get started with internet and voice for $64.99 a month. and ask how to add securityedge™. or, ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. if it's friday, this hour president biden is leaving southeastern poland while getting his own look at the growing humanitarian crisis as he prepares to deliver his own major address on the conflict near the war zone. plus, russian forces continue their assault on ukraine and its people. as mariupol officials finally confirm that, yes, 300 people appear to have died in that russian strike on civilians in a theater. and that was being used as a

shelter clearly marked with the word "children" visible from the air. >> and criticisms of the first black supreme court nominee. welcome to "meet the press daily." i'm chuck todd. right now president biden is about to leave for warsaw as he confronts challenges. earlier today the president met with u.s. troops from the 82nd airborne division in poland, highlighting just some of the forces that have been deployed already to bolster the security of nato's eastern flank. >> we're in the midst of and i don't want to sound too philosophic here but you're in the midst of a fight between

democracy and oligarchs. so what's at stake, not just what we're doing here in ukraine to help the ukrainian people and keep the massacre from continuing, but beyond that what's at stake, what are your kids and grand kids going to look like in terms of their freedom? >> the president's visit to southeastern poland put him just 50 miles from the border, part of the war zone. president biden was joined by pred duda. president biden will deliver what they're describing as a major address about the challenges that lie ahead for the west. more than 3.7 million have already fled the country. nearly 2 million have fled to

poland. while food and medical relief is making its way to ukrainians, russia continues its saw the on northern targets. a local politician posted this video of damage and officials say about 300 people died in that theater. hundreds of people were using the theater at simply a shelter. nbc news has not been able to independently verify that number of dead. joining me is kelly o'donnell. she's in warsaw, poland, traveling with the president and joining me on set is kirk volker, a former ambassador for nato. let me start with kelly o'donnell traveling with the president. kelly, we heard the president's remarks earlier today. i'm curious, what should we expect in this speech he's giving here? when presidents give formal speeches overseas, they have

multiple audiences that they intend to hear those remarks. what should we expect? >> well, in some ways, chuck, the president may have tipped a bit of that today when he spoke with the airmen and the paratroopers from the 82nd airborne, the soldiers from that elite division. the president talked at times about what was at stake, the existential threat, giving you a sense of what's on his mind could be reflected in remarks tomorrow. this is the message, one of the audiences is vladimir putin and trying to show the solidarity, the unity that the president is stressing between the united states, the european allies, the nato allies, all of the leaders he's been meeting with, unity in terms of how they will stand together to continue to have economic consequences for russia and military support for ukraine, humanitarian support

for the people being displaced by putin's unprovoked war. so certainly putin is one of the audiences for that. some of it is for the ukrainian people, some of it is for a world audience and certainly president zelenskyy is one of the people who has been imploring world leaders to do more, to stand for peace, to hear the cries of the ukrainian people. he is one of the audience members and as always, the president has to speak to the american people who are fund being the u.s. component of aid, support and by seeing the faces of american soldiers today, shaking the hands of some of those people he's put in this part of europe, plussing up the resources here, that's a part of it, too. so this is one of the more layered trips of all the white house trips i've covered where you've got so many different components, all are important, all are complicated and he's got to juggle it all at once. chuck? >> very quickly, poland and the united states government haven't always been on the same page on

nato in particular in dealing with russia in general and most recently it was the mig issue. unclear why poland was ready do it directly and then they were like no. we still don't know the full back story there. i notice it hasn't come up so far on this trip. do you expect it to? >> reporter: well, it will be interesting to see if it was a part of the private conversations we don't have a sense of that. certainly the president of poland was speaking today, he was emphasizing unity. they seemed to have moved on to other kinds of weapon systems at the moment. one of the other interesting things is jake sullivan, the president's national security adviser, says there is convergence, the word he used, among the allies about how they would respond to any chemical or biological attack by putin or russia in ukraine. not saying what that would be but suggesting that there is a unified sense of how they would

