week long. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. good evening. as you may have heard russia has defaulted on its foreign debt. apparently foreign banks do not accept turnips as money, so to make up the necessary cash russia will be holding a yard sale. get great deals like this commodore 64 with floppy disk drive, yours for only $5. or this 1992 spin doctors album, "little miss can't be wrong." this album rocks and the two princes agree. or this cat puzzle, missing just four pieces. i will tell you now it is just the left paw. how about a vhs tape of "overboard?" the chemistry between kurt russell and goldie hawn is pure magic.

>> wow. >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, april 12th. we begin with russian president vladimir putin turning to what looks similar to a stalin-esque purge within his government. although kremlin officials publicly claimed the war is going according to plan, behind the scenes about 150 agents from moscow's secret intelligence service, the fsb, have been, quote, purged since the war began. that's according to "the times" of london. some have been removed from their jobs, others arrested as putin looks to assign blame for russia's failures in ukraine. among those arrested, the head of the department directly responsible for overseeing affairs with ukraine. something all of those reportedly punished have in common is that they were all employed or formerly employed by a division once led by putin, the fifth service as it is called, was set up in the late

1990s to carry out operations in the countries formerly controlled by the soviet union. the goal of that division was to keep all of those nations in russia's orbit. >> and the stakes for vladimir putin may be getting higher as a historic holiday in russia approaches p according to u.s. military officials who spoke with "axios," putin is looking to end the war by may 9th, the anniversary of the soviet union's victory over naziie germ of germany in world war ii. to do this putin may be looking to claim a false victory or to take it to new levels to decimate his opponent. it seems unlikely but it does speak to the fact he will re-intensify as he regroups and targets the east here and we may see some of the ugly, barbaric tactics like we have seen in "the bahamas great exuma

classic bucha and mariupol. >> joining us mark joe, one of the agency's most decorated officers. we talk to mark joe in the midst of unbelievable horrors of what has happened to the people there and potential word. >> horrors all over. let's talk about "the times" of london report first, mark, if we can. this wouldn't be a surprise, would it? after all, we know about the stalin purges in the 1930s where stalin got rid of everybody around him, killed everybody, had show trials, purged him. so much so when world war ii started he had a dysfunctional army and hitler was able to just fly through russia. talk about putin and why this would make sense, why "the times" of london report would make sense. >> sure. so i find this, you know,

plausible, you know, and as i study leadership, joe, as you know, i wrote a book on leadership, so i'm asking myself why putin is doing this. there's two reasons. one is he needs a scapegoat. the fsb has done an abysmal job. they were supposed to be operational prep of the environment before the ukraine invasion and that means setting the stage for the russian military to quickly take over and they didn't do it. he is looking for a scapegoat. what is interesting is this entity, which is essentially the fsb, they have an odd internal appendage that deals with how to tamp down the former soviet states, and it is a scapegoat. i think it is a sign that the invasion has gone catastrophically bad and he needs a scapegoat and he seems to have found one. >> "the times" of london report though, what is interesting is they talk about the 150 officers

that are purged. again, we have been hearing all along one of the reasons the military is not doing so well is because putin is an intel guy, that putin always treated his military people like second class citizens. so he would like to the intel services. this is his own service. this is where he comes from, and we've heard one report after another about how putin is just out of his mind right now angry because of the fact that joe biden and pentagon spokesman is telling him what is happening in his own country before he finds out himself, telling him what is happening on the battlefield before his own people can tell him that. how could putin and the intel services have gotten this so monumentally wrong? >> so i think this shows that there's a level of kind of dysfunction and corruption within the fsb and, frankly, in the russia military as well. you know, there's a tendency with all dictators to surround

themselves with sycophants. they only want information that's going to be positive. i think that's what has happened here. what is interesting is particularly in the fsb there's no desire or tendency to tell the truth, particularly if it is bad news. we tell our policymakers the truth regardless of political consequences. in russia that's not the case. there's a famous adage if you do something like that there's an apartment window you can fall out of. putin knows he has problems. we have gotten into his head with these authorized disclosures, the administration has moved brilliant, and putin may learn more about what is happening in the war from western media, from u.s. spokespersons rather than from his own people. >> so talk about, again, just -- again, so we in america can understand this better, talk about the mindset of tyrants.

you and other cia agents have seen infamous footage when one such purge was going on inside iraq. >> right. in 1979 there's famous video footage that has been well-seen in the halls of langley where i used to work, where saddam hussein smoking a cigar called out his part officials to stand up, admit their failures and they're taken off for execution. it is sick and deranged. what they do to is to instill fear to get everybody in line short term, but long term it does not breed loyalty or a professional class and it certainly doesn't breed the ability or anyone to tell the dictator the truth. >> marc, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate you being with us. our condolences, of course, from red sox nation for last night. let's bring in ed luce. ed, of course, with "the

financial times." ed, it is so baffling for western intelligence we have gotten putin so wrong, we have gotten the russian military so wrong, we have gotten the people around him so wrong. this "times" of london report, this 150 in the purge. he has blamed his own for the failure. this is a guy who, my god, could end up like stalin and purging everybody around him. >> yeah, he could. of course, you know, we in recent past, not immediately recent past, have our own history of intelligence failures. you don't need to be anna okay be an autocracy for this.

we are aware of the political system they have in russia, and our intelligence agencies are now redeeming themselves because they have a president who is asking for accurate information rather than information that suits his world view in the form of joe biden. look, putin is a classic example. autocrats get more paranoid the longer they're in power. they know they're not going to retire. they are deeply fearful of plots to remove them, and, therefore, they tend to shrink the group of people around them to those they trust. in putin's case it was clearly his former comrades in the fsb, kgb with whom he had worked all his life and whom he shared a philosophy that the soviet union had betrayed itself under gorbachev when it disbanded the empire.

i don't think any of this should be surprising to us. the question now is he has appointed a military commander, having lacked a military commander all along in the form of aleksandr dvornikov, who is known as the butcher of syria. he is the guy who levelled aleppo. he is the guy who committed extraordinary human rights abuses, mostly from the air in syria. i believe, therefore, this is a very ominous signal of the kinds of escalation and methods that the russians are prepared to use between now and maybe may the 9th is the date in putin's head. but in the near future. >> also a sign that it is not going as planned. new reporting from "the new york times" -- >> an understatement. >> -- reveals as a campaign of terror by russian forces against the people of bucha, and the details are so graphic

and horrific tell "the times" that a sniper in a high-rise fired at anybody who moved. other soldiers, tortured, raped and executed in back yards. "the times" says the evidence suggests the russians killed recklessly and sometimes sadistically, in part out of revenge. "the times" reports unsuspected civilians were carried out of the simplest of daily activities. a retired teacher was shot mid morning on march 5 as she opened her front door on a small side street. her body lay twisted, half inside the door, more than a month later. willie. >> that's just one of thousands of stories like it. in the east the mayor of mariupol says more than 10,000

civilians have been killed in the city since the russian attack started six weeks ago. according to the associated press, he also warned the death toll could surpass 20,000, describing the horrors his city is facing he says corpses are carpeted through the streets. he also accused forces of blocking humanitarian forces from entering the city, in part to conceal the carnage from the outside world. he went on to say they're using mobile -- joining us, raf sanchez in lviv, ukraine. back to mariupol in a moment. let me ask you about the idea of russian forces regrouping and preparing something for the east

of ukraine that could look like mariupol, that could look like bucha. >> of. >> reporter: yes, willie, u.s. officials saying every day they're sighing more russian tanks, more russian armor, more russian troops heading east towards the donbas region. the uk military intelligence saying to expect the fighting to escalate significantly there over the next two to three weeks. a lot of the troops who previously were encircling kyiv went north to belarus. they resupplied, they regrouped, they rearmed and they're now heading east towards the donbas. now, the ukrainians have sent some of their best troops to that region and they are saying though that this will be a very different fight to what we've seen so far. this may look more like the second world war, large, pitched battles with formations of tanks and artillery going up against each other. that is a situation that may favor the russians. it means they will be fighting a lot closer to their borders, their supply lines will be a lot

shorter than they have been previously, and the ukrainians won't be able to carry out the kind of guerilla warfare, the kind of hit-and-run tactics that they have used so successfully around kyiv. this will be a difficult fight for the ukrainian forces but president zelenskyy says it is one they can win as long as they get the weapons that they need from the u.s. and other western nations. willie. >> and we're already seeing columns of tanks miles long moving in that direction. we will keep a close eye on that. raf, zelenskyy is condemning statements by a russian separatist leading calling for the use of chemical weapons against ukrainian troops in mariupol. in his nightly arrest, president zelenskyy said his government takes the threats seriously. according to "the new york times" a russian the separatist leader said that moscow could, quote, bring in chemical forces to use in mariupol to, quote, smoke out the moles, referring to ukrainian forces.

meanwhile, the azov regiment is alleging a drone dropped a poise nuts substance in mariupol. "abc news" has not been able to independently verify the plane. the pentagon says it cannot confirm the possible use of chemical weapons adding it is closely monitoring those reports. in a statement press secretary john kirby writes, these reports, if true, are deeply concerning and reflective of concerns that we have had about russia's potential to use a variety of riot control agents including tear gas mixed with chemical agents in ukraine. obviously, raf, everyone be close with their language. if there was a chemical weapon deployed in the war it obviously changes everything. what more can you tell us about those reports? >> reporter: yeah, willie. as you said, these claims are coming from the azov regiment. they are the far right group that is leading the defense of mariupol. they say late last night several of their soldiers were hit with

what they say are chemical weapons dropped by a russian drone. as you said, we have not independently verified that claim. earlier this morning the ukrainian deputy defense minister said she was not able to verify it earlier. she said initial indications are it may be phosphorous. it is not typical of what we say of chemical weapons. the british foreign secretary said if the russians were using chemical weapons it would be a calluses congratulations and one moscow needs to pay a price for. that is something that is easy to say. it is more difficult to do. willie, you will remember president obama drawing that figurative red line about chemical weapons use in syria, telling the syrian regime if they used chemical weapons it could trigger american military response. they did use chemical weapons.

there was no american military response. president biden, secretary of state blinken were both in the obama administration at the time. they will be very wary of drawing any red lines that they don't plan to enforce. the white house has said that if the russians do use chemical weapons there would be a proportionate response. they haven't given any details on what that means. willie. >> again, nbc has not confirmed that report, but it would cross a line, as you say, raf. raf sanchez in lviv for us this morning. thanks so much. jonathan lemire is here with me at the table, he's the host of "way too early" and the white house political chief at "politico." let's talk about what russia is up to in the east. if there's a new offensive and they resort to the tactics we have seen in bucha and mariupol, does it change the calculus at all with president biden and the white house? can they afford to stand by and watch this happen?

