statement, then the two days of questioning, which i'm told could go as long as 12 hours. republicans say that crime is going to be a big issue. the white house says that with endorsements from the fraternal order of police and the association of police chiefs in her pocket, this should be a good, quick stat. that an example of what these hearings are like, the judiciary committee has 70,000 pages of documents about her from the obama library. >> yeah. and we certainly will be providing coverage of the hearings all week on "way too early" and msnbc written large. thank you very much for being here, and all of you for getting up way too early with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. major developments in the russian invasion of ukraine. fresh attacks in kyiv overnight, but so far the ukrainian military has kept the russian go

liath from taking the capital. the war is headed toward a stalemate where the fighting continues but neither side advances. russia claims victory over the key port city of mariupol and orders ukraine to surrender. the word from ukraine, not a chance. the kremlin is rejecting ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy's request for face-to-face meetings with vladimir putin. all of this comes as president biden prepares to travel to belgium to meet with nato allies. we just learned he will also visit poland, where nearly 5,000 u.s. troops have been deployed and where 2 million ukrainian refugees have sought some sort of comfort in the light of this brutal war. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, march 21st. we start with that major turning point in this bloody conflict. according to an assessment from

the institute -- the study of war, the invasion is now headed toward a bloody stalemate. after 25 days of fighting, vladimir putin has failed to carry out his primary objective, to seize ukraine's capital and force regime change. the analysis from war experts concludes that if the war of ukraine settles into a stalemate condition, russian forces will continue to bomb and bombard ukrainian cities, devastating them, killing civilians, even as ukrainian forces impose losses on russian attackers, and conduct counter attacks of their own. this is already happening. also, with the russian military running out of manpower, weapons and supplies, analysts and officials tell "the washington post" the next two weeks will determine if russia can continue on ward. the front lines are stagnant. and western intelligence estimates russia is suffering up

to 1,000 casualties a day. while the ukrainians say that number is even higher. they are now calls for the west to take advantage of this window of opportunity and step up its military support for ukraine. having failed to take kyiv, senior u.s. officials tell the "wall street journal" they believe the kremlin is now shifting to plan b, compelling the ukrainian government to accept russia's territorial claims and to accept neutrality as well, meaning don't join nato. ukraine has already rejected those conditions. >> well, on thursday, on tuesday they suggested it was a possibility. i think on all of these conditions, we're going to see movement back and forth as they continue to try to figure out a way to get together. >> often it looks like there's no way out. let's bring in u.s. special correspondent for bbc, katty

kay, columnist and associated editor for the "washington post," david ignatius, and former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, bill taylor joins us. good to have you all. >> so david ignatius, there's a quote from the times yesterday that caught my attention, from ben hodges, former commander of u.s. army in europe, he said this, russian generals are running out of time, ammunition, and manpower, and the central caveat to my assessment is that we, the west, led by the united states must accelerate and expand the support we're providing to ukraine on the scale and with a sense of urgency of the berlin air lift. this is where we are again, 1949. i mean, the russians have turned back the clock, and this suggests we need to do the same and be even more urgent with our shipments into kyiv and across ukraine. >> the urgency of shipping weapons is as clear as can be.

unfortunately so are the limits on the weapons that we can provide. the debate really is over now, about a no fly zone, and pretty much over about providing migs, although there's still some discussion. my fear, joe, is that as we admire and applaud and just emotionally embrace the struggle of the ukrainian people, we're going to overstate their capacity to resist this huge army. and i think it's really important not to do that, not to get caught up in the emotion of their resistance. we're now entering the most difficult period of this war. >> that's a really important point. >> i need to stop you there on your first statement. we see what's happening in mariupol, they're moving forward. the ukrainians are refusing to turn it over, saying that we're going to keep fighting. >> they're flattening it though. >> let's brain emotion out of it. i have yet to hear any u.s.

commander, nato commander, retired general saying that the russians have any chance of taking kyiv and holding it. >> so they have a chance of taking it. it's just at what cost, what would be left. >> and the second part of that, and holding it. right now, they're actually fighting the best war they can fight which is outside of the city. the second they go into the city with 2 million inhabitants, every military expert says it gets bloodier. >> others on your panel would have a better sense than i, especially master taylor who's been there, but i feel that the size of the russians are escalating in ukraine. the weapons they have to call on are devastating. >> right. >> and what we know of the way they fight wars as in grozny, involves a level of destruction that is terrible to think about, the resolve of the people of kyiv, like the people of kharkiv, like the people of mariupol is just extraordinary,

and mariupol, it was a russian demand early this morning to give up, give up or we're coming in. we're going to fight street by street, and you know what, the ukrainians are fighting street by street and that will happen in kyiv. >> can i ask you, david, i'm curious, we're looking at these, and you're right, people are cheering on the ukrainians. we're looking at studies, reports, military assessments and one after another says the russians do not have enough troops, especially with how poorly they have been going to take kyiv, to hold kyiv, and to take other cities. this is like iraq square. you have stories of women who are commanding 20 people getting in their electric vehicles, going out of town, camping in the woods for three days, and helping take out a tank column, and they jump back in their cars and go home. this is something, i mean, this actually seems like a far more

daunting task than even iraq was for the united states. >> i'm not disagreeing with that, joe, and we have some just tales of heroism almost now on every street corner. so i'm not in any way denying that. i just, the russians have more force to bring to bear. they have had a chance to reorganize. and i fear that this next period is going to be even bloodier and more difficult. what i hear is that the russians are escalating in ukraine, escalating at home. the level of arrests in russia is extraordinary. the fears that they're going to escalate in domains, attacks that could spread to nato countries. >> what that seems to mean, if they continue at this clip, they will kill more ukrainian citizens. they will remain in a military stalemate and more russian soldiers will die. it seems like a lose-lose proposition for all sides.

not that putin cares, but at some point, enough russian mothers may. >> enough russian mothers may but i think david's right, the potential for escalation is still very powerful on the russian side. i had a conversation with a couple of european diplomats this weekend. there are real concerns that they use one and possibly two tactical nuclear weapons in the course of the next couple of weeks, within ukraine, specifically targeted at those military supply lines. if they can stop the supply line -- >> what's the impact of that if they use nuclear weapons. does nato stand on the sidelines? >> jens stoltenberg did not set any red lines. the only red line is an attack on nato itself. but he was very evasive about chemicals. he was not asked about tactical nuclear weapons used within inside ukraine, god forbid that were to happen. it's just a demonstration of how russia can still escalate, and

all at the same time, you've got huge pressure being put on those nato countries in terms of refugees, and if that's a tactic as well that the russians are using, you get millions of ukrainians putting pressure in poland, putting pressure on other nato countries and hold out the stalemate, i agree, everybody is cheering on the ukrainians, and they have done a phenomenal job. it's not over yet. >> the question is how do the russians win if you want to even use that word. you look at the numbers, and you look at the 40 million people they're fighting. you look the at resistance. i don't think there's a general in the united states active or retired that would say, oh, yeah, i can go into russia and take kyiv and take ukraine over. not at this point. >> i think the concern might be that russia might have a very evolving definition of winning that doesn't involve any types of boundaries, whether it be war

crimes or anything else. they practically announced war crimes over the weekend. ambassador bill taylor, what are the options for nato, which hasn't collectively done anything yet. there have been nations that have done things on their own, offered support. when you talk about article 5, isn't the collapse of ukraine, isn't that a threat to nato. doesn't that completely blow up nato's security. >> ukraine is very important to nato. ukraine is very important to the west, and it's very important that putin lose. it's very important or at least he not win, that ukraine maintain its independence, its sovereignty. most of its territory, this is going to be important for a post war recovery. it needs to have the people and the resources to rebuild. it needs to come out of this

intact. basically in tact. and it is an interest for nato and nato countries. it it is also demonstrating the importance of and the abilities of the ukrainian people and military. ukraine is an asset, really for nato, and they ought to recognize how important that is. maybe the summit will recognize that. >> what will be the factors they'll have to take into consideration at this summit? >> so they'll have to consider that if in the worst case f president putin somehow does what i don't think he will do, he can't hold ukraine, but in that case, then that moves russian troops to the borders of nato nations, and we're already responding. nato is already responding to that by moving forces into poland. so that changes the force posture. >> david, so russia uses tactical nuclear weapons on

ukraine, do you think there's a european country in nato or the united states politician that is going to be able to withstand the pressure from the public, not only in america but also in europe to actually go in and move in into ukraine. excuse me, into ukraine. because i can tell you right now, you look at the polls, they've swifted wildly in favor of no fly zones, in favor of the united states doing more. katty talks about the visceral reaction in europe, a nuclear weapon set off on a european continent. i'm saying, that or chemical weapons will not be acceptable to the american people or to europeans to just sit back and go, oh, well, now they're using weapons of mass destruction in ukraine. we'll just sit back and let this continue. >> well, wars are not managed by

polls, thank goodness because polls go up and down, and military strategy has to be consistent and continuous. i think that the effort has been from the beginning to signal to the russians that what the limits of this game are, one limit is not 1 inch of nato territory will be attacked and they have said that again and again, and they mean it. a second limit, less clearly specified is not in use of nuclear weapons, and there's great concern a tactical nuclear weapon might be used in demonstration by putin. >> does president biden need to comb out today, does the head of nato need to come out today making no mistake, chemical weapons is a red line that cannot be crossed and if you cross that line, we will not hesitate as barack obama did. we will come in and we will

destroy your ability to do that inside of ukraine. >> i think there's a feeling, joe, that announcing red lines in advance is usually a mistake. you don't want to, you know, say in advance what you're going to do and restrict your options. in this case, we do need to deter russia. all of our efforts to persuade them from october to the date the invasion began failed. >> so how do we do that? >> more important are the military to military conversations that we hope are taking place between the pentagon and the russian military because announcing it on television that this is a red line doesn't necessarily make a red line. >> but they can pick up the phone and get a message to russia, if you use tactical weapons, you know -- >> stoltenberg was asked about it three or four different ways yesterday on chemicals and he would not say it's a red line. >> aren't they already past a red line. killing babies, civilians,

maternity hospitals, they're flattening strategic city, mariupol, they're telling the people they have a certain number of hours to leave before there will be military tribunals. >> they're kidnapping ukrainians and taking them into russia. >> what red line would look serious at this point? whether it applies to nato rules or not, ambassador taylor, right now europe and the west looks like it can't help these people, and i think even, you know, people across america, i think we have polls that we'll show later, but there is a growing interest in helping these people, in doing something that would stop this brutality. red lines at this point are far from behind us. >> red lines are behind us. and the brutality that we see, it's gut wrenching. it's beyond words.

