march the 19th, i'm ali velshi at the train station in budapest, hungary, where thousands of refugees continue to arrive daily from neighboring ukraine, where russia's brutal invasion is continuing for a 24th day. ukraine's prosecutor general says 112 children have been killed since russia's attack began and over 140 wounded. although the kremlin's ground invasion is largely stalled, according to nato officials ukrainian cities remain under fire from constant air attacks. the russian ministry of defense said for the first time in the operation it deployed a hypersonic missile, a type of missile that's harder to detect and interception. nbc news has not independently verified that claim. according to local ukrainian officials several missiles demolished buildings on friday

and an aircraft repair facility near the airport of lviv, that airport is 40 miles from the border of poland. at least one person was injured in that attack. russian forces hit residential buildings and a school in the capital city of kyiv on friday. the shelling left one person dead and another 19 injured, including four children, that's according to the mayor. rescuers in mariupol are searching for survivors following an air strike on a theatre where hundreds of women and children were sheltering. so far 130 people have been rescued but authorities don't know the status of the rest and the human toll of russia's invasion is growing. in kharkiv, russia's bombardment has left the morgue overflowing, there are no more coffins left and they're wrapping bodies in whatever material they can find. in mariupol a local post office

has been turned into a make-shift morgue. that's what the word says spray painted on the outside. bodies are kept there until they can be buried. million of ukrainians are fleeing for their lives as russia's attack rages on for the fourth week so far more than 3.2 million people have fled to neighboring countries. the agency says, around 13 million have been affected in the hardest hit areas of ukraine within the country. ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy, is now calling for peace talks to begin in ernest with moscow. zelenskyy said, quote, it is time to restore territorial integrity and justice for ukraine. otherwise russia's losses will be so huge that several generations will not be enough to rebound, end quote. joining me is molly hunter. overnight there were more reports of explosions in your

area. what do you know about that? >> reporter: not just reports. i heard them. we were woken up around 1:00 a.m., a series of loud booms and at 2:00 we had air-raid sirens here in lviv. we do not know what the sounds were, we are looking for confirmation. but like the airport depot, the repair plant yesterday it took them a while to tell us what the target was, what might have been damaged, how many casualties there were. this is the third or fourth night we have heard sirens, reports of attacks on the outskirts of lviv. yesterday's attack, 4.5 miles from where i am. this city we have been speaking to you from is the safe haven in the west, this is where people depart from for hungary, poland, elsewhere in europe. we're asking everyone when they get here, where they're from, what it's like where they came

from. up until yesterday we hadn't met anyone from mariupol, the city in the southeast of the country we have been talking so much about. after march 15th people have started to escape. about 35,000 people. and they're starting to arrive here in lviv. we heard reports that they were coming in on a train, i want to share with you some sound from 22-year-old valeria about what it was like there. we have firsthand accounts. i want to play the sound for our audience. >> just like small bomb but then and then, but last two weeks, the russia just shooting the big bomb. it's 500 kilograms and shooting maybe 20, 30 bomb by the infrastructure and factory, metal factory. 90% of factory is destroyed there. >> what did it feel like every

night? can you describe? >> it's terrible. just big hate for these people who just come. we come to help you, we come to -- but they don't help us. they just destroyed all of this. >> reporter: ali, up until now we've been relying on ap journalists in mariupol, the mayor has given a couple of interviews we've gotten a couple of audio clips but up until now we have not heard firsthand testimonies, accounts from people who survived mariupol and now they're arriving here. i have to say, watching them walk out that train station coming into the bright sunlight of lviv, people coming from mariupol look very different than what we're seeing elsewhere in the country. we met another family, a mom and daughter, and they described the conditions there as medieval, no food, no water, no heat.

