shatter them. u.s. officials worry about the number of lives that could be lost. we will have alayna treene back soon. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. in the lead-up to the current crisis the united states and nato worked for months to engage russia to avert war. i met with them in person, talked to them many times on the phone. time and again we offered real diplomacy and concrete proposals to strengthen european security, enhance transparency, build confidence on all sides, but putin and russia met each of the proposals with disinterest in any negotiation, with lies and ultimatums. russia was bent on violence from the start. i know not all of you believe me and us when we kept saying they are going to cross the border,

they are going to attack. repeatedly he asserted we had no interest in war, guaranteed he would not move. repeatedly saying he would not invade ukraine, repeatedly saying russian troops along the border were there for training, all 180,000 of them. there's simply no justification or provocation for russia's choice of war. it is an example of one of the oldest human impulses, using brute force and disinformation to satisfy a craving for absolute power and control. it is nothing less than a direct challenge to the rule-based international order established since the end of world war ii and it threatens to return to decades of war that ravaged europe before the international rule-based order was put in

place. we cannot go back to that. we cannot. >> in 1963 john f. kennedy challenged soviet tyranny in europe by declaring all free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of berlin. in 1987 ronald reagan stood at brandenburg gate and demanded- gorbachev tear down this wall. a generation later the 46th president of the united states delivered his own stinging rebuke of russian barbarism and once again divided the world, as david rothcoff writes, between the forces of democracy and those of autocracy, between those who value freedom and those who fear it. in historic old warsaw, president biden again guaranteed that every inch of nato territory would be defended. reached out to the russian people. prayed for the plight of

millions of refugees and delivered what many consider to be the most important foreign policy speech of the 21st century. earlier in the day he castigated vladimir putin, calling him a butcher. then in his speech at the royal castle in warsaw, joe biden said the quiet part out loud. >> ukraine will never be a victim for russia, for free people refuse to live in a world of hopelessness and darkness. we will have a different future, brighter future, rooted in hope and light, decency and freedom of possibilities. for god's sake this man cannot remain in power. >> that his staff tried to walk his comments back had echos of the reaction to reagan's evil empire speech and his hot mic moment when the gipper joked during an audio check about

bombing russia. >> i have signed legislation that will outlaw russia forever. we begin bombing in five minutes. >> all right. joe biden's remarks were far more tame, but likely still put the kremlin on its heels. >> a lot more tame. >> which some argue is a good thing. >> it is a good thing. >> this morning we gauge the impact of biden's proclamations in poland. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, march 28th. a special day for me. it is my dad's birthday, really symbolic. we have former ambassador to russia, now director for the institute of international studies at stanford and nbc news international affairs analyst, michael mcfaul. author and columnist at "the daily beast" david rothcoff. retired navy admiral james stavridis, analyst for nbc news and msnbc. also with us in just a moment, u.s. national editor of

"financial times" ed luce. >> so, mr. ambassador, let's talk about the speech, the historic nature of the speech. and, yes, yes, the ad libbed lines which actually as far as psy ops goes the important. is it not nice for once vladimir putin defining the debate and keeping us guessing, but instead it is vladimir putin wondering whether he has to sleep with one eye open. >> first, joe, i thought it was a fantastic speech. it was a very important speech. it laid out the difference between democracy and dictatorship, between good and evil. he was clear as day where he stood and where the western world needed to stand. i hope it will be followed up with more action. that's what kyiv wants. that's what president zelenskyy wants. but i think it was a very

historic speech and the right speech. the last part, i would say a couple of things. first of all, it is not the first time president biden has said this. i traveled with him in moscow when he was the vice president, and in march of 2011 he said president putin, prime minister putin back then, should not run for a third term. he said it back then. this is nothing new. >> no. >> and he spoke out loud when i think hundreds of millions of people around the world, including, by the way, millions of russians, also think. third, let's be very clear, people jump from he should not remain in power to saying that he called for regime change? that is not true. he did not say we should have a regime change. he said this one person should not remain in power, and most certainly he wasn't changing superintendent policy by advocating a policy of regime change. all in all, you know, it wasn't in his speech, he is known to do this, sometimes saying these things has a purpose as you just rightly pointed out when ronald reagan called the soviet union

the evil empire back in 1983 and everybody said, "oh, my goodness, this is shocking what he said." now we all remember that as a very clear statement of the truth back then. >> and it sent a very strong message, admiral stavridis, to dissidents in russia. you heard after the fall of the soviet union, you heard dissidents say when reagan and other western leaders would say something like that it shouldn't a strong message. by the way as far as joe biden saying something like this you don't have to go back to 2011 or 2012, he said it at the end of his state of the union address and it was clearly planned as he is walking away from the mic he says, "let's go get him." a clear psy ops message to vladimir putin. >> joe, first and foremost, as you point out, there are different audiences here. you are absolutely right.

there's a russian audience, which, let's face it, is kind of split between those who support putin but many -- and their numbers are growing -- who do not support putin. so i think that's a strong part of this. secondly, it is the europeans who come away reassured. it will be an immense reassurance to our allies. finally, i think it was a good explanatory speech to the american public, one that soared into the rhetoric of why this matters, hope and light, democracy. i think he laid it out strongly and he delivered it strongly. and then, finally, when i think back on this speech i'm not going to be thinking about, you know, did he call for regime change or not. i think mike mcfaul describes that one very well. to me this speech is called "the

sacred obligation" speech. he talked about our sacred obligation to nato, and it will also be the don't-even-think-about-it speech. kind of the american vernacular, don't even think about it vladimir. i think a strong speech delivered in context in warsaw, a city destroyed in the second world war and rebuilt. we don't want that again. i think it was a strong speech and sent the right messages. >> david, you wrote some beautiful words about this speech afterwards, but the clear lines that it drew. it is so interesting though. a lot of the bad-faith actors on the trump right who have been criticizing joe biden for being too weak now criticizing joe biden for being too strong and really revealed themselves after that speech for just how pathetic and how unamerican they are in attacking the american president in a time like this.

let's talk about, though, your reaction to it and how you believe that joe biden finally did divide the world again against democracy against the forces of autocracy. >> joe biden has been speaking since the campaign about a world divided between the forces of democracy and the forces of autocracy, and, of course, what we've seen in ukraine is a flare-up in that conflict. i think it was extremely important that he went right up to the edge of the dividing line that now sits across europe and he said, we're going to stand up to this, we are going to fight for this, we have going to support ukraine, we are not going to be cowed. you know, past administrations have been hesitant to stand up to putin. he was not hesitant to stand up to putin. i think the message of the speech from beginning to end was of strength, and i also think

that it was a speech that resonated not just in the context of ukraine but in the context of a shift. the united states and europe and our allies are looking at russia in terms of a long-term threat. they're not going to be satisfied simply to end this war, hopefully to win this war, but they're going to require that russia stays where it is, that it stops its talk of aggression. and i think, finally as to your first point about the incredible hypocrisy of the republicans who have taken both sides of this issue, as they had so many others, that, you know, this dividing line between autocracy and democracy is not a remote foreign issue. we are fighting that war right here, right now with people -- >> that's right. >> -- like donald trump and others in his party seeking to undermine american democracy and embrace hallmarks of

authoritarian governments. so historical speech. strong and significant resonance both at home and abroad. >> all over the world. >> all around the world. yeah, many of the trumpists are actually having their words played on russian television to, again, try to inspire the russian people to keep killing more ukrainians. >> now, but -- >> it is not a good look. >> no, it is not. >> mika, especially when many of the same people were the ones in the trumpist wing of the republican party who celebrated ronald reagan's evil empire speech, who celebrated ronald reagan joking and saying bombing would begin in five minutes. again, it is hypocrisy. they're not concerned about what is best for american, they're not concerned about what is best for democracy, they're not concerned about what is best for western civilization. they just want joe biden to fail

or any democrat to fail. >> there's no time for that. >> you wonder how twisted somebody's world view would be when we are in the middle of the most critical foreign policy challenge since the end of world war ii. >> yeah. >> i don't know how you do it. >> i usually try to take a look at how other networks are covering. right now i can't even be bothered by that, there's so much at stake and there's no time for this silly season, for this behavior. quite frankly, it is a behavior passed on by donald trump. president biden's visit to poland was an historic book end to his four-day trip to europe. he began by meeting with the troops from the army's 82nd airborne division stationed near poland's border near ukraine, helping to bolster nato's eastern flank. he took a lot of selfies and decided to sit down spontaneously and have pizza with the troops. they loved it. the president also met with ukrainians at a warsaw stadium which had been converted into a refugee center.

it goss a little chaotic because people were so happy to see him, many in tears. many ukrainians are fled to poland in the last months. the president tweeted you don't need to speak the same language to feel the roller coaster of emotions in their eyes. he said, quote, i'm confident vladimir putin was confident in dividing nato but i hasn't been able to do it. we all stayed together. biden capped his trip with a forceful speech, denouncing putin's invasion of ukraine. speaking in front of a crowd that includes ukrainian refugees, the president framed the war as a fight for democracy and urged western countries to brace for the road ahead. >> in the perennial struggle for democracy and freedom, ukraine and its people are on the front

lines fighting to save their nation, and their brave resistance is part of a larger fight for an essential democratic principles that unite all free people. my message to the people of ukraine is a message i deliver to ukraine's foreign minister and defense minister, who i believe are here tonight, we stand with you, period. don't even think about moving on one single inch of nato territory. we have sacred obligation. we have a sacred obligation under article five to defend each and every inch of nato territory with the full force of our collective power. >> so, ambassador mcfaul, i want to again just follow up with what the president said there but also admiral stavridis said this was his

don't-even-think-about-it speech. which, again, after vladimir putin threatening war three or four weeks, after tv mouth pieces on russian television threatening nuclear war, after -- who else? ambassadors, diplomats from russia threatening nuclear war if we do everything -- and their mistake was they took it down to even economic sanctions. this is joe biden saying, you know what? enough of your threats. don't even think about this. we've drawn a line. and to the people of ukraine, we stand with you, period, full stop. it was a strong message and a real shove, push back to vladimir putin. i want to ask you, how important is that speech now to the people of ukraine? how important will it be in years to come? how will we look back on this speech if ukraine ultimately prevails in this war? >> well, that's a big if. that is the key if.

