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♪♪ >> this sunday, the lib rat democrat leader, and our cover story. >> 4, 3, 2, 1. >> here on the campaign. >> reputation of a bit of a bully. >> the truth is that politicians are all main parties have been spent quite a long time trying to win over editors, forecasters, proprietors. >> theer press will not remain free in any country if that free press is t not also a responsib press. >> i think the relationship between politics and the media is resetting. >> what should be our greatest

defense against the abuse of power has itself become an intolerablean abuser of power. >> the fear of missing out means that today's media more than ever before, just tearing people's reputation to bits. but no one dares miss out. it's like a feral beast. >> i think we're in a very difficult stage. i think the power of the main stream media to scrutinize and hold to account government is being blunted. it's coming at a time when there is loss of public confidence both in politicians and in the main stream media.

the ownership of political communication has shifted. and that poses threats. but to understand how we got here, we need to look back. >> it was too easy for the press. you know, we marvelled at these ridiculous things mrs. thatcher was doing. we had never seen a prime minister sit in the mud with a calf before. it was all blissfully exciting. >> listen, i'm not standing -- >> she saw newspapers as very important, very strong back in those days. no 24-hour news, no internet. newspapers were still king really for the still image. she knew that was a powerful medium, and she would use it. >> when i was working for the "financial times," i actually thought that michael brunson,

who was the mrs. thatcher's hairdresser, he seemed to have such wonderful contacts with her. >> if we could record about 15, 20 minutes, we're thinking about a 10-minute slot. >> you don't want to be too expansive. >> no, no, as always -- >> now, how are we in shots? >> i was in my job primarily as being a comrade to take the time to explain to the public what people in power, people in government, people that are elected are doing and why. >> it used to be easier, it seems to me, because a cabinet minister or prime minister will be quite happy to talk to me directly rather than through kind of a whole filter of spats. >> i can see why you think this. but i think sometimes you don't necessarily realize quite the power that you have.

if you're a politician and you're trying to get your message across, you're going through a filter. >> did it send all those involved? probably. did it get to the nub of how governments operate at the time? probably not. >> i joined from "the financial times" where i had been a proper news journalist. and i spent hours picking up incremental pieces of information. and i had good contacts. and then i came to television, and i discovered that so much of it was about logistics. so, you were always at least two hours behind the curve. on very big occasion, you edited actually in this pub where we're doing this interview. we had a little pub above the

bar. we used to edit in there. it was incredibly hand to mouth. >> we had just gotten used to a four-hour news cycle. one bulletin is lunchtime, early evening, 10:00. >> and a big change around the time that 24-hour news started. >> sky news for the first time, you have around the clock information. >> from the the newsroom in london, sky news 24 hours a day. >> the fact that there was all this air time to fill and we could help feed it and we could help be part of that. >> sky television has been making the news itself today. day one of the satellite revelation put us around the world. >> well, i think it's terribly important for britain. i think it's good for the viewers. >> i think the fact of television suddenly having the

monopoly on the here and now, immediately, bam, 24 hours a day. >> and that meant that politicians weren't preparing set pieces anymore. they would always have to be on guard. they needed to make sure they came out of their houses looking ready to go to work, ready to govern. >> thank you very much. >> the fact that cameras on their doorsteps, following them around the country, following them around westminster, was a game changer. >> just go back a bit, just go back a bit. >> she's coming out now. >> now, it's time for a new chapter to open. and i wish john major all the luck in the world. thank you very much. good-bye.

>> right. you just want me to carry on as though you're not here. right. open or closed? >> closed. >> closed. >> can we just have the closing of the box. >> polls were not great for him, and yet it was quite relaxed. there wasn't too much control. >> come in with the cameras, is that correct? >> that's fine. >> when the economic policy blew up, he became more distrustful of the media. his relationships with some of the major editors and obviously famously with the murdock started deteriorating. >> good morning, mr. murdock. >> it was very much the end of a tory era, and uk feel that in

everything, in the way in which the parliamentary party and the way in which the press talked about john major. and then of course there you have tony blair. >> i'm really sorry to bother you on a sunday. >> it's all right. it's got to be done. >> i don't know. people are always saying to me, when's the election going to be? i'm the last person they tell. >> rising star. and as you know better than anyone, you know, this great communicator, a bit of a preacher, full of charisma, very fresh. so, it was very difficult at that time to compete. >> i think every single major interview, you would be doing -- so, as long as the public is not going to see it.

