have a great end to your sunday. tonight on "the mehdi hasan show" how vladimir putin's love for a nazi-loving obscure fascist philosophy explains so much about the war in ukraine. professor timothy snyder is here to help me break it all down. plus i'll ask senator ben cardin about the future of u.s. sanctions on russia and putin's maga-style rally in moscow. i'll speak to one exiled russian journalist about his campaign to combat moscow's disinformation machine. good evening. i'm mehdi hasan. the nazi conquest of europe. that's how ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy described russia's illegal invasion of his country in a speech to the israeli parliament today. he spoke as russia tenned its air assault, its forces firing on eight cities in the east of ukraine over the weekend, according to ukraine's national

police. and in the wake of vladimir putin speaking of victory and glory and vowing at what looked like a trump-style rally on friday in moscow, that russia would win the win full stop. we've seen words like naziism and fascism thrown around a lot in this conflict. so tonight, to understand what is going on in ukraine right now, what is going on inside of russia too, and what's driving vladimir putin, we need to talk about a man named ivan ilian. he's important to all of this. born in 1883 in russia to an aristocratic family, a graduate of law, who became a right-wing anti-communist philosopher. he was exiled on the orders of lenin himself in 1922. he went to germany where his mother was from and soon became a fan of mussolini who had come to power in italy that same year that he was exiled. it wasn't just mussolini, though. he also became an apologist for

hitler. in 1933, he backed the nazi takeover of germany, writing an article headlined "national socialism, a new spirit." in exile, he formulated a vision for a very russian form of fascism, which he called redemp tif. ilyin ended up leaving germany before the war began and died in switzerland in obscurity in 1954. now, you might think a russian exile who was an apologist for naziism wouldn't have much support in russia today. wouldn't be allowed to have much influence given what hitler and the nazis did to russia. tens of millions of russians died in world war ii. today moscow tries to justify its illegal war in ukraine by falsely claiming they're once again fighting the nazis. and yet since the fall of the berlin wall and the end of

soviet communism, russian elites have been turning to ivan ilyin, the nazi apologist, in increasing numbers. one particular russian has led the campaign to rehabilitate this long dead, far-right philosopher, and his name is vladimir putin. in 2005 president putin, who was obsessed with restoring russia's imperial past, repatriated ilyin's remains to moscow. on the same day that putin laid flowers at ilyin's grave in 2009, he declared, and i quote, it's a crime when someone only begins talking about the separation of russia and the ukraine. putin was echoing the russian nationalism of ilyin, who referred to ukrainians in question marks, and who in tim snyder's words, to speak of ukraine was to be a mortal enemy of russia. in 2006, putin reclaimed for russia ilyin's personal papers

from michigan state university where they ended up. according to snyder, who perhaps has done more than any other scholar to cast a light on ilyin's major and malign influence on russian politics to this very day, quote, by then putin was citing ilyin in his addresses to the general assembly of the russian parliament. putin relied on ilyin's authority to explain why russia had to undermine the european union and invade ukraine. when asked to name a historian, putin cited ilyin as his authority in the past. by 2014 the kremlin was sending copies of ilyin's writings to regional governors as well as russian civil servants. and in 2015, an article in foreign affairs was referring to ivan ilyin as putin's philosopher, while also describing him as a conspiracy therapist and a russian nationalist with a core of fascist leanings. so if a fascist political philosopher is a guiding light,

an inspiration for the russian president, what does that mean putin himself? take a listen to what president biden has called his russian counterpart in recent days? >> oh, i think he is a war criminal. he's a murderous dictator. a pure thug who is waging an immoral war against the people of ukraine. >> tough words. but one word biden hasn't used so far is fascist. so let me lay it out for you as clearly as i can tonight. putin, inspired and energized by a philosopher who has been dubbed a total fascist is now himself behaving in a fascistic way. russia itself under putin with all of the cracking down on dissent and arrests of protesters an closing down of media organizations has become in the words of one russian academic, a moderate fascist state. now, what exactly do we mean by fascism, a word that gets thrown

