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united nations security council accusing russia of a litany of potential war crimes including rape, abductions, and the indiscriminate killing of civilians, all of which he says amount to the worst war crime since world war ii. he told the global community that it needed to act now to defend international law in the face of tyranny. watch. >> where is the security that the security council needs to guarantee? it's not there although there is a security council so where is the peace? where are those guarantees that the united nation needs to guarantee? it is obvious that the key institution of the world which must ensure peace simply cannot work effectively. now the world can see that the russian, what russian military did in bucha while keeping the city under their occupation, but

the world has yet to see what they have done in other occupied cities and regions of our country. geography might be different of areas, but cruelty is the same. crimes are the same. and accountability must be inevitable. >> russia has denied any role in the atrocities in bucha and elsewhere even as the evidence against them is mounting with satellite images appear to show civilians lying in the streets of bucha before the russian forces began the withdrawal and left the town. adding to the urgency, the u.s. ambassador to the united nations, linda thomas greenfield, detailed more atrocities, this time in the port city of mariupol. >> some of them according to credible reports including by the mariupol city council has been taken to so-called

filtration camps where russian forces are making tens of thousands of sieve yans relocate to russia. i do not need to spell out what these so-called filtration camps are reminiscent of. it's chilling and we cannot look away. >> in light of horrific reports coming out of ukraine, there's a new push to punish putin and russia. the e.e. is proposing a ban on imports of coal from russia and pledging to curb imports of russian oil. e.u. countries are also expelling more than 100 russian diplomats in just the last few days while the u.s. moves to further restrict russia's access to the dollar. that was yesterday. resources tell nbc news that the biden administration will unveil a new traunch of sanctions against the russian government and businesses tomorrow. all this as we're still learning the true extent of exactly what

happened in bucha. around 3700 people remain in the town without any power, without water, and without access to medical supplies. that's according to bucha's mayor. richard engel had a first land look at the devastation. >> this is one of many houses destroyed. troops didn't just bomb this house. this was the house where irina lived with her husband and her father. after russian troops shelled the house, the family came rushing out and they found the russian soldiers here. the russians grabbed oleg, started to talk to him and they brought him down this street and they put him on his knees. irina was just coming out of the door and was able to see the russians executing her husband while he was on his knees and there's still some of the blood here on the pavement. the body was taken away. this family's story is typical of other family's experiences

here in bucha. they said russian soldiers were going house to house, carrying out executions. bodies have been found with their hands tied behind their back. because of the violence, because russian troops were patrolling, she wasn't even able to collect his body. it stayed for weeks. now, it has been brought away by ukrainian authorities. they are still looking for more. as russian troops pull back from areas like bucha, more and more evidence of their atrocities is emerging. >> it's where we begin today with some favorite reporters and friends. former deputy national security adviser to president obama is here. also "new york times" pentagon correspondent. rick stengel. all of them msnbc contributors. ben rhodes, it is the portrait of a heinous, the most heinous echo in human history.

you heard greenfield make that reference as well as president zelenskyy and it's really over to the western world. what do we do now? >> yeah. it's absolutely heinous and look, you know, when you look at the combination of the horrible war crimes that we're discovering, the stated purpose of demilitarization and some articles in russian state media that talk about the need to eliminate ukraine, we might not just be talking at war crimes. this is rising to the level of genocide, trying to eliminate the ukrainians as a people. through violence, deportations and political measures. that's the severity of this. it's not morally tenable to continue to buy significant amounts of russian gas as europe does every day. i hope coal and oil are just the beginning. they're going to have to take some pain in europe to really cut off russia from its lifeline of revenue, which is that sale on export of gas.

i think the kinds of restrictions perhaps self-imposed restrictions that have been applied on the provision of weapons to ukraine. those things should be rethought and should probably go away. it's time to give ukraine everything it needs to fight. i understand the reticence of military conflict in russia, but i think the urgency of the provision of weapons in ukraine goes up. the other thing i'd put out there that's a longer term issue, the u.n. is totally broken. as president zelenskyy highlighted. this war was launched while russia chaired the council. they had to call an emergency meeting when russia invaded them. russia can veto anything they would choose to do about these war crimes. the international order has been broken by putin and it's time for the united states to think about what can be done to diminish russia's power to obstruct any mode of accountability going forward. >> by the time the u.n. gets

around to reforming themselves all they're going to be able to do is build monuments to dead ukrainian children. what do we do now? >> that's why i said that's a longer term piece of business. it will take a long tile. i think you're talking about moving from sanctions to totally cut russia off from any revenue and significant revenue, to finance their war machine. i think you're beginning to look at the provision of things like tanks and planes and the kinds of heavier weapons that there's been a reticence to provide to ukraine. those are the ways to maximize the existing strategy of sanctions and arming ukrainians to fight back and i think we have to extend the boundaries of that policy in the short-term even as we're going to have to reckon with the longer term issues around how russia's been able to -- the response to hold them accountable. >> i think some ukrainians that we have access to believe this is a moment when all humans will

have to answer to their children and grandchildren what did you do. as ukrainian civilians were slaughtered in bucha and heard the stories, what did you do. when the mayors of mariupol came up and said hundreds were slaughtered here, too, what did you do? how does that question weigh on people at the pentagon? i have to ask you this, too. when we talk about more sanctions and weapons, i always want to ask what have we held back? on the military side, what have we held back? >> hi, nicolle. i think the pentagon still is looking at this through the prism of their first job is to protect american life. and to keep america out of a war with russia. for more than a month now, even before russia invaded ukraine, pentagon officials were warning that this was going to get very, very bad.

general mark millie went to the hill with the defense secretary in february in the weeks before the invasion and said once russian troops get in, prepare for humanitarian catastrophe. this is going to get ugly and it's getting and it will get ugly, stay ugly for a very long time. even then, they were saying though at the same time that the united states has to take pains to make sure this the u.s. does not end up in war with a nuclear armed russia. so now here we are at this points where we're seeing these horrific atrocities live on tv in a way that these sorts of atrocities have never been broadcast before because we now live in the time of cell phone video age where everything is out there for public consumption and the question becomes then

what are we going to do. at the pentagon, the answer is the same as it was a month ago. we should be arming the ukrainians. helping them as much as we possibly can. but there are some lines that pentagon officials still say they don't want to see the united states cross and particularly given that it ends up as a, this ends up in the lap of president biden, who has made clear he doesn't want to see the u.s. go into war with russia so i think you will be seeing more weaponry going over. this tank thing now last friday, the united states started working with a couple of allies. one of them being poland to transfer s-72 -- t-72 tanks, soviet era tanks, to the ukrainians to use in the battle that's coming in the east and

donbas region. the polls don't want to talk about this. the allies themselves were transferring these tanks don't want to publicize this because this is, in case they russian views this as belligerent. russia will certainly argue that it's an offensive weapon. but you are seeing, you're seeing a lot more now going. we've lost the whole argument about defense and in some ways about defensive versus offensive weapons when we're giving stuff to ukraine and when we're sending things over there. but still at the moment, it's still in the same realm of anti-tank, anti-aircraft, helping them with their air defense systems and that sort of thing. you haven't seen like you know, another, the next big step of talking about establishing

humanitarian corridors, which is something that the united states could do that's short of a no fly zone, but you're not seeing the administration arrive at that point yet. >> i want to play that sound. this is secretary austin warning about things getting worse. >> the russians thought they could very quickly move into ukraine, capture the capital city and install their leader of choice and they weren't able to do that. as they enter this phase, it will probably be a lot more deliberate. they'll be able to match fires a lot more so the violence will probably go up a notch there. >> as you said, general milley

