at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. ♪ dry eye symptoms keep driving you crazy? inflammation in your eye might be to blame. let's kick ken's ache and burn into gear! over the counter eye drops typically work by lubricating your eyes and may provide temporary relief. those drops will probably pass right by me. xiidra works differently, targeting inflammation that can cause dry eye disease.

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big boi marble. big boi quartz. word? realtor.com to each their home. (music throughout) word? we want to do what we can to help the president has a very difficult line to walk here. en that is no one wants to trigger world war iii.

it is important that we not district engagement with the russians. it is also important that putin not be the one who is allowed to call the shots here. he has tried to declare all kinds of aid as a direct conflict and it's not. but it's a difficult moment. we're doing everything we can to support the ukrainians. and i strongly believe that's what we should be doing. >> so sounds like you're open to options. >> you have to keep options on the table. >> that was senator elizabeth warren urging the americans to keep the options open. president zelenskyy is set to address congress tomorrow. what reception do you expect? and if you look at how roundly sort of well received president joe biden's state of the union

address was, the first 20 minutes about ukraine, it feels like we're wired to see democrats and republicans agree on much. i imagine he'll be warmly received by both parties. >> i think that the reaction he got when he spoke to the british parliament, when he spoke to the canadian parliament, it will be the same. i imagine you'll get a standing ovation and lots of cheers. i was listening to that speech that he gave to the canadian parliament. he sounding increasingly frustrating saying it's great that you all support me. it's great that you call yourselves, you know, friends of ukraine. and i want that no fly zone. he's being very disciplined every single ukrainian politician that you hear on the airwaves speaking in english. we heard it just now. they're taking the opportunity to ask for that no fly zone, to ask for help in the air.

this is something that you're hearing senators both from the republican party and the democratic party say the aleast needs to be a possibility. i wonder if that is what he was referring to, at least a discussion about whether that is the right thing to do now. >> general mccaffrey, i want your thoughts on all. this i also want to ask you if the picture of america's expectations of ukraine has had to be adjusted. coupled with the skipful and tough performance of ukraine's

military. do you think that has forged any reconsiderations of things that were not really on the table two weeks ago? >> yeah. i think so. i think many of us d.c. i'm following the russians since i was in russian military since ways 17 years old. putt yun put 20 years in trying to modernize and professionalize them. you know, bringing in professional contract soldiers instead of conscripts, arming them with new model technology primarily nuclear forces have been modernized. but this is a real mess. they didn't look well organized

not just at the theater level but the battalion level. there is a surprising lack of determination by the russian privates compared to citizens and arms in ukraine. they're stuck on roads. they don't appear to be show much initiative and they're getting killed in significant numbers. i think there is a real reassessment. an interesting dialogue going on now about china and taiwan. i've been saying for the last year if i was an unpaid viewsor, be careful, this could be the greatest disaster in chinese history. you know, it's 100 miles of open ocean between mainland china and taiwan. and again, the chinese have said well, taiwanese won't really fight. they don't have first-rate equipment. so i think there is a reassessment. the biggest one, of course, is in nato.

germany, this giant economic power house which has a great officer corps but no technology, no equipment, no budgets. they just came together and said we're going to double the defense budget investment next year. that's good news for nato deterence. >> and to the point, it may sort of put more options on the table for president zelenskyy. just real quickly, general mccaffrey, what do you think the most sort of, the best use of president zelenskyy's sort of words are tomorrow in terms of getting things that america hasn't taken off the table? >> we have switch blade, it is a

kamikaze. it costs $6,000. hopefully that technology will go n i sense the president is reluctant to put super modern cutting edge u.s. military technology to the fight. they're out there looking for, you know, technology, that's where the future is. poor president zelenskyy. he is desperate. they're being pounded. civilians are being killed by the hundreds. 20% of the country is in fight no internally or externally. you have to be careful pushing against a door that's locked. and i don't think president biden and his senior team want to get u.s. and britain and french air power in there to knock the russians back. we could do it. you know, give us 30 days for an air campaign and these people are toast. but it's direct war with russia.

it won't be confined to the ukraine. it's going to -- we're going to have to go to targets in belaruse and boarder regions of russia. it will be a real mess. and so, you have to respect president biden's caution on all of this. >> we'll be watching tomorrow. we'll turn to both of you to understand where things stand after that address. general barry mccaffrey, thank you. thank you for stick around. after the break, our country, the world really relies on the journalists on the ground in ukraine to tell us the truth about what is really happening there. so at extreme personal risk and this afternoon tragic news from right outside kyiv, journalists killed by russian forces. , jour killed by russian forces that improves age-related blurry near vision. wait, what? it sounded like you just said an eye drop that may help you see up close. i did. it's an innovative way to... so, wait. i don't always have to wear reading glasses?

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your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire the journalists are our eyes and ears and they bear witness to the horrors of war. we learned late this afternoon that a ukrainian journalist working for fox news died in an attack by russian forces outside kyiv. she was working alongside two other journalists that are in photojournalists. we learned this morning also

died as a result of that attack. and correspondent benjamin hall was injured and remains hospitalized with the injuries. all that after this weekend we learned that another journalist, we covered it here, filmmaker brent renault on assignment for "time" was killed covering this war. russia may now be forced to answer for these developments given something access reports this morning journalists covering the invasion are considered civilians under international humanitarian law. targeting them can be considered a war crime. joining us now best-selling author, filmmaker and journalist sebastian younger. he covered major international stories around the globe. he is one of most accomplished war reporters. founder of reporters instructed in saving colleagues, a group dedicated to promoting the safety of freelance journalists working in conflict zones. you must have so much going through your mind.