around a lot and refers to more than authoritarianism or despottism. i want to put up a quote from a historian who literally wrote the book on this. it's a long quote but worth reading and considering. fascism, he says, may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity in which a mass based party of committed, nationalist militants working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemp tif violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. let's just take that last line about goals. external expansion. well, that's putin's war in ukraine. not content with crimea and the donbas, he's now trying to

conquer the entire country. and internal cleansing? well, listen to the man himself speaking direct to the russian nation just a few days ago. [ speaking foreign language ] >> if that stuff sounds scary to you, that's because it is. that speech was pure, unadulterated fascism. as was the nationalist garbage he was spewing to a massive fascist-style rally in moscow on friday, celebrating the 2014 illegal russian annexation of crimea. and, look, if you are a regular viewer of this show, you'll know i've spent the past year talking a great deal about the "f" word,

about fascism in the context of american politics and the rise of trump and the authoritarian tendencies of the modern republican party. but tonight we need to recognize that over in eastern europe we are facing a fascism of a much worse, much more violent and much more brazen kind, in russia. a fascism that is embodied by vladimir putin, and which is inspired and informed every step of the way as tim snyder points out by one ivan ilyin. quoting snyder, putin has used ilyin's ideas about geopolitics to portray ukraine, europe and the united states as existential dangers to russia. joining me now is yale historian tim snyder who drew attention to ilyin's role in the rise of fascism or putinism in "the road to unfreedom." tim, thanks for coming back on the show. first off, thank you for your

work on all of this, for highlighting the influence of this guy, ivan ilyin, on putin. what would ilyin make of putin's presidency and his invasion of ukraine? >> well, on the presidency, he would very much approve. ilyin's idea of politics was that a one-party state was too much. there really should be zero parties. there should just be a leader. incidentally, putin had the article which said that sent to everyone in his party so they would know just how important they were. he thought that a state should exist for the leader. there should be for institutional barriers. we see that in russia today with no consultation. the president of russia can send an army out to invade another country. he thought that elections should be purely ritual exercises of support for the leader, which is just what they are in russia today. and if we think about the war, ilyin, as you've already said, had the idea which putin repeats that russia is a kind of

all-embracing civilization whose borders are defined only by the will of the leader. ilyin refused to use the word ukraine. his idea was if you talked about ukraine, you were attacking russia as such. so i think this invasion of ukraine is very much in the spirit of the kind of thing that ilyin would be supporting. >> tim, do you think the average russian knows that their president, who keeps going on and on about nazis and ukraine, is guided by a philosopher who praised hitler, praised mussolini, wrote a piece in defense of naziism? how does putin explain or justify that even to himself? >> it's interesting, because it's not exactly a secret. i really appreciate your doing this segment talking about a philosopher. it's really important that we recognize that putin does read books and cite philosophers. so ilyin is not exactly a secret. his collected writings were

distributed to government employees on a mass basis in early 2014 when russia was about to invade ukraine. putin, as you mentioned, cites him and the equivalent of the "save the union" address. he did that multiple times. this is not a secret to russians. educated russians would have an idea who this is. the fact that this is a fascist is tricky. in popular discourse in russia, and especially in the mouth of vladimir putin, fascist doesn't have any meaning, just like nazi doesn't have any meaning. it just means the other side. it just means the enemy. so the fact that you are a fascist doesn't mean that you can't call somebody else a fascist. >> so true. and also interesting point about putin reading because our experience of fascism is the republican party and there are not many readers in there. experts, tim, are telling "the washington post" that we could be looking at a stalemate on the ground in ukraine. as recently as yesterday, president zelenskyy called on russia to meet for peace talks.