sending the message that things are about to get worse. what is the amount or the por portion of what we've held back? colonel vinman was talking about the systems we give to the ukrainians. i think they've heard the message loud and clear we will not be patrolling the skies over ukraine, but how much room is there between that wish list and what we haven't given but are considering giving? >> it's such a good question and it's one that the biden administration gets very defensive about because they would like for us to believe and they want the world to believe that we're giving weapons. weapons are coming with speed and we're giving, one of the officials said to me last friday when he was talking to me about this tank story was that we have now given, he said, zelenskyy

everything he's asked for except, and i said except for the migs. laughed, yeah, except for the migs. there is plenty more that we could do when it comes to probably speed, but the delineation for them, for the pentagon is what they. >> clay: classify as offensive versus defensive. i think you're going to see that, those lines go away now. i think as we'll soon see now that nobody's going to start, nobody's going to continue this ridiculous charade of pretending that we can't give ukraine anything that could end up striking russia. that's sort of the, that's the, i don't want to use the word red line, but that is what the united states has been worried about so far. that's what they were worried about with the migs. we want to make sure that any of the weaponry that we give

ukraine cannot be used inside russia. cannot be used to threaten moscow. can't be used in a way that putin can then say, you know, his existence is at stake. because then at that point, you don't know what he's going to do and how he's going to respond. but it's such a tricky balance to walk when you see the kind of slaughter that we're seeing in bucha and in other, you know, mykolaiv, mariupol. in these areas that have fought so valiantly, but at the same time, you've seen citizens, ukrainian people, who it just really looks as if russia has made a decision now that not being able to defeat the ukrainian military on the battlefield is then going to do everything it can to break the will of the ukrainian people themselves to fight. that's sort of where we seem to be shifting now and that's a very, very scary place to be. >> the genocide is the point.

they're not aiming for a military battle. they tried and failed and the genocide is the military strategy. and as president zelenskyy said today, you know, over to you, western world. >> you know, the brutality of russian troops, i hate to pile on the russians, but the libraries have shelves full of books of russian massacres during world war ii after world war ii. the great british military historian said the largest, greatest number of mass rapes was by russian troops after, during and after world war ii. so this is in their game plan as it were because they, you know, the russian military has never been known for its subtlety and when subtlety doesn't work, they go to brutality. even genocide.

i'd make the point, i'm not a military strategist, but to helene point and what ben was saying about giving them offensive weapons. the war has changed. it's not an invasion of an entire nation. it's moving east and south and i would argue it would be a war of attrition in those areas and we could send more offensive weapons because they're not in danger of going into nato territory in the west and poland and romania. it does seem like a different war now and i do feel like the west has been a little bit behind the curve. both with sanctions and with supplying weapons and now we should try to get ahead of the curve. >> let me ask you about weapons. what have we held back? why haven't we done the maximum when we see the slaughter and the targeting and the clear strategy of killing and maiming civilians? >> so the strength of american sanctions are financial

sanctions. the thing that's propping up russia and what zelenskyy called blood money is the oil and gas revenue going to europe. that is the thing that could decapitate the russian effort, which is if they all say, like lithuania did. we're going to wean ourselves oil and gas, not just coal. they would have no money for the war. coal is relatively small compared to gas and oil. and doesn't affect the europeans as much even though it affects the russians. we keep waiting for the russians to do more grizzly things before we go to the next step. >> security council turning into a mockery. when we come back, the russian propaganda machine working overtime this week. they're really, really busy with this genocide thing, denying what appears to be overwhelming evidence of just that. the brutal killings in ukraine.

we'll look at how the global community can deal with it and begin collecting evidence for prosecuting war crimes. plus, ivanka trump in front of the january 6 committee today. she may be one of the closest advisers to the ex-president in terms of understanding what he did and did not do that day. elaine lauria will be our guest. then president biden getting some help from his friend, president obama was at the white house with news about expanding their healthcare law. when deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> i heard some changes have been made. by the current president. since i was last here. apparently secret service agents have to wear aviator glasses now. the navy mess has been replaced

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for $1500 off your kohler walk-in bath. visit kohlerwalkinbath.com for more info. perfectly well what the representatives of russia will say in response to the accusations of these crimes. they will blame everyone just to justify their own actions. they will say that there are various versions, different versions. it's impossible to establish which version is true.

they will even say that the bodies were of those killed were allegedly thrown away and all is staged, but it is 2022 now. we have conclusive evidence. there are satellite images. we can conduct full and transparent investigation that this is what we're interested in. >> zelenskyy is well aware there's a second world war, one of information and disinformation, where truth and propaganda are at a constant clashing battle. even today just as president zelenskyy predicted, the russian federation's mission to the u.n. suggested just that. that the bodies in bucha were staged. another russian official called the executions, quote, fake, concocted by agencies and ukrainian forces prepared to kill their own citizens. of course, the actual evidence is overwhelming.

the kremlin can claim all it wants those mutilated corpse of civilians appeared on the street of bucha after russian forces left the area, but as we've mentioned, satellite imagery combined with some incredible, really, really quick "new york times" analysis that was out 24 hours ago, prohibitively refutes any such claim. of course, such overwhelming evidence does not matter to the kremlin or its propaganda machine and sadly to much of putin's base. outside and inside russia's borders, but it does matter to those investigating war crimes and making decisions about how best support ukraine. ben, i'm going to start with you on this really leader of a country at war, civilian population is being targeted and putin's trying to eliminate them in a genocide playing out on social media. zelenskyy's aggressively

fighting russian propaganda. basically with one arm tied behind his back, pushing out and pushing back against these lies. is it working? >> i think it's certainly working in the west. and this is an important point to underscore, nicolle. because we look at this and think who could possibly believe that anyone would fall for this russian propaganda. first of all, the russian people are living in a massive flood of propaganda and have been for years, so obviously i think that some of this russian disinformation work there, but also like the court of public opinion is global and those countries that have sat on the fence who need some excuse to not go along and enforce sanctions, they have populations and potentially even leaders who could be susceptible to russian disinformation. and so i think it's very important to remember here just because we all don't believe this garbage coming out of the

kremlin doesn't mean it's not gaining traction somewhere in the world. and zelenskyy has, that's one of the reasons why he's literally been speaking to every audience he can around the world to push back on this. i think it is incumbent on us to not hedge in how we refer to these things. to not hedge in terms of what we're seeing with our own eyes, to move with speed when there's any verified information so that we're helping zelenskyy in pushing back on this. because the russians don't care about the accountability of their counter narrative. they care about the volume of it. they just flood the zone. it's going to be competing conspiracy theories, where actually the ukrainians assassinated these people and they don't care on whether they have a plausible narrative. they're just trying to fill space. that's why it's incumbent on everybody to help president zelenskyy and not hedge and wait too long to say what we're seeing with our own eyes, which is that there are war crimes

happening. there's genocide campaigns happening inside ukraine and russia is gaslighting its own people about it. >> helena, this is where the complete saturation of propaganda inside russia confounds me as a factor for determining which military m ises to give putin. we give him the teeniest or most lethal, he's going to say the same thing. why are we so hostage to russian information ecosystems? >> i don't think it's a worry about what he will say. i think our worry, the administration worry is about what he will do and what will become a tripping point for him to launch a wider war, but on the propaganda thing, i am, as a reporter, i'm stunned by where we are on this. i just, i just called up an e-mail i got last week, friday

