week. the judiciary committee on monday and the full senate later in the week. thanks to all of you getting up "way too early" on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts now. do you believe what you said putin can't remain in power or do you regret saying that because your government has been trying to walk that back? do your words complicate matters? >> number one, i'm not walking anything back. the fact is i was expressing the outrage i was feeling over the actions of this man, just brutality. half of the children in ukraine -- i had just come from being with those families, and so -- but i want to make it clear, i wasn't then nor am i now articulating a policy change. >> i make no apologies. those words from president biden as he was pressed by reporters on his remarks that vladimir putin cannot remain in power. we'll hear more of what the president said he was thinking

when he chose to end his speech in poland with that declaration. meanwhile, ukraine says it is retaking more territory, even as russia changes battle tactics. we'll tell you where things stand ahead of another round of peace talks in turkey today. and some of the other stories we're following this morning, will smith apologizes finally. >> not really. >> to chris rock. >> but whatever. >> he should have done it on stage, but whatever. after slapping the comedian really hard for telling a joke, walking up on stage and a just smacking him. new action from the january 6th committee and a federal judge says donald trump likely broke the law while trying to overturn the 2020 election by the way. >> will it matter? you know, it is just not -- in america we believe, willie, no man is above the law, but we -- >> i still believe it. >> -- see some people are above the law. on the grand scale donald trump can violate one law after another, commit one crime after another, and, well, when the

d.a.'s get close to him they just shut down the investigation and prosecutors leave and say, yeah, he committed a lot of crimes. not sure -- on a very, very small scale though, you also have a mega-rich actor who commits assault and battery, punches a guy on stage. >> crazy. >> goes back, sits down. i mean i heard somebody yesterday say, hollywood is shocked by everything, everything. >> right. >> but somehow they see this assault and battery committed in front of them on the most important night of the year at the highlight of the most important night of the year, and what does hollywood do? nothing. the academy, it took the academy a day to say they were even going to look into this. there's so much to say here. by the way, afterwards, we saw questlove in that extraordinary documentary.

>> yes. >> having to go up afterwards. he was overshadowed by this, but will smith jumping up, hugging him, pretending like nothing happened, his wife sitting, latching. they're sitting laughing at jokes like an assault had just not taken place, and then they're talking about what a great night it was. i'm telling you, man, surreal. it was surreal. i'm just wondering why hollywood seems to be -- i mean chris rock was such a pro. he had so much class. it was -- it is still bizarre the way they're treating this. >> well, they did worse than do nothing. hollywood gave him a standing ovation. >> thank you. >> about 20 minutes after that happened on stage as if, as you say, nothing happened. he walked up to the stage and they gave him a standing ovation. i'm glad he finally apologized to chris rock. he issued the apology which he should have given during that speech. he kind of gave -- i don't know if you could call it an apology, attempted to, but it was

self-indulgent and tears for himself it appeared. but a bizarre night and probably revealing about the culture of hollywood where as long as you are one of the most famous and powerful guys in that town, even if you slap somebody on stage you will get a standing ovation 20 minutes later. again, i'm glad he apologized yesterday. he went through and apologized to all of the right people and hopefully he meant it, but it would have been nice to hear it in real-time or perhaps not to have smacked a guy on tv to begin with. >> even the apology yesterday, he starts with the apology to chris rock and then he goes, but he told a joke. no. again, anybody that's been to any of these ceremonies, like ricky gervais at the golden globes, that guy like should have worn like one of those old face masks, willie, one of those old nfl -- because if you are just going to punch somebody because they go over the line --

and here is another thing about chris rock. it is tough enough being a comedian. i mean i think we all look up to these guys and women. it is the hardest thing in the world, and he's paid to make people laugh and then he gets hammered and he has to keep going. he's still a pro here. but then will smith starts screaming at him, willie. >> wow, dude. >> i mean you're chris rock, again, i can't say enough good things about him but i will say i agree with howard stern. will smith, not well. he needs to seek help. >> yeah. i -- i just think with everything going on in the world and you have someone on stage when free speech and democracy are all, you know, the top headlines and a guy gets punched in the face for making a joke here in america, it just looks

really bad. >> yeah. willie, they don't let zelenskyy speak. >> right. >> but like you said, they let their most powerful star in hollywood commit battery on a stage and give him a standing ovation. that is screwed up. >> yeah. i mean it would be isolated if will smith had done what he did, and there's no defense what he did and i don't think even in his apology yesterday he tried to really defend what he did. you can't defend what he did. but what was particularly grotesque i think to most normal americans, maybe not inside that bubble but normal people who live in the world and try to raise their kids the right way and not punch people in public or anywhere else, this standing ovation that he got and the wiping away of what had just happened was bizarre and grotesque and reflective of a culture that's probably been rotting for a long time but was out on display for the world that night. >> yeah. we will be talking more about

it. but let's get to thetop headlines on tuesday, march 29th. ukrainian and russian officials are meeting in turkey this morning for another round of cease-fire talks. according to four anonymous sources some spoke with "the financial times" the latest draft of a deal saw russia drop several core demand it first made when the war began. those include calling for the, quote, de-nazification of ukraine's government and legal protection for the russian language in ukraine. russia is also prepared to let ukraine join the european union if its military remains neutral. in exchange, sources say, ukraine would have to abandon a push for nato membership. >> yeah, this is where we were. this is where we were before the war. >> well, whatever. >> zelenskyy said, we wouldn't seek nato membership, i guess. now they're basically doing -- putin is doing his version of english-only legislation. we are going to protect the

russian language from outsiders, from ukrainians. i mean this is -- this is -- we find ourselves now in a position where they've fallen back so much, willie, on their demand, and there's good reason. the military continues to lose ground. you know that unrest is growing inside of russia. we always talk about the television set, but kids have phones. people in their 20s, 30s, 40s have phones. they know how to dial out, get a vpn address outside of the country. they know what is going on. this has just done something that putin -- they're going to have to negotiate. >> it is a reflection, as you say, of the failure of this military invasion. that his demand is, okay, can we at least make people speak russian in ukraine, to which ukraine is saying no. the reason is ukrainian forces are making progress again now. they're taking back territory that had been captured by russian forces.

nbc news chief correspondent richard engel has more on that from the eastern city of kharkiv. >> reporter: the russian military claims it is shifting the focus of its invasion to eastern ukraine, but that could be just a way of trying to save face after images like these, more of what ukraine says are russian vehicles it destroyed outside the capital kyiv. the mayor of the nearby suburb of irpin claimed european forces liberated that area, too. in the east russia has destroyed a lot but conquered lights. the city of mariupol, bombed relentlessly is still resisting. on the outskirts of kharkiv, sergie and his group of volunteers are holding up mariupol. he wears an american flag on his flack jacket. he says it represents freedom. his gun was donated by ukrainian americans. >> we are hearing a lot of fire

right now. it sounds very kbens. what has been happening here? >> reporter: we've repelled every russian assault, he says. now they're just bombing us from afar. >> richard engel from kharkiv. meanwhile u.s. officials say ukrainian troops recaptured sumy near the border with russia. russia has launched more than 1,300 missiles in total since the invasion began last month. moving to the western part of ukraine, we find nbc news national correspondent gabe gutierrez in lviv. good morning. >> reporter: good morning, willie. minutes before you came to us we heard the sound of air raid sirens here in lviv. it has become a common sound in this western city which, as you mentioned, has been a relative safe haven for refugees since the start of this war. we are still seeing thousands of them streaming through here each day. the governor of lviv this morning saying that air defense systems here in this region

actually shot down three missiles in the last several hours. of course, willie, this comes after at least two airstrikes over the weekend. those two airstrikes on saturday that came just as president biden was in neighboring poland. lviv, of course, less than 50 miles from the polish border and nato territory, but the fighting is intensifying in other parts of this country, willie. you just played a report from richard engel. he is in the northeast part of this country in kharkiv. the fighting is also intensifying in mariupol, as he mentioned, but also we are hearing in the last few hours local officials in mariupol are saying a humanitarian corridor is being allowed to go into the city today. so that is perhaps some good news. they're able to evacuate some of the residents there. but we have been speaking with residents and refugees coming out of mariupol and they describe an increasingly dangerous and disastrous situation. local officials saying more than 160,000 people are still in that besieged city. we spoke with one woman, a

grandmother who said that she walked 15 miles to be able to reach a humanitarian bus taking her granddaughter along. she called it hell on earth, and that is something we have been hearing over the last several days. again, ukrainian authorities are saying that they are making some gains in and around kyiv as russia seems to be shifting its strategy to the eastern part of the country. but, again, a lot -- not much hope necessarily that there will be a major breakthrough from the peace talks under way now in turkey but it remains to be seen whether we get anywhere with those. willie. >> those pictures, particularly out of mariupol, remain breathtaking. nbc's gabe gutierrez in lviv in the western part of ukraine. gabe, thanks so much. mika. president biden is clarifying those unscripted remarks he made at the end of his warsaw speech on saturday that vladimir putin cannot remain in power. peppered with questions by reporters, the president said he makes no apologies for his

remarks. so he's actually not clarifying. he also said he's not calling for regime change. >> do you believe what you said, that putin can't remain in power, or do you now regret saying that because your government has been trying to walk that back? did your words complicate matters? >> well, you asked three different questions. i will answer them all. number one, i'm not walking anything back. the fact of the matter is i was expressing the moral outrage i felt toward the way putin is dealing and the actions of this man, just -- just brutality. half the children in ukraine. i just had come from being with those families, and so -- but i want to make it clear, i wasn't then nor am i now articulating a policy change. i was expressing the moral outrage i feel and i make no apologies for it. >> personal feelings, sir? >> my personal feelings, right. >> does it complicate the di

diplomacy of this molkt? >> no, i don't think it does. we are in a situation where it complicates the escalatory efforts of putin to continue to engage in the carnage, the kind of behavior that makes the whole world say, my god, what is this man doing. that's what complicates things a great deal. >> what made you add that? that wasn't in your prepared remarks we were told so what made you add that? >> i was talking to the russian people. the last part of the speech was talking to the russian people, telling them what we thought. i was communicating this not only to the russian people but to the whole world. this is just stating a simple fact, that this kind of behavior is totally unacceptable. totally unacceptable. the way to deal with it is to strengthen and keep nato completely united and help

ukraine where we can. >> you've said that you're confident your comment won't undermine diplomatic efforts. are you clear vladimir putin sees it that way, that he won't use it as an escalatory. >> i don't care what he thinks. he is going to do what he's going to do. >> you aren't concerned that he might use that as an excuse to escalate given his recent behavior? >> given his recent behavior he should -- excuse me. i shouldn't say that to you. given his recent behavior people should understand he is going to do what he thinks he should do, period. he's not affected by anyone else, including, unfortunately, his own advisors. this is a guy that goes to the beat of his own drummer. the idea he will do something outrageous because i called him for what he was and what he's doing i think is just not rational. >> thank you. >> wow. >> thank you. >> he only gets better.

