more places. save over $1,000 when you switch to our ultimate business plan... ...for the lowest price ever. plus, choose from the latest 5g smartphones— like a free samsung galaxy s22. so switch to the network that helps your business do more for less—join the big switch to t-mobile for business today. hi there, everyone. 4:00 in new york. the war in ukraine nothing short of a scorched earth war of attrition in the fourth week with untold numbers of civilians dead. the besieged city of mariupol cut off from the outside world two straight weeks is the sight of brutal attacks. this theater may have housed up to a thousand people trying to

stay safe. these words visible from the air say children in russian. that theater struck by russian forces. officials say it is not clear how many people inside killed or injured in the strike. u.s. secretary of state blinken described atrocities as a part of a pattern from vladimir putin and what we should expect. >> we believe that moscow may be setting the stage to use a chemical weapon and then falsely blame ukraine to justify escalating its attacks on the people. manufacturing events and creating false narratives of genocide to justify the military force is a tactic that russia used before and likely to kidnap officials and replace them with puppets. >> with his country under attack ukraine's president zelenskyy

continues to make the case to the global community for more aid and arms for ukraine today. he did so in an address to germany's parliament saying that they had a historical responsibility to stop this war and bring ukraine closer to europe. >> translator: i remind you what you have to do without which europe will not survive and preserve the values. so the former u.s. president ronald reagan said this in berlin. break down this wall. and i want to say to you, chancellor scholz, break down this wall. >> negotiations resumed today between zelenskyy's government and russia. breakthrough is slim showing that vladimir putin shows no

sign to be in touch with reality despite reportedly making minimal progress on land, sea or air according to british intelligence and the mounting russian losses. estimates of russian casualties but conservatively at 7,000 soldiers. more than u.s. troops killed in iraq and afghanistan combined. from that "the new york times" report it is a staggering number amassed in three weeks of fighting. with implications for the effectiveness of russian units and military lost at least three generals in the fight according to ukraine nato and russian officials. pentagon officials say a high and rising number of war dead can kill the will to fight.

one recent report focused on low morale and soldiers parking the vehicles and walking off into the woods. joining us now is ali arouzi from ukraine. your reporting brings us back to the reality that this beleaguered and uninspired russian military is capable of doing catastrophic damage to the people. tell me about the day you witnessed there. >> reporter: that's exactly right. places like mariupol that you just mentioned the situation there is growing increasingly desperate. the russians are brutalizing that city and the civilians bear the brunt of the russian shelling. you spoke about the theater. devastating situation.

about 1,000 people were hunkered down in the basement. most women and children and as you mentioned that it was written in the front and the back of that theater, children. children. so the russian planes would see that. that didn't seem to deter them and dropped a bomb on the roof of that theater knowing that there are children in there and a glimmer good news is ukrainian authorities say most of the people in that building deep down in the basement and many may have survived that attack saying that they've been able to rescue about 130 people from there. but the devastating stories coming out of there. we spoke to a young lady today who had escaped mariupol with her family. i asked her what does it look like right now? she says i can't tell you because they're hitting it so heavily that the city is changing.

the skyline is changing. buildings are disappearing. she says all you really see in mariupol is black smoke and dust. she told me these very up setting story that is the children in mariupol have now realized the sound of the bombs and can distinguish whether they are close or far away and determine where they need to go based on the sound of the bombs. can you imagine a child having to live like that? infants don't have baby fortunately la. elderly people are struggling to get around. let's take a little listen to her interview and talk on the other side. >> translator: the shelling so heavy it was dangerous. we got locks for cooking and and some news on the street. the ruining is very strong. when you wake up and look out and see the black smoke in the

direction of your house or other districts and a lot of dust. when the rain started we were really happy and we collected the rainwater in every possible containers and filtered it and made soup, tea, porridge. >> how did you get out of mariupol and who went with you? >> translator: all my family left with me. my parents, sister, her husband and niece and three dogs. took everyone to the car and said we have to leave now. i understood that the next bomb is going to be dropped on our house and it was dropped on the theater nearby. >> reporter: can you imagine forcing people to have to live like that in the middle of winter happy it rains to gather drinking water and crudely had to filter and then boil and that

said it was a chance to make porridge, tea, soup to survive and her mother who's 81 years old lived through the second world war as an infant and didn't get food and water and energy from the blockade and can't believe to live through this again. a blockade in her 80s. that she just doesn't understand what is going on and says every day that the bombing fell her mother swear at putin saying she hopes she has the same faith of hitler and incredible to think. imagine packing up the kids, nephews, three dogs piling them into a car. not knowing where you're going to go. they're in a central city and also being hard hit. what will happen to them if it's like mariupol? pack your grandmother, grandfather, parents in the 80s.

your sister, niece and three dogs and try to set up somewhere else again and is impossible to imagine. >> it is. your reporting punches you in the gut and the idea of children learning to distinguish the proximity of a bomb is falling is perhaps the thing that i will go to bed at night thinking about. harrowing. we're grateful for you bringing there and bringing us the stories. please stay safe. thank you, my friend. >> thank you. retired army lieutenant colonel vindman joining you. now a board member with the renew democracy initiative. with us at the table a treat for us. jack crosbie for "rolling stone" and "time" magazine simon shuster is here. been back two days, right?

from ukraine. the piece on the photographer is documenting the war is out now featured with two special covers this week. colonel vindman, the brutality, the unsparing nature of intentional bombing a theater where women and children are inside, it feels like the juncture of the war. is that fair? >> it is. russians -- russian armed forces notorious to strike hospitals, schools, theaters. this is unfortunately what i refer to as morale targets. looking to crush the will of the people and the will to resist. this is the way they fight the war. from their stand point there's a logic to it. the logic is war, a prolonged

war is more disastrous than a short, sharp war. for them going to these extreme lengths we don't recognize -- so out of context in the west we wouldn't think about striking and do this accidentally. maybe colot -- collateral damage but this is the way they fight and a feature of the rest of the war in ukraine. >> control knell vindman, it is for the u.s. state department, we heard from secretary of state blinken, the cia director, dia director and others the intelligence about russia and chemical weapons is what has so far been a plan to throw them off key. that said you have to look at how much we knew about the plan to invade and we didn't

forestall that. how are we process talking about this intelligence that suggests that the russians may be dangling loose language about chemical weapons in ukraine as a pretext for their own chemical weapon attack in that country? >> i think the objectives are to intimidate the population in ukraine. the ukraine leadership to compel them to capitulate and to signal to the u.s. that unless it plays a constructive role in putting pressure on ukraine to end the war it could go to weapons of mass destruction. in reality i think this is the same policy of exposing russia's provocations to close off those as legitimate deniable activities by the russian government when a -- undertaking the attacks. i think unfortunately that's not going to -- we didn't forestall

the war and won't forestall a chemical strike if the russians choose to go in that direction. we need to signal that this would be an escalation that could frankly compel nato and the west to establish a no-fly zone or to strike russian targets responsible for the chemical weapons. similar to the previous administration did. it is not enough to expose the russian wrongdoing and not prerogative towards a broader world war or a broader confrontation between russia and nato. this can be just indicating that we are serious. this is a threshold that we can't tolerate. biological weapons or nuclear weapons against another country especially by russia against agreement when ukraine gave up the nuclear weapons. russia was supposed to be a

guarantor of security and that the weapons of mass destruction wouldn't be used against ukraine. there is basis so it doesn't spiral into a broader confrontation. it is a red line and a realistic red line to not allow to pass uncontested. >> let me show you my colleague lester holt put these questions to president zelenskyy in the interview yesterday. let me show you some of his answers on these topics. >> the u.s. administration raised concerns that russia might launch a chemical attack. do you think that would be a red line that the u.s. would move forward to be active involved in combat? >> translator: if they launch the missiles against schools, universities, now that is a cross of every single line. what else should we wait for?