right after a story i did with eric schmidt and juliet about russian military, yet another story about russian military isn't doing well, they're running the campaign out of moscow. and this came into me on friday. hello, helene, i'm a russian journalist, i'm a journalist from russia. i carefully read your publications on the issue of russia's special operation in ukraine. not a single word of truth in anything you write. ukraine is bombing its own cities, civilians, there are a lot of facts and evidence of inhumane actions as armed forces of ukraine professing fascism and nazism toward civilians. it was surreal to get this e-mail. so completely removed from anything that we know to be true and i think ben makes a really good point when he starts talking about the west and

hedging. i think as journalists, we have a tendency to want to always reflect both sides and we're always doing this on the one hand this, but critics say that. but blah, blah. i think this is a moment that calls for moral clarity when we write and moral clarity when we report to make sure we're not falling into traps that we set up for ourselves so that we feel that you know, we have to hedge what we say. i think it's a challenge right now for journalists who are used to trying to present things as more nuanced. there's not a lot of nuance right now in what we're seeing in ukraine and i think it's, so i think it's up to us to make sure that when we see this massive russian propaganda machine in action that we're calling it for what it is. >> let me just take a second to lift up the work of "new york times" war photojournalist,

lindsey adaria. he's now reporting from istanbul. it's not propaganda, it's a real law by taking that out of the paper, but putting it on the front page weeks ago. the pictures don't lie. i think maybe both sides is you know, the truth from america and the truth from russia to the twitter feed. he tweets this, putin's propaganda has long ceased to be a tool. they are actual warmongers. they are revving up their fury. they demand a war to the bitter end. storming kyiv, bombing lviv. even the prospect of a nuclear war does not scare them. they wipe up the floor with their fellow putin on live television if they hint at the fact peace talks are a good

thing. it is still opaque to us in part because folks like the times and a lot of other western journalists have left moscow, but it is still okay to us how much the russian people support putin's atrocities in ukraine. >> it's a bit of a mystery because here you are reading a tweet from a political prisoner in russia. no political prisoner in china is able to get on twitter and tweet. the russian media space has been relatively open until recently. you could watch msnbc from red square. you could read "the new york times." >> obviously read helene's reports. >> 90% of russians get 90% of their information from state media. yes, there's been a rise in people using telegram and other means to get around that, but they are, they're patriotic.

>> they're seekers. they have to seek it out. >> it's confirmation bias. if putin told him, hey, i won the gold medal in the decathlon, 60% of russians would believe him. to ben's point, we're in a little of an echo chamber ourselves. india and china are getting a different picture. if you go on twitter and any social media and look at stuff about ukraine in mandarin, it all supports putin's line. the two biggest populations in the world are not getting the same information we're getting. >> it's a grim news day, but thank you for bringing extraordinary coverage. speaking with the january 6 committee, ivanka trump, who was with her dad at the time at the white house as that mob of her

dad's supporters stormed the capitol. what we know about her testimony is next. capitol. what we know about her testimony is next.

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this afternoon, nbc news confirmed the january 6th committee is one big step closer to ex-president donald trump. testimony from his daughter and closest aide, ivanka trump, less than a week after her husband testified before the 1/6 committee for more than six

hours. the select committee asked for miss trump's testimony voluntarily back in january citing several accounts they had already heard from witnesses who had come in about her role that day. quote, knowledge bearing directly about the president's actions on january 6th and his state of mind at the attack as well as her presence inside the white house and oval office on january 6th. garrett spoke to benny thompson about her cooperation. >> i mean, she's answering questions. you know, not broad, chatty terms. >> or any other privilege? >> not that i'm aware of. >> would you describe her as cooperating? >> well, she came in on her own. that has significant value. we did not have to subpoena her.

>> let's bring in neil, former acting u.s. solicitor general. now a georgetown law professor. also, betsy swan, politico correspondent. rick is still here with me. neil, let me start with you. i went back and looked. liz cheney has already put the committee in the room with ivanka trump. the committee has heard testimony about her role of going in several times to engage her father. tell me the value and sort of the scope of questions to her today. >> there's potential value. ivanka trump was originally scheduled to go into committee two months ago and it's good to see she's finally following through today. i guess she's living up to that old family trump motto, better late than under subpoena. look, she's no doubt resolved

some lingering mysteries from that day. and she's likely going to decline you know despite what that language is we just heard from the chairman. i suspect she's going to decline to answer those questions and that's what subpoenas are for. honestly, watching her under oath and jared under oath is going to be like an episode of succession where the whole family turns into cousin greg. i think it's going to be interesting. i think the investigators today are focusing on two things. one, donald trump's state of mind and actions. general kellogg, who was vice president pence's national security adviser, said that ivanka was in the room and talked to trump at least twice and indeed was in the room for when there was a call being made where trump was pressuring

pence. i think that's what the committee is trying to get at now. >> betsy, when the committee wrote about potential criminality about three or four weeks ago now, the focus is on the fraud perpetrated in the country and it's rooted in evidence that proves donald trump knew they hadn't won. that the coup plot, the pressure campaign, the white paper drawn by eastman, the campaign applied by donald trump himself and some of his closest advisers was down with the knowledge that he hadn't won. it seems that ivanka could answer a simple yes or no question. did your father know he lost on election night. >> and no doubt that's something that is going to be at the top of the list of questions the select committee is going to pose to ivanka. another question of course is her knowledge of the conversation on the phone that trump had with mike pence. i believe it was keith kellogg who told the committee that at

the end of the conversation, which ivanka trump lestoned in on, she turned to kellogg and said mike pence is a good man. that very much would have put her at odds with her father, who said mike pence doesn't show enough fealty to him. one of the biggest questions to her, why did it take president trump so long? what was his disposition as he was watching these horrors unfold on cable news? was there anything else that he was watching? what type of content was he taking in? was there anyone in the white house who told him not to try to push back against what the attackers were doing as that violence unfolded? arguably no one has more information about what happened with the president himself than ivanka. short of interviewing former president trump himself, ivanka is absolutely their best witness and the big question for today is exactly how forthcoming is she being with investigators.

>> we have a chance to put that question to someone who may or may not share with us. let's bring in elaine. just a logistical question. is ivanka still talking to the committee right now? >> well, as the chairman said earlier, she has been participating in a lengthy interview and has appeared before the committee. as we laid out in a letter in january, of the many questions we had for her. >> i won't ask you to tell us how she's responded. i know chairman thompson probably came as close by saying she's answering questions and hasn't invoked any privileges. has that changed? >> i think what the chairman said earlier is still accurate to the best of my knowledge. >> okay, so i want to focus on what she might be able to fill in. congresswoman cheney and

thompson have made clear, you're in the oval. you have understanding of some of the granularity. the reason ivanka says he's a good man is because the president calls him a profanity that i won't say here, but he's used it before. what is sort of the investigative theory about importance of understanding why she had to say pence is a good man when he was on the phone with his vice president? >> like many of the witnesses we've spoken to, there were people in the white house on january 6th and they may have seen some or all of the events that happened that day. so it's really important for the community to be able to piece those things together to take information and some of the reporting that's happened sort of third party or second hand, you know, we need to be able to go back to the people this is about and understand from them,

are those statements true and accurate? it's really valuable when we have the opportunity to ask questions of people who are in the room on that day. >> the letter sent to her included the testimony obtained -- requested your assistance on multiple occasions to intervene and persuade president trump to address the violence on capitol hill. reports say that lindsey graham called you during this period, pleading that the president asked people to leave. in part due to your investigation and other investigative journalism, we know a whole bunch of people called. we know that mccarthy called and trump said my people love america and care more than you do, kevin. we know some of his closest allies took to television networks to call for the

president. how much is the president's inaction and the fact that, the things he did not do? how much is that of interest in interviewing ivanka trump? >> well, i'm not going to tie it to specific witnesses because it's of interest overall for anyone who has direct information about what happened that day. but i've said it, it's 187 minutes. that's over three hours that from the information that has been reported publicly, you know, the president did not act. like my question is why didn't he just go to the briefing room and get on tv. so those are the kinds of questions we need to know the answers to. i sort of framed this before, he's the commander in chief. i'm somebody who spent 20 years in the military myself. it's like a commander, captain of a ship, who's watching the ship burn and literally sits there for three hours, takes no action, directs no one to respond to the burning fire. that's dereliction of duty.