you worked alongside journalists who lost their lives. what are your thoughts today? >> i'm so incredibly sad. it recalls for me personally the loss of my friend and brother and colleague that i made a film with. we were in a lot together. we both almost lost our lives and he did lose his life in libya about 11 years ago. and, you know, i just think oh, my gosh, what i went through now, the other families are going through. and, you know, now i'm a parent. i can't imagine that hang to my child. i mean there are not words to -- there are not words to think about it. >> we're so dependent on them. and as i said, everything that we have covered the last two weeks is dependent on when those

journalists richard engel and cal perry need to sleep and when they're available to tell us what they're seeing. your thoughts about how indispensable that work is and feels to the journalists themselves and why they do it? >> there is no free society and know democracy and no peace without the free throw of information and journalists. in this country, it's been a healing for some people. the enemy of the people. and, you know, i think it's illuminating to look at who takes that sentiment to the next level and actually kulz journalists.

very clearly, freedom of the world depends on what happens in ukraine and we depend on journalists to know what is happening there. so our government can make good decisions. let's set our house if order in that sense. we'll help ourselves in the world enormously if we do. >> spoiler alert, donald trump called journalists the enemy of the people. the editor of "the new york times" went to see him and said it endangers journal usts around the world that don't operate in a free society. i wonder your thoughts about the exodus. the bbc, bloomberg, others have depleted the staffs. >> they're taking the safety of the staff seriously, thank god. i wouldn't want to say if it were otherwise. there are always freelancer,

particularly locals. the local press in any country are uncredibly brave. sounds like they wouldn't be possible without the assistance of local to speak the language, know the country, politics, and assist the journalist who's come in international journalists who come in. there are always great locals and international freelancers who do not get pulled out because they're working on their own and working for themselves. and, you know, at the end of the day, they're our ultimate eyes and ears even in situation that's the news bureaus find untenable. >> what are your thoughts about this war. it reminds me of the first war i was in bosnia. bombing of cities. in sarajevo, 20% of the residents in that city were killed or wounded. 20%. men, women, children, everybody. one out of five was culled or

wounded. i wrote a book called freedom about how underdogs can defeat greater powers. that's true in mixed martial arts, octagons and at war with insurgencies. the if it were not true, smaller forces could not defeat larger forces. the world would be composed of facist mega states. but luckily it's possible. we're the only species where the smaller individual or group can defeat a larger one. and that makes freedom possible. and so i would just say with all these horrific images, history is littered with examples of a smaller force that wins. the irish defeated the british. the british empire. and we were 50 miles off their coast. never the less, they defeated them and drove them out.

ed. >> they attacked the forces with three main groups all night long. and then launched major attack at dawn and killed a third of the people and drove them out. ridiculous odds. and they still won. just keep in mind the root of freedom. they're fighting for the people they love. and if all society, that means you'll die if you have to. male or female. that makes more for a very, very hard population to defeat. >> that's what we're seeing on the ground. that is for people who know this

country. >> remarkably, every single person you see on the street, they say they're prepared to stay and die to the women that had to leave with their children but leave behind husbands, fathers, brothers, sons, all to fight, you know, for their country. and sebastian knows this. you can have a small force, the mujaheddin beat the soviet union. they got them out of afghanistan after ten long years of fighting. with american stingers. but they did stick them out and they got them out. the problem for u drainians now is that there could be terrible loss of life. we know what russia can do. the we have seen it in syria. we've seen him use chemicals in a nato country. he used chemical weapons against former spy in in the united kingdom not that long ago. so he will stop at nothing. the burden of that falls on the

shoulders of the ukrainian people. >> thank you both so much. sebastian's book explores "freedom." we would love to continue to call on you. thank you for being part of our coverage today. next for us, we'll talk with a member of the house intelligence committee. the house unintelligee committee. every business is on a journey. and along the ride, you'll find many challenges. ♪ your dell technologies advisor can help you

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i'm ashamed that i allowed lies to be told from tv screens, that i allowed russian people to be zombiefied. we stayed quiet when all of this was just getting started in 2014. we didn't come out to protest when the kremlin poisoned navalny. we simply continued watching in silence, this inhumane regime. now the whole world turned away from us. ten generations of our descendants won't be able to wash away the shame of this fratricidal war. >> it's that moment that has been seen all around the world by this point. we showed this to you yesterday. that is the brave journalist who burst on to russian state tv, protesting the war in ukraine. her message, which she prerecorded before the live protest on your screens now, calling what her country, russia, is doing a crime and urging other russians to speak out against it. she appeared in court today, received a fine of about $280 for that prerecorded message, afterwards telling reporters she

hasn't slept in two days, wasn't allowed to make any phone calls or to see a lawyer. she could still face up to 15 years in prison for her television protest. ukrainian president zelenskyy had a message for her. he called her an example to other russians, saying this. quote, to those who are not afraid to protest before your country closes totally to the rest of the world, turning into a very big north korea, you need to fight. you shouldn't miss your own chance. joining us now, congressman jim himes of connecticut. congressman, how much of this focus on getting the dissent in russia out there is central to ending the war, and reining putin in? >> well, thanks for having me, nicole. it's really critical. you know, putin, though he is losing, in fact, arguably frrks any strategic or political win, arguably he's lost, he's got the resources, certainly the

military resources to turn this into just a long-term meat grinder in ukraine, and a lot of what will stop him from doing that is if he believes that his political position inside russia is challenged, and that's why these remarkable acts of courage are important, and you know, they're only going one way. i mean, there are hundreds of thousands of russians losing their jobs every single day, not just those that are working for american or western companies, but those who inevitably, as, you know, parts for airplanes and parts for other equipment no longer is coming in, you know, it will be, at the end of the day, the russian people who put a stop to this, and that's why these efforts are so important. >> congressman, sebastian younger was just on, author of the book "war," famed war journalist, director of a documentary about afghanistan, and he said that anyone who describes journalists who are shining a light on the abuses in ukraine and all around the world the enemy of the people is in bed with putin.