>> i just like to be cautious when -- i know you are more cautious and thoughtful than just about anyone but for our consumption talking about red line as the president said babies are targeted and cal perry reported at the beginning of the week from dehydration and starvation. what concerns you or what counsel do you have as the west engages in with the definition of a red line is and is not? >> yeah. i think there's still some wishful thinking about how this infolds. we caught up with the reality that this is headed to a protracted war and the ukraines continue to resist, continue to destroy large portions of the russian military and russia backed into a corp.er to. we're still in this mindset that it's going to continue on the way we see it right now.

this is frankly been an area of criticism from me is too shortsighted. our approach to supporting ukraine is incremental. we should give the systems in the last 24 hours is excellent. exactly what they need and need more. more capable systems. and we are going to get to the point to open up the flood gates and going to take another catastrophe before we get there. i think we need to be more thoughtful about how this is going to unfold based on what we know right now and take more risk informed actions that are not provocative but are metered to understand that the russians are not suicidal. they don't want a broad every war with nato having a hard time with ukraine. >> i want to bring you in on that, jack. this is something we talked about. we talk about the coverage of the conversation about

escalation. i saw u.s. senator sasse talking about the framework of what colonel vindman is saying if every proposal is pushed through the prism of a provocation then you tie your hands behind your back. if it is not you may start world war iii. is the ukrainian public, the civilian population, now so literally shell shocked, so literally traumatized that that debate falls on deaf ears? tell me if we have stopped tracking with what they call for and willing to do. >> so i think the debate that the ukrainian public is having and the debate that the american government and the american media is having are two completely different things. >> i have that feeling. >> right? the ukrainian public obviously overwhelmingly almost every person there are of course calling for a no-fly zone.

any possible solution to find to alleviate the horrific conditions they are subjected to and zelenskyy. he has to call for a no-fly zone and needs to ask for as much help as he is going to get. it would be political suicide and it would be in some ways a betrayal of constituents asking for this if he did not do that. but on the other side of this, the u.s. government and i think almost every party in this besides some circumstances the white house press corps understands the ramifications. i have to disagree that we could do a no-fly zone or militarily strike russian targets in ukraine without it being an escalation. if nato assets were to engage directly with russian assets. that takes the conflict into a

different realm. ukrainians say that world war iii has begun. >> and already in the realm. >> i don't think i share that view but i understand it from the ukrainians and the hard thing in the united states is that we have to own the decisions that we make. and we have to say why we make the decisions and then we have to own the ramifications of those whether that is further provocation or holding the ground and not escalating this conflict but realizing that that's going to mean more pain and suffering for ukrainians. >> i will give you a chance to respond but i guess you would add owning the consequences of the unthinkable of a chemical attack in the ukraine or worse. >> it is a mischaracterization to advocate for a no-fly zone. there are plenty of things to do to that are withen the rules of the game as played. game is probably the wrong word

but proxy wars that the u.s. engaged in where we supported our allies in a significant enough way where they could ultimately achief the objectives. we need to get the missiles coming in important but russians operate without consequences. firing the missiles without consequences. we could provide more equipment. what my objective would be is to establish a no-fly zone. arm them with the medium and long range defense systems and i also absolutely underscored that the thing that is we thought unacceptable weeks ago are completely acceptable today. we are going to find ourselves in a situation weeks and months from now with the atrocities and a chemical strike that we were going to have to take more

action. we might not realize it now and want to avoid it with the risks of escalation. we will get there. we need to recognize that the decisions are easy now and get harder now and need to think through how to conduct the operations. if russia launches a chemical strike and may need to target where the origins of the chemical munitions came from. we should think about how to do that and message that and conduct the operations. they need to lead to world war iii. the russians are not suicidal. the russians understand that they're already bogged down in ukraine. they won't look for something provocative. it's just that simple. >> simon, something that you have been covering is something that i know they spend time

talking about in ukraine and that is they'll take help from whomever and wherever and why the address to the german parliament. you saw foreign fighters flooding into the country. >> yeah. there's assistance from all over the world. there's aid coming through and big convoys which is how i got in. there's a whole lot of military aid coming in. a dozen or more flights a day with massive american c-17 cargo planes bringing -- just stuffed with weapons going to ukraine and as colonel vindman said there's many different ways to close the skies by providing them with the missiles that the u.s. has and that's happening. being on the border one thing i saw is the u.s. and allies are already entering this war with

these weapons supplies. and as you mentioned the other thing i saw is foreign fighters. volunteers that have come from all over the world. met some from australia, the uk, the u.s. some are coming to train ukrainian volunteers who are signing up to fight. so these are people who usually have a military training themselves. and they're coming and volunteering. russia does apparently see that as a provocation. >> never mind that they have their own -- >> that's right. right. the russians are recruiting in sish yeah, central african republic. anywhere to get fighters to help them. this is not an organized effort as far as i can tell on the border. people trying to buy bullet-proof vests wherever they could. helmets and but the reason i say that russia clearly sees this as

a serious provocation is that russia did attack the base in the far west of ukraine where these fighters were gathering for an orientation training and to be sent out where they're needed most. that base was attacked. i talked to men there and described pulling bodies from the rubble. when russia decided to attack the base they had to understand that americans were very likely to be injured or killed. so that was russia's response to seeing some of these foreign volunteers coming in. >> there's the escalation and provocation. we'll fix your microphone. i think some of simon's reporting goes a distance toward articulating the point you are making that we don't know what

we don't know and from russia's side certainly again knowingly or coincidentally an escalation, an attack on a place where u.s. soldiers had been. >> that's true and also signaled the fact that we expected the american citizens to withdraw from that country because we were not going to be drawn into a confrontation with russia over american citizens that were going to be killed in ukraine that remained. the russians had good confidence this was not going to be provocative of a larger confrontation. we need to muddy that water for them and around the use of chemical weapons against ukraine and say that this -- we don't have to put a bright red line there but to say this would reshape the thinking about u.s. and nato involvement. right now it is entirely the

u.s. is no interest. nato has no interest to be involved. russians ratchet up the tension. there's a threshold beyond which there's an obligation to humanity to support or prevent the proliferation or use of weapons of mass destruction. we need to start muddying the water and comply kating the russian decision making. >> the decisions are going on in the government. thank you for spending time with us. jack and simon stick around. a closer look at the situation on the ground from what journalists that spent weeks there in the country. plus back to lviv. the bombing of food storage warehouses which was as far as we know intentional is making the humanitarian crisis much worse. the struggle to feed thousands of people. jacob soboroff will be inside

the kitchen with volunteers working around the clock to do so. the babies being cared for hidden away in basements as the russian onslaught continues. the story of the heroes working to keep them alive and healthy and happy and free from trauma. all those stories and more when we continue after a quick break. stay with us. ♪ ♪ introducing the all-electric chevy silverado rst. the only ev truck that combines: 4-wheel steer a multi-flex midgate and up to a 400-mile range on a full charge and the only way to reserve it is at chevy.com. find your future. find new roads. if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans

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>> translator: you are not behind the berhe min wall but the middle of europe. you are living in freedom, the politicians, the german people.

