wonderful. >> alina ronny, author of the new book, crossing borders, the reconciliation of the nation of immigrants. it could not be any more timely, ali noorani, thank you. i am alicia menendez. i'll see you back here next weekend. 6 pm eastern for more american voices. the mehdi hassan show starts right now. e mehdi hassan>>. . . -- perhaps what stands out most, what makes it so egregious, is that in 2022 the world is watching a brazen attempt by the dictatorship to strangle democracy to death in a neighboring country. that was vladimir putin's path, to invade, occupy and conquer. to topple the government in kyiv. to detain or most likely kill

ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy, came to power in 2019 with 73% of the vote, and with international monitors call a free, compatible and -- the attack on democracy in ukraine is an outrage. i yield to no one in my criticism of the tragedy, blunder, crime, but at least iraq was a brutal dictatorship or no one would contest that reading the world of saddam hussein was no bad thing. ukraine, and when we, is the reverse of iraq. it is the dictatorship that is invading our democracy. that is one of the many things, reasons why what is happening in ukraine should matter so much to all of us. we are witnessing assaults on democracy and freedom across the globe. the rise of authoritarianism from russia to turkey, to india, to brazil, to venezuela, to of course, the middle east, and here at home, to. one recent study found that the state of democracy around the world fell to a record low last

year. that is the context for tonight's special two hour edition of this show. democracy, this is autocracy? it's a theme that the president of the united states has been banging on about since coming to office last year and last night in warsaw, a major address on the war in ukraine, joe biden doubled down while referencing the end of the cold war. >> nothing about that battle for freedom was simple or easy. it was a long and painful slowed. if not days and months, but years and decades. we merged a new in the great battle for freedom. a battle between democracy and autocracy, between liberty and repression, between a rule of-based order and won governed by brute force. in this battle, we need to be clear eyed. this battle will not be one in

days or months either. we need to steal ourselves for the long fight ahead. >> that is the right framing. democracy versus autocracy. that is what's at stake, not just in ukraine, but globally right now. so joe biden was at his best in poland yesterday. no doubt about that. inspiring in his rhetoric, spot on in his analysis. but he does have a tendency to also draw script to. he ended with these words. >> for god's sake, this man cannot remain in power. >> his aides were scrambling to walk back straight after he was done. those words were not in his prepared remarks. he did some like the u.s. was embarking on a very dangerous policy of regime change in moscow, something anthony blinken had to deny this morning in jerusalem. still, the sentiment behind biden's gaffe is correct. putin should not be in power.

he was not elected in a free and fair election and he is ruling right now is a tyrant, locking up protests and shutting down media organizations. now of course, we have a fair few tyrannical friends of our own, something i will discuss later this hour. we have our own issues with democracy and freedom here at home. oh yes but still, as the u.s. ambassador to uganda, natalie brown said two days after the insurrection on january the six last year, when we speak out against human rights abuses, we do so not because such abuses did not occur in america. when we speak out for press freedom, we do so not because american journalists are entirely free of harassment. when we call for a judicial independence we do so not because judges in america are free of external influence. on the contrary, we do so because we are mindful of the work still to be done in the american experiment with democracy, and because our history has told us that democracy must be defended if

it is to endure. wise words indeed. democracy must be defended. at home. a broad. among our adversaries, and among our allies. that is what's tonight special to our show is all about. in this first hour, we will talk about what is happening in ukraine and across the globe. in the second half, 9 pm, we will talk about the pernicious right-wing assault on democracy here in the united states. the fight against rising autocracy won't be easy. look, i get it. u.s. is hardly the most credible of messengers. but in the context of ukraine in particular, joe biden struck a powerfully optimistic note towards the end of his speech last night. >> so in this hour, let the words of pope john paul burns brightly today, never, ever give up hope. never doubt. never tire. never become discouraged. be not afraid.

a dictator bent on rebuilding an empire will never erase the people's love for liberty. brutality will never drag down the world to be free. ukraine will never be victory for russia. for free people refused to live in a world of hopelessness and darkness. hope and light, democracy. decency, dignity, freedom, possibilities. >> joining me now, an expert panel, jason stanley, professor of philosophy at yale university and author of how fascism works. the history professor at new york university. her book is called strongmen, mussolini to the present. former u.s. ambassador to china and former governor of washington. thank you all for joining me this evening. jason, let me start with you. is it fair to frame the russia