>> they both came to power, convinced the powers that be would work against them. i think that changed over time. they became far more confident in their dealings with the media. >> i remember the night of the election in '97 after john major was deposed and blair won, i shared an office with trevor cavner of "the sun," and he was putting his stuff away. he said, he's so different now. he said, under the major years, we dealt on blood red meat. we were the lions of the jungle. and now we're going to be thrown

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they still are powerful. >> i don't know. i haven't read it yet. >> i mean, my fear is that in the end he wants to be on the side of governments. >> yeah, i have no doubt that was a big part of backing us. >> john major had been destroyed in part by the media. and they were determined that the same wouldn't happen again. he knew that in a modern world you had to get hold of the media. he knew one of the ways to do it was to trade stories, which he did very effectively. he would give his favorites, people he could rely on, stories. and in return, they would tend to do things quite politely and kindly to the labour partys. >> how important for those for getting the message across? >> i felt it was really important always to have a conversation. you're trying to elevate the debate a bit. those types of press conferences

which, you know, would often go on, you know, 45 minutes, an hour? >> hour and a half sometimes. >> hour and a half sometimes, yeah. so, i thought that was a good thing to do and it gave us a chance to go into things in depth. it meant that the media felt we weren't at least running from questions. >> uh-oh pose his execution? >> excuse me. that is enough, thank you very much. i happen to want to express myself in my own way if you don't mind. thank you. now, on identity -- >> we used to relish -- tony used to relish doing difficult interviews because they were often a way to get a message across. you know, the whole year of john major and gus o-donald and all those guys, you weren't even allowed to say those briefings were taking place. we put them on the record. everything i said could be quoted. >> what i think mandellson, blair, and the like did was they

professionalized the government operation. to give a veneer of openness. in fact, i suspect that, you know, they tried very hard to make sure that they created an impression of openness. but the truth is they were screwing down the lid all the time. >> people talk about spin and tony blair and all of us, but you did actually expose yourself quite a lot. >> i always think with the spin thing, that was in part a media term that was invented because we had a very effective media operation. >> you had peter mandellson, the whole new labour machine telling cabinet ministers what they can say. >> oh, he wrote the rule book in many respects. in my early 20s, he was the guy. i copied it, absolutely. >> allister was an

extraordinary, talented, media operative. he wasn't just about interacting with the next day's news. it was also about the importance of getting a clear narrative across. >> we wanted to be proactive. we wanted to feed the beast. we were framing things, offering stories, making announcements. i remember being on a 747 on some trip and they were in the upper deck. and bear came up first and had a generous around him and allister came up and quite literally the pack move frd blair to allister. and blair said, i'm still here. >> so, absolutely his masters voice. >> yeah. you did, you know, famously give allister campbell our status

around. and status i felt very often to speak on your behalf sometimes before you'd even thought about it. >> yeah, that was the case, an issue between me and allister. but -- no, no one ever had that license. >> he said, look, if you can see the stuff that's on my desk every day, but i can't show it to you because it's intelligence. that was the thinking that led him to say, why can't we put out something that at least gives a sense of it? >> intelligence agency said, well, look, yes, you can have this information and you can use it.