>> they're guarding themselves for a long conflict. as raf said it would be more of a set piece battle with a lot of artillery with advantages for russia. it is closer to russian territory, supply chains shorter, they know the terrain better. there's been on and off fighting for years in that area now. that's why we've heard more increasingly desperate cries for more anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons. the u.s. and the west are trying to get it there as quickly as they can. if, indeed, chemical weapons have been introduced, that does change things. the u.s. has not confirmed this. the azov is not reliable in many ways. i was cautioned when chemical weapons were used in syria it took quite sometime to confirm that was, indeed, the case. we shouldn't necessarily expect an immediate response here, but the biden administration in the early days of this conflict, the language was there would be a

response in kind if chemical weapons were used. they then walked off that and said it doesn't mean we will use chemical weapons back but there will be a proportional response here that would up the stakes. right now the administration is being very careful to see what exactly happened. they're going to take their time to evaluate it, but it undoubtedly would change the course of the war. perhaps, one official said to me, that might be the straw that causes -- that breaks the camel's back, if you will, and causes europe to totally severe itself from russian oil and gas if chemical weapons were used and it would increase that much more the flow of arms to the front. >> all right. let's bring in national executive director of the association of the u.s. navy, jason beardsly. he is a decorated combat veteran and intelligence officer with a combined 22 years of fleet, navy, army, special forces and joint special operations experience. sir, thank you for being on this morning. it appears putin is regrouping

in some way, shape or form. if chemical weapons cannot be confirmed, is it safe to make an assumption they are an inevitability in this war? >> well, thank you for the introduction. i think an inevitability is a little bit too aggressive. obviously the russians are not acting like a professional military. that's pretty habitual for them. you talk about the bucha massacres and what we saw in syria. this is not a disciplined military, and on top of that, as your reporting has laid out wonderfully this morning, everything from the beginning of this invasion from intelligence to military logistics and supplies has been a mess. now putin is looking to take out that vengeance on his internal fsb agents as well as the military. this thing is a disaster. the real advantage here for president biden is to really enter -- just to interject into this campaign right now as they're shifting to the east more lethal munitions. that has to be done asap. >> yeah. jason, first of all, thank you so much for your service to our

country. >> uh-huh. >> we are so indented to you. thank you for being with us this morning. i'm herous. i'm curious. we are hearing about a phase that the war is about to go in with more world war ii type battles with heavier armor. obviously that doesn't play into the ukrainians' hands. if you were directing ukrainian forces over the next three weeks or a month, what would be your strategy? what should they be doing? >> well, number one, they need to continue what is essentially maneuver warfare, harassing and interdicting these war lines. talking about weapons that are created like the switchblade that will loiter over a target and then detonate, moving at small numbers at night, guerilla warfare tactics. we don't want to paint with a general brush, but set piece warfare that russia tried to do

in kyiv and kherson and mariupol and all of these places that it is failing them. they're putting their tanks, ducks in a row on elevated road. that's a guaranteed target, bulls eye painted on them. if ukraine knows how to do this they will interact with them behind the lines and separate the columns. bear in mind russia is dealing with a lot of problems, communications, command and control. bear in mind dvornikov is in charge of the east and has been already. i don't look for new warfare involved in this so that means ukraine has a bit of time to get in front of this but they need the u.s. weapons. for my money i don't understand why that's so slow. logistics is something we do well. this war has come down to logistics. >> i wanted to ask you about that, about the united states and nato's effort to get the weapons in and your assessment as someone who watched a lot of this and participated in military battle, about how we're doing in terms of supporting

ukraine. a couple billion dollars worth of military equipment, crippling sanctions on their economy. there's a lot that's been brought to bear here. are there other steps you see as possible, because the truth is, as you point out, it is going to be ugly in the east because it has been ugly everywhere elsewhere russia has been. >> yeah, most certainly. first of all, we have done a tremendous amount of things on background, intelligence, our special operations have been in there for eight years training the ukrainian forces. that's why you see a lot of successes on the ground. but there are simple things that we ought to be doing like insuring they have encrypted communications. they use these handheld harris radios and to be able to hit a satellite with those and turn them on encrypted allows for the ukrainians to do more quickly than relying on interpersonal communications that's secure. when they keyed the hand mikes in 2004, they were open and russians found them and within seven minutes dropped artillery

on those locations. it is such a simple part of warfare that's one thing the u.s. should be pressing for, get radios in their hand, get the satellite channels licensed for them and make sure they have the encryption. that kind of thing can change the battle. switchblade drones they should be ramping up production of those and making sure they're supplied to the interior as quickly as possible. i'm surprised it hasn't happened already. >> ed luce of the financial times is with us with a question for you. ed. >> thanks very much for the points you are making. there was a larger question about the military doctrine that we heard so much about russian preparing with the alleged modernization with its military over the last few years. clearly that didn't pan out the way the russians or putin thought it would. part of that doctrine is integrating the use of tactical and nuclear weapons into

russian's conventional military plans. should we be worried about that? to what degree do we know just how close the trigger would be for use of those tactical nuclear weapons? >> right. i think, first of all, it is a great point. they have employed that sort of in their theoretical strategies. this was written up. it is a concern. we know the russians, again, are not a disciplined force. they've done these civilian massacres so it is high on our concern list. however, we've seen so far enough restraint to suggest that the plans that russia had in mind failed in the first 24, 48 hours, and now they're recovering and looking to reposition, restrategize for donbas. it is an old war, it has been on for a while so the ukrainians have experience there. i don't think we will look at tactical nukes. i think putin know he's under pressure. they're losing on every single front including their intelligence. bear in mind, to get the

commands down to the troops they need the field officers and the strategic military generals to actually execute those commands. i think a lot of people would be reticent to doing that right now. the morale in the russian force is very, very low. again, that's an advantage for president biden if we can interrupt what is happening on the battlefield and change the game a little bit. >> all right. national executive director of the association of the u.s. navy, combat veteran and intel officer, jason beardsley. thank you so much. we greatly appreciate you being here. again, thank you so much for your service to the united states of america. >> willie, just -- i mean this is just stating the obvious but let's just state the obvious again. it is just shocking how the russians have failed to the massive degree that they've failed on intel, on the battlefield, in what they're supposed to be so vaunted at

doing, at disinformation. you have got now this morning we start with this "times" of london report that putin is purging his own. he is purging the very people that he built his regime on, not the military but his intel officers. 150 reportedly purged. i just -- i've got to say nobody in the world saw this coming. it is so shocking just how weak, just how bad they are. >> it was about two months ago or so, if you look at the calendar, when the conventional wisdom was that putin was going to roll into kyiv, he was going to install a new government, zelenskyy was going to be out and he would pull ukraine over time back toward what he believed its rightful place at home with russia in the old soviet union. boy, has he failed on every front. when you're -- you know, stalin is one of his great heroes. he is behaving like stalin, purpging his own fsb, arresting

opposition leaders, going into homes and arresting people suspected of speaking to journalists so he can control the message he is pumping to his own people to hide what is happening there. this couldn't be going worse. he has been humiliated on the international stage, and that, as we've been hearing all morning, is what scares a lot of people. he is humiliated so what will he do next now that he is backed into a corner. >> yeah, i think it was a lot easier for putin and others like him when the internet didn't exist and when there wasn't communication around the world that could get to the russian people. there's a certain number of young russian people who have access to information outside of russia. it is not like it used to be. >> by the way -- >> that's a big part of this. >> -- also, we have been talking about these polls and we have been warned time and again over the past week and pelle like julia ioffe, people like ambassador mcfaul, people that know russia have said it is a

totalitarian dictatorship. people aren't going to tell the truth on the phone when people are asking how they feel. so, again, we are really -- we don't know how they feel because he's an autocrat. he is a tyrant. like you said, he is going in, he is arresting people in their homes. so, again, it seems to me that may 9th date we are hearing floated about may be his safest way out. he needs to figure out a way to save face before this breaks open at home still ahead on "morning joe," the leader of austria makes a direct appeal to vladimir putin, but the message falls on deaf ears. how the russian president responds to the west's accusations of war crimes in ukraine. plus, how an army of citizens found a new calling in poland. many are putting thriving careers on hold to help ukrainians, even if it puts their own financial futures in jeopardy. you are watching "morning joe."