respond, which is important because as much as there is unity, there are differing opinions about differing approaches that the country should take. that was notable to me today. >> kelly o'donnell on the ground for us in warsaw. richard, i had a former nato supreme allied commander said yesterday after hearing your report about what appears to be the new russian strategy, that some of the military strategy seems to be designed for the negotiating table. meaning that it's trying to double down on what they have in the east and trying to harden their forces there. is that a fair way to look at this? and what are your ukrainian sources telling you? >> reporter: so the russians today just said that they are consolidating their forces in the east. they just announced through the russian defense ministry that the main effort now is to

liberate, and that's the term they use, the entire donbas region, which is eastern ukraine. they say that phase one, they didn't say if there may be other phases but saying phase one suggests that they are, is nearly complete. so that does suggest that they are trying to hold on to territory, to solidify their gains, to control as much of ukraine as possible, particularly in areas close to the russian border, which is eastern ukraine, potentially for some negotiations, although ukrainian negotiators just today said that the russian position in negotiations has gotten harder. and the ukrainian foreign minister said in a statement that ukraine has no intention of giving up its sovereignty and no intention of negotiating away the country. so it might be used for negotiation or russia might try and keep it but it seems like it

is putting itself in position to hold territory for some period of time. the two areas i think that are important to watch right now, and you mentioned both of them, the city of mariupol. mariupol is in the southeast. it is completely surrounded by russian forces. it is the only city in that area in the southeast that is still holding out. much of the city has been taken over by russia. but there is still a pocket of ukrainian resistance. the city is paying a tremendous price and we learned about some of those casualties today when local officials in mariupol said that nine days ago when the russians struck a theater in the center of the city, they killed 300 people. and as you mentioned, a number we haven't been able to verify. the other city to watch, chernihiv, about 100 miles northeast in kyiv. they're watching what happened in mariupol and they're

concerned the same thing might happen to him. they have a population of close to 300,000 and they are surrounded on three sides. there is an exit and entry point but when you have the russians surrounding you on three sides, it clearly is a very dangerous situation for the people. >> richard engel in kyiv for us. of course, please stay safe. ambassador, thank you for coming in. let's start with what would negotiations look like at this point and where -- what's your sense of what the zelenskyy government is even comfortable investigating? >> well, at this stage i think the ukrainians have very much toughened up their position for a variety of reasons. the russians have been brutal in attacking ukraine. they've killed thousands of people. there's 10 million people on the move, 3 million in other countries. the ukrainian government is saying this has to end, the russians have to get out. that's their basic line here. the russians, on the other hand,

are still not giving up. they're saying we want ukraine to surrender, we want territory, we want recognition that crimea is part of russia so the russians aren't negotiating seriously either. >> there is a point where zelenskyy has backed off on nato membership. are we going to be in the uncomfortable position, we, nato and the west, where we have to accept a deal that he takes that may give putin more than we're willing to accept? >> i don't think so. what i've been hearing in the last couple days is pressure the other way around. >> just the opposite. >> yeah, from some of our allies telling zelenskyy you need to cut a deal and this is too much. zelenskyy is now is refusing to do it. he militarily have stopped the russians, it's been a month now. his people are looking at him and he can't let them down by

saying now we're going to give things away. >> i think about your experience with ukraine. i'm curious, compare now to even ten years ago. it does feel as if there really is a ukrainian sovereignty. >> yes. >> that i think the russians didn't really expect. >> you're absolutely right. and this is one of the great transformations over the last decade or even since just 2014, eight years. when russia invaded crimea and started the war in donbas, there was a lot of ambivalence in ukraine, they didn't like the government -- >> it made it harder for us to create an international resistance to crimea? there wasn't enough internal resistance? >> i wouldn't say that. we were telling the ukrainians at the time don't fight back, don't escalate, we'll negotiate this and we were taken by surprise that the russians moved as fast as they did and that they moved to annexation right away. that took everybody by surprise. then the second invasion was in