>> i mean i'm sorry, just thank you. this whole idea, well, what does vladimir putin -- you know what? when the question was asked yesterday it was like, i don't care, we don't care. we've been trying to figure out what vladimir putin thinks and then he invades ukraine. we've been trying to figure out what vladimir putin thinks and then he bombs children's hospitals. we've been trying to figure out what vladimir putin thinks, and then he bombs -- >> maternity houses. >> -- maternity wards, then he bombs cancer hospitals, then he bombs -- just bombs civilian homes. they target -- who cares what he thinks? let me say that again. who cares what he thinks? it is time for him to start worrying about what we think, what the president of the united states thinks. what the congress thinks. let's just call it what it is. with the indispensable power for

freedom and democracy on the planet thinks and how we work with our friends and allies in europe. who cares what he thinks at this point? seriously, who cares? i swear, i understand the questions. they need to be asked. i understand why they need to be asked. they're all important questions for journalists to ask. all right. but it is also fine for the president to become impatient. you know, ronald reagan constantly, constantly through the 1980s was hearing this nonstop. he dared to talk about peace through strength. he dared to deploy pershing 2 cruise missiles into germany. millions of people would go out into the streets and protest and burn american flags and burn reagan in effigy. oh, he's going to get us into world war iii. we heard it time and time again.

please, look it up. okay. go back and do some checks about what people said about ronald reagan when he took a strong position and called the evil empire what it was, an evil empire. diplomats were shocked and stunned and deeply -- oh, this is terrible, now we can never negotiate with them. no, actually reagan was right. we won the cold war. i know a lot of people on the left love to say it only happened because of mikhail gorbachev. no, it only happened because of the united states of america, ronald reagan and our allies pushed them into a corner they couldn't get out of, economically, militarily, politically and every other way. that's happening now. for 20 years we've had presidents that have allowed vladimir putin to push the world around. that stopped. that stopped. by the way, if joe biden sees refugees, if he sees mothers, if he sees orphans, if he sees

family members who lost a holocaust survivor in this round of bombing, yeah, i hope he gets emotional and i hope he calls him what he is. look at the man, look at the man on your screen. you know what he is? he is a butcher. he is a butcher of babies. he is a butcher of grandmothers. he is a butcher of holocaust survivors. he literally, he literally, as dr. brzezinski wrote in the early 1980s, russians, they're weak so they go find weaker countries to go into and they try to wipe them out, as dr. brzezinski said, biologically. he's committing war crimes. so, yeah, i think most americans and most freedom-loving people across the world, they want their president to see the pain and agony that ukrainians are going through and voice it for them on a world stage. that's exactly what he did.

let's bring in right now the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire. there were a lot of people criticizing the state department for cleaning up those words. that's what the state department does. all of the world is a stage. all right. everybody is a player, everybody has their own roles. we expect the state department to say, oh, no, everything is fine, round -- smooth off the rough edges. but in this case, biden doesn't seem apologetic at all. i mean talk about what went into him saying that and why he just simply refuses to back down. >> yeah, there are a few things at play here, joe. first of all, to your point just a minute ago, the administration already believes that vladimir putin, of course, has committed war crimes. we have heard that. they have deemed him a war criminal at this point, what he has done. we have heard from the president, the secretary of state, they believe he has done so. they, of course, are worried there could be an escalation to

chemical, biological weapons. that remains a possibility. they do feel like at this point -- and we heard from the president say yesterday it is not like there could be that much more of an escalation. it is not like this is going to prompt putin into violence. he already is violent, he already commissioned this invaccination. to be clear, these remarks were not planned. it is not just the state department who cleaned them up. we had white house officials within minutes on saturday grabbing reporters and saying, look, we're not calling for regime clear. that's the difference between policy and personal passion, that's the distinction they are trying to make. the president is not backing off what he personally believes. he is not saying it is u.s. policy, and as one of his closest aides was telling me, we know joe biden for 40 years in public life speaks off the cuff sometimes. he also as senator is used to expressing his words without it becoming public policy.

it has been tripped up a couple of times with that since coming into office. with that said, this was aimed at the russian people, suggesting -- not necessarily calling for a coup, but i don't think it is a surprise to anyone that washington or, frankly, the capital of any democracy would like to see vladimir putin out of power right now, that's what the aide said to me. if there's an internal uprising, whether it is actually from the russian military or just more pressure from the people, more protests, maybe even the oligarchs closest to putin that would weaken his hold on power it would be a good thing. officials have said there's no sign it is imminent. that said, this is what the president believes is part of the campaign to keep the pressure on. once he said it, he wasn't going to back off of it. >> jonathan, what is the white house's position for those watching the war. this will be a long slog, whether russia digs in on the conventional war that has failed or they pull back and start lobbing missiles from russia

into ukraine indiscriminately. the white house feels it has turned the screws as hard as it can on sanctions, it has flooded the of weapons. what more can they do? >> they're going to keep flowing weapons, they won't stop doing that. there's not another tool to pull out of the tool kit here to say, hey, we haven't tried this yet. it will be more of the same, more drones, more weapons and things like that, working with nato allies. they will keep looking at sanctions potentially on some of the oil and gas industry here and further tighten the screws on putin. they're hoping that europe can continue to move down that path as well, although the steps announced last week pretty incremental. it will take a long time before europe can wean itself off russian energy. they won't be able to give zelenskyy exactly what he wants, and there's a concern here. they feel putin is reaching a decision point where he could -- he has two options here. we know there are peace talks

going on now. there's not a lot of hope around them but it is their first face-to-face meeting in two weeks. it is inherently a good thing. maybe putin is looking to start negotiating a way out, no time soon. the question is does he indeed focus on donbas and limit the scale of the war or, as you say, pull back troops to avoid taking more casualties and just do long-range bombardments, shattering ukrainian cities, which, of course, would just mean more loss of life and prolonging a terrible war. >> right. also right now the ukrainians are literally begging for planes, tanks and anti-ship weapons to save mariupol, which could be reportedly days away from collapse. so we'll see how the united states and nato responds. still ahead on "morning joe," a federal judge says former president trump likely committed crimes by trying to overturn the 2020 election. we'll go over that new ruling and how it impacts the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol. and more on the growing

fall-out after will smith slapped comedian chris rock at the oscars. you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back. the weirdest part was that initially will smith laughed at that joke. >> can't wait to see it, all right. >> but then he must have looked over and noticed jada was not amused and was like, uh-oh, i better do something. boy, did he do something. this was the hollywood version of your drunk uncle starting a fight, ruining the wedding and then standing up and giving a long toast to the bride and groom. by the way, no one did anything. a whole room full of people, no one lifted a filing earp. "spider-man" was there, aqua man, no one helped chris rock. assaulting chris rock and winning the oscar is like storming out of the house after breaking up with your girlfriend

and then coming back in because you forgot your keys. according to one source they discussed having will smith removed from the theater, but instead they decided to let him give the longest best actor speech in history. of course it was the longest best actor speech in history. they weren't going to play him off. he would have beat the crap out of everybody in the band. obviously chris rock did not deserve to be slapped in the face for a joke. will's position was he was defending his wife which is a tough position to be in because it is damned if you do, ted cruz if you don't.

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30 past the hour. the city of odesa is viewed as a key port and strategic asset by both russia and ukraine. today its white sand beaches have been mined and half of its residents have stayed behind to fight russian forces. nbc news foreign correspondent molly hunter has the details.

>> reporter: for weeks the strategic port city has been at the ready. the famed opera house now one of the most heavily fortified buildings in the country. there's shelling most nights. last week a residential building hit on the outskirts of town. the city of a million is mostly russian speaking. once a part of the russian empire it is now as the jewel of the black sea. >> the russians are destroying it. what we are most afraid of, they're ruining exactly what they claim they're protecting. >> reporter: and estimated half the city stayed behind to fight and protect their heritage and many of the city's white sand beaches now mined according to officials here, ready for an amphibious attack. there are no civilians on the beach. normally it would be packed with people but the russians have blockaded the odesa port. we're not seeing any ships, nothing coming in or going out. if there's an attack on the strategic port it will come from out there. according to the u.s. a couple

dozen warships remain off the coast. it was said that they move in and out, psychological warfare. we will kill them, drown them, he says. they have no options. >> reporter: you don't think they can take odesa? we will sink them and it will be fish feeding season, he says, and our fish will grow fat. a 77 year old says she doesn't understand russia's logic. do you, she asks? i don't know. she swims here every morning starting in april. those are the optimists, she says, looking over at a group already in their swim suits in the cold march air. we can't be afraid, she says. no one will ever forget this. >> willie, willie, we've learned two things from this war. well, we knew one all along. one, don't mess with texas. two -- >> or ukraine. >> -- don't cross ukrainians.

don't screw with ukraine. we will sink their ships, our fish will grow fat. >> they offer sunflower seeds. >> grandmothers go up on the first day of the invasion and say here, put these sunflower seeds in your pocket so when you are dead at least -- i'm telling you, you might as well be in midland, texas, in ukraine. these are the wrong people to attack. i must say it really is, and you can look back through history and look at some of the great military philosophers and they will tell you that spirit. >> passion. >> that passion, having that motivation to fight to defend your homeland is worth five, six, seven troops for every one that's defending their homeland. >> yeah. >> yeah, that grandmother story is either texas or "good fellows." it sounds like de niro saying,

do me a favor, put these sun flower seeds in your pocket. why? because you're going to need them when you are dead. there's the pride of the ukraine people, about fight of the ukrainian people and what they want to fight for, and i think vladimir putin assumed ukrainians wanted to be like russia and with russia. boy, was he wrong. >> no way. >> i think the russian people, if you talk to experts about russia, are now seeing that. russian troops are now seeing that. they've been fed a story about ukraine, what it is from the outside. now they're there and they see it was totally wrong headed. they have met an opponent they did not expect to meet with such force and such might, and now we are seeing the ukrainian military with the help of civilians taking back a month in some of the ground it lost already. it is extraordinary. >> it is remarkable. coming up, more u.s. military reinforcements are headed to europe. the pentagon press secretary joins us next hour to talk about

this latest deployment. and from the son-in-law of former president trump to the wife of a supreme court justice, the january 6th committee has a lot on its agenda. the timeline for a new round of possible interviews on capitol hill. we're covering that. we will be back in just a few moments. ♪ limu emu and doug.♪ and it's easy to customize your insurance at libertymutual.com so you only pay for what you need. isn't that right limu? limu? limu? sorry, one sec. doug blows several different whistles. doug blows several different whistles. [a vulture squawks.] there he is. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty♪ ♪ ♪