how is it possible when we told you that the russians were preparing weapons and troops and we knew that we were preparing -- they were preparing for war but all you cared was the economy. >> ukraine's president zelenskyy invoked the holocaust accusing germany of prioritizing economic ties with russia. we're back with jack and simon. i don't know if anyone's done it yet. i trust one of you will. the zelenskyy speeches have been -- they have been powerful, purposeful, poetic. i'm guessing. you tell me. channelling the growing anger and desperation of the ukrainian people. >> and abilities as a showman and actor. he was a professional actor

before becoming president in 2019. this was the first time to run for president. we met a few times and it's not until now that it becomes clear how effective the showmanship can work. these speeches that we're seeing recently he knows the audience. so when he spoke before congress, rerpss pearl har bonn and 9/11. speaking to germany referencing berlin wall. pushes the buttons he knows will get the reaction to get the aid that the country needs and smart. very impressive to see but not surprising the experience that the team has in working in show business and addressing audiences. he was a celebrity in russia and ukraine. so he knows how to adjust to

audiences and speak to the people. >> i'm guessing that you acknowledge the showmanship doesn't show up something that isn't there and what's spl there is a man that refuses to leave kyiv, like magnetically drawn to the troops. giving them medals. >> that's right. there's no faking that courage and bravery. if people had any doubts. ukrainians did have doubts about his abilities as a leader before this invasion started a few weeks ago. the approval ratings were not good and dropped throughout the time in office but i think when he made that decision to stay and just taking enormous risks putting out the videos in rooms where we meet for interviews and

there without a vest. speaking to the camera addressing the people and the leaders. incredibly brave. yeah. the courage that it took to remain in kyiv has been a huge boost to morale for military, the public and an inspiration to the foreign leaders that he is addressing. >> inspiration and a fire poker. our president exceeded expectations in terms of marshalling a quick and aggressive sets of sanctions and rushing weapons into the country but he is like a red hot poker to more, more, more. >> yeah why it is remarkable how quickly that turn around happened. because i think there's especially seeing what happened there's criticism to the lead up to the invasion and managing information within the country. but i think one of the biggest

mistakes the russian military made was not taking down the ukrainian telecommunications network because that allowed zelenskyy to be online and on smartphones and everywhere. i was in a bomb shelter in kharkiv and scrolling through twitter to see the speeches and the rallying call to the nation on day three, four, five of the war and some said that the decision to stay in kyiv has been absolutely massive for the country. >> to your point today and earlier to keep the debate framed around the no-fly zone gets him everything up to the no-fly zone. there are shipments of weapons and things -- here's a list. i would read them if i knew what they all did but some of the

best technology. this is what we know about and sent over. to the point, the atrocities on the ground and the circumstances on the ground may move the world conversations. having been there what do you think in terms of how quickly things deter rated. >> we talk about chemical weapons and a reason the biden administration isn't setting the red lines as the obama administration did in syria. it is profound how much less palatable the audiences found this war versus similar campaign that is the russian military waged in other countries like syria but i think that the biden administration learned from

obama's mistakes there and setting red lines they weren't sure how to enforce. and it's terrible to think how much worse it could get and what the u.s. response would have to be. i'm glad i don't make those decisions but i think rushing ourselves into steps and making hard commitments before those things have happened is a recipe for unintended consequences. >> i think a lot of people starting to understand that while you all are eyes and ears and the government is proactive what they can and want to tell us there are things happening on the ground that we don't know about. i will ask you both to stay and switch gears to some of my colleague's reporting feeding ukrainians on the front line. nbc news inside a facility with meals to those trying to flee

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(music throughout) ask your doctor about living longer to see my ancestors' photos was just breathtaking. wow, look at all those! what'd you find? lorraine banks, look, county of macomb, michigan? oh my goodness... this whole journey has been such a huge gift for our family. this is one of the rooms where families are living. make shift. set up pads and mattress pads. seniors, women and children, infants. you can see this is what people are facing right now. >> feeding them all?

>> feeding them all. we have to. >> that's nbc news's jacob soboroff earlier. 1.8 million ukrainians internally displaced within ukraine since the war started. u.n. is warning for potential of emergency levels of hunger and malnutrition. let's bring in jacob soboroff. i saw the reports from this morning and some of the only happy people who had just been fed who felt like the shelters were providing something more than the food in their stomach but a sense of security which is clear is growing increasingly scarce there. >> reporter: yeah. i don't think there's anything more essential than something to eat especially when you're one of the millions as you said internally displaced people in

this country. they were warning before today. i was in the world kitchen storage facility and saying i can't tell you the audience where i am because the people here are worried it will be targeted by the russians. it turns out our colleague richard engel that the russians today bombed two separate food storage facilities on the outskirts of kyiv. that is happening right now. and it is a disruption perhaps the most critical disruption to human life that you could see here but there are counter forces that you could say in the battle to keep ukrainians fed. and probably at the forefront are both the world wood program and world central kitchen. the ngo by chef andre. i went inside the effort with both the executive director and the ukrainian partner here on the ground and that's what's so essential here.

watch this. have you operated in a war zone before? >> we vice president. we have in haiti and venezuela but of course this is a totally different environment. there is also the human factor of this tragedy that is very difficult both for our teams, partners. they are living through this. right? they are -- they are actively suffering right now. >> what's it been? like i said your attitude is so positive. but what has it been like to see your country go through this? >> it's difficult. difficult place. but i really know the ukrainian have this special power. >> reporter: you have such a big smile on your face in the middle of a war. >> that is my power. >> reporter: the smile is the power? >> anyway, you know, war is one side and if you are all crying you can't do anything.

when our enemy will see our smile i think it's also good for our power, too. >> wow. >> reporter: that's yulia, a ukrainian partner of world kitchen. she said the fork and a knife are the weapons against the russians. we have the air raid sirens every day. the last this morning and one of the things i woke up thinking about today is will those facilities be targeted? whether it is here or other cities in this country and richard's reporting proves that fact that they are here in ukraine. >> i'm thinking that this is not part of the humanitarian crisis war story. this is putin's battle plan to destroy the country. to literally starve them. i wonder how that changes if that sunk in to folks that you

met. >> reporter: 100%. when our president, president biden, says that vladimir putin is committing war crimes, secretary of state blinken said the same thing on the tape earlier, this is part of what they refer to. starving out the population. there is no greater cruelty than taking the one thing away that could keep civilians alive as there are battles in the streets in this country. it is what i think some of the many, many internally displaced people i have met here have at the forefront of the minds. sleeping in tents at the train station. find shelter. this evening i was at an apartment building where seven friends from kyiv live together. young professionals. those are the questions that they think about every day. am i going to survive? if i survive will i have something to eat on a daily basis? those are the things people here

think about. >> it is just amazing and 22 days ago i'm sure where are i going to eat next is not the question but what and which restaurant and who will i invite? stunning. so important. jacob soboroff, i'm so glad to get to share your reporting. stay safe. >> reporter: i appreciate it. how the images and the reporting from ukraine are impacting those making that brave sacrifice to tell us these stories. we turn to that next.