you can't even express the horror that we see on that. and there are a lot of ideas now on. maybe it's some subset of nato. maybe it's not nato as a whole. maybe it's individual nations that will pull together and do something along these lines. >> zelenskyy has talked about this. >> ukraine is rejecting moscow's demand to surrender the besieged city of mariupol, in exchange for safe passage, if you can imagine what they're going through right now, and they're rejecting it. ukraine's deputy prime minister said this morning there's no chance of surrender. yesterday moscow had called for ukrainian forces to lay down their arms by today and leave the city or be considered quote with the bandits, as another horrific attack rocked mariupol. russian officials bombed an art

school where hundreds of civilians were sheltering. local officials say around 400 women and children had taken refuge inside the school before it was bombed. the number of casualties is unclear but the city's mayor says hundreds might be dead. >> so david, talk about vladimir putin's strategy for those of us watching in the west. for those of us who actually do value human life. the ukrainians put in large letters children in russian where children are seeking shelter in mariupol, and they targeted it. children is used as a target. a reason to actually, oh, here's an opportunity russians think to kill a lot of children at one time. they did it again here. i'm sorry to be so ignorant, but what is the strategy there other

than to -- >> terrorize. >> terrorize, and actually for vladimir putin in the long run, put himself in a position, in a hole he can never climb out of in the international community ever, ever. he thinks this is grozny and aleppo. it actually, you know what, it's moving in that direction but the whole world's eyes are on this in a way they weren't on aleppo for whatever reason. >> i don't think he has a strategy for victory. from the beginning he's lacked an end game. he's digging himself deeper into a hole. i'm saying that the amount of damage he can do even as he gets deeper in that hole is enormous. that's why zelenskyy is aggressively seeking negotiations with him because he sees putin i don't want to say as an irrational leader but as a leader who keeps doubling down even at the cost of russia's

future. russia itself is going to be destroyed by the sanctions that are being put in place. >> they are being destroyed. >> people are leaving in droves. >> yes, and putin is in a rage about that. he condemns them as scum and traitors. the rhetoric he's using i find more and more frightening. what's his plan? i don't think he has one. i think everything you said about the impossibility of this russian force subduing ukraine and making it a peaceful place that accepts russian occupation, it's not going to happen. >> never! in a way that's more dangerous, the less he has a plan, the more dangerous he becomes. the more his back is up against the wall, the more dangerous he becomes. >> and by the way, that's been our calculation for two month right now, and look where it's led us. at some point we have to hold him to account. at some point we have to hold him to standards, you know, he's used nuclear blackmail to allow us to absolutely wipe out

mariupol, to destroy ukraine, to destroy cities, and it's been nuclear blackmail. of course the soviets did this all the time too. so the question is, what's next, is poland next? is it finland next? i mean, at some point we have to stop playing by his ground rules because look where it's gotten us. but let's talk about settlement for a second, because it keeps going back and forth. at what moment, zelenskyy says bitterly, the west. well, they're not all we thought they were. maybe we don't want to go into nato after all. maybe we'll be a neutral country and then of course a few days later, he says, never, we're against neutrality. i'm curious where this ends up if it's a negotiated settlement. it seems to me crimea, the donbas region, a neutral ukraine is where this is leading. is that something the ukrainians

will ultimately have to accept? >> first of all, joe, your last point is exactly right. the ukrainians should have to decide, we should not be pushing the ukrainians one way or the other. that's number one. number two, president zelenskyy wants to secure, provide security for his people, for ukraine, and he's looking for ways to do that. he's come to the conclusion that nato is not that answer, at least for now. it's still in his constitution, that could still be an option later on. it's not for now, and he's looking for something for now. he's looking for other options, other ways to secure his people. >> i would like to know why nato is not for now, but continue. >> the united states in 2008. >> if you look at the pictures, because we want that to stop for now. that's why it's not for now. it's just at some point, we're going to have to figure out what the ukrainians will accept. >> and the ukrainians will have

to decide what they will accept, and president zelenskyy has been pretty good at understanding where ukrainian people are. they are 100% with the deputy prime minister said no, we're not surrendering, and president zelenskyy is exactly there. >> president biden will travel to europe to meet with european allies. the president will leave washington on wednesday. the following day he's scheduled to attend an emergency nato summit and meet with members of the european union and g7 in brussels. on friday, he will travel to warsaw to hold a bilateral meeting with the polish president. press secretary jen psaki has confirmed the president is not planning to visit ukraine during the trip. now, joining us from lviv, ukraine, ali arouzi, and josh lederman, let's start with the

latest on the ground, what do you have. >> reporter: the situation in mariupol continues to be desperate. when we talk about siege and starvation, that's exactly what's happening there. the russians gave ukrainian defenders in mariupol an ultimatum last night, they said lay down your weapons, leave the city, and we'll allow humanitarian aid in, and civilians out. unsurprisingly, the ukrainians who showed resolve refused to capitulate, they said they're not going to surrender their city, and 300,000 people remain trapped in that city in appalling conditions. no running water, no electricity, very little food. the russians have been bombarding that place. they have hit apartment buildings. they have shelled churches. they've held children's hospitals, and as you mentioned, they hit a theater yesterday morning. they dropped a bomb on it. that theater is all but

destroyed. there are about 400 people in there, by all accounts, they were women, children and elderly. many of them are still trapped in there. of course because there's a lot of heavy fighting going on in mariupol, that's hampering rescue efforts, not only in the art school but a theater that was hit as well. the deadline has now passed for the ukrainian defenders to give up that city, so it's unclear what's going to happen in the coming days, the coming hours in mariupol, they were given a chance to get out. they have refused it. so the situation there is only going to start to get much worse i think. >> ali, thank you very much. let's go to josh lederman now in brussels, as we look ahead to some very high stakes meetings this week, josh. >> reporter: the big focus here in brussels today is whether the eu is going to follow the lead of the u.s. by banning russian energy imports.

foreign ministers from the eu meeting today to discuss that stop. and there's a disagreement of how far to go with that. you've got countries like poland experiencing the biggest influx of refugees from ukraine calling for a total trade ban on russia, and then you have other countries like bulgaria, almost entirely dependent on russian energy which is saying, look, we cannot afford to do that right now. some of the compromises they're looking at, potentially include culting off russian oil but not russian natural gas, which of course provides about 40% of the gas supplies here in europe. that sets the stage for the meetings that will be taking place later on this week. president biden will be speaking today by phone with the leaders of the uk, italy, germany and france, to find out how they're going to proceed with the meeting on thursday where the president will be speaking with

the eu and nato. how they can help ukraine fight the russians, including potentially with air and missile defense, and nato's own alliance about sending more troops to the eastern flank of nato, as well as more ships and airplanes ready to defend the nato alliance if it were to come to that, mika. >> nbc's josh lederman, and ali arouzi, thank you very much for the live reports. >> let's go to the middle east for two quick items. zelenskyy is talking about israel as a possible place for the two leaders to meet. talk about israel's interesting positioning here. and how many inside the united states have thought they were far too close to vladimir putin during this crisis. >> they have been for kyiv, our american allies, handed

extensive regulations with russia, their communication between jerusalem and moscow is continuous. so neftali bennett, the prime minister early in the conflict, about two weeks ago began trying to see if he could mediate it. he went to see putin, talked to putin. went to see zelenskyy, conversations with each. he did this in partnership with, it seems, german chancellor olaf scholz, and he put together a package. i think the problem is the package is unacceptable, basically to both sides. we're in one of those situations where each side still thinks that on the battlefield it can get more than what it can get at the negotiating table. ukrainians do not want to -- just see the news, they're not going to give up. they're going to keep fighting. they think they can get more advantage. putin clearly doesn't want to talk. zelenskyy has said, let's have direct negotiations, i'll meet you in istanbul.

we're in that situation where, you know, war is a test of wills. >> and we actually heard representative from turkey who was trying to say that right now putin is in a position of weakness. he wants to negotiate from a position of strength. he's going to try to exact more pain. one final comment. really quickly, we have to go to break. but word broke last night that we had sent patriot missiles to saudi arabia. the audis, the uae, they felt as if we have been far too hands off in their battle with houthi rebels. talk about this, is that connected to the conflict in ukraine. is that connected to gas prices, why now? >> the saudis and emirates are

difficult allies, they're facing escalation from houthi iranian-backed rebels, and united states wants to help them stand firm against iran. obviously the hope is saudi arabia will increase oil supplies at a key time. we don't want to depend on iranian oil to soften the price, we would like to have the sawties. i think that's the essence of this. still ahead on "morning joe," a developing story out of china where a plane crashed and a long week on capitol hill begins today for president biden niece nominee to the supreme court, what's ahead for judge ketanji brown jackson. >> and national security analyst clint watts at the big board with the maps breaking down the latest movements by russian forces. you're watching our continuing coverage right here on "morning joe." we'll be right back. ht here on joe. we'll be right back.

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get the new samsung galaxy s22 series on comcast business mobile and for a limited time save up to $750 on a new samsung device with eligible trade-in. . so breaking this morning, a passenger plane with 132 people on board has reportedly crashed in a mountainous area in southern china. the boeing 737 plane was operated by china eastern airlines. according to the chinese state media, rescues have been dispatched. there's no immediate word on the number of dead or injured. we'll have more on this developing story as details emerge. supreme court justice clarence thomas has been hospitalized after experiencing flu like symptoms. thomas was admitted to a hospital in washington, d.c. on friday night. the 73-year-old was diagnosed

with an infection and is being treated with antibiotics. thomas is said to be resting comfortably and expects to be released in the next few days. and in just hours, president biden's supreme court nominee, judge ketanji brown jackson will face senators for the dirs day -- first day of her confirmation hearings. judiciary members will grill judge jackson on her record and beliefs before holding a vote which if approved will send her nomination to the full senate for consideration. today's hearing will feature opening statements and is expected to last about five hours. turning back now to the breaking news in ukraine, the war in ukraine, and the latest developments on the battlefield. let's go to national security analyst for nbc news and msnbc, clint watts at the big board. clint, which cities are you watching today, and what has

evolved over the weekend that people should know about. >> mika, it seems like russia has gone to phase two of their invasion. they have taken places. now they're trying to secure them, and essentially create some attrition over time. the bad news, strikes in lviv this week, and down here in mykolaiv using cruise missiles, and hyper sonic missiles, hard for air defense systems to interdict them, and they have killed several batches of ukrainian soldiers and civilians in different locations. separately, i think there's three things to watch. here in kyiv, last week i would have thought they would be trying to encircle but they have been stuck in many places here, meeting stiff resistance, and instead, seeing an encirclement, you're seeing them in defensive positions. the belief is they're going to try and bring artillery, closer in range so they can hit key targets in kyiv center. at this point they're firing

long range missiles in. also, this access here, bravari, this convoy has been stopped again. rear supply lines have been hit, they can't get fuel in. you're seeing them push artillery boards. separately, the east is the place to watch. last week we talked about the intense battles around kharkiv. the counter offenses in the ukrainian military. they have tried to advance to a location known as isiom, essentially a point by which the east over here in donbas can be connected with this corridor, and again, the ukrainians, they're even doing counter offensives, the russians taking sustained casualties and intense damage here, losing lots of armored vehicles. it is the place to watch in the east. separately, we got to look to the south. we started off talking today about this extreme devastation in mariupol.

mariupol, the russians are just increasingly moving very slow increments, trying to surround that city. this is an awful situation, with essentially trains coming in, moving people into russia. two things to watch here, and really the big one is mykolaiv. mykolaiv is what they need. the russians need to take here. the ukrainian military continues to stop in mykolaiv, and if they can hold, it would make it very difficult for the russians to go for odessa. >> so would you -- it seems most of what we have read this weekend, militarily this has turned into a stalemate, that seems to be from looking at the map and what you're saying is it does appear to be a stalemate, and in some places, you even have the ukrainians launching counter offenses. >> that's right, joe. i think there's two things to really look at. you're hearing calls back in russia for conscripts, bringing in more forces, bringing in

mercenaries from the wagner group and bringing in forces from gadhafi's groups in libya. some of the groups in the east have been destroyed, just ripped apart. second, you're seeing them set up defensive positions now, instead of advancing, they're starting to set up defensive position, dig in and lay mine fields. you're trying to hold terrain. the russians saying we're going to bring our massive indirect fires, artillery, missiles, aircraft. that's a losing strategy to me when you look at how many fronts they're trying to advance on, and lost personnel. they're reorganizing the leftovers of destroyed divisions, with new forces coming in. >> clint watts, thank you so much. coming up, a look at this morning's must read opinion's page, including katty's take on a humiliated, beaten down, humbled america. do we look beaten down to you?

i'm joking, it's a great op-ed, we're going to read it. >> she says america is learning the art of humility. >> the art of humility. >> "morning joe." >> i'm working on it. >> i'm kinder and gentler. >> there are a lot of things he can do. that's not one. "morning joe" is coming right back. >> please. b back. >> please. vo: here we are again. an overseas conflict hikes up our gas prices. and oil ceos rake in record profits. it will keep happening. until we break free from oil. right now, we need congress to ramp up production of clean, renewable energy sources. energy that doesn't run out, so it costs families less. energy that's made here in america. energy that can't be manipulated by erratic dictators across the globe. because real energy independence is built on clean energy. refresh italiano subway now has italian-style capicola on the new supreme meats and mozza meat.