is in bed with other dictators and authoritarian leaders. how much of these sort of ravages of the world have their origins in the people donald trump lifted up and the allies he didn't help? >> you know, it's a litmus test, nicole, of authoritarianism, and you know, as an elected official, i'm the first to say that the press, which is there to hold people like me accountable, will sometimes be really annoying, sometimes they will get the story wrong, but it's practically a mathematical litmus test. the more you rail against the press, the more you rail against the media, the wronger you are, and that's why there is no media in north korea, and that's why there is a media in the west, and of course, the remarkable thing about this, nicole, is that, you know, russia is not north korea. there is no way that you can cut off russians from access to their cousins, their friends, their business associates around the western world, so you know,

the story will get told inside russia, and of course, you made the comparison to donald trump. you can count on putin and his people saying, this is fake news. >> literally, the same words. just with the time we have left, what will it be like for you to listen to president zelenskyy tomorrow in that chamber? >> well, it's sort of hard to describe how powerful the speech was just a week ago when he addressed us a little less formally over the weekend. and you know, he is really -- i mean, i want to use the world churchillian, right? he's a big reason why russia is on its knees right now, why vladimir putin is not going to in any strategic sense, going to win this war, and he has also pushed us. he's pushed us. many of us believe that a no-fly zone is a step too far, but we're still having a very significant argument, discussion with the white house about the provision of airplanes and figuring out, even though last week was a big week in terms of delivering aid, what more we can do to support this remarkable

leader. >> i want to put you on the spot and ask you to come back tomorrow after listening to the speech and as someone who's at the table for these discussions, tell us if he seems to have a gift for broadening the conversation and i would like to understand if he's able to do that with his audience, all of you, tomorrow. >> sounds good. >> congressman jim himes, thank you so much for being part of our coverage. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. ne white house" starts after a quick break. f ms... there's a lot to deal with. not just unpredictable relapses. all these other things too. it can all add up. kesimpta is a once-monthly at-home injection... that may help you put these rms challenges in their place. kesimpta was proven superior at reducing the rate of relapses, active lesions, and slowing disability progression vs aubagio. don't take kesimpta if you have hepatitis b, and tell your doctor if you have had it, as it could come back. kesimpta can cause serious side effects, including infections. while no cases of pml were reported in rms clinical trials,

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basically, what i am trying to say that we all need to do, you all need to do more to stop russia, to protect ukraine, and by doing that, to protect europe from russian threat. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york, 11:00 p.m. in kyiv. another emotional plea from ukraine's president zelenskyy to western allies. today, he was addressing canadian parliament virtually. president zelenskyy made his appeal by asking them to imagine if what is happening in ukraine right now were happening in canada. president zelenskyy asking for more security assistance and repeating his calls for a no-fly zone above ukraine. requests he is expected to repeat tomorrow when he appears virtually before u.s. congress. so far, the ukrainian military has surprised experts with their skill, their acumen, their ability to repel, in my instances defeat, the russian forces, yet the bombardment of

ukrainian cities from the sky and from afar continues to escalate in that country. commercial and residential areas in the capital city of kyiv were hit once again with more russian missiles today. the second high-rise apartment building in two days went up in flames. kyiv's mayor confirmed that at least four people died in today's attack. and he announced a 35-hour curfew for his city that began just a few hours ago. increasingly brutal assault on kyiv comes as three european leaders, the prime ministers of poland, the czech republic, and slovenia, all travel deep into the heart of an active war zone today to meet with president zelenskyy in kyiv to show their support and solidarity with the people of ukraine. today, we learned of the death of a second u.s. journalist in recent days, fox news cameraman pierre zakrzewski died after his vehicle came under fire outside of kyiv yesterday. ukrainian producer working for fox news was also killed. she was just 24 years old.

and the humanitarian crisis in ukraine is expanding at a rapid pace. more than 3 million civilians have fled their country, not knowing when or if they'll be able to return home. and it is against that backdrop that the white house announced earlier today that president joe biden will travel to brussels next week to attend summits of both nato and the european council. that's where we begin the hour. joining us on the ground in lviv, ukraine, nbc's cal perry and jacob soboroff is also on the ground in lviv now covering the red cross relief efforts. cal perry, i start with you. i'll say something that i said in the segment with sebastian younger. we build the entire rundown of all these programs around your availability, both of you, your time, your ability, your bandwidth to talk to us and tell us what's happening on the ground and with the tragic news of two members of that fox news crew and another reporter being hospitalized with his injuries, our concern and our gratitude deepens, cal.