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♪♪ a live look at the white house at 39 past the hour. a federal judge presiding over a civil lawsuit involving the january 6th house select committee ruled yesterday that former president trump and his legal advisor john eastman likely committed federal crimes in their effort to block the certification of the 2020 election results. in a 44-page decision about whether the committee should receive some of eastman's private communications, the

judge wrote in part this. the illegality of the plan was obvious. based on the evidence, the court finds it more likely than not that president trump corruptly attempted to obstruct the joint session of congress on january 6th, 2021. the judge's comments mark a significant breakthrough for the committee investigating the capitol attack, which is weighing whether to make a criminal referring to the justice department. it is important to note the ruling has no direct bearing on whether trump will face criminal charges in that it involved a civil case in which the burden of proof is less than in a criminal case. trump did not respond to a request for comment. let's bring in right now attorney george conway, congressional correspondent of "the washington post" jackie alemany. let me start with you, george. does it really matter? in the mueller report you had prosecutors say, yeah, sure, he

committed a crime. basically what they said, if he wasn't president, you know, he would be -- they would go after him. you have the manhattan d.a. scuttle an investigation when the prosecutors say he committed multiple crimes. now we have a federal judge saying, yes, he committed multiple crimes. does it really matter? donald trump gets away with everything. is he going to get away with this, too? >> i can't tell you whether he will get away with it but it does matter. this is a federal judge making thinks findings independently on the basis of evidence that's overwhelming. what the judge found here is there was a likelihood donald trump and john eastman violated two federal statutes that essentially do the same thing. they essentially prevent people from corruptly or fraudulently interfering with official proceedings of the u.s. government and from interfering with the official lawful functions of the u.s. government. you know, with both statutes the evidence the judge listed here, which is now public and we've

been discussing it for quite sometime, is overwhelming that, yes, they were trying -- what they were trying to do is conspire to stop the counting of electoral votes pursuant to the 12th amendment of the constitution and the electoral count act, and they were trying to do it through lies and deceit. you know, the thing that -- the defense donald trump is going to have, is going to try to use is that, oh, i really believed this. i really believed this. but the evidence, again, gone through here very systematically by the federal judge is he had every reason not to believe he won the election. he was told this by the cybersecurity and infrastructure agency of the department of homeland security. he was told this by the attorney general of the united states who he made look into this. he was told this by people in the justice department who said -- who followed barr, mr. rosen, the acting attorney general, and then donahue, the

acting deputy attorney general. he was told by the white house counsel his attempt to overturn the election was folly. he was told by raffensperger, the secretary of state in georgia. i would add it wasn't in the opinion, he was told this by the senate majority leader, mitch mcconnell, and he lost 60 lawsuits. all of these things make it impossible to believe that he didn't know that he was committing a fraud, and his defense is basically the bigger the lie the more i should get away with it. the other thing was that we did this out in the open. well, you know, you don't destroy democracy in secret. it has to happen out in the open with big, big lies, and that's what history teaches and that's what we saw leading up to january 6th. >> george, as strong of a case as the justice department would have against donald trump according to this judge if they went after him, it looks like eastman -- the case against eastman may be even stronger

because of his words and deeds. talk about eastman. >> eastman, i mean i think the judge without saying so confirmed the wisdom of eastman's lawyers who told him to plead the fifth and he pled the fifth 146 times in his deposition before the january 6th committee. he's seriously exposed because he was the point man for all of this. he was the one coming up with the legal theories and passing them around and trying to persuade others. in fact, in some of the documents it appears he acknowledged there was no precedent for what he was arguing. his own bad faith is revealed in his documents. as a trained lawyer and law professor and a former supreme court clerk, he -- he knew better, better than trump had to. >> jackie alemany, i want to hear about other moving being made by the january 6th select committee. are they making any headway in terms of getting toward presenting to the public a clear

case? >> they are moving in that direction at the moment. we saw last night the committee take their most recent definitive step forward, moving to hold scan scavino and peter navarro, two close former aides to the president, in criminal contempt. that will get a full vote in the house before being referred to the justice department which will have to decide whether they're going to pick it up for prosecution but there are a bunch of loose ends the committee has to deal with before moving to the public phase of the hearings. as liz cheney told me last night there is still a lot of work to be done despite public hearings scheduled to start in one or two months. that includes people like ivanka trump, congressman scott perry, jim jordan, house minority leader kevin mccarthy. jared kushner is appearing on thursday. now jenny thomas is another moving piece of the puzzle. so there are some really key people including mark meadows as

well. the justice department has yet to make a decision on whether or not they're going to prosecute him for the criminal contempt charge. you could see the frustrations boiling over. but as committee members noted last night at the contempt hearing, hundreds of interviews have been held. hundreds and thousands of documents have been obtained. so they're on their timeline and they're on track to hold the public hearings later this spring. >> hey, jackie. you have some new reporting up just this morning about jenny thomas, of course, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas and the text messages, the exchanges she had with mark meadows as she sought to help overturn the results of the 2020 election and help the white house stage a coup. what more are you hearing about reaction from democrats, the senate judiciary chair dick durbin told nbc news yesterday he believed clarence thomas needs to recuse himself based on these texts from any further review by the supreme court about what happened around the election. what are you hearing today? >> we have fresh reporting

responding to bob costa and bob woodward's reporting about jenny thomas's text exchanges with former white house chief of staff mark meadows and senators elizabeth warren along with a handful of other lawmakers including the chair of the committee and jayapal. they are ramping up on chief justice thomas to recuse thames from january 6th cases going forward, to provide a written explanation for what he failed to previously recuse himself. remember, he was the one supreme court justice who wanted to block trump's documents from the national archives, from providing documents to the january 6th select committee. and also for justice roberts to provide a code of conduct ethics for supreme court justices going forward so there's more of a system for them to actually

state conflicts of interests and act accordingly. >> hey, george. good morning. it is jonathan lemire. former president trump yesterday put out a detailed statement in the wake of the allegation goes in which he went on about a golf shot, an alleged hole in one that he hit and spent a lot of time on that. give us your sense here in terms of what this could mean for the january 6th committee. like in terms of what opening do they have here, both in terms of the public relations and the politics but also the legal aspect of this. and as all of washington waits, what is attorney general merrick garland waiting for? >> well, we don't know what he is doing. i mean it is possible -- you know, he promised in his speech, attorney garland, back in january that he would be working his way, the attorney -- the justice department would be working its way up the chain, and the way they do in organized crime cases. they will follow the evidence wherever it leads. i think that the big result of

yesterday's decision is that the -- it just reemphasizes that the evidence ultimately leads to the oval office. i don't have any reason to believe that judge garland won't be doing that. on the other hand, if there were more direct proceedings looking into that, even grand jury proceedings, witnesses would begin to talk and we would start to have news stories about people being called into a grand jury. all of that said, it is not necessarily a bad tactic for the justice department to allow the january 6th committee, which has been doing a yeoman's job of collecting some of the evidence and studying it as it comes in. so, you know, i think i hold out hope that this will actually lead to some action. i think it is important that it lead to some action or at least a determination whether or not a prosecution could be made. this is the way we have to defend our democracy. i mean we don't have to take up

arms and learn how to use rocket-propelled grenades to defend our democracy the way they have to do in ukraine. the way we do it here, because we have a functioning court system and we have -- and it is not an external threat, it is a domestic threat. what we have to do is enforce the laws that exist on the books. if there ever was a conspiracy to defraud the united states about something, i mean a million dollars, a billion dollars, it is usually money in these cases, but this was our democracy. this was the whole kit and caboodle. if these laws don't apply here, they don't apply anywhere. >> so well put. george conway and "the washington post's" jackie alemany. thank you both very much for coming on this morning. still ahead, we return to our coverage of the war in ukraine. pentagon press secretary john kirby joins us to discuss u.s. troop movements in europe. plus, military analysis from

retired navy admiral james stavridis, where it stands now. later we will speak to the chief of staff to ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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at 55 past the hour, here is a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. a controversial law in florida that critics call the don't say gay bill will take effect in july. governor ron desantis signed the parental rights in education bill yesterday. it bans classroom instruction and conversation about sexual orientation and gender identity for public school students in

kindergarten through third grade. after third gray they say it needs to be age appropriate. parents can sue a school district if they feel an educator violated the law. opponents of the bill say the broad language could open the districts to lawsuits from parents who believe any conversation about lgbtq people or issues to be inappropriate. the senate judiciary committee is expected to vote next monday on the supreme court nomination of judge ketanji brown jackson. the full senate will then vote later in the week. judge jackson needs a simple majority to be confirmed. that means democrats can confirm her in a 51-50 vote, but the white house is hoping some republicans will vote in favor. one of the republicans eyed is senator mitt romney who will meet with judge jackson this afternoon. we'll let you know how that turns out. and in the ncaa women's basketball tournament, number two uconn survives double

overtime against nc state, taming the top seeded wolf pack, 91-87, to send head coach gino oriama and the husband keys to a 14th straight trip to the final four. uconn joins three top seeds in the national semifinals after louisville outlasted number three michigan, 62-50, last night. the cardinals it face number one overall south carolina in the first semifinal on friday before uconn meets defending champion stanford to decide the national title. contenders, willie, that uconn -- i mean i used to cover uconn in connecticut. >> yeah. >> and no gino oreama so i get emotional when i see him win because he is an incredible coach. >> i watched last night with my kids, it was one of the best i have ever watched. they were playing a home game in bridgeport against pa great nc

state team who looked like they were going away but they kept coming back. jonathan lemire, 14 consecutive final fours for uconn. we have to stop for a moment. >> yeah. >> we take them for granted they always will be there. you know, a school in the state of connecticut where gino made it into a powerhouse, you know, a record that john wooden didn't see, none of the great programs in men's or women's basketball history touched what he has done in terms of the way he wins and the way he does it every year regardless of what kind of players he has on the team -- usually five-star recruits we should say. >> yes. >> but injuries this year. back in the final four again. incredible program he built. >> flashback a few decades and it was not a powerhouse at all. it is nothing compared to what the women's have done. 14 straight final fours, that's all you have to say. some years they're the clear number one team in the country, other years they are to battle

for it. they have seasons where they were undefeated but it is extraordinary. it was a spectacular game last night. >> it was. >> one of the best games you will see. a real drama after the dud of the men's final over the weekend. it sets up both sides. should be a fun weekend. >> they have paige becker, a college player of the year u in uconn as a freshman. she was injured and she is back now. another freshman who might be as good as paige eventually. what a program gino has there. >> so great for young girls. to give you guys a sense of -- i'll age myself here, but i covered rebecca lobo when gino was a much younger coach and i was a much younger cub reporter in hartford, connecticut. we followed their road to the championship. he was a great coach then. he loves his players. he's a father to them. he has a special touch in terms of being able to create a winning team that is a family. >> yes.