yet putin seems just as determined as ever to destroy ukraine. based on your understanding of putin and of the teachings of ivan ilyin, can there be a middle ground for men like putin? will putin at some point accept a negotiated peace? >> i think these two questions hang together very closely. when putin talks about denazification, he doesn't mean getting rid of nazis. what he means is i, the dictator, have the right to say what the word nazi means. by denazification means getting rid of any ukrainians who are willing to resist anything he tries to do. he means destroying the state and destroying the nation. so he's reached the depths of skits owe fascism. but he's operationalized this to mean he has the right to determine when this war will over. it will only be over when ukraine is so humiliated that it's willing to accept his

characterization of it. and of course the ukrainians are not going to do that. so we're in for a very long struggle, i think, unless mr. putin himself starts to feel that his power might be threatened. i think that's the moment where this might start to change. >> yeah. and of course there is a neo-nazi militia fighting in ukraine but it doesn't run the country as some russian propagandaists want us to believe. as i'm going to point out later in the show, russia has neo-nazi militias fighting on the ground in ukraine too. one last question before i let you go. i've got to ask about the putin rally in moscow on friday. it looked to me like a trump-style maga rally filled with the same far-right nationalist rhetoric, the same gaslighting. there is a real overlap between american and russian fascist movements right now, is there not? >> well, the international far right learns from itself. ironically it's much more connected than the international left is.

the right copies everything from itself. but i was -- in that rally, i have to say i was struck also by the fact that putin is reaching for these christian themes, going back to ilyin. he's talking about the death of russians in war as a good thing. he's talking about the kind of redemptive things that unify us. those are openly fascist themes which he's pursuing in this. but it looks a little bit like trump. it also looks like a kind of very low intensity nuremberg. they're not really waving those flags very quickly. and when the cameras are close to people, there was a kind of marked lack of enthusiasm. so this isn't a rally which really seemed to be terribly successful. >> yeah, putin there in his designer threads doing his best to rally the crowds. tim snyder, thank you so much for your time and your analysis always appreciate it. next, we are live in lviv,

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welcome back. we're going to go live now to ukraine to nbc news correspondent cal perry in lviv. cal, today the russian military said it carried out hypersonic missile strikes. that's the second time it's done so in two days. what more do we know about such strikes? >> well, we know that there were these, quote, unquote, hypersonic strikes that impacted here in the west about 36 hours ago. they say that they hit an underground bunker that was filled with ammunition and weapons. no way to independently verify that that's true. they have been starting to target here in the west trying to hit any resupply chains. we do also know they're using it here in the east, and these are the pictures you're seeing on your screen tonight. just in the last two hours in kyiv, in the ukrainian capital,

we understand the bombardment there as vicious as it has been since the beginning of the war. multiple explosions taking place in that city. it's really happening right now, mehdi. in mariupol, it seems as though the intensification has even picked up there. more than 80% of the buildings have been completely destroyed in that city. this is now one of those places that we talked about in the way we talk about aleppo. it's a place that's being bombed into rubble and the rubble is being shelled. you have civilians hiding underground in this city unable to even bury their dead relatives who lay in the streets. in kharkiv, it's not just the bodies of civilians, you have the bodies of russian soldiers in the streets. a pretty good indication that this advancement, their invasion did not go as planned and that is why. we've heard this from the u.s. state department and the uk ministry of defense and that's why they're turning their attention to indiscriminately shelling these residential

areas. >> cal perry, thank you for that update and please do stay safe. coming up, senator ben cardin joins me to react to claims that ukrainians are being forcefully deported to russia. first, richard lui has some breaking news. >> good evening, thank you so much. some breaking news first. the supreme court saying justice clarence thomas was admitted to sibley memorial hospital in washington, d.c., on sunday evening after experiencing flu-like symptoms. he underwent tests and has an infection not related to covid-19. he is being treated with antibiotics. the court's press release said the 73-year-old's symptoms are abating and he is resting comfortably. he will participate in the consideration and discussion of any cases on the basis of briefs, transcripts and audio of oral arguments the statement continued to say. justice thomas expects to be released from the hospital in the next day or two.