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♪♪ 42 past the hour. a live look at the white house as the sun has come up over washington, d.c. time to get to work. nearly 3 million ukrainians have fled to poland, if you can imagine. now an impressive and selfless new effort is underway to care for those who need it the most. joining us now nbc news

correspondent josh letterman. he has new reporting called "professionals in poland find new calling, helping ukrainian refugees." josh there just hasn't been this much of an influx from one country to another that i can remember. >> certainly not in europe since world war ii, mika. we have talked a lot about the incredible generosity of polish citizens who are giving up their spare bedrooms, their spare food, in some cases their spare cash to help ukrainians. but a smaller sub set of polish citizens is taking this a step farther, literally walking away from their careers to free up all of their time to help ukrainians, and we are not talking necessarily about people who have any kind of a humanitarian background. we are talking about attorneys, private equity investors, big tech entrepreneurs who are literally quitting their jobs. it is kind of a twist on what we saw here in the united states and other countries during covid

in what has been called the great resignation or the big quit. people saying, you know what? this salary is not necessarily work the sacrifices i'm making and not fulfilling to me, and making the decision to go a different direction. i talked to a guy name antec it is rabinsky in warsaw who was working for a land development company. he said, you know what? i don't like my job that much. it is not somebody that means anything to me. he put in his two weeks notice and now is spending his time coordinating a network of 1,500 volunteers who drive refugees when they show up at the border to other places in poland for them to resettle. i also spoke to a man named cuba laing who ran his own software company. when the war started he decided to convince his business partners to completely buy out his stake so he could focus full-time on starting a new ngo

to help ukrainian children. i asked him why this was so important to him. this is what he told me. >> so i think the reason why the whole nation and actually the whole world is that poland was left out in 1949 and i was brought up in a family where my grandfather was in seven nazi camps. i'm kind of continuing from him in auschwitz and in the house and in the room where i was brought up we were hiding jews. it is kind of the family things in terms of helping others and saving the unprivileged. >> clearly, mika, not everyone can make the decision to just quit their jobs and leave their salaries behind to be able to focus on what is essentially a volunteer effort. some of the folks we met told us that they are eating up their savings. others still have small streams

of income coming from their former business endeavors. others are simply trying to make do with less. the polish government is now giving pols who host ukrainian refugees in their home 40 per day per refugee but it is an amount that only adds up to a little less than $10 here in the u.s. mika. >> all right. nbc's josh lederman. thank you so much for that report. ed luce, not to complicate this, but the overall open arms from poland to the ukrainians is a tremendous, remarkable story. i just know from hearing from my family over there, i mean the embassy is just being besieged with calls and they're trying to coordinate all of the different efforts to help. i am wondering if you think that what is driving this is that just too much history is rhyming here with what the pols have

been through in their lives and history, knowing too much about what the ukrainians are going through right now and really kind of a sense of connection perhaps they couldn't have with any other country. >> yeah, that's very well put, the rhyming element of this. i mean, of course, as you know, mika, the border, the polish border and ukrainian border have waxed and waned through history and through the 20th century. >> rights. >> parts of what is now ukraine used to be part of poland and there's an enmeshing of the two cultures that is very rare for any two countries. ironically, there's probably more enmeshing between poland and ukraine in spite of what putin thinks than there is between ukraine and russia. so i'm sure that there's this very strong feeling amongst pols not only are they part of our culture, but there but for the grace of god go i because poland

is probably of any single nation the biggest victim throughout history of russian imperial designs and partitions and carvings up. but the scale of having 3 million people in the space of seven weeks come from another country when your own population is, what, about 37 million, 38 million, we are talking almost 10% increase to poland's population in less than two months. nothing like this has been seen in europe since the second world war. nothing nowhere close. the only parallel i can think of, which is often overlooked, is turkey absorbing 3 million, 4 million syrian refugees. they've absorbed them very, very well and not got much credit for it. that's the only real parallel i can think of to what poland is doing for its ukrainian neighbors right now.

>> all right. ed luce, appreciate that. coming up, we have been following a lot of stories here including the economy, the inflation numbers expected to come out about 8:30 eastern time. we will bring those to you live. stephanie ruhle will be joining us to break down the immediate reaction. the white house bracing for extraordinary elevated numbers, very difficult economy numbers about to come out. also, in our 9:00 a.m. hour andrew ross sorkin will join us to go through what this all means. we will be right back with much more "morning joe." for investors who can navigate this landscape, leveraging gold, a strategic and sustainable asset... the path is gilded with the potential for rich returns.

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a top u.s. general is accusing russia of jamming the gps signal american satellites provide to ukraine. nbc news correspondent tom

costello has more. >> reporter: from drones in the skies to targeted missile launches on the ground, the war in ukraine is heavily dependent on technology, but a four star general at the pentagon says russia is interfering with the u.s.-provided gps signals in ukraine. >> ukrainians unable to access gps because it has been jammed locally on the ground? >> that's right. ukrainians may not be able to use gps because there are jammers around that prevent them from receiving and using the signal effectively. >> reporter: while russia and china have their own gps satellite, most of the world relies on the gps provided by the u.s. for free. >> thank you. >> reporter: it is up to the u.s. space force, the newest branch of the military, to watch over the orbiting gps satellites from this command center in colorado. >> each satellite actually broadcasts multiple signals, so the civilians get their signal, the military gets their signal. >> reporter: interestingly, the russians and the chinese can use our gps satellites as well.

>> i bet you they do. >> reporter: and gps has become a vital, everyday tool, from suburban drivers to international shipping to farming to banking to disaster response to those ukrainian military units. meanwhile, russia has also reportedly jammed the gps systems used by civilian aircraft along its borders with finland. so far u.s. commanders say russia has not attacked u.s. gps satellites in orbit, though it did test fire a weapon destroying one of its own satellites. >> they were also making a very clear statement to us about their intention to threaten our capabilities. >> reporter: sabre rattling in space and on the ground. >> nbc's tom costello reporting for us there. coming up, former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, bill taylor joins our conversation. plus, a report from china as that country uses extreme measures to fight its worst covid outbreak since the start of the pandemic. "morning joe" is coming right back on a tuesday morning.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, april 12th. look at that beautiful shot of new york city. jonathan lemire is still with us, and msnbc contributor mike barnicle joins us as well. good to have you all with us this hour. we will begin this hour with a renewed concern that russian forces are preparing for another assault in other parts of eastern ukraine. a senior u.s. defense official tells nbc news the pentagon is monitoring efforts by the russian military to resupply and reinforce troops in the donbas reason. satellite images show what officials say is an eight-mile-long convoy -- >> that looks familiar. >> -- of russian vehicles traveling in the direction of

izyum. the u.s. intelligence aligns with warning from ukrainian leaders who are sounding the alarm about a new wave of attacks in the region. it is believed recent airstrikes targeting airports, railways and other key infrastructure in the donbas are setting the stage for a major battle there. in response to those recent russian air attacks, pentagon press secretary john kirby says the u.s. is working to get more defensive weapons into ukraine. >> we are working with allies and partners to help -- to help get long-range air defense systems into ukraine and we're -- secretary is working this personally, working with allies and partners to see what they can do. >> the pentagon says it expects more, quote, brutality from the newly appointed russian commander who has been chosen to oversee now the war in ukraine.

>> he and other senior russian leaders have shown in the past, and you mentioned syria as one example, have shown clearly in the past their disregard for avoiding civilian harm, their utter disregard in many ways for the laws of war, laws of armed conflict. and the brutality with which they conduct and execute their operations. we are probably turning another page in the same book of russian brutality. >> the kremlin recently apounced general aleksandr dvornikov who has a record of brutal attacks against civilians in syria and other wars. hills appointment comes after russian forces failed to capture the ukrainian capital of kyiv and surrounding areas. let's bring in former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, bill taylor, and former spokesperson to the united nations who worked at the nfc and the treasury

department. let me begin with you. you have studied general dvornikov very closely. tell our viewers who he is and why it is an ominous development. >> he is a senior russian general. he was awarded with medal in russia called the hero of russia. if you see it on russia, that is why. it is not google saying he is a hero. it was following his behavior, his leading the mission in syria and particularly aleppo and how brutally he approached aleppo which was by bulldozing the entire city and recklessly and ruthlessly killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians there, is what landed him that award. he has a long history before syria as well. he is the one who led the charge of russia into grozny in chechnya. he is the worst of the worst in the russian military and he's

actually the ones who is what flipped the switch in syria. up until he led that operation in syria the syrian government was really losing that war, and it was russia's participation, russia's obviously provision of weapons, arms and financing that switched things around for syrian president assad and it is largely due to him. he has been involved in ukraine actually now for some time, but there has been nobody appointed by the russians to oversee the entire military operation at war in ukraine until now. >> ominous sign for sure. russian president vladimir putin is now turning to what looks similar to a stalinesque purge within his government. although kremlin officials publicly claimed the war is going according to plan, behind is scenes 150 agents from the secret intelligence service, the fsb, have been, quote, purged since the war began according to

"the times" of london. some have been removed from their jobs and others arrested as putin looks to assign blame for russia's failures in ukraine. among those arrested the head of the department directly responsible for overseeing affairs with ukraine, of. something all of those reportedly punished have in common is they were all employed or formerly employed by a division once led by putin. the fifth service, as it is called, was set up in the late 1990s to carry out operations in the countries formerly controlled by the soviet union. the goal of that division, joe, was to keep all of those nations in russia's orbit, which is very much what he is trying to do with ukraine right now. >> obviously not -- >> and struggling. >> obviously, ambassador taylor, not working so well. i'm curious. you obviously spent much time studying vladimir putin. what is your read on this "times" of london report and how

ominous is it that he is conducting purges of those closest to him as well as the military? >> well, joe, it is an indication that he has big problems. he might now start to be figuring out that he's got these problems and he realizes that his intelligence and probably his own attitudes towards ukraine have been wrong. he has misunderstood ukraine. he has misjudged ukraine. he has focused on, obsess it with ukraine, to the degree that he didn't understand it. he thought it would be an easy win and it wasn't. the ukrainians are much tougher, are much more of a nation, much more of a people, much more unified than he thought, joe. >> of course, his actions have only served to make them more unified, more of a nation, more of a people with a purpose, and that purpose is to drive out vladimir putin and the russian storm troopers that have come into the country. i'm curious. you are hearing like we are about the new phase of the battle headed east, and, of

course, we have been warned day after day, week after week, hold on because this is when russia and their massive forces are going to roll over ukraine. we are hearing it again in the east. i'm a bit skeptical. i am curious what your thoughts are. are the ukrainians up to the battle? >> ukrainians will fight to the end, joe. there's no doubt. the question is can we provide enough weapons for them. mika asks this every time, do they get enough? we'll know if they're going to get enough. we will know if they've gotten enough when they win. if they win, they will have gotten enough. you are right about this next phase. this could even include chemical weapons. we are hearing some stories about chemical weapons not yet confirmed but it is a real concern in mariupol. >> yeah. mike barnicle, when i say i'm skeptical, i'm skeptical things are going to magically turn around for the russians just because they're trying to consolidate an area in the don

donbas that they haven't been able to nail down for eight years. yes, they're bringing in a mass murderer, they're bringing in a war criminal. that war criminal, it is not like he hasn't been called into action since the beginning of the debacle. now "the times" of london reports that putin is having to purge those closest to him, the very people he depended on to rise to power. he is increasingly isolated. his military is increasingly in disarray. now we are hearing about this may 9th deadline or this may 9th date that putin wants to end the war by. it sounds like a pretty good idea to me if you are vladimir putin, get this behind you as fast as possible. >> yeah, may 9th is going to be a critical date. the celebration, the yearly celebration of the end of world war ii, russian's victory in world war ii, defeating the germans, helping the allies win world war ii.

