age is just a number. and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health. versus 16 grams in ensure high protein. boost® high protein also has key nutrients for immune support. boost® high protein. ♪♪ hi there, everyone. happy friday. it is 4:00 in the new york. amid growing concerns that russia will escalate the already brutal war in ukraine with chemical or biological weapons, russian forces made it clear that no part of ukraine is safe from the brutal russian onslaught. lviv in western ukrainian was hit by russian missiles today.

the target a repair plant and in mariupol 130 people rescued from the rubble of a theater turned shelter hit by russian air strikes wednesday. more than 1,300 people including children are trapped in the basement. outside of ukraine high stakes and high profile diplomacy leaving russia more isolated on the world stage. president biden held a call with a man whom many believe could be the only man to rein in putin. xi jinping. the two spoke for nearly two hours and the administration said president biden laid out the implications and consequences should china decide to support russia's brutal war in ukraine. as they spoke vladimir putin held a massive rally in support of the war in ukraine and the eighth anniversary of annexation

of crimea. apparently on a stage with slogan for a world without naziism saying that russia would preclaim and claims of genocide forms the disinformation fueled alternate reality being spun by putin and the kremlin and designed to keep the russian people disinformed and in line. a brand new post in "the washington post" putting back the curtain. saying state-controlled news networks with different flavors of the same fare have been serving up putin spin on a war the government calls a special military operation. it was a necessary measure to save the people of the moscow-backed separatist regions in donbas and liberate the

nation from nazi authorities armed by reckless americans and the russian military is hitting only ukrainian military targets while its opponents are killing civilians. all of us with eyes know that is not true and "the new york times" adds this. quote the language of russia's invasion of ukraine is dominated by the word nazi. a puzzling assertion about a country whose president volodymyr zelensky is jewish and signed a law to combat anti-semitism. the slurs shows how putin is trying to use stereotypes, distortive reality and the lingering world war 2 trauma to justify the invasion of ukraine. starting the coverage nbc news correspondent ali arouzi live in ukraine. first the attacks, closer to you than on a normal day if there

are normal days in the 21-day war. tell me the impact of that, not just in terms of damage it did, but the damage it did to the sense of security in that city. >> reporter: that's right. lviv is meant to be a safe zone for so many of those waves of displaced people. for many the last place to go so that attack on the outskirts of the city on that air maintenance field shook people up. let me giver you a picture. ten past 6:00 the air raid sirens go off as they usually do. displaced filtered out of the hotels and apartments and go into the underground shelters. about 15 minutes later the sound of four loud explosions. the lviv skyline was then billowing with black smoke. so that shakes up residents here. they have already fled the war torn parts of the east of the

country, shelled heavily there. they think they're in relative safety of lviv and then an attack. as we have spoken on the nights before, the people so strong and stoic and doesn't let it upset them. people are back in the cafes, back in the streets playing music. playing a violin on the streets so the resilience is incredible amongst these people and shows how far west the russians are willing to hit. as you will remember last sunday a base way out west close to the polish border. now outskirt of live. people wonder if the incursion goes west could lviv be a major target and if it does where do they go who don't want to leave the country. >> you did incredible reporting today of folks working. it is taken this horrific turn

that children are not spared from the horrors of russia's attacks and did reporting today of people working to protect and save orphans. tell us about it. >> reporter: that's right. there's an american group here called aerial. they have come to help with the ukraine government. help the orphans that have been stuck in the battered east of the country. some of them in terrible conditions. so we went to the lviv train station. 58 orphan got off with an american group and ukraine carers to be taken to safety and i was really humbled by the kids. they have come from the war torn east. they have nobody. they have no parents. basically a family of orphans. not a single one of them was crying. they were smiling. i sat down to talk to them.

trying to play with each other and waited patiently in the queue for the bus. they had no food and layers of clothes and humbling to watch them. let's take a listen to what the volunteers had to say and fill you in more on the other side. >> we have had a couple incidents where in the schools the russians have come through some regions and several caregives were shot and killed and some children -- they have lost the family so it's pretty traumatic. this country, the people are just suffering at no fault of their own. it is horrible. >> the conditions down in bomb shelters, out of fear, some were in there for days, freezing cold and bad conditions. so it's good to get them out and let them see the sunlight.

great weather today and once into a safer area you see them let the guard down and relax. a little. as much as they can. >> reporter: so i have to stress nbc news can't independently verify the reports about the carers being killed. we got those from the people that were there. but you know, it falls in line with the brutality that the russians conducted here and again very hard to imagine these kids don't have any parents. when we talk to them there, the carers are like parents. bonded very closely with them so you're hiding in the basement of a home in the east of country. the carers come out to protect you. they get shot. you don't have parents. it is just inhumane what's happening to them. and then loaded on to a train, taken to lviv. they don't know what their next move is. extraordinary to see but the courage of these kids was

something else. we were all humbled by them. as i said not a single one was crying. but this is going to have deep, deep seeded scars for them. not only lost the parents, nobody in this world, but the people looking after you that you have grown so close to are gone and wonder to themselves what's next? none want to leave ukraine. this is their home. and everything remains uncertain for them. it is a really tragic situation. >> you answered what i was going to ask you, which is, where are they going? is this u.s. aid group trying to take them to poland to care for them or what is next for these children? >> reporter: they're going to stay here in lviv. that's the plan. they're going to stay here in lviv, care for them and give them shelter and warmth and read

them bedtime stories. that was a thing they told me that the kids want the carers to cuddle them. have a warm meal. once the fog of war settles hopefully soon then they can look into foster care and then look into adoption but they fear if they send them out of the country they'll become even more displaced. they could get lost. one of the really poignant things at the train station that one of the groups is telling me is they were constantly on the watch out for people traffickers because the kids are just so vulnerable. they could get nabbed, go missing and trying to keep them altogether. they don't want them to go to other countries and the plan keep them here and safe and figure out care. >> it is through your reporting that we i think are all processing the horrors of the russian tactics and strategies

in ukraine. ali, thank you so much. please stay safe. >> reporter: thank you. joining the coverage former u.s. ambassador to russia mcfaul and frank figluozi. i want to get into "the washington post" and "the new york times" today both have front page stories about not just the what of the disinformation that in many ways in some instances is propping up vladimir putin especially during this war, but how ingrained it is and how crucial it is and i want to understand it and want to press both of you and i think an instance of some of the problems existing here. i want to ask you about the mounting evidence that children seem to be fair game in terms of

vladimir putin's targets in this war in ukraine, ambassador mcfaul. >> it is horrific. it is awful to watch. president biden called him a war criminal. i'm not an international law expert but it sure seems criminal to me. it is part of a strategy. my ukrainian colleagues and those negotiating and close to the negotiations say that this strategy is to kill civilians, to put pressure on president zelenskyy to negotiate. because he can't defend these children and wants to end the war and save people and part of a strategy to force him to negotiate but the most horrific strategy i can remember. we saw this in chechnya. going back and looking at grozny if you google it and see it in 2000 and see that city was completely destroyed.