ukraine war as one of autocracy versus democracy? is that with a lot of this is about? >> absolutely. after maidan revolution of 2014, ukraine became a real democracy with all its struggles. it's not to say there are not issues of corruption that face every democracy, but which we have here is an example of a nation that isn't bracing liberal democracy, and just -- in the -- one soldiers fight for a democracy, they fight because they choose to fight. not used to fight. what we are seeing in the ukrainians struggle it's people who choose to fight for their country. >> you've studied strongmen and going back to mussolini. how historic is this moment we are in right now, given the seemingly global decline in

democracy? >> it's absolutely historic. starting with the fact that we are seeing both in the military performance, he evident miscalculation of putin. it's like the emperor has no clothes, because autocrats like putin, they use fear, repression to make people and the personality cults, stripping his stirred off the defender, the big macho man, to make people think they are omnipotent and infallible. what this shows is that none of those things are true. so it is quite a blow to these myths that have gone around for too long about the supposed advantages of autocracy and instead we see how much people are rooted in the desire for freedom. there has never been a more clear and evident demonstration

of that then right now. >> ambassador, is the united states positioned to lead his fight against autocracy globally, given our democratic challenges that home? given our undemocratic allies in places like the middle east? have we lost a lot of credibility on the global stage when it comes to democracy promotion? >> certainly our image as a beacon of democracy has been tarnished by the contested election refusal of trump to concede and he efforts to overturn the election, and of course the mob violence on january 6th, but still, we are that beacon of democracy, and yes we have a false. at least we acknowledge our faults and we know we are not perfect. so yes, i think that we can stand as an example, and we must lead this effort, certainly what we are seeing in ukraine is both tragic, absolutely tragic. and the brutality of putin and

the fact that he has no limits in terms of trying to take over the country. not through political persuasion, but by brute force, by killings. by the dislocation of people. but it is also inspiring to see the uprising of the ukrainian people and protest, and that they are willing to give their lives to defend their country, to protect their democracy. >> ambassador locke, were you surprised by the four forcefulness of the speech given by biden, the line at the end about putin should not be in charge of russia? >> i think everybody agrees. i mean, it may not be diplomatic to say that, but certainly given the brutality that he has inflicted, the suffering, the killing, the deaths, the dislocation that he has inflicted upon ukraine, there is really -- i mean, there's no excuse for him remaining in power. of course that is up to the

people within russia to change. but certainly it is the sentiment of the world. >> i do enjoy when a diplomat comes on the show and says it's not diplomatic to say this. glad to hear you speaking that way, ambassador. panel, stick around. we will continue this very important discussion after a very short break. all of you stick around. later on the show i will speak with the rifle wielding ukrainian member -- willing to protect its democracy. willing to protect its democracy. democracy. keeping a healthy body. what goes on it... usually. ♪♪ in it... mostly. even what gets near your body. please please please take that outside. here to meet those high standards is the walgreens health and wellness brand. over 2000 products. rigorously tested. walgreens pharmacist recommended... and particularly kind to your wallet. ♪♪ we are talking democracy this

hour and the next. my expert panel is still with me. historian and former -- jason, when we talk about the rise of global liberalism, the rush is an india, where did these kinds of countries have in common and why is this happening now? >>why is thi happening now? >> liberal idea of groups living

together, of freedoms of leaders of leaders being replaced an undemocratic normal way and a tolerant multi aspect society. and we are at a rules based system. if you have a rules based system internationally, you can place restrictions on multinational corporations, on fossil fuels companies and you get labor rights. but if you break each country into little warren's ex than any multinational corporations can do whatever they want and have whatever relations they want between individual leaders. and you do not have a rules based international system. >> ruth, given your study of strongman, autocrats, what do you think is the best way of dealing with a vladimir putin? do we need to appeal to his ego, give him some sort of off ramp?

because biden yesterday was saying that he can't say the leader of russia, calling him a war criminal. is that helpful in the scenario? >> i was really glad that biden came out so strongly, because we have coddled these people for far too long. these are gangsters. there is a reason that putin called mafia states. and biden is perfect in being so strong and so resolute and calling these people out for what they are. because as you know, the kremlin spokesperson dimitri peskov, said that biden should not have said that, it is for russians to decide. which is true, and that putin has been elected by the russians, well not really. because they do not have fair and free elections in russia. and putin has to gain the whole system. anybody who is a real contender is either killed or sent to jail like navalny. this is the weakness of the