>> so we'll see what happens. we will be watching. still ahead, will smith apologized for hitting chris rock, but will that be the end of the oscar's drama? what the academy is doing about the incident. somebody needs to do something. plus, we get back to our ukraine coverage at the top of the hour. the latest on the peace negotiations as the deadly war drags on. we are back in one minute. in . that's why at america's beverage companies, our bottles are made to be re-made. not all plastic is the same. we're carefully designing our bottles to be 100% recyclable, including the caps. they're collected and separated from other plastics, so they can be turned back into material that we use to make new bottles. that completes the circle and reduces plastic waste. please help us get every bottle back. so, who's it going to be? tom?

could be danny. guess it's on maggie. should we have another one? talk to us about retirement today. feel comfortable about tomorrow. massmutual. i'm not walking anything back. i was expressing moral outrage that i feel and i make no apology for it. i don't care what he thinks. look, here's the deal. he's going to do what he's going to do. >> president biden stands by his remarks that vladimir putin cannot remain in power, but says he is not calling for regime change. two things can be true at the same time. the diplomatic front, peace talks are underway in turkey right now. on the battlefield ukraine says

it is retaking territory from russia. plus, more u.s. troops are headed to germany. jonathan lemire is still with us. msnbc contributor mike barnicle joins the conversation. joining us now, pentagon press secretary, retired rear admiral john kirby. good to have you this hour, sir. >> admiral, thank you for being with us. so what is the current state? we read the newspapers, we see where they say this war is going. obviously though we lean in a little bit more when we get pentagon reports on what the pentagon's assessment of the fighting is. what's it look like right now in ukraine? >> i would say kind of break it up into three parts, joe. in the north russians are clearly stalled. what we're seeing them do is dig in and make defensive positions, particularly around kyiv. as you rightly reported ukrainians are fighting back. they're actually taking territory back in the north. in the east is russians seem to be prioritizing the donbas area. they're putting more resources in there. they're going on more offensive

operations there. we think they're trying to cut the ukrainian forces off in the east so they can't come to the aid of their colleagues more to the west. and then in the south the russians also continue to be stalled now. there's been a bit of a back and forth down south. originally the russians were really making most of their progress down there, into kherson, on to mykolaiv and mariupol. kherson was in russian hands and now it is contested. they're trying to claw it back. >> president zelenskyy has said he desperately needs planes, tanks, anti-missile and anti-ship systems, suggesting mariupol may fall in the next five to seven days if there is not support. is there a possibility to save mariupol? >> i will tell you what, joe,

the support is going and it is going very fast. in fact, of the $800 million that the president just signed out not long ago, we have already delivered four shipments on that tranche alone and more coming in. in fact, another one arrived today. it is not just the united states, joe. other nations are also contributing security assistance, materials, weapon systems, missiles and all of that stuff flowing in there. when we were in europe just last week secretary austin got a chance to meet with his counterpart, so did secretary blinken. they talked about additional aid they want, more material, more systems, and we're working hard to get it to them as fast as we can. mariupol is under siege, you are absolutely right. it has been under siege for over a week and the ukrainians keep fighting back very, very hard. we are doing the best we can to get them the kind of systems they need in that fight. >> so, admiral, just to sort of confirm what you are saying about the machinery is flowing in there. >> yes. >> is exactly what they need to

try and push back what seems to be a desperate effort to save mariupol actually happening? i mean there are some high-level officials telling us like the pols have certain equipment but they're waiting for the u.s. to give word. is there a coordination problem with this? help me. >> it is a great question, mika. we are helping to coordinate the delivery of weapons and systems other nations are providing. these are lethal systems, missiles, anti-tank missiles, surface-to-air missiles that aren't ours but we're helping to coordinate the delivery into ukraine and it is getting in every single day. we talked to the ukrainians last week about what their needs are and we're doing the best we can to fill their needs. we are trying to focus, from the united states' perspective, we are trying to focus on the things they use most effectively and they know how to use. it doesn't require more

training, they can put them in the field and use them. javelins and small arms and ammunition goes and they're using those things very effectively. >> what about the coordination in the next few days? . >> we expect it will continue. we are again working very hard with other nations to help facilitate the movement on the ground of the things that they're shipping in close by to ukraine. we're being very careful about how we're moving those things in so that they can get to the hands of the ukrainians as quickly as possible, but we have a coordination center set up in europe that we're -- in poland we are working to try to help coordinate those deliveries. >> admiral, good morning. a couple of competing theories out there, as you know, about the strategy now for the russian military, one being that vladimir putin digs in despite the fact he has been stymied by the ukrainian military and civilians with the help of american arms. others are that he pulls back, focuses on the east and perhaps launches missile strikes from russia into ukrainian cities. do you have a sense of where his mind is right now or at least

where the strategy of the russian military may be? >> it is very difficult, willie, to know specifically what mr. putin is going to do on a day-to-day basis. all i can do is tell you what we're seeing happen, and what we're seeing is they're taking defensive positions in the north. they don't appear to be willing or able to move on kyiv anymore. they're just kind of digging in around the city. as i said, the ukrainians are fighting back. what we're seeing, willie, is a prioritization. they publicly admitted this. we saw a few days ago, they were starting to prioritize the donbas area, the eastern part of ukraine, which they have been fighting now over for eight years. now, it is hard to know, willie, whether that's going to be the end all, that's going to be the sum total of what he wants, is to just carve out the east or is he using that as a negotiating tactic. can he make progress in the east and then sit at the table with some sort of leverage? we don't know. it is not really clear. what is clear is that he really blundered in the whole war effort and the initial efforts

to go after kyiv clearly have failed. >> admiral, could you talk a bit more about the supply line that you were just referencing of equipment into ukrainian? >> sure. >> ukraine, obviously a country at war. the degree of difficulty and danger in moving this equipment along the line? >> we have to be very careful, mike, as you might imagine. a lot of these things are being flown in nearby to coordination centers like i was talking about with mika, and then they are trucked into ukraine and they are trucked in on various different routes and those routes vary from day to day, as you might expect. we want to be very careful here to protect the operational security of this movement. it is met by ukrainian drivers. they take it into the country, they deliver it to depots and to sites where the ukrainian armed forces can then pull on that material to go and use on the battlefield. it is a very, very dynamic process, mike, you might imagine. it is constantly varying. we are constantly looking at it.

we want to protect those flows as much as we can. now, mike, we have not seen the russians try to strike these routes yet. they have their hands full just staying on the defense in the north and trying to make some progress in the east, but we are constantly watching for that. >> so, admiral, we have another retired admiral with us who has a question for you, retired four star navy admiral and former nato supreme leader admiral stavridis. >> so far no one has called either of us general, which happens too much. i know my good friend john kirby has experienced that as well. good to see you. >> you too, sir. >> my question would be two fold. one is can you just give us a sense from the pentagon's viewpoint, why are the russians failing? what are the failure points here, thinking perhaps there's exploitable information there over time? and, secondly, admiral, just a quick comment on potential use

of a chemical weapon, are we still seeing kind of flickers of that? thank you. >> yes, sir. it is good to see you. listen, on the chemical/biological weapons i would tell you we haven't seen any indications they plan to imminently use those kinds of systems and we haven't seen indications that those kinds of systems are actually in ukraine yet. it is something as you well know, sir, we are watching very, very closely every day because it would escalate the level of violence in ukraine to a degree where the president has made clear that the international community would have to respond. on your first question, boy, there's a lot there. i would tell you a couple of things. first of all, we think they overestimated their own ability to maneuver and to take and hold ground. they underestimated the ukrainian's ability and willingness to fight for their country and fight, quite frankly, and you know this because you were over there, sir, they underestimated the degree to which the ukrainians have been adequately and very, very professionally trained over the last eight years to use

these systems in the field. that's getting lost a lot in the discussion. i think also they have had significant logistics and sustainment problems. they are still having fuel problems. they're having trouble feeding their troops. definitely they did not plan for a very dynamic way of sustaining their efforts on the ground. number five here is they aren't operating jointly. they don't coordinate between air and ground and maritime the way we do in the united states military, and so we're picking up lots of tensions between commanders because they're not talking with one another, they're not coordinating their operations. lastly, if i may, and it is a long list, it is just the morale. it is a largely conscript force. they were not properly prepared and trained for this operation. many were lied to, didn't even know they were going to invade ukraine, so they're having leadership and morale, unit cohesion problems on the ground every single day. >> admiral, and i guess i should

specify, admiral kirby, it is jonathan lemire. two quick ones. can you different us a sense of the manpower russia has right now? have we seen a pull out of forces in ukraine? give us an update on the battle for the sky. there's no air superiority established one way or the other, is that right? >> that's right. the airspace is contested. the russians have not achieved air superiority. this is interesting because they actually have surface-to-air missile coverage largely from systems based in russia and in belarus that basically blanket the whole country, but the ukrainians have been so nimble and so creative with the way they use the air defense systems available to them they've been able to contest the skies. as for the numbers, again, you know, well north of 150,000 troops contributed to this effort already and are in ukraine. we have not seen them withdraw outside ukraine. now, we have seen some early indications that the russians are trying to reinforce and make

up for some of their losses by bringing troops, for instance, they have in georgia and bringing them into the fight. we are watching that closely, too, but it is very apparent to us that the russians know that manpower is going to be a factor for them. they are losing soldiers every single day. as i said to admiral stavridis, they're still having unit cohesion problems that are amplifying the problems they're having on the ground. >> pentagon press secretary, retired rear admiral john kirby. as always, it is great to have you on. thank you for your insight. >> thank you. >> we hope to hear back from you soon again as this goes on. >> yes, ma'am. a ukrainian internet service provider used by the country's military is recovering from a powerful cyberattack yesterday. expert it are calling it would be of the most harmful cyberattacks since the war began. ukrainian officials say the telecommunications company is working to restore service. the ukrainian cyber agency has not said who is responsible for the cyberattack. russia has denied involvement.

the attack comes a week after president biden said there was evolving intelligence that suggested russia was exploring options to target the u.s. with cyberattacks. admiral stavridis, you have been warning about cyber since the beginning of this conflict. tell me what concerns you the most now. >> first and foremost, just so people appreciate it, when an internet goes down in a place like ukraine it is not just people can't get on facebook and see cute pictures of bassett hounds. the internet is the backbone of military operations, particularly for a country like ukraine that doesn't have the super sophisticated, highly guarded systems that we do for inter-operability. they use the internet for a lot of their operations. >> right. >> this is a blow at their military capability. we should appreciate that. of course, it ripples into the economy, already facing massive

challenges. my takeaway is vladimir putin is, in fact, going to use offensive cyber in the theater of war. the real question, mika, is will he then widen, horizontal escalation, if you will, and use that kind of attack against poland, against the baltic countries, the european states providing assets to this fight. that would be the next logical move on his part. finally, as the sanctions come online and start really biting the russian economy, look for him potentially to go after the united states, banking institutions, those who are supporting. we are at the very beginning, i think, unfortunately, of what i predict will be further escalation in the world of cyber. >> unbelievable. >> admiral, you are a great military tactician and a great historian. i'm curious what history tells us about the president, what vladimir putin may do next. obviously he is unique to his

time and different from anybody who came before him, but when a man who is frankly irrational, who is an autocrat, who doesn't get what he wants in the invasion, which he thought was two weeks into kyiv and installing a new government and instead has been thwarted by the ukrainian military, what is his mindset? what comes next? >> i think a good historical indicator, and i would encourage folks to google the words "winter war in finland." in 1939 the soviet union under stalin, a leader that putin increasingly resembles, envied finland. the fins fought the russians, the soviet troops almost to a standstill. eventually they ground them down, but that peace negotiation could look a lot like what we're going to see here. i think what is unfolding in istanbul today is going to be -- we are going to see some cards

turned over. unfortunately, willie, into the mind of putin is a place any intelligence analyst would love to go. i won't try to insert myself there beyond saying he is very tenacious, he is very prideful, and he is very isolated. those are very bad qualities combined in a single leader, so don't look for any give-up from vladimir putin at this point. check out that "winter war finland 1939." the parallels are almost eerie. >> hey, admiral. we now have a fight in the ukraine where it appears that the russians don't have a single lead commander in charge of the operation on the ground. we now have a fight in ukraine where the russians are literally communicating by cellphone with -- from division to company. could you please explain for those of us who are watching and listening and following this war what happens at the start of a war when literally the command

and control capacity of an army, in this case the russian army, is amputated? >> well, as a former marine you know this well, mike. by the way, your questions about the logistics flow, that's really the center of gravity in this fight in many ways right now. in terms of command and control, that's the life blood of an operation. so when you say amputated, that's a pretty apt image. when the blood flows out it flows away from the brain, and therefore the mind, the command and control, goes white. that's what is really contributing to what john kirby was talking about in terms of the inability of the russian forces to work between air, ground, sea, cyber. they can't put it together in a coherent way. and then, finally, this is at the heart -- and you know this as a former marine -- of morale. if you as a soldier in the

field, if you can't look up that chain of command and feel as though it is coherent, your commander has your back -- by the way, things like food and fuel and warm clothing are coming. if you can't feel that, your morale plummets. final thought, those troops have now been in the field, what, five months. it is cold. they don't feel that sense of command and control that they need. that i think is the heart of what is handy capping the russians, thank god. >> can i add to your list, if you think, if you agree, there are mothers at home, mothers who can use phones. i mean this is -- this is another front where this is not expected. they're supposed to be home now. this is supposed to be done, isn't it? wasn't that what was expected? >> absolutely. you know, we talk about javelins and stingers and tanks and mig-29s. the best weapon on this

battlefield may be right here. it is the cellphone. those videos that go home to the babushkas, the mothers, as you say, who see it and they realize it and they realize the lies of vladimir putin, let's hope that light goes on because, mika, i think the greatest weapon of all may be truth. >> yeah. retired admiral james stavridis. as always, thank you so much for coming on with your insight. still ahead on "morning joe," the academy awards were once again the most watched entertainment program of the year, but audience levels have been on a steady downturn. we will talk about that and how will smith may have changed things this year. plus, wall street's most elite investors are bracing for economic chaos as the war in ukraine drags on. we'll have new reporting on that. you are watching our continuing coverage right here on "morning joe."