but, you know, could you adhere, can you quantify here? >> reading the dossier, it appeared to say that within 45 minutes saddam hussein could launch an attack on britain. >> i got the report on the way to me. they say they never told us that. >> but it's written -- it is -- the words exist, don't they? >> what can you tell us? >> well, let me show you the report. here it is. iraq's weapons of mass destruction, the assessment of the british government. >> you use all your skills to make the best possible case for going to war against -- >> no, no, no. >> and i remember, for example, with the 45-minute claim, you know, we were handed a dossier. and there i was, you would say gaveling outside downing street. >> saddam has continued to produce chemical and biological weapons, that he continues in his efforts to develop nuclear weapons. >> clearly, you know, i took the

impression of what that was saying -- and no one corrected me. >> the 45 minutes thing that has become sort of taken on a life of its own, go and read what it actually said. it said -- it was talking about the length between commander control decisions -- >> i know, but you -- you -- you allowed us to hastily summarize it and exaggerate it in the process. >> i think i -- i honestly -- >> i think -- >> i don't agree with that. it was a big moment. there's still debate about whether intelligence services. some people thought it was not the right thing to do, some people did. >> that we have existing and active military plans for the use of chemical and biological weapons, which could be activated within 45 minutes. >> i think that sense of betrayal and distrust and also i think some of the media public put under the collar themselves for thinking, had they been too

credulous? >> it was iraq which really eroded the trust not just of the public but of the media, i think. they felt they had been taken for a ride back there. >> what was increase bli watching over that period was there was a real sense that journalism felt like it was falling out of love with politics. >> we became more cynical and less easy to manipulate. and when we felt the we had been misled and misused and possibly felt a bit guilty for the way we'd allowed ourselves to be used. >> that's it. beautiful. >> what was that? >> i don't think we'll miss you. >> nice. >> okay. they're on their way.

>> this will be a new government with new priorities. and i've been privileged to have been granted the great opportunity to serve my country. >> gordon felt really throughout his time that the media didn't rate or respect his intellect, his knowledge, his depth. he felt the media was shallow and superficial. >> are we talking about policy? and perhaps in the next interview we can develop. >> we want to talk to you at length about policy and the debate. >> i'll be going around the country -- >> we're trying to get as many answers as we can on that.

thank you very much indeed, gordon ram. thank you. you're staying here. you're staying here. >> no. >> during the election, gordon brown asked to have a microphone so we could see him going to talk to ordinary citizens. >> it doesn't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying you're -- all these eastern europeans are welcoming. what do they want? >> he got into his car unfortunately with his sky microphone on his lapel still -- >> thanks very much. >> -- and broadcast to the nation. >> that was a disaster. you should never have put me with that woman. just a sort of bigoted woman. that said she used to be labour.

>> did they have a right to broadcast it? >> love and war. >> the debates were coming this way. >> prime minister what do you say to a tv debate? >> i think he felt like it was the right thing to do to showcase the arguments on television. but it was massive game changing the election. >> during the first debate, they suddenly realized nick clay, oh [ bleep ]. he's got the most easy job in the world. he can just stand there and make pot shots left, right, and center. so, you're automassically looking at this thing saying, hang on a minute. this isn't a level playing field. >> the first ever televised prime ministerial debates in the

uk. >> the disappointing thing about doing the debates is that all theime you spent debating with your opponents is wasted time. and they're much less of a debate than some of the proponents think. >> there was a moment where nick looked like he was suddenly going to turn politics upside-down and really cut through. >> don't let anyone tell you that this time it can't be different. it can. >> i don't really understand why you thought they were that important. so, tell me why they're so important. >> well, all i would say to you is that the research did show that in that campaign, there was increased public engagement with the debate. that, to me, was job done. we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste,

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well, this is the first coalition government. >> david cameron i think was seen as kind of coocoo in the nest. he was perceived as not being a typical conservative. he was socially liberal and doing some things they didn't like. >> he wanted things to be professional. i think he obviously admired tony blair in a lot of ways.