strongman. they cannot actually have fair and free elections and fair press, because they would not last very long. >> ambassador lock in his first press conference as president last year said that joe biden, and she jinping sees the future of a test of what autocracy's can achieve. is that how you think the chinese see the world? do you think they will be inspired to do to taiwan where russia has done ukraine? >> certainly they are going to be watching to see how the west reacts and continues to react to russia and putin for the invasion of ukraine. whether or not the west has real resolve to sustain and keep the sanctions in place. whether or not they are willing to cut themselves off from oil and natural gas. 40% of the natural gas that europe uses comes from russia. and so much more of the

petroleum comes from russia. so how far is the west really going to go in standing up for its principles in denouncing putin and the invasion of ukraine. or will they succumb to their own economic political needs. and certainly china is surprised at how swiftly and firmly and extensively the west has imposed these sanctions on russia. and clearly, they would be very leery and concerned about similar types of sanctions against it. or it to take military action against taiwan. >> quick last question ambassador, do you think the bigger beer barrier to dealing with russia and china are economic, or the fact they are nuclear armed powers? >> i think it is a combination of the two. they certainly have economic power over the west. with many of the products that we use in our daily lives in the united states and throughout europe coming from

china, how can you really impose some of these sanctions? because you would also be cutting off your supply of shoes, clothes, sporting goods, machinery, etc. and our farmers sell much of their output to china. huge economic sanctions and cutting off china from the world trading system would impact americans in their daily lives. but the question is, how far are we willing to go? how far the europeans willing to go in the name of upholding democracy and a rules based order when faced with invasions and tyrants like putin. >> yeah, how much are we willing to fight for democracy and also pay higher gas prices is the big question of our time. ambassador gary locke, thank you for your time tonight, rosanne jason please do stick around, we will be speaking with you about america's democratic crisis at the top of the 9:00 hour. next, we will speak with ukrainian about what her country needs to defeat

russia's invasion. but first let's check in with red richard. >> a muddy, some of the stories we are watching this hour, one day after a wildfire spurred evacuation orders for 19,000 people in colorado, that inferno is 35% contained. the boulder incident management team saying that zero structures were lost and zero injuries reported so far. a woman who was taking a boating trip in the grand canyon died on thursday. she fell into the rapids of the colorado river. it is unclear whether she was wearing a life to fast-. park rangers are investigating that. and a construction worker was killed while working on the demolition of a parking garage on saturday night. the worker suffered a substantial fall one part of the parking garage collapsed. the area around the parking garage has been shut down until further notice. more of the mehdi hasan show right after this. right after this you can forget the personality tests and social media quizzes. because the only way you're ever gonna know is by heading into the big, wild, raging

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with all the weapons, including in the air, including airplanes. everything to stop this brutal destruction. i mean, if you look at everything that happens, use of bombs, use of missiles, use of prohibited by the dvina convention, weapons everywhere. mariupol and others, we need, you know, unstoppable flow of supplies from everyone who is willing to give it to us in order to win. >> that was ambassador oksana markarova of ukraine this morning on meet the press. she expressed her gratitude for president biden's speech in support of ukraine, but you made it clear that she is hoping for more than words of support from the americans. meanwhile, speaking to russian journalist today according to reuters, ukrainian president laura meir zelenskyy says he was prepared to discuss security guarantees and strategies, non-nuclear -- we are ready to go for it. joining me now, member of the

ukrainian parliament and member of the opposition party, kira rudik, thank you so much for coming on the show. the theme is democracy versus autocracy. there are some on the political right who think america should not be back in ukraine. they say it's not democratic enough. listen to fox's tucker carlson. >> the point here is to defend democracy, not that ukraine is a democracy. it's not a democracy. ukraine's president has arrested his main political opponent. he has shut down newspapers and television stations that have dared to criticize him. so in american terms, you would call ukraine a tyranny. >> as an elected ukrainian lawmaker, the leader of an opposition party who is now rallying behind your elected president. what is your response to statements like that? >> hello, thank you so much for having me. well, ukraine is a democracy. and again, as a leader of oppositional party, as a person

who used to criticize president zelenskyy up today one of war, i can tell you, my rights are not taken down right now. we are working as one team. this is true. and ukrainian parliament, where we are gathering, we are going together. i can tell you right away, before showing this to the people, we have a four hour discussion with my partners with political parties every single day. before we come to the consensus. before we come to a conclusion. to show our people that we are united. to show our people that ukrainian parliament is working as one. it's critically important right now to show that democracy and democratic institutions work, but behind that i can tell you, they're still political parties, there's still different views, and the point that we have agreed within ourselves, that we will be come out as one does not mean that we will change

