vote has dropped drastically for joe biden. democrats need to get -- you know, get onboard with energizing their vote not just saying every few years vote to save democracy. >> yeah, i know. absolutely. stop making promises and not mg promises and not delivering them. good to see my friend, as always great show, enjoy the rest of your evening off my friend. and good evening to you at home, welcome to ayman. coming up this hour, we have small signs of hope among the carnage of ukraine. i am going to speak with oleksiy sorokin, a key independent, to get the latest. plus, the january six committee appears to have enough evidence to send a criminal referral to donald trump to the justice department. will they? and conflicts are growing, new details on how ginni thomas and how she composed more conflicts of interest for justice clarence thomas, then we could've realized. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's get started.

so tonight, we begin with breaking developments out of ukraine, the death toll from that horrific russian missile attack on a train station has risen to 57 and 114 others injured. also, tonight new reporting suggests a major strategy shift coming out of moscow. newly-released satellite images show this large military convoy, stretching about eight miles. it is actually making its way south. that is passed a small town that lies 50 miles east of kharkiv. the images captured by a satellite firm with ties to the u.s. government, suggesting that russia is actually refocusing, if not redoubling its efforts in the donbas region. and that is not moscow's only big move today, nbc news is reporting that russian general alexander dvornikov has been

named the new ground commander in ukraine. raising -- the general commanding troops in the southern district of ukraine. he has a reputation for scorched earth tactics. in fact he led russian troops in syria. we all know what happened there. the russians brutally and indiscriminately bomb civilian neighborhoods and hospitals under his command. nearly 25,000 syrian civilians are estimated to have been killed by russian airstrikes in that conflict alone. the leadership change in ukraine could be putin's acknowledgment that he actually needs better command and control on the ground, but here's the thing, u.s. national security adviser jake sullivan said today that nothing would fundamentally change. that this general will just be another author of crime and brutality as you can ukrainian civilians. also here at home, u.s. intelligence officials believe that vladimir putin may actually use the biden ministration support from

ukraine as a pretext for more interference in american politics. let's get a quick look now at the situation on the ground in ukraine. i had the chance earlier to speak with local journalist we oleksiy sorokin. political analyst of the key independent. thank you so much for being with us again, when we spoke with you three weeks ago, you described a frantic situation in kyiv, there was the. constant rocket attacks and shelling. residents watching from apartment buildings to bomb shelters. describe for us what the situation is like there today? >> i think that it is fair to say that the capital is finally on track on returning to some sort of normality. we have café's opening, we have supply chains, better grocery stores packed with food. obviously we understand that the war is far from over, but at least in the capital, people

can peacefully sleep at night, not fearing that their house will be bombed. >> this weekend, the british prime minister boris johnson made a surprise visit to ukraine. he met face to face with president zelenskyy. they even walked around the streets of kyiv in the downtown area. did any tangible support come out of this meeting, or was it a photo op? >> obviously it was a photo op. we know that boris johnson is good on showing his support to ukraine and being very public in his support for ukraine and his take on vladimir putin. but also, we know that ukraine wants those artillery pieces and anti tank rockets. ukraine wants more support from the uk. and we hope that this visit

allowed ukraine to receive more weapons. we know that after the visit, forced johnson said that an increased amount of support will come out of the uk. and that is what our diplomats were aiming for the past weeks now. >> we have been seeing reports that some residents who fled the western part of ukraine are actually returning to their homes while in the eastern part, more residents continue to leave there. particularly after that horrific russian missile attack on the train station passed. in kramatorsk. can you see this divide? can you see people returning to their homes and keith? . >> yes, we see people returning to kyiv. if we've compared to three weeks when we spoke, there's obviously more people in the streets. but there is more people in grocery stores.