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it's 45 past the hour, a live look at the white house. we're here in washington where a lot is happening as the white house and the administration prepares for a big trip this week addressing the ongoing aggression in ukraine. and katty in your new piece, the bbc entitled war in ukraine, america is learning the art of humility, the country that began this century by invading not one

but two countries has become more modest in the face of the nightmare that is ukraine. whether it is the lessen of afghanistan or the nature of this particularly difficult catastrophe, we don't know, but the white house handled this crisis very differently. from the start it has consulted with its allies, many of whom were skeptical. beyond diplomacy, there's new recognition of washington's military limits, a realization that force won't get america everything it wants, however strong its army. the more america leads, the greater the risk that putin can sell this to his own people as a fight between russia and the u.s. yet the white house also understands the risks of not being more assertive. it knows that not intervening could lead to the deaths of countless more ukrainian civilians, and president putin

may strike a nato country anyway, so it walks a tight rope with potentially horrifying consequences. it is enough to make anyone more humble. i'll tell you, every time i open the papers and read the news about this, it's just a gut punch of what is going on in the world. how it affects all of us in so many ways, and there doesn't appear to be a clean path to any type of peace anytime soon. >> not a clean path. i will say, though, what the united states and its nato allies have done over the past month is nothing short of remarkable. katty, though, the line in here of this op-ed that i thought was the most telling and that americans need to understand better is the line where you said that joe biden went to his european ally, not as a hoover lord but as a partner. they understood that for the first time in some time that

they had somebody who saw them as an equal, somebody who was willing to sit down and work through the process instead of telling them where everything was about to go. >> and that was actually very different from what i was hearing about the first few months of the biden administration. there was great hope after trump left that this was going to be an america europeans felt they could deal with on an equal level and the way the white house handled afghanistan, not consulting as much with allies as much as they would have liked to be consulted, of course the fiasco over the nuclear submarine, that left europeans felt that this was not a white house that was going to treat them as equals. this was different from everything i have heard. they went to them, spoke to them as equals and most importantly shared the intelligence. it was the sharing of the intelligence and the whey the white house did it, unprecedented. >> sharing of intelligence in a way the united states just doesn't do. >> really unprecedented and i think that got a lot of goodwill from europeans who had been

skeptical about the white house to the way they handled this one. >> for domestic consumption, mika, people wondering what joe biden is and is not doing, when you see what's happening with nato's involvement, you see germany stepping forward. that just would not have happened if the united states had been out in front too quickly. >> and ambassador taylor, david ignatius, a new column for the "washington post" that points back to the conversation that we had a few moments ago, watching russia's military failures is exhilarating, but putin is dangerous, and david writes in part, as we support zelenskyy, we should understand the dangers ahead. the longer the war continues, the more dangerous it will become, a desperate putin may become more likely to escalate this crisis toward a world war. the intelligence services of every rational country on the planet should consider ways to reduce putin's unchecked power

before he moves from nasty bully to mass murderer. i feel like we're on the edge of that, and while the ukrainians, the ukrainian story is incredibly inspiring and will go down in history as, you know, one of the strongest most passionate resistances we've seen in modern day. they're flat in the country, and they keep coming, and he doesn't care about boundaries, lines, war crimes versus regular war. so how do we deal with him? >> so we don't let him set all the rules. >> how? >> we don't let him push the ukrainians. the ukrainians are pushing back, just as you said, mika, and at some point he will have to understand that he's not winning on the ground. he can lob these missiles in, but he's not winning on the ground. he can't take those cities and

hold them, and he'll have to negotiate at that point, when he realizes he's not winning, we will have to then come to the table. >> everyone is thinking, what is putin trying to do? doesn't he want this to be between russia and network, and isn't he looking for any excuse to make it that is this. >> i don't think so. i think he wants ukraine. i think he will do -- i think he's looking to control ukraine, and that, as we talked about earlier, would not be in our interest, not be in nato's interest. >> he doesn't get it. doesn't it come between russia and who? >> we're going to see if putin is the pragmatist that people have thought he's been. let's put this in context, mr. ambassador. he wanted georgia, he got georgia. we did nothing. he wanted crimea, he got crimea. we did nothing. barack obama wouldn't even send defensive weapons. he got it. he wanted donbas, he got it. he wanted syria, he got it. donald trump said, oh, you want

syria, okay, i'll leave syria. we'll get out of syria. i mean, if you've gotten everything you've wanted over the past 13, 14, 15 years and the west collapses every time, is it not rational to think, oh, well, i'll get ukraine, too, because these people refuse to fight me, and then you go in, and you find out actually that not only are they willing to fight you, but they're willing to destroy your economy with unprecedented sanctions. so he's there. how does he get out. perhaps, just perhaps he still is a rational thinker, and perhaps pretty rational going in when the west showed absolutely no fortitude in standing up to him, whether it was george w. bush, barack obama, or donald trump. >> joe, he must be surprised at exactly what he's seeing now. he must be surprised that joe biden and volodymyr zelenskyy,

neither of whom he put much stock in or respected that much, he must be surprised at their determination. he must be surprised that the nato alliance standing very tough. the europeans sticking with these sanctions. these sanctions are worse or harsher than we put on any nation in the world in history. that has to have an effect, and he's running out of troops. he's not doing well on the ground. he will at some point, it will dawn on him that he's not winning on that. >> and david, to your point, at some point, understanding he's running out of troops, he's running out of time, he's running out of weapons, he's rung out of the chance to subdue ukraine, at some point, they go to their plan b, which is escalate, to deescalate. whether they use nuclear weapons or not, they do the ike

brinkmanship, or they flatten two or three towns that they know they can never control. if this is where he is, he escalates to deescalate so he can go negotiate a peace with zelenskyy that won't humiliate him in the eyes of the world. >> i think that is precisely the concern, joe, that he is on a course toward a protracted struggle that will destroy the russian army in ukraine, that will destroy the russian economy at home. he is arresting people, the numbers are now, you know, approaching 20,000, i'm told in russia. he's completely controlled their media. any liberal russian challenge is leaving or thinking about leaving. the tone in his public statements is increasingly to me that of a cornered, angry, furious at his generals, you know, he's seeking revenge. he talks about scum and

traitors. so this is somebody who, you know, who is capable of doing dangerous things. communicating clearly to him that what the limits of acceptable tolerable behavior are is the essence, i think of good leadership for the u.s. and nato. and i think biden has generally done that well. you could argue it needs to be clearer in particular in this area of tactical nuclear weapons, but i think that message has been conveyed, probably privately, in ways that are not visible to us, so i think we're entering, it's a dangerous period now because putin is responding to being obstructed in the way that a dictator does. he's furious, he's raging, and we want to be careful for ukraine's sake, for russia's sake. for the world's sake. that he doesn't do something completely destructive. >> it's a dangerous phase and there are these meetings this week in brussels that could produce some interesting turns

of events. we'll see what happens. thank you very much to the panel. still ahead, we have much more coverage on the war in ukraine. former ukrainian president petro poroshenko joins us live this morning. plus, the chairman of the judiciary committee, senate majority whip dick durbin is with us in the studio, ahead of the start of confirmation hearings for supreme court nominee, ketanji brown jackson. we'll be right back with much more continuing coverage of the war in ukraine, right here on "morning joe." of the war uinkraine, right here on "morning joe." se! you did! pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. thinkorswim® equips you with customizable tools, dedicated trade desk pros, and a passionate trader community sharing strategies right on the platform. because we take trading as seriously as you do. thinkorswim® by td ameritrade

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it is the top of the hour. the sun has come up over washington. that's a live look at the capitol, and we're here at the d.c. bureau, more developments as the russian invasion of ukraine enters brutal day 26. the mayor of the capital city of

kyiv says eight people were killed this attacks overnight. the city just imposed another curfew. it takes effect later tonight and will last for 35 hours. with the russian military depleting and having failed to capture kyiv, experts say the war is now headed toward a stalemate where the fighting and killing continues but no ground is won. experts say now is the time for western allies to rush new military aid to ukraine. ukraine is rejecting moscow's demand to surrender the strategic city of mariupol, which is just undergoing the most brutal attack. we just learned that president biden will visit poland after meeting with nato allies in belgium later this week. this is an important trip. welcome back to "morning joe," it is monday, march 21st. katty kay, and david ignatius are still with us. let's dive in. ukrainian president, volodymyr

zelenskyy is calling for a face-to-face meeting with russia's vladimir putin to end the war. he also offered an ominous prediction yesterday for what he says will happen if peace talks fail. >> we have to use any format, any chance in order to have the possibility of negotiating, the possibility of talking to putin, but if these attempts fail, that would mean that this is a third world war. >> in a two-hour video call with chinese president xi jinping on friday, president biden warned of stiff consequences if beijing were to provide material support to russia. senior administration officials say the conversation was direct and detailed, but the meeting may have also exposed a deepening divide between the two countries. china's president continues to blame the united states for the

war in ukraine saying -- using a chinese proverb, xi said the next move is up to biden, he who ties the bell to the tiger must take it off. >> david ignatius, xi is the one who invited the tiger into the house, and said we're going to have a special relationship. it's now up to xi to get the tiger out of the house because little did he know when he let the tiger in, it was radio active. not a good move with china. what have you heard over the past three or four days since the call. >> my impression talking to people in the administration is that xi is distancing himself from putin. subtly, doesn't want to appear to throw him overboard. putin, and his reckless are dangerous for xi's project. xi has this china dream, as he

puts it, to be the dominant country in the world, and putin's war, putin's behavior is not consistent with what chinese interests are. >> and by the way, david, that happens within the existing world order. >> yeah. >> xi and china since 1979, they have been building up for this moment where they dominate an existing world order that putin is trying to tear down. >> you put it exactly right. i think that's why xi is weary of putin. the question is what is xi prepared to do to help stop this war. on that, i don't think there was a clear answer. >> let's bring in the president of the council of foreign relations, richard haas, former adviser for russia and yur ray shan, angela extent, and white