our political views, so as a liberal party we are still standing for our liberal values and discuss them with all the arguments, with our partners in the parliament. however, i still think critically important for our country that parliament will be showing the consensus every single time we are at the sitting. >> kira, the ukrainian ambassador was on meet the press today making the same point that your president has been making, that ukraine does not need u.s. boots on the ground, but does need unlimited supply of weapons from the u.s.. will that be enough, weapons supplies for ukrainians to continue to hold off the ongoing russian assault on your country? >> well, this depends on what is the goal. if the goal is to continue the war, then yes, everything we need is unlimited supplies. keep -- we will stand up. we will fight russians, and we

will be pushing them back. they will be pushing us forward. we are fighting against winds of the largest armies in the world. however, if we need to win this war, and we as ukrainians need to win this war, and we need something more than just a limited supplies. we need fighter jets. we need air force protection. we need an s-300. -- continuously asking for, we need to protect our skies. the issue that we have seen right now is that russia is doing very poorly on the ground. this is -- they are doing very well here. this is why they're able to destroy our cities and this is why they're able to keep us in a constant threat of destruction. in>> you said a moment ago, very passionately that ukraine will and needs to win this war. reuters is reporting today that president zelenskyy told russian journalists that he may

be willing to put ukrainian neutrality to a referendum as a way of ending the war and getting russian withdrawal. is that something you would support doing, the referendum? and support for, neutrality and getting the russians out? >> first of all, the president saying that the referendum again is telling you that we are a democracy. second, i do not believe that the peaceful agreement with putin would ever work. look, in 2014, when he invaded our eastern crimea, we had a mutual status. and i do not believe that the issue is the in the neutral status itself. it is in the security agreement that the world needs to get into. because no agreement with putin will matter until we get the security guarantees from other countries. so, without that, there is no point in a referendum. without that, there is no point

in agreeing to something with putin. >> last quick question. you went viral globally last month when you posted a picture of yourself with an ak-47, saying that you are going to have to learn to use it to protect your country. correct me if i'm wrong, but thankfully, you personally have not had to use it so far. but how many people in kyiv are there like yourself, signing up for military really active duty, who are not leaving the country and are willing to fight, stay and kill if the time comes. >> you are right, at this point i have not had to use the. but i am training, and on the 33rd day of war, i am much better than on day one. and i am proud that i'm getting this privilege to be able to have a respectable fighting with our armed forces if there would be a need. half of the population of kyiv, 2.5 million people who left. and 2.5 million stayed. and many of us are armed and

one joining the resistance that is getting ready to fight. and so we are getting ready, every single day that we are not getting russians in kyiv, we are getting more and more prepared. we are getting more and more resilient. and we are making heave our capital, a real fortress. >> we will have to leave it there, and i hope that you never have to use that weapon and continue to stay safe, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you and glory to ukraine. >> next, a chance for diplomacy in ukraine, my conversation with the french ambassador to the u.s.. plus, the math he has on show is available as a podcast and you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. er you get your podcasts made extraordinary. ingenuity... in motion.

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, those words are important to you. and ukrainians believe in this too. and we are expecting that your leadership will help encourage russia to seek peace. and to put an end to this war against liberty. against the quality, and brotherhood. >> that was president zelenskyy this week, addressing the french parliament where he underscored his country's urgent need for more arms and tougher sanctions from europe and the united states. i'm joined now by the french ambassador to the u.s., philip at cnn. ambassador, thank you so much for coming on the show. this morning, ukrainian ambassador to the u.s. appeared on meet the press, have a listen to what she said. >> what is the state of the negotiations with the russians? >> as we said from the beginning, we are ready to negotiate. we are ready to negotiate the

humanitarian corridors. which we are trying to get. and we are ready to negotiate always, but we are not ready to surrender. i >> wonder ambassador, is a ukrainian surrender the only thing that putin would accept. where do negotiations stand right now in the view of the french government, especially that last month before the war, macron traveled to meet with putin and i believe that he continues to speak with him on the phone? >> absolutely, thank you for having me and thank you for showing this very powerful address of president zelenskyy to the french parliament. and you will recall for instance the world war i, the trenches and for don when france was devastated by the invasion of the army of our neighbor. this was very powerful. and he also mentioned the fact that there is a very close coordination between himself and macron and this close coordination is what is essential when you mention the