donbas and ukrainians did fight. that's how we ended up with a cease-fire line and the minsk agreements. ever since then, ukraine has been in a battle with russia. there's been a front line, young people sent and a few people killed every week. this is a national sense of identity far stronger than anything that existed before. >> let's talk about what nato can do and will do or what they will and won't say. the decision to be ambiguous about if you do chemical weapons, that changes the calculus. if you're changing the calculus, you're not involved. that must mean they are involved. what do you want putin to read into that? >> it's wise not to be explicit. let putin guess. we have capabilities that could

really do damage if we wanted to and we're not doing it but if they touched nuclear weapons or biological weapons, we might. >> a month from now if we're in month three of this war and we're in the same spot, the russians trying to grind down ukrainians in the east but they haven't gotten to kyiv. i sometimes vacillate are the europeans are going to crack and be like we're tired with this or the other way, let's get involved, enough is enough. >> i think it's going to hinge on the humanitarian situation. we have this surreal feeling that it's been a month, these are refugees, they're in poland, not going to other countries so it seems like this is somehow temporary. if we see continued bombardment of the cities, i do think that

gels in europe now we can't allow this to continue. >> you're describing sort of central europe in the mid 90s, right? >> yes. >> there was a point where enough is enough. >> in the balkans. or something like in srebrenica. we're underestimating how much putin doesn't want us to intervene. he's afraid of that. he can't win now either. >> what did you think of zelenskyy when you first met him and did you think he was basically going to become a 24th century churchill? >> first off, nobody imagined this would be happening two or three years ago. when i met him, he was earnest. he was coming from outside politics and he wanted to change things.

i think it's those characteristics that have made him the leader he is the wartime now. here cares about the country and about the people. >> he has a strong compass. thanks for coming in. nato allies are sending a clear warning to china, do not help russia. will xi jinping listen? we'll speak to a former national security official who is one of the current architects of the u.s.-china policy. >> and the text messages from ginny thomas reveal what appears to be a brazen effort to urge trump's chief of staff to overturn the 2020 election. you're watching "meet the press daily." "meet the press daily.

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welcome back. the u.s. and more than 30 allied powers continue to sharpen the economic influence on russia, one wild card remains, china.

statements from our nato and eu and g-7 partners yesterday separately all made it clear that concerns are growing over china's role or potential role in this war. and speaking in brussels yesterday, president biden said he warned president xi jinping in a phone call last week that helping russia would bring consequences. take a listen. >> i made no threats but i pointed out the number of american and foreign corporations that left russia as a consequence of that barbaric behavior. i think that china understands that its economic future is much for closely tied to the west than it is to russia. so i'm hopeful that he does not get engaged. >> joining me now is the form are u.s. deputy national security adviser under -- inside the trump administration, matt

pottinger. matt, it's good to have you back. let me start with this and get you to react to the nato statement yesterday and in your experience what the chinese heard when they read the statement. "we call on all states, includes the people's republic of china to abstain from supporting russia's war effort in any way and to refrain from any action that helps russia circumvent sanctions. obviously i know what that says to an american audience, but what is the prc -- how would they be interpreting this statement and what do you expect them to do in response? >> sure. good to be with you, chuck. what it shows is that beijing's attempted strategy here is not working. the strategy all along was to

quietly underwrite and support vladimir putin and his war in europe but pretend to be a neutral player and someone who could step in and mediate. the world's not buying it because the biden administration has been skillful in authorizing the release of intelligence that shows just how close those ties are, shows that xi jinping discussed the timing of the war in ukraine all the way back in early february when they signed their communique together at the opening of the beijing olympics. they've shown that the west is aware, has the intelligence and the wherewithal to monitor any financial support that beijing might provide to putin to evade sanctions or military material, as you mentioned. so the west is basically saying we got your number, we know what you're doing, we know what

you're contemplating, you will get caught and there will be consequences. >> it seems the place that i guess experts i talk to think is the most likely way china might quietly try to help russia is simply energy contracts, purchasing whatever energy they can't sell to europe. if that is what we see them doing, what do you believe should be the policy response? >> yeah. well, first of all, i'm not sure that it will be limited to that. i think we should expect what you just laid out but look at what beijing has done for north korea and for iran over the years, as those two countries have been under u.n. sanctions, as well as u.s. sanctions. beijing has, you know, pitched a lifeline to both of those countries to keep them afloat. not to make up to the massive losses to their economies from

