i let you go, you know florida politics better than i do. what in the world is going on down there? >> i mean, if i had the answer to that question, i would give it to you. but i think that's the big thing, right? it's everything that congresswoman debbie mucarsel-powell laid out there. it's trumpism that has that new will be on the line. >> yeah, i don't understand it. but i certainly appreciate that conversation you were having. great to see you, my friend, and i'll see you tomorrow evening. get some rest. >> and good evening to you at home everyone. welcome to ayman. coming up, putin's blind spot. u.s. intelligence shows putin's advisers aren't actually telling him the truth about russia's losses inside ukraine. kurt volker, the former u.s. representative for ukraine negotiations is gonna join me on this program. plus, russia, if you're listening, trump wants foreign governments to interfere in a third presidential election, believe it or not. then, what questions remain

around what donald trump was doing, and who he was speaking to from the day of the insurrection at the capitol. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> tonight, some new developments in the war in ukraine. just hours ago, a key ukrainian negotiator claimed that peace talks between ukraine and russia were in an advanced enough stage, that direct talks between president zelenskyy and vladimir putin may be on the horizon. this, as new satellite images show russian forces pulling back from the capital of kyiv. in a potential major turning point, a senior defense official now confirming to nbc news that helicopters from ukraine's military managed to strike an oil facility in the russian city of belgorod. now, this shift in strategy from both countries, comes on

the heels of troubling new information from u.s. officials. according to declassified intelligence provided to nbc news, vladimir putin's senior advisers are too afraid to tell him the truth about russia's battlefield failures, leading to persistent tension between the russian defense ministry and vladimir putin. u.s. intelligence say that the president isn't even fully aware of the extent to which russia's economy has been damaged by the sanctions imposed by the west. here is secretary of state antony blinken. >> one of the achilles heels of autocracy is that you don't have people in those systems who speak truth to power. or have the ability to speak truth and power. and i think that is something that we are seeing in russia. >> what secretary lincoln is describing has a name, the dictator drop. that's when the strategies that leaders, like vladimir putin, use to stay in power, actually trigger their eventual downfall. now, for weeks, we have asked

whether it's possible to negotiate with a dictator like vladimir putin. but perhaps, we should be asking whether it's possible to negotiate with someone who is not grounded in reality at all. let's go now to nbc's ali arouzi in lviv, ukraine for us. ali, it's good to see you my friend. what can you tell us about the state of these peace talks, and the momentum that they are gaining, if it actually is true or not? >> hey, ayman. one of the lead ukrainian negotiators, david arakhamia, says that the russians have indicated that there is enough in a draft peace treaty agreement to warrant a direct meeting between zelenskyy and putin. he says that the russians have agreed to many of the points that the ukrainians have made, except for crimea. he said that a time and a date hasn't been set yet, but it's likely gonna be in turkey. and the turks have been holding a lot of the talks that have been going on in the past. so these are very positive

signs there's gonna be a potential meeting between the two men that actually make the decisions. all other talks have been at a working level, and one time at a foreign ministerial level. but these are still very early days, ayman. we have to see what happens. the russians have made a lot of promises in the past, and they haven't backed it up with action. and if the two sides do actually meet, it's gonna be a very, very tough negotiation, and no guarantees that they will come out of it with a positive result. the situation here on the ground in ukraine remains dire. this place is getting bombed every day. and the ukrainians have said that if there is any agreement between zelenskyy and putin, that has to be put to a referendum. you can't have a referendum in this country during war, during curfew. so it is very complicated. but it is a very positive step forward. look, the last time these guys met directly, last tuesday, the ukrainian foreign minister warned his delegation not to eat anything, not to drink