the kind of thing an officer could be court marshalled for. just the inaction. that's central to questions that we have broadly. >> and i know the witness list and again, i won't put you in a position of trying to field a question about what they said, but a lot of the senior advisers of pence have testified. is the committee trying to ascertain who was functioning at the country's commander in chief and who ultimately asked the national guard to go in and bolster efforts to retake and secure the u.s. capitol? >> we are certainly looking in depth at all of the details that pertain to the ak tifrts in the national guard that day. their readiness. really because the purpose of the committee is to provide recommendations to prevent this in the future. we're look at the command structure and how the d.c. national guard is activated and ways they can be more responsive

in potential situations like this in the future if there were to be a threat of violence. so certainly every aspect of the national guard activities that day are part of our investigation. >> thank you for spending time with us on what is i'm sure a busy day. we're grateful. >> thank you. quick break for us. be right back with our panel. r s be right back with our panel if you have type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure you're a target for chronic kidney disease. you can already have it and not know it. if you have chronic kidney disease your kidney health could depend on what you do today.

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been the extent to which, when the chips were down, my colleagues did not meet the test. when the chips were down, and when you were called to do what you know is right, instead, you played politics, and you continue to do it in here today. >> and the next day and the next day. rick stengel, that is the backdrop against which the democrats and the two republicans on the 1/6 committee have to go about doing their work. >> yes, it's -- there's a -- the whole wall against them of people who know what the right thing is to do and refuse to do it. >> and then what the facts are and i guess, neal, my question for you is, with ivanka there, with jared kushner providing voluntary testimony, what is your degree of confidence that, you know, and again, this is not a criminal probe. this is -- their effort is to uncover facts. they have employed and deployed former u.s. attorneys and assistant u.s. attorneys. they're on a fact-finding mission.

how are you feeling about their ability to knit together a complete story? >> i'm feeling okay about it, nicole, not great, and not because of the committee, which i think has done really outstanding work in investigating all these people and the like, but they have faced a lot of resistance and bogus claims of privilege. the committee's already had to devote contempt for steve bannon and mark meadows and jeff clark, the first two of which have been sent to the justice department for potential criminal prosecution, and now you've got people like navarro and others who are claiming the same thing, executive privilege, even though that argument's been rejected time and again. it's such a tired argument. it was rejected by all of trump's inner circle six months ago. i mean, what's next for these guys, sourdough starter, listening to taylor swift's "folklore"? i don't know. but we're well past that and that's what the committee is facing, unprecedented obstruction. >> there's a process for dealing with and holding accountable he

or she who would obstruct. i mean, we're back at where we always end up, neal. where is merrick garland and the justice department on those contempt referrals? >> exactly. on steve bannon, he has indicted bannon and bannon's going to face justice, but mark meadows was recommended for contempt by the full house of representatives in a vote 100 days ago, and garland still hasn't had, you know, indicted him. now, maybe they're trying to work something out and have an accommodation that's one way of looking at it. the other way of looking at it is that garland's still investigating and the like, and if it's the latter, you know, my gut is probably 100 days is probably enough to figure out whether congress is right or wrong on this. if it's the former, absolutely more power to them. >> and betsy, i guess reporting over the weekend confirmed that president joe biden stands with liz cheney and federal judge clark and others who are impatient and exasperated with the pace of doj. any sense that that is having any repercussions inside main

doj? >> it's hard to know the degree to which, you know, particularly the complaints that the "times" reported. president biden himself has made are impacting at the justice department but there was a really, really big development on the doj january 6th front last week, and that is we now know that a grand jury investigation based in washington, d.c., has issued subpoenas not just related to all the people who punched police officers and broke windows on january 6th but that they've also issued subpoenas related to the alternate elector scheme and related to the people who organized the ellipse rally that president trump spoke at. the fact that we know those last two topics are now facing grand jury scrutiny means there's a dramatic expansion of the subject matter that the justice department is investigating. there's actually a lot more

overlap between what doj is doing and whatthe january 6th select committee is doing than we've known, even just two weeks ago. sometimes, when you don't see much going on at doj, it's because there's not much going on. other times, it's because it's sort of like you see a duck peacefully floating on water, but the feet are going crazy underneath. doj never -- almost never, perhaps except in bannon's case, moves as quickly as people on capitol hill and in the white house would like the department to, but that doesn't mean that they're not moving. that doesn't mean things aren't changing. >> all right. it's a start. neal katyal, betsy woodruff swan, rick stengel, thank you so much for spending time with us today. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. white ushoe" starts after a quick break. cash) ♪ i've traveld every road in this here land! ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪

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r what we've seen in bucha is not the random act of a rogue unit. it's a deliberate campaign to kill, to torture, to rape, to commit atrocities.

the reports are more than credible. the evidence is there for the world to see. this reinforces our determination and the determination of countries around the world to make sure that one way or another, one day or another, there is accountability. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. the u.s. and our allies now navigating a post-attack on bucha world, a world where we saw a city leveled, heard heinous accounts of senseless attacks on ukrainian citizens, some of them detailed by the u.s. secretary of state, and now as a world, we have witnessed those horrifying images of bodies, human bodies, laying dead in the streets or buried, tossed into mass graves. strong words there from secretary of state tony blinken this morning, saying it was a deliberate campaign by the russians, not a rogue unit, expressing the need to hold them to account. u.s. ambassador to the u.n., linda thomas-greenfield, voiced that need as well, proclaiming that russia should be removed

from the you know yum rights council for the atrocities they've committed. >> given the growing mountain of evidence, russia should not have a position of authority in a body whose purpose, whose very purpose is to promote respect for human rights. not only is this the height of hypocrisy. it is dangerous. russia is using its membership on the human rights council as a platform for propaganda to suggest russia has a legitimate concern for human rights. >> ambassador thomas-greenfield made those remarks following a speech for the ages from ukrainian president zelenskyy. he spoke directly to the u.n. security council for the very first time. zelenskyy challenged nothing less than the entire world order and questioned the council's purpose if it cannot punish the perpetrators of the bucha attacks. he went through, in detail, what the human beings, the civilians in bucha experienced.

he presented a very graphic video. it's so graphic that we made an editorial decision not to show it in its entirety here. the video depicted the truth, the reality of what happened in bucha, dead people lying in the streets and another horrific circumstances. russia still denies responsibility for all of the horrors in bucha, saying the preposterous claim that ukrainians staged the images, even as satellite imagery irrefutably rebuts their lies. sources tell nbc news that tomorrow the u.s. will announce in coordination with the g7 and eu an additional package of sanctions, ones they say will impose significant cost on russia and send it further down the road toward economic financial and technological isolation. there was a grim warning about the war from the chairman of the joint chiefs, mark milley, as he testified before congress today. >> i do think this is a very protracted conflict, and i think it's at least measured in years, i don't know about decade, but at least years for sure.