those sanctions but to give them a lifeline, to buy oil, provide oil in the case of north korea and create session purpose financial vehicles that are designed specially to evade sanctions. i think we should expect beijing will do what it's done in those two examples of iran and north korea and repeat that for russia. now, the oil sector, oil and gas is the one area that we have not gone all in on. i think that there's some logic in not going all the way just yet, leaving a little bit of space for an off ramp, but beijing is going to get caught in that web if the west decides that it wants to go after the energy exports, too. >> i guess the question i have, though, is what kind of stomach is either the eu or the united states, we are in an unstable economy thanks to inflation, thanks to supply chain, energy

issue, covid, et cetera. what kind of punishment could we level on china that doesn't already create a more disruptive economy, which we all know, every international leader here, including our president and germany's chancellor, they have one eye on their domestic reaction, too. what is something that's realistic? >> yeah, well, look, you put your finger on it. it's the word stomach or we could say will, right? we're sending mixed signals right now. the signal that we want to send is the signal that we're sending with the galvanized solidarity of the west against russia. we're willing to eat economic pain and disruption as the cost of maintaining the sovereignty and stability of europe and so that is a very effective signal but at the same time we're

sending a contradictory signal when we, for example, say that we're going to negotiate with iran to relieve their -- give them sanctions relief in return, allow them to sell oil because we're worried about the rising price of gas at the gas pump. that is a contradictory signal. beijing is going to read both of those and knowing xi jinping, he's probably going to look for those signals of weakness and have a bias toward those signals as being where we really are. we've got to really stop that negotiation. >> he does have a little -- what internal pressure does he have about his economy, though? he's got a little bit to be concerned about himself, no? >> look, the things he's doing are not in china's interests but he believes that they are in his personal interest. right now he's a dictator. we've erased -- he has erased literally from history, he just

did a hundred year retrospective of communist party history and denoted his three immediate predecessors and he's gone back to taking a page where he's elevated himself as an all-powerful dictator. i don't think he cares about economic growth except as a very distant second priority to his own authority and power. >> that is, shall we say, an unfortunate change in perspective that i think probably has to change our own perspective when it comes to china. matt pottinger, former deputy national security adviser, appreciate you coming on and getting your perspective here. >> thanks. >> up next, the growing fights over school boards and curriculum. what it means for national politics. we're kicking off season four of "meet the press reports, a deep

dive into classroom culture wars." that's up next. e wars." that's up next and as i pass it on to my daughter, it's an important part of understanding who we are. it's still the eat fresh refresh, and subway's refreshing their app. so you can customize your favorite footlong, set a pickup time, and jump the line! oh, here she goes! ugh, i thought she was actually gonna jump. just use this code and order on the subway app! inner voice (furniture maker): i'm rubbing the arms of my chair... ...admiring the craft and detail i've put into it. that way i try to convince myself that i'm in control of the business side of my business. intuit quickbooks makes it easy for you to get a complete view of your business. so you can sit back and... ...relax.

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it's time to say goodbye to appliance heartbreaks. back pain, and fatigue. and hello to new quality finds you'll love on wayfair. you can always get the brands you trust. the support you need. and dependability you can count on. plus, get financing up to 60 months on qualifying purchases. fast and free delivery. and installation and haul-away. so with wayfair, you'll always find your perfect match. ♪ wayfair you got just what i need ♪ welcome back. "meet the press reports" is back for a fourth season. we have a great slate of episodes planned for the weeks ahead. in our first episode, we're taking a deep dive into how education and school boards have become the new front line of the culture wars. what began over as debate over

masked mandates has turned into a fight over what children are being taught, clash on race, gender, parental right, who should read what books, et cetera. one senior correspondent said how it felt to get caught in the middle of this debate. >> our people are getting beat up and there is no more noubl noble job and you won't find a group more committed to our kids and they are fallout, unfortunately. >> kate snow went to florida to report on the school board fights. i was talking to somebody who said, you know, we brought the classroom into the home and parents suddenly decided to get more involved, referring of course to covid. here we are. >> i think you're right, chuck. this is the newest battleground now. school board meetings are the