there is more cars on the streets. but we should understand that the situation and for example in kramatorsk, in kyiv, in lviv, completely different. people are trying to flee mariupol and kramatorsk and rakhiv, because that is where russia is planning a new offensive. ukraine understands that. and there is going to be a rapid increase in internally displaced persons, who are fleeing war in those regions. >> on the other side of this, there are some news that russia has reportedly appointed general alexander dove or niqab as the new commander in ukraine. and he is known for alleged scorched urged tactics that we saw in places like syria and i'm curious to get your thoughts on this. does this represent an

acknowledgment that russia's previous military strategy in ukraine was not working and how do you expect russia's military strategy to change, if in fact he is now the new ground commander of operations in ukraine? >> yes. i think that the russian leadership understands something went wrong. we heard reports by russian tv stations that kyiv is going to be captured in three days. that ukrainian army is no match for russia. and we are now over 40 days. russia had to withdraw from the kyiv region, from the trainees region, from sumy. so obviously russia understands that they failed in their blitzkrieg operation and now they are preparing for a long, long operation in the donbas. and unfortunately, people like this who have experienced in syria. i have combat experience in terrain.

this general is known for basically destroying aleppo. that is unfortunately what we are going to expect in mariupol, in kramatorsk and other large eastern ukrainian cities. >> so let me ask you if i can finally as you look forward and try to anticipate what unfolds from here on out. first of all, do you believe that because the battle for kyiv is over and the government of volodymyr zelenskyy has survived, that ukraine has effectively won this war? and more importantly, how would you define winning this war if in fact that is the case, because of kyiv surviving this onslaught by the russians? >> unfortunately i do not think yet that ukraine has won this war. it is hard to say that a country want a war, when foreign troops are still on ukrainian soil. and i think that the most important problem will be in donbas.

if russia is able to achieve its goals and capture mariupol, captcha kharkiv and move closer to the city of dnipro. which is located on that depot river. and ukraine will have a hard time defending the country. and we might see a new kyiv offensive and four key of it is important right now to defend those regions. we know that is why president zelenskyy has increased the plea to boris johnson to receive weapons. because we understand that war is ongoing. in the deadly fights are still waiting in donbas. and we understand that russia will not stop until it gets at least some kind of victory in ukraine. >> all right, oleksiy sorokin live for us in kyiv. good to see you again.

please stay safe, keep in touch, we will speak to you again in the weeks ahead. coming up, the january 6th committee believes that it has enough evidence to make a criminal referral for donald trump to the justice department. but first, my colleague richard louis is here with the headlines. hey richard. >> hayman, breaking news for you, president biden expected to roll out new -- set to a new nominee for the tobacco and firearms after his previous nominee withdrew in september. and he is expected to introduce measures that would make it harder for people to build and acquire those so-called ghost guns. two people were killed and ten others injured at a shooting at a nightclub in cedar rapids iowa early this morning. police say that there is no current threat to public safety there. and, at least 72 people of now tested positive for covid-19. after attending the gridiron

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but, its leaders are actually split on whether to send that referral to the justice department. in fact, they are afraid that it could backfire and create the perception of a politicized investigation. this morning, representative liz cheney, the vice chair of the committee said quote, it is absolutely clear that what president trump was doing and what a number of people around him were doing, that they knew it was unlawful. they did it anyway. earlier, news broke that just days after the 2020 election, donald trump jr. texted ideas on how to overturn the election results, to former white house chief of staff mark meadows. he did discussing all this more now with david cicilline from rhode island. good to have you on the show, thank you so much for joining us.