this is a very extended conflict that russia has initiated, and i think that nato, the united states, ukraine and all the allies and partners that are supporting ukraine are going to be involved in this for quite some time. >> it's where we begin the hour with michael mcfaul. also joining us, katty kay, bbc news u.s. special correspondent. with me here onset, john heilemann, the host and executive producer of showtime's "the circus," all msnbc contributors. i need to start with you, ambassador mcfaul, and on the genocide and the slaughter of civilians as a military strategy. it's engrained in russian military history. was the world ready for this? were we prepared for this? was ukraine prepared for this? can you be prepared for this? >> of course, you can't be prepared for it. it's horrible, horrific,

heinous, brutal, genocidal, i can't think of more adjectives to add to it. by the way, nicole, i was just corresponding with one of my colleagues who works for president zelenskyy and he said, mike, he was just in bucha with president zelenskyy, and he says, it's way worse in physical -- when you walk there in-person than it is on the videos that we're seeing. but it's also done on purpose. i think that's important for everybody to understand. think about it. if president putin didn't want us to see this, they could have put some effort into cleaning up the bodies. they didn't. of course they're denying it. they're saying it's british intelligence and all this b.s., but they want everybody to see it because it's part of the strategy to put pressure on zelenskyy to negotiate. and when zelenskyy can't protect his people, and i have -- it is a giant pressure for a head of state to not be able to protect their people and right now they're feeling that especially in mariupol, that does put pressure on them to negotiate so this is part of a conscious strategy, not an accidental set

of deaths and set of, again, i can't think of the right words to describe this brutality. >> well, the atrocities are really difficult to process as humans. it's hard to imagine the humans that carried them out. two significant things, i think, that i don't want to gloss over. secretary of state tony blinken made clear that he has enough information to assess that this was not the act of some rogue russian unit, but it was exactly as you said, part of the russian government and russian military strategy, and my question is about something that i'm hearing from sources in ukraine, and if i'm hearing them, i'm sure you're hearing them in abundance, that the only reason we see bucha is because the russians have left. and once we see all of the areas still being tortured, still being pummelled, where the genocide is ongoing by the russians, we won't have any words at all. what can you deduce with your

knowledge of ukraine and ukrainians and of the russian military? what is happening in those places where we don't have eyes on the ground? >> nicole, you're exactly right. as one of my ukrainian colleagues, another one, said, mike, mariupol is our stalingrad, and i think it will be orders of magnitude worse than bucha because they've been bombing for longer. they've been starving people. and mariupol's a much bigger city, right? and we're not seeing it yet, you're exactly right. we'll see if we do see it, if it's ever liberated again, but that's exactly right. and so i hope, you know, to talk about prescriptions, i think it's great we're kicking the russians out of the u.n. humanitarian -- the human rights council. they should have been kicked out years ago, by the way. i think it's great that we're going to announce new sanctions tomorrow. i don't know exactly what there are, but i'm pretty sure they're not going to be what the ukrainians want. ukrainians want us to stop subsidizing putin's killing machine by buying his oil and

gas in democratic countries. they're very explicit about that. and i think, if you look at these photos that you're showing right now, how in god's name can we, part of the free world, continue to do that? and i hope -- because this -- the real access, you know, the action on this has to come from our european allies, but now is the moment to do that if we don't do that, we will continue to fund this war. it's just as direct as that. >> ali velshi said on this program something that president zelenskyy said today. if we see the horrors of bucha, and i'll find out what the reason is for not showing the video and if there's some of it we can share tomorrow, but if we can see the dehumanization as a military strategy playing out all across ukraine, and you just confirmed what i had heard, that it's playing out in numbers unimaginable in the parts of the country that the russians control. what does the post-world war ii

world order exist for? what is the united nations there for? what a farce. what a ruse that russia has a seat on the u.n. security council. can you answer zelenskyy's question or ali's observation? what is it all for if what the world does in the face of the slaughter of civilians is watch? >> i can't answer the question. it's the right question. i think you're right, it's a historic speech. that is a legacy from 1945, the u.n. security council. i'm not optimistic that there's going to be change to it, so i want to be clear about that. but there are things we can do. we can cut off oil and gas. there are other things we can do. we can arm them so that they can fight to stop putin's killing machine. there will be no peace treaty, i guarantee you, there will be no peace treaty until there is a stalemate on the battlefield. there is not a stalemate on the battlefield now. and then third, i think we have

to start listening to president zelenskyy's creative idea. he's decided ukraine -- u.n. security council is not going to stop this war. he's decided nato is not going to let ukraine in. so, he has made this proposal. trading ukrainian neutrality for a security guarantee from the members of the u.n. security council and poland and turkey and israel and maybe one or two other countries. but the only way that works is if the united states of america signs up to be one of those countries that makes that security guarantee, and i think we need to begin that conversation now. >> katty, let me show you some more of what president zelenskyy said to the united nations security council earlier today. >> translator: if this continues, the countries will be -- rely only on the power of their own arms to ensure their security. and not on international law,

not rely on international institutions. the united nations can be simply close. are you ready to close the u.n.? do you think that the time of international law is gone? if your answer is no, then you need to act immediately. >> anyone who knows even a little about the u.n. doesn't have a ton of faith in it as a nimble body or a particularly effective reactive one, but i listened to that speech a couple times, and i wonder if as ambassador mcfaul is saying, it's something you talked about on this show, if the audience is closer to home to ukraine's european allies, and i wonder how this speech landed there today, katty. >> yeah. i think some of this is for european allies. when i've spoken to ukrainian military officials who obviously are angry that zelenskyy isn't getting what he wants in terms of weaponry, but they're also

wary about any security guarantees that the west may give them, because as they say, look in 1994, we gave up our nuclear weapons, and we got a security guarantee from the united states and from the united kingdom and from russia, and look what's happened to us. so, any security guarantee that they get, any body that is set up to protect ukraine's security that is not the united nations or that is not nato, will have to come with some kind of cast iron commitment that the ukrainians themselves can trust, because there's a lot of mistrust at the moment. they feel -- and i think we've started to hear it in zelenskyy's addresses -- you know, gone in a sense, is the thank you for helping us, you know, we're all in this together, and increasingly, with every speech, you get from him, publicly, you hear what i have been hearing privately for a while, which is much more anger and much more of a sense of betrayal by the west, that they haven't been given either the weapons or the security guarantee that they need.

>> and what is, you know -- i had helene cooper on in the last hour, and when you hear more weapons and more sanctions, as a u.s. policy, or western policy, i always want to understand what is still -- what have we left on the table? how much have we held back in terms of sanctions and weapons? and you were in the region. i mean, what is the sense of, you know, are we 40% there, waiting for the genocide to really kick in before we get to 100%? what is the delta between what we've given and what is left to give, short of involving u.s. military in a ground war in ukraine? >> well, i would say there's a better person to ask on this panel than me, and that would be ambassador mcfaul about the economic thing and i have heard him, we've done a lot on economic sanctions. the key one goes to energy and that goes to europe. there's more that could be done there and the thing to really cut off the russian economy would be to have a full-on oil embargo that involves all of the european union in addition to what we've done in the united states. that's the big one there.