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25 past the hour. there is new fall-out this morning from the oscar's slap involving will smith and chris rock. nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer has the latest. >> reporter: this morning is apology after the slap and the backlash. >> oh, wow. >> reporter: will smith breaking his silence, writing on instagram, "violence in all of its forms is poisonous and destructive. my behavior at last night's academy awards was unacceptable and inexcusable. i would like to publicly apologize to you, chris. i was out of line and i was

wrong." >> will smith just smacked the [ bleep ] out of me. >> reporter: with smith also saying, "i deeply regret that my behavior has stained what has been an otherwise gorgeous journey," he still faces the possibility of losing his oscar. the academy saying they condemn the actions of mr. smith and have officially started a formal review around the incident and will explore further action and consequences. >> oh, wow. >> reporter: as the academy comes under scrutiny for allowing smith to stay seated, then accept his award for lead actor -- >> i want to apologize to the academy. >> reporter: -- today there is growing fall-out, both condemning and supporting one of hollywood's most bankable stars. >> some people just snap. he snapped. >> reporter: comedian tiffany haddish told "people" it was one of the most beautiful things i have ever seen. there are still men out there that love and care about their women, their wives. others were outraged by the act

of violence. >> there's no excuse for it, ladies and gentlemen. don't even try to justify it, ladies and gentlemen. >> jada, i love you. "gi jane 2" i can't wait to see it. >> reporter: while rock has yet to release a statement, after his oscar win smith celebrated with his family, but monday he took a more serious tone. "i am embarrassed and my actions were not indicative of the man i want to be." overnight smith's mother telling an abc news affiliate that the actor is a people person and she was surprised by his outburst. >> i have never seen him do that. >> reporter: this morning the mea culpa as the academy decides the consequences of his actions. >> miguel almaguer reporting for us from los angeles. steve battaglia, good to see you this morning. obviously in the context of the war in ukraine and the attempted coup here in the united states,

this pales in comparison but it was one of the most shocking things i have seen on live tv. what did you think as you saw it play out having covered the industry as long as you have? >> it is interesting because it came at a time people are wondering why we have the oscars. it is a 94-year-old institution, it hasn't changed much. it is sort of beginning to outlive its usefulness in terms of like the consumer has so much choice, so many ways to watch movies. i think they're disconnected to the old fashioned movie experience, especially as we haven't been going to movie theaters in the last couple of years and the ratings have been in a steep decline. last year as an all-time low. 10.5 million viewers. as someone who covered the oscars for a long time, it is unimaginable, unfathomable to me they would hit that kind of low. so there are real discussions going on whether the thing had cultural currency, but, you know, this is what happens with live tv. also, you are getting people,

you know, back in a room together for the first time in a couple of years at this scale. it is an old, traditional ceremony that is colliding with a lot of things we talk about today, and that made it kind of interesting, i have to say. >> all it took to make it relevant again was one of the biggest stars in the world punching one of the other biggest stars in the world on live television. let's talk about the reaction inside hollywood. it is fascinating. people who live in the country, let's call them normal people who don't live in hollywood, were shocked a person punched another person on tv. it felt obvious to them, even though the joke perhaps was in poor taste given the medical condition of jada pinkett smith. but i have been surprised talking to people and hearing about reaction around hollywood at the level of defense of will smith. i would say people siding in hollywood with what will smith did. >> i would also say that the black community has expressed some support for will smith, not

for what he did but there was a real understanding of his anger and the whole issue of joking about a black woman's hair. i think it is a cultural discussion that is ongoing. you just saw the passage of something called the crown act, preventing discrimination against women for how they choose to wear their hair. it is a big conversation in that community. so they understood the emotional intensity of this that led to will smith's actions without condoning the fact that he hit somebody on live tv. >> so what is next for will smith? what is his next project? when will he be out making the rounds again? he'll have to face probably a lot of questions about this, and is there any real chance he could have his oscar taken away from him? doesn't roman polansky still have his?

>> i don't think he will not lose his oscar. i think he probably won't be invited next year, and the tradition is that the winner presents the next year's award and that's not a small thing. you are talking about a small club he is a part of. at another point, will has a miraculous career. this is a guy who went from being a rapper to appearic in a music video turned into a sitcom and now he is a global movie star. he has won the top award in the industry. so the fact that chain, that continuity will be broken there by the fact that he will -- that in a public way he wouldn't be there to present the next award would be a big statement. i think it will be a big blemish on him. but, again, you know, money talks. he is a bankable star, and if they find something that works for him he'll do it. >> mika. >> so, steven, i'm curious

because i think that there are a lot of people sort of saying or kind of -- kind of saying it was okay what happened because the joke was bad and here is why and some of the reasons that you have already put on the table. the story this morning could have been about the joke, but, unfortunately, he was not just slapped on the face on stage, chris rock. he was hit really hard. that was a violent -- that was a violent hit, and will smith came walking across the stage and had a lot of time to think about what he was doing and yet he still committed an act of violence on live television. and, quite frankly, as someone who has had her face shamed on national television by a president, i can tell you that you survive these things, a strong woman over 50 can handle a joke like that and perhaps

deal with it in a civil way and have great discussions about why it didn't work. no one needs someone to go attack someone violently for them, especially jada pinkett smith. but the apology 24 hours later that was so created by pr people and lawyers, still not really including chris rock. what i'm building up to here is i'm really at a loss as to the limited, slow reaction to this and the very muted condemnation given what has happened. this is a danger to performers. this is a danger to comedians. this was a violent act on stage. where is not just the outrage but the consequence? >> it was a poor choice, and comedians especially have spoken out about it because they feel that this is something that played out on television. and you are right, there has

been significant punishment. yes, he's contrite now, but it was after a night of partying --? not really. >> -- and celebrating his win. so i think that there's a lot of image control involved. i imagine that the apologies last night were coordinated because i think what happens is that you don't -- is both chris rock and will smith don't want to be defined by this going forward and having it be a topic of conversation, perhaps the first thing that's knocked ukraine off the front page in the last few weeks. yeah, there are a lot -- there's a lot of machinery involved and he made a poor choice. it really is a matter of how far the academy is willing to go in condemning him here. you know, you raise a very good

question. >> well, i'll just, willie, send it back to you, and i will end this segment with a question. if will smith can walk up on stage and take 15 seconds to think about whether or not he's going to bash someone in the face in anger, who else is he hitting? it is just -- it is just a question. >> it is a fair question. while we're here, i just want to highlight some of the things not being talked about at the oscars in the immediate aftermath of that. questlove won his oscar. chris rock was up there presenting best documentary for "summer of soul." ariana debose made history, best supporting history in "west side story." troy kotsur for "coda." what an extraordinary moment that was. "encanta" won.

all overshadowed by will smith. >> again, people complained the oscars were boring. they had become a lumbering event where a lot of political statements, earnest political statements being made by celebrities was turning off a lot of the country. you know, they wanted to energize the show this year. i don't think this is what they were bargaining for, but, again, i mean, you know, this -- live television is really in danger. there's a generation growing up without it. if you are not watching sports, you are streaming. i mean it was apple tv won an oscar, a tech company won the oscar because people are experiencing movies at home. so the -- and live awards and live events are something that a generation of viewers is no longer really -- this is not what they're growing up with. this is not how they're consuming their media. so you have to make these things more compelling, and you have

to -- in order to make it more compelling there has to be a little bit of danger involved. you know, i don't think anyone was -- i don't think anyone was banking on this, but that's what makes people tune in. i mean the ratings were up 56%. you have to believe that people saw this happening on social media or they got texts from their friends and they turned their tv on to sort of see the next chapter of the saga. >> with the drama of knowing he was about to win and he was going to have to get up there and speak about what had just happened. that's probably why a lot tuned in. >> correct. >> steve battaglia of "l.a. times", thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. coming up next, luxury cars, flights on jets, mansions, all paid for with stolen relief money. we have details next on one of the biggest frauds in american history. also ahead, a fresh look at founding father, legendary documentarian ken burns joins us

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the american identity begins when begentleman mind frankly knit the american colonies together. >> franklin is endlessly interesting. >> printer, scientist, revolutionary. >> he is the only founding father who evidently had a sense of humor. >> his investigation is broader than the american revolution. >> the things that he spoke of, that he wrote about had a certain amount of power. >> he really was an american genius. >> part of the trailer for the new pbs two-part documentary that looks at the life and legacy of one of america's best-known founding fathers, benjamin franklin. joining us, ken burns and walter isaacson, author of the best-selling biography,

"benjamin franklin," an advisor for the documentary. good morning to you both. feels like you were here talking about mohammadali. >> it feels like it. benjamin franklin is talking to this moment. that's the great gift of history. as falkner says, it is not was but is. when you talk about franklin and inoculations and franklin and american identity and divisions and overcoming partisanship, these are the issues of today. >> you have done so many of these and done them so well, i'm curious how you begin a process. here is a man in benjamin franklin the public knows generally. how do you attack a life as significant as his? >> we set off to learn about him. i'm burdened with the same superficial and conventional wisdom of most people. i think the lightning has to strike the kite. i don't know that he's an enslaver of human beings. i don't get a lot of this.