anything, and to avoid touching surfaces, in case the russians poisoned them. so moving along way from there, but still not certain if the meeting is gonna happen. they haven't signed anything. this is a verbal agreement. let's see what comes of it, when and if it does happen. >> yeah, building on the trust of surviving this, it really says something when you're looking at the gap between these two sides. nbc's ali arouzi in lviv for us. ali, it's good to see you, my friend. please stay safe. >> let's turn now to the u.s. response and all this. earlier, i spoke with one man who actually knows the players in this conflict all too well. ambassador kurt volker, he is the former u.s. ambassador to nato. he is the former u.s. special representative for ukraine negotiations. >> ambassador volker, thank you so much for joining us this evening. i want to start with that new intelligence from u.s. and uk officials on vladimir putin. let me play for you what the

white house communications director, kate benningfield had to say. listen. >> we have information that putin felt misled by the russian military, which has resulted in persistent tension between putin and his military leadership. we believe that putin is being miss and foreign by his advisers, about how badly the russian military is performing, and how the russian economy is being crippled by sanctions, because his senior advisers are too afraid to tell him the truth. >> can you shed some light on what this strategy here is? why are they releasing this kind of intelligence, publicly? they were very effective in the lead up to the war, with russia's plans. is this also in that same light? >> well, i think first off, it is important to just get information out, because very little information is getting to the russian people, is even getting to vladimir putin, as she says. so putting these things out in a very public way for the united states gives them a better chance of penetrating, so that people actually hear it. so that's the first step. the second is to try to create

some kind of, i don't know, wedge, differentiation, between the military and putin, between the people and the military, the people and putin. because, exactly what she said is correct, they did not give him accurate information about the quality of the russian military, how prepared they were. they also did not have good intelligence. and you can imagine the situation that they are in, whether if they have bad news, and putin is the dictator that he is, and don't want to go in and tell him everything. so, you know, it is a selfish waiting situation that has led to this. and i think all the moment can lead to reassess what they're doing, going forward, because of disinformation is out there, they know that the military forces are not gonna perform well moving forward either. >> yeah, as i suggested, the u.s. has been very effective in the way it has shared intelligence about russia.

clearly, they have the capability. they were months ahead of everyone else about the plans for russia to invade ukraine. how do you assess how the biden administration, overall, has communicated around this war? and more importantly, its policy, overall, what do you make of this administration's handling of this crisis so far, from start to where we are today? >> well, there are different aspects that. and the aspect that we're talking about right now, which is the information space. taking intelligence information, downgrading it, making it public, communicating about russia's intentions, i think that part has gone exceptionally well. they have really done a tremendous job of not allowing putin to really get anywhere in his own information warfare. this has led to a situation where university of russia is used as an aggressor, and ukraine is rightfully viewed as defending itself against

external aggression. so that's problem one. part two is that, how do we do to russia. how do we prevent russia from attacking in the beginning, or how to prevent them from escalating? and here, i think we have been a little timid. i think that we have been so concerned to say what we want to. we won't send you forces. we won't send u.s. aircraft. we won't send mig-29's. even on things where we eventually changed our minds, such as on swift sanctions, or nord stream 2, or stinger missiles. we communicated. and i think that kind of approach is for our eyes and for ukraine, and makes them more cautious for our allies. and since putin a greenlight. i think that is not gone yet. and then finally, with the most recent things we heard from president during his trip to warsaw, i think it was really spot on, to say that ukraine is going to certify and succeed as an independent state, russia

will never win. we understand the values that are at stake here. our coral is not with the russian people, but it's with the aggressive actions that putin and his regime is doing. those are the right messages again. >> you have been a vocal advocate for a limited humanitarian no-fly zone over ukraine. some have said no such thing could exist, because once you post a no-fly zone, you are essentially entering a potential military confrontation with russia. explain to us what you mean by that? is there such a thing as a limited no-fly zone? would that require coordination with russia, at a time that they've shown little regard for civilian casualties? what would that look like? >> first off, i want to stay up front, obviously, the risks of doing that are greater than the risks of the things that we are already doing. this does increase risk to us, and increases risk that we could come into direct contact with russian forces. so let's be clear that is a danger.