if they prevail this speech will be considered historic. if they don't and if we don't do enough to help them, the speech will not be remembered. i think that's the key thing. i agree rhetorically it was a great speech, explained the narrative. i completely agree with david. it was the best explanation of what the stakes are that we've heard from the president so far. i also agree with admiral stavridis, not one inch, don't touch nato. that statement also needed to be made. but the other phrase i think was very important is he started by quoting pope john paul ii when he first came to poland, communist poland. he said, be not afraid. that i think was a message to our allies, but i think it was also a message to us because all of this nuclear rattle, you know, sabre rattling and we have to be afraid of escalation from vladimir putin, that was not a position of strength in my view. that was them overstating things

to make us afraid to do things to help the ukrainians. i think the president laid it out very clearly that we are not afraid, that we are strong, and now we have to follow up that rhetoric with concrete action. the concrete action that president zelenskyy keeps calling for, more weapons and more sanctions. >> well, admiral, i want to ask you that. president zelenskyy asked for more planes, more tanks, anti-missile weapons, anti-ship weapons. how critical is it that, well, making a big announcement without like discussing it on the front page of "the new york times," "the washington post," the "wall street journal", "the financial times," how important is it to get those weapons into the hands of the ukrainian fighters? >> it is the absolute center of gravity of this fight. it is the will of the ukrainians to resist, and it is personified, of course, by president zelenskyy. we ought to be listening and, frankly, again we have kind of

pulled out all of the churchill references but i will pull out one more, which is churchill in the run-up to world war ii saying to roosevelt, give us the tools, we will finish the job. i think at the end of the day putting those weapons in the hands of the ukrainians across the spectrum of violence is crucial. second and final point on this, joe, it is not just about what we do in ukraine, to ambassador mcfaul's excellent point, it is also what is nato doing. and, oh, by the way, we just added battle groups in all of the nations on the south flank of russia. we already have battle groups to the north. they're not there to invade russia. russia knows that. we know that. they're defensive. it is a defensive alliance, but we overmatch russia in conventional forces by overwhelming numbers. nato needs to continue to push its forces forward, and we need

to collectively put the tools that president zelenskyy and his brave fighters need in their hands. >> ed luce, as a historian, i want your takeaway on the president's speech and the words that are so controversial. i feel like spending an afternoon with those refugees and with the troops would steel him for every word that he said in that speech. >> yeah, i would agree with the consensus. this has the makings potentially of an historic speech, depending, as mike mcfaul says, whether it is upheld in practice in the coming weeks. you know, i think the comment about wishing putin would go is a little bit of a storm in a teacup. it is clearly what biden wishes. it is what we all wish. it is what macron wishes. it is what all western counterparts to biden wish. some confusion as to whether that would become nato's

official war aim. i think pretty strenuously corrected by the white house. people give a little bit of slack to biden for saying what he thinks sometimes at inopportune moments. i think this is probably overblown. what is most interesting to me about words coming from the region at the moment is what zelenskyy is saying, and zelenskyy is asking for as many weapons as possible. he wants all kinds of weapons, all kind of anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft missiles, he wants more and he wants them quickly. with the exception of hungary, every single neighbor on the western side is a conduit for these weapons, so that will be the test of the rhetoric of biden's speech, is do those munitions come in now at a flow and at the pace that zelenskyy needs. and zelenskyy has given a couple

of interviews in the last -- over the weekend, one of which to a bunch of russian journalists which, of course, has been banned in russia and another to "the economist" in which he has made -- he has been very explicit about splits within the west or difference of emphasis within the west. very critical of germany for continuing to want to buy russian energy and of france. macron, he said, is afraid to send tanks into ukraine and then others like britain, poland and the baltics he is saying are stepping up. but i suppose that's important because if zelenskyy is now beginning to call out differences within the western alliance and biden's words produce different reactions in the western alliance, that we do have to pay attention to keeping unity in the western alliance. i think that's going to become an issue in the coming days,

that there are some sort of frances and germanys that are beginning to hang back a little bit. >> so, joe, i just -- we were watching the speech together, of course, and i wonder if some administrations who are very quick to regroup on that off-the-cuff remark might have wanted to wait a beat and just say it is what the president felt, because i think the walk back is the weakness. it is what the president felt. >> again, i just say for everybody that's been criticizing, first of all -- >> oh, please. >> criticizing the president for saying it and then criticizing the staff for walking it back, grow up. this is what we can deal with. david, i'm sure you agree with me. creative ambiguity is a really good thing right now. >> i see. >> because we've been hearing lavrov say something and the west races after those remarks, and then three hours later putin

will say something harder. well, what are they saying? what are they meaning? you know, we've been out front saying exactly what we're for, what we're doing, what's going on. i'm not just saying this. listen, i said it when reagan was president. i like the creative ambiguity. i like a president that goes out and calls the soviet union an evil empire. i know the state department freaked out at the time, the diplomatic corps freaked out at the time. that's fine. creative ambiguity. keep them guessing. david, your thoughts? >> vladimir putin is a serial war criminal who is committing as we speak crimes against humanity. he's levelled an entire innocent neighbor. he did the same thing in syria. he did the same thing in chechnya. i don't think we should be that concerned with hurting his feelings.

i think this is a time to, you know, call him what he is and let him know that this is not a moment in the west where there is a lack of resolve or unity. ed's point is an important one, but i think the administration has done a great job keeping the west together. i think there's been a lot of support in nato, within the eu. i think that that is going to continue, but i do agree with mike's point. president zelenskyy is right. it is essential that we don't just have strong words and that every morning the leaders within the western alliance wake up and say, "what else can we do for ukraine today" because we are at a moment that we didn't think was possible a month ago, where ukraine could push russia back, where ukraine can achieve real victories. i think it is absolutely right. let's give them the tools to do

that. >> and every single morning you are exactly right. that's what leaders across the west need to be asking themselves the first moment where they wake up and are conscious. you know, a couple of weeks ago it wasn't the right time to say what joe biden said. a few weeks ago we were still talking about off ramps. we have seen what has happened in mariupol. we have seen what has happened at children's hospitals. we have seen what has happened across ukraine. he is a war criminal. >> butcher. >> if the president feels like saying the truth to the world, let him say the truth to the world. we will let the state department and others try to clean things up in negotiations. but, admiral, i want to go to you. i mean all of these frail snowflakes who are freaking out over nine words or however many words there were, oh, he should have never said it, and then the follow ups freaking out over the state department doing what state department does. >> uh-huh. >> i would be concerned if we had people in the state department saying, yeah, let's go after him.

you want -- i'm sorry, i want that creative ambiguity. i want a president who is speaking from his heart, who is speaking for the american people, and i want the state department giving us a little bit of latitude. i'm curious, what are your thoughts about the give and take, the creative ambiguity we saw on saturday and sunday? >> i think it is an absolutely correct technique for this moment in time. by the way, strategic ambiguity, that phrase comes from something that has lasted for decades, and that's the way we thought about taiwan in the context of china. look, vladimir putin knows we are not interested in rolling nato tanks into moscow and changing the regime. that's just a faux conversation. in my view, open the book of history and you can find the pages where russian and soviet

tanks rolled west. you cannot find in that book of history nato tanks rolling into russia. frankly, the way to think about this is we are a strong alliance, a defensive alliance, but we are not going to back down in the face of this kind of activity and this kind of attack on democracy. i think, again, this is a good moment to send a shot across the bow of vladimir putin. by the way, final thought, context here, what happened right before the speech, by the way? putin launching missiles to western ukraine just a few hundred clicks from where our president was hours before and toward the country where he was. miscalculation, no. deliberate signal, yes. naval term, shot across the bow. answered by president biden.

>> answered by president biden. again, showing just how bad vladimir putin is at this, by firing those missiles towards lviv, by putting them so close to where the president gave his speech only makes his speech more historic, vlad. it only makes his words more vital. it only makes it more necessary. so, once again, a colossal miscalculation. this guy, like after the war is over he needs to see if zelenskyy has, like, a pr firm and he needs to hire them because everything he is doing, he is playing right into the ukrainian's hands, playing right into the west's hands. ambassador mcfaul, just historically really quickly, i want to follow up with what the admiral said because all of this nonsense, all of these western lackies, all of these useful idiots that are saying, oh,

putin, it is our fault, we have hemmed putin in because of nato, this, that and the other, and they're afraid we're going to invade them. the invasions out of russia only go one way. he's been invading, you know, putin has been invading, stalin invaded. you know, the soviets went into hungary in '68, czechoslovakia in '56. of course, they went into afghanistan. yeah, over the past century the invasions have all gone one way toward the west, other than hitler in '41. so suggesting that the united states or nato, the nato alliance wants to go into russia, it is absolute nonsense. they're the aggressors, as always. they are the invaders, as always. as dr. brzezinski, you know, always wrote, yes, they're paranoid but the question is why are they paranoid, because for

300, 400 years the invasions have all been going outward toward the center of moscow. >> well, except for napoleon and hitler, you are right about that. >> right. >> but those were dictatorships and let's be clear about that. what threatens putin is democracy. president biden does threaten putin because president biden and every other democratically elected leader has an alternative argument for their legitimacy. i really commend for everybody, listen to president zelenskyy's talk with the four russian journalists, i just listened to it a few hours ago. it is 90 minutes. it is long. they've now added sub titles, but he explains very articulately that the threat to putin is not nato expansion but democracy's expansion and that's why he invaded ukraine. in a sense when biden sets out the argument it is a fight between autocracies and democracies by the very

existence of democratic societies, democratic governments and democratic ideas, those do threaten putin, and that's why we have to support the democratically elected leader of ukraine, president zelenskyy, and that free society against the autocratic society seeking to repress it. >> you know, in his latest editorial entitled "the president we have," the "wall street journal" editorial board writes this. mr. biden would also be wise to bring some high-profile conservatives and republicans into his administration. in 1940, as the prospect of world war approached, fdr brought in experienced gop internationalallists, henry sten son as secretary of war and frank knot as secretary of the navy. they built credibility with the public and on capitol hill for the hard choices to come. harry truman worked with gop senator arthur vandenberg to build support for nato at the dawn of the cold war.

jimmy carter at least had the hawkist bringing brzezinski as his national security advisor when they tried to exploit president carter's weakness. mr. biden desperately needs to diversify the advice he gets beyond the liberal internationalists who dominate his councils. better advice is needed because mr. bider is right that the russia president won't go away. it is my father's birthday and thinking about him a lot. my father, as you know, joe, educated me about democracy, but you also know it was his incredible strategic mind that really intimidated me intellectually. over the past few months i hear his voice in both of my brothers for the first time. i talk to them all the time now. mark, who is serving as ambassador to poland right now. ian, who worked for president

bush, he is the republican, they have very different points of view on many things and even on this war. but when i talk to mark and ian all the time now, they both have absolutely stepped into this space. i hear him, i hear our family debates even, i hear his voice, and it is very calming and it is wonderful. i hear him in the clearest way since the day he died. ed, you have been writing a book about my father, his entire life and his world view, and you have been talking to my brothers as well. i am wondering if you have any thoughts to offer? >> yeah, well, i mean i couldn't add to your memory, your extraordinary memories of your dad. i know that he subjected you and your brothers to pretty stren strenuous debates when you were children about geopolitics so it is in your blood.