they would chop down trees to burn for wood, melt snow for water. in the coming days as people tell their stories, give us their testimonies, this is going to be essential to understanding what happened in mariupol. ali. >> the people i met here who have come from mariupol are saying the same thing, no water, power, can't get in contact with their families who are there because there's no reliable cell service. molly, thank you for your reporting. stay safe, please, my friend. molly hunter in lviv, ukraine. with me is retired army major john spencer. he's the author of the upcoming book "connected soldiers life leadership and social connections in modern war," comes out july 1st. when you and i talked a few weeks ago, you were describing the ways in which people in ukrainian cities can engage in sort of urban protection. but it seemed fantastical.

it seemed like something people can do to be useful but it wasn't going to hold back the russian army. kind of amazing, it's actually holding back the russian army. >> exactly, ali. thanks for having me back. i put out some information over my twitter for people, it's amazing you see it happening, you see buses parked in the streets, many layers of barriers. that's the nature of close urban combat where conventional, the defender has all the advantage, it can hold back, i'm serious, the best army in the world and russia is not the best. >> how much of that is the technique and how much of that is that these russian soldiers are arguably less motivated, perhaps less informed about what their mission is in unfamiliar territory, versus ukrainians, some who are not well trained

because they're militia if you will, but they know where they are and they're fighting for their country. >> absolutely. the will to fight is everything in war. really, all wars -- urban warfare is hell on earth but once the russian soldiers lose the will to fight, the cohesion in themselves, they're not fighting for their cause and a nation, they're not going to face the hell that is urban warfare, a highly motivated individual with low military training with a few simple principles of how to resist while protected, can turn every street into a meat grinder and there's highly trained military with the will to pay the price in that city. it's going to be really bad for russia. it's going to be a blood bath. >> major, what happens next, when you look at afghanistan, ten years they didn't get no-fly

zones but the afghans were able to force the soviet army out. at this point does the performance and success of the ukrainian resistance help other countries decide to go in and help them or are they going to have to win this on their own? >> it's a tough one. i think with the political lines, nobody is going to actually enter the ground or shoot at a russian themselves without escalating it. i think the ukrainians can do this with the support that is being flown in, and that support needs to continue. the doors like in lviv are storying to close getting resources to them. no matter what urban warfare takes ammo. it takes four times the ammo, guns, resources, food, to fight in urban combat and they need that to continue. with that, they have a chance of exhausting the russian military and the political state that putin is in.

>> major john spencer, thank you for joining us again this morning, john spencer is the chair of urban warfare studies, host of the podcast urban warfare progress. joining me is a history professor at nyu, and author of "lucid" a author of an important and revent book right now, "strong men". in what you write about your book, you're talking about authoritarians, dictators who existed at a time when we did not have international organizations to condemn them or do something about it. we have trade unions like the european union, we have the united nations, we have nato and yet we still have behavior out of vladimir putin that reflects people you've written about from the 20th century. >> yeah. that's an interesting

continuity. and there is a certain type of personality who manages to get this kind of power. but you see the horrible destructive toll which hasn't changed despite the institutional, international context. and, you know, what major spencer was saying before, it's -- you have these personalities who are bent on annihilating an entire people. someone like putin just like earlier fascists and others, there's no moral code, no humanitarian sentiment, indeed that is a sign of weakness. there are no constraints on the type of war you wage. and the other tragic thing is they don't care about their own people, they scorn their own people, that's why putin exploits his people and they're cannon fodder for him. we're seeing the results of that in the lack of morale among russian soldiers now. >> we're showing video right now

of vladimir putin speaking to a very, very large crowd. he filled an auditorium, the biggest stadium in moscow with what appear to be cheering crowds, flying russian flags. this is a bit of propaganda. there's some reporting these are state workers bussed in, he's up there looking casual, talking about his big crowds. is this going to convince the russian people for long when they realize their money buys less and they're involved in a war they don't care that much about? >> no, it's not. i believe the reporting, multiple sources say that these people were bussed in, they were state employees, and this is, again, a continuity. dictators have to -- they have to threaten people to get into those -- they need those crowds. and everybody knows there's a consequence, but there's been interviews with people who are at that rally and they are not in favor of the war. what we'll see is, as shortages make themselves manifest and the