however, let's talk about how that could be structured. first off, you limited y'all griffey, you don't go close to russia's borders. you are talking about kyiv and the west. second, you limited to humanitarian purposes with protecting humanitarian supplies, with protecting civilian populations, and not targeting ground forces. we're not targeting question forces. we declared a very benign intent. so that means also, we're not gonna check russian aircraft or helicopters. unless we are fired upon or unless they ignore this no-fly zone, and enter it, and then we will try to escort them, and fire back, if we get fired upon. so essentially, daring the russians to draw us into the conflict. where i'm quite confident that they do not want us in this conflict. they are using the ukrainians already, the last thing they want is more forces in. >> yes. it is an interesting proposition. one that i have

not seen get a lot of traction in the u. s.. on a slightly different note, this week former president trump publicly called on putin to release dirt he might have on hunter biden. of course, you testified at trump's first impeachment hearing after he pressured the ukrainian government to dig up dirt on hunter biden, and then candidate joe biden. none of us forgot that moment. what is your reaction to trump pulling this move again? >> you know, it is amazing to me how we get distracted by our own domestic politics. there is a real world out there, there is a war going on, russia is killing people by the thousands, they have created 10 million refugees, and it is a vital interest to the united states that ukraine survives as a country. we do not want putin's aggression to be rewarded, and to drag this back as a domestic political issue, i think it is just completely wrong. we should be focused as a country, and on as much as a bipartisan

basis as possible, that's doing what is in our national security interest. >> all right. ambassador, thank you so much for your time tonight. greatly appreciated. >> thank you so much. >> coming up, my conversation with the former nato supreme allied commander in europe. next, trump asks the man who is slaughtering innocent ukrainians to interfere in the next u. s. election. next u. s. election. before nexium 24hr, anna could only imagine a comfortable night's sleep without frequent heartburn waking her up. now, that dream... . ...is her reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts, for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? you know liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need? oh, like how i customized this scarf? wow, first time? check out this backpack i made for marco. oh yeah? well, check out this tux. oh, nice. that'll go perfect with these.

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>> so bottom are putin's killing ukrainians, the west is united and its opposition to putin's reprehensible actions there. except for one former american president who this week, spread debunked conspiracies as he asked putin yet again for dirt on joe biden and his son. >> why did the mayor of moscow's wife give the bidens,

both of them, three and a half million dollars? that is a lot of money. she gave them three and a half million dollars. so now i would think, putin would know the answer to that. i think you should release it. i think we should know that answer. >> all right, so if you need a refresher, this is the third election cycle in which trump has now called for foreign election interference. >> russia, if you are listening, i hope you are able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. if somebody called from a country, norway, we have information on your opponent, oh, i think i would want to hear that. >> you want that kind of interference in our election? >> it is not an interference. they have information. i think i would take it. china started an investigation into the bidens, because what happened to china it's just about as bad as what happened with ukraine. so i would say that president

zelenskyy, if it were me, i would recommend that they start an investigation into the bidens. >> and it was that request to president zelenskyy that led to trump's first impeachment. as the president biden leader ousted from power, labeling him a war criminal, trump on the other hand is content to solicit support from that very same adversary. the contrast could not be sharper. joining me now is illinois congressman russia congressman, thank you for coming back on the program. what was your reaction this week when you heard donald trump's latest request to vladimir putin? >> it was outrageous. donald trump cannot help himself. he praises putin, he asks him for papers just as he does with other authoritarian dictator. i am glad that some republicans rebuked him. but most were

silent, unfortunately. and i think that the fact that trump, despite putin's barbaric attack on ukraine, would ask him for favors, we tried to enlist the cooperation of a battlefield enemy, says all that we need to know about donald trump, and would a future president trump might do. where he is somehow elected again. >> and the funny thing is and all of this is that you bring up the republicans after trump's acquittal in the first impeachment trial. you had some who said, let me play for you with republican senators susan collins said about trump claiming his lessons. watch. >> i believe that the president has learned from this case. the president has been impeached. that is a pretty big lesson. >> i feel the president probably learned a different wasn't on the one susan collins is referring to here. what