i was struck when president biden in warsaw over the weekend turns to poland's president and says, we brought you a brzezinski, we brought you the best. the fact there's a brzezinski in poland right now is an extraordinary turn of history. he is having a baptism of fire as an ambassador, and there couldn't be anybody better qualified in terms of being a polish speaker, of having lived in poland and with the brzezinski name in poland right now because the brzezinski name is another expression of the message in the speech that biden gave. i don't speak ill of fellow newspapers, but i have to say i thought the "wall street journal" saying republicans should be brought into the administration, well, we would have to narrow it down because which republicans? >> right. >> how many republicans are there available who have not

backed putin and who have not backed trump's relationship with putin and his attempt to undermine democracy in ukraine and his extraordinary sort of conspiratorial admiring relationship? if you want a split screen, biden speaking in warsaw this weekend should have trump in helsinki accepting putin's explanation that russia didn't interfere in the 2016 elections. that's the split screen. just a final point, the "wall street journal" mentioned your father quite rightly as a great asset for president carter but he was a democrat, not a republican. >> yes. no, but he spoke his mind and often surrounded himself with people who disagreed with him for that very reason that the "wall street journal" was talking about. there are republicans who could be very useful. i know -- i understand, ed, what has happened over the past four years, but, you know, i speak to

my brother about what is going on in poland, joe. but when i wasn't to be forced to think i call ian because he really makes me think and he's got a different angle toward this and they're both valuable. >> you know, i listen to both of them and actually they actually are a good synthesis of, if you read your father's writings, where your father would be. >> yeah. >> but, admiral stavridis, i too, while i'm grateful for the "wall street journal" editorial page saying nice things about dr. brzezinski, i am not exactly sure how this war will end but i do know how history is going to look at what joe biden has done and i think he has been very masterful. i was hypercritical of afghanistan. i have been very critical of many of his domestic policies, but i will tell you, and i'm curious and you know more about this than i do, but joe biden

has taken his time when he has needed to, to pull the country with him, to pull our alliance together at the same time. he did not get in front of the germans. he did not get in front of the french. i believe he has played it masterfully. he hasn't gone as quickly as the "wall street journal" editorial board or others would have liked, but we still have an alliance together with about 30 different countries that want to do 30 different things. that doesn't happen by accident. >> indeed, joe. very quickly, two republicans, how about bob gates or how about condi rice, both of whom have ph.d.s in russian studies, current in every way, brilliant strategic thinkers. that would be the top of my list. break, break. the nato alliance, as you say, it is kind of like 30 people on a bicycle, and generally speaking a few people are up at the front pedaling really fast,

there's some people in the middle kind of going along, there's a few people in the back not pedaling although they're still drafting. this is not that case and i give credit to tony blinken and his team and jake sullivan and his team. they've been on foot patrol throughout europe for months pulling this together. by the way, joe, it is not just those 30. back to the theme of vladimir putin's head exploding because he is going to get what he doesn't want, how do you like the idea of sweden and finland joining nato, becoming more real by the moment. >> yeah. >> last thought, germany. if you told me when i was supreme allied commander they would add 100 billion euros to their defense budget, effectively doubling it, i would have fallen over on my face. remarkable. it is paralleled across the european continent. i think strong response is here. vladimir putin has created that. if there's a silver lining to this, it is the alliance's

unity. >> by the way, admiral, one thing that condi rice and bob gates have in common along with madeleine albright and so many others, they worked for dr. brzezinski in the carter white house. he did believe in surrounding himself with people with differing views, so thank you so much. >> ambassador michael mcfaul, david rothkopf and ed luce, thank you for being with us. ahead on "morning joe," clint watts joins us to break down moves by the russian army amid reports that putin is shifting the focus of his forces. that is big news. plus, while president biden is calling out autocrats former president trump is praising them again. whoa. hollywood's biggest night gets chaotic with a slap that stole the show. >> come on, man. >> with everything that's going

on in the world? >> come on, man. >> good lord. >> so i saw highlights. will smith just wheels back and like -- >> yeah. >> -- pounds chris rock. afterwards everybody is going up to will smith going, you all all right, man? >> yeah, got the wrong person. we'll get into that later. you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. frank is a fan of fast. he's a fast talker. a fast walker. thanks, gary.

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♪♪ russia's invasion of ukraine has stall it on multiple fronts. it is aimed to quickly encircle kyiv has faltered against ukrainian resistance. russia's defense ministry says the focus of the operation is now shifting away from the capital and into the eastern part of ukraine. that's where russia-backed separatists have been fighting for eight years. starting today schools in kyiv

will reopen online, in part to provide psychological support and to distract children from the war, to keep going. in a possible shift in strategy, moscow says it will focus its invasion on ukraine on liberating the east. the russian defense ministry said on friday the first stage of its operation was largely complete. some observers say the new change could reflect putin's acknowledgement that his plan to swiftly capture major cities has failed. joining us now notional security analyst for nbc news and msnbc, clint watts. clint, just first of all the shift in strategy, the change in plans, however you want to describe it, that doesn't seem like a good sign if you are trying to run a war against another country. >> it is definitely not, mika. i think a few key things in and around kyiv. they've essentially pulled out a

lot of forces in northwest kyiv and trying to reorganize up near the russian border in chernobyl. on the eastern side of kyiv you see a bavarian area they took a couple of weeks ago, again losing ground to ukrainian offenses. the ukrainian military at time has taken ground back, losing in others. and then mariupol, that has been the story over the last week, the siege of mariupol continues. you see russia really focusing there because they need to take that city so they can relieve combat power. the last part i would known is in the south kherson was a place we talked about in week one and two taken by the russians. now again they find resistance from ukrainian protesters essentially in the rear area. they can't secure it. across all of these areas, even if russia has moved forward, they cannot secure. if they cannot secure they cannot go after the places like kyiv or odesa.

>> yeah, you know, clint, what is so shocking is as you look at this map, i think we were all pretty confident that there would be a pitched battle for kyiv for weeks, but certainly that as you went along the eastern border of ukraine that the russians would be quickly russians would be do mop-up operations. you see one contested border after another. it is shocking that the russians have had trouble nailing down land masses next to their own borders. >> that's right, joe. this is the problem with their strategy from the beginning, a failed strategy where they had to topple kyiv in a week, which was always somewhat ludicrous. now they have troops spread out on so many different fronts they can't hold one area in a solidified way, particularly in the east. what you see them doing is continuing to move forward,

taking massive losses. some of the footage i watched from the weekend russian tank units basically destroyed, vehicles abandoned. you are hearing essentially about troop resistance going up against commanders on the russian side. so i'm not even confident they can advance at all. i wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the background in russia putin is thinking, i need to secure whatever gains i can get because if i don't do it now i might be pushed back on all fronts. i think the east and the south around mariupol is really where they're focusing all of their efforts at the moment. >> all right. clint watts, thank you very much for your insight this morning. coming up, if saying vladimir putin cannot remain in power is a problem, what do you call donald trump repeatedly calling putin smart? we'll talk about that. a note before going to break, the 2022 "forbes" 50 over 50 nominations are open for submissions but the deadline is fast approaching. it is this week. submissions close at midnight

eastern this sunday. go to forbes.com or knowyourvalue.com to nominatewoman finding great success and having impact well after the age of 50. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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54 past the hour. nearly a year since the pandemic safe ceremony of 2021. the expected and unexpected moments of the oscars were back in full swing last night. >> wow. tell me about it. >> excuse the pun. just ask chris rock. >> jeida, i love you. "gi jane 2" can't wait to see it. that was a nice one. okay. i'm out here -- uh-oh.

richard. oh, wow! wow. will smith just smacked the [ bleep ] out of me. >> keep my wife's name out your mouth. >> wow, dude. >> yes! >> it was a "gi jane" joke. >> keep my wife's name out your [ bleep ] mouth! >> i'm going to. okay. >> will smith jumped on stage after a comedian made a joke about jada pinkett smith's appearance. she shaves her head due to alopecia. she looks beautiful. >> talks about it all the time. >> talks about it and owns it, loves it. moments later smith won his first oscar, awarded for best oscar in a leading role for his portrayal of richard williams, and apologized for the earlier incident. >> i'm being called on in my

life to love people and to protect people and to be a river to my people. i want to apologize to the academy. i want to apologize to all of my fellow nominees. >> but did he apologize to chris rock? >> no. not only did he not apologize to chris rock in that moment, because he assaulted him, and here is the thing. after we saw all of these clips and stories about people going up to offer will smith support, who is offering chris rock support? chris rock told a joke and that's what has happened in these ceremonies for decades, and he is telling a joke and it is tough enough being a comedian as it is, being up on stage. >> that was awful. that was --

>> and he has -- look at that. he has to keep going. he is hit on stage for telling a joke, and chris rock has to keep going. everybody goes up to will smith, you okay, you okay? no, i think they have that backwards. they need to go up to chris rock, ask chris rock is he okay. >> more about this ahead. >> you know, hollywood is a screwed up place, i guess because will smith is a big star everybody says, hey, you okay, man. no, no, no, he is not okay. it is obvious he's not okay. >> the joke was not that bad. >> and it is also obvious the community needs to put their arms around chris rock and see if he is okay. >> yeah. and with everything going on in the world, seriously? >> come on. >> we will talk about this more. still ahead -- >> i doubt we will talk about this more, but that's ridiculous. >> not that much. but we will dive deeper into

president biden's historic speech from poland. plus, ukrainian fighters have exceeded expectations and we have new reporting on how they're exploiting weaknesses in the russian army. we will be right back. vo: here we are again. an overseas conflict hikes up our gas prices. and oil ceos rake in record profits. it will keep happening. until we break free from oil. right now, we need congress to ramp up production of clean, renewable energy sources. energy that doesn't run out, so it costs families less. energy that's made here in america. energy that can't be manipulated by erratic dictators across the globe. because real energy independence is built on clean energy. ♪ ♪ ♪

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over the last 30 years the forces of autocracy have revived all across the globe. its hallmarks are familiar ones, contempt for the rule of law, contempt for democratic freedom, contempt for the truth itself. today russia has strangled democracy. putin has the gall to say he's de-nazifying ukraine. it is a lie. it is cynical. he knows that. it is also obscene. don't even think about moving on one single inch of nato territory. we have sacred obligation.