ambassado taylor, what i would like you to tell us, given your knowledge of ukraine, given your knowledge of the topography of ukraine, this new set battle with a new commander of a totally undisciplined army, am i wrong in thinking that the initial stages of this battle visually will remind people of old world war ii climbs of the panza division rolling across poland? >> i think you are exactly right. i think you are exactly right. the planes out there, the steps really of what we are talking about, and that's good for tanks. it is good for mounted artillery. it will look like world war ii. that said, those troops, they've been in the field for a long time. they've been in the field, what, since december or january and they got beaten up, really baldly beaten up around kyiv. now they're having a long move. joe is right about that convoy. we have seen a convoy get beaten

up before and the ukrainians will fight that one. it is more difficult out there because in the north there were forests. in the east that we're looking at now it is more wide open. it will be a challenge for the ukrainians, but the challenge the ukrainians will meet. >> by the way, hagar, if putin's goal was to break up nato and cleave it apart, it is adding members now. finland and sweden expected to join this summer. let's talk about the may 9th date. does it stand out to you as something significant that actually putin may want some kind of victory, whatever it means, whatever it looks like, to claim on that date? is that important to him? >> in history he has shown, he likes history. maybe he lies a lot about you but he likes history and he tries to be poetic about these type of things. a lot of russian experts believe he will look to try to make a

a celebratory moment that he will look to. the fact they have moved to the east because they were probably spread too thin and didn't expect the resistance they faced from the ukrainians, the move to the east is what we saw in syria. it is their playbook. it is just that we didn't act as much on it. we didn't see the u.n. falter as much about it. this guy, this aleksandr dvornikov, he should have been claimed as a war criminal years ago. he should have been charged with that. we know this. they have evidence of his behavior, and yet it is only now that it is coming. so i expect things to worsen over the next 30 days, and when the ambassador said, ambassador bill taylor, when he said that putin has made this gross miscalculation, this is one of the reasons to show that nato is not only going to be further

emboldened but probably expanded further. i don't blame finland or sweden for joining nato. that's what i would do if i were them. >> putin has a fondness for pegging things to certain dates. people i have spoken to are not sure of the may 9th one. we don't know of the report from the azov battalion that the chemical weapons were used. a proportional response, there is a difference, as horrible as all weapons on there's a difference between phosphorous attack and using sarin gas on a population. what sort of provisions will the u.s. make to respond in kind? >> i have had the bad experience of handling syria at the white house when the infamous red line comment was made. the problem with that is that it is something that will come to bite us now as dictators all over the world including president putin will think to thinks, well, you made that red

line for syrian president assad and when it was confirmed he used chemical weapons against his people you didn't do anything at all. apart from work with the russians to dismantle some of their chemical weapons inside syria, but it didn't do anything because they continued to use them. that's what they know and have seen. when president biden came out and was vague about the response but that it would be proportionate at that time and nato would figure it out, that kind of unpredictability and vague communication helps when dealing with a dictator. the only problem is that i don't -- i wouldn't expect it to hold putin back based on how he saw the united states not enforce that red line in syria back in 2013, but the type of proportionate response, i just don't see us even with that militarily engaging the russian government. that doesn't mean there aren't things we could do. >> so the first western leader

to meet with vladimir putin since the war began says he fears the russian president will drastically escalate attacks in ukraine. austrian chancellor karl nehammer said in his meeting in moscow yesterday that it was, quote, not a friendly visit and that he had a tough and direct conversation with vladimir putin. he told reporters the battle being threatened cannot be underestimated in its violence. he also said putin was dismissive of atrocities in ukraine and accused ukrainians of staging war crimes. nehammer has faced some criticism for having the meeting with putin, but the austrian chancellor says he felt a duty to, quote, leave no stone unturned. this comes after he met with ukrainian president zelenskyy over the weekend and visit it bucha where more and more horrors are being uncovered as the days go by. joe. >> so, ambassador taylor, we

have seen this time and time and time again, macron goes over there, the new german chancellor goes over there, this continues. putin obviously still operating on its own internal timeline and really the only good sight it seems -- the austrian leader, it seems to me the only good intel we have gotten from turkey, the negotiations, who told us that -- i think it was a foreign minister of turkey who said a couple of weeks ago the only thing, the only thing putin is waiting for is a chance to save face so he can go to the negotiating table in a position of strength instead of weakness. >> absolutely. no, he needs something, joe. he does need something and there are some things that have been on the table that his people have been talking to the ukrainians, as we've talked about before, the ukrainians have been making some suggestions, working this problem. they've made some proposals

like austrian neutrality is on the table. it is hard for the ukrainians to negotiate when nothing is coming back, number one. it is hard for the ukrainians to negotiate when the russians are killing people wantonly, brazenly, innocent people. the atrocities we are seeing, how do you negotiate with someone like that? so the ukrainians are gritting their teeth. they're trying to find a way to end this war, cease-fire, withdraw, and it is hard because the russians are just not there. >> so, jonathan lemire, modi of india had a call with president biden yesterday as well. the united states, president biden trying to sort of getting india to move a little bit here. they've been, if not sympathetic, staying out of this, providing gas, oil, all of the relationships they have with russia right now. was any progress made out of there and why do you suspect india has been sitting on the

sideline here? >> yeah, the world's largest democracy has not joined the rest of the world's democracies in this struggle against russia. they've stayed largely neutral. they have supplied moscow with cheap energy allowing russia to fuel their war machine. modi said he would help ukraine with supplies but didn't go much further. how key is this ally here? we know russia has received much of the attention from trying to isolate them and not having success yet. do you suspect india will stay on the sideline and help from time to time? >> they've increased their russian oil shipments significant, significant escalation since just this year. last year they imported 16 billion barrels and just in the beginning of this year it has been 13 billion, just for the first quarter of this year.

so -- so they've been taking advantage of the lower cost because of what has been going on. i feel like that's pretty indicative of where they're going with this. president biden is trying to lure them to our side. it is an important, like you said, democracy. they are part of a group, a quad group for defense in the region, an area in the indo-pacific region where tensions are increasing, where people want to push back on chinese expansionist policies. this is an important country we need on our side. when we pursued iranian sanctions we had is same conversations with india. they needed to decrease and they did it eventually. i think it is something that congress could look at as a means of getting countries like india, for example, to get on board. >> all right. former spokesman to the u.s. mission to the united states

hagah shamali, thank you so much. foreman bahamian to ukrainian bill taylor, thanks for coming on. with philadelphia the first u.s. major city to bring back mask requirements amid a surge of coronavirus infections across the country, the state department is also taking steps to protect its consular staff in shanghai. >> china, what an absolute mess it is on covid over there. just out of control. >> nbc's janis mackey frayer brings us a look inside the locked down chinese city. plus, donald trump tells the, quote, real story about what happened on january 6th. >> which means he's doubling down on every single lie he has ever told. >> yeah. we will explain what we mean by that. we will be right back.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." jonathan lemire, mike barnicle and i slept here at 30 rock last night. >> again? >> again. not on the streets this time. they let us in the confines. >> oh, that's good. >> we were upstairs at the rainbow room last night because the great mike barnicle received a prestigious award, the pete hamill award in journalism at the ireland house for his political and social commentary. a beautiful night. your sons, your wife anne was there, the great maureen dowd was there. phil griffin was there. what a list of, you know, gene

mcquaid was with you, ruth nega, the great actress, also there and honored. it was a great night for ireland and a great night for mike barnicle. >> thank you. it was a humbling evening because i did not deserve that award. >> oh, you did. >> but i was willing to accept it because pete hamill was a hero not only to me but to many people in our business, jonathan. >> yes. he was on this show frequently. we all looked up to him so much. >> your dad knows this, everybody in american journalism knows this. just to receive recognition in the name of pete hamill, my hero, it was rewarding. >> ah. >> congratulations, mike. well deserved. >> amazing. congratulations. >> thank you. thank you, mika. thank you. >> it is fabulous, absolutely fabulous, mike. congratulations. coming up, we are going to talk to a presidential historian who brought together top scholars to analyze the presidency of donald trump. plus, the white house is

expecting a rough report on inflation later this morning. stephanie ruhle is going to be with us to break down the numbers as soon as they come out. we will be right back.

♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it is half past the hour. a live look at the white house. joining us now, acclaimed political historian, julian zelezor. he is the editor of the new book "the presidency of donald j. trump," a first historical assessment. explain the premise of the book, sir. i think a lot of authors may think they've done an historical assessment of donald trump's presidency. >> well, i bring together historians to take a first draft in many ways at the history. rather than rating a president,

are then a ten or a zero, i try to put it into long term perspective. how do we understand the former president with relation to immigration, impeachment, all of the big issues that shape the presidency. i have been doing this now, this is my third president. >> okay. so how should we understand the former president as it pertains to the rule of law and the constitution and undermining a presidential election? >> well, a lot of the authors in the book really look at how he strained many key elements of the democratic process. so we have a chapter on impeachment that raises the question after this presidency is over does impeachment really work, is it a mechanism that is able to withstand the partisanship of our political system. there's many examples of that where this presidency tested key elements of how our system is operating in this period. >> all right.