i want to get your reaction, if i can, to that new york times reporting that what you just read from a colleague representative cheney. where do you fall on that debate. would a referral to the department of justice, do more harm than good? >> look, i think that the january 6th commission has done an extraordinary job. they have deposed or interviewed more than 150 witnesses, collected 75 pages of documents. and are really doing a thorough job to be sure that they understand all the facts and circumstances that led to the planning and execution of an attempt to overthrow our democratically held election. and i think it is the responsibility of the january six commission. if they uncover, as i think they have, evidence of criminal wrongdoing, that they refer that to the attorney general for consideration on filing of criminal charges. no one in this country is above the law. i think that the american people expect the individuals responsible for planning and financing and executing these

violent attacks on our democracy, are going to be held accountable. it is really not up to the january six commission to decide who will be charged. we have the department of justice that will make that judgment. but if they have evidence of criminal conduct, as i think they have, they have a responsibility, i think a duty, to make that referral to the department of justice, for their consideration. >> congressman, i'm curious to get your thoughts on whether or not you share the frustration expressed by some members of your party over the way that the department of justice has moved on this. they say that the department is not moving quickly enough or aggressively enough against the former president. and the more high-profile actors, even when it comes to subpoenas. so in your capacity as a member of congress, with oversight in the department of justice, how do you feel about the way the department of justice is handling this. and have you had any interactions with the department of justice, or the attorney general and posed to them why they are doing it the way that they are doing it.

>> look, i think that the good news is that the attorney general does not much care about the frustration right now. and we want the attorney general to remain independent and to make judgments based on the facts and the law. but of course, i think that the american people are waiting for those responsible for this really bloody and deadly attack on our democracy to be held accountable. and our witnesses who have billed subpoenaed, who have willfully failed to appear ought to be charged and charged quickly. so i think that some of that is frustrating, but i would take my frustration any day over the kind of politicization in the justice department that we saw from the last administration. and i think that merrick garland is working hard to have restored the independence of the department of justice and free it from the kind of political interference that existed for the four years before president biden took office. and so i think that he will continue to move and move quickly. but i recognize if he has to make judgments based on the evidence and the law, as he determines to be appropriate.

i hope that they will make a referral and that he will make judgments that will ultimately hold everyone who is responsible for these events accountable and if that is the president, former president of the united states, him as well, no one in this country is above the law. >> you are a member of the house judiciary committee, and nbc news is obviously reporting that democrats on that committee are planning a closed-door meeting to discuss conflict of interest accusations against another important issue, that is the supreme court justice clarence thomas and his wife. and there has been a suggestion of a possible violation of a code of ethics, or even hearings against justice thomas over that conflict of interest. now what can you tell us specifically about those discussions and will there be closed-door hearings about whether there is a conflict of interest involving clarence thomas and his wife? >> i think many members of the judiciary committee are very concerned about these revelations. the integrity of our courts and

the confidence that the american people have in our court system is based upon confidence that decisions are made based on the law and the facts and not because of some improper influence or some conflict of interest. and so the revelations about ginni thomas and the decision by justice to be the only judge that sided with donald trump in refusing to provide documents to the january 6th commission, is very disturbing. and i think you know, the january six commission has work to do in this area and i expect that it will be part of their report. but this is of great concern to anyone that a justice of the supreme court, the wife of the justice was engaging in text messages with the chief of staff. really plotting, almost like a qanon subscriber about crazy theories of whether they should be allowed to substitute their judgment for the judgment of the american people and that is very disturbing. and members of the judiciary committee have been speaking about what we can do about this. we introduced just last week,

in a bicameral introduction of the 21st century court act, to bring greater transparency, to require the supreme court to develop a code of ethics that they follow and to hold them accountable for this kind of conduct. so we have some legislative solutions, we and this is a very serious concerns to members of the judiciary committee and i think the american people who will watch that story with considerable alarm, because they recognize that the supreme court makes decisions that affect our daily lives. and they ought to be beyond reproach. >> from one supreme court justice, let me ask you about an incoming supreme court justice, last weekend you had judge ketanji brown jackson confirmed to the supreme court. i want to play for you something that senator lindsey graham had to say just before that vote, watch. >> if we get back the senate and we are in charge of this body, and their is judicial openings, we will talk to our colleagues on the other side, but if we are in charge, she would not have been before this committee. >> throughout this whole