war goes on, and the toll on the russian people becomes more and more evident, it will be much harder for putin to pull off these kind of propaganda stunts even if he's threatening and paying people. >> so volodymyr zelenskyy has asked for negotiations. he seems to be ernest about this. he's even offered some of the concessions that some people wonder about, including committing to not joining nato. on the other hand, russia doesn't seem to send important negotiators to the important notions and you say that's a characteristic, they don't negotiate, they're buying time. >> that's right. autocrats don't negotiate because they also have to -- negotiating means you're taking another party as your equal in good faith and that's not the autocrat mentality.

the only person who could be an interlock here for putin now is the head of china. so instead what they do is they have these kind of fake negotiations which are delaying tactics, opportunities for intelligence, distractions for the media and they're not there in good faith. >> and, of course, we're going to be talking about china, which has sort of come down more closely on the side of russia than against them at this point. and even if you have no friends in the world, if you have china that can be quite influential. >> yes. and it's very important that biden spoke to xi jinping and said there will be consequences, because autocrats watch what happens to the other autocrat. and we know that china has designed on taiwan, and he's watching very closely what kind of price putin is paying for this transgression of the international order. >> ruth, thanks again for being

with us, professor of history at new york university and the author of "strongmen". coming up next a live report from the member of the kyiv independent who's on the ground in ukraine. it's become increasingly difficult and dangerous to report out of ukraine to bare witness to the horrors of the war so the world can see what's going on. three fellow journalists lost their lives in the past week doing just that.

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been killed in this unprovoked war, more than 1,000 injured. but russian forces have been met with heavy resistance from ukrainians. russian forces have not made significant advances toward the city and are roughly 18 miles to the east of it. joining me is alexi who is in kyiv right thousand, the chief operating officer and political editor for the kyiv independent, one of the largest english language media outlets. thanks for being with us. what is the situation in kyiv right now? we have been hearing for weeks that the russians are getting close and they're around it and there are skirmishes and shelling going on in the city, but what's the situation where you are? >> well, first of all, i'm currently not in kyiv. i had to leave and take my family to safety. but our newspaper obviously has people on the ground.

and the past three, four days have been relativity calm in terms of direct combat but heavy in terms of air strikes and shelling. russia is now using its tactic of attacking residential areas, hitting hospitals, kinder gar tens, regular buildings to impose fear on the residents. we know that the people in kyiv are afraid that it will turn into like mariupol or kharkiv in the near future. >> one thing you reported is that ukraine's military is building what you call a third line of defense around the city. what does that mean? >> well, basically we know that kyiv is now packed with territorial defense units, with regular army members. we have ground anti-tank

hedgehog. we have transportation used as defenses to block roads, we know that the military had blown up a bridge to halt russian further advances. so the army is preparing. we know that street by street, the military is imposing severe defenses to hold any possible attack in the city. we know that the city right now looks like a fortress. and according to ukrainian military it's practically impossible to breach those defenses right now. >> one of the things that's interesting is we heard that ukrainian forces and civil defense are really taking defensive positions more than offensive positions because of a shortage of ammunitions compared to russians and equipment. but more ammunition, equipment and hardware is coming in for ukrainians. obviously that stuff can't get into kyiv. at what point do the ukrainians

shift to an aggressive posture? i heard from richard engel, our chief foreign correspondent, that is starting to happen. there's some offensive attacks by the ukrainians. >> sorry, the internet is pretty bad now in different parts of ukraine. i would say that the territorial defense unit has proven to be extremely competent. something that we didn't expect, and ukrainian cities right now are very well prepared by those units that are not part of the regular army. we know that russia is trying to encircle kyiv, is trying to

encircle mick lie, has already encircled mariupol. those units are well quipped are already conducting trainings as we're speaking and they're better prepared day by day. so i would say that those units right now are obviously less equipped and prepared than the regular forces but are ready to put -- fight and protect all those urban areas. >> olexi i know you didn't fully hear my question but you answered it, thank you for that. olexi is the chief officer for kyiv independent. i'll speak to a member of parliament drumming up support for the country, advocating for new alliances and security