house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire is here. let's talk about vladimir putin. it does appear -- let's talk about vladimir. >> she's ready. she's got this. >> at the beginning of this war, he was going to drive out zelenskyy. he knows that's not possible now. and you write that even if there are peace talks, even if they end this conflict, he's just going to go back and start trying to figure out what the new greater russia looks like. explain how even if we have peace talks and a peace settlement, this is just the beginning of a long drawn out conflict. >> putin, they want to subjugate ukraine. that's been his goal for a long time. grievances against the west. grievances about the collapse of the soviet union. of course the war hasn't gone nearly as well as he wanted it to, but if they do have peace talks and right now, the press

spokesperson says those aren't on the horizon. if they do, they'll wait by that time, and they'll go back again, and try and undermine ukraine. he is not giving this up. as long as he's in the kremlin, he wants to, you know, to eliminate really ukraine as an independent country. >> so richard haas, nato meetings coming up this week. what's on that agenda? what needs to be on that agenda considering, as clint showed us, as we've seen throughout the weekend, this war militarily is at a stalemate, putin's accelerating his attacks on civilians. i'm sure the west is accelerating its stream of weapons going into ukraine. this is a conflict that's going to be a bloodier stalemate by the day. what should nato do? >> the way you set it up has the virtue of being right. nato has to continue to get in the quantity and quality of arms that it can. it's got to look to how it strengthens itself, has to make

sure its plans are dusted off in case at some point, i doubt it, but in case at some point mr. putin would be foolish enough to move against nato, interfere with weapons getting into ukraine. they have to talk about variety contingencies. one is the idea you won't have a peace settlement. i think it's highly unlikely, instead you have an open-ended conflict, how does nato deal with that, and the other is various forms of escalation, what might be done to head it off or to respond. it's actually a full agenda and the fact that the president is going over to nato sends a really positive message, just look how far this alliance has come in the course of several years, no one doubts america's commitment to article 5, plus lastly, you've got an enormous humanitarian crisis, and i think one of the things the president wants to do is highlight americans collective support to make it as, what's the word, basically to deal with it as best you can. >> jonathan, what does the white house hope to accomplish other than getting the president, the

other nato leaders shaking their hands and getting pictures taken? >> well, there is of course obviously that part of it, that the public relations campaign. biden's predecessor threatened to storm out of brussels. the fact the president is there and is going to stand shoulder to shoulder with european leaders, administration officials tell me they think that's really important. this is going to be a trip mostly on messaging. there aren't too many deliverables, talk of more sanctions, really commitment to get more supplies and weapons across the border to ukraine. we had the president sign another $800 million in funding just a few days ago. and i do think that the addition of the stop to poland is important too. a country that is really stepped up in the response here, and absorbed about 2 million

refugees to this point per officials. there is some talk not certainly committed yet, the president may make an initial stop in poland to pay tribute to some of those refugee processing centers across the border. we heard from white house press secretary jen psaki over the weekend put cold water on the idea he might go to kyiv. an idea that was percolating among the chattering classes, but certainly would not be seen as a secure trip for the president's. secret service would have a say about that. that's what the trip is about. it's about the messaging. we're standing together, trying to show putin that much more isolated, particularly with xi jinping, not willing to condemn putin or support him as the russians would want. >> talk about the pressure putin is under at the moment. we have heard the story of russians leaving the country. we know the sanctions are starting to have an impact on the economy. is he feeling any of that pressure, do you think? >> i think he's feeling the pressure on the economic side.

i mean, obviously all of these oligarchs and people around him who have been sanctioned and then ordinary russians, they're really feeling the pinch of this, and it's going to get worse. there is economic pressure there, the head of the central bank, she wanted to resign. he wouldn't let her. it's going to be very difficult going forward. i think he obviously must be feeling some pressure from the military, too. obviously we don't have too much insight. this war really isn't going very well, and we understand that some people have already been dismissed and blamed for this war not going well. there is pressure. but unfortunately he seems to be just digging in more with the pressure and determined to grind on with this dreadful war. >> i want to ask a question of richard haas. richard, we have been having a conversation over the last hour about whether president biden's reaction to what's happening in ukraine is muscular enough, and

whether there are additional things that he can do within acceptable boundaries of risk that make sense. just curious what you think. you said in the situation room, you've seen crisis management. what's your feeling about more muscular stance from biden, less what we might do. >> i think it is pretty muscular, but it is an indirect strategy, and that's the big difference, jay w 1990, 1991, versus saddam. it stems from the fact that saddam didn't have nuclear weapons, and vladimir putin has a lot of them. so what we have is an indirect strategy, and i think at the edge put probably more arms, the airplane situation wasn't handled well. there's a little bit more we can do. but i don't think there's anything fundamental there. i think the question is what kind of messages we send to the russians about how we would

respond to attacks on nato. my hunch is, again, nato has such a clear qualitative advantage over the russian army. i don't worry particularly about that scenario as much as putin would like to turn this into an east west kind of thing. i think the real question is what you do about chemicals or what you do about continued attacks on urban centers. one parallel also from the 1990, '91 crisis is we threaten saddam in so many words with regime change if he did use chemical and nuclear weapons, and we could make it clear to putin that he would put himself in an impossible situation if that were to happen. i would simply say one side of the coin -- >> let me stop you there. that was a good part of the conversation at 6:00, what do we do to deter vladimir putin who's clearly in desperate straits right now from using chemical weapons or nuclear weapons. what's the message the white

house should send either publicly or privately to putin. >> i'm not sure he's in desperate straits. he's selling an awful lot of energy every day, and you could have two wars going on for quite a while, he has a war between ukrainian cities and minimizes the war between two armies. i would call it difficult, yes, not what he intended, but i don't think it's desperate yet joe. i would threaten now, in terms of use, that we would ratchet up our war aims. but i would be circumspect about what we could actually do. we have a whole range of options, not just military but obviously cyber. i would look at all of that. >> richard mentioned this aspect of the war, a refugee crisis hot seen since world war ii. the u.n. commissioner for refugees says 10 million ukrainians have left their homes

since the invasion started nearly a month ago. more than 3 million people have fled to other countries, most to poland. some children traveling alone. the u.n. says 90% of refugees are women and children. at one point last week, unicef says 55 children were leaving ukraine every minute. meanwhile, tens of thousands of russians are leaving their homes as well. "the new york times" talked to several young professionals who left because they're against the war. and due to the crippling sanctions leveled on the russian economy, and that's the part of the story that's a little bit harder to see, just how the russian people are filtering this information. how much they know. how much the west has been able to get information in. but they're leaving. >> they certainly see russians leaving. there are messages getting through to russians. some of the places they're not

welcome. in georgia, they have been told to leave. but you look at the refugee crisis in warsaw. you have the mayor of warsaw saying we're just -- we're just at a point now where we can't take many more refugees in. what, again, in these nato meetings, what sort of discussion do they have. how do we manage this ongoing refugee crisis? >> we have to make sure that as many countries as possible are willing to take as many refugees, but, you know, poland is obviously overburdened already. a number of them remaining. moldova, these places have too many refugees. we have to get together. it's a desperate situation. it's going to get worse and on the russians, this is the largest wave of immigrants since the revolution. 200,000 left in the first couple of weeks of the invasion. they're going to georgia and armenia, trying to come to the

west too. so they also want something different. >> i wanted to ask, you have written as knowledgeable about putin as anybody in america. curious whether you think there will be a point he's so isolated, this war is so unsuccessful that there will be pressure from below, from the next tier of leaders in the military and intelligence services that will lead to minutiae or diminution of his challenges. >> they had a better sense of what was happening before the war began, unlike the people at the very top that apparently told putin it was going to be over in 72 hours. i think there could be more pressure. i think particularly if the sanctions continue. hopefully at some point, if this war goes on, the europeans will be willing to sanction the energy sector.

as long as he can rake in profits from selling oil, the russian economy is suffering but not as much as it could have. slowly that could grind and put pressure on him. you know, it's hard to see how this ends at the moment this terms of the people in the kremlin. but i think most people believe that at some point there will be more of a push for change. >> jonathan lemire. obviously there's a refugee crisis of the first order in europe, especially in poland. what can the president do, what can the president offer when he goes over this week? >> i think as just mentioned, something he highlights here, thanks to those countries that have welcomed refugees in, and suggesting doors could be open to the united states for some of the refugees as well. the temporary protected status, they're looking to change that to allow more refugees in. i want to piggy back on what richard said a minute ago, officials i talked to over the weekend agree. they think the likelihood of russia escalating this war to

nato countries has diminished because of the losses the russian military has taken, that can they rule out an errant missile streaking across the border and landing in poland as it almost did a few weeks ago. they can't, and they would have to respond to that, but they don't think russia would target any of those countries. they believe the war is shifting into a new phase where russians are, as they try to replenish some of their troops, are just going to be content for the long range bombardments right now. flattening the cities. trying to empty them out. if they are able to make an advance, there will be less resistance. u.s. officials don't believe there will be an ability to hold territory, even cities they have captured now, they don't hold. ukrainians are protesting nearly every day. as much as this week overseas is going to be about coordinating with the allies, the presidential is not waiting, he has a secure call with the leaders of france, germany, italy, and uk. the white house has advised

that. so they're going to be ramping up the pressure on putin to coordinate their response. >> it's a moment by moment crisis, and this has many fronts whether it's the actual december -- december mags of cities in ukraine. you have people leaving in droves. you have young people who are exposed to what's happening in the west and the news from the west, perhaps through their phones. i'm not sure this they have been completely cut off from that. then you have the people who have for decades listened to russian propaganda on russian news stations who may have seen the small protests, you know, behind the scenes of the producer who put the sign out there. there may be cracks there. if there is a revulsion to what putin is doing, does it matter since it's an autocracy? >> at the moment, it's a very

repressive state. it's much more repressive in the last year. it's difficult to protest. you get arrested for 15 years. it's still the urban people mainly, the educated people. if you look at what people in the provinces are saying and doing, they believe everything they see, and they think the u.s. is responsible for this, and, you know, that putin's popularity rate has gone up since the beginning of the war, if you can believe the statistics, you know, the polling numbers. but even the independent lavada says that. so i think we shouldn't kid ourselves that's there's going to be a mass revolt anytime soon. >> is one of the reason that's happening is for older russians they too like putin mourned the collapse of the soviet union, and see ukraine see kyiv, odesa as historic capitals in ports of greater russia. >> the older generation has

never accepted ukraine is a different country. the younger people, 18 to 30-year-olds do accept it's separate country, and they're quite relaxed about it. putin is appealing to them, we're a great power. and for some reason that still resonates with them, and that's why he's as popular as he is. >> it's also why because of the overlap with the countries that you have russians killing people who are speaking russian in ukraine. russian people. >> and why some people inside of russia see them as traitors. >> it's a strange dynamic. >> the green revolution in iran in '09, you had half the country, the younger educated class of the country actually wanting to push the molas out, and you had the older more rural parts of iran wanting to keep them in. >> it's just, your heart bleeds for the russians, for the ukrainians, people are seeing so much destruction.

i hate to see all the progressive young russians leaving the cities, fleeing russia, leaving behind people who are either cowed or embrace these increasingly messianic ideas of president putin. >> you think of the rally we saw over the weekend, and i think the reaction from here is this is north korea, and these people must have been shipped in waving flags, and it's also possible they're there because they do support putin standing there and acting the way he is. >> some of them were shipped in. we don't know what the balance is. >> final thought on what we're discussing about in russia there is split between younger and older russians, and many older russians still mourn the passing of the old soviet union. >> they do. and, you know, vladimir putin controls the information space, and that obviously has had a big impact, the older people aren't on social media to the extent

you can still use it there. but at the end of the day, he's destroying, joe, two different countries differently. he's destroying russia what you have been talking about, really destroying the economic sanctions, the most talented young russians are voting with their feet. russia has become and will remain a pariah state, literally for decades to come short of regime change, and he's obviously physically destroying ukraine and a quarter of the people have been rendered homeless. that will be vladimir putin's legacy, essentially he has brought down two countries in the center of europe. >> angela extent, richard haas, and jonathan lemire, thank you very much for being on this morning, we appreciate it. and still ahead on "morning joe," "the new york times" editorial board says america has a free speech problem. up next, an important conversation about cancel culture, social silencing, and political intolerance in america today. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. day. you're watching "morning joe."