we have a sacred obligation under article five to defend each and every inch of nato territory with the full force of our collective power. >> i love that line, mika. don't even think about moving on a single solitary inch of nato soil. we have, the president of the united states says to all of his nato allies, we have a sacred obligation. >> president biden capping his trip to europe with a forceful speech in poland, denouncing putin's invasion of ukraine, casting it as a critical moment in the fight to protect democracy and to defeat autocracy. welcome back to "morning joe." it is the top of the hour, one minute past. monday, march 28th. let's bring in u.s. special correspondent for bbc news katty kay. president of the council on

foreign relations richard haass. msnbc contributor, mike barnicle. professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson. it is great to have you all on board this hour. >> walter, you are a history professor. talk about -- at the top of the show we talked about jfk saying that all free men were citizens of berlin, all free people. ronald reagan at the brandenburg gate saying, mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. this was historic in the 21st century and it wasn't in berlin, no. it has moved east. now it is in warsaw. what great news for the people of warsaw who were first absolutely destroyed by hitler and then abused by stalin for so many years. >> you are getting the world divided, as biden said, into two

parts for those who are freedom love. unlike tear down this wall, the iron curtain is descending. there was a wonderful book written about the tear-down-this-wall line and richard haass was there, it was very much discussed before it was put into the speech and debated. of course, joe biden does what joe biden does, just blurt out what he believes and it is the truth. i think it was a good moral statement. we don't do regime change, it is up to the russians to do it, but he is right to express a moral sentiment that given the world we live in today, given what russia did, good lord, this guy cannot stay in power. everybody is calling it a gaffe, but typical of what is called a gaffe when someone blurts out a truth, but i think it was a

moment of moral clarity. >> i said to richard haass this weekend that creative am big yuity is a good thing, especially when you are vladimir putin keeping the united states guessing over the past three, four weeks. i think it is time to change the dynamics. richard, i know you disagree with that. let me just say in defense of those in the state department who have been going behind, clarifying, again, that creates a creative ambiguity like we've had in taiwan for some time. i personally, i think it is a very good thing. you don't. explain why. >> joe, i think everything we say, everything we do at this point ought to be measured against two yardsticks. one, does it end this war as soon as possible on terms the ukrainian government can accept? two, does it discourage russia, does it make it less likely that russia escalates, be it by spreading the war to nato, by using cyberattacks, by using chemical or, god forbid, nuclear

weapons? my concern with the speech, my concern with the line at the end is that i think it works against that. what it has done is in some ways taken what has been up to now a disciplined, limited war, and in some ways made it existential for putin. i don't want him to think he has nothing to lose by escalating against nato or by using chemical or nuclear weapons. i want him to feel that he does have a lot to lose. i want us still to be able to negotiate with him to bring this war to an end, again, on terms president zelenskyy can accept. so i think the president went too far. let me just say why the reagan parallel doesn't work here. tear down this wall, that was a policy push. this is something much more fundamental and existential against putin and against the nature of a totalitarian system. second of all, this statement was made by president biden in the middle of a hot war in a country bordering on four nato

countries. most important, miguel gorbachev is not the head of russia now. what we have instead is someone much darker, much more evil who is essentially unconstrained. this is a far, far more dangerous situation. i simply don't understand why we would want to escalate it, particularly at a point as you discussed earlier where we're beginning to see some signals that the russians know they overreached, they may be trying to redefine success, not in ways that would be acceptable to us or ukraine, but in a more limited way. the goal of the u.s. policy at this point ought to be to win the war, prevent escalation down the road, yes, then we can work to see that russia changes either its politics or its leadership. this man is destroying his own country as well as ukraine. >> you know, richard, you and i usually agree on almost everything. i couldn't disagree with you more on every point. we will get back to that.

but it is almost agency much of a divide as when we talk red tox and yankees, but we'll get back to you on that as well. mike barnicle, i have found my biggest criticism of joe biden over the past three weeks is that it is almost like international relations are imitating domestic relations. republicans play for the kill. i say that as a former republican. and when i campaigned i didn't play by marques of queensbury rules. i played cleanly but played to win. i have been criticizing democrats of playing by marques of queensbury rules. they act so shocked. there are boundaries. why, when we go low, blah, blah, blah. no, you have to win and you have

to let the other side know you're not scared of them. the fact that joe biden didn't play by marques of queensbury rules, the fact he gave a scripted state of the union speech and as he turned to give the speech to nancy pelosi and others he said, let's go get him, he did it on purpose. people who are saying it is a mistake are fools. after the speech, near the end of the speech he says this as well. joe biden has been doing this longer than most people criticizing him have been alive. it is psy ops, he is letting vladimir putin know we're not playing in between the lines. i think most americans agree with him, putin is a butcher and putin shouldn't stay in power later on. the state department did their job cleaning it up, we understand, but we have to be grown up enough to have a little bit of creative ambiguity and that's exactly where biden has putin right now, guessing, finally. >> well, you know, joe, richard

is right here and i respectfully disagree with richard on this as well. but joe biden has been at this for a long time and he has been thinking about vladimir putin for a long time. i am told by a couple of different people who are very reliable and quite close to the west wing and to the president of the united states that that was not an ad lib. those nine words were not just dropped in off the top of his head. he has been thinking about this for sometime. he has been thinking about it all through 2013 when vladimir putin helped syria drop chemical weapons on its own people, 2014 when the russians invaded chechnya, and what happened to vladimir putin during that time? nothing. he skated. i think it has always stuck in joe biden's craw that vladimir putin seems to think he can get away with anything that he wants to whenever he wants to. i think this is not only a message to vladimir putin, i think it was a message to the people around vladimir putin who

might be getting kind of shaky given the offensive production of the russian army right now. so there was a lot going on here in that speech, but it was a speech given by a strong president of the united states with a very strong message that western europe, nato and the united states is determined, determined to win this war on behalf of ukraine and on behalf of liberty and freedom throughout the world. >> so let's circle back to richard haass. i want you to defend yourself, but i want to question you as well because in your comments you said, you know, we want to still be able to negotiate with him. i'm not sure it is very healthy negotiating with a butcher, with someone who is doing what he is doing in ukraine at this moment. if you take a look at mariupol, how are you negotiating with this person? aren't we sort of past that? and in terms of the threat of

nukes, that's mutually assured destruction. that's a choice. that's a choice that we can't control. isn't it true, as joe biden said, that vladimir putin is no longer feasible anymore as a leader on the world stage? >> don rumsfeld once said you go to war with the army you've got, not the army you want. you have to negotiate with the adversaries you have, not the adversaries you want. or to quote someone else, rabin said you make peace with your enemies, not with your friends. we want this war to stay limited. you and i both want that. we want ukraine to stop getting pummelled by these russian missiles being shot off with great frequency. the only guy that can stop the war is the guy though started it, vladimir putin. whether there's formal or informal negotiation, we have to assume the war terminates or winds down if he says so. down the road.

>> katty kay. >> i would love to see alternative leadership, but at the moment we have to assume we can only end the war on his watch. >> katty, jump in. >> there's been a lot of debate about nine words and, i agree, largely it is a storm in the teacup. we know where the u.s. position is. it wasn't helpful to the extent we want to keep the focus on getting russian troops out of ukraine. more broadly it wasn't helpful because there are potential splits as volodymyr zelenskyy recognized himself over the weekend in an interview with "the economist" and the nato members and you want to do everything you can to make it possible for nato to stay together and not allow splits to emerge in the group. obviously what zelenskyy needs now, walter, is more troops. he needs action now. he's not engaged and focused on the esoterics of words and what they might mean in a historical context because he is fighting a real hot war with an enormous

amount of urgency. if he doesn't get these weapons from the west in the next week or two he may not have a war to fight anymore. >> yeah, well, that may be true, but let me say too i think he has shown a good willingness to try to keep negotiations alive, and that interview he gave to the four russian journalists laid ground work which is, of course, in the end ukraine could remain a neutral party which is one of russia's goals. you don't have to settle everything. you can get a cease-fire and say we're just going to recognize the realities on the ground. what i think zelenskyy is doing brilliantly is rallying his people, rallying his troops, helping fight the russians, but also showing that he can be realistic in looking for a settlement to this. because if, katty, you keep giving weapons -- i agree we

should -- if this war goes on two, three, four years, it destroys ukraine, it destroys the world economy, it destroys russia, but it is also bad here. i would really back zelenskyy not just militarily but in his diplomatic offensives. >> so ukrainian president zelenskyy is ramping up his criticism of the west. he is calling out countries that support ukraine in speeches but are slow or unwilling to provide military aid. in a video address yesterday, zelenskyy compared western leaders with fighters in the besieged city of mariupol. their determination, heroism and firmness are astonishing, he said. if only those who have been thinking for 31 days on how to hand over dozens of jets and tanks had 1 percent of their courage. as mentioned if a separate interview with "the economist" zelenskyy asserted some countries had drawn a red line

at sending more offensive weapons to ukraine because they're afraid of russia, and that's it. those who say it first are the first to be afraid. he called for a foul embargo on russian oil and gas exports rather than what he called incomplete sanctions, saying, we are not guinea pigs to be experimented on. western officials contend that they have already provided an extraordinary amount of financial and military support to ukraine and have promised to continue. mike barnicle, zelenskyy begging for everything. there are reports that they need, you know, arms along the coast, arms that can attack ships, that can travel on the back of humvees. they need like athletic military equipment that can get to them fast, and there's no word on whether it is happening but it might be. >> yeah. mika, they need us. they need the world. i mean we can sit here on this set this morning, we can sit anywhere in the united states,

we can sit anywhere in large parts of western europe and talk about, well, it is a limited war. it is not a limited war if you live in ukraine. it is not a limited war when you see your country being destroyed around you, literally destroyed around you. it is not a limited war when perhaps as much as a third of the population of ukraine has been forced to leave. so, yeah, he does need all of that. thankfully, through some miracle we are still maintaining to get equipment and weaponry into ukraine on a ground route, which is incredibly difficult at this stage. so the biggest story of this war might be in the end the president of ukraine and what he has become. he has become a global figure, a symbol of courage, leadership, unity, preservation, survival,

you name it, and he is a role model for everything that seems to being fought for in ukraine, liberty, freedom, equality, the right to live the way you want to live without an oppressor taking your land and your country away from you. so, yeah, he needs us. >> yeah, richard haass, obviously though he has been critical for quite sometime about the west not doing enough. we have obviously -- the united states at least -- we have authorized an extraordinary amount of weaponry, over $13 billion worth of support, humanitarian and military support. david ignatius, who has been to the border, says that our weaponry is just streaming in at an astonishing rate, and it has, but now he is saying he needs planes, he needs tanks, he needs anti-missile weapons, he needs anti-ship weapons. are we getting them to him?

how do we get them to him? how do we break the logjam right now between the u.s. and our allies and some of those who want to be more aggressive and some of those who want to hold back? >> one of the lessons militarily of this war, joe, is these large platforms, be they tanks or planes or what have you, are vulnerable to these systems, anti-missile systems, anti-ship systems and so forth. all of those from drones to anti-ship systems to get at the russian vessels in the black sea, anti-tank munitions, surface-to-air missiles, we ought to be flooding ukraine. we need to flood the zone with that. the other great weakness in our policy is the european and particularly german dependence on russian gas and that continues. that's essentially floating the russian economy here. the more that can be done to turn down that spigot because putin is getting, what, $750 million a day, that's what is floating his economy. what we have to do is give

ukraine the weapon systems it needs and, secondly, begin to reduce russian gas ex ports. if those two things happen i think there's a decent chance this will wind down. >> walter isaacson, richard haass, thank you both so much for your insights this morning and historical perspective. still ahead on "morning joe," new reporting on how russian generals are getting killed at an extraordinary rate. plus, moscow's encrypted military phones so they've resorted to stealing phones from ukraines. we'll develop into both of those new reports next. you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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recuse himself from future cases related to the 2020 election. this comes after it was revealed that his wife, jenny thomas, texted former white house chief of staff mark meadows urging him to challenge donald trump's regime change loss. the text messages were part of a trove of documents and messages meadows turned over to the house committee investigating the deadly capitol riots before he stopped cooperating with the investigation. >> you have the wife of a sitting supreme court justice advocating for an insurrection, advocating for overturning a legal election to the sitting president's chief of staff, and she also knows this election, these cases are going to come before her husband. this is a textbook case for removing him, recusing him from these decisions, and i don't think -- all i hear is silence from the supreme court right

now. that better change in the coming week. >> clearly justice thomas should have recused himself. that's not even at question here, and i think that we also need a thorough investigation to better understand exactly what has happened with the judge's wife. >> the question is why didn't he recuse himself from decisions pertaining to the 2020 election before this. it is crazy. there are a lot of questions about him. white house deputy press secretary careen jeanpiere has tested positive for covid-19. the announcement comes five days after press secretary jen psaki says she tested positive for the virus. jean-pierre says she has not been in close proximity to the president in recent days and is only experiencing mild symptoms.