aleppo in 2016 as instances. this is on a scale bigger. not just one city but every city in this giant country including now lviv as you were just reporting on. >> i don't know that there are two people that we have access to who are more expert in putin's tactics. it feels like we discuss them in theory, in a vacuum. not as war arrived in ally's country as they bure ri the children and dislocated and moving the vulnerable population from one side of the country to the other. i want to understand something that confounds me from the beginning. what's the play with denazification, ambassador mcfaul? >> well, he knows that zelenskyy

is jewish, that zelenskyy's first language is russian. he learned ukrainian as a second language so you know. zelenskyy is born and raised in a part of ukraine that is very similar to just across the border in russia. he knows all that. zelenskyy and i talked about that when he visited stanford. putin says nazi because it has to do with world war ii. that was traumatic giant event, the most proudest moment in the history of the soviet union when they rightfully should be proud was the soviet citizens, russians, ukrainians, too, by the way, georgians, citizens of the soviet union defeated the nazis and trying to invoke this thing that evokes a lot of pride and honor among russian citizens

to say they're doing it again. it is completely false. i want to -- we'll dig in if you want to who believes this and who doesn't. i think it's wrong to assume that all russians believe this. they don't. that's why he is evoking world war ii to say we are doing this again and one more piece i think is important for americans to understand. this is american supported nazis. this is a proxy war against us as defined by putin. if you listen to the media that's the way they define it. they're liberating the ukrainians against a regime we the united states of america put in power in 2014. >> i think it's naive to think that disinformation has to come at people in a vacuum because there's nothing else to know or learn or see. i've asked that question a few

days ago and i have been informed that in this country 30% of americans, i think 80% of republicans think the other guy won the last presidential election. the existence of other information doesn't mean that someone's people won't believe it but i wonder your thoughts about the rally, about shutting down some telegram channels, about the new law. i think it is about one or two weeks old this friday. to criminalize anyone describing the war as a war. >> you know, there's multiple fronts to this battle for ukraine. there's the obvious military front on the ground and then a clandestine beneath the surface front. spy versus spy. collection, sources, counter intelligence agents.

there's a third front that's digital and where this disinformation is occurring and where reality is finding it harder to break through so the bubble is becoming virtually impenetrable. from the intelligence experience i don't believe we have as a nation faced this battle. the inability to permeate an adversary in wartime because of just the technology that we are facing. in days and years, wars pasts we would drop leaflets and tell people the news of what is happening. we counter tokyo rose with short wave radio transmissions speaking truth to the populations. can't do that now. it's harder for truth to break through. you opened up with a horror of children being fair game. that's not -- there's little distance between the child, the children targeted and

disinformation. why? it is easier to target children when the population back home in russia may never see the images or hear of the horrors that the government is responsible for so this bubble makes it easier to do evil things and harder for reality to penetrate and break through and never seen this before. in modern history except, of course, for things like campaign themes that say make america great again. you have putin using the nazi theme. right? it is invoking the victories past. remember when we were great? remember when we stood for greatness? let's make russia great again. let's make america great again. the big lie. former president trump won the election. vaccines insert a chip into the body. we are subsumed by disinformation and harder for

truth to break through. >> i want to share some reporting "the washington post" that is exactly in line with what you describe. a graduate student at university of wisconsin at madison studies russian state propaganda said piercing the bubble of propaganda can feel impossible. people who are genuinely supportive of putin and the government are really unlikely to believe stories that portray ukraine positively. they have a filter even seeing the story from the relatives they reject it. i have to ask you, frank. then what? what do you do? >> the challenge for intelligence operatives and to meet with sources let alone to get the truth out is extremely difficult.

prior to this, ambassador mcfaul's aware, a nether world where american and allied intelligence operators can feed truth to sources inside, even inside the kremlin. that's harder if not impossible to do. the head of the fsb unit being arrested. purging military generals and intelligence executives. very hard to get the truth in and penetrate electrically. there's no quick answer to this. here's the irony. understandably we have got to isolate. american companies are leaving, leaving moscow and russia. travelers and business people not traveling. understood that's got to happen. what's the outcome? we aren't there. there's no feet on the ground to get truth to people so they become more isolated. more of a hermit kingdom and

separated from the truth. this is going to be the dilemma going forward. >> ambassador, you asked if we wanted to dig in. we do want to. >> yes. good. >> we'll ask you to stay over a quick break. >> i have lots to say. >> we'll come right back to you and the reporting of u.s. officials having to denounce in this vein russia's claims that we are housing chemical weapons labs and labs in ukraine. the kremlin gets an assist on this lie from some over at fox news and the american right. plus why a journalist who's seen the disinformation grow and spread from the ex-president when he was president throughout this country and through that right wing media decided to turn the reporting into what's happening on the ground in ukraine and helping to get the truth out there. later in the program what we know now about basketball star

britney greiner. all those stories and more after a quick break. stay with us. develop their passion for learning through our grow up great initiative. and now, we're providing billions of dollars for affordable home lending programs... as part of 88 billion to support underserved communities... including loans for small businesses in low and moderate income areas. so everyone has a chance to move forward financially. pnc bank: see how we can make a difference for you.

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vanguard. become an owner. last week we heard from the russian representative a tirade of bizarre conspiracy theories. this week we're hearing a whole lot more where that came from. things that sound like they were forwarded to him on a chain e-mail from some dark corner of the internet. president biden has a word for this kind of talk. malarkey. >> that's a word for jit u.s.

ambassador to the united nations linda thomas-green field in an emergency meeting of u.n. security council called by russia to raise baseless allegations, lies, that the u.s. is supporting biological weapons labs in ukraine. that theory is debunked over and over again and russia repeats it and beamed into the homes of millions of americans. thanks to fox news' most highly rated anchor. tucker carlson. it is just one of the many disinformation riddled and dangerous kremlin talking points coming from what can only now be described as the pro-putin wing of the republican party if they call themselves that. small but noisy group of allies of ex-president trump who seem to oppose u.s. support for ukraine. a democracy. our ally. yesterday eight republicans

voted against a bill putting an end to normal trade relations with russia and belarus. they include the usual suspects and we'll name them. marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz. charlie sykes writes that this divide over the kremlin is prologue to the fundamental choice that republicans will have to make and this is not about trump's mean tweets or personality. the party faces a time for choosing. will they continue to back their party's most voluntarilible putin defender or the world? who speaks for the gop? add to this the very real concerns that this particular bit of disinformation is setting the stage for moscow to use chemical weapons to escalate the war in ukraine. we're back with former ambassador michael mcfaul and

frank figluozi. i don't have words for this part of horror so i turn the floor over to you. >> i want to say a couple things. first, this is a disinformation campaign. russians doing disinformation and the world, in our country as we have discussed for many years. and disinformation works. propaganda works. when you have the numbers in our country that we do that don't believe president biden was elected in a free and fash election that's hard evidence that propaganda works. in our country and as well as in russia. something about russia. it is too dark for me this conversation. just because they have propaganda don't assume that all russians believe it. if they don't tell us we shouldn't assume that they do. russian society is divided just like our society is divided. the more urban educated rich and

young you are the less likely you are to read and believe putin's propaganda. we know that from public opinion. navalny sits in jail right now. when allowed to run for mayor with no resources and tv got a quarter of the vote in moscow. remember that. not all russians going for the bs on tv. the more rural you are, less educated, less wealthy and older the more likely you are to believe to believe putin's propaganda. >> pull the thread for me then. i think most allies would say that not all americans believe that there was fraud in the 2020 election but it was too close for comfort and allies wor trump schism a virus in the american

body politic. >> right. i'll let you and frank speak about america but in russia it is the exact same thing. there's a core of supporters for putin that listen to the stories and see the children dying and say that's propaganda from nato and nazi supporters. will never be swayed and then brave core i think like millions of people that don't believe the propaganda. if thousands of people are arrested and facing 15 years in jail that suggests there's a much bigger silent group with the same preferences that don't want do go to jail for 15 years. and then there are those that are in the middle that could be persuaded. agree completely with what frank said that it is harder. if putin is doing well he wouldn't shutt down the largest

independent radio station and tv rain. i fear he is about to shutt down youtube. you don't do that if 75% of the people support you. you only do that if you're afraid you lose the voters and that suggests he knows he's losing people and we have to be smarter about vpn, text messages to soldiers. there's ways to penetrate the pieces. i think it's the weakest part of the biden response. nato support fantastic. sanctions fantastic. weapons to ukrainian fantastic. this information piece there's more work to be done. >> you two are the two smartest people in the space. frank, what does that look like? >> first, i'll take any glimmer of home that ambassador mcfaul is offering and he's right and where we need to focus on the

segment of the russian population that's silent and gets it and where the intelligence community focuses i'm sure and way behind the curve with regard to technological advances to get control of. inside the united states, look. it is time for a real battle against disinformation internally and externally and there's a great fear of a government telling americans what to think. we have to get much better at giving americans options at the truth and to select from when they every making critical decisions and deadly decisions. social media has got to be regulated. will that happen in this congress? probably not. they're not stepping up to the plate enough. neither are lawmakers. neither is the executive branch.