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the mariupol city council claims that ukrainians are being forcibly deported out of the city and into russia. according to mariupol's mayor, residents were taken to, quote, unquote, filtration camps before being redirected to remote cities in russia. he continued, what the occupiers are doing today is familiar to the older generation who saw the horrific events of world war ii when the nazis forcibly captured people. can russia be stopped, is the question. the biden administration continues to provide arms, and here in the u.s. the house of representatives voted thursday to revoke normal trade relations with russia and its ally, belarus. the senate has yet to take up that measure. joining me now, democratic senator from maryland and a member of the foreign relations committee, senator ben cardin. senator, thanks so much for coming on the show tonight.

first off, your reaction to these shocking claims that ukrainians might be being forcibly relocated to russia. >> well, mehdi, first, it's good to be with you. it's all part of mr. putin's propaganda. he's trying to show that ukrainians want to come to russia when they're really trying to seek refuge from russia. i think it just feeds into his misinformation. it's outrageous. we know that the ukrainians, all they want is the russians to leave their country and they certainly don't want to go to russia. >> and, senator, there's a lot of talk, especially from your republican colleagues in the senate, about escalating sanctions against putin and co. but i wonder, how do you envision these sanctions ever being lifted or de-escalated? i wondering, would you support a zelenskyy peace deal with russia, say, that led to an automatic revoking of u.s. sanctions on moscow? is that going to be part of any

future deal? >> at this point we want to ratchet up the sanctions and put as much pressure on as we possibly can. i hope the senate will pass the legislation i authored that will extending the individual magnitsky sanction to enablers and also cut off the trade. yes, if mr. zelenskyy is able to work out an agreement and if part of that is for us to release the sectorial sanctions, that's fine. but mr. putin needs to be held accountable for his atrocities. he needs to be tried as a war criminal. no settlement of this conflict can be complete unless mr. putin is held personally responsible. >> it's interesting you mention trying him for war crimes. what we're seeing in ukraine do seem to be war crimes. joe biden called him a war criminal earlier this week. you just said a moment ago he should be tried for war crimes. where should he be tried? most people would say the international criminal court, we, the united states, have not signed up to the international criminal court. do you think we should now?

>> well, there's several ways that that can be done. we can create a special venue as we did after world war ii for war criminals such as mr. putin. we could use the hague. there are different venues that we can use without the united states joining the icc. >> so you don't support the united states joining the international criminal court right now? >> i think we need to work with the international community. there's some complications in that regard because of issues unrelated to the ukrainian situation. so i think we need to take that up as a separate issue. it should not slow us down one step in having a forum to try mr. putin as a war criminal. i think we can work with the international community. there's firm unity among the international community and the global community against what mr. putin is doing. let's seize this moment to make sure that the politics of the icc do not interfere with a venue to try him as a war criminal.

>> you mentioned a moment ago the sanctions and putin's own accountability and we all agree that putin and the people around putin, the oligarchs, the enablers, should definitely face harsh sanctions. what about ordinary russians? is there a danger that we're squeezing ordinary russians too hard that aren't responsible for putin or for the war in ukraine but are facing a wages crisis, a savings crisis, prices rising in their supermarkets, bank runs? is there a danger that we're squeezing the russian people instead of the russian rulers? >> you should really ask that to mr. putin. mr. putin is causing this misery on his own country. make no mistake about it, his corrupt regime takes away from the standard of living of russians so that he can pursue -- people of the fruits

of their economy. so what we're doing now in protecting against the invasion against ukraine, yes, we will go against the russian economy in order to dry up the funds that mr. putin uses to pursue war. this is all caused by mr. putin's behavior. so when russians ask what happened to their economy, they should look to one person and one person only, and that's mr. putin. >> oh, i agree with you in theory, that is true. it is vladimir putin's responsibility and of course he is to blame. i just worry that russians may blame the west or become even more aggrieved because of sanctions. that's just something we have to factor in. just on sanctions when we're talking about sanctions. you support sanctions on russia clearly, and yet you've also led the way in the senate to oppose and criminalize any boycotts or sanctions against israel. quote, unquote, bds movement.