taylor hawkins, drummer of the foo fighters, died suddenly on friday. the band was at a festival to play in bogota on friday night. the band said in a statement that his passing was, quote, a tragic and untimely loss. columbia's office released a statement saying a preliminary toxicology report found ten psycho active substances in his system. authorities have not yet ruled on a cause of death or completed their investigation. in a statement the band wrote, quote, his musical spirit and infectious laughter will live on with us, all of us forever. our hearts go out to his wife, children and family. for sure. the white house could be days away from allowing americans over the age of 50 to get a second covid vaccine booster shot. nbc news correspondent casey

catie beck has the latest on that. >> reporter: older americans could have the chance to get a second booster shot to protect against covid-19. the fda is not expected to recommend the shot, but will likely authorize it for those over 50 years old according to "the new york times." the white house acting with hopes of keeping hospitalizations and death rates low. >> reporter: does it confuse people when it is not specific, if it is sort of left up to you? >> it does confuse people. we often like to have things pretty clear. it is safer to think about having this fourth shot sooner rather than later. >> reporter: data from a recent israeli study supports that idea and shows second boosters can be effective at lowering the risk of death. the study done among older adults found mortality due to covid-19 during the omicron surge was significantly lower among those received a booster

dose. encouraging signs on the covid front, numbers going down, but a new and contagious variant has arrived. cdc data shows one-third of covid cases in the u.s. are now the omicron sub variety ba.2 with nevada, colorado, d.c. and new york all seeing cases rise. >> is the term booster getting outdated? >> it is. so the fourth shot is basically like a seasonal recommendation. in fact, i do think all americans will need to get used to the idea. >> reporter: medical experts say those eligible for a fourth shot should consider their personal risk factors, for many americans a new and important choice coming soon. catie beck, nbc news. coming up, it is not just front line soldiers falling in battle for russia. putin's generals are dropping at an alarming rate. plus, the ukrainian are tapped into communications back to moscow. more about their entered calls

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♪♪ it is 33 past the hour. a live look at the white house. welcome back to "morning joe." . the war in ukraine is proving extraordinarily deadly for russian troops, and not just the rank and file. as "the washington post" reports, russian generals are being aggressively targeted by ukrainian forces and killed at a rate not seen since world war ii. they're being picked off by snipers, in close combat and in bombings. ukrainian officials say their forces have killed seven generals alongside more senior russian army and naval

commanders in just four weeks of combat. meanwhile, russia's communication systems are failing at a higher than expected rate, forcing invading troops to rely on open systems that can be readily intercepted by ukrainian forces. according to new reporting in foreign policy, ukrainian units are exploiting russia's lack of communications to jam and interfere with tactical messages and in some cases even pinpointing the location of russian general officers for snipers that have been trained by western militaries over the past eight years. the ukrainians have been preparing for this. joining us now, the reporters behind those pieces. london bureau chief for "the washington post," william booth. and national security and intelligence reporter at "foreign policy" amy mckinnon. also with us, the host of "way too early" and white house chief at "politico", jonathan lemire.

katty kay is with us as well. looking at the map and russia's gain and the lack thereof, i think it was unexpected by vladimir putin to be in this position right now. >> absolutely. if you look at that map, mika, and you put a clock over it, what you see is basically from 12:00 through 6:00 going clockwise, that's where the russian positions are. the idea that they would move into the center or west has essentially been stymied. the question, and william would be the perfect person to address it, is whether now essentially -- we've had the signals, this is what the russians have said, we can't do better than this so we're going to hold this, and whether he thinks that they are seeing this as something to trade diplomatically or just to freeze this in place, that this essentially becomes their new definition of victory? >> william? >> um, in terms of where the

russians want to go in freezing their operations, i don't have great eyes on that. i have great eyes on the generals that were killed, so i think there's -- >> william, let me ask you about that because i'm going to read a line from your piece i think is fascinating. it is just one more line and it is the reported high attrition rate from russian commanders in ukraine underscores the problem of invading the country on a false set of assumptions, expecting to swiftly topple ukraine's government and install a puppet regime to bring it back to moscow's orbit. why was that damning? >> i think they assumed they were going to go in and take kyiv very quickly and they would be well accepted. the problem is they've been stalled over the last four weeks and they've been fought very hard by the ukrainian forces. the point of our piece just the other day was that the seven

generals were hit. some were targeted or certainly unlucky, and that the ukrainian forces are looking to stop the command and control unit it that are at the front of the advances of the russian forces and they've been pretty effective. >> yeah. also, the casualties that russia has endured in this, is this something that is surprising to them and how does that impact their thinking on the strategy? does it bother them or do they just pull in more troops? >> i think their casualties have been maybe astounding, very, very high. nato officials briefed reporters in europe last week when biden came that there were 7,000 to 15,000 russian troops killed. that is a lot of people. that is way higher attrition rates than we're seeing in some of the worst weeks in chechnya

and the russians didn't lose that many people in georgia and, you know, afghanistan was a many long-year war. this is a high level and a lot of senior commanders killed. >> so, amy, you write in "foreign policy" the ukrainians are listening, russia's military radios are getting owned. you write in part this. ukraine's security service, the government's main counterintelligence arm, has intercepted dozens of calls among russian soldiers, their higher units and relatives. in one captured call, a russian soldier told his mother his unit had indiscriminately shelled a five-story apartment building and that many troops dreamed of fleeing the battlefield. other troops admitted on intercepted calls their units were exaggerating their strength in reports back to the russian defense ministry. amy, talk to me about on how many different levels this is

crushing to russia's morale but also shows us how not only resilient but resourceful the ukrainians are in this battle. >> well, i think the first thing that these intercepts speak to is just how unprepared the russian forces were to be sent over the border into ukraine to start this war. you know, we know from the intercepts that many of these soldiers, many of whom are incredibly young, were very confused as they were being sent into ukraine. they were only -- many were only given 24 hours notice and they didn't have the time required to exchange the kind of encryption keys that they need to make sure that they can speak over secure lines with their comrades as they were heading into ukraine. it is not just the ukrainian intelligence services that are listening in. it is anybody, ham radio enthusiasts, reporters, analysts, anybody with time and technology to get connected to the radios can listen because they are speaking in some instances over walkie-talkies,

and there's also been reports they're using ukrainian cellphones. if you are in ukraine using ukrainian cellphone you are bet the ukrainian intelligence services are going to find their way into that. >> absolutely. >> on than jonathan lemire. give us more on the reporting about ukrainians being able to listen into the communications and a broader look as to how terrible the russian equipment has been right now, that they've had real issues with equipment breaking down, supply chains being outstretched and being unable to use what western affiliates, officials had thought would be their >> amy. >> amy. >> oh. sorry. well, i mean this speaks to the failures that the russians have had across the board and how unprepared they were going in. i think the intercepts will be incredibly important when it comes to war crimes trials at

some point in the future based on what the russians have been saying across these lines, it does appear they are openly and knowingly targeting civilian infrastructure. that's the kind of thing which investigators will be looking very closely at when it comes to future war crimes tribunals. >> katty kay, jump in. >> william, i wanted to ask you more about the generals and what you think that means in terms of morale of the troops, how that message may be getting back to putin. because one of the questions i think as we go forward and we look at the russian strategy going forward is how much reliable information is vladimir putin himself actually getting ? do we know he sees the war as we are seeing the war? do we know whether he is seeing the losses? do we know if he is seeing the loss of some of these generals? what is your understanding from the reporting on whether the deaths of these generals may be getting through to the kremlin and what it might mean?

>> yes, that's an excellent question. the message of the russian generals will targeted and killed is certainly getting across through social media in ukraine to ukrainians. so it bolsters ukrainian troops and it help it civilian populations withstand the barrage they're under. in terms of what messages are reaching vladimir putin on any given day, i don't really know. the loss of so many senior officers though has to penetrate the army corps, and this is a well-known thing among them. it is very hidden by the russians. it is not out in their public media. it is not being discussed. it is not with any availability on russian media, but he has to know these many people have been lost. and whether that affects their tactics going forward or affects his decision to go to cease-fire or to whatever else he does next

is unclear. but it is a clear blow to lose these many senior officers in the field in four weeks of combat. it is really just brutal. >> amy, is there a significant story and the possibility that at the start of the war that the ukrainians with the substantial assistance of western intelligence agencies amputated the command-and-control capacity of the russian army? >> they've certainly made a very good shot of that, as william is reporting, as william and his colleagues' reporting bears out. there's been a lot of surprises only four weeks into this war. first, as i said earlier, is how unprepared russian troops were. the second being how fiercely and how smartly the ukrainian forces have fought. what they've done is played to

their advantages. they're not engaging russia in the fields in big battles where russia has the numbers to overwhelm them. they've stuck mainly to urban areas where they have the advantage as the home team, they know the terrain. they've moved in small formations and they're waging a war of attrition quite successfully as reporting on the deaths of senior russian commanders attests to, picking off russian troops one after another undermining morale and it will quickly undermine moscow's ability in the field. their initial goal going into this appears to have been a lightning streak on kyiv with the expectation it would collapse in a few days. that, of course, now looks incredibly elusive. what we saw on friday in a speech from a senior russian military commander they're alleging, let's see if it plays out in the field because there's only so much you can take on russian officials words at face

value, they're now going to focus on the donbas as their next line of effort in the war. we heard from ukraine's defense intelligence chief yesterday who said he fears russia is going to pursue what he described as a north and south korea strategy, they want to try to cut off a chunk of ukrainian in the east and try to turn it into a north korea-esque situation where it would be dominated by russia. >> richard haass, with all of this in mind i want to reinforce your words on vladimir putin. while this is his war to end, it is impossible to know how he is responding to how badly it is going right now. i think of, you know, decades ago when russia needed aid from the west and how that infuriated him, this is a highly emotional, angry man, who working for the

kgb lied for a living and has a very different psychological mindset than anything we can understand. >> well, you are right. it is important to remember he is not a military man. he is an intelligence operative. so he sees this through that prism. he has a selective view of history. my guess is that he is most sensitive to what we've been talking about, which is casualties. that is because of afghanistan who helped bring down the soviet regime. implicit as a result, he will have a strategy going forward that will emphasize the use of missiles against ukrainian population centers and deemphasize the engagement of russian troops with the ukrainian army because it is his achilles here. i think that's what we have to expect going forward. >> really great reporting, william booth and amy mckinnon. thank you both very much. come back. >> up next, the slap seen around the world.

an absolutely bizarre scene at last night's oscars as will smith hits chris rock on stage. we'll get to that after a break. fear no food. new poligrip power hold and seal. ♪simply irresistible♪ ♪ ♪ ♪simply irresistible♪ applebee's irresist-a-bowls are back. now starting at $8.99. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. inner voice (furniture maker): i'm constantly nodding... ...because i know everything about furniture ...but with the business side... ...i'm feeling a little lost. quickbooks can help. an easy way to get paid, pay your staff, and know where your business stands. new business? no problem. success starts with intuit quickbooks.