talks between president macron and the russian president. those talks always happen in close coordination with the president of ukraine. with president zelenskyy. and the goal, exactly as my ukrainian colleague has said, is to at one point come to a cease-fire and second to a real decision. and it is a decision where it is not about ukraine surrendering as you said, but a real piece. which means in particular, as the deputy from ukrainian told you. obtaining guarantees for its own security and the respect of its sovereignty. >> yes. and yesterday, president biden said quote, that europe must and its dependence on russian fossil fuels. is that something that france agrees with? and is working to do? >> absolutely, and more than agreeing. france is holding the

presidency of the council of the eu during, -- we as the presidency have convene meetings of the european union. and this war, the comeback of war to europe, it years after world war ii has obliged you have to look at things quite differently. to transform itself, and one of these transformations is the decision to become independent. independent for in particular from energy supply coming from. russia and we are doing that. we've taken measures already. we want to be independent from supplies of energy coming from russia. president biden said yesterday in what is meant to be an ad lib remark. for god sakes that this man cannot remain in power. today the president said that he was not calling for a regime change. but is it the view of the french government that putin cannot remain in power?

>> as i have told you, we are discussing with the president. the russian president, in close coordination with president zelenskyy, one of the things that we address in the discussions and the reason why we of course do not use necessarily the same language. is that we have to address the humanitarian decision. and one of the points my president wants to talk during the next call with the russian president in close coordination with president zelenskyy and with the local authorities, is the dire situation of mariupol. we have launched and decided with the president of turkey and the prime minister of greece, to as much as possible, to make big efforts to allow the population of mariupol to escape from this hell, which the russian bombings have been causing. >> ambassador, tonight we are

discussing the struggle between democracy and autocracy. but is it possible to succeed when western democracies are struggling with democracy so badly themselves? we talk a lot on this show about america's many flaws and we will be talking a lot more about that in the next hour. but in france, you have one but not too far right candidates running for the presidency this year. our western democracies able to fight against liberal forces glow risky, given the rise of a livable forces in those democracies, including france? >> i like very much at the beginning of your show, the quotation of an american ambassador saying that if we fight for the democracy in the world, it is not because we think that democracies are perfect. and i think that is a very important point. and what is important also here in this reaction that we have against russian invasion of ukraine, it is our unity.

to be aware of our own challenges and to fight united when something as important as this issue now at stake with the brutal invasion of ukraine. that we are united. then we could see at the summit in brussels, the g7, and that meeting between president biden and the eu summit. that we are united and we have taken decisive measures. sanctions which we are increasing. help for ukraine. we are united in the essential steps to handle this crisis. and to address the war in ukraine waged by russia. >> ambassador philippe at cnn, thank you so much for your help tonight, appreciated. >> coming up, it is all well and good calling out autocracy when it comes to our enemies,

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traveled to warsaw poland to deliver a powerful speech in the events of sovereignty and democratic principles around the world. >> we must commit now to be in this fight for the long haul. and we must remain unified today and tomorrow and the day after and for the years and decades to come. it will not be easy and there will be costs. but it is a price that we have to pay, because the darkness that drives autocracy is no match for the flame of liberty that lights the souls of people everywhere. >> the presidents words were both compelling and necessary, there is no doubt about that. but it is who he did not mention that i want to focus on for a moment, because let's be honest, you cannot say that you are leading a fight against autocracy and in defense of

democracy, without also acknowledging that we the united states just also happened to be allied with some very unsavory, very undemocratic folks abroad and in fact, united states for decades now has been in bed with the saudis and the emiratis and the egyptians and the turks and the uzbeks and the kazakhs. i could go on and on. countries, regimes that consistently, more than test our tolerance for what we can excuse as morally ambiguous behavior. just two weeks ago saudi arabia held its largest mass execution in decades. even as it continues to bomb civilians in yemen, even more recently the uae welcomed syrian dictator assad. and now the argument has always been that although the u.s. government turns a blind eye to democracy among some of our allies, at least we need and get our support on issues that matter to us. that is the deal, that is the bargain, and yet ukraine shows that is not always the case either. that if you expected the saudis

or emiratis to follow the u.s. and condemning putin's illegal invasion, you would be wrong not only have they refused to denounce the war, they're also dodging biden's calls, something that the white house denies. nor are the saudis jumping up and down to fill the gap from sanctions on russian oil. and in short, we have a number of allies, who are not sticking to the bargain that we made with him in the first place. look, to be clear i am glad that president biden delivered his address in warsaw, we desperately need a vocal defender of democracy on the global stage right now. and i just wish that he would give that same speech in riyadh or cairo. next, our last democratic congressman about the house intelligence committee's demand for the u.s. government to declassify information about possible russian war crimes. russian war crimes.