>> reporter: so, sebastian younger is somebody i look up to a great deal. i spent a lot of time in iraq on the ground there for many years, as did pierre zakrzewski. he was a mainstay in these stories. he was somebody who has been to these places. he was instrumental in the iraq war coverage. he was instrumental in helping fox news get staff out of afghanistan. without him, there is going to be fewer videos back to the u.s. about what's happening here. his partner in this, and our partner on the ground, are the people who live here. and as is true with sasha -- i wanted to get the pronunciation right -- 24 years old. i'll be harsh on all of us and say, we come to these places and leave. we will come back, we will visit, but the local fixers, the local producers, the local journalists who work here, they touch all of our stories. they're responsible for the audio that we get, the sound that we get, the translation, the pictures, and so it is a

tragedy and it is a tragedy because less of this story will now be known to the world. what's happening in the country today is a further disintegration of what we've been seeing. in the city of mariupol, there was a little bit of success, 200 cars got out, some 2,000 people got out, but 400,000 people there remain, and russian soldiers have now taken the main hospital in that city. they're actually occupying that hospital, and so 400 patients who are in that hospital are either not receiving the treatment they should or are unable to leave. it is emblematic of what we're seeing across the country. we saw a little bit of positive news from the city of sumy. ten buses, at least, got out of there today. ferrying people out of that city. that is also some good news but all of this on the backdrop of what is happening across the country, which is a heavy bombardment of these civilian areas, especially in kyiv. we have multiple apartment buildings that were shelled overnight. it was one yesterday. our colleague, richard engel, remains there on the ground, reporting from these sites and where there was one apartment building yesterday, there's now

five or six that have been shelled overnight. the most interesting thing and development today is there is a train that runs from where i am right now in lviv into the city of kyiv, into the capital. that train is still running and there's really only three groups of people that are on that train, people that are headed to the front to fight the russians, people that are headed to the front to bring ammunition and weapons or support to the russians, and people who are on that train to get their families out. well, add to that today the leaders of three european countries who got on that train and went to kyiv, a city under fire, a city that is being shelled, to meet with the ukrainian president. it is a moment of european diplomacy that we have not seen in generations. it is sort of stunning, all the more, when you throw in the reporting fact that they announced this visit before they left. we knew they were going before they boarded that train, so they wanted the world to know, and more specifically, they wanted the russian military to know that they were headed to the capital. we'll see if anything comes from those peace talks but certainly

a lot of support coming in the way of the ukrainian president. >> cal, you have enhanced our understanding of how president zelenskyy is keeping his country literally from ripping apart at the seams with grief, with horror, with shock or perhaps despite all of those emotions, and one of it is by the exceedingly skillful training that his military has and their victories and their strength on the battlefield. the other is these addresses that we cover today. he addressed the canadian parliament today. he addresses congress. but you drew our attention to something else that he's doing, and that is sort of the information warfare and russian propaganda is all lies, but there is a part of a wartime leader boosting his own country and his own country's morale, and some of what you mentioned yesterday are these intercepts. we think of wiretaps as highly classified, but these sound like eavesdropped conversations of

russian soldiers calling home. we found some of them. you want to tell us what we're listening to and then we'll play them? >> reporter: yeah, so, and i'm hoping we have it. >> we've got it. >> reporter: we started this conversation yesterday or last week. we were talking about morning television in ukraine. and morning television in ukraine has taken on the character of this president, of president zelenskyy, and the narration that they've put out, the storyline they've put out is, in part, one, if god is on our side, who could be on their side? you're fighting for your freedom. you're fighting for your liberty and homes and there could be nothing greater than that, and he has struck that chord. the other note that he's playing, and he strikes it very well is that the russians don't know what they're doing here and a lot of the young conscripts are being lied to and they don't have the support they need and they're going to abandon their posts and give up. what we're seeing on national television as well as on social media, are some intercepted calls that the ukrainians claim they've picked up from young russian soldiers phoning home.

here's a little bit of that. >> cal, i mean, the profane and certainly not the moral high ground. but explain how that plays in the country. >> reporter: not the moral high ground. and let's be clear. i mentioned yesterday that young russian soldiers are being paraded on tv here after they're either shot down in their war planes or whether they're takingen on the battlefield. that's a violation of the geneva convention so let's not pretend

like that's not happening. this is a country that is fighting for its survival, that is trying to win a war. so the way it plays here is that this is a necessary evil that needs to be shown to people but most importantly, needs to be communicated back to the russian people. and so, you have in addition to these daily videos that president zelenskyy puts out, partly proof of life, partly this amazing narrative that he has written and this thing that he has been able to show as a leader in these green camouflage tops, in trenches drinking coffee. the other part of it is he goes out of his way, at least now once a day, to speak in russian to russian mothers, to russian fathers, to the families of russian soldiers, and he talks about this. he talks about, do you know what your son is doing here? do you know where your son is? maybe your son won't come home. yesterday, he went out of his way in russian on telegram to speak to russian conscripts directly. he said, if you surrender, you'll be treated well with dignity and you will live. if you don't, you could die. so, he's messaging it for different audiences. he's messaging some things for people here in ukraine, and then he's trying to talk directly to

the russian people as well. >> and cal, just quickly, we heard him speak directly to the journalists who in her act of defiance in war protest held up that no war sign on russian state tv at great peril. i imagine that got a lot of air time there in ukraine as well. >> reporter: yeah, he's trying to counteract what russians are seeing on russian state tv. they're monitoring what is being shown on russian state tv. it's something that is pretty fascinating, because there was a long-running joke here that president zelenskyy would win a free and fair election in russia because he's the only one to speak to the russian people in this way. i only give that anecdote as an indication of where he's coming from. from a pr perspective, how he's organizing that message. he's trying to speak to russians in a way that nobody is speaking to them. >> you know, jacob, i want to show the beginning of this address, because i think what cal has sort of shown us is, you know, if you cut the three-layer cake, there's a message to the troops, there's a message to the world, and there's a message to his country and there's a

message to the russians. let me show some of his emotional appeal to the world. >> imagine that on the -- on 4:00 a.m., you start hearing bomb explosions, severe explosions, bombing of airport, bombing of ottawa airport, cruise missiles falling down, and your children are asking you, what happened? which infrastructure objects have been bombed and destroyed by russian federation? and you know how many people already died. can you only imagine what words? how can you explain to your children that you just, full-scale aggression just happened in your country? >> jacob, this is not a thought exercise. 1.5 million ukrainian children are among the 3 million refugees, and the world responding as quickly as it can, but it doesn't seem like it's