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51 past the hour, time for a look at last night's oscars. "dune" went home with the most awards, winning six statues, including cinematography and editing. "coda" came away with three awards. this marks the first time a streaming service has won a best picture. that's kind of amazing. earlier troy became the first deaf man to win a oscar for his supporting role. jane campion, the only woman to

be nominated twice for best director. last night she won the category for her work on "power of the dog" making it the second year in a row a woman has won. >> and questlove, summer of soul won the oscar for best original documentary. everyone else is talking about something else that happened last night at the ceremony, which is just strange. actor will smith stormed on stage and slapped the presenter, chris rock after a light joke that he made about smith's wife, jada pinkett smith. nbc national correspondent miguel almaguer has more on what happened and what happened next. >> reporter: the smack witnessed around the world may be the most shocking moment in oscar history. chris rock on stage to present

best documentary began taking shots at a-listers in the audience. >> king leo got nothing on me. >> reporter: including will smith's wife, jada pinkett smith. >> jada, i love you. gi jane ii. smith walked on stage confronting chris rock, taking a swing at him, leaving the audience stunned. the american broadcast was heavily censored for the next few moments. on broadcasts around the world, it was not. >> keep my wife's name out of your mouth. >> as it slowly became clear this was real and not an act, the stunned audience fell silent. as social media exploded. pinkett smith has been public about her journey with alopecia and hair loss. >> now, at this point -- you all

know i have been struggling with alopecia. >> it was unclear if rock was aware of this, but during the commercial break, will smith appeared to wipe away tears as he talked to denzel washington, tyler perry, and bradley cooper. others tried to lighten the move. >> will and chris, we're going to solve that like family at the gold party. >> i have been getting out of that spiderman costume, did i miss anything. >> will smith. >> reporter: but to add to the awkwardness, 40 minutes later, smith was awarded his first ever best actor oscar, king richard. >> denzel said to me a few minutes ago, he said at your highest moment, be careful, that's when the devil comes for you. art imitates life. i look like the crazy father, just like they said, but love will make you do crazy things. thank you. i hope the academy invites me back.

thank you. >> did he apologize to chris rock in his apology? did anyone catch that, did i miss it? did we not include it? he didn't apologize to the man he hit, he assaulted on stage? >> no. >> i mean, mika, don't we always tell our kids, you say it with words, you don't go and hit somebody. isn't that the message we get him. i get it, he was upset. it was a dumb joke about his wife. it was tasteless, but i'm sure she's capable of defending herself with her own words. >> completely. >> it looked kind of 1950s, you offended my wife, i'm going to get up on the stage and punch you. >> how about props for chris rock, props for chris rock for continuing. >> he did great. >> for going on, professionally. >> and also -- >> this was really great. >> this incident overshadows, what was a really diverse and

historic field of winners that now, you know, are getting no attention today, and also will smith suffers no consequences here. sure, chris rock has declined to press charges but smith is allowed to get up there and give a lengthy speech. he gets a thunderous long ovation from the crowd 30 minutes after he assaulted chris rock on stage, and spotted this video of him celebrating at the after parties, nothing changed for will smith despite hopping on stage and doing what he did. >> two things on my mind, jada pinkett smith is one of the most empowered, helpful to women women that i have ever, you know, seen out there in front. she is strong, she is beautiful. she shares a lot of vulnerable stories during her red table talks. she shares with her family. she goes there on issues. she goes where no one has the guts to go. she can take care of herself, thank you, number one, and

number two, will smith had a long time to think about what he was doing as he was walking up on that stage, and i just don't know how it still came to that. that was really disappointing. it was a terrible display. especially with everything that we're covering in the world, that was -- that was bad. still ahead, much more on the situation in ukraine. in kharkiv, some relates are protecting what they can amid concerns russia may try to capture the city. nbc's richard engel has the latest from on the ground. "morning joe's" continuing coverage returns in just a moment. 's" continuing coverage returns in just a moment

all of us, incoming here in poland must do the harold work of democracy each and every day, my country as well. that's why -- that's why i came

to europe again this week with a clear and determined message for nato, for the g7, for the european union, for all freedom loving nations, we must commit now to be in the fight for the long haul. we must remain unified today, and tomorrow and the days after and the years and decades to come. it will not be easy. there will be costs but it's a price we have to pay because the darkness that drives autocracy is ultimately no match for the flame of liberty that lights the souls of free people everywhere. ukraine will never be a victory for russia, for free people refuse to live in a world of heplessness and darkness. we will have a future rooted from democracy and principle, hope and light, decency and dignity, freedom and possibilities, for god sake,

this man cannot remain in power. >> president biden in a sweeping speech from poland where he was able to accomplish two things at the same time, several things, actually. sending a clear message on the fight for democracy while also keeping vladimir putin guessing. welcome back to "morning joe," it is monday, march 28th. two minutes past the top of the hour. today, the white house is walking back that unscripted remark of president biden saying vladimir putin cannot remain in power. we're going to get more on that from nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander. but first, the latest from on the ground from chief foreign correspondent richard engel. >> reporter: they're protecting what they can in kharkiv this morning, fearing russia may again try to capture this city. volunteers encasing in sandbags a monument to ukraine's most beloved poet, a symbol of this

nation that russian president vladimir putin says does not and should not exist. it's too late to save large parts of downtown kharkiv, which russia has bombed relentlessly for weeks. kharkiv is back in the cross hairs after russia's military announced last week that the main focus of its so-called special operation is now focused on the east. a shift, after russian troops failed to encircle the capital kyiv, pushed back by ukrainian resistance, and plagued by overstretched supply lines. the new strategy may be to try and take over eastern ukraine splitting the country in two, like north and south korea. mariupol in the southeast is completely surrounded by russian forces. and it has been largely destroyed. in kharkiv, they're watching mariupol closely. many of the residents have been living in the subways for more than a month now. but today they had a surprise, a

troop of children's entertainers who normally do birthday parties are rotating through all the subway stations. it's touching that they're doing this, they're getting entertainment, exercise, but it's profoundly tragic. they have been down here for so long, no sunlight, no school. this is as good as it gets, but it's no way to spend a childhood. >> the kids went crazy for it, burned off some energy. transported to a happier place at least for an hour. it was like a belated birthday for her daughter maria who just turned 4 down here. so many people have left this country, why are you staying here? >> this is our land and we love it, she says. batman says everyone in ukraine is doing his or her part. >> our children is our futures. >> reporter: these are now the childhood memories for a

generation of ukrainians, memories of life, hiding from russian bombs. president biden back in washington late sunday trying to walk back his ad-libbed remark a day earlier for poland, he appeared to call for a regime change in russia. the provocative comment was off script and off message in a fiery speech focused on vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine. >> for god's sake, this man cannot remain in power. >> the white house sought to clarify, as did the secretary of state. >> we do not have a strategy of regime change in russia or anywhere else for that matter. it's up to the russian people. >> reporter: the off the cuff remark quickly ricochetted around the world. putin's spokesperson fighting back, that's not for biden to decide, the president of russia is elected by russians, he said, the push back among senior

lawmakers here in the u.s. was equally swift. a top republican slamming it as a horrendous gaffe in an otherwise good speech. >> my gosh, i wish they would keep him on script. this administration has done everything they can to stop escalating. there's not a whole lot more you can do to escalate than call for a regime change. >> reporter: it was the latest in a string of unscripted comments with president biden that put him at odds with his administration's own messaging, speaking to american troops, suggesting they could be headed to ukraine. the white house later reiterated the u.s. is not sending troops there. later while visiting with ukrainian refugees, offering this blunt assessment of putin. >> he's a butcher. >> that led emmanuel macron to distance himself, saying if we want to do this, we must not escalate, neither with words, nor with actions. >> i understand the french president doesn't want to hurt vladimir putin's feelings,

vladimir putin who has threatened nuclear war on ukraine, and on the west. vladimir putin who has completely destroyed mariupol, vladimir putin who kills children who aims missiles at hospitals, who kills expectant mothers and their children, who kills grandparents, who kills survivors of the holocaust. boy, i sure hope that for the french president, i hope he's not too rattled by the fact that we may have hurt vladimir putin's feelings. no, actually, my biggest complaint thus far on, i think, a remarkable job by president biden and the west, my one complaint has been that we've allowed vladimir putin time and again to determine the outlines of this war, time and again to determine the debate about this war. he's used nuclear blackmail against us and it's about time we start pushing back.

if we cave to nuclear blackmail in ukraine, why wouldn't we cave to nuclear blackmail in sweden, poland, then in germany. joe biden gave a great speech. joe biden, by doing what he did at the end of the state of the join address, putting some creative ambiguity into his message, also a great way to put vladimir putin back. i understand people are going to try to find things to criticize the president on, and i must say, i have been very critical of how we got out of afghanistan. i have been very critical on domestic issues as well, whether it's the southern border, whether it's crime. you go down the list. let me tell you something, in east versus west, freedom versus autocracy. joe biden has been nearly pitch perfect, and that included after his state of the union address when he whispered the words let's go get him and at the end

of this remarkable historic speech, basically his version of jfk and reagan at the brandonberg gate, when he said that this butcher could not be allowed to stay in power. by the way, is emmanuel macron suggesting that vladimir putin is not a butcher? is he suggesting that? maybe we should start actually calling him what he is. and for people that say that would keep him away from the negotiating, no, he's not coming to the negotiating table in good faith. he's just killing ukrainian children. he's just killing ukrainian mothers. he's just killing ukrainian holocaust survivors, he's just leveling cities like he did in chechnya, like he did in aleppo, and like he's doing now in mariupol. maybe this is radical after the united states and the west caving into this butcher for 22

years, maybe it's time we start speaking clearly to a man whose regime has been built on lies. >> yeah. . >> maybe just maybe, i know this is radical for some trumpists in the united states, maybe the truth matters for once. maybe the truth matters finally, and thank god we finally have a president who has followed four presidents or three presidents who have caved to vladimir putin. thank god we finally have a president who is standing up to him. >> and no better a time when something like this is happening, and, you know, this is -- putin was not a military man. he's an intelligence, a former kgb. he lived to lie. he lives to lie. his psychology is completely different as we were discussing earlier than ours. i'm not sure any negotiation

would be productive at this point. we're going to have to find the new way to communicate with vladimir putin, and we may have witnessed it in poland over the weekend. and for the republicans that are, you know, flittering around on the sunday shows, just shocked at this one line, it's actually painful to watch. it's really painful. i mean, really, just, you should have been there in the last four years in the last presidency to have a few things to say about things that were done and said and gaffes that happened on the world stage. if you had been honest then, we could believe you now. >> four years, mika. >> yeah. >> for four years, they sit back -- >> and say nothing. >> for the most part, say nothing about an american president who kowtows to vladimir putin, who says that he trusts this ex-kgb agent. >> just let trump be trump. >> that he trusts u.s. intel community.