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the enlargement of liberty for individual human beings must be the supreme goal and the abiding practice of any western society. the first element of its individual liberty is the freedom of speech. the right to express and communicate ideas, to set one's self apart from field and forest. each time a man stands up for an ideal or acts to improve the lot of others or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and dairy, those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.

>> 28 past the hour. then senator robert kennedy discussing the importance of free speech during a trip to south afric in 1966. almost 60 years later, "the new york times" editorial board is warning that the right to free speech in america still faces a serious threat. in a new piece, the board writes in part, quote, for all the tolerance and enlightenment that modern society claims, americans are losing hold of a fundamental right as citizens of a free country. the right to speak their minds and voice their opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned. how has this happened? in large part it's because the political left and the right are caught in a destructive loop of condemnation and recrimination around cancel culture. wow, this is a big conversation to have.

joining us now to discuss even further, founder of the conservative web site, the bull work charlie psychs, and reverend al sharpton, and chief executive of pen america, a free speech organization. suzanne nossel, the author of "dare to speak defending free speech for all", and thank you all for joining us this morning. >> reverend al, we have talked about it for some time, latté liberals, the woke culture disconnected from large segments of the democratic majority. talk about this time this past weekend, and ill liberalism that many see on the right and on the left. >> i've found that a fascinating piece because i think on one hand, to say we should speak out

and go after people that say my oj nis or racist or bigoted things is one thing, but we have gotten to the point now where if you even disagree with what is considered trendy or what is considered right by either the far right or the far left, all of a sudden you're cancelled, and that gets very close to banning free speech and free expression. if you cannot have debate, even in the civil rights community or the women's rights community or political circles, it's my way or your way, we are inhibiting freedom, and i think it's gone too far on the fringe sides of both the right and the left. >> suzanne, let me just -- i'll go ahead and give an example of this that i don't think many people on tv have. but you sit around the dinner table, even with academics, and they will talk about the swimmer

at penn, and the trans swimmer at penn, and they'll start saying, okay, well, is that really, is that fair to young girls that grew up swimming. and i said, why don't you have this discussion in your classroomings. -- classrooms. and we couldn't have the discussion on television. put that aside for another day. somebody wants to have that discussion. talk about how there are stories like this, where you can only express one side of the conversation or be cancelled by polite society. >> it's a great example of a discussion that's really hard to have right now, and that's partly because, look, transgender people are only becoming more accepted, more established, more recognized in society. they have, you know, steep hills to climb, face enormous discrimination, and so, you know, their notion is any questioning of their identity

and their participation is sort of an affront of their right to exist, and at some level you can understand that. on the other hand, you know, i think many people feel as you do, it's a tough issue. there are equities on both sides, there's no perfect solution, and we ought to be able to talk about it. and, so you know, where i think we really lose our way is the vitriol, and you see this in response to the "times" piece. some of the aspects may not have been phrased perfectly. i think the way they used the term right is ambiguous, right as the government and the first amendment or right in a social sense, but people went after that, and we lost threat of being able engage with what is a real struggle as their numbers this their survey illustrate. >> and you'll have people on both sides getting very angry i'm sure at this segment saying, oh, you're preaching this moral equivalency where there's not one. but we can go left, right, left,

charlie. we could look at college campuses, which it's very funny when people act as if this has just happened. i remember being in law psychological writing to my teacher's left wing views. i remember being an undergrad, understanding if i said something conservative in the classroom at university of alabama my professors would roll their eyes, and so this isn't anything new, but we also see it, though, on the right. with like why don't they have book burnings in certain states. it's insanity, and there's a ill liberalism on the right, as there is on the left. let's talk about that. >> you don't have to say they are morally equivalent or the same thing but the reality is that both sides are responsible. you have a two front war against liberal democracy and free speech. and i think it's important to recognize that, and that this has been going on a very long time. look, i mean, the "times" piece

overstated the problem saying we have a fundamental right not to be shunned but under stated the problem because it's not always about just being shunned. it's also about losing jobs, losing contracts, people shouted down on university campuses. the real fear in consensus of tolerance and free speech is thinner than we imagined it was. and that if both the left and the right basically have decided no, we're not that interested in it, we're going to shut down the people that we in fact disagree with. then we have a challenge. i think at this particular moment, we're seeing this sort of worldwide confrontation between liberal democracy and autocracy, this is a good debate for us to have at this particular point. >> it's a great debate, and i love the fact that a column on free speech, so much free speech. i see that as something healthy, people shouldn't be fragile and

frail. we should have this talk. here are a couple of insane examples that happened five, six, seven, eight years ago, condi rice was going to speak, i think, at rutgers, and they had petitions, drove her out from speaking. and then christine lagarde, driven out from speaking at a commencement address. but that insanity continues on college campuses especially, and you sit back and i wonder who's in charge there. who's allowing students to determine who's going to be speaking at commencement speakers, when they're cancelling, christine lagarde, and condi rice. >> the notion of safe spaces has become actually we cannot criticize anything or have an open discussion about anything. it's gone beyond what it was originally conceived.

>> that sound dangerous. >> you want to have children, kids, college exposed to different points of view. the problem is as we are living in a society that is changing quite rapidly, this demands nuanced conversation and social media is a nuance-free zone. >> we're not going to ask about your children. and i'm not going to talk about my children, but what i have heard from their friends and what we've heard from kids on college campuses are that they're afraid to talk in class. it's not just one of them. you get five kids around a table that go to prestigious universities and they will tell you they can't raise their hand in class and say anything controversial, because if they do, they'll get attacked. it will go up on social media, and their social life at that campus will be destroyed. >> and it becomes a kind of mob rule on social media, right,

it's not actually a discussion about different point of views because social media doesn't allow for that. i wanted to ask reverend al. the critics are saying if you criticize the notion of cancel culture, if you say this is a real problem, you're talking about a power transfer, not about freedom of speech. this is about the majorities being afraid of sharing power. and that that's -- and that's where the kind of liberal anxiety and it's, you know, white liberal anxiety about cancel culture comes from, do you think there's something to that or is there a distinction to be made between free speech and power sharing? >> i think it definitely is a distinction that should be made. freedom of speech means that we have an exchange of ideas, we can debate it out. and a lot of it comes down to whether you sincerely believe

what you believe and say you believe, so you therefore are secure enough to debate it. when you have to cancel people from even having the discussion or the debate because they don't agree with you, my first thing is to suspect maybe you are not that firm in what you're saying. let me use for example, joe talked about condoleezza rice being cancelled from appearing at a campus. i disagreed with most of what condoleezza rice did as secretary of state but i had her on "politics nation," i'm secure in what i believe, i'm prepared to debate and talk to her about what she believes. if i got to shut her up and shut her down in order to win my argument, do i really believe in my argument? >> yeah, it's a great point. and suzanne, i want to use what i consider to be a pretty extreme example of this, and since this is a "new york times" article and i'm so glad the "times" did this, but it was

"the new york times," i guess, a couple of summers ago that fired their opinion page editor because he printed a united states senator's op-ed piece. now, i was offended by the senator's op-ed piece, 55, 56% of americans supported his position. he was a united states senator, and yet the "times" fired him because people inside the newsroom were offended. it struck me as concerning. i'm curious your thoughts about this sort of culture inside not just the "times" newsroom but many newsrooms. >> look, i think there is a great fear of where the red lines lie, and even though in positions of authority, the publisher, initially was willing to stand by the editorial team that made this decision, you know, the editorial hadn't been read by the senior most person,

and maybe that was a problem, but to send the message that, you know, even an error can lead to firing and dismissal, i think, you know, put fear in the hearts of editors everywhere, that one mistake, misjudgment might be career ending, and i think if we want our editors and publishers to take risks to put forward alternative perspectives to offer a breadth of views, that's a dangerous way to operate. you know, i think we can absolutely debate whether that was a sound editorial decision, but that kind of swift dismissal leaves a chilling effect, and that's what i worry about. i also worry about a rising generation that has become unmoored from the idea of free speech, believes it's a smoke screen for hatred, those purportedly defended are hypocritical. when we lose young people when it comes to the bedrock of free speech, i think the

underpinnings of democracy get undercut. >> charlie, that is a concern, such a concern, that i will say children, because i'm such an old guy now, children that i see going off to college, young adults that i see in college, they can't say what they want to say in college, and there are other young students in college who see as suzanne said, who see speech, free speech, as an affront for their right to live in this safe zone. it's unperson. it's just an un-american thought. we in our generation, we were allowed to say really stupid things in classroom. everybody was. not just white guys, everybody sitting around were free to say stupid things in class. >> or not stupid things, exchange ideas. >> no, let me say stupid things in class, be corrected, learn

from the mistakes that we made, see our blind spots, and hopefully become better people and more critical thinkers that i'm so fearful that we're going to raise a generation of students that can't be critical thinkers because their world view is never challenged because it might offend their sensibilities. >> charlie is frozen. >> you know what, he's uncomfortable with what you said and he's decided to leave. >> i've just been cancelled by charlie. >> i think we're already there. this notion somehow that you have a right not to be offended has become deeply ingrained. if people you do not want to encounter ideas that make them uncomfortable, go to a monastery, not a university. but one of the things that's troubling is watching what's happening in even some of the elite law schools where you have students at yale law school shouting down a speaker, which

makes you wonder what kind of lawyers are they going to be, what kind of judges are they going to be, what's going to happen when they're in the courtroom, and they hear somebody challenging their arguments. again, this culture has become deeply ingrained. i mean, i also think we ought to acknowledge that there are -- there should be some red lines. the question is where they are applied. there are some people, i mean, there's no fundamental right to spread disinformation or lies about, you know, about science or about a number of other things or engage in bigoted speech, but it is that intolerance which demands, which demands a conformity that i think is the most troubling, and again, what worries me is watching both the right and the left engaging in this kind of behavior is that we used to have a consensus or at least i thought we had a consensus, but i think that consensus is much

more fragile than we ever imagined. i'm trying to imagine which political leader could give the speech that robert f. kennedy said. who will be willing to say that. >> charlie sooiks, reverend al, we'll see you later in the show when we speak with senator dick dur win. and -- durbin. we'll dig into the unfolding humanitarian crisis, and its disproportionate impact on women in particular. "morning joe" is back in a moment. particular. "morning joe" is back in a moment this is the new world of work. each day looks different than the last. but whatever work becomes, the world works with servicenow.