america's got to get smarter, more savvy to be consumers of information and a global problem. it is certainly not uniquely american. >> i want to -- frank, i want to show something that i haven't covered all of this since the war started but the comments haven't stopped and want to ask you about them in a national security context and what vladimir putin does when republican candidate j.d. vance, highly educated man says, quote, i got to be honest with you, i don't really choir what happens to ukraine one way or the other. madison kauai thorn, these are his words. remember that zelenskyy is a thug. the ukrainian government is incredibly corrupt and it is incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies.

march 10th. same gentleman -- i won't read more of him. this is marjorie taylor greene. nato supplying them with weapons and how to use them. what the hell is going on with these nato nazis? what does putin do with that? >> we know from hard evidence that some of the people you mentioned are being featured nightly within russia. people are coming home from work in moscow and tuning in to people like madison cawthorne, tucker carlson. we have reporting i believe mother jones that claimed to have the hands on a leaked memo that tells the russian news agencies please feature tucker carlson on the evening news. you have to ask yourself when you are choosing what to watch

here in the united states or to vote for here in the united states what team are you a part of? will you side with people who are actually becoming operational assets whether they are witting or not? now they are on evening news in russia when they slaughter innocent women and children. it's time to make that choice and time for the public to speak out loudly on that. >> those politicians should be disqualified for the comments but it is a sign back to the earlier conversation how sick our own politics are. i want to take the note about optimism and it is not all bleak here. ambassador mcfaul, this is adam kinzinger with truth bombs of his own. >> he was an awful president and he was awful on this issue. yeah. there is something to the fact that nobody knew what donald trump was going to do and

because he didn't know what he was going to do. that was not a deterrent to putin. vladimir putin, xi, getting everything they wanted to donald trump. if somebody said that donald trump would be better at this it is garbage. anybody in their right mind can't believe that and time to start telling people the truth. you want to be a republican? you can dislike joe biden and don't pretend like donald trump was any good. >> i love that. you can be a republican and dislike joe biden but don't pretend that donald trump was any good. i hope that -- you know, i mean, i come back to this because the truth is we'll hear from republicans but i'll send a case of doughnuts to anyone to show me that clip on any fox news show. >> that's very powerful and a

fight for the soul of the republican party. it's a real fight and when i look at from a national security perspective i'm really confident that we have the better ideas. zelenskyy and the ukrainians will win. i don't know when. putin can't crush them with the army that he has or ideas to propagate and long run the world wants us to be strong as a leader of the free world and i'm confident and optimistic about it with a caveat. we win in the long run unless we are divided here at home and when i see the quotes i didn't know two of the three that you put out and phrases that putin is using at the rally today. that is really disturbing. >> i'm old enough to remember

when having an information and message synchronizing with a autocrat could sink the political aspirations. frank, thank you so much for spending so much of the time with us. ambassador mcfaul sticks around. when we come back, a reporter who witnessed the press smears were from the last guy. and why he's now heading to ukraine to make sure the free flow of information remains uninterrupted in the free world. . and along the ride, you'll find many challenges. ♪ your dell technologies advisor can help you find the right tech solutions. so you can stop at nothing for your customers. people with moderate to severe psoriasis, are rethinking the choices they make like the splash they create the entrance they make, the surprises they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make.

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in the last few years in this country, it's been appealing for some people to call journalists the enemy of the people. and you know, i think it's illuminating to look at who takes that sentiment to the next level and kills journalists. it's illuminating to consider who -- if you believe that who you're in bed with. you're in bed with vladimir putin, with saudi arabia. with isis. >> that was famed war correspondent, author and

documentarian. sebastian younger on the importance on protecting journalists everywhere but especially those in conflict throughout the world. most recently in ukraine where these images like these every single day are only possible to be witnessed by the world because of the journalists. we depend on to know what's happening in putin's brutal war in ukraine and broader assault on democracy. on civilians. and on freedom of that information. journalist brian writes this explaining why he decided to travel to ukraine today and add to the brave body of journalists telling the story there, journalism that could help end a war and that could help save democracy in this country. quote, putin's regime murdered reporters while sowing seeds of distrust worldwide. donald trump wanted to be just like him. reporters pushed back against trump, sometimes in the briefing room and reporting that despite the threats and the intimidation broke did back of the american

oppressor. joining us now is brian karem. just crossed the border into lviv, ukraine. ambassador mcfaul is still with us, as well. brian, tell us about the decision to go cover the war in ukraine. >> it wasn't really a decision that was hard to make. we sit in the white house briefing room quite often asking questions and we need to get out of there and go ask questions and show people what's really going on. greatest thing you can do as a reporter is to not pontificate and not give opinion but to just show people what's going on. the pictures you see, the things you witness, the things as a disinterested third party to show people what's going on as a value and if some small way you can help contribute to the value of knowledge on the planet that's a good thing to do and what drove me to be here and why

i'm talking to you now. >> you write this in your great piece today. as long as human kind continues the inhumanity against itself reporters will be there to chronicle the events. they will be unarmed. they will carry notepads, pens, cameras, laptops, cell phones, and laptops and put themselves in harm's way because we need to know. that's why i'm going to ukraine. you must know already in this 22-day war in ukraine, journalists have been targeted. two fox news crew members have lost their lives and another is hospitalized. brent renaud lost his life. what's on your mind? are you scared? >> well yeah, sure. i would be an idiot if i weren't. that doesn't keep you from doing the job. that's what we're here to do and have to do. we need more reporters out in the field.

we need to defeat propaganda with facts. some fact of the matter is there are facts that people need to see. just driving here today from warsaw and talking with people and seeing just the fear that they have. they have to live here and go through this and to have the propaganda that's spread by putin, being, you know, swallowed by people is very compelling reason to be here and so speak to what the ambassador and other guest were talking about. there's a problem with this. there's a huge problem with propaganda and to push back against that you need people that know how to do the job and can do it. i say that facebook and social media, the first social media war. some pushback in this particular war has been because of the social media so that's a good thing but you can't forget that

there are people, trained observers that do this and need to be here and show people what's going on and enlighten the world to ukraine and it is a desperate time and these are desperate times so if i sat out on this i don't think my wife would like me very much. i don't think i could sit still and not be here. >> incredible. ambassador mcfaul, i wonder if you can speak to your sources from ukraine and russia how much of the truth of what brian is there to show the world will get out, will make it into russia. >> first, i just want to applaud all journalists, american, ukrainian, ukrainians, many friends of mine, people going through the institute and training programs and i think 25 probably that have gone through the training programs over 15 years reporting from ukraine and

without the bravery including our network, too. let's not forget them. incredible reporting bringing the story to the world. and it is important. i think zelenskyy himself understands why it's important. that's why he used the address to congress to show reporting. right? show pictures of what's going on. it's not getting into russia as we talked about in the ways we would like but incumbent upon us including ukrainian reporters that i deal with on a regular basis to try to get the messages in because ultimately we need russians to understand what's going on here so that they will put pressure on the government to stop the war. >> tell us what you have seen so far. >> so far coming up here i've seen nervous people. missiles landed outside lviv before i got here this morning. i spent time with police

checking to make sure everybody on the road was legit including me. i have been to 12 different conflict zones and each one is different. this is as serious as i have ever seen a conflict zone. as serious as it gets. to the ambassador's point, yeah, it is hard to get into russia but it is numbers. we have to get more people on it and show the world and if we don't there's no hope so i have a lot of hope and i see resiliency in the ukrainian people and what i saw today was in addition to the fear still resiliency and goes back to zelenskyy saying he didn't need a ride out of town but ammunition and inspired people and nationals not from ukraine. the international community is responded. i have seen that all day long today with people coming in from warsaw with services and goods to the people in ukraine. and man power. >> brian, we want you to stay

safe and we'll continue to call on you while you're there any time you want to join us, an open invitation to you. brian's new book "free the press" is out now and is in -- in lviv and ambassador mcfaul, thank you for spending time with us today. up next, how young people in ukraine are having to put their lives and they thought their futures would look like on hold. jacob soboroff on the now displaced next generation is next. on the now displaced nexten geration is next