>> you know, he would often ask me about blair and what it was like and how he did certain things. >> if you're in my position, the conservatives had lost three elections in a way to someone called tony blair, he was clearly quite effective at communicating and explaining. the biggest lesson in what tony blair did is he made changes to his party to make it electable. and that is substance. >> there was a sense of doing things differently. we had web cam, which felt very modern at the time. >> right. welcome to web cam. and watch out bbc and itv. you know, we're coming after you. >> when we set up web cameras,

which everyone laughed at at the time, it was an attempt to communicate directly to people, to voters, to talk about what you were doing and why you were doing it. anyways, that was ahead of its time. >> we were just on the frontier of the real explosion in terms of the digitization. you could unfiltered, unmediated speak to people. >> i rather regret that we didn't stick with it and do more of it, not because i wanted to bypass the media and ignore them. well, it's important. if you're running a political party, which i did for almost 11 years and a country for six years, the process of communicating is incredibly important. >> very conscious? >> very much so. we'd been on a visit to a naval base -- >> i think he has a great future. thanks very much. >> coming back, and he'd

literally said, i need to buy some fish tonight for dpiner tonight. the motorcade pulled into this -- i think it was a morrison's -- and i said, can we take a picture. she thought about it. she said, okay. go on then. and he went around the supermarket with a basket. it was really fun. it wasn't a photo op. the team just seemed to get bigger and bigger. and it did get more -- it was quite relaxed at the beginning. and it got more and more controlled as time went on. i think it's the first time downing street saw an employee. they were literally just there to manage the media. >> so, what are we doing today? what are we up to today?

>> there were things you stage for yourself. >> well, i didn't actually say either of those things just for the record. there we are. that's part of the problem is that you -- you know, you highlight i was one of the first conservative leaders. you highlight the issue of climate change. and that has been turned into a phrase that i'm not going to repeat that you just used. >> over the past few days, the whole country has been shocked by the revelations about the phone hacking scandal, that these people could have had their phones hacked into in order to generate stories for a newborn is simply disgusting.

>> what became an inquiry blew up on your watch. you said, too close, reference to others. >> i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give -- i give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> did you see her every weekend or most weekends during the period 2008, 2009? >> i think not every weekend. >> those texts between david cameron and rebeka brooks. i think it exposed in a slightly success-like way where the strings are. >> occasionally you would sign them off, lol, lots of love, until i told then he didn't sig anymore. >> the relations too close. and when issues and problems came up about use of information and all the rest of it, not enough was done. >> do we want a path that is too sort of in bed with the

government? no, we don't because the whole point of view is that you chat, you scrutinize, you ask difficult questions. so, it is important that the two are separated. >> i will go to parliament and propose that the british people decide our future in europe. >> you had a pro-immigration, tawny mayor of london advocating for leave. >> they were wrong then and they are wrong now. >> they gave the campaign a legitimacy. that is the physical presence of boris johnson. >> taking back control. >> if i'm thomas bach, chief officer of the campaign.

i started when there were only a few employees and my responsibility was setting up the data infrastructure of the campaign to ensure that it could galvanize the uk population. >> every week we sent 350 million pounds to brussels, money that's wasted. >> in a sense it was project fear and it was scary. >> we were able to achieve more on some of the online live watching than was reported of the hits than the news at 10. the campaign could put out mess sanls to a much wider and more interested audience. we could put a 40-minute speech up. the main stream media weren't interested in doing more than ten seconds. >> do i feel that the campaign played falsely to the truth? yes. do i think broadcasters handled themselves in glory in terms of working out what was going on?

no. it's fascinating when talking to people who leave a campaign and they're saying we looked at people's preferences and we gave them information which tickled those preferences. >> the way social media site versus used algorithms to create an echochamber for people to hear their own opinions, that has increased divisions in our country. how do we get back to having a sense of impartial and independent media? >> the problem was that in pursuit of balance i actually think many of the media lost their objectivity. >> the british people have made a very clear decision to take a different path. and as such, i think the country requires fresh leadership to