quite fast enough. tell me about the aid efforts that you're covering. >> reporter: nicole, you heard the president ask the world to imagine what things are like here. in the middle of this war. the people i met today, they don't have to imagine. they've experienced it for themselves. here in lviv, it's a city of normally 700 or so thousand people. there are 200,000, according to the united nations, 300,000 according to the red cross, with whom i spent the evening tonight before the curfew set in, internally displaced persons. before they leave this country, they're not considered refugees. they're called idps, internally displaced persons, and i met two mothers tonight, one having her 40th birthday, the other sleeping on a cot outside the train station here in lviv. they literally have no place to go. they don't know where they'll go

next. they don't know what tomorrow will bring. their towns are decimated. they don't know where their friends are. they can't get in touch with or leave their parents who are living far away from them and they don't know if they will ever see them again. it's not something they have to imagine. it's not something that they have to have nightmares about. it's something they are living every single day here and that's why the red cross and other international and nongovernmental organizations are on the ground in what is a response to a spectacular, tremendous, devastating humanitarian crisis, disaster, whatever you want to call it. the red cross is bringing in 200 tons of food, of medical supplies, just today alone, they're evacuating people from the front lines to cities like here in lviv, so they have the opportunity to actually get out of this country when they can get on a train, when they can get on a bus. there were buses lined up to go to warsaw tonight when we were outside there at the train station. these are scenes that we saw and were shocked by weeks ago, but

they continue every single day. they continue tonight on my first night in this country. it's not letting up. there are no signs of any of this letting up. and these people, again, don't have to imagine what's happening here. it is what they're living day in and day out. >> jacob, there have been so many reports from cal and others of parents having to stay behind to take care of their parents, as you just alluded, but wanting their children not to be at risk, so they put them -- they do the unthinkable. they put them on trains and buses to points west. i wonder how that ripples through the aid operation and the aid logistics. how do you care for 1.5 million children? >> reporter: yeah, it's a terrific question. here, outside the train station in lviv tonight, is literally divided up by tents. there are tents for unaccompanied children who are here without their parents. there are tents for mothers and children alone. there are tents for families.

there are accommodations for people to get a meal or to grab some clothes. if they left their home with simply the clothes on their backs, and i think that the hardest thing to see, the hardest thing to understand and comprehend is that there are children who arrive in this city, who arrive in countries outside of ukraine without those parents, and it's the job of these organizations here in-country and also once they cross borders, we cross from hungary today and saw aid organizations waiting for both families and children to find them and to not only care for them but to ultimately figure out a way to reunite them with their parents. and it is -- it's unspeakable. it's hard to talk about. it's hard to see with your own eyes, but imagine living this in all corners of this country, and that's what's happening right now. >> jacob, what does the red cross need? what do the aid organizations need? >> reporter: they need money. they need money. they appealed to me tonight for donations from people around the

world, it's not just the red cross but in this one square, world central kitchen, chef jose andres's organization is there. the world food program is operating inside this country. the u.n.'s iom, their institute for migration is operating here. unhcr, the refugee organization is operating and that's just a short list. they talk about what the migrants need. they need food, clothes, medical attention. sometimes they need, in the absence of parental supervision, an adult to watch after children, but in order to do those things, they need to fund their organizations and their operations. and so many people around the world are wondering what they can do to help. these organizations are appealing for them to connect with them, connect with them immediately and connect with them urgently in order to take care of these, not only the children but the families all throughout this country. >> i want to come back to you, cal perry, and i just want to ask you for an update on what life in that city is like. as conditions deteriorate in kyiv, as the russian intention

to indiscriminately bomb civilians becomes more abundantly clear not just to the world but to the residents of cities like kyiv, how has that impacted the sort of influx into lviv where you have been now? >> reporter: so, i think you're going to have people coming here from those areas that are being impact but you're also going to have people making another decision here in lviv, which may trigger a second wave of refugees then fleeing west. i think it's probably likely you'll have that and it's not just what we're seeing in the east. it's the fact that the air raid sirens here are sounding more often. we had a couple today during the day, the first ones during the day we've had in about a week, and 72 hours ago, we had the distant sound of explosions that, again, were to the west of me. you know, the war, i think a lot of people in lviv, and we felt it here, is long way off, 350 miles to the east. but once the explosions go off between where we are and the polish border, if you are sleeping at that train station,

if you are alone with your kids, you're going to rethink that decision to stay in lviv, and you're likely going to head to poland, and i think it's that triggering of a second wave that a lot of people fear here, nicole. >> nbc's cal perry and nbc's jacob soboroff, two of my dearest colleagues, two of the best reporters in this company, i say this from all of us. please, please, please, please stay safe, okay? thank you very much for starting us off today. when we come back, ahead of his address to congress tomorrow, ukraine's president zelenskyy is once again urging western allies to send more weapons as ukrainian forces look to slow down and stymie the russian advance in their country. plus brand-new reporting on the direct link from online anti-vaxing conspiracy theories to a discredited conspiracy theory being pushed by the far-right about ukrainian bioweapons labs. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. this is vuity™, the first and only fda approved eye-drop that improves age-related blurry near vision. wait, what? it sounded like you just said an eye drop

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you have european leaders coming here today to -- here to show their support but is that enough? what else should be happening? >> it's never enough. with the unity of democratic war, unity around ukraine is very important because we fighting not for our city. we fighting right now, not just for our country. we fighting all together for our values, our principles. >> that was the mayor of kyiv in an interview there with sky news's alex crawford on ukraine's pleas for unity among all democracies and assistance.