isn't it time that we in america acknowledge that calling out a human country for human rights abuses, calling for sanctions or boycotts whether it's russia over ukraine or saudi arabia over yemen or israel in the occupied territory, there's nothing inherently racist or wrong with that, is there? >> an individual can make whatever decision they want to make, a business can make whatever decision they want to make. what we don't want to see happen is a foreign entity put pressure on an american company that wants to do business and to black list that company from being able to participate in international commerce. that's what we fought. that's the legislation i've introduced is to protect american companies to make their own decisions. if they want to boycott israel, that's their right, but they shouldn't be intimidated to do that because of the action of an international organization or state. >> yeah, i was just trying to establish that we all agree what we've seen in russia is that boycotts, sanctions, these are tools of foreign policy that can be used successfully.

in russia hopefully it's going to work to get vladimir putin to back down. let's talk about putin, senator cardin. he did a propaganda rally on friday. it was reminiscent to me of a maga rally here in the u.s. full of aggressive nationalism, gaslighting the crowds. how do you think the two compare? is there an overlap? >> well, we did see some similarities. make no mistake about it, these rallies are planned for mr. putin. they're trying to, again, tell the russian people about patriotism. it's to support mr. putin. nothing could be further from the truth. it's part of his fabrication. it's part of the lies that he tells his people and he supports it with these scenes saying that he has the support of the russian population. he's cut off information so they can know exactly what is happening. this is all part of his playbook. it's just outrageous.

you know, mr. putin needs to be stopped. he needs to be stopped in this campaign against ukraine and we would hope that the russian people would understand that by following his leadership, they're hurting their country and they're hurting themselves. >> senator, one last question for you on the supreme court. this week judge ketanji brown jackson, president biden's historic supreme court nominee begins her confirmation hearings in the senate. how much smearing of her, how much racist dog whistling do you expect from your republican colleagues? senator josh hawley is already accusing her of being soft on child sex offenders. >> i met with judge jackson this week. he is eminently qualified. he has experience on the district court, on the appellate court in d.c. i chaired her hearing when she was first nominated for a position that required senate confirmation. she is a very well qualified

individual and i think she'll do very well during the confirmation hearings this week. i expect that some of my colleagues, knowing the way they are, will do things that i find just regrettable. but at the end of the day she's going to be confirmed and be a justice on the supreme court of the united states. >> she will get all 50 democratic votes in the senate, including joe manchin, in your view? >> i think she's going to get confirmed. i don't want to predict how individual members will vote. but i'm hoping the republicans will support her also. i hope that this becomes a confirmation process based upon her qualifications and if that is done, i'm confident she'll get a majority of senators supporting her. >> well, we know that three republican senators voted for her just last year to be confirmed to the bench she's on right now. senator ben cardin, thank you so much for your time tonight. i appreciate it. >> my pleasure, thank you. next, we're calling out the hypocrisy of putin's constant

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welcome back. it's time now for what i call the 60-second rant. this week on russia and the far right. start the clock. i'm so tired of hearing vladimir putin and the russian government going on about nazis and ukraine, denazification as the

reason for their illegal invasion. do they have a neo-nazi problem? yeah, it does. is it a nazi country? no, don't be ridiculous. russia is making this allegation? hello, kettle, this is pot, you're black. there's a vicious mercenary group with a nazi ideology, there's the militant group russian national unity who do nazi-style salutes. there's the russian imperial movement or rim which was sanctioned by the trump state department and accused of providing paramilitary style training to white supremacists and neo-nazis in europe. these groups all operate freely in russia. not only does putin not do anything to stop them, he's send them to fight across the border. you know, maybe russia has a bigger one. next, a journalist's mission