for four years, they let him bring in foreign ministers and u.s. ambassadors to the white house, to the oval office, keeping the u.s. press out, but allowing russians in, giving up intel information, classified intel information. i could list a thousand things that he did, and they just remain silent. they remain quiet, and i've got to say, again, no president is above reproach, but to take what happened over there on saturday, to take what happened when the president delivered his address, when he met with the troops, when he met with the refugees, to take the totality of that, and try to boil it down to one so-called gaffe, which i've got to say wasn't a gaffe, as mike barnicle said, he's been thinking about this for a very long time, and it is, again, it is, i know that we have a lot of children out there. a lot of children out there

disguised as grownups that can't handle this. when you're dealing with somebody like vladimir putin, when you're dealing on the international stage, we have to do with putin, what we do with china. especially with taiwan, and again, it's called creative ambiguity. we have to have it. the state department, all the world's a stage. it's the state department's job to say no, no, no, we're fine. it's the president's job to speak his mind and speak the views and speak to the heart of where the american people and western democracy is, and that's exactly what he did. >> to your point about the refugees talking to folks at the highest levels at the white house. that's exactly it. he spent the day with our troops. he spent the day with refugees holding children in his arms and seeing the agony in the eyes of these parents, and yes, he said what he felt. joining us now, columnist at the daily beast, julia davis.

her twitter files include this note quote i watch russian state tv so you don't have to, and in a televised speech on friday, russian president vladimir putin blamed the west for what he called discrimination against russian culture, and said it is attempting to cancel his country. speaking in a meeting with leading cultural figures, vladimir putin compared the so-called cancellation of a number of russian cultural events in recent weeks with the actions of nazi germany in the 1930s. today, they are trying to cancel a thousand-year-old country, he said. julia, what else are you seeing on russian tv? how are they messaging what is happening to russians? >> what is interesting is that joe biden's speech that was considered so scandalous here wasn't that big of a deal there.

they have always said that the united states don't want to see putin in power. they were very much enjoying the western coverage, though, and they have rebroadcast the criticism of biden and the western media, but themselves, they have concentrated on russia's message to biden, which they said was to bomb lviv in western ukraine, while biden was nearby in poland. while our media is worried about literal bombs, putin is dropping real bombs to send a message to us, and that's what they've been emphasizing. >> and julia, we're playing right into, i say we, but these useful idiots for vladimir putin are playing right into putin's hands, aren't they, playing right into the russian military's hands, playing right into the intel services' hands, and most importantly, undercutting zelenskyy and

ukrainian troops, aren't they, with these criticisms? >> they absolutely are, and the russians couldn't be more pleased that the focus is now shifting from them bombing ukrainian cities and killing civilians to criticizing biden for what he said about putin, which was purely factual. >> julia, good morning, jonathan lemire, give us a broader sense, full, about what russian people are hearing right now about the war. what the kremlin's propaganda machines, we've heard a lot about it. words seem to be seeping through, at least to some. we have seen protests in the streets, brave protests, knowing they could be cracked down upon for doing so. give us an overview about what russians are hearing about this conflict? >> they started by portraying this conflict as russia's so called limited military operation to help the so called republics in ukraine, and they

also claim that they were coming to liberate ukrainians from their supposedly nazi government. now, that did not really stick, and putin has been in various follow up speeches, continuing to try to explain why russia had to do what it did. they started claiming that ukraine was about to attack russia, which they're still continuing to repeat. they have come up with a ridiculous theory that ukraine was developing bioweapons to attack russia with, which they now are trying to tie hunter biden into. that is one of the big themes in the russian propaganda right now, and they're also mentioning, as a side note, that it will impact biden's chances of reelection, and potentially help trump. this sunday, there was an interesting shift on sunday's program of dmitry who started

quoting from historical writings to explain why ukraine could never independently exist, and always would have to be a part of russia, whether it wants to or not. so the narrative is now shifting to the more overt of explaining to the russians that this is being done for their own good, that the soviet union was always meant to be reunited in some way, shape or form. in fact, they're talking about putting up soviet flags all over ukraine to replace the ukrainian flags with soviet flags, so it's pretty clear where it's going at this point. they're showing destruction of ukrainian cities, but blaming ukrainians for bombing itself, ludicrously, and russians are still using vpns to get access to the western media, so i suspect more and more of them are waking up as to what is really taking place. >> yeah, an empire of lies,

putin has built his entire regime on one lie after another, so none of that is a surprise. mike barnicle, i must say as a former republican, as a guy who wholeheartedly supported ronald reagan's approach towards the old soviet union, i've got to say that some of my former fellow travelers sitting here being shocked, shocked that joe biden didn't stay on script hen they have spent their entire life with pictures and busts and quotes of ronald reagan, the gipper, and they always praise ronald reagan, calling the soviet union what it was, an evil empire, and going off script, and saying the bombing begins in five minutes, for these hypocrites to sit back, and place fainting couches all

over their newsrooms, and senate offices, and think tanks. >> it's a shock opera. >> how could joe biden, this is so dangerous, as a matter of fact, if you look at this "wall street journal" headline, biden's remarks on putin stirs anxiety. do you know how many headlines i read like this when ronald reagan was president of the united states. oh, what ronald reagan said has really upset, oh, what ronald reagan said has really shocked, schmidt. no, that's all we ever heard about ronald reagan, reagan knew what he was doing, he won the cold war. sorry, leftists, it was reagan who won the cold war, and that's exactly what biden learned, what he took out of that, and so he's talking tough against vladimir putin. and you have all of these former

reagan support e collapsing on their fainting couches with their arms thrust over their heads. they just can't believe what they're seeing. oh, it's so sad. >> president biden has like all of us, everyone in the world, including everybody in the united states of america, witnessed a series of putin moves as he skates through red line after red line after red line in this century. especially in the last ten years. so this is not a red line that he's going to skate across because while many members of the republican party and the united states senate and the house obsess over putin, the president of the united states has a different idea. let's make putin obsess about us. and wonder about us. because he is isolated, he's alone. that table that he sits around is going to get longer, people are going to be far more removed than ever before, probably because he's worrying about, you know, someone coming after him.

a member of the military. but i'd like to ask julia one question, as you listen to moscow's version of fox tv, at least through your explanation, that's what it sounds like you're listening to, is there any mention at all of casualties, of the enormous casualties that the russian military is taking in ukraine? >> as expected, they're lying about casualties, still. they have started by admitting only 498. now they have moved up to claiming that they've lost a thousand. which is a small percentage of what the actual casualties are. so they're lying, but that has been their tradition. they always lie about their casualties. they're calling even a thousand a large amount of casualties, so they certainly can't admit to the russian people the terrible toll that this is taken on

soldiers that don't even know why they're in ukraine. >> julia davis, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning and sharing your insight. we appreciate it. and still ahead on "morning joe," russia is signaling a change of strategy in ukraine. clint watts joins us next to weigh in on what that might mean for the ongoing war, as nato countries from the u.s. to poland keep up their united front. poland keep up their united front. >> mr. president, thanks for the welcome. thanks for having us here, and we sent you our best. we sent you a brzezinski as our ambassador, and i'm glad he's here as well. r ambassador, and i'm glad he's here as well so get relief fast. only tylenol rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. they release medicine fast for fast pain relief. and now get relief without a pill

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russia's invasion of ukraine has stalled on multiple fronts,

aimed to quickly encircle kyiv and force a surrender has faltered against ukrainian resistance. russia's defense ministry says the focus of the operation is now shifting away from the capital and into the eastern part of ukraine. that's where russian backed separatists have been fighting for eight years, and starting today, schools in kyiv will reopen online in part to provide psychological support and to distract children from the war to keep going. in a possible shift in strategy, moscow says it will focus its invasion of ukraine on liberating the east. the russian defense ministry said on friday, the first stage of its operation was largely complete. some observers say this new change could reflect putin's acknowledgment that his plan to swiftly capture major cities has failed. joining us, national security

analyst for nbc news, and msnbc, clint watts, clint, just first of all, the shift in strategy, the change in plans, however you want to describe it, that doesn't seem like a good sign if you're trying to run a war against another country. >> it's definitely not, mika. i think a few key things. in and around kyiv, they've essentially pulled out a lot of the forces in northwest kyiv and are trying to consolidate and reorganize. up near the belarusian border and chernobyl. then on the other side, the eastern side of kyiv, which you see is essentially bravarian area, they took a couple of weeks ago. around kharkiv and sumy, the ukrainian military is taking back, losing others, you can see the russians focusing their combat power there, and then mariupol. that's been the story over the last week, the siege of mariupol continues. you see russia focusing there because they need to take that city so they can relieve combat

power. the last part, in the south, kherson is a place we talked about in week one and two being taken by the russians. now, again, they find resistance from ukrainian protesters essentially in the rear area. they can't secure it. across all of these areas, even if russia has moved forward, they cannot secure, and if they cannot secure, they cannot go after places like kyiv or odessa. >> clint, what's so shocking f -- if you look at this map, we were confident there would be a pitched battle for kyiv for weeks, but certainly that as you went along the eastern border of ukraine the russians would be quickly rushing in and doing mop up operations. but you look all along the russian boarder and, you see one contested area after another. it's been shocking that the russians are having trouble even nailing down land masses right next to their own borders.

>> that's right, joe, and this is the problem with their strategy since the beginning, a failed strategy, which they had to topple kyiv in a week, which was somewhat ludicrous, and they have troops spread out on so many fronts, they can't hold one area in a solidified way, particularly in the east. what you see them doing is taking massive losses, some of the footage i watched from this weekend, just russian tank units basically destroyed, vehicles abandoned, and you're also hearing about troop resistance or going against commanders on the russian side so i'm not confident they can really advance at all, and i wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the background in russia putin is thinking i need to secure whatever gains i can get because if i don't do it now, i might be pushed back on all fronts. the east and south around mariupol is where they're focusing all of their efforts at the moment. >> clint watts, thank you so much, and coming up, they escaped the nazis in world war

ii, only to find themselves on the run amid the russian invasion. nbc's jacob soboroff met with two holocaust survivors who escaped ukraine and brings us their story next on "morning joe." e and brings us their story next on "morning e.jo better hearing leads to a better life. and that better life... ...starts at miracle-ear. it all begins with the most innovative technology... ...like the new miracle-earmini™. available exclusively at miracle-ear. so small, no one will see it. but you'll notice the difference. and now, miracle-ear is offering a 30-day risk-free trial. you can experience better hearing with no obligation. call 1-800-miracle right now and experience a better life. lactaid is 100% real milk, just without the lactose.