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>> reporter: from train stations to border crossings, the refugee crisis growing more dire. 3 million people have fled ukraine. >> they are fearing fir their lives, and we have to make sure we do the right thing. >> reporter: facing pressure at home, president biden giving relief. >> we're going to welcome them with open arms. >> you should go because joe biden told that you will be able to reach me. and she just believed me. >> reporter: thankfully natalia's mom made it to poland, now she's alone. natalia a green card holder says a tourism visa was denied, something the u.s. government warns will happen for people who can't prove they'll leave. >> i can't understand why not, why my mom couldn't come and live with me just three, four months. i just want to hug her and say i love you, everything will be okay. >> reporter: natalia doubts the u.s. refugee program will be any

faster. under former president donald trump, refugee admissions were cut to 15,000 in 2020. president biden raised that number to 62,500. >> the trump administration just eviscerated the whole infrastructure, brought the numbers of refugees admitted down to almost nothing, and we have to basically start from scratch. >> reporter: experts say the thinned down system can't handle another crisis after f highly criticized pullout last year. >> the united states has its hands full with the afghan evacuation. u.s. resettlement agencies are completely overstretched. >> her lawyer thinks it could take five years to get her mother here as a refugee. >> when you hear it could take years to get your mother here legally, what goes through your mind. >> i start crying because i was asking myself will my mom still be alive until this time or not. >> as we just saw there, women,

children and disabled refugees are facing an outsized danger. stemming from the war in ukraine. and that is the focus of a new piece entitled "the face of ukraine's refugee crisis is a woman's, the world can't let her down" joining us the authors of the piece, the cohost of "all in together" a nonpartisan political organization and michelle nunn, the ceo of care usa, an organization which works around the globe to save lives, defeat poverty and achieve social justice. care aims to assist 4 million refugees in western ukraine and border crossings and that's good because there will be 4 million plus refugees. we need that help. lauren, i'll start with you, the piece is great, and it is a woman's space. women are really -- it's women who are taking the children of the lines and the men go back

and fight. some women are going back to fight, so women are the face of this from every level! right, and that makes it incredible. the u.n. is estimating something like nine of ten refugees from the uk are women and children, and that is a unique set of challenges for the european response, for the american response. in particular there's concerns growing around human traffic, the well intentioned europeans showing up at train stations and offering rides to people means that that also opens the door to traffickers to target unaccompanied minors, and folks that are really vulnerable, and looking for help are already seeing some of that happening, and a number that i thought was unbelievable, something like 80,000 ukrainian women are expected to give birth in the next few months. these are women in transit, that means they're at elevated risk of maternal mortality, child mortality. the humanitarian response has to take into account just how many women and children are displaced. >> and michelle, tell us what care can do and is doing, and

also i just think about the daunting task of trying to organize these people and address all their needs and keep them safe. >> yeah, it is an unprecedented moment in terms of the scale and pace of this crisis, and there is so much that needs to be done, and we really do have to keep in mind the unique nature of the demographics that lauren so well articulated. care is, for instance, has conducted a rapid gender assessment to ensure that we understand what the unique needs are, that we understand that, for instance, in this population, 22% of the population of yan is over 65. that compares to 2% of the afghanistan population that is over 65. so you have not only women, but also senior women who are making their way across the border. and again, it's not just the 3 1/2 million people that have crossed the lines of ukraine. it is also the almost

6.5 million people that are displaced within ukraine who are seeking shelter. many of the most vulnerable, who may not have had the means to get across the lines have still now the need to move to find safety, shelter, security, again, increased risk of gbb. we know that in any instances, for instance in venezuela, 90% of the women that are fleeing. over 6 million people in venezuela alone as an example have experienced some form of gender based violence. care is addressing that with cash assistance through partners. psycho social support and then the direct hygiene kits that include menstrual pads, for instance, and most importantly right now, food and water and shelter. >> i was speaking to somebody in poland this weekend who says everybody is helping, one woman and the woman's daughter, they're very concerned about the children and the trauma on the children. and they don't know how to make them feel at home because the

children are longing to get back. they're not going to poland thinking they're going to build a new life there. they want to get back as soon as possible. what can we do for the children? >> i spoke to senior officials at usa i.d. about that topic and how difficult it is to provide services. this is a long-term problem, and the reality is that many of these folks are never going back. or it will be years, and so part of this is going to be the question of european infrastructure, the ability of the european government in each of these countries, especially places like poland to respond to offer services over the long-term. they're going to need help from us and the whole community. >> and you wanted to engage, michelle. >> you know this better than anyone. we're starting to see that there are ripple effects of this scale of humanitarian crisis around the world. a story this weekend about inflating food prices around the world. can you speak to that and where else you see the sort of impact around the world of this scale of crisis. >> yeah, it is incredible to

conceive of the ripple impact of this. if you think about this is added 10 million to 84 million people who are already displaced and you think about a hunger crisis that already impacted over 800 million people around the world, and that has been growing, and you think that a third of the wheat, barley and corn that is produced in the world is coming from ukraine and russia. we really have to think about this as a global humanitarian crisis, and we need to not only respond in the region and support those regions who are as katie said taking on so much responsibility, but we also need to think about how we are ensuring that those in afghanistan meet syria and yemen are also getting the support they need. >> what a massive undertaking. lauren leader and michelle nunn, thank you both. find their articles at knowyourvalue.com. we really appreciate you all taking the time. up next we're going to go live to ukraine for the latest on the city of mariupol.

russian forces have it surrounded but ukrainian fighters are refusing to surrender. plus, ukraine's president is calling on the country's farmers not to fight or flee but to keep working amid the war. more on their efforts ahead on "morning joe." r efforts ahead on "morning joe." [copy machine printing] ♪ ♪ who would've thought printing... could lead to growing trees. ♪ could lead to when you're driving a lincoln, stress seems to evaporate into thin air. which leaves us to wonder, where does it go?

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the sun has come up here in washington, d.c. welcome back to "morning joe." it's monday, march 21st. katty kay is still with us. we're going to speak with former ukrainian president petro poroshenko in just a moment, but first, the very latest developments from on the ground. a curfew takes effect in kyiv tonight after another round of attacks overnight. the mayor says eight people were killed. with the russian military running out of manpower and weapons, and having failed to

drive volodymyr zelenskyy from power, experts say the war is now headed toward a bloody stalemate where more civilians and soldiers will lose their lives. neither side advances. there are calls for the west to take advantage of this window of opportunity and set up its military support for ukraine. joining us now from kyiv, nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. good morning. >> reporter: good morning. there was another russian attack in the center of kyiv overnight. this one hit a shopping center. damaged surrounding buildings. as you mentioned, at least eight people were killed in that strike, although there were others who were injured so the death toll could go up. in response, the mayor here is imposing yet another of these blanket curfews, and it will start from 8:00 tonight, and last for 35 hours. people are told to stay inside,

to only go out if they're going to a bomb shelter as the expectation is there could be more attacks in kyiv and of course, in that besieged city, mariupol. russia offered ukraine a bully's ultimatum, give in now or be destroyed. the russian defense ministry said ukraine had until this morning to surrender the port city of mariupol, even though it's russia that has been bombing shelters, including a theater marked children where hundreds still remain unaccounted for. and then bombing an art school where hundreds more were hiding. president zelenskyy didn't wait for the day to end to give an answer. no. no surrender, describing what's happening in mariupol as a war crime. nationwide, russia's military advance has largely stalled facing tough resistance. but russia is still attacking civilian locations. including overnight, a shopping mall in kyiv. so it's safer to stay

underground now in the capital. a few miles from the mall is this special shelter, for foreign babies born to ukrainian surrogates. sharing a crib, these two are the newest arrivals. born just a few days ago. there are 18 babies here. their biological parents unable to collect them because of the war. until then, the war babies are in caring hands. the shelter is clean and fresh smelling, well stocked, and with loving nurses like antonia. we are giving them lots of love and taking care of their need, she says. each baby has been given a temporary name to make it easier for the staff and a number that corresponds to each baby's bottle. >> the staff, you're here 24/7 sleeping in this shelter, not leaving the babies alone. . yes, we are with the kids 24/7, we don't have much time for anything else, but we're used to it, she says, as a surrogate

parent myself, i can imagine the stress and anxiety the biological parents feel separated from their newborns they have never met. trapped down here and not knowing what tomorrow will bring. >> and there are more children coming, some kids are getting collected, but were pregnant carriers, pregnant women are giving birth, so there's more on the way. yes, others who were pregnant drop off new babies, she says. >> what do you need right now? what would help you, the situation, these children? we ask to stop the war, antonia says, we need help for this nightmare to end. antonia told me the nurses protect the babies, and the staff believe that these little angels protect them too. extraordinarily some parents have been coming here to kyiv to collect their babies. others have been making

alternative arrangements, hiring ukrainians to bring them to the border, to bring them to poland. but others are still waiting to be collected in that shelter and in good hands for now. >> richard, extraordinary reporting, and as always, i am curious. we see behind you, we see cars going. we see people walking the streets, can you give us sort of a perspective on the ground. what is it like for residents of kyiv as far as getting food supplies, getting fuel, having shelter, safe shelter to sleep in at night? . >> translator: things have changed in an extraordinary way over the last several days. when i first came, i have been in ukraine now for a couple of months, and i first came to kyiv

after a week when the war began, so three weeks now. when we first arrived here, the city was incredibly nervous, the soldiers on the check points thought the russians would be entering any minute. when we and others approached them, they raised their weapons, checked us, patted us down. they were very concerned, and there were fears that this city was going to be imminently taken over by russian forces. now we're on the fourth week of this conflict, the russian troops are still stalled on the outskirts, and all that they have been able to do or all that they are doing is bombing the outskirts, even though they haven't been able to penetrate them, and then launching the occasional strike into the center of kyiv like we saw overnight at that shopping center, killing at least eight people. the mood has changed significantly. people are able to, i don't want to say tolerate, but they are able to continue to survive here

in kyiv with this level of violence. more people are coming out. yesterday was sunday. there were families out walking their dogs, taking their children out for some fresh air. there's quite a bit of traffic, as you can see behind me right now. most shops are open, but the shops that are open have plenty of supplies. there's running water here. there's electricity. so it is a city that has been found a way to keep going even though it is not been completely surrounded but even though russian troops are amassed in large numbers pretty much on the city's doorstep to the north of kyiv. >> nbc's richard engel, thank you so much for your reporting. and joining us now, the former president of ukraine, petro poroshenko. thank you very much for joining us, sir. russia says give in or be destroyed. i know ukraine and zelenskyy,

president zelenskyy says no, but is there any middle ground to try and stop this brutality that is happening in ukraine? >> the only way now to stop the brutality in ukraine is to stop putin. this is crazy maniac who come here to kill ukrainians just because he refused us the right to exist. can you imagine for these 26 days already, they launch more than 50% of the modern russian missile, including this night because this is the zone of responsibility of my battalion. i don't give you the exact coordinate, but this is right in the eyes of the eyewitnesss, and the attack on the civilians

throughout ukraine starting from mariupol, kharkiv, sumy, and killing with bucha, which is completely erased from the existence. there is no anymore houses. there is only people and defenders who come there. and with this situation, definitely, i just want to make a statement, ukraine is never give up. kyiv is never give up. i'm here from the first moment of war. i'm not leaving kyiv. same look all my team. the same all the men who can't keep the weapons in the hands. definitely, can you imagine that more than 25% of ukrainian is internally distressed person or refugees. 25%, every fourth person. this is in the 21st century in

the center of europe, and this is responsibility of putin. we have thousand of victim civilian population killed. we have more than 100 children killed, innocent children. and putin just think that he can keep situation going on. he refuse from negotiation. at the same time, more than 15,000, this is their general data, more than 15,000 russian soldiers left forever in ukraine. more than 2,000 russian tank and personnel carrier left forever in ukraine, but ukrainian people demonstrate the miracle of unity. and ukrainians surprise the world, and we fight here. not only for our soil, but for the west. and my question, please help us to save you.