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this week russia was expelled from the council of europe, the oldest government organization. lisa is a member of the ukraine parliament and part of ukraine's delegation to the parliamentary assembly to the council of europe. she's returning to kyiv after the council of europe session which booted russia from the assembly. lisa, thank you for being with us. you have not only spoken to the council of europe but the european parliament. you're trying to get them to do the things necessary to put pressure on russia. what have you succeeded with and what remains to be done? >> i'm sure that european partners, friends became --

>> also, actually, many societies advocate for oil and gas embargo, even when the governments are reluctant, which gives me a great hope that sooner or later, even if such countries as germany and austria that are quite dependent on the russian economy right now, they will do this and they will cut all the ties with russia. this is what we are asking because we understand that we cannot finance russian terrorism and war crimes against ukraine anymore. >> tell me about the war crimes part because that was part of your conversation and it's been part of the conversation that ukrainian members of parliament

and your president have been having with the west. we continue see the images of schools, residential areas, and now shelters being targeted. did that have an influence on the people you were meeting with either at the council of europe or the european parliament? >> definitely. even comparison with genocide, holocaust, one nation is killing another nation without any hesitation targeted and even, you know, that putin is not even hiding it. a part of the schools and hospitals, maternity wards, they also target nuclear plants, which is incredibly dangerous because we understand that we may end up in a real nuclear disaster if something even worse happens. i want to remind everyone that currently they are controlling

six nuclear ukrainian plants and it's very dangerous situation. >> i want to ask -- >> the main question that we were -- >> i'm sorry go ahead. >> -- asking, we cannot stop the war by providing humanitarian assistance, although it's needed. we need to think of what security and alliances do we need, what steps in protection of our sky are needed to stop the war, stop killings. this is the main and a very important question. >> when you talk about the security alliance you need to be part of. obviously one that ukraine has taken very seriously, it's in your constitution is joining nato. this week your president said that is an aspiration that you and ukraine are prepared to give up, at the same time, russia has said it can agree to an

independent ukraine that does not have any alliances with anyone. tell me how you make sense of those things? >> well, as we say, we cannot make any compromises with the human lives with our territory. but if it's a question of alliances, of course we're open for discussion and for dialogue. if there are international guarantees that can be provided by other states that our security will be protected, but in real terms, not like it happened unfortunately to us in ukraine, almost three and a half weeks ago. regarding russia, honestly i'm not so optimistic. i think they, in a very crazy mind when there are no explanation with any common sense and any logic. if they would agree and stop killing people if ukraine says

no to nato, i would be the most happiest person in the world, unfortunately i think putin wants more. and we shouldn't have elusions about that. because that number of killed people that he already committed and that crimes and ruined infrastructure of ukraine, i think he's just enjoying to see that someone is so suffering and that the cities are simply -- almost don't exist anymore. so i think it goes beyond the nato question. but, of course, nato is one of the key elements that really can help to reach possible cease-fire and peace. i really hope so, but i don't think it will be enough for russia at this moment. >> lisa, we have to remind people that you and your colleagues who are members of parliament are also working to change world opinion, you are taking up arms, you are working

with your fellow ukrainians, it's pretty impressive. thanks very much again for taking the time out to talk to us. lisa is a member of the ukrainian parliament. i want to tell you whether i am right now. this is the rail station in hungary, where i started two weeks ago when i first came to central europe. we're expecting a train any minute now, one of the special trains that bring refugees in from the border, they cross over, get on another train and come in. we'll bring you that live when it happens. obviously we're up to about 300,000 refugees who have come into turkey. in an emergency meeting of the united nations security council on february 24th, that was the start of the russian invasion. ukraine's ambassador to the u.n. held nothing back addressing his russian counterpart telling him, quote, there is no purgatory for warm criminals they go straight to hell. what is a war criminal exactly and what constitutes a war crime, next on velshi. crime, ne. i use liberty mutual,