process congressman, there has been this noticeable lack of decorum from members of the republican party, and if this is what they are promising for future hearings, is it safe to say that this process is only going to get worse? >> yeah, i think the conduct that republican senators engaged in was really despicable. as this has been an extraordinarily qualified judge and now justice of the supreme court and i was at the white house to celebrate her confirmation. it is a great day for this country, and to watch republicans who were so disrespectful and at the same time pledge that they are going to deny the president his constitutional responsibility to appoint justices to the supreme court, if there are additional vacancies, is frankly disrespectful to the american people. they elected president biden as their president, under our constitution he gets to make appointments to the supreme court, not senators. and it is disgraceful and i think that if they do that, the american people are going to hold him accountable at the midterms and in 2024, because the american people elected joe

biden, they expect that he is going to make those judgments, it is not up to mitch mcconnell and republicans to decide who will be on the supreme court, and we know, if they denied merrick garland a hearing, they have politicized this process, they weaponized the supreme court, and now they're saying it out loud. that if they win the midterms, they are not going to allow the president to make appointments to the supreme court. that should be disturbing to every single person in this country. >> congressman, we are almost out of time, but i want to ask you very quickly. you are a co-chair of the congressional quality congress, the lgbtq equality caucus. what is your reaction to anti lgbtq laws that we are seeing across this country. do you believe that there is a federal role to step in here to protect equality for everyone in this country? >> absolutely. it is the legislation that i introduced, that we passed out of the house called the equality act. that will once and for all ban discrimination against americans based on sexual orientation and gender identity. we need to pass that in the senate. and these are really hideous

attacks, particularly on the trans community, that republican legislators are doing. and i think that they think because it is politically advantageous. discrimination is wrong, no one in this country should live a life subject to that kind of discrimination and we should all be able to live free from discrimination of any kind. the equality act will accomplish that, it is time for the senate to pass it. ,. . our, has always. >> thanks. see letitia james is taking new steps. that will explain them next. l explain them next. (vo) for me, one of the best things about life is that we keep moving forward. we discover exciting new technologies. redefine who we are and how we want to lead our lives. basically, choose what we want our future to look like. so what's yours going to be?

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hold and seal. clinically proven to give strongest hold, plus seals out 5x more food particles. fear no food. new poligrip power hold and seal. >> $10,000. that is why new york's attorney general letitia james is asking a judge to force donald trump to pay every single day until he turns over documents that he was ordered to turn over. in court filings this week, letitia james asked that the judge hold trump in civil

content for stonewall in her civil tax fraud investigation into the trump organization. and of course, trump responded by calling the claims you guessed it, a witch hunt. it is even more interesting here is that the attorney general might be working around trump just as she asked the judge to force a real estate farm to give her office a series of appraisals that they did for trump's business. let us bring in our sunday night panel to break all of this down for us. katie phang, host of the katie phang show here on msnbc. also joining us, democratic strategist and senior vice president of firehouse strategies michaelstarr hopkins and nbc news senior reporter brandy zadrozny. she is the host of the new podcast tiffany is dead. katie phang i will start with you. congratulations on your debut this weekend. usually don't get up that early on the weekends, but we are going to make an exception for with your shot 7 am. let me ask you at the gate,

what do you make of this move from the new york attorney general? $10,000 is a lot of money for someone like me. but for somebody like donald trump, is that enough, will actually compel him and force his hand and get him to turn over those documents? >> the $10,000 i would say ayman it is relatively symbolic, but it is the right move to make. let me break it down for you quickly. an order was entered by a judge, parties have to abide by those orders. and when a party does not abide by those orders, then you can move for contempt. the standard that has to be met legally, that trump intentionally and willfully violated that core order. so basically, the finance south is supposed to be there to be punitive in nature, but really at the end of the, day she wants or documents. and on the background on this, she negotiated with trump's team, his legal team, to give them more time to turn it over. and when that time expired, they then filed these ridiculous objections to