but you read a lot. walter's wonderful, wonderful book, talked to other scholars, begin writing and interviewing people and looking for the images. remember, no photographs, no footage. you have in the 18th century -- yeah, in the 18th century a bigger visual challenge to do. then it is just trying to tell -- sift together and figure out what the story is, that has a kind of contrary dimension to it that will automatically be there. we don't have to look for the things that are about today. human nature doesn't change, so it is always similar to how we are now. franklin is just the most interesting person of the 18th century. he is our greatest diplomat, he is our greatest scientist, he is our greater writer, he is our greatest humorist. he is older than the folks in the revolution. he is deeply flawed but searching for something better. he is the person, as walter says

in the clip, what it means to be an american. he is the first to perceive the disparate 13 colonies might be connected. it is way too early for anyone else to get it, join or die, but he is the one who begins to perceive what it might mean not to be just british subjects across the ocean in these colonies but something else, and that something else became one of his inventions, one of his creations, the united states of america. >> you know, one of my many old man, get-off-my-lawn complaints of the culture we're a part of is one of the great issues confronting this country is we don't teach our children no matter their age our history. >> that's right. >> we just don't in public schools any longer. as a result it falls to people like you and walter, from civil war, vietnam, fdr, ben franklin. what is your view on the visual

history aspect, of people learning our history through visual history? >> you know, the greatest mechanical invention, mike, is the book. >> yeah. >> right. it still is. we live and we have to admit in a very visual culture. i'm a filmmaker, i want to tell stories visually. we are drawn by the word so it is a way to draw people in. we hope it invites further story. if you talk about benjamin franklin, this is the guy on the $100 bill. it is the largest denomination in circulation. it is the symbol of wealth. he is the symbol of pulling yourself up by your boots straps but he's not that. all of his envengss he held without patent. it was never untethered from civic responsibility, from civic duty. you see what i mean? when he can be adopted, say, by libertarians and say, oh, this is what success looks like, you have just torn that $100 bill in

half and you only have half of it. the rest has to be connected to doing good for others, which is what he spent his life trying to do. those are the lessons that underline the real story of america. the real story of someone as central as benjamin franklin to who we are and the things that we have to continue to communicate as these things get lost, washington's wooden teeth, never tell a lie, throwing a coin across the potomac don't happen, none of those things are true. we have to go back to the things that are true and tell complicated stories about who we are because people after a while when you just give the sanitized madison avenue view, it just disappears. it is like sky writing. it dissipates with the first zephyr and you are left with wooden teeth, not true, you are left with lightning striking the kite and you move on. there's so much more to this person. he is so central to who we are. know him, know us. when cornwallace surrenders at

yorktown washington is with several thousand continental soldiers armed and equipped by france, thank you, franklin, and cornwallace can't escape because there's a fleet in the harbor. thank you, mr. franklin. >> walter, there's been a renewed focus in recent years about the founding fathers and slavery. two basics, jefferson had slaves, washington had them and released them upon his death. talk to us about benjamin franklin and his history with slaves and what he believed as he died. >> benjamin franklin does the moral arc our nation is aspiring to do, which is early on as a young tradesman two enslaved people worked in his printing shop, and they eventually wander away. he had advertised slavery in "the pennsylvania gazette," his

newspaper. but then it gets deeper into him it was not just a mistake, a sin, something he had done badly. through his life he kept a ledger of the problems he had caused and how he tried to rectify it. so he becomes one of the founders of a school for enslaved children and freed slaves. he then becomes the president of the society for the abolition of slavery. so you see what he does is what our country does, is wrestle with an original sin and try to rectify it. so that's why i think franklin is, as ken burns just said, a deeper person than the other founders in many ways because we get to see ourselves as we try self-improvement. that's what franklin called it over and over again. how do i make myself morally better? that's what our country aspires to do. >> walter, as you look at the

long career and life of benjamin franklin, it is fascinating to see as a younger man he was a financial success, he was an inventor. he did all of the things we know he did before he even entered the realm of politics. as ken mentioned he was a full generation older than the rest of the founding fathers and the rest of those revolutionaries and became something of a diplomate, negotiating with france, for example. what was the significance of him sort of being the old wise man in that group. >> you know, there are a lot of smart people in the founding of america, from jefferson to madison and they got a lot of things wrong. and you realize sometimes that smart people are a dime a dozen. what matters is being innovative the way franklin was and being wise the way he was. he said he could never master the virtue of humility but he mastered the art of showing um ilt. so he would listen to other people. he is the founding father who brings people together, he is the founding if a err who says

compromisers may not make great hire rows but they make great democracies. he is the founding father we most need today. during his lifetime he donated to the building fund of each and every church in philadelphia and at one point they were building a new hall, still called the new hall right next to independence hall and he wrote the fundraising documents. he was the mufti of constant noble was to preach the gospel of mohammed we should listen and learn. on his death bed he was the largest contributor to the first synagogue in philadelphia. when he died instead of just his minister accompanies his casket to the grave all 35 ministers, preachers and priests marched with him to the grave. that was the system that we were trying to create back then and we are still fighting for, whether it be in ukraine or in the united states today. >> ken, lessons from his life today to a contemporary

audience. >> i think walter's theme of that is really important. the importance of compromise, of coming together, that it's all right to do for self, but the good we do together far surpasses as walter quotes franklin the good we do alone, and that's it. we are all connected to one another. i mean, he basically gets unum in his gut, you know, and the pluribis is the important part of it. he is the founding father that is not static. all of these guys are very smart, geniuses but he is the one that is constantly improving so he can help forge the compromises that create and some of those tragic compromises that create the united states but without those compromises there is no united states, i'm thinking of three fists of a person. in one of his last acts he proposes to that government that he helped create the abolition of slavery. the senate ignores him, the house votes it down and the southerners are in huge fury and he then writes an essay in the

person of an i'm ma'am, a muslim preach, using the same arguments as the representative of from georgia arguing why we should keep our white slaves in north africa, he uses the same arguments. suddenly you see the absurdity, he's always changing and in him we see the literal embodiment of the pursuit of happiness, getting better. >> you know, based on this conversation alone i can think of an audience that's critical for this documentary to be seen and with the two of you, walter and you present at the presentation of the documentary, 535 guests otherwise called the congress of the united states. >> they've got to see it. it's all about -- it's all about trying to forge that. he uses the old carpenter's thing about making a good joint, something that will last for centuries and that has to do with compromise. shaving off one side, shaving off the other and then you have a joint that will hold together. that's walter from our film.

>> so, ken, let me ask you how does franklin stack up against all the other greats, especially -- you did jefferson, compare jefferson and franklin especially. >> well, you know, i think jefferson is magnificent and he's arguably -- as george will says in that film from 20 years ago the man of the last millennium, joe, but franklin is the one who can move. franklin is the one who can see the errors of his way, franklin is the one who is not static and fixed and he is the guy who helps the men, he is on the same committee that's writing the declaration, they're going to let this beautiful stylist thomas jefferson do it but he says we hold these truths to be sacred. franklin said, no, we are in the age of enlightenment, we hold these truths to be self-evident. this is a huge contribution. he gets the fact that this is beautiful poetry, some of the best words ever written but he's going to make a couple of

adjustments that help bring us into a new age and help us go forward with the kind of optimism and possibility, the things that we aspire to that walter was just talking about. >> i cannot wait to dig in on the two-part documentary "benjamin franklin" it airs next week, april 4th and 5th on pbs, a must watch like everything you do, ken. great to see you. walter isaacson, great to have you here as well. still ahead this morning we will return to our coverage of the war in ukraine. nbc's richard engel brings us the latest as a new round of peace talks get under way. plus, we will speak live with the chief of staff to ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy. it's all coming up next on "morning joe." for ing up next on "morning joe." fo .

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walk that back? did your words complicate matters? >> number one, i'm not walking anything back. the fact of the matter is i was expressing the morale outrage i felt to the way putin is dealing and the actions of this man, just brutality. half the children in ukraine. i've just come from being with those families and so -- but i want to make it clear i wasn't then nor am i now articulating a policy change. >> all right. top of the hour here. president biden stands by his comments that vladimir putin cannot remain in power and ukraine makes advances on the ground, retaking territory even as russia tries to recalibrate. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, march 29th. jonathan lemire and mike barnicle are still with us. a new round of peace talks between russia and ukraine is under way in turkey right now. a lot has been reported about what is and is not on the table

in those negotiations. we will talk to the chief of staff to president zelenskyy in just a moment, but first nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the latest from kharkiv. >> reporter: ukrainian and russian delegations met for the first time in two weeks for peace weeks in the city of istanbul. the mood was described as cold, no handshake at the start. ukrainian officials say they are only looking for a ceasefire and will not surrender one inch of territory to russia. the ukrainian side more confident after recent battlefield successes. ukrainian troops are proving to be a tough underdog, clawing back territory from russia around kyiv. retaking a town east of the capital. and ukrainian officials say the kyiv suburb of irpin where russia launched one of his earlier and most notorious attacks on civilians, killing a family escaping the fighting.

the mayor of irpin says the suburb was liberated. while russia is losing ground or perhaps because of it russian forces continue to carry out indiscriminate attacks against a ukrainian towns and cities. in a hospital in kharkiv this morning, the hallways are full of ukrainians wounded by russian attacks. they are in the halls because russia dropped two bombs near the hospital, blowing out the windows. andre, an electrician, was in his home on the outskirts of kharkiv when suddenly russian forces he says bombed the area. i heard a whistle and then i lost consciousness, he says. he woke up to find most of his thigh muscle gone, the bone showing. he says he somehow managed to get his wife and daughter into their car and even drive, but as they were leaving russian forces hit the moving car. i felt the car lift up, andre says.

his wife tatiana, 24 years old and studying to be a hairdresser told him i will be with you forever. it would be her final words. andre was recovered by ukrainian troops. his injured daughter was taken by relatives. he has no idea where. his wife's remains, he says, are still in the car, too dangerous to reach her for burial. >> why do you think this is happening? >> i've thought a lot about this and i don't know why, he says. we weren't bothering russia. we are the same people. but they just seem to want to kill us and make us handicapped. so many stories like that of families whose lives were torn apart in the city of kharkiv and even more in the city of mariupol further south where morgues are overflowing. mika? >> all right. richard engel reporting. so, jonathan lemire, we have breaking news, the bbc reporting it right now. russia's deputy defense minister says russia will, quote,

radically reduce military activity outside of kyiv and other cities in the north. that just coming at 7:58 eastern time breaking on bbc. russia is going to radically reduce, according to their deputy defense minister, radically reduce activity, military activity in the north. so if, in fact, they do this, this is a continuation of what we've heard over the past several days where they're going to try to consolidate their forces, most likely in the south to at least lock down the donbas region and possibly have a land bridge from donbas to crimea. >> yeah, this seems to further what they said on friday, that they were going to focus in that bonn das region. it's interesting this news conference just wrapped up from this deputy defense minister, he said in part they are reducing this in order to establish more trust ahead of peace talks, which is certainly the most open

we have heard from moscow about looking to come forward with some sort of ceasefire agreement here and also we should note, and i know we are about to be joined by a member of president zelenskyy's staff, that ukrainian officials are quoted as saying in the after math of these talks that the conditions would be right for zelenskyy to meet with putin. we know that president zelenskyy has asked for that a few times now, it's been the russians who have denied t but it will be interesting what developments they're seeing that gives them some encouragement that maybe a ceasefire is there. u.s. officials have approached this cautiously throughout, but there seems to be more of a flicker of hope here for some sort of negotiation than we've seen in a while. >> all right. joining us now chief of staff to ukrainian president zelenskyy andriy yermak. we'd like to start there. what have you heard about this, russia planning to radically reduce activity around kyiv, and can you add to it?