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i want to show you a picture from earlier this week. it's a satellite image of a theatre in the ukrainian city of ma mariupol, it was taken by a technology firm linked to the u.s. government. you can see a russian word on either side of the theatre written in large white letters, the word is children. it's a clear indication children

were sheltering under that roof. yet an air strike hit that building. ukrainian officials say hundreds were inside as russian bombs fell on the city. at least 100 have been rescued but hundreds more are still missing. after news of the attack, president biden made his strongest condemnation of vladimir putin calling him a war criminal. secretary of state antony blinken followed up calling him a war criminal. but there's a specific set of proses for calling something a war crime. it's known as the rules of armed conflict also known as international humanitarian law. it's a branch of law that seeks to limit the effects of armed

conflict on non-armed combatants. it was formed by the geneva convention after world war ii. before that, it was accepted that war is horrible. but attitudes change before, during and after the holocaust. so the allied powers created several precedents for prosecuting war crimes including the geneva conventions, which contain stringent rules that limit the barbarity of war, grave breeches of the convention or anything that violates the rules of armed conflict is considered a war crime. a war crime is the killing or destruction of anything or anyone that is not justified by military necessity. according to the international

criminal court in the hague, willfully killing civilians, using human shields, taking hostages, torture, rape, forced prosecution, corporal punishments, shooting combatants who have surrendered and attacking nonmilitary targets are war crimes so are the use of chemical or bioweapons. any attacks against a civilian population, including murder, extermination, enslavement and forced deportation. as we miss the targeting of civilians and their homes, hospitals and schools in ukraine, the question is not whether any war crimes are being committed but what will be done about it and whom. proving a crime isn't the hard part, but prosecuting is hard. the international war court was established by treaty in 2002 as the body for holding people

accountable. but not everybody signed on, united states, ukraine and russia have not ratiied the treaty. the u.s. says it would violate the constitutional rights of citizens. the icc can technically pursue war crime allegations within ukraine. another path to investigate war crimes is to create a tribunal of concerned states like nato or the eu to try vladimir putin and other russians involved that's the model used in the fur emberg trials. the military tribunal was convened to bring the highest ranking nazi war criminals to you justice. dozens were tried and sentenced

for crimes against peace. it was the model for an international war crimes court. the thing about that is the nazis lost the war and most of those convicted were captured. one of the idiosyncrasies of war crimes is that if you don't lose the war, they can't get you. f ye the war, they can't get you. his to italy. refresh. because subway now has italian-style capicola on the new mozza meat and supreme meats. love the smell of italian food. subway keeps refreshing and refres- it's 5:00 a.m., and i feel like i can do anything. we've been coming here, since 1868. there's a lot of cushy desk jobs out there, but this is my happy place. there are millions of ways to make the most of your land.

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msnbc. this is a special train that has just come from the border and another group of refugees will be getting off these trains. we've been following these arrivals for two weeks, some of the trains have upwards of 500 people on them. most of these are called special trains, they're added, generally speaking based on the number of refugees that have come in at any given time. this train has likely come from one of the border crossings that i was at last week. what happens is that ukrainians stop on the other side of the border, go through their formalities, then they get on another train that takes them just across the border to hungary and there they wait for trains that take them to destinations they'll be going to, in this case budapest, but some to vienna or other places like that. you're seeing people get off the train, you are seeing some

people carrying their goods, there also seems to be other people coming in from other cities. this is how thousands and thousands of people have arrived in this city over the last three, four weeks. in fact, as of last check, there were 300,000 roughly of the more than 2 million refugees, almost 3 million refugees who have left ukrainian who have come to hungary, budapest being the main center i'll tell you more about that. as i mentioned before the break, it's easy enough to find evidence of war crimes before the break but holding vladimir putin accountable or other russians accountable is a whole other story. the international criminal court has agreed to investigate war crimes in ukraine. but the odds of vladimir putin turning himself in to the criminal headquarters in the hague are slim to none.