there's others. i was talking about mike. there are more oligarchs that we could sanction, more people that we could hurt but the biggest one is the energy thing. the problem on the weapons is a lot of what's going on is stuff that we're purposely not talking about, right? it's hard for anybody who's not inside the military and inside nato to really know exactly how many. we know two things. we know, one, that zelenskyy feels like he's not getting as much as he needs and we also know there's more weapons being transferred across the border that are publicly known for good military reason so it's hard to gauge that, and i think to the one thing that ambassador mcfaul did say is that i don't know how much is left on the table but i know that zelenskyy thinks that he's not getting what is necessary. and so, that is a -- that is a tell that there is -- that there are things that he would like to have and that he's not getting. he's saying that outright and in the open. i think the questions that we're -- that are being raised by this, this is -- you just talked about, we're at the point of genocide. what else is on the table? and it goes -- this does -- i want to ask this question of

ambassador mcfaul in a second, because the first day of this, before the war actually had started but that monday of that week, when putin gave his first crazy speech and sort of indicated that we're about to have an invasion, i was on -- you were away, i was sitting in this chair, and i was talking to a very good panel, one of whom was mike mcfaul and i said, you know, if this -- at some point, this is going to get really bad and if it gets really bad, i don't know what really bad is, is that chemical? i mean, certainly nuclear would be really bad. but if question get to the point where it's chemical or nuclear or now we're in a place where something that zelenskyy's calling genocide and that the president of the united states says, putin needs to be tried for war crimes, not just he's a war criminal, but he needs to be tried for war crimes. will sanctions seem enough? that was the question. will we get to the -- even if we impose all the sanctions, will there get to be a point where the world looks up and goes, we can't just watch this happen day after day, because bucha may not be the last of these things. we may not know how much more military aid we could give exactly to ukraine but we know that vladimir putin still has a lot of arrows in his quiver,

which include chemical and nuclear and more things than we've seen. so i ask that question, and ambassador mcfaul, you said, i think there's going to come a point where wh no matter how stringent the sanctions are, it won't feel like it's enough, and we kind of in the abstract contemplated what would happen then. we're now kind of to that point, so i know you just put a proposal on the table, the zelenskyy proposal, but is there going to come a breaking point, do you think, where it's going to seem like a more direct intervention is necessary if this kind of thing continues? maybe it's already here. >> it's hard question. i don't have a great silver bullet answer to it. but i do think -- i would say a couple of things. first on the economic side, i just want to really focus like a laser on oil and gas. it can be done. i've read expert papers from professors all over the world, including in europe, that said it can be done. there are a variety of ways to do it, by the way. one is you put a tariff on oil

and gas, so -- and then that makes it more expensive for russian gas. two, you phase it in. three, you do what we did when i was in the government with the obama administration, you set up escrow accounts so that russia continues to sell its oil and gas, but it's held in an account until they end the war. and you, i think, well, why would putin do that? maybe he doesn't have a choice to do that, right? remember how gas works. it flows through certain places. it's not so easy to move around. when i hear people say we've done everything we can do, i completely disagree with that. we could sanction the tankers that carry around this energy. we could sanction the russian company that insures those tankers. we could sanction and kick off all the banks from s.w.i.f.t., not just -- and i could go on. there's 6,000 more oligarchs that can be sanctioned. no, we have not done all we can on that side. by any stretch of the imagination. and i just want to say this very clearly.

when we purchase, we, the west, we, the democratic world, we, the free world, when we send our money to russia, we are financing the killing in bucha. it's just that simple, folks. it's not abstract. and people say, well, the gas prices are high. well, that, i think, is an important thing to look at, but you know, politicians read polls. leaders shape polls. and i think this is the crucial moment right now. and then second on the weapons, i would just -- i think john made a very good point. yes, when i talk to ukrainian officials, i was just on a call two hours ago with them, they say we need more, mike, and we need a lot more, and we're not advertising as much as we need because we don't want the enemy to know where we're at, and so we should give more, and two, when i hear jake sullivan speak, i think they're rightly trying to be quieter about transferring those weapons, and the two key weapons right now are surface-to-air missile systems

and anti-aircraft systems and anti-naval systems, those missiles so they can defend that coastline and particularly the city of odesa. >> katty, i want to bring you back in on this sort of -- it's not really a deep, but conversation about what europe should do, really, about oil and gas, and just take me inside that conversation inside europe. >> so, yeah, one very quick thing on the weapons. there's just a comparison that a general made to me today. we've just given $300 million in security supplies to ukraine in the last month, what we've just agreed to. at the height of the iraq war, it was $9 billion worth of security equipment going to iraq every month. so, that's how much more we were spending in iraq. that suggests to you how much more we could be spending. the argument in europe is that, i think, the ambassador touched on something that's important for politicians to ever come along with this, as clearly a debate within the german coalition about, which bits of

the russian energy supplies to try to do something about, whether it's oil, gas is the most difficult, coal, which would be the easiest. i'm watching the french election. in the last week, marine le pen who just a ago was saying ukraine is in the russian sphere of influence, who still has photographs of herself with president putin in her campaign literature, is known to be close to the russian president, has inched much closer to emmanuel macron in the upcoming presidential election, and she has done so because she has focused on the cost of living and specifically on high energy prices. if we want to make sure that you don't get pro-russian politicians taking office in europe, you need to also protect european populations. you need to protect them from -- they're paying three, four times this much this winter as they were last winter to heat their homes. when the winter comes again, it's going to drag on, it's what we started this hour with, the

war is going to drag on, we're going to get into another winter, you're going to have to make sure that somehow you don't have european populations turn against the ukrainian effort because there are fears already that the west starts to splinter. you're seeing it around the world. we know china and india, brazil, african countries, they'll carry on buying russian gas. i mean, they will unless, you know, there's a big split in the world over this too. western, european, north american countries, very much in favor of ukraine. a lot of other countries in the world aren't in that position, and a lot of them are suffering from high energy prices, so just to impose sanctions on oil and gas without figuring out the repercussions on publics in order to keep those publics on board, i think that is a complication that politicians have to deal with. >> no, it is, i don't know, jenga is the only thing i can think of, but you pull a piece out, and obviously, having leaders who support democracies and support ukraine is

essential. thank you so much for that. katty, sort of grounding us back in reality. ambassador mcfaul, katty kay and john heilemann, all stick around for more. when we come back, harrowing stories from refugees who fled bucha and what they're hearing now from family, friends, and neighbors who stayed behind. plus, it seems like old times. president biden and former president barack obama together again at the white house in hopes that the former president can help the current one improve his political fortunes. and two more republican senators say they are on board, they will support judge ketanji brown jackson's confirmation to the united states supreme court, and it's what one of them said about the politics behind the process that's getting some attention today. we'll play it for you later in the hour. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. eadline whis after a quick break. okay, snacks and popcorn are gonna be expensive. let's just accept that. going to the movies can be a lot for young homeowners turning into their parents. bathrooms -- even if you don't have to go, you should try. we all know where the bathroom is and how to us it, okay?

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the horrors of bucha should have had the effect of opening the entire world's eyes even more so to the human toll of the unprovoked war by russia against ukraine. husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, children, friends, coworkers, the list goes on and on of human beings whose lives are now forever changed by the horrific, indiscriminate violence. ukraine's ambassador to the u.s. spoke with our colleague, andrea mitchell, earlier about her connection to this city. >> one of the streets you are showing on your tv today is the street i used on a daily basis to take my kids to school in

bucha. it's unbelievable, and i think the world has to respond, because if we do not respond to this, bucha will happen everywhere, not only in ukraine but elsewhere. russia has to be stopped. >> joining our coverage, nbc news correspondent dasha burns for us, and i'm going to screw this up -- in poland. clean that up for me, dasha. nice to see you. >> reporter: you got it right, nicole. >> miracle. tell us what you're seeing there. >> reporter: yeah, i actually met two women here at a refugee center who are from bucha. they are both mothers of two, they're sisters, ina and alina, and nicole, when they told me about their experiences, they couldn't help but shake. now that they're safe here in poland, they're also hearing from their friends, from family,

from neighbors about what has transpired in their hometown, and some of the stories they're hearing, they have a hard time even saying aloud. one of those stories, ina told me about, that her neighbor's son was gunned down along with a large group of people who were hiding in a church. these are not soldiers. these are civilians. she said there are mothers, there are children, people of all ages. she broke down when she told me this story. these things are so hard to hear, nicole, but they are so important to hear. that is what these women, the refugees i've been speaking with, are asking the world to do is to listen. her sister, alina, recently lost a colleague. she says she desperately wants to go home to bucha, but she's terrified of what she's going to find there when she does go back, and here's just some of my conversation with her. >> translator: right now, it's pretty scary there.