lessons do you think donald trump learned from that acquittal? >> i think he learned that he can do whatever he wants and get away with it. that is what he learned. and i think that he is going to keep pushing the envelope, so to speak, on the type of behavior that the leader of the republican party in this case can get away with. and i think it is up to us to continue to push back. but also i hope that more republicans do so as well. i have to say, donald trump doing this, again it raises questions of why he is such a fawning admirer of vladimir putin. why he continues to ask him for favors, and favor with putin the same question for the last five years. >> the reason, at least in my opinion, the reason this is so

critically important is that putin, he could easily release completely fake documents that implicate biden, or his son. as we saw in 2016, somebody like trump who really has no moral standards, and certainly those in the conservative media, they would gleefully promote the fake material to benefit his campaign if they thought it would. all you have to do is the first impeachment trial. let me play for you how congressman adam schiff described the way trump used hillary clinton's hacked emails than. >> and when the russians started dumping them before the election, he made use of them, in every conceivable way. charting the filthy campaign stumps more than 100 times. >> how much of a national security concern should this be to all of us? >> well, the russians have every incentive to meddle in the upcoming election, and the election after that for the presidency. because they know that joe biden is bad for

business in the kremlin. they want to get rid of joe biden, they want to get rid of democrats who have the majority in the house and senate. the other part of this that is very disturbing is, you know, vladimir putin doesn't do things out of the generosity of his heart. he wants things in return. so he would absolutely want donald trump to return the favor in other ways. again, there is so many sanctions. so many issues that have locked, or frozen the russian economy that he wants to get out from under. i think you would absolutely welcome another president trump, or somebody who would help to get him out of the situation he is in right now as an international pariah. >> let me if i can, congressman, switch gears to another topic that is of important. one that

still deserves a lot of attention. you are one of the co-chairs of the covid-19 global vaccine caucus. there is a supplemental package of new covid funding that is currently stuck in congress, and global vaccine funding is now in jeopardy amid republican opposition to it. wood began as a 19 billion dollar package has been drastically cut, and that vaccine aid may not make it into the bill. just out of curiosity, will you support a supplemental package with a global vaccine aid given what we are seeing now, and the concerns of another omicron variant possibly taking hold? >> as i said a couple of days ago, i think many of my colleagues and i could not support a bill without global vaccine aid. global vaccine aid is the only way that we can possibly end this pandemic. without global vaccine aid, we are going to look at variant, after variant come over to the united states, disrupt our economy, and risk our health. i know firsthand, because three of my relatives died from the

delta variant in india before delta came to the u. s.. then omicron after that. it is not only the right thing to do to help vaccinate the 2. 5 billion people who remain unvaccinated today, but it is also the smart thing to do if we are ever going to end this pandemic once and for all. >> congressman, always a pleasure. thank you for joining us and sharing your insights. >> thank you. >> all right, still ahead, what don't we know about trump's phone calls from the day of the capital insurrection? plus, how putin's invasion inadvertently made the nato alliance stronger than ever. than ever. trelegy for copd. ♪ birds flyin' high ♪ ♪ you know how i feel ♪ (coughing) ♪ breeze driftin' on by ♪ ♪ you know how i feel ♪

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to the january 6th committee, they showed that no calls were made from 11:17 am until 6:54 pm. now, we know that trump actually made calls during that stretch of time. in fact, republicans in congress have said so. they said that they spoke to him as the insurrection unfolded on the record and publicly. and as far as we can tell, the call logs are actually complete. there is no indication that the have been tempered with. so, for almost eight hours as rioters tore through the capital, we have no idea who trump was communicating with, or how he was communicating with them. now, according to the washington post, the january six committee is investigating whether trump's communicated through trump communicated, excuse me, through backdoor tunnels. the phones of aids, or burner phones for example. and whether or not this was part of an effort to hide who he was actually talking to. joining me now or former federal prosecutors glenn kershner and