just one day ahead of president zelenskyy when he is expected to be even more forceful in those appeals to the united states for tougher sanctions and more weapons, and even as deadly russian strikes begin to bombard the capital city of kyiv this week, ukrainian forces continue to fight and slow russian forces there and in other cities across ukraine. it's all in hopes of buying time for more weaponry from the west to get into the country and for diplomatic pressure to be applied in global outrage to build and to take its toll on vladimir putin. from the "washington post" reporting today, quote, for the ukrainian forces, this war is one of attrition. they appear to be trying to slow and wear down the russian military, creating conditions for a stalemate on the outer boundaries of kyiv. ukraine's main game is a game for time, side michael kaufman, director of russian studies at the center for naval analyses. are they in a position to drive russian forces out of ukraine? no. are they in a position to win the war? yes. joining us now is jim townsend,

former deputy defense secretary for nato where he helped europe deter russia after the cold war. with us onset, clint watts, former consultant to the fbi counterterrorism division, now a distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy research institute and an msnbc national security analyst. sometimes seen around our big board but i'm glad to have you at the table. jim townsend, let me start with you and your assessment of that analysis from the "washington post's" reporting, that we may have the wrong sort of metrics around what victory looks like in this horrific and tragic war, that the ukrainians in the assessment of many may be winning by not losing. >> that's exactly right. what mike coffman said in your reporting there is exactly right. ukraine has got to hold on, and there's essentially, really, a rate between both sides in terms of logistics in a lot of ways. we've seen, with russia, the impact of their logistical

problems, their mistakes, their wrong assumptions about what they were going to find when they went into ukraine, and we see that holding them up constantly every day, keeping them from moving forward. but you know, ukraine has a problem too. they're expending a lot of munitions. they've got humanitarian problems to deal with too. it's a race of logistics. we've got to keep the equipment and the humanitarian assistance going into ukraine. we've got to help the ukrainians hold on. at the end of the day, if they hold on, as mike coffman said, they win. >> jim, you, i think, were one of the first voices calling for -- and if i'm putting words in your mouth, please correct me -- but a little more creativity in what ukrainians want and what we are or are not willing to do. tell me your assessment of where those conversations, and they've been pretty public negotiations, of course, we don't know what we don't know about what's behind the scenes, but tell me how you see that in terms of what zelenskyy's asking for and what

we're willing to do. >> well, i think we're going to hear from zelenskyy tomorrow some familiar things. no-fly zones. we're going to hear about continuing the putting in the weaponry and the munitions and pressing for more. i think we're going to hear about the mig swap with poland, f-16s going to poland and polish mig-29s can get into ukraine. the administration has said that this is something that will -- is not something that the administration supports. they're afraid this is going to be escalatory and cause world war iii. i think we understand where they're coming from on that. and you're right. i was very vocal about doing something more, and i think there probably is more going on behind the scenes than we know in terms of pretty important assistance, in terms of intelligence, important in terms of targeting, that kind of thing. from u.s. assets that are in poland or in other places.

you know, the attack on yvriv that happened two days ago was a very interesting event, because that personal is a place where the west and ukraine have come together for years to train and certainly being so close to poland, it probably played a role in the resupply too. so, i think the russians are very aware of that, and they're beginning to step up attacks in the west to stymie and to warn off any idea of further western assistance going into ukraine. so, as this war goes on, i think at the end of the day, it's going to have to be this getting munitions and weaponry in there, not stopping that flow, and also trying somehow to protect these humanitarian corridors in terms of getting people out of ukraine, into poland, into romania, and in return, getting

up to the people who need it, the humanitarian assistance that come from those countries as well. it's -- those corridors, i think, is something we're going to have to come up with ways to protect and make sure they're never cut. >> jim, i just want to get your assessment of russia. i think the ukrainians have put out the number 6,000 to 8,000 russian soldiers who have lost their lives in this, i think, day 20 of this horrifically tragic and bloody war. some incredible acts of bravery that we've seen. we don't know, again, what we don't know about what's happening inside russia, but what is your assessment of the lack of morale and sort of the lack of fine-tuned or a battle plan based on current intelligence, which is most people's assessment of what's going wrong for the russians? >> jim? can jim hear us? oh, i think maybe we lost him. i mean, clint, you're perfectly

suited to jump in on that as well. i mean, what is your sense of sort of what may have gone wrong for them? i mean, they're capable of exacting extraordinary human toll on innocent civilians. obviously, on the ukrainian cities that they're reducing to rubble. tragically on journalists, ukrainian and western. but they have seemingly made some wrong assumptions about ukraine, about its military, about its will to fight for its own independence. what's your sense of where things stand in terms of how they're weathering the war? >> it is interesting to watch. it's very clear inside russia that dictators don't get good information. they get confirmation bias and that's what vladimir putin wanted to hear was this elaborate plan to take kyiv in a week that was never going to happen and it really shows now because you've seen them get pushback. they've encircled a lot of cities and bypassed them but it's not clear how they would ever go back and essentially clear those areas out and the

big thing i think you're seeing now, which is this stalled russian advance is a lot about logistics. some tanks just flatout run out of gas. they can't get fuel up to the front lines. you see russian soldiers going in and stealing food off the shelves or going into ukrainian homes, so that logistical battle just isn't there, and the way they attacked basically on three fronts makes logistics even harder. usually, you wouldn't do that. if you're doing an armor invasion of a country, you would try to build axes that are mutually reinforcing. they're shoring up some of that in the south where their better units are, but ultimately, i don't know what putin's plan would be long run, because even in places where he has found strength, he's got resistance in the rear. he's got protests going on. in kyiv right now, the ukrainian military is doing well, and so it is time and logistics, but i think there's another variable in terms of time, which is what we see happen in russia. we saw last night someone go out on television, show a poster, you know, is that the wuhan moment that we saw like in china with covid-19 where the public becomes aware of this?