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♪ the harrowing images that you see, that we show you on this program from ukraine, are only possible because they are documented by brave journalists who are there to tell the story of the war and the abuses and the horrors. images like these in kyiv. this is a woman seeking shelter from russian artillery in the subway system. another salvaging what remains in her apartment after it was damaged by a russian rocket. these volunteer fighters recovering after helping defend a suburb outside kyiv. in a brand-new piece for "time," simon shuster documents the unimaginable risks being taken and the price paid by the ukrainian photographer who took those photos. he writes this. in the seconds before impact, mortars whistle as they fall, making a loud and almost

plaintive sound. maxim dondyuk will never forget. he will never forget the sting of their shrapnel object sight of the women and children he photographed during the shelling near kyiv on march 6th. he says this. quote, i do it because sometimes a photo can change people, change societies. with luck, he says, it might help stop a war. simon, we had lindsey on the day that the "new york times" put her photo of the whole family that was killed in irpin. i think you were here that day too. and we've all grieved alongside our friends over at fox news as they lost sasha, their journalist from ukraine and their camera person and they're praying for the recovery of their colleague. what is happening that we don't see? what risks are you guys taking? >> well, i mean, i want to put the spotlight on my colleague, maxim dondyuk, who we feature on

the cover this week, one of the covers we put out. >> let's put this up. >> yeah. he was injured while photographing, so he was on the scene north of kyiv, really close to the front line where refugees were escaping, and he was photographing them as they walked across a river along this kind of narrow walkway. and the russians started shelling. the russians started shelling, basically, the only way out for refugees out of that town, irpin, and the ukrainian soldiers who were there fell back. those were their orders, to fall back, because the shelling had begun but maxim and two other photographers who were with him stayed to document that and they stayed for about two hours as the shells were falling and only pulled back after a piece of shrapnel hit maxim in the shoulder and ripped off a piece of his flesh. i talked to him on the phone to convince him, take a break. this war is going to be with us, probably, tragically, for a long time. get some rest. but he's like, no, this is my pain.

this is my country. i need to document it, and i'm much more useful with a camera than a kalashnikov. >> is he out today taking pictures? >> i think so, yeah. he's in kharkiv today, last i spoke to him. >> oh my god. what is it that, despite your brilliant reporting from the country, we still don't understand about the ukrainian people? >> well, i think, you know, as your segment highlighted, i think it was really good. the woman, iulia there who works with world central kitchen, the optimism and the smiles. that's something i saw consistently. the optimism, the spirit, the morale among ukrainian people is enormous. the thing i hear most from them is, if we can make it through this war, if we can make it to the other side of this and survive as a country, with the leadership we have, in president zelenskyy, we will be stronger for it. we will be more united, and we will be -- have a much bigger chance of reaching the goal of integrating with the european

union and the west as ukraine has been trying to do. so, they have high hopes. i think the military successes that ukraine has had have really inspired people and have kept a lot of smiles on faces there, even though you'd expect a lot of despair. that, of course, does exist, especially in places that are surrounded and besieged like mariupol in the south, but a lot of the people i talk to, they really smile through the pain, and the ones who are helping, volunteering, cooking, filling sandbags, volunteering to fight have exceptionally high morale that really surprised me as i traveled around there. >> you saw the same thing? >> yeah. i mean, i've heard this time and time again from people. a woman i referred to in one of my later pieces, the woman who i rented a car from so i could leave the country, she texted me the other day, and she said, you know, make sure your colleague gets his credit card number for the deposit back. i'm off to the front line. and i said, what's happening? where are you going? and she said, i can't sit here any longer.

i want my son to live. i want him to have a life. she was sending me photos of her son, and she said, i've signed up. i'm going to fight. i need to finish my work here and then go. and so, this is very much a people, you know, my colleague who reports for foreign policy had a piece about mariupol earlier and there was a quote in there from a woman saying something along the lines of, we see this destruction, but we know that we are going to be here to rebuild it. someone will have to be here to rebuild it, and we are going to be the people to do that. and i think that's a sentiment shared kind of across the country. >> i've said this to you before. i'll say it to both of you. the debt that we owe you from the comfort of these studios for bringing these stories and bringing them to life for us is something we'll work the rest of our lives to repay. thank you so much for being there and telling these stories. jack crosby, simon shuster, we thank you. all those photos we showed were taken by the feature -- by the subject of this reporting. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a

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local officials have told families to leave their dead relatives lying outside on the streets, exposed to the world, because it is simply too dangerous with the bombs and shellings to hold funerals. russia will be held accountable for its atrocities. there's only one way, one way to end this madness. president putin, stop the

killing. withdraw your forces. leave ukraine once and for all. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york, 11:00 in kyiv. as the war in ukraine enters its fourth week, you just heard there from someone who's going to become very familiar if she isn't already, united states ambassador to the united nations, ambassador linda thomas-greenfield, calling out in plain and direct terms the horrors in ukraine at the hands of russia. vladimir putin, as he continues the strikes and civilian areas. food storage facilities in kyiv were hit. it's a sign that moscow may now be deliberately attempting to starve the city and country into submission. this afternoon, the u.s. state department confirmed the death of a u.s. citizen from shelling in the town of cherihniv and no place is a better than we've seen today of the growing humanitarian calamity than the port city of mariupol, where yesterday we told you about the bombing of a theater that was being used to shelter about

1,000 people. many of them children and families. the russian word for "children" was even written in big white letters in front and behind the theater. rescuers began pulling survivors out of the rubble there. the number of those killed in that attack is still unknown at this hour. the situation in the city of mariupol remains critical. a quote from a recent message on telegram from the city council, more than 350,000 residents continue to hide in shelters and basements, they say. on average, 50 to 100 air bombs are dropped on the city per day. the council also notes that according to preliminary estimates, about 80% of the city's housing is destroyed, of which almost 30% cannot be restored. while the damage from the missile and air strikes from russia is immense, at an operational level, russian forces are finding success elusive. an assessment by britain's defense ministry says this. quote, russian forces have made

minimal progress on land, sea, or air in recent days, and they continue to suffer heavy losses. "the new york times" reports on a stunning estimate by american intelligence that more than 7,000 russian troops are dead. they've died in the last 20 days sense the invasion began. it's more than the total number of u.s. troops killed in iraq and afghanistan combined. yesterday, the pentagon assessed for the first time that russia is debating whether to send in replacement forces. replacement troops. meanwhile, a setback in the optimism we heard here yesterday around a possible agreement between russia and ukraine. axios is reporting that sources on the ukrainian side fear moscow's new enthusiasm for diplomacy is a ruse. a fraud. joining us now, nbc news correspondent, cal perry, live for us once again in lviv, ukraine. cal, i don't have a specific question.