requests that they should've replied with turn of documents. so she is also running after 30 party subpoenas for people like wakefield who did the appraisals for those trump properties. that is another thing you do. you chase down these non parties, that are not part of litigation, that have relative discovery and you basically served motions, sorry serve subpoenas. and if they do not supply, you serve the motion. so what we are seeing here right now, it has teeth, let me be clear. the judge does not want to have his orders ignored. and if trump does not comply and he does not pay the fine, he could end up in jail eagle for civil content. >> michael, are trump's actions here from a political standpoint something that the democrats can and should still campaign on his corruption, the legacy of corruption that he left behind, not to mention his attempt to overthrow the elections. kevin mccarthy said that he would disband the january six committee and it gets me wonder, whether or not that is something that voters would actually care about going to the polls? >> you know, if democrats have

any chance on winning, any chance on being taken seriously, they really have to take it to republicans. they have to talk about the fact that hillary clinton sat for 11 hours during the benghazi selection and not only would donald trump not show up to the january six hearings, but he told his entire staff not to show up, and you've got jared kushner being at two billion dollar deal with saudis, after leaving office. there is this blatant corruption, that republicans put in the face of americans, and democrats and they have been perfect bad about really calling them out on it and using the tools that they have. >> the latest segment that we heard about the january six committee's fears that we issuing a criminal referral to trump would be seen as a politicized move, we were just discussing that with congressman david cicilline. you reported on the spread of misinformation regularly, even if the committee presented a mountain of solid, credible, ironclad evidence, would

actually change the minds of hard-core trump voters who are convinced that january 6th was antifa, or blm, or anybody, except donald trump? >> oh no, it would further, make them furthered again, to what they already believe. when we look at misinformation and covid and attitudes about covid like, before among republicans. when we see that in a lot of examples, people will cite specifically the russia investigation. other so-called with trends of donald trump and say see, you cannot trust these people for anything. it just kind of widens that partisan divide. this is really not my view, but just as a person it seems to me that this former president just gets out of everything. and whenever he is accused of something, it only emboldens his supporters to think that he has been wrong. >> katie, the manhattan district attorney has come under some heat, he said that

his office is investigating into trump remains ongoing. and this morning, you spoke with former trump fixer michael cohen, let me play for you what he said. >> they actually returned to me, thousands and thousands of original documents, now anybody that knows how the prosecutorial system works, yourself included, you know that they like to keep the originals, and the fact that they returned this box of documents, that i had provided, which in of itself is a roadmap to an absolute indictment and prosecution of not just donald, but the children, the organization, as well, the fact that they returned it to me, is to me, a clear indication that the case is not going to go forward. >> what do you make of that? does that sound like the investigation is ongoing. no, i think my face explained it all, i was totally befuddled,

could not hear what i was hearing, he has all of this information individual form, gave it to the office and he met with the now retired, resigned excuse me prosecutors, like he met with them and won't even meet with him, and that is why when you see somebody like james still going at it and still pursuing justice, it makes you feel better, because brad has been telling everybody, now, the investigation is not that, but we heard it today on msnbc, from michael cohen, that brags office returned these documents, which were crucial and critical documents according to michael cohen, that could prove the legal comparability of donald trump and others. so it is really shocking to hear this. and bryan is not going to do anything more than just cut your losses and go. but to continue to string people along, and think that you are actually doing it, it is just bad form as a prosecutor. >> let me just jump in. >> go for, go for. >> bragg ran on holding trump

accountable and ran on justice message. and then to turn around and as soon as he steps into office, to cancel the investigation, that is the kind of stuff that -- democrats are sick of it. we never fight. it's always republicans up fight. it is about time that we fight and hold people accountable. sorry to cut you off earlier. >> not at all. speaking of fighting, let us talk about ginni thomas and clarence thomas and their issue here. because i think if the shoe was on the other foot, what would be happening in congress if it was a republican controlled congress? with a democrat who had a potential -- democratic appointed supreme court justice who had a conflict of interest. because this week, a new poll shows that 53% of voters believe that justice thomas should recuse himself from all cases related to the 2020 election, because of his wife's actions. how should democrats fight this message on this issue? >> i really think that they