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now to a dramatic story emerging from the war in ukraine, holocaust survivors forced to flee amid russia's attacks. nbc news correspondent jacob soboroff met with two people who were rescued from the violence. >> reporter: the dangerous rescue mission began soon after curfew lifted. aid workers sent to extract two holocaust survivors from kyiv. first, natalia, daughter veronica, next, boris, 87 and his daughter-in-law also named natalia, both spent their childhoods evading nazis. boris's father killed by them. they set off on the 350 mile

drive to lviv, and was waiting for them. >> you came during the war to rescue holocaust survivors. >> during the war. >> when they arrived a warm welcome. >> inside the lobby, i met survivor natalia. it was a long journey, she tells me but thank god it's good. we came back the next morning and asked about her past. natalia's mother carried her to a shelter. >> hearing your daughter tell the story of your life as a child here. it's made you cry. it's not just remembering the stories, it's about what's happening now. it's really stressing me out, natalia said. >> reporter: what do you want the world to know? >> live in joy, live in peace,

she said, what do we do if that's all gone. >> reporter: what was it hardest to leave behind in your home? >> you have to abandon your whole life, she said, and on her way to lviv, she said, we were driving past these huge fields, and i told my daughter this was the battlefield during world war ii. what does russia want from us, i don't understand this. we left them to pack up, and downstairs, we saw boris waiting to start his journey to meet family in israel. >> for so many people, the holocaust is something you read about in the history books, but you lived through it. >> i was just a child, he said. >> reporter: what type of memories does this bring up for you, boris? >> it's disgusting, he tells me, about having to flee again. living through the holocaust, and now putin's war, fleeing to survive. >> that was nbc's jacob soboroff reporting, and coming up, our

next guest says free speech doesn't mean hecklers get to shut down debate on college campuses. we're going to read from that new piece next on "morning joe." new piece next on "morning joe." i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! (sighs wearily) here i'll take that! (excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. ♪ (jazz music) ♪ (thank you, have a nice day.) ♪ (trumpet solo) ♪ (bell dings) (pages slipping) ♪ ♪ ♪ (trumpet solo) ♪ ♪ ♪ (typing) (bell dings) ♪ ♪ (cheering ♪ ♪ (typing) ♪ ♪ ♪(trumpet solo) ♪

get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out, get out. >> wow. >> recent events on college campuses are prompting questions about free speech. this scene happened earlier this month at uc hastings, with progressive law students shouting down a speaker during a debate. a few weeks later, another incident broke out at yale law school with more than 100 students attempting to shout

down a bipartisan panel on civil liberties. joining us now, professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. eddie, it's good to have you. a new op-ed in the "washington post" is entitled free speech doesn't mean hecklers get to shut down campus debate. freedom of speech does not include a right to shout doubt others so they cannot be heard. it's profoundly disturbing that students assert a right to determine what messages are acceptable on campus, and try to deprive others within the community to invite or listen to speakers of their choice. if such a heckler's veto that is allowed, the only speech that occurs will be that which no one cares enough to shut down. >> so, yeah. eddie, erwin wrote that, obviously dean and berkeley law school and a man greatly respected in the legal

community. let's just start with what he's the most concerned about, and i'm sure you share that concern. and that is the so-called heckler's veto, where somebody gets up to speak, and they're shouted down, so no students get to hear what they have to say. should there be any place academic settings for a so-called heckler's veto? >> let me just say this, joe, first of all, it's great to see both you and mika. it's certainly the case that we need to cultivate an environment for free and open exchange and debate on college campuses and for the most part that happens, it happens every single day in places across the country. i agree with the basic premise of the op-ed, and the dean is an ally. he's been arguing in this terrain for decades. i think the framing is problematic here. i don't know if this is a question, if it's best thought of as free speech, joe.

i think it might be thought of better as what do we take to be acts of civil disobedience, there are moments where students feel that particular speakers on campus are offensive, they represent a threat to their own standing and dignity in that space, and they make choices. they make choices to protest at that moment, and i think it's better to think about this as an act of civil disobedience and the consequences that follow from it, than a question of free speech. >> civil disobedience, there's a time and a place and a manner for civil disobedience, certainly you have students who don't like what a speaker says, and they shut down the entire debate, and you know, yale, yale federalist society held a panel that featured progressive american humanist association, and somebody from the adf, a

conservative nonprofit, and because people were offended, they shouted down both the speakers, and we also, of course, had the example, at uc hastings college of law. we don't want our students to be so fearful of opposing opinions that they can't hear them, right. >> debate the conversation. >> of course. >> if you are offended by somebody's viewpoint, let them speak. >> so of course that's absolutely central to how colleges and universities work. but just as we have in our politics, joe, we have on university campuses, and what is that, we have people using liberal means for ill liberal ends, so people will take advantages of the basic norms and values of universities and colleges in order to undermine those norms and values. what does it mean for people to come into college spaces and university spaces -- >> what do you mean, though?

we have situations where condi rice is not allowed to give speeches, commencement addresses, christine lagarde not allowed to give commencement addresses, i can go on and on. it has gotten ridiculous. go ahead. >> no, joe, i think you're right in some instances, but at every moment that condoleezza rice was protested in terms of her delivering a commencement address, she gave another one, so we need to be very very careful in how we're generalizing these moments to american higher ed broadly, and i'm very interested, so this is what i think just really clearly that when people speak, they have a right to speak, and people have a right to respond, and you can't dictate the form and content of the response. somebody may decide to slap somebody, right, but there are consequence that is follow from that, and they have to be aware of the consequences, that's an assault. some people may decide to

protest, it may very well result in their expulsion. they have to beware of those consequences. but what i'm interested in more, joe, is why is this at the heart of our concern about free speech and democracy when we have over 175 pieces of legislation introduced to target teachers when we have 13 pieces of legislation passed in eleven states that are dictating what teachers can teach. that seems to be putting people leveraging state power to do this. yeah, you do, i know. >> i just want to emphasize this. >> you just want to change the subject, i love you, my brother, but you just want to change the subject, because anytime we talk about anything going on in college campus, you're like james carville, look at the bird over there, i'm not going to look at the bird over there. this has been happening for too long, and again, civil disobedience, what great respect i have for students on either side of the ideological spectrum that have the courage to have --

to step out of where they feel safe, and commit acts of civil disobedience, that's fine. but they have to be prepared, be asked to leave the room, and they need to because, yes, you said, well, condi rice gets to speak in other places. what if i'm a rutgers student and i wanted to hear condi rice speak at my event but she was canceled, not allowed? christine lagarde. what if i'm that student and don't get a chance to hear that? or say a conservative, even a right-wing trumpist wants to come and speak on the campus, who has views that may be offensive to you and me, but there are students on that campus that want to hear it. and let me just say as a conservative that grew up around liberals on college campuses that didn't like to hear opposing factors, i told my

liberal friends, you're only depriing yourself. you need to listen to what other people believe and sharpen your arguments against them. what do you say to that? >> joe, i think, obviously i agree with the idea that colleges and universities should be open spaces of debate and inquiry, that we should not be engaged in shutting down opposing views. if you don't want to hear someone, don't go to the talk. i understand that. >> right. >> but i also understand there are people out here who are holding views that question the dignity and standing of people who inhabit these spaces. what do i mean by that? if you call into question the underlying values and commitments that make universities and colleges work, that is that everyone has equal standing and dignity and that is the heart of open and free inquiry, if someone comes in using those values to call into question the very values, we threaten have very foundation of what we do in universities and colleges.

that's the danger, the tight rope we're walking here. we can't allow any kind of speech. we don't do that in our politics. we have to be thoughtful in this moment on university campuses because there are authoritarian voices, folks trying to so many ways to choke the life out of america that's coming into being, and we have to be very diligent responding to them. >> that process should take place before the speaker is invited, before the speaker gets in front of a microphone, and before students on both sides of the ideological spectrum take time out of studying to come and listening to a speaker on campus, mika, only to have that speaker shouted down so they don't get to hear the speaker. >> we have the author of the speech on the phone because we couldn't get the video right. the op-ed -- he's the dean of berkeley law, irwin chemrinnski, to chairman of the center for

free speech and civil engagement. he knows a bit about this as well. >> dean, thank you so much and thank you for writing law books that helped me get through law school, at least the best i could. tell me, why did you write this op-ed now? you there, dean? >> hmm. couldn't get the video or the audio. >> no video, no audio. >> means -- >> but a great op-ed. we go back to eddie. eddie, i think what makes this so interesting, this op-ed so interesting at this time, is actually where the dean is from. he's from uc berkeley. he's not from a conservative right-wing institution. >> right. >> this is obviously a concern, a growing concern not just among people on the right but among

moderates, among liberals, the same people deeply offended by the book banning and the sort of legislation as you said that its passing that's stifled conversation and debate in k-12 classes as well. >> right. i take the dean to be an ally in this fight, right. i understand he is just as concerned about forces in our public debate that are stifling conversation, that are trying to police and criminalize particular kinds of positions and subject matter. i understand that. i can see the basic argument. part of what i want to do is shift the frame. i didn't shout you down, but i'm trying to change the subject again because there are those of us who found ourselves on lists of turning points usa. we have suffered, you know, these extraordinary calls from conservatives who threaten us. there is this element at the --

in this space that is so contentious, that it becomes very difficult to deal with the delicate issue of where do we protest and when do we commit ourselves to this overarching value of free and open inquiry. it's delicate conversation to have. >> by the way, eddie, i think you touched on what's the most important thing here, and we have to realize it doesn't have -- it doesn't belong to just one side or the other. we are fighting, those of us who are conservative, and people like you, who are progressive, together we are fighting ill liberalism, not just on college campuses but in the media, in our political system, and this is a battle. this is a battle between autocracy and liberal democracy. and let us hope that the voices of illiberalism push it aside on

the left and right. >> we'll continue this conversation. we can get irwin back. we denied him his free speech today because of technology. >> but we'll do this again with him. it's definitely a conversation that is far from over. >> great seeing you, eddie. >> thank you to you all for joining us. we'll be back right here tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. for another edition of "morning joe" and our continuing coverage of the russian invasion of ukraine. that does it for us this morning. chris jansing picks up the coverage after this final break. .

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janssen can help you explore cost support options. good monday morning. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york. it is monday, march 28th. and this morning, there are reports of explosions in central ukraine, even as the russian military claims it's turning its focus