it's -- i'm not ready to go back there, and other people are not because soldiers are going around the towns and picking up the corpses. it's pretty difficult to recognize who they were because -- because there are many women, many people who are naked, whose hands are tied behind their backs. the blood is mixed with the soil in bucha. it is very hard. but i'm sure that ukraine will be even better after this. it will bloom, although right now i'm devastated because it's -- nothing is left. >> reporter: blood is mixed with the soil in bucha. that just struck me right in the heart, nicole, when i heard her say those words, and one thing she made a point of was to call out to the world to listen to

good sources, to hear real, true information, because she is worried. she hears what's coming out of russia, even some of her family members are hearing this on state television, that, you know, the claims that this is all staged, that this is fake, but they are seeing this with their eyes. they are hearing this from loved ones who are back home in their hometown, and she's in shock, still, because bucha is a suburb of kyiv, it's a beautiful, suburban town, and they could never, ever have imagined that these atrocities would happen there, nicole. >> dasha burns, your reporting is so important and powerful. thank you so much for bringing it to us. we're really grateful. we're back with ambassador mcfaul, katty kay, and john heilemann, and i heard this yesterday, ambassador mcfaul, from igor novikov, who we have on regularly, and i've heard it from others.

there is this deep anxiety that the west will look away, that we'll become distracted by our domestic politics, by a slap at an awards show, by something else, and the -- the frailty of our attention is very much on the minds of the ukrainian population. how do we address that? >> well, it's a concern. i understand the concern i don't think that will be the case with president biden. i think president biden has been deeply moved by these images. i think he is deeply committed to what is going on in ukraine. remember, he does have a long history of engaging with this country. i traveled there with him back in 2009 when he was vice president. so, i'm not worried about him. i am worried about the public. by the way, i want to praise msnbc for how much attention you're giving to the war. i think it's really important for the american people to keep engaged, and to the debate about sanctions and oil and gas and

things like that, you know, i sometimes have the impression that the people are ahead of the politicians. when you look at these massive demonstrations you've seen throughout europe, it makes me wonder who's worried about oil and gas as much, the politicians or the people. i was just in sioux falls, south dakota, last weekend. i gave a talk there thursday, i give talks all the time. 3,000 people came. 3,000 people came. and when i mentioned the word president zelenskyy, they stood up and gave him a standing ovation, and when i said, more weapons and more sanctions, they applauded with thunder. this is sioux falls, south dakota. so i think it's important. you're helping those people see those images, and i just think we shouldn't underestimate people's willingness to be engaged and to suffer in the cause of helping to help ukraine free themselves and become independent and democratically once again.

>> ambassador mcfaul, i understand you have places to go, and we're going to let you go. thank you very much for spending time with us. we're grateful. katty, i want to stay on this point. i mean, i take your point about the frailty of our elections because it plays out here. i mean, the most prominent and watched host on the most watched cable network is -- was openly cheering for vladimir putin. i haven't caught his program the last couple days, but he is sort of the network of the republican party in america, and i imagine, you know, your point is about that dynamic playing out and democracies all across the world. how do we guard against indifference to the power and importance of democracies in our own country? >> yeah, you're right. even the ukrainian ambassador to berlin just earlier this week very indiplomatically called out russian sympathizers within the german government.

it might not have won him any favors in the german government by i think he was speaking to young germans who are horrified by what they see, and there is a need for us to protect. and frankly, we've all been kind of lazy. look just at voter turnout numbers here in the united states and in other western countries. we don't do very much, do we, to try to protect our democracy as citizens when you compare that to what people are doing in ukraine, and maybe that has been, i hope, a wake-up call to all of us. people there are prepared to fight and prepared to die to protect something that we've been a little cavalier about recently, and maybe this is the wake-up call we need. you know, i do worry, like you do, nicole, about this slipping down running orders. we know what it's like, at some point, bosses kind of look at ratings, and are people still interested, and how do we make sure that this is still pressing and urgent, and everybody's tuned in because the atrocities in bucha, so awful, we have -- you know, we did see some of this in aleppo but not even

there did we get that close up because we couldn't get reporters into aleppo that much. what happens the next time around? what happens if there are more and more of these atrocities? do people start to turn away? do we get numb to it? like you, i worry about that as well. and there are so many things vying for people's attention, but there can't be much more that's more critical on the news agenda right now, can there? >> there isn't anything more tied to the world that we leave our kids than whether or not the world's democracies make it. or the world's autocracies led by countries capable of carrying out a genocide prevail. and to your point, it's the people that stand by and enable that genocide. katty kay, so nice to see you, thank you so much. heilemann sticks around for the rest of the hour. when we come back, president obama, switching gears to politics, it's actually a relief these days. president obama was back at the white house when his one-time

vice president could use a little help from a friend. we'll bring you that story next. . we'll bring you that story next.

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who was by my side for eight years. joe biden and i did a lot together. >> now, i'm going to sign an executive order and barack, let me remind you, it's a hot mic. >> president biden and his former boss, president obama, poking a bit of fun at one another there at the white house today as the 44th president made his return to his former home for the first time since he was president. he was there to celebrate the passage of the affordable care act and what president biden hopes to be an expansion of that law's benefits. president biden is also hoping that some of that popularity of the former president, still among the highest in the democratic party, will rub off on his own presidency as he rounds the corner into midterm season. polls continue to show a real struggle for not just the president but democrats over questions about inflation. joining us now,

yamiche alcindor, moderator of washington week on pbs, plus jonathan lemire, the host of msnbc's "way too early" and an msnbc contributor and john heilemann is here. john, we should -- we were having this conversation in the break. we should bring our friends in on it. the polls and -- and i don't spend a ton of time on them because as you said, they're pretty -- it's a direct link to how people feel about inflation, and it's not even -- you corrected me. it's not a number about the economy. it's a number about the cost of stuff. >> it's just like, i mean, if you think about where joe biden's at right now, if you pointed to -- if you took inflation out of the picture, the u.s. has created north of 400,000 jobs every month for the last 11 months. we're making jobs. wages are going up. we have 5.6% wage growth. it's like, those are usually markers. jobs are growing, gdp is soaring, wages are rising. and people still, 75% of the country thinks the economy's on

the wrong track. it's inflation. if you talk to pollsters and strategists, members of the house, democrats and republicans, they all agree on this, they won't say it this bluntly, but everybody who looks at public opinion in safe districts, swing districts, everywhere around the country, the only thing people are talking about out there in the country is rising prices. they face it every single day. it's like psychologically the most devastating thing politically, and if you think about the biden economy, where covid is right now, biden doing a pretty good job on the war. it's like -- and he's about to get this supreme court justice on the court. he's doing, like, on the objective metrics, doing pretty well, and his approval rating is lower than it's ever been and there's never been a time in this administration where democrats, uniformly, have been more in the state of, like, convinced that they are going to lose the house in the fall and that it might be really, really bad and there's no one you talk to who's trying to fight back on that. they're all trying to figure out a way out of it, but right now, they look at the pictureand