i think the second factor to look at is the death of russian officers. they get buried back home. they have funerals. they're not low-class conscripts or soldiers who essentially get ignored by the russian people. this is going to have an effect, and i think, yes, they bolster the logistics but i really wonder back home, popular support starts swinging back towards putin and he's got a big problem. >> jim, we want your thoughts on that and i believe these numbers have only been put out in a credible way from the ukrainians, 6,000 to 8,000 russian soldiers who have lost their lives in this war in 20 days. >> that's exactly right. and i think it's not just the dead and wounded. it's not just those numbers, but it's conscripts going in who haven't been told where they're even going. they think they're going into the donbas area and instead of they're attacking kyiv. there's -- there are problems not just in terms of those that are taken out in combat, but

it's the morale problem that seems to be and the russian navy as well. i heard that there was a mutiny on a ship or close to one where a ship was going to be taken over by sailors. i've heard all kinds of stories of conscripts or the lower ranking soldiers knocking holes in the gas tanks of their armored vehicles so that gasoline drains out and they don't have to go into combat. there's problems like that in terms of morale that is like a virus that spreads as the days go on, if there's food shortages, if they're cold, if they sense there's no support, if they're under bad tactical leadership, they're not moving forward. this morale problem gets worse and worse and worse, and that impacts units just as much as a high casualty rate. so, it's something like that, when you combine that with the shortage of gasoline and munitions, it's going to be big trouble, particularly if they're

going to have to do urban warfare. as they go into not just kyiv but even the smaller towns, it's going to be tough if your unit, if your soldiers are demoralized and hungry and they don't like what they're seeing in terms of their senior leadership. they want to go home. then, having to go on and do that urban fighting, street to street, that's tough. and they're facing ukraine. ukraine soldiers, we've seen in your reporting, that are so motivated, they are defending their families, their homeland, and they're there to fight, and so you have that kind of soldier in the ukraine army go up against conscripts who don't want to be there, you know, that's -- there's nothing worse than that when you're at a stiff fight. >> we'll stay on it. that does seem to be emerging as one of these things that maybe the plans that putin had didn't take into account. jim townsend, always smarter when we get to listen to you. thank you so much for spending time with us.

clint sticks around. when we come back, brand-new reporting on the origins of that conspiracy theory about ukrainian bioweapons labs being pushed by the far right in this country and by the kremlin. that reporting is after the break. reporting is after the break. eldhave a crack? trust safelite. >> tech vo: this customer had auto glass damage, but he was busy working from home... ...so he scheduled with safelite in just a few clicks. we came to his house... ...then we got to work. we replaced his windshield and installed new wipers to protect his new glass, while he finished his meeting. let safelite come to you. >> man: looks great. thank you. >> tech: my pleasure. that's service on your time. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ every business is on a journey. and along the ride, you'll find many challenges. ♪ your dell technologies advisor can help you find the right tech solutions. so you can stop at nothing for your customers. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner

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so, how did a totally disproven conspiracy theory having to do with fake u.s. bioweapons labs in ukraine go from a single social media

account with a very small following to becoming what seems to be the conspiracy theory of the war so far, being shared up and down the far-right wing media ecosystem and across pro-kremlin spaces. some fantastic new online forensic reporting today from our colleague, ben collins, tracks that very story, tries to answer that very question, all the way back to its origin and details the ways it has spread like wildfire. more detail from his reporting. quote, most of the conspiracy theories claim that the u.s. was developing and plotting to release a bioweapon or potentially another coronavirus from biolabs throughout ukraine and that russia invaded to take over the labs. many of the theories implicate people who are often the targets of far-right conspiracy thinking. wait for it. including dr. anthony fauci and president joe biden as being behind creating the weaponized diseases in the biolabs.

wow. joining our conversation is nbc news senior reporter ben collins. clint watts, who is expert in all of this, is still here because my jaw is on the table. ben, take me through. you've got an incredible thread that does the storytelling on your reporting, but take us through it. >> yes, so, basically, a week before the invasion, russia was not talking about biolabs at all. they were talking about denazification. that was their line of thought, their pretext for going into ukraine to start this invasion. that didn't really pick up steam or make sense to anybody in the global far-right, which is largely pretty unified now every since the coronavirus. they have unified themselves against the idea that there is this new world order that's coming together to keep you inside and release bioweapons to hold dominion over you, basically. so they tried this denazification thing, it didn't

work. then there was a qanon twitter account that took this one post from a user on gab, from february 14th, which is, you know, about ten days before the invasion, and they -- that post said there were u.s. bioweapons in all these cities and all these things like that, and it took off on the right because this made a lot more sense to them than denazification. the far-right has been idolizing putin or at least they respect him as a leader, as a strong man, and they didn't want to turn on him overnight here. they thought it would be easier in their world to find a narrative that made sense where he's still kind of the good guy doing the right thing, and this was the narrative that stuck. so they took this biolabs idea -- there are biological research facilities pretty much every country. they look at, you know -- they don't necessarily make biological weapons. they didn't -- in this case, they didn't either. and that's what was going on here. they found a term, a spooky-sounding term, that made sense in the cadence of their conspiracy theories that has been going on for the last two