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it seems surreal, like movie, like except you see real people suffering. they hug me and they cry, and they cannot believe bombs are not falling on them. >> it's a pastor in lviv who has opened his church to ukranians fleeing cities under assault right now by russian attacks and bombs. the u.n. refugee agency saying today that nearly 6.5 million ukrainians are now internally displaced and seeking safety within the country. let's bring in my colleague, nbc news's jacob soboroff reporting for us in lviv. jacob, tell us what you saw today. >> reporter: well, first of all, nicole, you know, we're all woken up here in the 6:00 local time hour by yet another air raid siren. we've been having these daily.

i'm sure you've been hearing a lot about it and today for the first time, four miles away from where i'm standing, russia actually carried out one of these attacks, and in particular, this is extremely devastating to one group -- it's devastating to everyone, but it's extremely devastating to one group of people that i have been getting to know as i've been on the ground here, and that's young people. many of them fled from kyiv, fled whether they were in university, fled their lives, their careers, in order to come here and get away from what was a burgeoning war, a growing war, and now that war has come here to lviv, the city of 700,000 people, and i met this group of young people who basically walked me through in their walk-up apartment, a short drive away from where i'm standing rights now, what they do in the case of an attack like the one we had this morning. they showed me the hallway they were going to sleep in. they showed me the kit that they had in case this was all going to go down, and sure enough, it did. before it did, i talked about the future with them, the future that they thought they were

going to have, the future that they had hoped for and what they were going to do now. here's some of what they had to say. >> i was a lawyer. >> reporter: you're talking in the past tense. you said, "i was." >> i'm not anymore. i have no job today. >> before the war, i was a dj and since 21st, i can't listen to the music at all. >> reporter: but that's what you love. that was your job. >> sometimes i feel like it's a dream, just -- the most horrible dream in my life and tomorrow i will wake up. >> reporter: you didn't have to do this. i'm some guy from l.a. that showed up into your life and here you all are talking to me with a bunch of cameras in the middle of a war. why did you want to speak out? >> we think that we need to use every instrument to do this and to share information all over the world. >> if i can say one to everybody who is watching us, don't forget about what's happening in ukraine.

>> reporter: so, nicole, just a couple things about what we heard right there. nastasia, the young woman who said, before you heard the gentleman say, we don't want people to forget what's happening in ukraine. basically, her emergency preparedness plan bore out last night. they had to lay down for the time they did hear russians attacking this city. they're terrified. they don't know what to do. they don't know where they're going to go and one of the gentleman in that room had said he might go enlist in the army yesterday before these attacks. after the attacks, he's on his way to kyiv tomorrow to do exactly that. >> my goodness. jacob soboroff, another incredible report to add to your incredible body of reporting. please stay safe, my friend. live for us in lviv. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. adline white house" starts after a quick eabrk. i may have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. or psoriatic arthritis. but we are so much more. we're team players and artists. designers and do-it-yourselfers. parents and friends.

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when i came to the western ukraine, it is safer than it is in other parts of the ukraine,

but they're still getting the sirens here, so martin, my son, he saw me, he hugged me, and then he said, oh, mom, i'm going to tell you a hilarious story and i was like, okay, go on. and he said, yesterday, we were playing after school, he has online school now, and we decided to go outside and we were putting on our clothes, it took us a while to get ready, so on and so forth and the very second we got out of the door, we hear the sirens and we have to go back to the bunker. and he was thinking this was funny because, like, this happened the very second they went outside but i heard that and i thought, like, oh my gosh, i so much hate putin for the very fact that my son now knows, like, when you hear a siren, you have to go back inside and get into the bunker. >> the new normal of everyday life. hi again, everybody, it's 5:00 in new york, it's 11:00 at night in kyiv. that was inna, a member of ukraine's parliament, describing those brutal new realities felt by ukrainians on the ground in

their country as the war carries on. inna lives with her family in kyiv and had sent her 9-year-old son to the western part of the country when bombs started falling in the capital city but just a few days ago, they reunited. as you heard her say, the western part of the country had remained a safer spot, especially the city of lviv, which is where we speak with all of our reporters nearly every day. early this morning, that city, which has been a refuge for ukrainians and others fleeing to safety, saw an escalation, a missile strike about four miles from the city center hit an aircraft repair facility. the city's mayor said luckily no one was killed but it does raise concerns about russian forces expanding their assaults. lviv is only 40 miles from the polish border. here is the mayor of lviv with our colleague, gabe gutierrez, reacting to news of the strike. >> mariupol bombardments, kharkiv, lviv, i feel equally the same pain in my heart.

they are destroying, basically, the body of ukraine. we, of course, have good resilience, potential to renew our forces. today is 23rd day, and this is a good evidence of that. putin will probably have not enough bombs to destroy all the cities all over ukraine. >> that attack in lviv came as rescue efforts in the city of mariupol are still under way at that bombed-out theater we told you about. it had been used as a shelter. 130 people have already been evacuated from it. but ukrainian officials say about 1,300 people remain trapped inside. and in what is now becoming a daily occurrence, a high-rise apartment building in kyiv was hit with a russian rocket. officials confirmed that at least one civilian died in that

attack. the capital city's mayor called out the hypocrisy of russia's claim that they're only going after military targets. watch that. >> one more. one more fact. this is a war against civilians. i don't see military people here. it's no military base. it's just apartments. apartments from civilians. if you look in mariupol, if you look in kharkiv, if you look in other cities, chernihiv right now, where the civilians will be destroyed. the city will be destroyed. i expect the russians do it exactly the same way in kyiv. >> those scenes of terror and destruction all over ukraine. nbc news has counted strikes on more than a dozen ukrainian cities and towns in just the last seven days. president zelenskyy, in his latest message, stresses that russia launches this war will destroy everything that russian

society has achieved over the last 25 years. he says this will be a fall for them, a painful fall. and that is where we begin our coverage this hour. nbc news correspondent cal perry joins us live from lviv, ukraine. also with us from lviv, terl jermaine star, the host of the black diplomats podcast. it's a pleasure to have you with us today. cal perry, as we do every day, i start with you. i have to confess that i -- this strikes at your false sense of security that all of our colleagues who are in lviv, all of the refugees who have fled mariupol or kyiv or other parts are safe in lviv. this attack seemed to operate on multiple levels for the russians. >> absolutely. this is the fallback position for refugees, for journalists, for so many people in diplomatic corridors in countries around