paul butler, both are msnbc legal analysts. it is great to have both of you with us. gentlemen, i will start with you. regarding this eight hour gap in the white house phone calls from january six, cnn has reported that the record is actually complete, they really want us to believe that donald trump wasn't making calls while the capitol was under attack, even the republicans have said that they were speaking to him? what is actually going on here. >> not to be sherlock homes, to deduce that this feels like a cover-up. now, the jury is out. it remains to be seen whether it is a cover-up or weather as you say, it is impossibly donald trump who opted not to contact anybody on the phone, even though we have reporting that he was talking to guys like mike lee, and here is the thing. if this turns out to be evidence of a cover-up, i think my friend paul will agree with me, prosecutors view evidence of a cover-up as gold. because, now, it makes it that much easier to prove the wrongdoing

in the first instance if you see that people are trying to cover up their own behavior. not only does it help you prove the crimes, it also helps provide evidence of corrupt intent. if people are desperate to cover up their conduct. so, if this turns out to be a cover-up, the cover-up may hurt more than the actual call logs themselves. >> so let me pose that question to you, paul butler. how do you determine whether or not this is a cover-up, as glenn kershner was saying, if you are somebody working this case how do you connect the dots to get to the conclusion, hey, they were doing this with the intent of covering up something that they wanted covered up? >> well, we can use our common sense, and hopefully at some point jurors will be asked to use their common sense to look at what is a willful attempt to evade the presidential records act. the law requires all

records of telephone calls to and from the oval office to be preserved. from the most serious domestic threat, the color goes silent, and this is the same time the inserectionists are assaulting cops, hunting down the vice president, and speaker pelosi. there is some concern that trump was using a burner phone to try to hide what he was doing. he claimed this week that he never heard of a burner phone. but former national security adviser john bolton said that he and trump had an extended conversation about burner phones. so to glenn's point, for trump to deny that now is what lawyers call consciousness of guilt. >> i have a follow-up for you, we learned this week that the doj's expanding their january 6th investigation into the financing and organizing behind trump's stop the steal rally

which preceded the insurrection that day. congressman adam schiff responded by calling the pivot, or the expansion long overdue. but still, very significant. why is it significant? why has it taken this long to what i would say would almost be a basic part of the investigation to find out who was involved in the precursor to the insurrection? >> so, the attorney general has suggested that this is a pyramid investigation starting with the lower level offenders who trespassed, and desecrated the capitol. and now, they see that they are advancing on the foot soldiers to those higher up in the chain. the organizers, the financers. so the subpoena is seeking information about people who were classified as vip attendees at the insurrection. this is really important. it is also seeking information about people in the white house, and congress

people who were involved in planning and execution. prosecutors have charged almost 800 people so far. but no one in trump's inner circle. merrick garland claims he will follow the leads wherever they take him, this week a federal judge said that the evidence suggests president trump committed at least two criminal offenses. the january six panel, they cannot prosecute trump, they could only refer the case to the justice department. but this week, the pressure on doj to prosecute the former president increased a great deal. >> yeah. that pressure on the doj is going to increase as we approach the midterms and people worry about the fate of the january six investigation depending on what happens as a result of that. even before that. glen, paul, please stay with me. i will squeeze in a quick break. when we come back, we will talk about clarence thomas. he is obviously being grilled by members of congress over his failure to recuse himself from the january 6th

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( ♪♪ ) >> it has been more than a week since we first learned about ginni thomas's texts to trump's former chief of staff urging him to overturn the 2020 election. we have not heard a peep from her husband who i should remind you's supreme court justice clarence thomas. no statements. no apologies. nothing. a group of house and senate democrats have lost their patience with him, demanding answers from thomas, and the chief justice john roberts about why thomas has yet to recuse himself, and calling on him to step aside from ruling in the future january 6th related cases in front of the court. i am back with our legal panel. paul, let me start with you. justice thomas does not seem to be feeling any pressure from this scandal. do you think these new letters