front lines we went to brevard, florida. that board chair that you just saw crying, she had to kick the entire audience out at one point. she told me she was worried people were going to hit each other. in brevard county, one of the most vocal groups are members of moms for liberty. they were found by a woman who lost her seat after running against masks in school. you pulled your son out of the brevard schools. >> yeah. while i was on the school board, we voted to mandate masks and other covid policies i didn't agree with for children. >> reporter: a few weeks later, a conservative member was ousted and she formed moms for liberty in december 2020. did you sort of see an opening, like a need? >> absolutely. parental rights constantly get stepped on, stepped on. but the bigger problem was parental neglect. parents were not involved, not checked in. >> reporter: why do you think so many parents have joined your group and are so much more

active? >> because the establishment has gone too far. where that your slowly over time stepping on parental rights, they have completely stomped on them in 2020. and parents' eyes were opened. >> reporter: because of the pandemic? >> yeah, because of the pandemic. >> reporter: a left-leaning group calls themselves families for safe schools. they say they have the same number of members but they have zero budget whereas moms for liberty has a budget approaching half a million dollars a years and they're all over florida and in 34 states. >> it's a real political movement. they're getting professional help to do this, aren't they? >> reporter: well, they say they're not getting national help. they say that they don't even have a close relationship with the governor, which ron desantis, but they also say they've started a super pac to raise money potentially for

advertising and they have a lot of donors and they're trying to get big fish now, appeal to big name donors in the republican field. >> oh, my. politicizing of our education. kate snow, really great job. thank you for this. >> thanks, chuck. >> you can watch the full episode on demand on peacock. go to the app, checks it out. all season long we'll have new episodes streaming. thursday night at 10:30 p.m. and then it's on demand fridays on peacock. by the way, catch up with other seasons while you're there. up next, we learned from the fiery confirmation hearings for judge ketanji brown jackson as republicans press the nominee on issues tied to race and crime. you're watching "meet the press daily." watching "meet the pres daily. these moments may not seem remarkable. but at pfizer, protecting the regular routine, and everyday drives us to reach for exceptional.

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are coming to california. their online sports betting initiative would break the promise between us. it's bad for tribes and all californians. join us. protect the promise. welcome back. it was an emotionally and political charged week of historic confirmation hearings in the united states senate as judge ketanji brown jackson faced questioning from the senate judiciary committee.

some republican lawmakers used their time as an opportunity to fight culture war battles on national television, appealing to perhaps a small part of the base on the right, attempting to frame her as soft on crime, sympathetic to pedophiles and a left-wing advocate. >> this is what you and i know. any one of us senators could yell as loud as we want that venus can't return a serve, that beyonce can't sing. we can yell that astronaut may jamison didn't go all that high. but you know what? they got nothing to prove. as it says in the bible, let the work i've done speak for me. well, you have spoken. they're going to accuse you of this and that.

heck, in honor of the person who shares your birthday, you might be called a communist, but don't worry, my sister, don't worry. god has got you. and how do i know that? because you're here. and i know what it's taken for you to sit in that seat. >> i'm joined by former senator carol most live braun mosley-br. senator, you have a unique experience. you had a unique -- perhaps you went through some things that people were wondering why did she have to go through that as a freshman senators and not others? and i'm just curious of what

your thoughts were as you watched that this week. >> thanks for having me. i jumped the gun on that one. judge jackson is eminently qualified and quite frankly, hers shud should be a bullet-proof nomination. i hate to same the political climate has changed sufficiently that people see this as an opportunity for political theater and to make points with a narrow base. they're appealing to the worst instincts of the american people. quite frankly, as a country i believe we'd moved past that. these racist tropes they're coming up with haven't worked for, what, 50 years? but quite frankly, if you look at it this way, she has comported herself with such dignity, such class, such composure. i have been so proud of her because, frankly, were it me, unfortunately i got a shorter