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i know that the russian people are not aware that such things are happen, so i urge the russian people and the russian soldiers in ukraine to understand the propaganda and the disinformation that you are being told. i ask you to help me spread the truth. >> arnold schwarzenegger posting an impassioned plea to twitter where it's racked up more than 30 million views. schwarzenegger is a huge deal in russia. don't take my word for it, ask vladimir putin. the former california governor and action star is one of just 22 accounts followed by the russian president's own official twitter account. but seriously, what schwarzenegger is doing in that video is so important. he's talking directly to the

russian people and taking aim at the kremlin's digital iron curtain. in recent weeks russia's crackdown on the free press has gone from bad to worse. it has forced independent journalists like an award-winning investigative reporter to flee the country. earlier this month he tweeted never thought it would come to this but i did have to leave russia, crossing the border on foot in the middle of the night with my panic-packed bags on my back and my dog in tow. he joins me now from latvia. thank you so much for coming on the show tonight. talk to us about your journey out of moscow, first of all, and what motivated you to leave. what was that like? >> hi, and thank you for having me. well, it was a pretty much momentous decision because on march 2 i was still making plans for a week ahead in moscow. on march 3 it was already clear that we should leave now, like right now because there were

rumors circulating already that the next day martial law would be introduced in russia and that would surely mean suspension of most civil liberties like free press, which i'm part of. and quite possibly close the borders. it didn't quite happen, but when we arrived in latvia the next day, we found out that my website, medusa, was blocked by the censorship ministry and the russian parliament in quite an extraordinary decision in a joint session of both chambers, which doesn't happen that often, passed a law that effectively criminalizes my work. so yeah, we were right to just pack up and leave immediately. we basically moved -- we made the border control point and passed on foot. >> you are now an exiled reporter. how has your job changed over the past few weeks? you mentioned that your website was blocked. are you still able to reach your fellow russians back home in any

way? >> indeed. and actually the blocking hasn't really impacted our readership. we have millions of people on our website every day and on our app and telegram channel which jumped from 500,000 subscribers to well north of a million in a few days after the start of the war. so yes, people are seeking out independent, uncensored information. i'm just really proud to be able to provide it. >> you recently tweeted that we may need to redefine the word "disinformation" due to this war. you said in the russia/ukraine case it's no longer about electing a bad president or exiting an alliance because of a bunch of petulant man children wished it. many russians are brain washed whose victims are their own kin. you mentioned brainwashing there. that's not the right tweet but that's the tweet i quoted. you mentioned brainwashing there. do you believe putin can actually turn a country the size

of russia into another north korea? >> let's hope not, but i can't really tell you anything because as i told you, just a few weeks ago i was still making plans as though it was peace time and it was not. so i can't make any predictions, long term or short-term predictions for tomorrow. but yes, it's quite terrifying to watch people you actually know and trust, showing them pictures and send them the links to news stories which they can dismiss as fake news. when you're telling them about things you've seen yourself and they're telling you, no, this couldn't be because we're told on the news that there is no war in ukraine and russia is just getting ukraine cleansed of nazis and that's it. the news is telling us that the russian military is not striking civilian targets, that the only precision striking military targets, that's it. and it's quite disarming when you face that.

not just some strangers, but people in your family. >> yeah, i can imagine not just strangers but people in your family is bizarre, alarming and depressing. alexey, during the cold war western media and other independent media the globe wou circumvent with short wave radio broadcasts. in 2022, of course, that strategy needs some updating, especially in a world of social media and digital iron curtains. is there a place for social media videos like the one i just played from arnold schwarzenegger. >> i just checked before our segment. he posted the same video and telegram which many russians do use. i don't expect it to be blocked any time soon because the state propaganda, it's actually using the same infrastructure.