so, julian, you write about an interview you did with former president trump in an article in "the atlantic" called, "what i learned when trump tried to correct the record." you recount an incredible moment where he explains his version of the capitol insurrection. when the yale historian beverly gaige brought up the president's relationship with the fbi and the intelligence community, the subject of her chapter in our book, he eventually turned to the capitol riot of january 6th, 2021. according to his memory, the expert opinion was off. the real story, trump argued, has yet to be written. when congress met to certify the electoral college results, trump told us, there had been a peaceful rally, more than a million people who were full of tremendous love and believed the election was rigged and robbed and stolen. he made a very modest and very peaceful speech, a presidential speech. the throng at the capitol was a

massive and tremendous group of people. the day was all marred by a small group of left-wing antifa and black lives matter activists who infiltrated them and who were not stopped because of poor decisions by the u.s. capitol police when some bad things happened. these are words that he uses a lot, julian. he often does this, tries to completely change the narrative. i believe the january 6th select committee is going to be coming out with a point-by-point version of what went down, but what do you make of his complete contortion of the facts? >> well, look, he approached us. this was in july 2021. he had read an article about the book and he asked if he could meet with us through his staff, and so we did via zoom. this was one part of the conversation where we're listening to how he perceived

january 6th. and if you hear his words, it sounds like antifa and black lives matter activists are responsible for this and speaker pelosi was the person who really failed the country. this is what he does. he spins his version of events. he does it with force and in his mind with clarity, but they're at odds with what we all saw in front of our eyes. that's what the work of the committee is at this point, so that people really understand how those horrible hours unfolded. >> so, julian, this is not the first dance you have taken with former presidents in writing this sort of a review of their presidencies, and presidens obviously have enormous egos or else they wouldn't become president. i'm wondering in your conversation with president trump, even though it is on zoom and he's not there in person,

what's your judgment on his grasp of reality? >> well, it is hard to look into the mind of a former president, of former president trump. what i do know and what everyone in the zoom room could see was the way he interpreted and spun his history was at odds with what most people understood to be true. this ranged from his account of january 6th, which was totally at odds with what we all saw on television, to his telling us that he was very tough on russia and even listening to those remarks again in the context of where we are today is just a president who is willing to say what he wants to say and doesn't feel there are guardrails controlling his narrative of events. >> julian, you kind of excavate a little bit a point that most certainly is true and has been discussed at some length, which is that, you know, he didn't

cause -- donald trump -- the divisions that we see in our country right now. he exacerbated, he brought them to the surface. he made it okay to say things that had lane dormant, cruelness, bigotry, sort of under the veil of anti-political correctness. how did that play out over the course of his administration, just putting out into the open things that apparently a lot of people in the country were feeling and thinking and scared to say out loud until he came along. >> look, this is fundamentally the book, that the former president wasn't the product of what we saw. he was also a calls of changes in politics and he was willing to play to those elements of the electorate at many key points of his presidency in ways which we have seen other politicians do but they try to do it more subtly, they try to do it through code words. he was more comfortable playing to the extremists very openly,

and part of what we look is how the republican party has changed since the 1980s and reached a point we have seen from the tea party right through the trump presidency where this has all become a legitimate form of political discourse and this is now part of the conservative coalition. >> hey, julian. so you are writing the historical assessment of donald trump, and history may not be over yet. we know if he jumps he would be the republican favorite to be their nominee in 2024. i won't ask you to rank him, which historians are asked all the time in terms of presidents, but give us a sense -- you place him in history but also if he gave any clues as to what his next act might be when you spoke to him? >> again, this was july 2021. it didn't sound like someone who was finished with politics, and here in that conversation was someone very much eager to end the story on his own terms, meaning that's what he was doing with us. he wasn't letting us write the

book and come away with what we found, but rather almost wanted to explain to us how to understand him. for me, that's a politician who is not done. look, i came away from that, list rally i turned the computer and said, he's going to run again. i don't know if that's true. that is just my assessment of what i heard, and he was a disruptive president. he brought all of the most disruptive elements of our politics, from the way the media works to some of the political elements we have discussed, and brought them to the surface. we are reckoning not just with the former president but with the state of our democracy, and that's what we really need to understand. >> absolutely. to conclude, this is what you write in "the atlantic" about your takeaways from your meeting with former president trump. quote, during our hour together, trump didn't have many questions for us. even in his attempt to correct the record, trump mostly didn't acknowledge or engage with

informed outside criticisms of his presidency. he did, however, admit to having sometimes retweeted people he shouldn't have, and at one point he said, when i didn't win the election -- phrasing at odds with his false claim that the 2020 vote was stolen. but his goal was to sell a group of historians on his side of the story. i'm looking at the list, it's a tremendous group of people, and i think rather than being critical i'd like to have you hear me out, which is what we're doing right now and i appreciate it. you go on to say he seemed to want the approval of historians, without any understanding of how historians gather evidence or render judgments. the new book is "the presidency of donald j. trump, a first historical assessment." julian, thank you for sharing it with us this morning. we appreciate it. up next, we return to our

coverage of the war in eastern europe. nbc's molly hunter joins us live from kyiv with her new reporting on the suspected atrocities committed by russian forces in bucha and other ukrainian cities. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people are taking financial advice from memes.

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french president emmanuel macron is trying to win key support ahead of the final election round on april 24th against right-wing challenger marine le pen. macron spent time with voters in northern france where le pen has won the majority of support. his supporters say it will be a tight race due to the fact the majority of people who voted for the previously eliminated candidates lean more in favor of le pen. yesterday le pen relaunched her

campaign with a planned trip to northern burgundy to speak with farmers about inflation and high costs. macron has criticized his opponent with her extreme views on immigration and plans to fine muslims who wear head scarves in people. the two faced off in 2017 where macron won in a landslide. the outcome isn't as clear this time after this first round of voting with macron garnering 27% of votes and le pen trailing close behind at 24%. >> willie geist, the bookies have come in this morning and i don't know if you saw this or not, but our "morning joe" off-track betting site is putting the over/under despite the propaganda from lame stream media it will be a close race. our bookies, and you can count on our bookies, put it at macron, 58.5%.

that's the over/under for bettors. this is a sucker's bet. it won't be as close as they say it is. again, "morning joe's" off track betting, let me check it again. is this right, jay? is this right? 58.5%, that is what the line is, macron winning easily once again over le pen. where are you putting your franks willie? >> we should remind our viewers the same "morning joe" bookies picked buster douglass to beat mike tyson in tokyo. >> we did. >> 42 to 1 odds. jonathan lemire, you have written a piece about that, that the white house and others are concerned that vladimir putin, whatever he ends up doing in ukraine, that his brand of authoritarianism, she may not win, as joe points out macron is still the favorite, but there is a creep of authoritarianism

across eastern europe and into the west. >> yes, throughout europe. le pen, a noted putin sympathizer has the u.s. and close allies concerned. if she were to win it could be the end of the european union, sort of nato as we know it and could destabilize the continent, but even a narrow macron win could have a chilling effect, that others may look in the rearview mirror and whether they would be reluctant to keep going with this coalition to help out ukraine. >> yeah. >> certainly though there is a sense that we should look in 2017 macron trounced le pen. >> yes. >> there is an estimation this time will be closer. i don't know about the over/under there, but -- >> what don't you know about the over/under. >> i don't know. >> we picked buster douglass over mike tyson. "morning joe's" own tv is always right. we also picked sham over

secretariat in '73 at the belmont. we are not always right, but, you know, sham had it all the way until the gate opened. it was close. >> willie -- >> that was like this horse -- >> we only missed that one by 31 links, joe. >> it was very close. i got to tell you, going into the gate secretariat did not look cool. i was a little worried about it. 58, again, just for everybody, looked a little wobbly until he turned in the greatest performance of our lifetime. again, 58.5%, lemere. it doesn't sound close to me. >> no, sarkozy, the former president, came out in favor of macron yesterday. >> in jail? >> yeah, and there are also some other figures who were defeated who are on leftist candidates who said, look, i may not agree on macron on much of anything but you can't vote for le pen. there will be a coalition

coalescing on that side as well. mike barnicle says i'm taking a slight under, macron to win though. you are taking the over? >> i'm putting a lot of euros in macron, even with sarkozy's endorsement. he is suspect, the former president of france, where did he vacation? >> it is a nice shot in new england. >> it is a beautiful place, but for the president of france? >> yeah, i guess france versus lakes in new hampshire, but okay. >> you have hotel de cap and you go to lake winipegsake. >> exactly. >> the problem with my friends in new hampshire, i don't think there's a doubt where i would go. lake winipesake. >> let's move to pakistan, shall we? >> can i ask, mike, where are you going, over/under, 58.5% for macron.

where are your placing your franks. >> i have a ton of euros. >> we only accept franks and rubles. >> i will mix the frank with the rubles, i bet 55% winning handily. >> we bitcoin. >> good waste of time. pakistan lawmakers voted into office opposition leader shabazz sharif as the country's new prime minister as imran khan was ousted over the weekend in a no confidence vote over allegations of poor governance. a general election will be called no later than july of 2023. sharif is the brother of navas sharif removed by the supreme court in 2017. no pakistani prime minister has completed a five-year term since the foundation of the country in 1947. >> so which would of course be funny, sort of like the 800 italian government since the end of world war ii, except for the

fact, jonathan lemire, this is a nuclear power, it is obviously a country that spawns terrorist organizations, but also it's a country that the united states is repeatedly let down over the past 30, 40 years, also a country that bilked us of billions of dollars after 9/11. i mean, it is -- talk about a problematic situation. what is the biden administration's take on this latest unrest in pakistan? >> the saying is certainly that pakistan is always a military and a country that is the clicée in foreign policy circles. there is some hope that the new leader, sharif, might be a little friendlier to the united states than his predecessor, khan, who very much was not. you know, we've discussed earlier in the show about the frustrations the u.s. has with modi in india right now. there's certainly -- they're different, but equally frustrated with some of what

pakistan has done as well. what i was told yesterday is very cautiously optimistic, but some early thought that maybe things could be a little warmer between the two countries in the weeks ahead after this change. >> all right. in a completely unrelated story time for a quick round up of the american league east. the toronto blue jays on their march to a world series title beat the yankees 3-0 last night. fifth straight win at yankee stadium dating back to last season. the red sox lost 3-1 to the detroit tigers. baltimore orioles got their first win of the season beating the brewers at camden yards and down in st. pete at the trop the rays lost for the first time this season but the outfielder brett phillips who switched the final two innings of a 13-2 loss look at that play, provided that moment, that's an outfielder making an outfielder play off the mound. sliding feet first on a 31 mile an hour breaking ball to make an

incredible catch in front of the dugout. here are the doomsday als east standings. jays and the rays as predicted on this show running away with the division. >> of course. >> the 0's and the sox down in the cellar. >> by the way, one more prediction that "morning joe" otb is right. by the way, i have to say, lemire, the red sox only have one win so far, but, man, what a win that was. we ought to recount that one like for the next two hours because we've got two hours and seven minutes left. >> we've got nothing. okay? >> we will hang our hats on that victory. it's the only one we may have for a while. yeah, the bats in detroit ice cold. ryan brasier sowed the same pitch to bez three times. the third time he didn't miss it. the yankees bats have gone quiet facing the blue jays who i think are the best team in the league. >> watching the jays last night,

that is a good baseball team, they pitch, they hit, they run. they are good top to bottom. >> the kid who pitched for them last night, watch him. >> he was unstoppable last night. >> is he on your fantasy team, mike? >> he is. >> i thought so. >> blue jays and dodgers in the world series. if you don't want to watch baseball and wait until october, in october, blue jays and dodgers. still ahead, nbc's stephanie ruhle joins us to break down the data from the labor department as the white house braces for, quote, extraordinary elevated inflation numbers due out this morning. >> is that bad? >> that's bad. >> extraordinarily elevated is this a term of art? >> it's bad. plus, she says she watches russian state tv so you don't have to. >> thank god. >> julia davis has new reporting on russia's plans to interfere in american elections. plus, bill broader joins us at the top of the hour, his new book tells a true story of surviving putin's wrath. survivi.