the world. in sort of the reporting of this story, it's worth mentioning that these missiles that hit this airport, four struck near to the airport, we're not exactly sure the target. six were initially fired, we believe from the black sea. it took them a few hours to get here, two and a half, maybe three hours from the time those rockets are fired until the time they impact and the missile defense system here took two out of the air and was enough to warn people -- the sirens went off at exactly the right time. the missiles impacted about 20 minutes later and then the all-clear was given about 20 minutes after that. it is an interesting sort of thing that is happening here in the west of the country where the air defense systems clearly are still functioning. the other thing that happened shortly after those explosions were the media was not allowed anywhere near the site. that video is the closest people got and that is because this is a city that is preparing for further air strikes and a government that does not want to let the russians know whether they are striking the intended target. and so this is a place where operational security is very much in mind. when i went out tonight to try

to grab food just before the curfew, we noticed there is a doubling down on the sandbags, a hardening of positions around this city. some of that is cultural, trying to protect the statues and churches. we saw 300-year-old church where stained glass windows on the ground level had been double sandbagged. it is totally surreal to see a european city that is once again for the third time in its history bracing for possible air strikes. to the east of the country, we continue to see the worst of the situation. a little bit of good news on a friday night. 5,000 civilians got out of mariupol today and for the first time, the u.n. and the unhc, our high commission for refugees, was able to get into sumy and feed up to 35,000 people and restore water to 50,000 people. that's the good news. the bad news is the video you're seeing right now from mariupol. we have this fresh video. it seems like the agencies were able to get into that city and what they found when they got into that city and this is video from the last hour that fed out to us. there is this video now. it's people that were shuttled into basements for two, three

days at a time that are running out of food, that have come aboveground to cook food, to cook and eat and return to the basements and those eye-witness reports and accounts are that people are, and we knew this to be true, are dying in these basements. so it is one of those typical things that you have happening in a war zone where you have in the western part of the country here, preparing for more air strikes, and again, the story line that the worst of it is in the east. and it is the civilians that are paying the price. this city, i think you're absolutely right, is now going to prepare for a weekend perhaps where people are going to be looking at certain targets, wondering if they're going to be hit. that is the thing that changed on the ground here, absolutely, nicole. >> cal, you know, you're one of the most important voices covering this war, and you were the first person i heard say on our air or anywhere else that last monday was the first time someone died in this war from something other than a missile strike or a bullet. it was the young girl who died of dehydration in mariupol.

it seems that whole thing has been turned on its head, that the very strategy being deployed in mariupol is to starve people, is to cause as much suffering as humanly possible. what is the impact of that brutality on the rest of the country? >> and in chernihiv, and in kharkiv, and on the outskirts of kyiv where we're seeing the targeting of grain facilities, of storage facilities that are designed simply to store food. and then you have the refugee crisis. more than 3 million people have now fled this country. 13 million people have been displaced. and as is so often the case in conflict, it's not the war that kills people. it's all of these things that happen as people and human traffic flood out of these places. it is the exploitation of refugees that we will be talking about for months and for years to come. the families that were separated, the kids that crossed borders alone. how their lives are forever

different because they are exploited and taken advantage of. it is the changing of a nation, the identity of a nation. these black sea cities that were known as some of them as working class, blue-collar towns, port cities, that are now defined by mass graves. it is those things that we will be talking about for years to come. whether or not the fighting stops today, those are the things that are going to impact the lives of an entire generation, and i heard ali talk about this. we have children in this city who fled from mariupol, who fled from the east, who are now running to bomb shelters. those children are going to hate russia and the russians for the rest of their lives so you have that cycle of violence that we so often see in places around the world, not just here, nicole. >> cal, i want to ask you about president zelenskyy's language for russia. president zelenskyy is unflappable, but he's not a robot. he's stoic, but he is channeling

the pain of his people and of his country, and the messages to the russians seem to be carrying that combination of resilience and pain, saying, you may bomb our cities, but you will not win. you will not destroy us. what is sort of the mission, if you will, of the president? is it to steel the ukrainians from the very difficult days ahead? is it to sort of be there with them in their suffering? just tell me how they see their president and what his public speeches are intended to do at this very dark hour. >> so, and he has to do two things at once. he has to comfort the ukrainian people and rally them to the front. that's one thing he has to do. and then the other thing he has to do is he has to keep in mind negotiations but he has to be brutally honest with the russians. so, last night, we heard for the first time, numbers coming from

the ukrainian government of dead russian soldiers. we had had "the new york times" kind of report it 24 hours earlier. they had said around 7,000. we hear the president say, what am i supposed to do with the bodies of 13,000 dead russian soldiers? that number seems extraordinarily high. it seems like the kind of thing that would lend us to think that he is not increasing the numbers but that he's estimating those numbers on the high end, and why wouldn't you when you're negotiating against an enemy that is invading your sovereign country and bombing your cities and your children? so, he has to walk this fine line where he is telling the ukrainian people, we are winning this war. we have stopped the russians in these places, and we can negotiate on our terms. while at the same time, he has to be realistic about trying to get the russians to take this more seriously at the negotiating table, and then you're sort of releasing that information. again, 13,000 russian soldiers. if that's true, if that number is even half that, these are some of the bloodiest battles that we have seen since world war ii. this is not a thing we've seen in modern times.

and so he's in an impossible position, and i know we've talked about this a lot. so much so that the advisor to the president, the main advisor, released a video today, almost responding to people who are saying, you need to make a deal, and he said, we're not going to make a bad deal. we're not going to split ukraine in half and we're not going to make a bad deal for the children who are dying in these basements. so, they're starting to respond directly to this idea that he has to do two things at once, and those two things are diametrically opposed. >> cal, i say this every day. please, please stay safe, my friend. thank you so much for your incredible reporting on the ground. we're really grateful. terrelle, i want to ask you. i follow you and i have seen some of your reporting and the people that you have helped and the people you know. but first, just tell me what your last 24 hours have been like there in lviv. >> i spend much of my time, including the lead-up to this war, because as you know, we all

know this is a full-scale war where your colleague, cal, hasn't been experiencing what i have been experiencing. it's clearly a war environment. my 24 hours have been relatively normal. no blasts in the city proper, unlike in kyiv, where i experienced missing a missile strike by 200 yards, seeing a missile literally hit the target and having friends barely miss their buildings being attacked as well. so again, this is just a different world in lviv, even though it's not completely out of the danger zone, but compared to the eastern part of the country, it's a world of difference. >> terrell, you've been helping people get out of the country. you've been helping people who are stuck in the country. tell me some of their stories. >> much of it, we have to deal with the psychological trauma,

what it means to be a refugee. we spend so much time discussing movement and people getting out, but what we don't discuss is the fact that how were these people before they were leaving? one of the families i helped, the first family andre and i assisted, my friend, we -- these families were stuck in a basement for three days outside of kyiv when they emerged, they were incredibly terrified, did not want to be separated. didn't want me or andre to be within -- to move outside of their sight, so basically, during the whole two-day trip that we took from the suburb of kyiv to the border, they were incredibly traumatized, and so the psychological trauma of what it's like to deal with bombings, to deal with people dying around you is something that's going to require a lot of psychological services wherever they go.