need to talk about that 81 vote. the fact that justice thomas was the lone dissent in a case that was involving his wife. now the american public at the time didn't know, but he knew. and that is the type of corruption, that is the type of flag right disrespect for democracy that i think democrats really need to hammer home every single day. >> katie, you wrote a piece for msnbc.com where you actually argue that we should quote, never move on from this ginni thomas news. i tend to agree with you on that. i think it is pretty significant. but make the case for us why this is significant enough for us to always be talking about? >> listen, in my piece, i sight to a federal statute that requires judges, and you, judge on any level, to have to recuse him and herself if there is even a reasonable question that you're or partiality or impartiality is going to be an issue. but, listen, clarence thomas, this is not anything new to him. since 1993, he has recused himself 54 times since 17 times

because his son had san sigh of interest in the outcome of the decision that was before him on scotus. and so he knows how to do it, the fact that he hasn't done it for ginni thomas's, his wife, the fact that he knows she does all these advocacy for far-right groups. and the fact that sorry, i he knew what she was doing for the january 6th insurrection. there's no way this woman walked out the door on january six and participated or want to the lips and did anything and she did know she was doing. so at the end of the day, he has a statutory obligation, because an ethical obligation, just because you are a judge, we are still governed by the rules of professional responsibility, because you are also a lawyer as a judge. >> yeah. and the democrats here are kind of tiptoeing around the issue. nobody really making strong calls for him seriously to either recuse himself or step down as we saw last week. i'm going to ask all three of you just grounds for, us we've got a lot more to discuss, still ahead, a nurse who famously fainted on camera after getting her covid vaccine, is not dead, but try telling

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hundreds of far-right activists gathered in los angeles today for a defeat the mandates rally. except the fact that all covid mandates in the u.s. have been pretty much repealed at this point. they still would've ahead and had it. the protesters are uniting their belief that we should abandon the fight against covid altogether. that actually makes sense ... some are spreading lies about vaccines and the virus in order to win the information battle. because, you know, that is a solid argument. if you have to lie to make your point. sunday night panel is back with the once again ... pretty, jokes aside for a moment, you were on the ground in los angeles today. tell me about what you saw and what was the motive behind what we saw today.

>> yeah ... i was in l.a.. it was a day. this is the second version of the defeat the mandates march or rally. the first was in d.c. in november. that rally was very, i would say, far-right. it did, it was a little more political. like, almost like a trump rally. this one today was markedly different. here is why. it was a collection of ... basically what it looked like was 2019, again. when california was arguing about childhood vaccine mandates. this was very much an anti vaccine rally, not just covid. they had jimmy mccarthy appear, via video. bob series appear. some of the original o g anti-vax cisa -- they literally said, we've been fighting this fight for

decades. now, you finally see the light. for me and for people that i talked to, health officials, doctors, that has been the sincere worry. all of this that facts act -- would spill over and back into childhood vaccination. we are talking about the big fears reemergence of diseases that we had eradicated, you know. measles, rising up in 2019. covid has allowed anti-vaxxers to gain hold. that is what i saw today. it was a wild rally. a lot of crazy accusations, misinformation, demonization of democratic politicians. anthony fauci, doctors in general. it was a wild time. >> but was the turnout like there? can you give us a sense of the images that we saw on the screen. what was the actual, you know, numbers, if you can put into context for us? was this a large crowd? like those of a similar nature?