i guess what is coming through here is this combination of defiance in the unthinkable human horrors that are mariupol and something that is very much to type that some of these peace talks that we'd heard about yesterday may, in the view of the ukrainians, be a fakeout from the russians. >> reporter: yes. and you have, beyond just the targeting of civilians now, you have the russians clearly trying to target specific things like food security and medical help using those as weapons of war. whether or not that is to influence these talks, whether or not that is to force the president of ukraine to make concessions that he otherwise wouldn't, i think it's fairly obvious. these wouldn't be used as weapons of war unless you were trying to influence events on the ground. if we look at cities like kharkiv, and we spent a lot of time talking about mariupol, but if we look at kharkiv, they bombed a marketplace there today, a food market that is now

on fire there. you had richard engel's reporting from kyiv of this grain facility that was targeted. in chirniv, we had ten people standing in a bread line that were gunned down. these are purposeful targets by the russians that are trying to undermine the very survival of civilians that are already being bombed. you were talking last hour to colonel vindman about emotional targets and i was in georgia in 2008 and what colonel vindman was laying out was remarkable to watch in georgia as the russians rolled in, they kidnapped all these mayors, replaced them with puppets. we've had two mayors abducted in this war so far, but also the targeting of medical personnel and one of the things that you and i have been discussing is how this war is being presented to the ukrainian people. well, an emotional target seems to be iulia, a medic, 54 years old. it seems as though she was abducted yesterday near mariupol. those are the initial reports. we've talked a lot about mariupol. there are russian soldiers in a

hospital there. this is a woman who was part of the revolution in 2014. she was in the downtown square in kyiv providing medical treatment to civilians. she then went to the east for eight years and was a part of that sort of front line against the russians. you have these emotional targets, as colonel vindman said, now being picked up by the russians. it's not clear under what circumstance or why except to say, when you put all this together, the bread lines, the medical facilities, the hospitals, and we should say 117 hospitals have been targeted, according to the ministry of health here. seven of them have been completely destroyed. 43 ambulances have been targeted in just 3 weeks. you start to see a pattern of behavior by russian troops that may be what is making up for these battlefield losses or this slow march we're seeing. it's playing out across the black sea. it's playing out in these northern cities where you don't have this aid going to, where you don't have the kind of visibility by international aid organizations to report on it.

and i think it's absolutely in direct relation to any kind of peace talks that are going to happen because again, the president of ukraine has to balance the sovereignty of this country with kids who are dying in basements. that's the brutal reality of what he has to do. and to stop the violence at any cost is going to be something that he is going to feel more and more pressure to, especially as hospitals are being targeted, especially as food is being targeted. the food security of this country is a serious issue. 5 million people are in need of immediate food right now and that's not including the folks in mariupol, the folks in kharkiv. that's the problem here. >> let me just broaden what you just painted, which is, i don't know the foreign policy term for, you know -- i can't swear here, but sadistic as all bleep. our president has used the more elegant term, war criminal. it seems to have the potential of doing two things that putin doesn't want, stirring the uprising in his own country, people have been taking to the

streets, there have been signs of protest on their state media newscasts. i understand that even access through telegram to news from the outside world is starting to contract in that country. but also, you know, you're there. you tell me. i mean, what i have come to understand in the last three weeks about the ukrainian people is that this could have the opposite effect. the emotional targets will deepen the emotional commitment to making sure that russia loses this war. >> reporter: yeah, there's a reason i'm sharing with you the story of this medic, because people are rallying around this. her nickname is taira and free taira is starting to trend here. it is absolutely having the opposite effect. i ordered a coffee, i turned to the person next to me and i said, what do you think about giving up ukraine? she said, after this, nato's going to want to join us. instead of us joining nato, nato's going to come to this country and want to join us because we have the weapons, we're on the front line. there is this rallying of support that's happened in

europe that i don't think anyone could have anticipated, let alone vladimir putin. i mean, europe has come to the aid of refugees in a way that is remarkable. we've talked about this, in a way they haven't in places like syria, but they have opened their doors to ukrainian refugees. the weapons that are flowing into this country, while it is not being advertised and it is not being shown to the media for all the obvious reasons they don't want those targets to hit, we know it is exceptional, and while we're always nervous to talk about the gains that ukrainian forces are making on the ground in stopping the russians, and we refer to them, and i think richard engel used the term, while they are admirable, these cities are still being shelled. they are admirable. they have stopped russian troops where they are. and so much so that along that back sea now, we're seeing an increase, according to courtney kube, of the naval forces around odesa. nobody could have expected that and certainly putin didn't have any idea that is what he was

going to face when he came into a country that is pillaging to conquer. that's the point about the hospitals and schools and targeting the bread lines. this is about conquering a foreign land to him. >> cal, this number that's out today, confirmed by nato and u.s. intelligence, of 7,000 dead russian soldiers is in line with the estimate -- i think the ukrainians gave us the figure 6,000 to 8,000 a couple days ago. i wonder, with it stipulated that it's difficult to get the truth into russia, i'm just thinking of president zelenskyy's message to the woman who held up the "no war" sign. i mean, is there an effort on ukraine's part to make sure the russians, even their friends and family in russia, understand that 7,000 people died in 20 days? >> reporter: we hear it from the president consistently on this telegram channel. he's trying to talk to the mothers of these soldiers. he goes out of his way to speak

in russian to them and to tell them this news, and not just that there is dying on a massive scale, and it seems to be these long convoys. we spend so much time talking about this 40-mile long convey and while we were talking about it, these turkish-made drones were strafing this column, and they were doing so undefended, and nbc news, there's an amazing article about how it's confounded these military experts who say the turkish drones should be easy to shoot down and jam and instead, they were just killing these russian troops. that's the kind of thing that is being mentioned by ukrainian officials in russian to try to tell the mothers of these soldiers, this is what is happening to your sons. and we've talked about also how it's not just the explosions that are killing civilians. it's not just explosions that are going to be killing russian troops. the conditions are brutal, and it's not clear that they have the fuel that they need to keep these vehicles running at night in these cold conditions. and our pentagon colleague, again, courtney kube, talking about the supply lines.

they don't have modern military supply lines operating in a way that the u.s. military would. this is a crude war that feels like it's from another time, and i think that's what president zelenskyy is trying to tell, again, russian mothers of these soldiers. >> that's amazing. we understand it so much better because of you and your reporting. nbc's cal perry in ukraine for us. thank you so much for starting us off. again, please stay safe, my friend. >> thank you, nicole. joining our coverage, former cia director john brennan is here. he's now an msnbc senior national security intelligence analyst and john heilemann is back, nbc news and msnbc national affairs analyst, host and executive producer of showtime's "the circus" and the executive editor of the recount. he was here just back from his trip to the border countries of poland and you were somewhere else, john heilemann. you were in estonia as well, right? >> yes, i was. good to be back, nicole.

>> nice to see you, my friend. director brennan, i want to start with you on something cal perry said about the weapons flowing into this country, into ukraine. and i want to ask you, i want to ask you a question. it seems that president zelenskyy and every ukrainian official john interviewed a member of ukrainian parliament who said the same thing. i've interviewed ukrainian citizens and government officials, said the same thing. they want america to protect the skies over ukraine. it would appear that everything up to that is still more than what they had when this war began, and i wonder if you think our national security policy objective is to protect the skies over ukraine without stepping foot in ukraine. is that the aim of these massive lists of weapons systems that, unless you're a defense contractor, i'm not sure you even know what all these things are. >> i think that's exactly the aim, nicole. i think the biden administration is trying to make the air space

over ukraine exceptionally dangerous for russian aircraft to operate in. by providing these advanced anti-aircraft systems, stingers, other types of both manned portable weapons systems as well as vehicle-mounted weapons systems, the ukrainians are having tremendous success against the russians, both in the air and on the ground. it was pointed out the turkish drone system, the tb-2 is taking out a lot of tanks and weaponized units stuck on the road in ukraine so with the announcement yesterday by president biden of the additional $800 million or so worth of weapons going in, i think we want to maintain that supply and increase it so that we give ukrainian forces the wherewithal that they can stop the russian forces on the ground as well as to prevent the russians from operating with impunity in the skies, and i must say, the ukrainians have been quite inspirational from the standpoint of their