this is very simple. and it is impossible to discuss days and weeks how to supply weapons in ukraine, soldier need weapons now. this hour. not in one hour. and with this, i'm just return back from kyiv region. we tried to keep putin and russian troops 25, 30 kilometers from kyiv for not reaching kyiv civilian object by artillery, and this is the five major step. this is the road to peace. and step number one is definitely to introduce the new friend as a plan for supply to ukraine from ammunition. and this is the version of 2022. point number two, this is to close the sky, not by major

missiles. we have a best pilot but please give us everything from the drone and finishing with the antiaircraft missile. because we cannot keep the airspace if the nuclear power station of civilian object to the russian who bombing whole ukraine and territory. point number three. this is the situation for the supply for second west front, and second west front means everything but soldiers. we need more sanctions. we need embargo for the whole russian trade because please stop financing russia for killing ukrainians. this is impossible. we need embargo on oil and gas of russia. this is definitely need to be introduced now. stop financing putin. stop financing killer, and point number four, this is the new

marshall plan, let it be biden plan to demonstrate his leadership, and extremely actual now because on the 24th of march, this week, we will have a g7 summit, we will have a european union summit and we will have a nato summit, and let it be biden, and johnson, and the finish is a european union membership perspective, candidate status for ukraine. >> mr. president, you've been speaking about the awful situation in mariupol, the attacks that continue on civilians throughout the country, is there anything that you would be prepared to give russia in order to stop the killing at this stage in the war? >> i think principal of the world order for which we are fighting here in ukraine, and

principle one is that one country cannot change the border by another country by force because this is an extremely dangerous precedent. and principle number two one country cannot allow the dictator to make right on the future. nato membership or any future for ukrainian is just question of ukrainian people, and members of the european union. for example, tomorrow, today putin wants ukrainian crimea on donbas, tomorrow he will want the island from sweden or day after tomorrow, they will want alaska from united states because he think that alaska belongs to russia. let's not give any precedent to the mad dictator putin because

if putin grab ukraine, he will not stop. putin goes as far as we allow them to go, and this is not a question of full compromise. we, together, must stop putin here in ukraine and ukrainian people are ready for that. again, please help us to stop putin here. this is the question for the whole europe, for the global security in the world. >> thank you so much. former president of ukraine, petro poroshenko, we greatly appreciate you being with us. let's bring in nbc news senior international correspondent, keir simmons, what can you tell us about the status of peace talks between russia and ukraine right now? >> well joe, i think when you start to talk about peace talks, cease fire talks, you get into the challenges of the situation and how difficult it is going to be for all sides to extricate

themselves from the picture now. those talks that were happening in belarus, i understand are happening virtually and they have reached some kind of understanding like demilitarization. i think the really big challenge is going to be territory. whether russia is allowed to keep donbas, the wider donbas even, crimea, clearly ukraine having gone through so much, you can imagine how the ukrainian people, aside from the ukrainian leadership are going to be less prepared to agree to that. and you know, joe, i have been talking to president erdogan's spokesperson, attempt to go reach some type of agreement. president erdogan had a president with president putin last week, and the spokesperson

was on the call, and he was talking about these challenges and trying to talk about how despite everything that's happening right now, those talks need to have a view to how to resolve, not just a conflict on the ground but the wider challenge, the wider issues and looking ahead for decades, just think about how incredibly difficult that is to do, and he told me that while president zelenskyy is prepared to meet, he thinks will needs to be a meeting between president zelenskyy and president putin. while president zelenskyy is prepared to meet, president putin is not currently prepared to meet because he thinks the two sides aren't close enough yet. >> we have to understand a new security architecture at the end of this war, what shape will it take, what will be the parameters, the guarantees of the architecture. it will be extremely significant in terms of determining, you know, the next few decades in this part of the world but also

in terms of relations between russia, nato and the western block in general. >> it sounds like you're suggesting a new security architecture that includes a working relationship with the russians. frankly, a level of trust with president putin that simply isn't there. >> for some leaders that is true. that's why there must be a trust channel. if everybody burns bridges with russia, who's going to talk to them. there has to be some actors that they trust. it cannot be a one way street, new for security architecture, you know, someone has to play that role, and we are trying our best in that regard. >> i think, joe, one of the terrible truths of this is that once a conflict starts, it is a lot more difficult to get back from it. and of course everyone's

position changes, and for the turks to be thinking about what the future looks like, it is really really challenging when so many ukrainians are trying to worry about what tomorrow looks like. >> i thought one of the interesting things mr. said yesterday is vladimir putin is not going to negotiate from a position of weakness, and right now he understands he is not in a position of strength, so it sound like turkey, like many other military analysts believe that we may see russia escalate to deescalate as they like to say so we can be in a stronger position at the negotiating table. >> yeah, i've been listening to the conversations you guys, your fascinating conversations you guys have been having on the show this morning, and i would add this, i think one of the points that you guys have been making that we shouldn't get, you know, kind of too

enthusiastic about how things are developing on the ground i think is very important. i think we have to be careful about what i would call western wishful thinking not just about what's happening on the ground, but also the position of president putin, and i would put it like this, joe, president putin from everything he says, and he says it in speech after speech, and i have been there for a month in moscow. from everything he says, he is trying to prepare the russian people for a long, hard slog. and not just militarily potentially, but economically certainly. he is framing this as an opportunity for russia to reposition itself to have fewer ties with the west, there are many many russians who are celebrating, ordinary russians who are celebrating the fate of the oligarchs, as president putin said in his speech, just last week. those guys, they can eat oysters and foie gras in europe. we are russians, we will stand for ourselves. this culture in russia of

survival of over coming the odds, president putin is trying to tap into that, and we have to understand that president putin is not just seeing this as a battle in ukraine but a long-term fight with the west, which he has been preparing for for a long time, in which, as far as he is concerned, he thinks is worth pursuing over a sustained period. >> keir, one final thing if you can underline for us your time in russia. we have been also discussing how older russians like putin more in the passing of the soviet union see ukraine as a part of greater russia. could you explain how you saw that in russia, and how that actually gives vladimir putin a little more running room? >> yeah, there is that -- there are those russians who mourn the end of the soviet union. i think president putin mourns the end of a soviet empire, be

it soviet union or the czars, he looks that far back into history, and uses history as an explanation for his behavior. so i do think that's -- i think one of the crucial things as we talk about this, guys, is that it's not just president putin. it is all the russians. it is that tight group around him, all of whom are in their late 60s, early 70s in the kremlin. we need to understand what the west is facing here. >> nbc's keir simmons, thank you very much for your analysis and reporting this morning, and still ahead on "morning joe," we go over to the big board for a look at russia's latest troop movements in ukraine and on the maps. plus later today, senator dick durbin will gavel in the hearing for judge ketanji brown jackson's nomination to the supreme court. but first, he'll be our guest right here on "morning joe." we'll be right back with continuing coverage. we'll be right back with continuing coverage.

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let's go to national security analyst, clint watts at the big board. which cities are you watching today, and what has evolved over the weekend that people should know about? >> mika, it seems like russia has gone to phase two of their invasion. they have taken places and now trying to secure them, and create attrition over time. the bad news, strikes in lviv this week and down here in mykolaiv using cruise missiles, and hyper sonic missiles, which are difficult, move at incredible speeds. and they have killed several batches of ukrainian soldiers and civilians in different locations. separately, there's three things to watch. here in kyiv, last week i would have thought they would be trying to encircle, but they

have been stuck in many places here, meeting stiff resistance, and instead, seeing an encirclement, starting to see defensive positions. the belief is they're going to bring artillery in closer to range so they can hit key targets in key center. at this point they're firing long race missiles in. this access here, this armory column has been stopped again. their rear supply lines have been hit. they can't get fuel in, and so this has really caused a stalemate. you're seeing them push artillery so they can do sustained and direct fires. separately, the east is the place to watch. last week we talked about the intense battles around kharkiv, the counter offensives of the ukrainian military, but they have tried to advance to a place called isiom, a point by which the east in donbas could be connected with this corridor, and the ukrainians are doing

counter offensive, limited counter offensives, the russians taking sustained casualties. and armored vehicles. the place to watch in the east. separately, we have to move to the south. we started talking about the extreme devastation in mariupol. the russians are just increasingly moving very small increments, trying to surround that city. this is an awful situation, with essentially trains coming in, moving people into russia. two things to watch here, and really the big one is mykolaiv. mykolaiv is what they need, the russians need to take here. the ukrainian military continues to stop in mykolaiv, and if they can hold, it would make it very difficult for the russians to go to odesa. the war is having devastating consequences not just in ukraine and russia but across europe and africa as well. we'll take a look at how food supplies are being impacted. that's next on "morning joe." i. that's next on "morning joe.

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ukraine is known as the breadbasket of europe and the russian invasion will have consequences that could impact global food supplies. nbc's jacob soboroff has a look at how some farmers are fighting on their own front lines. >> reporter: as soon as we got outside lviv city center, the landscape looked familiar, like the american heart land, but there was one key difference. >> you see check points like this everywhere you go in this country, and if you thought people might feel more relaxed or comfortable in a rural community, you're wrong. all we got around here is farms, everywhere you look. not far away we were greeted by family farm owner, zinovi, and his daughter maria, their 21,000

acres farm is considered medium sized for ukraine. >> ten days ago, ukrainian president zelenskyy encouraged farmers not to flee. to carry on with their work amid the war. saying it's about our victory. >> do you consider the men who drive the trucks like this as important as soldiers who fight on the front lines? >> reporter: that's true zinovi says, this is our battlefield, we have to make sure our country and other country haves something to eat. ukraine owes its agricultural productivity to its soil, and it has a name of its own. >> i have never heard the term before. this is very nutritious soil, he says, it's what makes ukraine the world's largest exporter of sunflower oil, and among the top ten exporters of grain and corn. all of a sudden, what seems like a sanctuary from the war invaded by a sound in the sky.