>> so, it was about average for an anti vaccine rally. i think what is important to think about is that there are two sections in grand park. there is the first section, right by the stage. that probably had ... maybe on a good day, 1000 people were there. but then, they had gotten this whole overflow. they had a whole other screen, have people there. no one was there. there weren't enough people for that. and terms of like what that means for public health, i would say that is a small win. just because people weren't there doesn't mean that message didn't resonate. children's health defense, robert f. kennedy's -- were streaming it. a lot of people were watching on the internet. it's hard to say how many people might have been affected by some of the things they heard today. >> michael, i'm surprised that, you know, fury over vaccine and mandates have lasted this long. it seems like these people have gotten more radical as this

pandemic has gone on, regardless of what the numbers or the science or the trends of the pandemic are suggesting. >> well, when you look at the republican ecosystem, you have people like ron desantis, who are stars of the republican party, who every day talk abel how people shouldn't be wearing masks. this is all over. he has gotten the vaccine. he has gotten the booster. the republicans watching fox news, they are in an asylum. all they hear about is how the vaccines don't work, how fauci is, you know, this larger than life person manipulating society. walk into the day, this is the culture war. this is about a couple powerful republicans, wanting to win elections, using uninformed people as, kind of, their army. so, we are running into this really big problem in the country where the stupid are winning the war. democrats are having a hard problem.

for us, it is about facts, it is about truth, it is about recent. you're dealing with people who don't care about facts, don't care about reason, aren't that smart in the first place. there's no way to bring them over, have an honest conversation. >> brandi, tell me about the podcast i'm excited. sorry, go ahead. go ahead. we'll get your podcasts. >> i would love to tell you about my podcast. i just want to mention that, you know, push back a little bit. a lot of the people that i saw today. they are not stupid. they have been lie to. over and over and over again. they think they are looking at facts, right? they think they are looking at the data. it is because there are a couple of people who are motivated by money, by political, you know, gain to lie to these people on. it is really, really terrible. especially when you think about what happens when you don't get a vaccine because you are lied to. you could get sick, die. i just have to feel a little bit of empathy for the people who i saw this rally today.

happy to talk about my podcast. it follows a very specific line. it follows a very specific lie, that surrounding the nurse in tennessee who fainted when she got the shot. a lot of pretty terrible people, like i just talked about, wanted to use that story as a way to make a lot of people be afraid of the vaccine. it was a wildly, wildly successful disinformation campaign. i spent the last year of my life trying to untangle that, sort of, web of live following conspiracy theories, seeing who was affected, see who is harmed. tried to find a lasting impact. and, disproven. >> yeah. i just want to make our viewers aware, that is the podcast there on your screen. it is truth, is tiffany dover dead. make sure you download and listen to episode one. katie, this week, magic laziest waited out that there are two groups of people who are wrong.

those who insist that 2020 levels of covid restrictions are warranted in 2022. also, those insists that -- in 2022 retroactively shows that they were right to oppose restrictions in 2020. do you agree? >> quarterbacking via. you know, the problem that we have is ... wackadoo has been around for centuries. the problem that we have is legitimization of wackadoo. what i mean is, if you like medicine copper lesson in north carolina, saying that trump is going to be president again. when he is president again, fauci is going to be prosecuted. there is this concept of anti-vaxxers about autonomy. if you're gonna have autonomy, you're going to have personal count ability. that is the issue that we have with this anti vax, especially the anti covid affects concept. it's this idea that you should actually have accountability for not only your own actions, but how it impacts society at large. so, if you're someone like

madison -- taking the stage, talking about prosecuting fauci for doing his job, or if you're gonna get people like robert kennedy to go around and say that vaccines are bad and killing people, and brandi with this fantastic podcast ... trying to find this woman to verify she's alive or dead because of anti-vaxxers saying that there is a conspiracy theory. there is no accountability for lying. i think there has to be something that is done. whether you are -- or you're concerned about the intelligence scotia, it is harming people. if there's a harm, there has to be a consequence. >> absolutely. accountability is always the word of the day when you think about what is happening. no one being held accountable. thank you to katie, michael, brandi. we appreciate your time. once again, brandi's new podcast, tiffany dover's death. available april 18th. scan the qr code on your screen to listen to a preview. make sure you follow that podcast now. before we go, swing state --

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