resilience in the face of this russian onslaught. >> i mean, and john heilemann, you and i had the conversation with former ambassador to ukraine, bill taylor, about the skill and acumen and readiness of this ukrainian military. it seems that that continues to be this x factor in both the unbelievable number of russian deaths, 7,000 troops dead, as a conservative figure, as reported by "the new york times." as well as the constant flow of not just resupplying these weapons but enhancing and improving their capabilities. having just been to the region, it feels important to remind everyone that that is a global effort as well. not just coming from us. >> yeah. yes. i mean, it's a global effort, and i'll say, nicole, that all the things that director brennan just said are true, and additionally, and as one of the points that you hear in the nato countries in places like estonia where i was and in poland and other places, is that it's not -- it's obviously there's a

huge amount of weaponry that's flowing across these borders under the radar, literally and figuratively, to arm the ukrainians, and the upgrades, the additional spending is really important, but here's your point, i think, the key. the flow of arms started long before this war, and i mean, long before this war. years before this war. nato started the supply and kind of an unprecedented way over the course of the last six to eight years in ukraine, and so the soldiers there are not just getting a flood of weaponry, but they're getting a flood of weaponry now on top of weapons that they have been training with, learning to use over the course of years, and a lot of those, when i talked to thees toneian prime minister, she pointed this out. she said, it goes unremarked how much was done over the course of a longer period of time that created a situation of greater preparedness and readiness on the part of the ukrainian fighters than most people appreciated, and again, a lot of that aid, some of it was quite public, some of it was less

public, but it's kind of set the stage for what is people starting to, not -- i mean, everyone has to start by saying, look, the russian military is so much bigger than the ukrainian military. they will never be a match, no matter how much, unless nato gets directly involved, they'll never be a match but they're fighting in a way that's raised the specter, amid auto horrors and atrocities going on, and the civilian life being lost and the war crimes that are happening, there's now people starting to whisper the possibility, you know, maybe the ukrainians can win? maybe they can win this? and by winning doesn't mean -- it means drawing to the -- to a standstill where it becomes unwinnable to russia and they know that it's unwinnable, and then you have a question of how to negotiate your way out. >> yeah, i mean, look, i think that this is so dark, but i think this expectation has benefitted the ukrainians in a

sort of psy-op kind of manner, is that putin's expectation was that ukraine would fall and it seems to have trickled down to the morale of his troops, that -- to the degree they even knew what they were doing, director brennan, they didn't think they were going to war in a prolonged manner in ukraine, a country that their leader, vladimir putin, describes as a land made up of their brothers and sisters. i want to understand, in your view, how all of those things, you would assess, are playing into what we're seeing. i want to start with something that president zelenskyy said about how this war will go. and to john heilemann's point of sort of the definitions of winning is losing. let me play this first. we don't have it. we're going to find this. this is president zelenskyy, asked by lester, if kyiv falls to the russians, does the entire country fall to the russians? president zelenskyy says this. our people are unconquerable.

this is what our people have clearly demonstrated. here it is. let me play this. >> if kyiv falls to the russians, does the entire country of ukraine fall to the russians? >> translator: well, our people are unconquerable. and this is what our people have clearly demonstrated. you can conquer the city. you can break the heart, but you won't be able to force anyone to love someone. that is why the heart will always remain with ukrainians. >> i mean, it's poetry, director brennan, and also is the articulation of a never-ending insurgency on the part of president zelenskyy there. >> well, the ukrainians know they're fighting a righteous war against this invading russian force, so therefore, it has given them the wherewithal and in terms of the inspiration that

is needed like a leader from zelenskyy. the russians are not going to be able to take kyiv. i think that the ukrainians are going to continue to repulse these inroads. i mean, the russian forces, as you pointed out, 7,000 dead, twice that many injured, and with the devastation of a lot of their forces coming in, they are a weakened and bloody force. and this is a conscript force, and we have a lot of reports about russians who are surrendering, who are just abandoning their vehicles and going into the forests. and so, i think the russian -- the ukrainian people know, and the ukrainian forces know that they are humiliating not just the russian military but vladimir putin. and i think that gives them, in fact, the type of energy that they need to continue to fight to the bitter end, and i do think that the ukrainians are going to prevail over time, and the longer this goes on inside of ukraine and the bloodier it gets for russia, the more difficult it's going to be for vladimir putin, combined with the international isolation and the stranglehold that international institutions have

now on russia, i think this is something that putin sees going in a very negative direction for him, so i do think he's probably going to pursue a double track here, trying to continue to make inroads but also feigned interest in negotiations as a way to resupply and to replenish his troops inside of ukraine. but i have no confidence whatsoever that russia would abide by any type of ceasefire negotiations or agreements that might, in fact, be forged. >> and that was the news that came out today, john heilemann, on the part of the ukrainians, that these peace talks could be a ruse. >> look, i mean, here's the -- there's the optimistic -- there's no optimism in this moment, right? it's all dark, as you said, nicole. the optimistic view is the view that john brennan and i have both been saying, well, the ukrainians have been heroic and fought and they might be able to keep russia from ever being able to take kyiv, let alone all of

ukraine. the pessimistic scenario, which a lot of american policymakers are thinking about, is the biden administration is, is quagmire. stalemate. no one right now thinks that the ukrainian -- no matter what you do, again, without direct intervention by nato, thinks the ukrainian defenses can actually drive russia out, drive them out militarily, right? so, that's a recipe for either some kind of negotiated -- it's a negotiated end to the war, which would mean putin would have to accept that. and what are the terms of those things? are they acceptable? can you trust them? et cetera, et cetera. all those questions. or it's quagmire, and you know, i'm old enough to just barely remember what a quagmire looked like for america. we fought in vietnam in something that looked like a quagmire. the russians fought in a quagmire in afghanistan for many years and if vladimir putin, depending on the question of his domestic political support, does that crumble? is he able to continue to suppress it? do the sanctions bite enough that his country turns on him? that's a pivotal question at

that point, because it doesn't seem like vladimir putin is looking to sue for peace any time soon, and so until that moment comes, for whatever sort of reasons, you're looking at more devastation and more ugliness that could play out for weeks and months with neither side really being able to conclusively win. >> just at a human level, it's just unimaginable. i want to ask both of you about what john's talking about. whether or not putin is taking on real water in terms of his support in his country. we have to sneak in a break. director brennan and john heilemann stick around. still ahead for us, it's the big question in kyiv and in washington. we've been talking about it all afternoon. what does ukraine need and what is america prepared to give? we'll talk to a member of ukraine's parliament about what many fear could be the unintended consequences if nato takes on a bigger and more public role in the war in ukraine. and later in the program, the plight of newborn babies, born to surrogate moms, and cared for by volunteers as

russian bombs fall all around them in ukraine. the latest on what is being done to take care of them, to rescue them. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. eadline whis after a quick break. (music throughout) people with moderate to severe psoriasis, are rethinking the choices they make like the splash they create the entrance they make, the surprises they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla.

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we believe china in particular has a responsibility to use its influence with president putin and to defend the international rules and principles that it professes to support. instead, it appears that china is moving in the opposite direction by refusing to condemn this aggression while seeking to portray itself as a neutral arbiter and we're concerned that they're considering directly assisting russia with military equipment to use in ukraine.