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bipartisanship on capitol hill, all 23 members of the house intelligence committee called for president biden's director of national intelligence to declassify evidence of russian acts in ukraine that could amount to war crimes. i'm joined now by democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut. a member of the house intelligence committee. congressman, thank you for coming on the show tonight. on friday, as biden was meeting with the president of pull, and he said this, have a listen. >> the single most important thing that we can do on the

offset is to keep the democracies united in our opposition and our effort to curtail the devastation that is occurring at the hands of a man who quite frankly i think is a war criminal. and i think would meet the legal definition of that as well. >> now that the biden administration has officially labeled putin a war criminal and your committee has unanimously asked for evidence of putin's war crimes, will happens now, where does this go? >> the point of the letter, and thanks for having me on, was to make sure that the intelligence community, which has a view of events in ukraine, considerably more specific than the view then the media has, that they are cough and ultimately think of declassifying that information. for one reason that is very

important underappreciated mehdi as we look at the core. justice will be important here and accountability will be important. we should not argue whether vladimir putin is a war criminal, attacking a vulnerable country that does not provoke you is a war crime. every single day war crimes are committed and the intelligence community has a very specific look at that. the reason that is important, is because it is not just vladimir putin, it is officers in the russian military, who you may not have them on camera on msnbc, but are ordering their troops to commit war crimes. and it is important. it is important for the world, not just regimes like the russians, it is important for all militaries to know that if they are militaries at any level commit war crimes, that justice will eventually be served. and accountability will be hat. >> in terms of justice being served, in theory, it war crimes trial could take place at the international criminal court. but as you know, the united

states is not a party to the icc. last sunday at democrat -- who refused to say that america should now join the icc, you think there are other venues that could be used to try putin. but are we undermining ourselves on the global stage, saying that we need accountability and justice for putin, but we will not sign up like the rest of the world to the court that is supposed to be there to do that. >> i'm a believer that every nation should belong to the icc. the same way that every nation, pretty much every nation, belongs to the united nations general assembly. you know, we could deal with the on a case by case basis i. understand the counter arguments, kind of arguments of course are like countries that the united states have the ability to prosecute internally, when a soldier for example in the american army commits a war crime. we have the capability to actually prosecute and seek justice. so i do understand the counter arguments. but it would be the same for the world if everybody joined the icc. remember, it is not just dragging somebody before a court, it could also be the

officers that are suspected of war crimes never get to leave russia again. that is a pretty big deal. right, so there are a lot of ways for accountability. the point is, we cannot do that unless you ultimately declassify the event that are occurring as we speak. >> you mentioned a moment ago, attacking a vulnerable country as a war crime. that is exactly what the united states did to iraq. there is also the torture that happened under bush's watch. talk about, the last democratic president, said look forward, not back. was that a mistake? >> i think most of us now recognize that the decision to go into iraq was arguably the district strategic attached a fee from the state. we should not hold ourselves to be pure than other. the reality, if you look at any of our wars, you'll find if you go back to the vietnam massacre, we fall into real peril if we

believe that we are above committing crimes. in this way. and now i could make an argument that going in against saddam hussein, as much as i opposed, it is very different then attacking a democracy in the way that putin has done. but at the end of the day, that is not terribly fruitful an argument. i would make the argument that any country makes a terrible mistake if they hold themselves to being purer than other countries. the reality is, any country is capable of committing war crimes. when it happens, there should be accountability. >> quick last question before we run out of time, i have to ask, supreme court justice facing calls to recuse himself and resign. your colleague is saying that he should be impeached, where do you stand on that? should he not be held account for his wife trying to overturn elections, when he refused to recuse himself from cases involving that election? >> i certainly think, and again the facts are right now, that

he should have recused himself from the january 6th case. i'm not a lawyer, but you do not need to be a lawyer to know that that is true. look, i think this opens the door. and this won't make a lot of people happy, but this opens the door to a complex conversation. which is, dozen individuals spouses activity necessarily implicate the impartiality of the other spouse? and before we charge in, demanding impeachment, demanding recusal. i think we need to come to terms about what's our standard there is. >> i think we need to do that very soon. congressman, thank you for your time tonight, appreciate it. >> i am back with you now at the top of the hour, i'm mehdi hasan, and we continue our look at the global fight for democracy tonight. president joe biden is back in the u.s. tonight, back home from his trip to europe, where he met with nato leaders about doubling the alliances presence in eastern europe. as russia's war in ukraine shows no's line