>> good morning. first of all, i'd like to say that i hope that today americans wake up the sun and peaceful sky, unfortunately it's not happened in my country. tonight it was near of the morning it was bombing of the -- our beautiful city mykolalv. it rattled buildings. yes, it was a very terrible picture and for this moment we know that seven persons killed and more than 20 persons was damaged. concerning the operations about the situation around kyiv, yes, we last couple of the days have

a very hard fighting of our army, of the small cities around kyiv, and we can see that our people, our soldiers, our heroes, it's a little bit go down the russian troops from kyiv, but the situation is still very difficult and we continue to fight as well for other directions, but i cannot say about the most difficult situation that now continues in mariupol. they continue the full blockage of this city. very slowly some people through the difficult working of our

military, our negotiations group, take the possibility that the people can go out from the city, which still in very bad situation. they have no food, they have no water and it's happened in our time, it's happened practically now that in the center of europe having this terrible war and having this absolutely military crime of russia. >> we're talking with the chief of staff to president zelenskyy, andriy yermak. sir, i'd like to ask you what at this moment does ukraine need from the west and how does that compare to what you are getting? >> you know, that, first of all,

i can say that a friend in need is a friend indeed and we are absolutely grateful for united states for the support which you will provide for us. this is political and economical and military technical. no other nation has helped us this much so far. at the same time we need more. we need more to win this war. they barraged our cities with rockets and missiles several times of the day, every day. we need the fighter jets and long range missiles to close our sky. we need heavy weapons. long range artillery systems and

multilaunch rocket systems, mlrs. we need anti-ship missiles, we need killer drones. we need them as soon as possible. we are asking for weeks. in the meantime our people have been dying by thousands. how many more deaths should be enough to make the land lease war? it's necessary. if somebody knows it's necessary to tell us how many numbers, 10,000, 100,000? how many more people have to lose their houses, homes and run to leave. they are millions of refugees already we have during this war. is it not enough? the weapons are good to stop the

russian troops but it's not enough to break moscow's aggressive ambitions, not enough to stop this war. the only way to do it is to punish the russia's economy. it's why, of course, it's very important to continue all the sanctions. it's necessary that new sanctions will be issued every week and maybe two times, three times in a week because if this war is not stopping, it means that it's not enough these sanctions. we are working very closely and share our opinion and we appreciate that our partners listen to us, but once again, every day, every hour dies our

people, dies, killed our children, bombing practically nonstop on our cities, some of them it's practically destroyed. this war, which very similar as happened in the second world war and very similar we saw how nazis, fascists in territory of europe, it's happened in this day. it's necessary to stop. it's very important to stop. but you can see and all the world sees how ukrainian, our brave nation, is fighting more than one month and we will be fighting until our victory. but i'm absolutely sure that victory of ukraine will be

victory of united states, it will be victory of all free world. >> yes. mr. yermak, let me ask you about mariupol. we've spoken about the battles around kyiv, we've spoken about how ukrainian forces have bravely pushed back russian forces and are launching counter-offenses, now, of course, the russians trying to consolidate the south and continue their inhumane bombardment of mariupol. what do you need specifically for mariupol and talk about how that city is on the edge now. how close is that city to falling into russian hands without the right kind of help? >> the situation in mariupol is terrible. it's still terrible. one of the results which we expect from today's negotiation

in istanbul is the possibility that humanitarian corridors will be open and we get the opportunity to bring the food and water for the people who stayed because a lot of people want to go from the city, for them it's not acceptable that russian soldiers will be occupied this city in the azov sea. it means that these people decided to died but not leave the city because, you know, it's now mariupol it's a symbol, it's a symbol of the fighting of our soldiers, of our heroes and for our civilian people. it means that for us it's very important to help.

and, of course, it's one of the most important items which every day and couple of times of days discussed in some meetings with the president, with our military, our governments, how to help to survive the people in mariupol. and, of course, if today -- because just now i received information a couple of minutes ago they finished the negotiation in istanbul. we have the opportunity to listen some briefings of our delegation, but immediately after our conversation i will have the talking with our people from istanbul and receive the full information. if we decided and then we can

open this humanitarian corridor to mariupol, because once again, it's catastrophic. i can say that russians make in mariupol the same which happened practically the same which happened during the second war in the blockade of leningrad which is now called st. petersburg. >> mr. yermak, thank you for being with us this morning. there is a report in today's "wall street journal" that two of your ukrainian negotiators along with russian billionaire abromovich were suspected to have been poisoned during peace talks in kyiv a couple weeks ago. can you confirm whether that actually happened? >> you know, me as you read about this news in some media, i know that all the members of the delegations from ukraine which

mentioned in this information it's right, they participated in negotiations and it's not any moment just to think that it can be happened. the same i see today among the russian delegations i see mr. abramovich, he looks healthy. this is my answer. >> okay. so you don't have any definitive information about whether your ukrainian delegates in that peace talk were poisoned at this hour? >> you know, that the war today, the current war in the world, it's not just military, it's war of the information. it means that we are up practically every day on the informational attacks from the side of russia. it means it's necessary for the

viewers, for the people in the world very carefully check all information which sometimes appears because a lot of fakes, a lot of absolutely prepared and especially prepared informational attack because russia wanted and can't see how united ukrainian society, how ukrainians united around the president, how ukrainians today together we for all of our future history forget about east and west, now all ukrainians stick together and we show to all the world how it's possible to fight for our land, for our country. and this is the most important. >> mr. yermak, given what's happened in your country over

the past several years, but especially over the past month, if a meeting were possible to be held between president zelenskyy and president putin, my question to you and thus to president zelenskyy is why would you believe anything that vladimir putin said? >> you know, i can say that all the time that president zelenskyy occupied the position of the president, and it was in his presidential campaign programs he always said my goal is to stop the war in ukraine and back all our territories and all our people.

it does not mean that we believe somebody or not believe. we will do and continue to do our best that it's in that time stopping the war just in donbas, now we are stopping this big aggression to altherr tore of ukraine, but the goal is the same, we want to live in the peaceful ukraine. we want to back our territory. it's our principle, it's our philosophy. we never go for any compromise concerning our independence, concerning our sovereignty and territorial integrity. and it's not a question of the belief. sometimes you need -- you have to negotiate this world politics, who is your neighbors. you have to negotiate the people

to whom you may -- not be trust for, but it's necessary to do because you do all the best for your country. i not agree that zelenskyy how you ask to believe. he do his job and continue to do the job and do the best for our country, and we are not stopping until we are really bring to our land a peace and to back all our territories and back all our people. >> andriy yermak, chief of staff to ukrainian president zelenskyy. we thank you for being with us and we certainly thank you and certainly i understand and believe and i think all of us do that you are not only fighting for your nation, you're fighting for your continent of europe, you're fighting for freedom in

the west. thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. thank you. and thank you for your support. >> thank you so much for being with us. greatly appreciated. so, mike barnicle, you will remember this, i was a little bit younger playing tee ball, but still my dad every night we would watch walter cronkite and you remembered -- i remember, i know you do, too, as well that in vietnam whenever we wanted to get to the negotiating tables in paris and perhaps have a better chance of striking an agreement, we would begin bombing campaigns, with he would begin offenses to negotiate with the communist government in north vietnam. that never really worked out and we are seeing the same unfold here where we heard several weeks ago that vladimir putin

was going to continue bombing civilian areas because he wanted to be in a stronger position when he negotiated. well, two weeks later he is at an even weaker position and if what we hear out of these negotiations are, in fact, true, he understands, it seems, that he's going to be in an even weaker position two weeks from now. what's your take on, first of all, what chief of staff to president zelenskyy said this morning, but also where negotiations seem to be headed between the ukrainians and russians. >> first of all, joe, you raised in the way back machine there one of the most shameful periods in american history, the christmas bombing of hanoi i believe in the christmas season of 1972 in the hopes that it would end the war and the war dragged on for three more years. but on this one i sense and i keep hearing from people who know far more about this war and the ongoing daily activities in the war than i do, that the

great fear is that the russians do withdraw forces, as they have apparently announced in the last hour from western ukraine, they take their troops out and they move south or they move back to russia where they can use their artillery to further destroy ukrainian cities like mariupol and others. and that's the fear that they withdraw troops and we give the false illusion that maybe a peace offering is in the near future, we don't know that, but they will stick to the russian rule book of war, destroy and terrorize an entire country and an entire population. >> and of course, jonathan lemire, every day they do that will be a day that there will be more pressure on joe biden and other nato leaders to step it up, to get the jets in there, to get the tanks in there, to get the -- and i do wonder, again, whether vladimir putin who has gotten away with mass murder

over the past 20 years in his invasions of georgia, of chechnya, of syria, ukraine, i just wonder if he finally understands that not only he has an american president but he also has a nato, a fully engaged nato who is not going to allow him to continue behaving as he has the last 20 years. >> joe, while we were doing that interview with zelenskyy's chief of staff i was texting with a biden administration official about the progress seemingly coming from these peace talks and the answer was basically, well, russia hasn't kept their word once since. so there is some degree of skepticism here about how meaningful these signs are. having said that, again, it should be reiterated this seems to be the most the russians have been willing to say to this point. so certainly it's going to be

taken, though appropriately with a grain of salt, there is some hope that maybe it can turn to something. there is some skepticism to how serious they could be, they might shift tactics. and certainly the pressure is growing and continues to grow on the president and his allies to keep weapons funneling to ukraine as russia even in a limited way can still reek havoc on their cities. >> joe, you've raised a really interesting point here. without the president of the united states, without joseph r. biden at the helm, there is no nato coming together and the ukrainians are in a very difficult position without his voice and leadership. it raises the other question is the united nations that ineffectual that we have not heard really a word from the united nations and i have no idea what they're doing, if anything, on the ground in ukraine, but the idea of a humanitarian highways to help people who are in constant peril, starving to death, literally starving to death,

where is the united nations in all of this? >> that's a great question. i do want to say, again, speaking of what joe biden has done in this crisis, what nato has done in this crisis, is remarkable, it's unprecedented, if you look at the economic sanctions, it's unprecedented if you look at how president biden has worked with nato and the commitments that we've gotten from nato and from nato countries that we have never gotten before and also from countries outside of nato we have ever gotten before. i have to say that's why it's really -- and i'm sorry, i'm just talking for myself and nobody else -- it's why it's so disgusting, absolutely disgusting and unamerican to see columnists in major newspapers, to see talk -- talkers on certain cable news networks eviscerate the american president in the middle of the worst crisis, closest we've been

to world war iii actually since the cuban missile crisis because of what they consider a gaffe. again, that gaffe, the only thing that they took away from a historic speech, historic -- the only thing they took away for joe biden doing what they celebrated time and time again in the 1980s when ronald reagan did it, when he got ahead of his state department, when he got ahead of his diplomatic core, when he got ahead of even his own white house, when he joked about bombing russia in the next five minutes, when he talked about the evil empire, when he time and time again said things that made polite washington gasp. reagan was right, of course, we won the cold war historically, i know a lot of people on the left say it's because of gorbachev. gorbachev had no choice because of ronald reagan and democrats like dr. brzezinski, scoot jackson and a lot of republicans

what they all did together to defeat the soviet union, they were tough. now these same people who i have to say a lot of them are spewing russian disinformation are now attacking joe biden because they're saying he had a senior moment. really, a senior moment? a senior moment? after defending donald trump for four years just vomiting out word salad. you actually have the audacity to say that? it's disgusting and it's unamerican. and, yes, yes, i would say this regardless of who the president of the united states was, if they were trying to bring nato together, if they were trying to defend democracy when russia was attacking a freedom-loving nation. that's what's happening here and, you know, they have no shame so i suppose we will just keep telling the truth. they can continue their lies. they can continue worshipping the war, they can continue

looking to putin for an example as they have in the past. seriously what's wrong with them? we will have a lot more on these developments that are unfolding right now. again, russia saying that they're going to radically reduce attacks around kyiv. we will be right back. reduce attacks around kyiv we will be rhtig back. trelegy for copd. [coughing] ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪ ♪ breeze driftin' on by... ♪ if you've been playing down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, it's a new day,... ♪ ...it's time to make a stand. start a new day with trelegy. ♪...and i'm feelin' good. ♪ no once-daily copd medicine... has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. it also helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia,