fuse so i don't know that i could have been that composed as she has been. but she's shown the absolute best judicial temperament in all of this nonsense. >> i think, senator, observing the first year i started covering politics is when you won. you went through some things and i think you kept your composure in other ways that people said they didn't know if they could have. let me ask you about just compare the ruth bader ginsburg confirmation hearing that you ever went through and ketanji brown jackson. >> think about it. when i say the racist tropes, the whole issue that black people are somehow softer on crime, that black people are not patriotic. you just go down the list of the kinds of stereotypes that came from the turn of the last century and they're throwing it at her again under the guise of culture wars. this is all about reelection and all about posturing for the american people, but i hope that

they will rediscover shame and that the american people will resist some of these efforts to denigrate what is an eminently qualified nominee. and i don't say that because i'm a black woman and she is, too. i say that because you look at her credentials. her credentials are unimpeachable on any standards. even going down the child pornography and crime route. these questions were not asked of the other supreme court nominees that have come before the committee. and so she's had a tougher row to hoe but i guess that's where progress is found, when you can get through the really tough times and when you can get through the kind of dignity she's shown, she will come out of this all right. i agree with senator booker because what he said was right. god's got her back and that she should be all right because she does have the qualifications, she does have the credentials

and the experience and the demeanor. >> you jumped the gun on justice. senator joe manchin today who many say had the 50th vote have come out in favor of her candidacy. it's hard to imagine she doesn't end up as justice at this point. but let me ask you, why is it important in your mind, why is it important to have a black woman on the supreme court? >> because it will help to bring perspectives that are missing right now. i ran for the senate because of the thomas nomination. thurgood marshal and the warren court made my life possible. i did have similar backup busses, i could freely travel in the country, i got to marry my husband, which would have been illegal had it not been for the war in court, i got to attend schools and get credentialed, i'm not as credentials as judge

jackson and i got to at that all that because the warren court set the case for this country and to come out of segregation. i fear that some of the members of the senate right now are harkening back to the days before we had achieved that progress and appealing to a very narrow base. i hope it's a very narrow base and i hope that the american people take note of who votes for her confirmation and who doesn't. because, quite frankly, there are people who are sympathetic to moving forward out of segregation in this country and if those people say we won't have it, then we will see real change. and i hope, again, her perspectives on the court as a former public defender, as a former clerk to judges at all levels, she is eminently qualified and i think she'll bring that and the life experiences to her decision

making that will make a difference for the country. >> former senator carol moseley-braun, i really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. >> it's my pleasure. thank you so much for having me. >> coming up, the tex that -- text that we now now the january 6th committee has from the wife of a sitting justice advocating the overthrow of the president. t . we all know where the bathroom is and how to us it, okay? you know, the stevensons told me they saved money bundling their boat insurance with progressive. no one knows who those people are. -it can be painful. -hand me your coats. there's an extra seat right here. no, no, no, no, no. we don't need a coat wrangler. progressive can't save you from becoming your parents, but we can save you money when you bundle home, auto, and more with us. no one who made the movie is here. power e*trade gives you an award-winning mobile app with powerful, easy-to-use tools, and interactive charts to give you an edge,

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and 5g maps that are mostly gaps— they're switching to t-mobile for business and getting more 5g bars in more places. save over $1,000 when you switch to our ultimate business plan... ...for the lowest price ever. plus, choose from the latest 5g smartphones— like a free samsung galaxy s22. so switch to the network that helps your business do more for less—join the big switch to t-mobile for business today. welcome back. the ketanji brown jackson hearings weren't the only major development involving the supreme court last week. last night "the washington post" and cbs news reported ginny thomas, the wife of justice clarence thomas spent mark meadows text messages containing outlanding theories about the 2020 election and urged him to pursue efforts to overturn the biden victory.