from democrats will change that? if not, what needs to be done to at least find out, or at least hold him accountable, and find out what if anything he knew about what his wife was doing? >> so, i don't think this letter will make a bit of difference to justice thomas. i don't think that he is likely to recuse himself based on his record of already deciding other cases in which his wife has expressed advocacy points of view. if he were not on the supreme court, if he were a federal judge on the lower court, he would be required to recuse himself in these cases, or he would be subject to impeachment. he is still subject to impeachment. i think that is a long way off. i think the thing that is likely to happen immediately is the chief justice will have a little sit down with him. because at this point, thomas did not only ruin his own

legacy as questionable as that was to begin with, but he also was bringing the court even more discredit at a time when people don't have confidence in the executive, they don't have confidence in congress, and now thanks to justice thomas, they have even less confidence in the supreme court. >> glenn, i want to play for you some sound from house speaker pelosi this week if she was asked of justice thomas should recuse himself. >> why should they have lower standards than members of congress in terms of reporting, and the rest? so, you know, i have heard people say from time to time, well it is a personal decision of a judge as to whether he should recuse himself. well, if your wife has admitted and proud contributor to a coup of our country, maybe you should weigh that in your ethical standards. >> all right.

so she sounds a little bit more wishy-washy here on being uncertain about this issue that i would have personally guessed. why do you think she is not more fired up about it as other members have? because you know, if the shoe is on the other foot, you know this would be all the republicans are talking about 24/7. >> you know, i don't think anybody necessarily wants to rush to impeachment, but i think we do need to rush to transparency. because we have zero transparency about why in the world the supreme court justice would feel comfortable sitting in judgment in a case that involves whether his wife's text messages, which let's face it, are inappropriate at best, and incriminating at worst. why he would feel comfortable sitting in judgment over whether those text messages and other information should be released, to the january 6th

committee, and released by extension to the american people, or hidden from public view. you know, i can envision high government officials in other republics laughing at us, and saying can you believe that a supreme court justices happy to preside over a case involving his own wife's interests? this shows that the supreme court cannot be trusted to police itself. congress needs to dig in. this is a separation of powers problem. there might not be much that congress can do to install oversight. but i agree with all chief justice, roberts better try to do something about it. right now, the credibility and the legitimacy of the supreme court is slipping away. >> i couldn't agree with you more on how much i would think people overseas are watching this and thinking what in the world is going on when you have this kind of massive breach and public trust, and separation of powers. paul, glenn, thank you both for joining us tonight. greatly appreciate your insights.

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forces reposition themselves, at least for now, away from kyiv. earlier i spoke with retired four star air force general philip breedlove, he is a distinguished chair at the middle east institute. he also served as an ally come under europe when russia invaded crimea in 2014. general, thank you so much for joining us this evening. first, i wanted to get your reaction to the bombing of this russian oil depot. if moscow's accusation is true, it would be the first attack from ukraine on russian soil since the invasion began. that would seem like such a significant development. we should note here that ukrainian officials have not claimed responsibility for the attack. but i would like to get your reading on it. how significant of a development would it be for ukraine to be able to successfully carry of this type of operation inside russian territory? >> first of all, thank you for having me on.

it is significant in that if, and i will not -- i don't have confirmation either, but if ukraine did do this, it is significant that they have made the strike. i think the real story is that people are wound up about it. russia is firing from the black sea into ukraine, they are firing from russia into ukraine, and they are firing from belarus into ukraine. so i think that i do not understand the flurry about the fact that ukraine may have fired into russia. >> well it is not so much about the theory that ukraine did it as much as they have the capability to do it. perhaps from a military perspective, should ukraine be trying to do more of it if they have the capability? so far, we don't know if it did or did not do it, but if it has the capability from a military expertise, from your opinion, should ukraine try to take the

fight to russia? >> i believe in this instance it is absolutely called for. we are gathering from the ground that russia is about to bring a new armored unit through that area from the advisers throughout this conflict? >> well, i think that the first thing it indicates is that mr. putin and his leaders have