take it in this direction. >> i have just been to buckingham palace, where her majesty, the queen, has asked me to form a new government. >> this was a moment of calm. theresa may managed to unite both sides. so, i felt the media coverage itself was pretty positive, quite complementary. however, behind the scenes, it was difficult. >> when somebody's feeling awkward and nervous, it comes through in the pictures. and it was always difficult to get her in actual pictures. >> i don't think she felt at home doing media stuff. i think she felt threatened by that sort of environment. >> in africa that time when she started dancing, she seemed to come into her own there. and it played really well the next day in the papers. you know, the papers seemed to love it. you know, it's like, she's found herself. another three times in africa,

you couldn't stop her dancing after that. >> i tried to explain to her that people just want to know that their prime minister is like them. >> i found her as much as prime minister because -- >> because we wouldn't let you, adam. >> at a time when you needed the media at least on board if not on side, she was fundamentally ill-equip frd a communications point of view to sell what she was trying to sell. >> i will shortly leave the job that it has been the honor of my life to hold. i do so with no ill will but with enormous and enduring gratitude to have the opportunity to serve the country i love. we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair

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to show up. for staying connected. the questions they weren't able to ask. show up for the first day of school, the last day at their current address. for the mornings when everything's wrong. for the manicure that makes everything right, for right now. show up, however you can, for the foster kids who need it most— at helpfosterchildren.com he was the king over the water. you only just had to pick up the phone, and all of you were there. a mutually beneficial media played the game with him while he was at city hall. what he did in the public's mind was say he's different from cameron. he's different from blair and

brown. he's different from all these conventional politicians. >> mr. johnson, we'll be with you very shortly. >> how long do you need me for? i have to do loads of interviews. >> i will be with you in minutes. >> that sense of lampooning took him all the way to the doors of downing street. >> it's all the more fundamental to his appeal at a time when trust and faith in politics is low. i think that's what gives boris johnson his opportunity. if they're all the same, if you can't really trust them, we might as well have one who makes us laugh. >> in the beginning, the relationship was mutually beneficial. he was and in many ways is the ultimate provocateur. >> i remember being in israel with him as mayor and he went around a fish market and he picked up every fish on every stand and held it above his head. he knew what made a good

picture. i remember being in tokyo where he was playing rugby and knocked this 6-year-old boy flying. and then you remember all the famous picture of him hanging on the zip line. i think david cameron famously said, for any other politician, that would have been a disaster. but for boris, it's a triumph. >> girl power. >> girl power! >> when boris johnson had just won the election, it was a great victory. >> the work is now being stepped

up to make 2020 a year of prosperity and growth and hope and to deliver a parliament that works for the people. thank you all very much and happy christmas. thank you. >> i knew him a bit from the telegraph. so, i messaged him, congratulations, that was the result. assumed he would be on the fairground and was told, no, he won't be coming on today. nobody will. and with no particular explanation. but what that was was a moment of challenge of power or the system. and of course boris johnson has just subverted every rule of journalism in a sense. >> oh, bless you. thank you. >> he peddles optimism. i think the difficulty that boris has had is that he's a more natural campaigner than he

is an actual leader. and the difficulty of actually making decisions that you have to then live with day in and day out is something that i think all prime ministers find difficult. and i -- i wonder whether he in particular finds difficult. >> personality and having a character today that's interesting to people, that is a big part of politics, much bigger than in my day. and because there's not that in depth die on policy in the same way there used to be -- >> thank you. >> -- you can be an entertainer and win. is that something that the public really want, or is it that that's all they're being given? >> sir, what are you afraid of?

>> from this evening, i must give the british people a very simple instruction. you must stay at home. good evening, and apologies for disturbing your saturday even with more news of covid. and i can assure you i wouldn't do this unless it was absolutely necessary. >> how do you think of the way that news conferences were used during the pandemic? >> well, that was more likely all days in one way. the pandemic came along and there was a need to be seen by the public every single day. >> because of the numbers, sheer numbers of people that were tuning in, live in your tv n your living room is boris johnson day after day giving you that leadership. >> good afternoon, and thank you very much for joining us. >> but then when the pandemic's

over, you know, people just go back to the way it is. as we emerge from the pandemic, as we leave all that behind, you know, will johnson's administration revert to no press conferences other than when it suits them? you know, probably. i think personally that's a mistake. i think people want to see their prime minister. they want to see him held to account. >> what we would say is we are the conduit to the public -- >> you're not the only conduit to the public anymore. and that's the problem. i would have said you're the only conduit to the public, you know, 20 years ago. you're not the only conduit now. >> what else is there? >> broadcasting yourself. >> let's just record this. let's just film that. let's just post it there.