we here at nbc news has reached out to ginny thomas and mark meadows and haven't heard back. some people will raise questions about the credibility of the institution of the supreme court and it is worth noting that justice thomas was the lone dissenting vote on the decision to release trump white house records to the january 6th select committee. joining me is gene robinson, also an msnbc political analyst. let's start to what to make of these text messages. gene, i'll start with you. we actually had a debate this morning, is this a january 6th story or a supreme court story? i say this because, you know, it doesn't appear to be material to january 6. the thinking is one thing and that's --

>> yeah. >> but let me ask you, does it raise questions about the integrity of the court? >> absolutely it does. it can't not raise questions. obviously, you know, spouses are not the same person and it's kind of well established in washington that you can have separate professional lives and -- >> yeah, well established until a political party decides it's not. >> or until you run into a situation like this where it happens that she is one of the -- you know, one of the stop the steal people and she's in the texts, she's been texting back and forth to the white house and who knows who else, and he happens to be the only vote against releasing this material. yes, it raises questions. >> matt? >> i think his views on the executive branch are very well

known, and i am less surprised by that vote. in 1993, the supreme court did sign on to a rule internally that outlawed -- excuse me, outlined the family dynamic. as long as your family member is not benefiting from the litigation financially, you're fine. this is not new. i think if this was, you know, jenny jones, this wouldn't be a problem. of course, too, you are seeing republicans really close ranks because it's justice thomas that we have seen over the last 30 years. >> and what would the reaction have been if it was sonia sotomayor's spouse? >> i think stepping back there has been a shift since

cavanaugh, and i can tell you that this -- absolutely the right look to have -- it was a proactive campaign to defend him. >> i ask both of you to react to this. gene, in the hras last seven years, and let's start with the garland nomination that wasn't. judges are either on my side or on the other side, and nobody feels the judges are in the middle any more, and that's going to be something we will wish we didn't erode. >> i wish it now. i wish we had the view of the judiciary that we used to have. supreme court justices would go

and surprise us in many directions, and not as many surprises now. >> yeah, mark murray and i were talking about this this morning, justice gorsuch -- >> yeah, alito and thomas never really surprise. >> and they never will. >> and sotomayor doesn't surprise. >> she's an occasional surprise. >> yes, she is. >> small scale compared to hugo -- >> that's it, we don't have the perception the judiciary is a fair arbiter. >> i would agree. >> yeah, and also, too, though, there's no talking more on the right of this person is turning into a suitor where it's you are just left and -- >> we saw that problem with the federal society for better for worse. >> i would go back further to garland, and i would go back to

bourque -- >> that was world war i. >> yeah, they each accuse the other of starting it. >> it's not just the supreme court, but when you read a story about a big decision made by a district court judge or court of appeals, and i don't know about you, but i read that in the story and it's appointed by bush, or appointed by barack obama, and it didn't used to be. i was thinking back to the way the stories used to read. they didn't always have that in there. >> is that an editorial decision that was made, do you feel like -- >> i feel like -- >> i feel like it happened organically. now that we are talking about it, i will go back and research and then we can talk about it. >> if you are a red sox fan, a

red sox fan, or yankees, and it's affiliates of the yankees or red sox and there's identifications there and i think it's a little more tribal. >> yeah, i hear you. i will say on the district level we at least to get some surprises. i feel like the judiciary committee committee attracts -- >> it's like bringing congress with c-span, right? the way you stop it is don't show them all day on cable news. >> i am not a sensor guy, yeah -- >> democrats last time, and republicans this time, they get their 30 minutes and do what they do. >> it's all performitive.

>> i am previewing this on sunday, and there were twice as many references to child pornography than to abortion. and this child pornography is tap into qanon. >> no, not really. this was going to be a low stakes argument. >> i am getting rushed off the air. appreciate you coming on. thank you all for being with us this hour. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." we have a brand-new nbc poll, and we will have the latest on ukraine.

and msnbc's coverage continues with hallie jackson after the break. break.

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. hey, there, i am hallie jackson in for katy tur this afternoon. right now air force one just touched down in warsaw. president biden is in poland for the second leg for the emergency trip to europe. you are looking at his first stop, troops looking to shore up nato