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it is one minute before the top of the hour, a live look of a beautiful shot of washington, d.c. this morning. welcome back to "morning joe," it's tuesday, april 12th. we have a lot to get to in the next two hours so let's dive right in. we begin with new reporting from "the new york times" that reveals a campaign of terror by russian forces against the people of bucha. the details are horrific and graphic. survivors and investigators tell the "times" as the russian attack on kyiv stalled soldiers started taking revenge on civilians in bucha. a sniper in a high-rise fired at

anybody who moved. other soldiers tortured, raped and executed civilians in basements or backyards. reporters and photographers with the "times" spent more than a week interviewing city officials and witnesses. the "times" says the evidence suggests the russians killed recklessly and sometimes sadistically and out of revenge. civilians were killed carrying the simplest of daily activities, a retired teacher was shot midmorning on march 5th as she opened her front door on a side street, her body lay twisted half inside the door more than a month later. there are multiple reports of women being held captive, raped and killed. joining us now from kyiv nbc news correspondent molly hunter. molly, you've been reporting from some of those devastated communities around the capital. tell us what you know.

>> reporter: mika, that's right. we've spent a lot of time in bucha, the way of "new york times" maps out the terror around the civilian homes and civilian streets is horrifying, devastating. we met a survivor, we met a 28-year-old and she told us she was raped by a russian soldier, she says she was held captive for 48 hours by russian soldiers. take a look at her story. >> reporter: this morning russia is shifting its strategy with likely deadly consequences. warning fighting will intensify as russia continues to refocus. the pentagon are closely monitoring reports of possible chemical weapon use in mariupol saying we cannot confirm these reports. >> russian leaders have shown in the past the brutality with which they conduct and prosecute their operations. >> reporter: the uk says they are urgently work to go verify

these unconfirmed claims first met by a nationalist fighting in mariupol. overnight president zelenskyy saying that russia is preparing for a new stage of terror. and this comes as the fighting intensifies already in the east. the city of kharkiv under constant attack in the last 24 hours, firefighters still searching for survivors. and here around the capital of kyiv, mounting evidence of war crimes, u.n. women warning they're hearing more and more reports of sexual violence. in a firsthand account 28-year-old alena tells us she was raped by a russian soldier dressed in civilian clothes who had offered her medical care. r e >> reporter: she and her husband fled the area after the attack, they walked in the middle of the night to a new neighborhood which is where we meet them.

>> are you angry? have you even had time to process? ven had time to process? >> reporter: now, mika, this is a 28-year-old woman who for several days after she got a shrapnel wound on her breast she went to russian soldiers for medical aid, they gave her medical aid multiple days in a row then the same soldier who offered to give her medical aid, grabbed her, put her in a car, took her to another apartment building and raped her. friends of friends, someone heard a neighbor and now we have a firsthand account of exactly what happened. rape is a war crime. the u.n. says they are sending investigators to follow up on cases and the ukraine prosecutor, general prosecutor, excuse me, has opened at least one case of rape and accusation against a russian soldier. mika. >> nbc's molly hunter, thank you very much. >> mika, you read, obviously, the "times" story yesterday and -- and others, but you were

struck. i mean, deeply -- deeply struck and upset by just the horrific stories of how women were being treated. so many examples coming forward from the war zone. >> well, the russian strategy has turned to, you know, the desperate turn to sadism, depravity, impunity and children are witnessing the most unbelievable horrors, women are being kidnapped and held. >> you talked about women being -- women being held in a basement. >> yeah. >> and being abused repeatedly sexually. >> i think this is just the beginning of what we're going to hear what's been happening in these town sites outside kyiv and, again, it speaks to the need for weapons and for the ukrainians to be able to fight with overwhelming force and end

this because they are sitting ducks. they're sitting ducks. willie? >> our next guest has become a major target of the kremlin for his outspoken criticism of vladimir putin. hedge found founder and author bill browder once was a major investor in russia, but he was expelled from the country for fighting corporate corruption. in 2009 his lawyer sergei magnitsky who was investigating government money laundering who was arrested and later killed in a moscow prison nearly a year later. congress passed the mag knitsy act which levied sanctions on the russians involved in his death. bill has worked to pass similar laws around the world. he is out with the new book "freezing order: a true story of money laundering, disorder and surviving vladimir putin's wrath." i want to talk specifically about the book, but first your impressions of what we're seeing right now. take into account that report we got from molly hunter in lviv, the atrocities committed in

mariupol and bucha which may be the beginning once the media can get in and look at what's going on here. i take it you are not surprised at all by the tactics employed here by vladimir putin. >> well, the most important thing to know is that the russian soldiers don't do anything unless they're given either permission or orders to do it. there's a very vertical chain of command and if these soldiers were doing that, they were not just doing it on their own volition, they were doing it under order. and this is a war crime and this is an intentional war crime and this is vladimir putin basically telling his military staff to brutalize ukrainian civilians, to make a point, which is they want to just show everybody how terrible they are. >> you've been criticizing vladimir putin for many, many, many years and his tactics and now you've written an entirely new book about it. he's expelling people from the country, he is arresting dissidents, shutting down

independent media, now we see he's purging his own fsb of people deemed unloyal to him. how difficult is it to be a dissident in that country? how difficult has it been for you even outside the country to continue relentlessly despite the threats you have had on your life and everything else to pursue vladimir putin the way you have? >> these people go after anybody and everybody who have anything critical to say about them. in my case i was complaining about corruption, i was complaining about money laundering. they've issued death threats, kidnapping threats, they've tried having me arrested through interpol eight times, they've chased me all around the world and i'm a westerner sitting in the west. >> right. >> i mean, if you are in russia and you're doing this, i have a good friend who is an opposition politician who has been critical of the russian regime, putin regime, and he was arrested yesterday in moscow. >> so freezing order is the title of the book, a true story

of money laundering, murder and surviving the wrath of putin. this gets at where putin's money comes from, this gets at all the oligarchs where their money comes from, how they take it from the state. what did you find in research this book? >> well, we all know that there is a lot of crookedness, we all know that vladimir putin is a crook, but one of the things that comes out of my book is that all of this exporting of corruption that they are doing, basically sending it from russia to the west, there was somebody who had to import the corruption. there is a whole class of what i call western enablers, people in the united states, people in great britain, our colleagues, people we might even bump into at cocktail parties who are working for the russians, who are effectively working as arms of the criminal russian regime here in the west. that's something that you don't expect. >> an excerpt from the book, bill writes, quote, when we started investigating the $230 million tax rebate fraud that my lawyer sergei magnitsky was

killed over we had no idea it would lead to any of these world-shaping developments or these unthinkable russian reactions. why hadn't putin thrown low level officials under the bus for murdering sergei. why would he hack western elections? now we knew. there weren't just millions of dollars at stakes or even billions, there was likely more than $1 trillion at stake and putin will do anything to protect this. this amount of money also helped to explain why so many people had been murdered. as you followed me through this story you might have wondered why does he do all of these things? at first i did them because i owed it to sur guy, he had been killed because he worked for me and i couldn't let his killers get away with t then as things escalated it also became a fight for survival, not only for myself and my family, but for my friends and colleagues and all of the people who were helping sergei's cause inside of russia. we sort of take as gospel that, you know, these oligarchs and

vladimir putin are among the wealthiest men in the world and that vladimir putin may be the wealthiest man in the world. i haven't heard a great explanation of how he pulls it off exactly. you kind of get at that in this book. how does he extract all that money? how does he hide all that money? how does it work for him? >> well, my story is all about one crime. >> right. >> but you multiply that one crime by a thousand and that's where you get to these enormous numbers. basically in america if you go into government service you're there to serve the people of your country. in russia if you go into government service you are there to steal as much money from your division, your department, whatever. so it's kind of like the sopranos, if you are the minister of finance or the minister of energy it's like being the new jersey mafia or the philadelphia mafia, you take your cut and pass it up to the mafia boss. so when people pay their taxes the taxes go into the government and then it gets stolen from the government. they build a pipeline of 80% of the money built a pipeline goes into the pockets of government

officials. here is the great one, when they spend money on military, that money gets stolen. when you want to know why they're doing so badly in ukraine, because 80% of the money is stolen from the military. they're selling the gasoline out of the tanks so they sputter out and can't even go. >> you know, you just mentioned a couple of minutes ago that we would bump into people at cocktail parties here in the west, in new york city, or wherever, in chicago, and that they were in their own way working for russia. >> yeah. >> what are the mechanics of this? how are they working for russia? is it involved with money, obviously must be. what are the mechanics of this? and the second question to you in terms of what you have just been telling us both here today and prior to many appearances is your life in danger right now from the russians? >> let me answer the second question first. the answer is yes. they've been after me for 12 years since the murder of sergei magnitsky and the only season i'm still here today is because