without showing up to a trial at a different country, no trial can proceed regardless of whether charges are laid. joining me is the professor of international law at yale law school, a member of the advisory committee on international law for the department of state and expert on war crimes. thank you for joining us. i want to get your take on this. there are war crimes being committed, we believe, based on the things that we've seen with our own cameras and photographs. but how -- what happens after this? who can do anything about it? >> yeah, you're right. we've been seeing these horrific pictures and news coming out of bombings of hospitals of, you know, women and children, of apartment buildings. those all are on the face of it, pretty clearly war crimes. those are violations of the geneva conventions of the most basic requirement not to target civilians. so everyone is asking the question, what can we do? how can we charge those

responsible? and the most immediate answer to that question is the international criminal court that you mentioned. in fact, the prosecutor has announced he's launched an investigation. 39 states made a referral to the prosecutor encouraging him to move forward with that investigation. and there are already people on the ground beginning to collect some of that evidence. so it is clear that the international criminal court is going to move forward with at least investigations of war crimes and, as you mentioned, the prosecutor has the capacity to do that, because ukraine gave it the authority to do so by referring to matter to the court, even though ukraine is not a party to the statute, which is the law that created the international criminal court. >> what happens then? because the international criminal court doesn't have police, it doesn't have someone

who can get someone, frankly if vladimir putin never leaves russia again, what has to happen? because there's no war by ukraine against russia. there's no likelihood of russia collapsing. there's no likelihood -- or very little likelihood i assume of vladimir putin being likelihood putin being arrested. >> yeah. you're right. putin himself, it seems highly unlikely that we'll ever see him in the dock because he would either -- he would have to be turned over by his fellow henchmen and that seems highly unlikely or he would have to travel outside of russia to a country who was willing to arrest him. again, that doesn't seem very likely, but even though putin himself is not likely to stand trial, he's got a lot of people around him and a lot of people in the military and the government who could potentially stand trial. the people who are most likely to stand trial are the generals who are in the field right now. we've seen a number of russian

generals who have actually been killed in the fighting which is pretty unusual to have so many high-level generals die in the midst of fighting on the ground. that means they're close enough to the conflict to be subject to counterattacks from the ukrainians and that means there's a chance that they could be taken hostage, and that they could be arrested, and if that was the case they would become prisoners of war and they could be tried for their participation in the war crimes that they -- whatever war crimes that they themselves are responsible for. so that seems the most likely way forward. it's also possible -- >> what about the -- >> go ahead. >> sorry, go ahead. i was going to say it's also possible that even though putin and some of his other henchmen are going to be brought into the docket of the international criminal court they could be indicted in absentia.

they could be charged, and that would make it very difficult for them to ever travel outside of russia. so even though putin himself is not likely to actually stand trial, if he was indicted that would make it impossible for him to travel because if he ever was to travel outside of russia he would be subject to being arrested and brought in front of the court and that's true of the people who work with him. so even though it's possible -- it seems unlikely that they'll actually be brought to justice in a courtroom, the fact of indictment makes it very difficult for them to continue to do business as usual. they can't visit their london apartments. they can't go to their luxuriville as outside of russia. they can't go visit their families that are going to boarding school in the united states and the uk and that is, i think, an important consequence of moving forward with war crimes, prosecution even for

those that we don't actually expect to see in the dock. >> let me ask you a lot of the ukrainian parliamentarians to whom we've been speaking have been using the allegations of war crimes is the reason for the west to get invofrled. does it coveragel other governments to get involved when there are war crimes and i ask about the holocaust or rwanda or the balkans when we are witnessing things in real time and is there any military enforcement of the concept of war crimes? >> yeah. there is an obligation on states that are party to the geneva conventions which is every state in the world not only to themselves, respect the geneva conventions, but to ensure respect of the geneva conventions and part of that entails a responsibility that are called grave breaches of the