in this case, with the first family i'm discussing, they're in slovakia, but also you're dealing with people who, you know, leading up to this war, this is a normal -- we led normal lives. i mean, we were going out partying. we were going out just hanging out after going to bars. i mean, this is just a -- this is a major -- kyiv was a major cosmopolitan city and then all of a sudden, you can't go out because of the curfews and because of the martial law, so it's just turned everyone's life upside down. >> so many of the refugees are children. i think the last numbers i saw had it at half. tell me what you see when you see ukrainian children. we have someone that we talk to on this show regularly. he said that the biggest difference in his home right outside kyiv is that the sound of war is different. you can now feel it, and the frequency of the attacks are so

much and so consistent now that he's had to explain what those sounds are to his very young kids. tell me what your sense is of what, if anything, can be done to protect the kids from some of this trauma you're describing. >> there's not much you can do to protect children from the trauma unless you take them out of the situation, and two of the families i assisted, they had the children, the twins -- twin girls. they were 9 years old. and then the kid was 5. and i don't know about posting some of the photos with the mother who went -- who had cancer. one of the toughest thing that the kid was worried about was whether or not they were going to be separated from the mother or -- yeah, there she goes. that's irina. basically, when i was with her the entire time, the kids -- it took the kids a while. he was just terrified, didn't know -- he was very shy. but then, at the end of that

trip, when we're at the bus stop, at the bus right there taking the people to lithuania, and the toughest part that i saw for the kid was that he had to be separated from the father. because if you're a man between the ages of 18 and 60, you can't leave this country. and so, you know, in addition to dealing with the trauma of hearing these sirens that go off over and over again -- and listen, i'm a 41-year-old man and it drove me to the point of paranoia and i'm not sure i'm using the proper medical terms for this, but i was able to work through it. but just imagine what that's like for a child. and so in addition to going through that, you have the father and they're separated and they don't know when they're going to be reunited, particularly with irina, because she has to deal with her cancer treatment and wellness so it's displacement, but it's also being forcefully separated from your family. >> you know, terrell, you make such an important point for our understanding, again, from our safe distance. there's so much attention paid

to the resilience and the positivity of the ukrainian people, but that flattens them out into almost a one-dimensional caricature. they are traumatized. they are being shot at. they are being bombed. they're making heinous choices between their husbands and fathers and sons and their children and keeping them alive. every hour of every day is a living hell, and i wonder if you can sort of speak to what, if anything, can be done to help people, to see people in their trauma and in their pain? >> so, the best thing to do is, at the end of the day, it's really difficult to describe this to people who have not been in a war before, and i know for me, this is my -- the first war that i have covered and had i not been here, there would be no way for me to articulate what it's like to be here, but the best thing -- you know, so, telling someone who's not been in war to get a feel what it's

like, it's very difficult. but what i can say is, just imagine if you're in new york city, where i live, and then all of a sudden, a house next to you is just completely destroyed and people are dead. and how do you -- and think about your sense of safety and security, the fact that you can walk out on the street. basic things like getting gas. i mean, there are gas shortages here. everything that you are used to getting, milk, medicine, all those things are interrupted and to the point where you can't do it. just imagine sirens going off around you. almost 24/7, waking up at 3:00 in the morning to a siren or the fact that you can just a few blocks away, a missile hitting a residential area and somebody that you know dies. that is what it is like. and then also the fact that you don't know your home that you have been living in all your life is no longer safe. i don't think an american can fathom this notion that we --

that we are -- that the united states of america is no longer safe. i don't think that we can ever -- i don't think many of us understand what it means to be displaced and say, oh, we must go to mexico or canada. we're so used to other people having that experience to the point where we feel like we're above it. but in reality, life is so precious that we're not above anything, and so that's what you have with ukrainians. and so, what you see is their humanity put on full display. it is quite difficult for me to take my camera and video -- and take photos of people, even though it's my job. it's the fact that we have to tell these stories. but you're basically catching people at the worst moments of their lives, where they don't know if they're going t the next day. they don't know what the state of their children are going to be, or if they're going to be separated, not because their husbands have to fight in a ridiculous war that has no -- that ukraine did nothing to be pulled into. it's that they're just at the

mercy of -- they're just at the mercy of the whims of a guy that operates like a autocrat, and i think that for an american to really appreciate that is very difficult. but being in ukraine, it's something that we live with every day. >> terrell jermaine starr, you traveled a long distance toward helping all of our viewers understand exactly what it's like. i'm really grateful to you for that, for everything you just said. thank you for spending time with us, and please, please stay safe. >> thank you. when we come back, president biden is looking to ratchet up the pressure on vladimir putin. and any country that might consider helping him. a closer look at the president's diplomatic efforts is next. plus new developments in the case of basketball superstar brittney griner, whose detention in moscow has been extended. now u.s. officials say russian authorities aren't letting them meet with her. and later, democrats are increasingly trying to link ukraine's struggle for democracy

with the fight for the right to vote and protect our democracy here at home. just this week, republicans took new and extreme steps to criminalize nonexistent voter fraud, and it comes against a backdrop of next week's supreme court confirmation hearings. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. sfloemt use" continues teafr a quick break. sfloem everything i need to make my home totally me. sometimes, i'm a homebody. can never have too many pillows! sometimes, i'm all business. a serious chair for a serious business woman! i'm always a mom- that is why you are smart and chose the durable fabric. perfect. i'm not a chef- and, don't mind if i do. but thanks to wayfair, i do love my kitchen. yes! ♪ wayfair you got just what i need. ♪ to run a growing business, is to be on a journey. and along the ride, you'll have many questions. challenges. and a few surprises. ♪

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with harrowing new images today, showing a broadened, brutal offensive by russia and more civilian deaths, in washington, president biden met virtually with president xi of china for nearly two hours this morning. the white house says the president reiterated his support

for a diplomatic resolution and warned in detail of implications and consequences, is the words the white house used, of china providing material support to russia's unprovoked war. joining us now, matt miller, friend of the show, now special advisor on communications for the national security council. very busy place to work. great to see you, my friend. tell me what you can about how those calls went. we know what president biden said, but did xi say, i got it, sir, we will not help russia? >> well, we make a rule never to try to characterize what the other side of these conversations said. we don't like it when other countries talk about what president biden said. so we don't characterize them. so what i'll do is talk about what the president said, and you know, he did characterize it as a good call. most of the time was spent talking about russia's invasion of ukraine and what the president did is lay out the consequences, what the consequences would be were china to provide material support for

that invasion. you know, the whole world, as you said, can see what's happening on the ground in ukraine. they can see how russia is brutalizing the country. they're really trying to change the rules-based international order and declare that they can just change the boundaries of sovereign country by force and as the president has said before, every country in the world has to decide where they stand on those questions. >> matt miller, you and i had conversations around this table for five years about the malevolent intersection of donald j. trump and vladimir putin, and one of the tools that putin seems to be wielding with great effect is disinformation, propaganda, clamping down on the free flow of information in his country. we just heard from cal perry, who's in lviv for us, that president zelenskyy has put out this number of 13,000 russian soldiers who have died in this 21-day war. can you confirm that number? >> i can't. we have various estimates of the

number of russian casualties, but they're all just that. they're estimates. the intelligence community has some numbers but we have low confidence in those numbers. you see an entire range and we don't know what the kind of grund truth is with the number of russian casualties. we do think that the number is much higher than russia estimated they would be at the outset of this invasion. we think it's not gone the way they expected to. what exactly that number is, we just don't know with a degree of certainty. >> so, "the new york times" put out the number, 8,000. as cal said, if it's half of what zelenskyy said, it's still a horrific tragedy and loss of young russian lives. i wonder if you can talk about whether there are conversations that you're part of or that are taking place about how to really reach deep inside of russia and do exactly what vladimir putin did in an illegal manner in 2016. exploit the divisions in his country with the truth of the illegal war in ukraine.