>> keep looking, listen. is that fighter jets? it's most likely a military plane, he tells me, unsure if it's ukrainian or russian. when you hear a plane like that, what do you think? i'm anxious, he says, but we have to do our work. back on the farm in front of a pile of soybeans they plan to export to europe, it's clear why. russia is already hitting warehouses that are storage for food in kyiv. we've already seen it. could something like this be a target as well? we can expect anything from these people, he says. you have a 3-year-old son. it's his grandchild. >> yes. >> what will you tell your son about the war? i just pray to god for my son not to see the explosion, not to see what the war looks like, maria says. her father wanted to say

something too. i want my grandchild when he grows up to be proud of how we handled the situation, that we stayed here and worked really hard for the victory. >> that was nbc's jacob soboroff reporting. and senator majority whip dick durbin is standing by and joins us as confirmation hearings get underway for president biden's supreme court pick. "morning joe" is coming right back. urt pick "morning joe" is coming right back does daily stress leave you feeling out of sync? new dove men stress-relief body wash... with a plant-based adaptogen, helps alleviate stress on skin. so you can get back in sync. new dove men. a restorative shower for body and mind. with more standard safety features than any vehicle on the road, the 2022 chrysler pacifica is an iihs top safety pick+. to help protect kids and the world they'll inherit.

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one person is in custody after a deadly shooting outside a car show in arkansas on saturday. at least one person has died, 28 others, including children were injured when the gunfight broke out. it happened in a small town south of little rock with a population of about 5,000 people. officials with the arkansas state police called it the

largest mass shooting incident in the state's history. investigators are still searching for the suspects in the case. the house panel investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol is expected to reveal new details about the case later this spring. congressman liz cheney, the vice chair of the house select committee said yesterday on "meet the press" that the panel may make new recommendations about legislation and criminal penalties for officials who fail to carry out their duties. >> our first priority is to make recommendations and we're looking at things like do we need additional enhanced criminal penalties for the kind of supreme dereliction of duty that you saw with president trump when he refused to tell the mob to go home after he had provoked that attack on the capitol. so there will be legislative recommendations and there certainly will be more information, and i can tell you, i have not learned a single thing since i have been on this

committee that has made me less concerned or less worried about the gravity of the situation and the actions that president trump took and also refused to take while the attack was underway. >> in just over two hours from now, president biden's supreme court nominee judge ketanji brown jackson will face senators for the first day of her confirmation hearings. it's the start of a rigorous four-day process where judiciary committee members will grill judge jackson on her record and beliefs before holding a vote, which if approved will send her nomination to the full senate for consideration. those hearings will begin wan opening statement from the chairman of the judiciary committee, senator dick durbin of illinois who joins us now. also with us for this conversation, senior opinion writer and columnist for boston globe opinion, kimberly atkins

store, and reverend al sharpton is back along with us as well. good to have you with katty and us as well. >> would you like to give your opening statement now, what do the american people expect? >> i think they expect the obvious, this is a momentous historic opportunity for the senate judiciary committee to i a prove the nomination of a well-qualified person to serve on the court and to break down another wall in the united states resistance. she'll be the first african-american woman to serve on the supreme court. of course if you're going to be the first, you usually have to be the best, and she is. >> we expect the sort of heated back and forth that we get for most of these nomination fights or do you expect this to be a bit more bipartisan? >> i hope it's more bipartisan, and senator mcconnell, senator braso, a number of senate

republicans have said that, they want it to be respectful and fair. and ruining the party is charged by senator hawley of missouri which has been dismissed by major news sources, whether it's a question of "washington post" or recently abc, cnn, and the national journal, andrew mccarthy said last night, the national journal, the charges being leveled by hawley are meritless to the point of demagoguery, that's about as harsh as you can be, and i don't believe we should stand by and dismiss this as another political charge. this is disrespectful of the judge and her family. it's a serious charge involving child pornography, and there's no basis in fact for it. i have an unusual committee, joe, as you probably know, 11-11, and among the 11 republicans are the real fire breathers on the right. so i'm used to this kind of thing happening, and they're usually vying to where the crown is to be the most outrageous. while senator hawley is retiring

the crown with his charge! reverend al, what do you expect to see this week? what do you want to see? talk about the importance of this nomination battle. >> well, i think that i agree with senator durbin, this is extremely important. i salute president biden in this case. he made a commitment. i don't think it was based on some tokenism, i think it was based on the him saying the court ought to reflect the country, and a black woman has never been on the court, and you couldn't get one more qualified. what is disturbing, i got off the phone with riley who heads d.c. action network bureau, and there are women rallying at 9:00 in front of the supreme court is when you hear the things from senator hawley or when you hear some tv host saying where is her l.s.a.t. score, which we didn't

hear them ask for amy coney barrett's score. the racial element is always there, and we have tried not to bring any of that in by overplaying our support and our pride with her. but you clearly have to answer some of this late rhetoric that's come forward, and we've tried to let people like senate durbin and them do what they had to do, but again, you're dealing with some forces that have forced civil rights groups to come out and say, no, we've got to publicly show we're not going to see a double standard. you couldn't get anyone more qualified than this nominee that president biden has given us in judge jackson. >> so kimberly, if you want to respond to some of the concerns that have been risen, and you may wonder what else americans may learn about this judge. she comes from a family of police officers. she worked as a public defender. it's interesting. >> yes, there's no one on the

court that has that public defender experience, so it's beyond just being the first black woman nominated to the court, she would diversify the court in a number of ways, geographically, growing up in florida, she is, as you said, comes from a law enforcement family, was on the sentencing commission. but i think the blows, the swipes that may be taken at her by senator republican colleagues is something she will be ready for. if you are a black woman in any profession, but i can voump for in the legal question, you're constantly questioned whether you belong in the spaces you're in, you're deemed an affirmative action pick, and you have to prove you deserve the job constantly, and i think she's a pro at that. >> you're not worried she's ready. >> senator, 20 years ago, a candidate like judge jackson would have got a serious amount of support from the republican party. in today's america, do you think she will be confirmed by more than 50 votes and the vice

president? >> well, i hope so. and we're working on it behind the scenes. and i have. the first call i made when i heard about justice breyer was retiring was chuck grassley, by republican counter part on the committee, and senator collins and a few others on the republican side basically to say to them when the nomination is announced, you'll have your chance to meet face to face, and she has, and if you have any information or questions, let me know. i want to make sure you get all the information you wish. i'm hopeful. if we can get a bipartisan vote, either in the committee or in the floor, it's good for the senate. and it's good for the court. >> so what are you hearing back from republicans? i know lindsey graham who supported her before is now saying he's not going to support her, what about other republicans. >> i have given up on lindsey or anyone until they tell me face to face. he was disappointed because he was supporting judge childs, jim clyburn's choice from south carolina. i hope i can bring lindsey

around to at least consider this nominee, and i did have one very conservative republican senator say to me in private she's making a good impression. she's made the rounds. she's visited 45 senators. every member of the judiciary committee and many others answers the questions that ques of them treat her as a celebrity, which i think she is. as you mentioned, she's made a great record in her life against great odds. i want to turn to ukraine, if i may, just get your thoughts on how this progresses if we go into sort of this period where the attacks are still happening but no solutions are being put into, you know, play. we're looking ahead to the nato meeting this week and then president biden will head to poland. but ukrainian president zelenskyy addressed israel's parliament yesterday and called on the legislative body to take a harder stance against russia. take a look.

>> he's raising some really important questions around the world. >> he is. and of course he of course by his example shows the kind of courage we all hope we can reach and provide at a moment of real testing. and the people that are fighting on behalf of ukraine, my

goodness, could i do that if that were my home, stand open, say hand me a rifle, i'll give my life if i have to? it's an inspiration. now he reaches out to us and to the world and says to each of us, look back in your history. wasn't there a moment when you were tested? now are you going to stand by us as we're tested? i think it's an inspiration to all of us and a challenge to every single one of us at a moral level. >> should the united states be doing more? >> i don't know, joe. the president is trying to balance the obvious. he wants to help ukraine in every way possible but stay short of world war iii or any nuclear confrontation. that's a tough call, and i think -- i've looked at, for example, the question of no-fly zones, polish migs, and i understand the complexity. we have to understand, too, that he is acting as the head of or part of an alliance. it isn't his decision alone to make. >> so interesting, you follow

the polls at the beginning of this crisis, 26% of americans wanted the u.s. to be involved. a couple weeks later, like 75% wanted a no-fly zone, which would be an act of war against russia. it really is difficult for the president and others to get the gauge of the public, figure out exactly what they should do, because they watch the suffering on television and are always saying we need to do more, we need to do more, but that's not always possible, is it. >> no. and i think the difference is exactly what you said. the visual images every single day. americans were war weary after afghanistan and iraq and wars that never seemed to end. there was a fear of u.s. involvement. they didn't want troops on the ground. but they also see this as an atrocity. it has unified the west in a way that is not advantageous of vladimir putin. what i don't know, and i don't know if the senator can she would light on this, i don't

know what the end game is for pew sin at this point. things are not going his way and i don't see how he de-escalates and how you keep it from escalating further. >> you could not watch that video that zelenskyy presented to congress as a parent or grandparent, watch those lifeless bodies of those children and not be physically and emotionally moved. i was, and so many of my colleagues were. at the same time, we have to understand the final decision is going to be made by the ukrainian people through zelenskyy. it's not going to be made in washington or in moscow. it's going to be made by them as to how far they'll go to bring an end to this. and i'll just tell you, over the weekend, we had a visit with chicago, probably noticed, former president clinton, president bush brought sunflowers to the ukrainian orthodox church, which i've been to almost sunday for the last month. that was not missed on the people of ukrainian descent. they loved to see that kind of birp support. >> it's extraordinary. hey, rev, before we let you go,

tell us what you have planned for this week, what other civil rights groups have planned for this week as this battle for the next supreme court justice takes place. >> well, as i said, black women's groups are gathering at 9:00 this morning. many of us will be down sitting in the hearing room to make sure that people understand that this is about what's best for the country and that you couldn't have a better qualified candidate, and we are going to stay on this. we are only asking for fairness. she's been before the senate three times. i do not understand how people can vote and say she should be on the d.c. circuit court of appeals, but she shouldn't be on the supreme court. i don't understand the logic of a lindsey graham, and we're going to be there to support her and be there to support the president's nomination because we think it was appropriate,

proper, and good for the court. >> i remember when ronald reagan pointed sandra day o'connor, some men grumbling, but so many women, what was that 40 years ago, being energized by what does this selection mean for so many americans. >> it means a lot. it means this is a court that reflects the american people. look, it doesn't change the ideological makeup of the court, but it changes the court and makes it reflect america, and the people on the court are making the decisions that affect every single american. they should bring those lived experiences. it should look more like them. there has been no impediment of white men making to the supreme court. >> no, there has not. >> nobody is being harmed here. >> take a deep breath. also culturally about the court, and i think, senator, we lose this a lot of times, they're pretty close, the nine justices are pretty close. they sit together. they talk together.

they have dinner together. scalia and ginsburg. and just a cultural change of having someone in and come in and say wait a second, let me tell you what it's like being a black woman in america to eight other colleagues but also friends. it's going to have a substantial impact. >> it will impact in the senate. >> right. >> the arrival of so many women taking leadership roles. it makes a better institution. i think we're more representative and responsive. >> dick durbin, thank you very much. we'll be watching the supreme court nomination hearing just a short time from now live right here on msnbc. kimberly atkins storr, thank you as well. reverend al sharpton, thank you, and kathy, of course. jose diaz ballard picks up the

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