years, and this stuck, and for the first week or so, they were turning on vladimir putin. they legitimately were siding with ukrainians. but now, it's all up in the air. it seems like they're turning towards the goodwill and favor of vladimir putin once again. >> ben, can you explain sort of who -- who leads who. i mean, did the far-right qanon account give russia the idea? i mean, you heard the russian ambassador -- the russian foreign minister at the u.n. in a speech to the u.n. security council talking about ukrainian bioweapons. messages are amplified on right-wing media in this country. does that intersectionality all happen online? and then come out of the mouths of the most senior leaders of russia? and then in this country, the heads of the cia, the dia, state department's addressed, i mean, this lie about bioweapons in ukraine has been addressed at the highest levels of our government and the lies are being repeated at the highest

levels of the russian government. how has this disinformation been accelerated and amplified online? >> yeah, they feed on each other. it's a chicken or the egg situation with this kind of thing now. for example, ukraine creating bioweapons. that is an old conspiracy theory from the russians. they did it to deflect every time they've launched some sort of chemical attack, in the uk, they blamed ukraine bioweapons and said, maybe the u.s. are the people making the novichok here. somewhere in europe, in labs across europe, but of course, they poisoned the spy that defected. so -- and also in syria, by the way. this is a thing they've done over and over again, and that's why the u.s. is worried that this could be the pretext for them releasing some sort of chemical agent or biological weapons attack. however, i will say, this specific thread of this conspiracy theory, where there is this map of the biolabs and they said, you know, anthony fauci or hunter biden or

somebody is involved in making these biological weapons. this is an american far-right idea spawned by anti-vax and qanon communities because they put the old bad guys back into play here. they put them back into the storyline that makes sense to them. these are comfortable villains for them. they get to go back to them. and russia's propaganda, that had failed for weeks, that couldn't get china on its side for weeks, finally found a way to ingratiate all of its allies to bring them back into the fold on a narrative that made more sense for the global far-right. >> it is so disturbing and i think what is so important about this reporting is that nothing breaks the fever, not the brutality of the russian war in ukraine, not the indiscriminate bombing of journalists and civilians and children. i want to ask both of you more about this. ben collins and clint watts are sticking around and we'll be right back. t watts are sticking around and we'll be right back

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we're back with ben collins and clint watts, having, ben, some really important reporting and having this conversation about the intersection of russian propaganda and far-right american propaganda, tell me, you know, sort of as a student of this disinformation, what happens next? >> yeah, so, what's interesting, nicole, is disinformation from russia is like mad libs. the narrative stays the same. the arc is the same. they just substitute out the country and the people and the current circumstances with a little kernel of truth somewhere

else, a screen shot from a website, and then they run it. it's also a base layer of propaganda that should they want to do something, they're telling on themselves, right? they're saying, hey, there's a chemical weapons somewhere out there. we've seen this playbook before. later, chemical weapons are used. i think where it comes in militarily that we should be concerned is they lay this propaganda down. if you went on to the internet and looked up chemical weapons attack, the first thing that shows up is what they've been saying, right? because they've started the narrative. but separately, now, they've bypassed population centers in the east of ukraine. they're meeting stiff resistance from ukrainian military around kharkiv. well, how do you clear a population center without destroying every single building? that's a chemical weapons attack. and so, there's an impetus and a motive to do it. they're already speaking about it, so i think we have to really take into consideration that it may not be today, but two, three weeks down the road, the russian military is an extreme bind, they've got resistance in the rear, they can't supply logistics and what do they need

to do? they need to get rid of that and a way to do that is chemical weapons and if you look at the claims they're making in their disinformation about chemical weapons labs or places there, almost all of them are in the eastern part of ukraine. >> well, i mean, the horror of that has to be a real to be a r. i mean, the nato secretary general addressed this today. is any effort to combat a propaganda wave like this from russia ever successful? >> i think it is. i mean, we saw it in the lead up to the invasion where the u.s. declassified a lot of this intelligence. got out in front of it. my worry is that the u.s. government, the nato allies have not thought to keep doing this, that it's a sustained brush. russia doesn't pack up its propaganda and disinformation arms once they invade. they double down or triple down, which means we need to do the same from the western perspective, which is how do we help ukraine protect itself and preempt something like chemical weapons or how do we even get cameras in the hands of ukrainians with an internet

connection to preempt this to show what's going on so we have that base of evidence. if they cut off the cell phone towers, the electricity, the infrastructure, the only ones to tell the story are the russians that surround those towns, so that's what i'm worried about. how does the truth have a voice, we can help and empower them to do that. >> on the other side of the equation, what does russia do with the amplifiers of the lie? >> this only works because they have over the last really decade but particularly since 2015 become the connective tissue between the far right, from moscow to germany, a community amplifying and saying these things, if there's any truth to it at all. it sows down dout doubt at home. win through the force of politics, rather than the politics of force. elevate people with like minded thoughts who are saying what russia wants them to hear, and now not only do they do that in

the u.s., they do that on russian television. which makes it even harder for us to convince the russians about the awful things going on in ukraine. >> and harder for the russian dissidents and those who oppose the war. ben collins, it's important reporting. grateful to have time with you today, and clint watts, thank you so much for helping us understand all of it. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. stay with us. l be right back. stay with us this is vuity™, the first and only fda approved eye-drop that improves age-related blurry near vision. wait, what? it sounded like you just said an eye drop that may help you see up close.

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thank you so much for letting us in your homes during these extraordinary times "the beat" with ari melber. president zelenskyy, these are the first foreign leaders to come to ukraine which remains a war zone since the invasion began, and it is day 20 since we began seeing scenes like this. there are new attacks on kyiv, which is under a curfew for civilians, that's the first time they have instituted that. russia bombing an apartment building on the outskirts of the capital which has led to