geneva conventions and these are the most serious violations of the laws of war and armed conflict and states do have responsibility to move forward with prosecutions where they can. now the where they can part is the hard part because they need to get their hands on the people responsible for the war crimes and as we discussed that's the tricky part, but if, say, someone was indicted for a war crime states that are party to geneva conventions have responsibility to participate in trying to seize them in bringing them before the court, and if a known criminal travels into a country that's party to a geneva convention, someone who has good reason to believe was responsible for breaches, states do have obligations to move forward with a trial. we've seen, for instance, in germany there have been trials of syrian government officials who fled along with refugees

into germany and germany has exercised universal jurisdiction to try some of these government officials and there was a syrian general who was convicted for his role in portraying prisoners who are being held in a prison in syria during the time he was working for the assad regime. so countries into have a responsibility to prosecute war crimes and not to let war criminals walk free. >> professor hathaway, thank you for your time and your expertise. i'm sorry that it continues to be relevant, but it is and not just in ukraine. there are war crimes being committed all over the world and i'd love to continue this conversation with you about some of those other circumstances. ana hathaway is a professor of international law and an adviser on international law for the department of state. the u.n. refugee agency reports 3.3 million have fled

war-torn ukraine. the latest estimate is more than 2 million ukrainians have crossed the border into poland and by far the most of any neighboring country. romania has moved into the second place for refugees. 508,000 there. moldova is next. close to 360,000 and hungary, where i am, has taken in 300,000, but this crisis as you have seen from the images has been especially tough on children. unicef estimates that more than 1.5 million children have fled ukraine since russia's invasion has begun last month. it has created a child refugee almost every second since february 24th. joining me is dr. irwin redletter, founding director for the disaster preparedness at columbia university and msnbc and the founder of the children's health fund. he's got more than three decades

of experience working with children in crisis, specializing in their trauma and health while in disaster zones. irwin, good to see you again. thank you for being here. people continue to get off of these trains and i keep seeing mothers with their children because men of fighting age can't leave which means the children are quite young and one of the things when we talk about refugees that are top of mind is how to get them into school because they're going to places where they have no familial connections and mow relatives and that, you say is probably top of the list after food and shelter. >> right. this is a complicated business of giving the children what they need, food, water and general protection. i saw some people getting off the train and i don't know if they were locals or refugees and adolescents who did not seem to be in an adult and they are in particular danger of trafficking and unfortunately, a lot of

exploitation of some older children getting off these trains in countries they are not familiar with and the other thing i was going to say i've been to refugee camps for syrians in greece, and i think the common denominator here for children is that there's not enough coordination. there are excellent places like the red cross and others and when it comes to the child's full array of needs are being met that means a lot of coordination that we've seen in the past and the school is particularly important because this affects the child's ability to succeed in the future and don't forget. besides all of the issues you mentioned, ali, they also have language barriers and a great unfamiliarity with the conditions that they're moving to. no stable home and the moms and people who are with them may themselves feel, of course, very

anxious. we need an up braela of protection that includes not just the short term need, but the long-term needs that includes especially education. >> let me ask you about the distinction that you and i have been talking about for years about child refugees about the remarkable resilience that children have and the trauma that they can suffer and you tell me it's got something to do with how old they are if they're going through this refugee and escape process. >> right. it's not just age, ali. there are other things, as well, but generally speaking, for the very young children if their mom and like you said, a lot of the fathers are not with them because they're back fighting in ukraine, but if the mom is able to provide? level of routine and lots of physical contact and hugging and reassurance for the younger children -- the really younger

children they would be fine. i'm more worried about those in adolescence and they're missing everything about their former life and it will be tough. it's not just about parents themselves, but people that have expertise in making sure older children are protected from the mental health point of view, ali. so there are a lot of factors to consider here and i'm hoping that we'll see here coordination of meeting those needs that i saw in refugee settings, but it's a big, long-term problem and we don't know how the children will be separated from familiar homes and communities that they grew up in. >> irwin, thanks again for your expertise. irwin redletter, founder of the