>> boris was in the north today. boris was doing this today. boris was announcing a new train run today. unfortunately, side towards that because it's comfort. it's not as risky. >> it's not curated. it's not challenged. >> no, i agree. >> they've now got a team of their own people. you know, david cameron tried to bring in his own photographer back in 2010, got murdered in the press for it and had to drop him after two weeks. boris has now got three in house photographers. >> obviously it didn't work out and we had to change the model. >> ironically now there's a whole team of them. >> boris was always able to get away with things that mere mortals can't. >> the prime minister of poland, we've known each other for years. >> does it really matter now

that most of his spontaneous appearances are to a camera of which he has full control, saying what he likes without being challenged. does that matter? >> absolutely it matters. i think prime ministers should be challenged. questions should be asked. they should be made to defend what they're doing. and they should be made to defend what they're doing not necessarily on their own terms in front of the camera. is the taxpayer paying for what could simply be propaganda. >> he doesn't do unstructured news conferences. he makes a lot of use of social media. how do you feel about that? >> i have mixed feelings about it. look, it's important for a government to be accountable. that is the bottom line. >> boris johnson went and visited a hospital in newfoundland. one made a big deal out of the fact he wasn't wearing a mask. and that was only shown because there was a wire agency photographer there. if you look at the pictures on

flickr issued by the government that day, there wasn't a single picture of the prime minister not wearing a mask. had there not been a news photographer there, they would have been unaware of him missing a mask. >> mask on, sure, thank you. >> if politicians doing their own social media, their own videos, and then demanding that the public service broadcasters had to take all this uncritically fed by them, then that is a very dangerous slippery slope. >> hi, mr. johnson. mr. johnson, you said there's a one in a million chance there would be no deal. it's not true, is it, mr. johnson? >> i think the tragedy of that for now is that it probably sets a precedent for future governments. >> do you not want to answer my question? we're going to have a deal or no deal. one in a million chance? >> could you have done more do you think to expose within the

confines of balance journalism, which a major broadcaster stands for? do you feel culpable in some way? >> i don't think we are culpable for that because i don't think that we have indulged in giving soft coverage to politicians because they're entertainment. and i think in britain it's something that we've generally been pretty aware of. >> there's no coincidence who you blame. you blame politicians. you blame journalists. but i would say the debate today is far less healthy. i think the public are far less engaged in it even though there is more media than ever. and i think that's a bit of a problem for the health of our democracy. >> we've got to try and have a relationship, still distant and

confrontational. but, you know, understanding that you've got legitimate questions. but we've also got a responsibility to explain what we're doing and can we try and find a bit of space for both things to coexist. >> when the public understands that it pays a price for the entertainment as the key question of political leadership, that's when this thing shifts. and the question in my mind is the media going to be in a position where it's actually able to answer that demand from the public? or has it become so changed by social media and by the need to just chase after every passing news wave that it finds itself without the capacity to offer what the public actually wants. >> how much is that question? >> i don't know. i think it's a really open question today.

>> these people do have power over our lives. we do try and hold politicians to account. i always think the first function is to make sure that someone in power communicates what they're doing to the viewing public. and i'm the medium for that. the second thing is to challenge it.

this is sky news. our top story, the war in ukraine enters what could be a deadly new phase. the battle for the south intensifies, dozens of people reportedly killed in a missile strike on ukrainian military base. in mariupol, reports of street to street fighting as ukraine calls for peace talks and more help from the west. >> biden, macron, you're great leaders, b