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this phone? more concert tickets. and not just for my shows. switch to xfinity mobile for half the price of verizon. that's a savings of over $500 a year. switch today. >> translator: it was perhaps understandable that during that initial phase he used certain authoritarian methods in his leadership. but using authoritarian methods as a policy for the future, that i think is wrong. i think that's a mistake. is -- you know, wherever you go, even to africa, you see that

where you have leaders that rule for 20 years or more, you see what happens around them. the only thing that is important in such situations for those leaders and people around them is holding on to power. i believe that this is something that is happening now in our country. and that was, of course, former president of the soviet union mick kale gorbachev more than a decade ago. that authoritarian rulers such as vladimir putin shouldn't be in power for too long and certainly if they are will not give power up easily. with us the historian who interviewed gorbachev, he is the president and committee of the linden b. johnson foundation. also joining for us this

conversation tom brokaw. tom, you were talking with us about barbara tutman's classic "the march of folly." we seem to be mired between two barbara tuckman novels or histories. one, of course, "the march of folly" but the other "the guns of august" with where super powers stumble into a world war. how is this going and what can we learn from tuchman and history. >> we can always learn from history and tuchman's book was a classic all the way back to as you know not only vietnam but the trojan horse wars as well, about how they went completely off the rails. the current state of vladimir putin reminds me of that theme from boxer mike tyson. he said everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. guess what, putin is getting

punched in the mouth right now. from the beginning putin has been a war monger with a sour face. he obviously thought he could run over ukraine while president biden was under constant attack by fox news and ever more poisonous right wing political organizations. putin thought ukraine's president was just a boy comedian. president biden and president zelenskyy are not in hiding like putin. they are taking him on, thank god, but the senseless death of brave ukrainians, men and women and children, the destruction of a fragile ukrainian economy bombs go on and for what in the final analysis? where are the so-called smart men of russia, the oligarchs who have gotten filthy rich because of putin. the march of folly goes on and on and more people tragically will die as a result. >> and, mark, the consequences, you know, tom brings up, i

think, brilliantly "the march of folly" and tuchman's examination of these wars from troy all the way through vietnam, but here you not only have the ukrainians whose country is just getting savaged, it's happening internally inside of russia with their economy, their military, my god, if this continues for another six months this would be along the lines of the spanish armada where an entire military gets smashed to pieces. what is the end game here when vladimir putin is not only destroying another country, but his own? >> you know, i think, joe, that vladimir putin is thinking about his legacy. he's been in power for over 20 years and i think he doesn't look at the soviet union as the latest incarnation of the soviet empire, he looks back at centuries of russian rule in that area. the different empires that have

come. and he looks at his legacy. he wants to be putin the great, just as we had -- you had alexander the great and you had peter the great and catherine the great, these strongmen who formed an empire in order to protect the vast open borders of russia and to essentially aggrandize russia for the world. that's what vladimir putin wants for his legacy and he doesn't care about the cost. >> mark, breathtaking your interview with gorbachev 11 years ago, and even then he understood, mark, the dangers of what lay ahead for russia if putin remained in power. >> and it's stunning, joe. if you look back atomic ail gorbachev today he has a 1% approval rating in russia. this is the man who is a hero in the west for ending the cold war peacefully, the soviet union

simply was not economically viable. so he dissolved the soviet union ending the cold war, winning the nobel peace prize and has been vilified by vladimir putin and others and, again, has a 1% approval rating in that country. it is absolutely astounding. >> tom, you've obviously not only did you have the first interview with vladimir putin for a western reporter after he became president, you obviously were there when the berlin wall, when the announcement was made that east germany was shutting down and that all of these events were going to be happening, going to be cascading. talk about -- talk about the differences between a leader like gorbachev and vladimir putin and what you saw in each of these men, and if you could have seen -- if you could have predicted the outcomes for either of these men and their

legacies. >> joe, it's worth remembering the night the berlin wall came down one of the great, great moments in history, freeing all those people on the other side of the iron curtain, vladimir putin was a kgb agent and he has openly said that he wept that night, not out of celebration, but out of sorrow because of what was happening. he didn't want anybody in his country to be free to make decisions for themselves and he has pursued that ever since. that tells you more than you need to know about it. i had several interviews with him and he was never anything but cold-blooded and never anything but a guy who was going to try to run the russian -- all the parts of russia in a way that he wanted to, which was as a kgb agent. >> mark, obviously as the present ceo of the lbj

foundation, obviously you understand the massive shadow that the vietnam tragedy casts upon lbj's legacy despite the extraordinary domestic accomplishments that he achieved. we talk again, we go back to tom talking about "the march of folly" and madeleine albright wrote an op-ed before the invasion saying exactly what was going to happen to vladimir putin if he went into ukraine. so many people on our show did the same thing. and what madeline predicted is exactly what happened. and yet he continues. when are we going to learn the lessons of vietnam, of afghanistan? for the russians as well as for the americans. you wonder with that backdrop how he could have gone in and why he's still there. >> you know, war seems inevitable as long as mankind exists, joe. and you have tyrants like

vladimir putin who want more power. george w. bush told me a wonderful story about putin coming to the ranch and he introduced putin to barney as he did all guests. he loved his dogs, the bushes just love their dogs. when george w. bush went to russia to visit vladimir putin, putin introduced bush to his dog and he said bigger, faster and stronger than barney. so you could see that putin is so much driven by ego and the waste and the devastation that comes from that we are seeing with this war. you see it through the course of history and i just don't think mankind will change as long as you have tyrants like vladimir putin who come to power. >> tom brokaw, as always a great honor to speak with you. thank you so much. and presidential historian and the president and ceo of the lbj

foundation, mark updigrove thank you as well. fantastic conversation. we appreciate it. we will be right back with more "morning joe." we will be right back with more "morning joe. and it's easy to get a quote at libertymutual.com so you only pay for what you need. isn't that right limu? limu? sorry, one sec. doug blows a whistle. [a vulture squawks.] oh boy. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty♪

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it's 53 past the hour. let's get you updated on the major developments in the russian invasion of youk. russia's military says it will drastically reduce operations near kyiv and a northern city where hospitals and schools have been attacked.

the russian deputy defense minister says the move is to increase trust in peace talks between the two countries. it remains to be seen whether russia will follow through with this, but we are following this. both sides are negotiating today in istanbul, turkey, and we're taking a look at the global economic impact of the war in ukraine. joining us now, columnist insider lynette lopez. her latest report is entitled "a bone-crushing recession: wall street's top investors warn that the war in ukraine will provoke widespread economic chaos." lynette, you write in part, "this beyond the massive volatility that the invasion will continue to inflict on markets, war is also forcing wall street to undergo a frenzied gut check. it's not just the u.s. government that wants nothing to do with russia. it's wall street's client base as well." so the challenge for wall street's biggest investors is

three-fold -- build a portfolio that survives the washout, make sure you're not holding russian assets, and for the love of god, return any russian clients' money before old uncle sam lowers the boom." so, lynette, how does this, though, filter down to the economy and the wallets of the american people? >> well, the most close way that we will feel this in our wallets is through energy prices. i discuss this in the story as really the way that this recession could become difficult for lower-income people. there are millions of people, about 80 million people in europe, who feel energy in security, whether that's from filling their gas tanks or heating their homes. they're stretching their money to be able to make those costs. as costs go up because of the war, those people will start feeling pressure and what was once 12% of a person's income becomes 20%.

and that will dig in and for homeowners across europe and here in the united states where people are feeling especially vulnerable. >> i was going to ask about that. in the united states, you talk about widespread economic chaos that spreads to the united states, oil embargoes, things that are under way. what does that look like to the average american as this plays out over weeks and months? where will they be hit? >> that looks like inflation. especially food inflation. russia and ukraine being 25% of the world's wheat supply. that is a dangerous situation if they're not able to get in the fields this spring and plant. we have russia as a top producer of fertilizer in the world, so, okay, maybe they get to the fields but there's very little fertilizer. i believe and my sources believe that russia will find ways to get goods out of its country, whether it's through china -- that's why we know that chinese officials have been in washington poring over the sanctions text to make sure what they can and cannot do to figure

out loopholes. as that shakes out, maybe we'll lose 3 million barrels of oil a day rather than the 7 million or the 6 million that we thought we were going to lose because of u.s. sanctions and sanctions from other countries. but it's going to be tough working that out. -in the near term. but i do think, and my sources do think, that we will figure it out. as long as we are able to secure the 80 million europeans who are suffering energy insecurity, as long as we're able to weatherize homes, come up with new sources of green energy and hold it together for the next two years, we can get through this. the question is what happens to russia after that. because without companies like schlumberger, halliburton, they can't extract the oil that is in their land. so what is going to happen with russia? we have russia potentially being a failed state that is very,

very angry, and then we have to work out diplomatically how we engage with them, do we help them. on wall street, my sources are telling me their clients want nothing to do with russian assets, and that is -- once that starts, once money managers start kicking russia out of their portfolios, it's hard to reverse. >> quickly on that point, with the russian economy collapsing, stock market closed for weeks, companies pulling out, if the russian economy crashes, where does it leave the rest of us? >> well, they're gone. it creates a dangerous security environment for us. again, where do we get steel? where do we get fertilizer? russia is a country of commodities and inputs. the beginning of the supply chain, not necessarily the finished goods. we are telling them they can't have these finished goods,

semiconductors and all this technology that makes our technology work. so where we're left is with russia that is, you know, blasted to the past and a world that is missing several key inputs for the things that we need from cars to, you know, electricity vehicle batteries, all sorts of things. >> columnist at "insider," lynette lopez, always good to have you on the show. thank you very much for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. that does it for us this morning. chris jansing picks up the coverage right now. good morning. i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york. it is tuesday, march 29th. this morning russia and ukraine are holding their first face-to-face talks in two weeks. and for the first time, it may be ukraine with the upper hand. in fact, less than an hour ago, russia's deputy defense minister

said the military will fundamentally scale back operations around the capital as a way to, quote, increase trust in the peace talks. but the truth is the russian military is already being forced out of several areas due to heavy resistance from ukraine. and it's come at an incredibly steep cost. check out these scenes from a town in northeastern ukraine where a senior u.s. official says russian forces have been driven out after weeks of occupation. burned-out tanks and half-destroyed buildings are scattered all over town. overnight, ukrainian forces also retook the city of irpin northwest of kyiv that's been the scene of some of the worst fighting in the area. the mayor says it's been, quote, liberated, although president zelenskyy says russian troops are still in the area. bottom line -- what the russian military hasn't been able to control it's tried to destroy. and yet after more than a month of fighting, the biggest cities including kyiv and