>> that's secretary of state blinken speaking to the concerns about china's involvement with russia. following news today out of the white house that president biden will speak with china's president tomorrow, they have the first talks between the two leaders since the war began. we're back with john brennan and john heilemann. director brennan, you know, i think you know better than anybody that inside the white house, there's so much that happens behind the scenes and that this hard work of diplomacy is sometimes preventing something bad from happening. tell me if that's the right way to look at our relations with china. >> well, i think that there's an effort under way to both publicly signal to china that its position on russia's invasion in ukraine is unacceptable but also to send private messages, as we saw jake sullivan met with his counterpart recently in europe, and now there's going to be this discussion between presidents biden and xi, and so therefore, i think it's made very clear that the united states is trying

to demonstrate leadership of nato and of the western world. in terms of being at the forefront of confronting china as well as other countries that are supportive of what russia is doing. and so therefore, i think it's going to be very, very important for president biden to send a very clear message to president xi that there are steps that we can take if china decides to support russia materially in any way, and so therefore, i think it's -- again, it's the right thing for president biden to do, and president xi, i think, now realizes that the cake walk that i think he was expecting based on what putin was telling him about the invasion of ukraine was not really a cakewalk and now there's a quagmire, as john heilemann accurately said, so i think it's making president xi's position on this uncomfortable for him, particularly since he has his party congress coming up later this year where he's hoping he's going to be re-upped in terms of his presidential position. >> you know, john heilemann, the

solemn nature of what your reporting on your trip and what director brennan is talking about has changed the political discourse. it hasn't fixed it in this country. there's plenty of toxic sludge anywhere you look, but this question doesn't get better for republicans. i guess, you know, they're banging on that putin is better than biden door for years now. that seems to be closed forever with the war crimes, except for the fringiest of fringy. with the human atrocities that -- right? but i mean, and i guess my question is, if china aligns itself with a war criminal, someone that 90% of americans see as evil, it seems that it will necessitate a real recalibration in our politics as well. >> well, for sure. i would say, you know, there

definitely has been a shift in the republican party since those early days right before the war when you had ridiculous and offensive things being said by the former president, the former secretary of state that were lauding president putin right at the moment he was invading ukraine. there's been a recalibration. even the nuthouse right like marjorie taylor greene is trying to figure out a way to not be seen as close to vladimir putin. there's a moral clarity to this moment, and the moral clarity has also produced political clarity, and most of the republican party. i will say, we still have the most popular man on cable news still spouting kremlin talking points and still trafficking in russian disinformation. again, i don't like to say his name, but you know who i'm talking about. >> exactly. >> that guy. >> tucker carlson. >> used to wear a bow tie. so it's not fully -- it's not fully on the fringe, unfortunately. i think the other -- on the china point -- on the china point, i think the other thing that director brennan alludes to various things that are making xi uncomfortable. i'll tell you what i think is also making xi uncomfortable and

it goes to your point, which is, what are we seeing in western europe right now? nato is more important than it's been, i would say, probably since the fall of the soviet union. >> right. >> and the nato alliance has been strengthened and solidified and unified, and every nato -- small nato country, estonia, lithuania, latvia, all those countries are thanking their lucky stars that they had their nato membership card. they feel -- they go to bed with it every night. they wake up in the morning and think, it's not -- it might not stop vladimir putin from doing something crazy but i'm really glad to have that nato membership and there's going to be a lot of european countries banging on the door, louder than ever, to get into nato. so what does that mean? if western europe, which has tried to toggle between western, eastern, and central europe has toggled its affections between the united states and china, if they are being pushed by all of this into the arms of the united states and that alliance, the western alliance is being strengthened, that is also bad

news in the long run on the geopolitical and geostrategic stage for china and i can't help but think that's another thing that's giving xi the willies at this moment. not only was he misled by vladimir putin, but that this may be playing out in the longer game, which is how the chinese think about these things, in the longer term, this may be turning out to not be in china's long-term interests or how it perceives its long-term interests or how it thought things were going to unfold in the months and years ahead. >> we will look for the willies in those official readouts of these foreign leader calls. john heilemann sticks around. director brennan, thank you so much for spending some time with us. we'll continue to call on you as this unfolds. when we come back, a member of ukraine's parliament on how far the biden administration should go to help her country, even if it risks igniting a wider war. if it risks igniting der war.

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as a central feature in president zelenskyy's address to congress yesterday, and again and again, ukrainian officials are pleading with the west and the u.s. to close the skies over their war-ravaged nation. beyond anti-aircraft weaponry, what they would like includes fighter jets, a request the white house has so far avoided. but some lawmakers are now pressuring the administration to take that step. here's common jason crow, a democrat, talking to our friend, jim palmeri. >> the administration has been loath to allow a mig swap. why are you willing to suggest

that the administration take a risk that they think is not in our interest? >> everything in war has a risk. action has a risk. but inaction has a risk. and the cost of an action, the cost of not doing enough and having a nascent, growing democracy in eastern europe die and be conquered by force by a dictator and his army has implications around the world. it will destabilize the world. we'll set a precedent that other dictators will follow and will work towards dismantling this post-world war ii infrastructure and order that has led the peace and prosperity in the 70-plus years since the end of world war ii. that's what's at stake and that's the risk. >> joining us now is a member of ukraine's parliament. john heilemann is with us. i didn't understand why you were in washington until i saw your interview on john heilemann's program, "the circus," with his

colleague, alex wagner this weekend. tell us how you ended up in washington and what you left behind in ukraine. >> well, i happen to be in the united states when the war started. i was in texas. so, i literally took the first flight to d.c. because i realized i have to be here, i have to do the best i can for my country. i have to speak to your -- to the decision-making people here because to be honest, and that's what i keep telling them, unfortunately, the lives of ukrainian citizens, of my friends, because i already have people that i know personally that died in this war, depend on their decisions here, and that's why it's personal for probably every ukrainian now because you know someone who died, someone who was shot, killed, bombed, shelled, you cannot just get in touch with some relatives or your friends who are now in mariupol, for example. so, i keep going around with exact -- with the exact list of ukrainian needs from the united states and support. talking about the no-fly zone or

the arms that can provide this no-fly zone. we are grateful for the help that was announced yesterday, for the air defense that is going to be provided, but to be honest, we need the jets, because only the jets can put down the jets, and what happened yesterday in mariupol, when we had a thousand people hiding in the bomb shelter under the -- under the former theater, there was huge signs, in russian, saying, children, so that any pilot from the sky can see that. unfortunately, this building was destroyed, and we had a thousand people underneath that we cannot get out. to get the pilots like that who are shooting our children, bombing our children, we need to get the jets. and unfortunately, as i see so far, there has been no political decision to provide ukraine with migs or su-25, the smaller jets that can protect our children from being bombed to death. >> oleksandra, we played the

clip. the program airs on sunday but that's a prominent democratic congressman, open to the jets. i know there are other democrats in the intelligence community and others that are open to the jets. what happens in your conversations? are you prevailing with them? and tell me how that would work. >> to be honest, i see the biggest support now coming from the congress, and i think the congress and the american people are those who are pushing the executive branch for certain actions to be taken, because on the first package of sanctions came out, and we saw there was an exemption for oil and gas, to say that i was surprised, because this is what's fueling russian economy, is to say nothing. and that's why the russians stock exchange was positive. it grew after the sanctions were announced. we see this now changing, so we have an embargo on oil and gas. we see stronger sanctions on the banking system. and i hope -- i really hope that the congress and the american

people who are fully supportive of protecting the ukrainians, we've seen the polls. 74% of americans say that the u.s. has or nato has to provide a no-fly zone for ukraine. we think that at some point the administration will have to take this decision and provide us with jets and more air defense systems. but the problem is -- and that's exactly what the congressman was talking about. every inaction has a cost. unfortunately for ukraine, this is the cost of thousands of lives. and thousands of lives of our civilians, our women, our children because we have our women raped now, then killed. we have our children dying under those -- in those bomb shelters with no food and water and they wouldn't even let our volunteers go in. so i understand that the executive branch, unfortunately, is not ready to take the decisions, and they keep saying that putin has to do something worse for him to cross the red line. well, i keep asking them, putin