and the russian state media channels have been banned from twitter and facebook, so they have no other option other than news telegram. yeah. it's close to a million views there. and i think it's exclusively russians who use telegram. so, yeah, i mean it's great that we have it and i don't expect it to be banned any time soon. >> and one last question to you. at the start of the show i talked about vladimir putin and the influence of fascist ideology and thought. a moderate fascist state. how would you describe russia today? >> if you have any doubts as to whether putin is sincere when he's talking about getting rid of nazis, i implore everyone to google the head of russian space agency who was a member of an

openly nazi organization. you mentioned it in your 60 second rant. the russian national unity. >> yes. >> and i quite recently, less than a decade ago he was filmed at these neo-nazi rallies on live television, and he's never been de-nazified. i hope that answers my question. >> may be at home rather than abroad for the russian government. alexi, thank you so much for joining us. i know it is late night. i appreciate you getting up for us and i hope you can stay safe. thank you. >> thank you for having me. >> coming up at the top of the hour, the political editor of kviv independent oleksiy sorokin. stick around we'll be right back, me and ayman chatting. ch.

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thank you for watching. we'll be right back here next sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern live. and you can catch me monday through thursday live on 7:00 p.m. eastern. now as ever it is time to hand it over to my friend, ayman mohyeldin. before i go, i have to say i watched some of jen psaki's

white house press briefings on ukraine this week, and something stood out to me. have a listen. >> is the white house and administration facilitating transfer of s300 anti-air missiles. >> president volodymyr zelenskyy made his request for a no fly zone. he no doubt is aware of president biden's position on that. is there any scenario in which president biden would change his mind? >> would a strike on supplies or anything really automatically be met with a military forceful response or would it be a conversation among allies on how to respond? >> of course those are all valid questions. but what is often missing from a lot of these press briefings are questions from reporters aboutdy lomasy, about peace, about negotiations. i do worry in our industry there can sometimes be a bias unwitting, even, towards conflict and combat and confrontation, escalation. and we have an obligation, don't

we, as journalists not only to ask about arms transfers and no fly zones but also about what this administration is going to get a peace deal. >> no. you bring up an excellent point. i have been looking at the sheer devastation in mariupol and kharkiv. i wonder if it should be about saving ukraine and ukrainian lives or whether it is about defeating russia. i can tell you when you are on the ground, those losing loved ones and suffering, they usually want the stopping to fight before they think about larger geopolitical amply cases. with every weapon we send to ukraine and questions like we just heard there, we're, it seems to me, more focussed on defeating russia at this stage. but we also need to know what the u.s. and the west, as you were saying, will accept as a peace agreement. because russia will undoubtedly want any and all of those

sanctions lifted off of it. that's not something ukraine has the power to do. >> yeah. >> it will be have to be co-signed by washington, which means the u.s. officials have to be asked what will the u.s. accept to achieve peace and be willing to do to achieve that peace? and not just about what the u.s. can do in terms of providing fighter jets, bombs and bullets. >> yeah. so on that note, i had senator ben c. on the show earlier. i asked him. i was pleased to hear him say that, yes, the united states would be up to rolling back sanctions based on putin actually pulling out of ukraine, which is important. but then when i asked him about the impact of sanctions on russians, he simply said that is the fault of putin. is it about defeating russia or trying not to turn ordinary

russians against us. that would be the worst outcome. they are incited into more nationalistic attitudes. it's just something we have to consider. >> no. and it's absolutely a valid point. certainly when you listen to people like lindsey graham talking about a regime change, we are going into a whole different territory once you start going into that rhetoric. great show as always. >> thank you. good evening. i'm ayman mohyeldin. good evening, everyone. i'm ayman mohyeldin. it is 9:00 p.m. in new york. 3:00 a.m. in kviv where there are reports of new explosions on the ground. we will get a live update on that. we are following new developments on those peace talks between russia and ukraine. turkey's foreign minister saying the two sides have