>> well, i mean, i think, first thing i would say, we play by very different rules than russia does. russia has made clear that it has no compunction about interfering in other countries' electoral processes. they've been gaslighting about their involvement in this invasion from the beginning. they spent months saying they had no intention of doing it. they've lied about what the ukrainians are doing. that's not the way we operate as a country. it's not the way we operate as an administration. i will say, what the president is trying to do, look, obviously, it's very difficult to get information into russia. clamp down on state media before the invasion. we actually put administration officials on state social media to do interviews and get information into the country. that's not really possible now. but the president has tried to make clear that this is not a war with the russian people. we do not want to be at war with the russian people. we are imposing consequences on the leadership of russia. we are trying to hold the leadership of russia responsible

for the choices they've made. but it is no way -- the actions we've taken in no way are intended to signal, you know, any disagreement or displeasure with the actual people in russia who, as we know, or i should say, we don't know necessarily whether they support this invasion at all. >> what is sort of the degree of confidence you have in our government's ability to understand what's happening inside russia? do we have any sense of whether the protesters have all been jailed, whether they've been delivered harsh sentences? what is our -- how opaque is russia to our intelligence community right now? >> you know, i'm not going to talk about intelligence. obviously, it is somewhat of an opaque country. information doesn't do a good job getting in, and sometimes information doesn't do a good job getting out. we see the same images that you see of incredibly brave russian protesters coming out to speak their minds and face the severe consequences, and we see the

crackdowns that president putin has implemented, strengthening the laws to put people in jail for up to 15 years for protesting. it's also true that since the invasion, he's cracked down on social media. there are still ways to get information in the country, telegram is an app that's used by a number of russians, and we do know that information moves around that channel somewhat more free form than, you know, oh social media channels that have been cracked down, but look, i will be honest, it is a challenge to get information into that country. >> matt, what can you tell us about president biden's trip next week? he's done -- i think at every juncture, there was a -- maybe a benchmark put out in terms of the severity of the sanctions the president was able to deliver tougher sanctions in terms of the participation of our allies. he was able to exceed expectations. what are the expectations for what more he can deliver? how many more tools are sort of in that tool kit?

>> we do still have some tools available to us, both as the united states and in cooperation with our allies in europe and some of our other allies around the world. and i think what the president will do next week, two things. number one, he'll meet with nato allies to talk about how our commit to nato is sack ro sanctity. one of the things we made clear from the beginning and other meetings with the g7 and the european union, he will continue to make clear that we -- if russia continues to escalate this conflict, we have ways to continue both to enforce the sanctions we've already imposed, which have had a severe attack on the russian economy, and to impose new sanctions. we've really had a two-part strategy along with our allies from the beginning. number one, to continue to flow support into the ukrainian people. military support, economic support, humanitarian support, and number two, to impose severe consequences on president putin and those closest to him to try to put as much pressure on him and his economy and the russian leadership as we can. we think that's the best thing

we can do to strengthen the ukrainians' hands and that's what will the president will be reiterating. >> matt miller, it's -- we miss you around these tables, but your immense talents are being put to good use in your role. it was very nice to see you. thank you for spending time with us. i imagine these are very busy and long days for you. thank you. >> great to see you, nicole. thanks. there is a setback to tell you about for u.s. officials working to free basketball superstar brittney griner. her detention in russia has been extended until may. r detention n extended until may (music throughout)

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we have some updates for you in the case of imprisoned wnba star brittney griner. she remains detained in russia. yesterday, we told you that the seven-time wnba all-star's prison sentence was extended two months until may after officials reportedly found vape cartridges containing cannabis in her luggage and now disturbing breaking news on this case. axios is reporting u.s. officials have not seen griner since she was arrested last month as russian authorities continue to deny their requests. according to state department spokesperson, we have repeatedly asked for consular access and have been denied. russia must abide by its legal obligations and allow us to

provide consular services to u.s. citizens detained in russia. joining our conversation, former resident legal advisor for the u.s. embassy in moscow. michael crowley, "new york times" diplomatic correspondent is here as well. tom, i'm going to start with you and ask you how far outside the range of sort of normal rights or privileges, if they're more of a privilege than a right, is this to not permit embassy officials from seeing an american detained in russia. >> well, it's clearly outside the realm of the law. the vienna convention clearly provides, requires states to provide meaningful consular access when the foreign national is detained, so if the russians are denying access to the u.s. consulate, to see miss griner, that would be a blatant violation of the vienna convention. i don't know what all the facts are, what they're reasons are, but if they're denying it, that

would be a violation of the vienna convention. >> what can be done if russia, who now seems to be intent on indiscriminately bombing civilians in ukraine, is now also in violation of the conventions? do we have leverage to rectify that? >> well, it's the vienna convention in this case, but there's very little leverage. we have very little leverage vis-a-vis russia diplomatically right now, and what they can do is they can file a de marche, but there's very little recourse given the relationship right now. >> tom, what sort of -- i mean, i know there's diplomacy that we don't see. i know there are stories of high-level american expoliticians going to very hostile countries and getting journalists out, getting other americans out. i mean, what might be happening behind the scenes to help his griner? >> well, we would hope what might be happening is, one, they would be demanding consular

access to her. that is something we have an absolute right to and that the russians should be giving our embassy. that's one. two, there may be negotiations behind the scenes about a possible prison transfer we're not privy to. so those are the kinds of things that might be happening behind the scenes. again, given the nature of the political situation right now, it is going to be very difficult for the u.s. government to get her out any time soon. >> what are your questions? if you were still in the embassy and you were working on this case, this crisis, what would your questions be about it? >> what i would want to know is, first of all, why are we not getting consular access? that would be the first thing i would want to know. secondly, i would want to work closely, i would want to be in touch with her russian lawyers to find out what kinds of legal defenses might be available to her. was the search in violation of the law? was the -- have they calculated the amount correctly? has the substance been the subject of a lab report? so, i would be wanting to know

what her russian lawyers are doing to try to marshall the evidence in her defense, what kind of defense they're going to present on her behalf. >> i want to just tell our viewers something that we know but they don't, that you are on a train, and we are appreciative that you availed yourself to us, but they heard some of the train background noise in the background. i apologize if that was distracting to anyone. michael crowley -- >> sorry about that. >> that's not your fault. that's not your fault. just want to be as transparent as possible. michael crowley, i want to bring you in, and ask you if this is something that the state department is even willing to acknowledge they're working on. >> yeah, nicole, they are willing to acknowledge that they're working on it. in fact, i think they are, you know, eager to communicate that they are doing something, because it sure doesn't look that way to the average person from the outside. particularly when you have the russians in violation of their international obligations

denying griner consular access. so, there's not a lot that the embassy in moscow can be doing for her on location. but state department officials are very clear in saying that they have had a lot of contact with the wnba directly. i believe secretary blinken may have said that, and with griner's lawyer. i think with others who are trying to help. so, the state department is doing everything it can. the problem is, russia holds all the cards here, unfortunately. so, there's a limit to what that actually means. >> michael crowley, i wonder if you can just sort of broaden this out to helping us understand what kind of things the state department can do, even if it's a back channel way, even if it's through a third party. i mean, griner isn't -- not that anyone is just a basketball player. she is in a league of her own. she's a superstar.

i imagine there's a reason that it's not getting more attention. i imagine that is that people don't think that is helpful. we obviously are not covering this with that understanding, but it is amazing that one of the league's biggest stars is imprisoned in russia, who's at war with our ally, and no one has seen her and we know very, very little. >> yeah. well, part of it, nicole, is that we are at the mercy of the russians, who have her, have the facts of the situation, and are obviously not wanting to make this easy for anybody. i mean, it's a form of cruelty to be communicating as little as they are about this. there are also legal privacy concerns that restrict the state department from being able to say certain things without permission, so that is a factor also. there are legal limits to what they can say and do. and you know, i think that there is a debate -- there's not a

clear right answer as to whether more attention is helpful or hurtful. i've seen smart people on both sides of that question. one side of the coin is people arguing that the more this becomes a sort of cause celebra, the more attention that is given to it, the more the russians feel like they have a valuable chit in their hands that they can trade for concessions or that they can use to essentially torment the united states. but the other side of the coin is that you just have to shine a spotlight on this, make sure that she's not forgotten, put heat on the russians and that that could be helpful. i don't think anyone knows the right answer. that's part of why this is such a horrible and torturous situation, and of course, the last thing i'll say, the big context is no one has faith in the russian judicial system. it's not on the level, particularly when someone like vladimir putin or his top subordinates might take an interest in a case and get involved. you know, you just can't assume that anything like a normal judicial process is under way.