putin always kept one foot in the civilized world and one foot in the criminal world and so killing me would have basically had put both feet in the criminal world and he always wanted to have all these like heads of state treating him like a legitimate person. he wanted to go to the g20 summit, he wanted to attend the olympics and he couldn't do that if he killed me. now he's put both feet in the criminal world and everything is open. now, the mechanics of how these westerners do this stuff is that oligarchs working for putin employ lawyers, pr firms, investigation agencies, bankers, et cetera, to do the russian government's bidding and in my book i go into great detail and people when they read my book are shocked to find that these supposedly upstanding american citizens are basically working as arms of russian intelligence in the united states for money. >> so donald trump as we know

often had kind words for vladimir putin, in their helsinki summit putin asked trump to hand you over to russian authorities and trump seriously considered it. tell us how the story -- tell us that story and why he was prevented from doing so. >> well, so putin has been hating me ever since the magnitsky act was passed, he's been trying to get my handed over, he has been not successful. they were at this summit, it was right after robert mueller had indicted 12 russian military intelligence officers for hacking the last election. one of the journalists at the press conference said to putin are you going to hand over these 12 russian military intelligence officers and spiesingly putin said, yeah, i will do so if donald trump hands over bill browder. when i saw that i was just in shock. and i thought immediately that trump would say, no, that's ridiculous, but trump said, i think it's an incredible offer. and it took four days to walk that back. it was only when the senate was about to vote and they ended up

voting 98-0 not to do that that trump walked it back, four days. >> who got to him, about i will? who got in the president's ear and said, whoa, we're not doing this? >> i think they looked and said this is going to look ridiculous if the senate voted unanimous not to hand over bill browder and there were 11 other people, americans on this list, he didn't want to look that ridiculous. and it was in the middle of the mueller investigation. this was an investigation about collusion with russia and trump was going to hand over the biggest janet putin guy, it would have looked pretty terrible. i will say one thing, though, which is if trump was reelected i wouldn't have felt safe coming into america. >> before we let you go, i'm just curious how you think this ends. you understand vladimir putin very well, you've just described a man with two feet now in the criminal world, there is no pretense anymore that he wants to be accepted in the world community, how could he come back from all these scenes we've witnessed here, right? he can't. so what does that mean exactly? where did you see this go?

>> everybody always asks me what's the end game? the end game is for vladimir putin through whatever means he can to stay in power. he cannot -- he cannot not be at this war. so he's -- there's only escalation, there is only -- there's no compromise, there is no peace treaties, he might do peace treaties as a tactic but he's not going to do it in any real way. so the most likely end game is that this thing doesn't end, this thing carries on and on and on and those terrible images and those terrible stories are repeated over and over and over again. >> we so appreciate you being here. it's taken great courage to continue to speak out the way you have for a dozen years and we appreciate you being here. the new book "freezing order: a true story of money laundering, murder and surviving vladimir putin's wrath." it is out today. bill browder, thanks for being here. >> mika? >>. as russia faces heavy losses on the battlefield and in the financial markets the kremlin's enablers on state tv are

increasingly saying the quiet part out loud. a new report in the "daily beast" examines how russia is airing its ultimate revenge plan for america. battered and infuriated by sanctions over the war in ukraine putin's hinchmen are plotting pay back. julia davis joins us, she monitoring and analyzes russian state tv. julia, what's the focus of this new propaganda? >> the focus of this new propaganda is, again, to sow discourse in our politics and certainly trump is helping that to happen, and they want trump world to know that they are on their side. again, there is also tucker carlson that is promoting the same agenda. they are essentially trying to tap in not only into trump and his potential presidential run,

but his entire base and the entire audience of fox news that is following tucker carlson. so they have a very large agenda. putin sees lack of unity as the biggest weakness and this is what he's trying to impose upon our country is to divide us to the maximum extent. in my report i'm quoting them and it sounds like they are speaking and reading directly out of the mueller report when they are talking about exploiting any divisions and widening any cracks in our society. >> so, julia, let's talk about that reporting of the war. you know, even opening stajts of the war you had people on russian tv talking about using nuclear weapons against ukraine and possibly against -- possibly against nato countries. it seems every night the language becomes more

hyperbolic. where do they get their marching orders from to be -- to be basically not just threatening world war iii, but at times seemingly cheering it on? >> well, nothing happens on kremlin-controlled state tv without putin's approval whether it's openly or at that sitly done so when the propaganda disses are talking about escalating to a potentially nuclear war, all they are doing is warning the west to stay away. thought this was a good deterrent for us not to get any more involved than we already are. every time they are threatened by additional prospects of increased military help to ukraine they raise the possibility of a nuclear strike, simply to deter the west from doing more. >> so, julia, good morning, it's

josh than lemire. we heard from vladimir putin talking about the necessity of this war, saying russia didn't have a choice, that it was forced to go into ukraine and that's of course similar to the lines you're hearing from russian state media. we have seen a real sharp uptick in his approval rating, somewhat legitimate polls at least that have him north of 70%, 80% or so. your sense of it, though, as someone who knows the country so well, how long is that sustainable? if this war does go on for months and months or a year or more on the eastern front on the donbas, will the russian people continue to be gripped with this patriotic spirit or will they eventually grow dissatisfied with what's happened and the economic toll the sanctions are taking on their lives? >> jonathan, initially they have portrayed this conquest of ukraine as something that could be very easily accomplished, in fact, they have described it as potentially taking no more than 11 minutes jokingly, but they expect it had to take maybe five

days at the most. now they are assuming a completely different posture and they're actually predicting that it might take as much as 30, 40 years to fully subdue ukraine because of the sentiments that are clearly not welcoming putin as they had predicted that it would happen. so the state media is trying to consolidate the population and support this war. they are actually dragging out some writings of writers from the beginning of the centuries claiming that ukraine has to be part of russia whether it wants to or not. that this is simply a reality that everyone needs to accept and russians if they're patriots will accept it and go along with it for as long as it takes and whatever it takes. at the same time they are already starting to raids the point that the main objective was the so-called liberation of

donbas which, of course, will eventually end in the annexation of eastern ukraine if they were successful. so that is still a possibility. if russia sustains massive losses there, if ukraine holds them back, it might end in that region, but if they manage to succeed, they might continue moving forward. >> all right. thank you so much, julia davis. greatly appreciate it. mika, what's so interesting is we're talking, again, about approval ratings, we're talking about higher approval ratings. you just don't really know because, again, it's a totalitarian state, people fear for their lives, people fear speaking out. but it is very interesting when we start talking about russian tv. it is very interesting that, again, you have older -- older russians who depend much more on television. >> right. >> than do younger russians and

those older russians actually grew up in the soviet union, they grew up with ukraine being part of the soviet union, being part of greater russia like vladimir putin some of these older russians of course grew up with a history, understanding the history of kyiv and odesa being -- being capitals of czarist russia as well. so we look at this and if we're trying to understand what's going on on russian television, trying to understand what some of the older russians may actually be supportive of vladimir putin, obviously so much of it has to do with their own life experiences. >> that's right. >> and of course the world they knew and that they were indoctrinated into being shattered from 1989 to 1991. >> there's also thousands of russians who are leaving and who are leaving for a reason. >> right. >> and those are people with access to information that comes from outside russia and access

to a reality that they can embrace, unlike those who have been in russia for much longer and perhaps don't have -- don't have the ability to see things beyond the borders. still ahead on "morning joe," clint watts is going to join us at the top of the hour. 9:00 a.m. eastern he's going to be at the big board with the latest on the troop movements. also ahead this hour, inflation has already hit a 40-year high and it's expected to get worse. we're going to have the new numbers when they cross from the labor department. plus, nbc's blayne alexander joins us live from georgia with a look at one of the nation's most closely watched races for governor. but with less than two months until the primary, the state's most populous county still has no permanent official in place to lead the elections. blayne will explain why. and some exciting news before we go to break, you can now stream "morning joe" and other msnbc shows on peacock,

you can find us on the new msnbc hub. head over to peacocktv.com to learn more. >> it is exciting. >> you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. right ba. [music: “you can get it if you really want” by jimmy cliff]

joe." health officials in philadelphia announced plans to reinstate the city's indoor mask mandate beginning next monday. as nbc's emily a ked da reports it makes philadelphia the first major american city to bring back mask requirements. >> reporter: this morning philadelphia is asking residents to mask up again indoors.

beginning next week masks will be required in all public places, including schools and day cares. according to city officials, cases have surged more than 50% in the past ten days, averaging 142 infections a day. still, fewer than 50 people are currently hospitalized with the virus. philly, the first major city to return to that pandemic precaution, going beyond what the cdc even recommends in communities with low transmission, which the city currently falls under. >> you see like you go inside restaurants anyway and bars and stuff, people aren't bearing it when the mandate was there so i'm not sure the mandate helps anything anymore. >> reporter: the pennsylvania restaurant and lodging association calling it a major blow to thousands of small businesses. with infections ticking up in nearly half the country the white house's new covid czar telling savannah the federal mask mandate on planes, trains and other public transit could also be extended again. >> it's on the table? >> yeah, look, this is a cdc

decision and i think it is absolutely on the table. >> reporter: the current mandate set to expire monday has faced push back from airlines who last month asked the biden administration to end it. the highly contagious subvariant ba.2 omicron now accounting for 72% of new cases. but nationwide new infections remain relatively low at about 29,000. with hospitalizations and deaths still declining public health experts say perspective is key. >> i don't think this is a moment where we have to be excessively concerned. >> nbc's emily a quetta reports. >> coming up next more on the pandemic as china locks down one of its largest cities amid a surge of infections. a new look at extreme measures on the streets of shanghai. "morning joe" is back in a moment. of it moment of i . it . . it

welcome back. it's not just the u.s. seeing a summer in covid, the u.s. state department has ordered some consular staff to leave shanghai, which is under a tight lockdown to contain a wave of infections. nbc's janis mackey frayer reports from china. >> reporter: china's biggest city shanghai remains eerily empty, 26 million people under a massive covid lockdown, relying on government deliveries and anger is soaring. social media showing videos of protests over food and medicine, a supermarket ransacked. and a building where residents have been locked down for two weeks they shout we only want supplies, why are you beating people? at night the echos of people crying out from their windows for help. with the omicron variant surging here china is tightening its strict zero covid rules to contain what is now the

country's worst outbreak ever. tens of thousands of asymptomatic people being corralled into mass quarantine centers. in some cases children have been separated from their parents, triggering public outcry. american josh vaughn got swept up in the drag net, he's trying to keep his business going from a hospital. >> this is the hardest thing i have ever done in my life. >> reporter: two years into the pandemic there is no easing up on zero covid here. robots patrol some streets, reminding people to wear masks. here in beijing even when there is one case an entire neighborhood is locked off, deliveries are passed through a window. in shanghai drones tell people to stay home. control your soul's desire for freedom, it says, as more cities double down with restrictions. >> that was nbc's janis mackey frayer reporting. coming up, airlines are blaming a one-two punch of bad

weather and a surge in travelers for some major problems at airports nationwide, but the problem might run deeper than that. we will break down that story next on "morning joe." oe."