say, it's brutal for us and that's partly about biden's popularity and the party itself. the political picture couldn't be worse and it's almost all about one thing, which is inflation. >> and the -- having worked in the white house, we struggled with approval ratings ahead of the midterm election. this is -- this thing that is very difficult to do much of anything about, jonathan lemire. >> no, it is. and nicole, you know, as a policy, i tend not to agree with john heilemann, but he's right here. democrats are in a state of panic. they do -- and it's growing. even though the president has received high marks, even from some republicans on his handling of the war in ukraine, that it's not moving his numbers at all, and yes, by most metrics, the economy is doing pretty well. it is -- it's inflation, and certainly the event today with former president obama was meant to address healthcare costs. that's certainly an issue for some americans, so that's

something this white house hopes will help with at least his popularity in some degrees or at least be seen as a helping hand. but not much has moved the needle, and with costs so high, there is great concern, and there's certainly some degree of wistfulness about president obama in the white house today, that he had an approval rating north of 50%, something this president, joe biden, has not had in a long time. and there is -- and i will say a growing also concern that covid numbers starting to creep back up, particularly in big cities in the northeast. and white house aides have started talking, they had a covid-19 briefing today, and there is a belief that if that comes back, and even if it's a smaller wave than we've seen previously, that could lead to cases rising, and just this adds to the general sense of frustration and unhappiness across the country. >> you know, yamiche, elections

are always choices, and on this issue, i think it's abundantly clear which way the political winds are blowing in that they don't assist president biden. but i worked in a white house that struggled with all sorts of fundamental questions about the economy, about security, about the way the war on terror was being conducted in 2002, that defied this midterm history for one reason. the question was about security. at home. and i guess my question is about the 1/6 committee, about a potential examination of donald trump and his role in inciting a deadly insurrection at the united states capitol. i mean, do you see anything that sort of shakes up the kaleidoscope and broadens the question voters are asking in november? >> it's a great question. but based on talking to pollsters, based on what john and john heilemann and jonathan lemire said, what we really see here is that people's lived experiences is top of mind. yes, the 1/6 committee is uncovering all sorts of

interesting things, all sorts of damning things, all sorts of mysteries about what former president trump was doing and it's becoming clearer and clearer that this was not a president who was just sort of seething and angry, but he was someone who was also directing, it seems, the number of people, including in the department of justice, to do all sorts of things that were going against our constitution and trying to bring our democracy to its knees. but that being said, the average voter, i was just in alabama talking to people, the average voter is focused on their well-being, is focused on surviving, is focused on what's in front of them, which is how much are they paying? can they feel good about their lives? and that's what struck me about former president obama being back in the white house. it was one of the few times in the last few weeks or even the last few months where people really felt genuinely jovial, where people were laughing and having a good time, and it's because, of course, between ukraine and the atrocities that are happening there and the pandemic and so many other struggles that this white house is having, that democrats are

sort of -- have felt a little downtrodden, frankly, but then you see them smiling and clapping and sort of thinking about the good old days, but also when you listen to what former president obama was saying, he was also talking about sort of the deep and rocky road that it took to get there. he talked about risking re-election to go after the affordable care act. he talked about really trying to have and marshall together democrats to pass legislation, which is what joe biden is trying to do with the build back better act so there is this real feeling among democrats that they're wishing for the obama years but president obama was coming with reality checking and saying, this was great but it was hard to get to. and one last thing, when president obama was leaving the room, there was a reporter who shouted to him and said, what about the midterms? just the fact that that question had to be asked is really telling you sort of what democrats are on -- what's on their mind. but former president obama said, well, we have a story to tell

democrats and we need to tell it so that also tells you that even as the former president was jovially and happily coming back to the white house, he was saying, democrats need to get on message, they need to explain to voters why they should feel good. >> and i think what he is saying, too, is democrats need to get on offense. >> that's the thing. this event today was laying down the tracks for a pivot that's, like, we're going to try get healthcare costs down but they're also going to do something else, which is to say, republicans tried to stop this law from getting passed every chance they get, tried to repeal it, tried to stop it and to your point, nicole, i think where the conversation, what i said before, people are trying to figure out what to do about it, how to handle the situation, and is there a way to maybe save the house? most people don't think there is, but the strategy that people are kind of thinking about now and it's driven not just by the left but by anybody who's in danger is, we're going to have these 1/6 committee hearings. donald trump's going to be in the spotlight. he was the reason -- he wasn't on the ballot in 2018 when we had massive turnout that helped

democrats, that blue wave. we nationalized the elections and made it about fear of trump. let's take donald trump, take that 1/6 committee, make him still the face of the republican party. i'm not endorsing the strategy, but this is what people are talking about doing, make him the face of the republican party, talk about marjorie taylor greene, lauren boebert, madison cawthorn, say this party is crazy town, it's trumpist, trump is a threat to our democracy, make -- try to make democratic base voters scared again. it's the -- they can't motivate them on the basis of hope or their pocketbooks or any of these accomplishments. they have to scare the crap out of them and get them to come out and then maybe -- and this is a dark thought -- the other thing that people look at, as a variable, is the possible repeal of roe v. wade and that being a motivating factor for a lot of democratic voters and if those things are on the horizon and a lot of democrats are thinking about what kind of strategy could incorporate those events in a way that would maybe, at least point towards a path to

limit losses if not hold on to the house, at least make it closer. >> i mean, the republicans, as extremists, it's a story that tells itself. two members buck their extreme party to support for the u.s. s court. one of them is culling out what she describes as a "awful process" that got us here, that's next. since i left for college, my dad has gotten back into some of his old hobbies. and now he's taking trulicity, and it looks like he's gotten into some

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doesn't sound like a lot but it counts as big news these days, three senate republicans are supporting judge ketanji jackson brown's confirmation to the supreme court along with senator susan collins, senators murkowski and rim know. senator murkowski supported the judge, watch. >> i have assumed a level of risk in doing this because it is a position that my conference has not taken. we're so divided now. we are to that point where it's almost automatic. this is an awful process. it's just awful. >> we're back with you, jonathan and john, yamish, three is better than none, this will be a

bipartisan confirmation for judge ketanji jackson brown to the supreme court. it's a good thing. >> it's a good thing for the white house. it's what president biden and so many others were hoping for, judge jackson is going to be when she's confirmed of course we know making history here and they wanted that history to be bipartisan and want the country to rally around her in some way across the aisle. what lisa murkowski said about it being awful, talking about the senate process and supreme court nominations and also for so many people, including black women, who watched the confirmation hearing, they'd also describe and have described the process she had to face personally as awful but i've been texting with friends of judge jackson and they are elated and also one of her friends texted me this jay-z "dirt off your shoulders" video, he was saying her friend had to survive this terrible, terrible

process, something she had been planning for her whole life or preparing for her whole life, wanted to be a judge and now she gets to dust the dirt off of her shoulders and walk right into history. so people who know her are very proud of her and looking forward to this. >> that's great. i love that. yamich, jonathan and john, with whom i spent hours on his podcast "hell and high water." >> like a 14-hour special episode. its first part 11 hours. >> a mini series. >> correct, two hours on one side of the week, some time after the weekend. you were busy doing other things. making history, the first podcast. >> we'll be right back. protect. bravecto's the big winner. 12 weeks of powerful protection, nearly 3 times longer than any other chew. bravo, bravecto! bravo! bipolar depression.

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thank you for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we're is agrateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts now. >> welcome, everyone. we're tracking a lot of developing news including something that democrats have been downright excited about, president obama returning to the white house for the first time since leaving office to join with president biden. the two are linked in so many ways. we'll get into that with a special guest tonight. it's going to be pretty interesting and we'll get to it as big news. we start with what might be larger news for washington, ivanka trump speaking to the january 6th committee. now let me tell you about what she's doing here. this was a big one. she is basically