determined they cannot accomplish their objectives around kyiv. i have heard someone call this the battle of kyiv. i am not sure that is quite right yet, but clearly, mr. putin has not been able to accomplish his objectives there. now he is looking to repurpose that force. and he has got to reconstitute it. ukrainians tore those forces up in the north pretty badly as you have seen in all of the pictures. i don't like the word withdraw that people are using, i think it is just reposition as you described in the latter part of your question. i think what he is doing now is, not being able to accomplish his objectives around kyiv, he is repurposing the force. he has got to reconstituted before he re-purposes it and what happens with it next i think is very concerning. >> let's talk if we can for a second about our ability to replenish ukrainian supplies. because since russia invaded

ukraine, nato and u.s. as i mentioned have supplied the ukrainian resistance with weapons. but we are going into months number two of this conflict there is growing concern that this stockpile of our own capability of our allies is quickly depleting. lawmakers have now expressed concern that the biden administration has not put forward a plan on how it will replenish those weapons. you are in a position to know what capabilities we do and don't have. do you share that concern? how long are we prepared to provide this kind of supply to the ukrainians over a period of, what could be months? >> well, it is a concern. we are using up wartime stocks. these are weapons that we have set aside in case we needed them. and so, i think it is absolutely appropriate that we move them to ukraine. and then we need to have a plan.

as the president's budget this year laid out such that we can replenish the stocks that we are using, i think it is a fair question that now has to be asked. >> when the current nato supreme allied commander in europe was asked about the possibility of a more permanent presence of u.s. troops in europe, he said the situation has quote, got to change. could putin's plan backfire here and lead to a stronger nato presence in eastern europe? you served in the highest position in nato. i want to get your thoughts just on lessons learned. but going forward, has this war changed nato's calculation yet again? >> short answer is yes. john wolters has it right. i said almost exactly the same thing in 2014 when mr. putin invaded ukraine the first two times, occupying crimea, and occupying the donbas.

i said this has changed. and in fact then, at the wales conference, nato made some changes in readiness, and in position. but nato and the united states have responded well in this current engagement by pushing forces forward into the area. this is exactly what mr. putin did not want. if you remember the two documents he told us to sign, or else. we now know what or else meant. we did not sign the documents. but those documents wanted us to move out of the nato -- and what it has caused is exactly the opposite. we are taking more force into the near abroad. and again, john walters, the current -- has got it right. we have to look at a more permanent presence forward, to ensure that this bad behavior is not rewarded. >> we have about 45 seconds left. i know hindsight is 2020, but what if any lessons learned

from your time as a supreme commander of nato would you share with the world right now? what would you go back and say to your self at the time, or mistakes that you perhaps made, not individually but collectively as an organization towards the reflection threat. >> russia has invaded georgia in 08, and invaded ukraine twice. now it has invaded ukraine again. so i think we need to look back at the actions we took in these instances, and we will see that we did not determine stir putin. rather, in this conflict, we are deterred, and mr. putin is not deterred. that is exactly backward how you want to plan and start a war. even in this engagement, we have needed the initiative to mr. putin. have -- we are reacting to him. we started to him over and over, if you do this we will do that.

that is seeding the initiative to the enemy. these are things that i think we have to look at in the future. i think we need to fight not to be deterred, and rather deter the enemy. and we need to fight to gain and maintain the initiative. >> general, thank you so much for your time. i greatly appreciated your insights. >> thank you. good to see you. >> coming up, a historic moment. more than 100 years in the making. we will tell you about that. to help prevent bleeding gums, try saying hello gumwash with parodontax active gum health. it kills 99% of plaque bacteria and forms an antibacterial shield. try parodontax active gum health mouthwash. wayfair's got just what you need to be outdoorsy. your way! shop the biggest selection of outdoor furniture and furnish your habitat from you habitat. get a new grill and cook over an open flame. now that's outdoorsy! go wild on garden decor.

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