>> tom, i'll give you the last word. any reaction to michael's analysis there? do you agree with that? >> i think his analysis is excellent. it's right on the money. there are two schools of thought on this. one is that if you bring too much attention to it, it might get to the attention, its might get to the level of vladimir putin, which is not going to be helpful. some other cases that have gotten his attention, he made comments about the detainees, which just make it more difficult to get them out. i do agree that transparency can be helpful, but the transparency's got to be deployed very carefully. perhaps by having people go to the court proceedings, they can shine a light on it in a way it makes any corruption difficult. that might be a middle balance. >> we appreciate both of you and your expertise and experience in these issues. thank you very much to tom firestone and michael crowley. great to see both of you. when we come back, democrats are increasingly trying to tie

the fight for protecting and saving ukraine's democracy to the struggle to protect our democracy here at home and specifically voting rights here at home. it's happening as republicans go even further to try to criminalize voter fraud, which, of course, isn't a thing. that story's next. which, of course, isn't a thing that story's next. wayfair has everything i need to make my home totally me. sometimes, i'm a homebody. can never have too many pillows! sometimes, i'm all business. a serious chair for a serious business woman!

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presidents bill clinton and george w. bush laying sun flowers, the national flower of ukraine at a ukrainian church in chicago today. it is home to many ukrainian americans and sister city to kyiv. the world watches the ukrainians fight and over and over again show resilience and determination to sacrifice everything to preserve the country, protect their democracy, democrats in the united states are hoping that that example reignites the drive to protect democracy here at home. congressman collin alred is telling nbc news, "i'm hoping that seeing the ukrainians come under attack because they're a democracy and defend their country so bravely because they believe in democracy, increases faith in ours here at home." republicans for their part not taking the same message. they continued to push anti-democratic measures. "the new york times" reports this, "legislators in several states have moved to reorganize

and rebrand law enforcement agencies while stiffening penalties for related crimes. republican district attorneys and states attorneys general are promoting aggressive prosecutions in some cases making felony cases out of situations that might in the past have been classified as honest mistakes. this comes as confirmation hearings for the supreme court nominee are scheduled to begin next week. all eyes will be on the court to see if they take any courageous stance to help preserve democracy. joining our conversation though, reverend al sharp ton, host of "politics nation," and the president of the national action network and "new york times" domestic correspondent. nick, i have been obviously spending a lot of time reporting this and there is a constant clip covering that story in this country.

but tell me what's been going on here. >> so what we've seen this year following a wave of new voting laws that added host of restrictions last year, 35 laws in 19 states this years tz a little more tailored and specifically in early trend we're noticing is this focus on law enforcement. creating these agencies such as in florida and office of election crimes and security and new law enforcement arm to investigate and try and hunt for cases of voter fraud n georgia, they just passed a bill on tuesday in the house that would expand the georgia bureau of investigations ability to investigate and further prosecute voter fraud. it's kind of coming at a time when we're getting a little more clarity, just how rare voter fraud was in the 2020 election n florida there were 75 referrals, no the even prosecutions, but referrals of potential voter fraud out of 11 million voters.

that is 7 million cases. in texas, there were four prosecutions of about 11.4 million voters. this is rare. and i think what we're seeing is we're heading into an election year and as republicans really want to make the case that they're quote/unquote tough on voter fraud crime and the myth of voter fraud is important to the republican base this is a political messaging arm for a campaign year and we're seeing it in the laws in states like georgia, arizona, texas, and in florida. but they could have pretty real consequences come the midterm elections. >> political messaging operation. i wonder if you see this as an intimidation campaign. this is from next day reporting. the political incentives to draw attention to the enforcement of voting laws are clear. that may mean the odds of charging voter fraud could be linked to the local affiliation

of the local prosecutor n wisconsin, district attorney eric tony was in office nine years without prosecuting a vote fraud case. but after he started his campaign for ag in 2021, mr. tony, republican, received a letter from a wisconsin man who had acquired copies of millions of ballots in an attempt to review the 2020 election, the letter cited five county voters whose registrations listed home addresses at a ups store. mr. tony charged all five with felony voter fraud. this is an unbelievable abuse of power and a reshaping of the laws on the books, the criminal laws, rev. >> it is not only a reshaping, it is fabricating laws and enforcement of laws that don't exist. i was in houston, texas, last

night when i got on the plane coming back from new york this morning and saw the headline of nick's story in the "new york times." that's exactly what's going on. they're cracking down on nonexisting crimes. and at one level it may be political messaging. but at another level, it's exactly what you asked, nicole. it is intimidation. it is making people feel they can be prosecuted for nonexisting crimes. and we come out of a community that has had any number of generations that have been attached to them because of who they are. people will say i may not go and vote at all because they're going to make things up. the message that it sends in many communities particularly black and brown communities is absolutely frightening to me in a midterm election which is why we need to get out and expose early this is bogus and the federal government needs to investigate some of these state

units that are being created or being extended as in the case of georgia to see if there is any merit to it or if it is intentional or political messaging or even worse, intentional intimidation with that in and of itself should be looked upon as something violating voting laws. >> yeah. i mean, nick, the story is -- a book end is the wrong word. field like the other side of the coin from the following the 2020 election, first it was making the things that made voting during a pandemic a little easier and less dangerous much the getting rid of all those things. now criminalizing this thing -- i remember when james baker and jimmy carter looked at voter fraud after the 2000 election, one of the big moments was there wasn't much. i mean it is not a crime committed en masse. tlaen are laws on the bookdz. the other thing people don't realize this is already a fraud to vote illegally. what is sort of -- i guess i ask

this with some trepidation. but the other efforts, there were hundreds of bills introduced into every state legislature. is the effort to criminalize voting fraud as fervent and widespread? >> i think what we're going see is definitely an effort to criminalize the voting process almost at every step. we have the new offices created in florida. there is a proposal in it arizona by wendy rogers that hasn't gone anywhere. there is an effort to expand that. but if we look back to last year, there was also an effort to create new penalties that would make mistakes in voting by voters and election officials, felonies or misdemeanors or greater crimes. so things could being an honest mistake like trying to vote when ineligible or election official in texas and you want to promote not even just mail out absentee ballots but promote the use of mail in ballots.

or if assisting a voter with translation and point to the wrong part of a ballot and appears that you were directing a voter how to vote that, can land new jail. i think it is a totality that we're starting to see in terms of criminalization of the voting process rooted in this republican inherent skepticism of the american electorate. this believe that there is fraud everywhere where audit after audit, investigation after investigation even republican led task force like paxton in texas don't find any fraud. it is still early in the state legislative season. i think we may see more bills come out. florida was a game changer and the heritage foundation which is a conservative group, heritage action, a conservative group that has been pushing new voting laws called, you know, important and you can see that kind of copied in other states.

so i definitely think this is going to be major topic of the next legislative season of voting laws. >> some really important reporting. glad we got to talk to both of you about it. nick and reverend sharpton, thank you. thank you to all of you for letting us into your homes for another week of shows during these extraordinary times. the we're so grateful. "the beat" starts right now. >> hi. thank you so much. welcome to "the beat." we're tracking what is day 23 of vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine, russian troops stalled in the advances today. they're expanding attacks on civilian areas with the aerial bombing of an airport in the western city of lviv. that had been something of a safe haven for refugees. the mayor is responding. >> how significant is the air strike overnight and how long before you believe the russians will start targeting civilians potentially here in lviv?