keeps setting you the red lines, like, don't get give them the jets or it's going to be an escalation. what's going to be next, don't give them water or food? i think the nato countries that are very strong now and united for ukraine, that the u.s. has to be leading now and telling putin what is the red line for him. so if he crosses this red line, if he kills one more child in ukraine, because to be honest, i don't think the child in ukraine is different from a child from any nato country. and we have to speak openly about it. where is the red line for putin that he needs to cross for the western countries to take action? >> john? >> oleksandra, i know you hear this all the time when there's a discussion whether it's of the jets or a discussion of a full no-fly zone, or all along the discussion about nato coming to ukraine's assistance in a direct way, which has been off the table in nato ever since day one, although, you know, all

things are subject to change. at some point in the future. but when you hear the west -- what the west says, not just president biden, but others, they say, these are the things we can't do without risking a wider war. and i guess the question i have for you is whether you think, as you look at the way this war is unfolding right now, whether a wider war is inevitable in order to save ukraine? >> so, thank you so much for the question. my first answer would be, can you tell me what's the difference between providing ukraine with stingers that shot down the helicopters and providing us with jets that shoot down the jets? we already have javelins. we have stingers. and when putin came to know that we might get the jets, he started dictating the west, the u.s. and nato countries like poland, that this shouldn't be done. but to be honest, we already had the weapons to shoot down some of the aircrafts like helicopters. we already have more than 50 -- we have 86 jets that we already

put down with our own jets, but we are unfortunately running out of those. so, when i hear about this war, this world war iii, let's be -- let's talk directly how it is being called now. i think if putin wants to go into war, he will. because ukraine never escalated. in 2014, when he invaded ukraine and took crimea and donbas, we were a neutral country. we had no intentions for nato, and the majority of population did not support ukraine joining nato. actually, we had more support for nato after he invaded so when he keeps saying ukraine is a threat for the russians because it might become a nato country, this has nothing to do with the reality. he will come up with any other idea and the same for nato and the united states. so if this psychodecides to go into war, he will. he will shoot poland or one of the baltic countries, because it's easier, they're smaller and faster to be invaded.

i hope he's not planning on that. he's now testing how far he can go, because one of the missiles, two days ago, ended up less than ten miles from the polish border. we already have drones in romania. and i don't think putin is so crazy that he wants a total destruction for moscow and because i have never seen nato been so united as it is now and so strong. everybody's looking at defense budgets. but to be honest, if he got so nuts, it's going to be his decision, unfortunately, not yours, because so far, he's the one setting up the rules. >> thank you both so much for the conversation. when we come back, the plight of perhaps the most innocent humans, newborn babies, born to surrogate mothers in ukraine and big questions about how and when and where their parents can come

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amongst those at risk of being trapped in the capital are scores of surrogate babies. there are so many the nursery is a constant hub bub of crying demands for attention. the babies are being cared for in a basement which has been turned into an underground

shelter by a very small team of babysitters. these women have left their families to look after these little ones, after the babies' actual parents couldn't reach them because of all the fighting. >> that was from some extraordinary reporting from our sky news colleague, alex crawford, showing the nannies, the ukrainian nannies keeping these babies born to surrogate moms safe. several nurses have stayed behind to care for those babies who were born to surrogate mothers and whose biological parents are desperate because of the war unable to reach them. some of the most extraordinary reporting on the story was first on "the new york times" by correspondent andrew kremer who we are very pleased to have join us today. he's live for us in kyiv. this is one of those stories that i saw the headline and i couldn't bear to read it. i don't know where i was. i sat down and read it and just cried at the -- just epitomizing

and captures the innocence caught up in a war zone. take me inside what you have reported. >> sure, thank you very much. well, i have reported on the ukrainian surrogacy industry before the war. and this was something that obviously was very concerning when we heard the reports about this basement shelter for about 20 surrogate babies. and it's in a courtyard of a building, you walk down some steps and inside is the basement with tubs of formula for the babies, a diaper changing station, sterilizer for bottles and bibs and swaddles. so there's everything that's needed to care for the babies, but as you said, it's indicative of the precariousness of life for a lot of ukrainians. they're innocent, they're vulnerable and it's hard to look at. >> andrew, the reporting made

clear that the biological parents in many instances are out of the country, and it seems that that is the x-factor here, that it could be a very long time before newborn babies could travel to the west and then out of the country. are they making plans to travel with the babies or are they too young? is it too unsafe? >> well, the international surrogacy industry depends on a careful choreography of legal assistance and travel. typically, the parents would arrive in kyiv and it would take about a month for the ukrainian system to establish their -- their role as a legal guardian and parent of the children, and than they would need to obtain passports from their embassies. because the embassies are now closed or evacuated and government offices are closed as well, the children really have no citizenship and no legal

parents. so it's unclear how they would establish all these very complicated legal issues and that's one reason or possible reason why they haven't been evacuated to another country, because another jurisdiction may treat surrogacy differently and the children would not be able to be reunited with their biological parents. >> i imagine the biological parents are more desperate by the hour, perhaps the one thing that gives them some comfort is this extraordinary and heroic care they're getting from the nurses. i read in your story that some of them have family members that are desperate for their mothers or grandmothers or sisters to flee with them, and they won't. they are committed to these babies. tell us about that. >> sure. well, that's another aspect of the story here. we go out every day and we see a lot of victims, a lot of human suffering. but you also see the ukrainians are holding it together, and

these nannies are one example of that. they're concerned. excuse me. they're saying their own family members are encouraging them to leave. one nanny explained to me that her husband and her son are both soldiers, and both of these men in her family have encouraged her to leave because they want at least her to be safe, but she says she's determined to stay and be part of the team caring for these babies. you see a lot of -- a lot of self-organization in ukraine, a lot of people who are dedicated to what they feel they have to do to hold it together and get by in these circumstances. and these nannies are an example of that. >> andrew, we read everything that you reported on, and it's a pleasure to get to talk to you about this reporting in particular. please stay safe. >> thank you. >> quick break for us. we'll be right back. develop their passion for learning

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we have an update on a story we have covered here over the last few weeks. a court in russia today extended wnba star brittney griner's detention in that country until may 19th. that's according to russian state news agency tas. you'll remember griner, a seven-time wnba all star was detained one month ago today after officials there found vape cartridges containing cannabis in her luggage. at the airport near moscow. we will continue to update you as we learn more about that. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these really difficult, truly extraordinary times. we're so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber

starts right now. hi, ari. >> good to see you. thank you. welcome to "the beat," everyone. i'm ari melber and we're covering vladimir putin's offensive in ukraine. this is now the fourth week. there's new video captured from a drone that shows some of the black smoke billowing across a disturbingly red sky. russian artillery shells have killed 21 people in kharkiv just today. a school destroyed in the shelling. that's according to the sources we have on the ground, including a local prosecutor's office. according to the u.n., over 726 people have been killed since the invasion began. but that is likely an undercount. a kyiv apartment complex struck earlier this week by a downed rocket killed one person and injured three more. there are images that keep coming in. you see them online, on the news, and they are just gut wrenching. here we have a man with his head in his hands leaning over what we're told is his mother's body. grieving as others walk by and try to make it through their own civilian war zone, make it