welcome back. the busy travel season is just around the corner and airlines are struggling to keep up. as nbc news correspondent kerry sanders reports, there are several reasons why. >> reporter: the busy summer travel season is kicking off, but your flights might not be taking off. jetblue can you get up to 10% of its flights through the summer, that's about 150 flights per day, following a tumultuous few weeks. in a memo obtained by cnbc the

airline blaming staffing shortages. the unprecedented cuts come as the aviation industry scrambles to hire pilots and flight attendants after numbers were significantly reduced during the pandemic. over the next eight years u.s. airlines need to hire more than 14,000 pilots to keep pace with retirements and growing flight demands. also needed, flight attendants with jetblue even offering $1,000 bonus for them to show up for work. lynn montgomery is with the union that represents flight attendants for jetblue and southwest. >> so the problem is technological update failures and also huge staffing issues, weather events where the communication breaks down and flight attendants being left alongside customers in these -- and being stranded. >> reporter: jetblue's president and coo acknowledging those frustrations, apologizing to staff, writing, we are letting

you and our customers down and that is not consistent with what we stand for. alaska airlines recently said it would trim about 2% of its scheduled flights through the end of june, blaming too few pilots. >> for many airlines their eyes were bigger than their stomach, they ended up scheduling more flights than they were actually able to operate. >> reporter: airlines are required by law to give passengers a full refund when flights are canceled, but as travelers know all too well that won't cover losses for things like hotels, rental cars and prepaid excursions. >> unfortunately there is no law or regulation requiring the airline to make you whole for other expenses associated with the trip. >> that was nbc news correspondent kerry sanders reporting. coming up, brand-new numbers on the economy. there is a new measure this morning of inflation. and nbc's stephanie ruhle joins us to break it all down.

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48 past the hour. a look at reagan national airport as we get to some breaking news now on the economy. there is a new measure of just how much inflation is soaring and the numbers are staggering. the consumer price index jumped 8.5% in march from 12 months earlier. that is the biggest year over year growth in 40 years. you have to go back to 1981 to see a similar jump in the costs of food, gasoline and housing. as the ap frames it, the economic squeeze is effectively wiping out the pay raises that many people have received, and

that's probably just the beginning. joining us now nbc news senior business analyst and host of "the 11th hour" so we thank you for coming in so early, stephanie ruhle. steph, break it down for us. >> it ain't good. when you look at these numbers year over year, you said t we have not been in this place in 40 years and the biggest increases, it's gas, it's rent, food, all the things you need to buy every day. the people who are the most economically vulnerable will be hit the hardest. you mentioned it, we've talked about the good news about wages being up so much over the past year, when you account for inflation, hourly wages are actually down almost 3%. so we talk a lot about all the savings americans have built up over the last two years, over $2 trillion, that's mostly middle middle class americans, wealthier americans. for those at the bottom of the economic scale, huge blow. >> and, steph, i'm looking through some of these numbers. almost 9% inflation on food. i mean, for everything else

that's going on, for all the support that president biden has given to ukraine, for as low as the unemployment rate s when you go to the grocery store and you can't believe your eyes at the scan, when you go to the gas station and it's going up into triple digits, that's what matters to going up triple digits, that's what matters to people. >> this is critical politically. in france, inflation is worse there. those same people are saying but i don't like it and i'm voting against you even though people want to help with ukraine. the fed is meeting in may. they'll likely raise rates again. even though that could be a part-term solution, people don't like that either. >> you mentioned interest rates. what other tools are there to bring this down? is there any relief in sight? >> we had been hearing pre-ukraine, maybe this will be short term, we'll work our way out of it. it's getting worse. inflation was a problem, then the war hits. that makes things worse.

the surge in prices of commodities like oil, gas, cheat. and think about china, because of the covid surge you're seeing huge lockdowns again. what does that do? hits the supply chain, which was already struggling. we're dealing with a multipronged problem. >> realistically, the two gs are the killers in this for the average family, gas and groceries. those are dailies, sustenance. what, if anything, in the immediate aspect of this, in the next two, three months, can a combination of the fed and the executive powers of the presidency do to tamper inflation? >> there's not really a clear solution. people immediately say get rid of the gas tax. who does that help? it helps the oil and gas companies. it's not a lever that fixes it. it's complicated. >> did the fed underestimate inflation? >> surely. i spoke to janet yellen months

ago and she was saying it's temporary, we'll get through this when we're through covid. we're not through covid and we have more complications. they underestimated this. >> can you prognosticate about housing prices, where they are, where they're going? >> they're still really high and rent is really high. what you're hearing in cities across the country, and many people are saying this has to cool off soon, but ply remains an issue. new housing, building new houses slowed down covid for a multitude of reasons. it's not like they can create new stock overnight. it will take time. many are saying will housing cool? it should with interest rates but hasn't yet. >> stephanie ruhle, thank you. we'll see you in about 14 hours tonight on "the 11th hour." we appreciate you coming in and explaining this. thank you. ahead in our 9:00 a.m. hour, we'll speak with member of the white house council of economic advisers jared bernstein about these numbers and get more

analysis from cnbc's andrew ross sorkin. now to a big political story in georgia. less than two months away from primary day in the state's gubernatorial race, georgia's most populous county, fulton, does not have a permanent elections director. joining us, nbc news correspondent blayne alexander. why is this the case? and what are the potential consequences of not having this position filled? >> reporter: mika, so many people know the name fulton county. even if you're not intimately familiar with georgia, you know this area. it's a heavily democratic area and where atlanta is located, but it became a target of former president trump when he made his repeated false claims that the election was stolen. we're seeing the fallout. i spoke to the former elections director who resigned and he said in the months after the

2020 election, he, his family, the poll workers were receiving a number of threats and phone calls to the point it made it difficult to do their job, they experienced high turnover. they're having difficulty filling the position. one person almost immediately withdrew their name after being announced. they'll start this search from scratch. here's what i heard from rick, who filled the position, he said he is not surprised. take a look. >> the craziness. the harassments, the death threats, just open records requests just constant influx of those types of things. discovery requests in lawsuits. it never stopped. it was as though we were still

back in 2020 in midsummer of 2021. regularly we would get calls about motorcycle gangs coming to kill everyone in the office, asking us if they've arrived, saying they'll be there within the hour. the "n" word was thrown around with impunity. there were people that had absolutely -- trump gave them a license to just say whatever racist, ugly racist thoughts they had. >> reporter: these were calls coming into the actual election offices. >> coming in through our phone call center. some would get them on their voice mail. >> reporter: are potential candidates fearful for their safety? >> absolutely and there's reason to be. look at the history based on what happened in 2020, threats to mr. baron himself, his family, threats to workers, and threats to me. so there's a pattern, a record of it, so it's not -- >> reporter: i'm curious with

all that you mentioned that he faced, the next person could possibly face something similar. >> absolutely. because things are going to intensify. the closer we get to may 24th and the closer we get to november. >> reporter: also worth pointing out that's not the end. georgia is under a heavy political spotlight. when you talk about the governor's race, the senator's race here, they're anticipating the fact it is going to again be a target when you look ahead to the 2022 midterms. one other thing they pointed out with hesitation is there's also the looming threat of a state takeover. this is something that was made possible by georgia's controversial voting law, elections law that the state can essentially come in and take over what they deem to be underperforming county elections boards. and fulton county is already under investigation from that state panel. so both of them said they believe that somebody wouldn't want to necessarily come in and already be facing that

possibility on day one. guys? >> all right. nbc news correspondent blayne alexander, thank you for that report. jonathan lemire, of course in 2000 it was georgia, georgia, georgia, in 2020 we thought it was going to be all about wisconsin? did i say georgia, georgia. i meant florida, florida, florida. in 2020 we thought it would be all about wisconsin. it now seems, though, with florida becoming really more safe territory for republicans, it really does look like georgia is the battleground. it's why the democrats were able to make a historic selection for the supreme court justice, because they won those two senate seats there. donald trump lost georgia. stacy abrams, incredible organization of black voters in 2020, changed everything. here we are in 2022 and once

again donald trump sowing chaos in georgia, and once again we may find ourselves in a place where control of the senate comes down to the peach state. >> political strategists in both parties circle georgia as the most important state on the map. this year, it's a highly watched gubernatorial race there, as well as senator warknock having to defend his seat and in 2024, it will be a fiercely contested battleground. they're arriving into the battleground status ahead of schedule. virginia in 2008, north carolina got there a few years later, although trump won it twice, and now georgia will be the state. this also points to the ramifications of the big lie, that it's not something that just culminated on january 6th. far from it. it has shaped the politics ever since. part of that is election officials who fear for their safety, who have received threats. in my book out this summer, i

talk about officials in arizona and georgia and other places who felt like their lives were in jeopardy because of pressure put on by trump's lie, also efforts by trump and republicans to install friendly voices in key positions, election workers, secretaries of state, in these battlegrounds, trying to lay the groundwork for even rigging their elections, using their phrase, for 2022 and 2024. >> yet in georgia, this georgia primary, right now it looks like brian kemp, number one to donald trump not so long ago, so much so he said he would support stacy abrams. looks like he's moving towards victory. mike barnicle, georgia is one of these states that republicans think they have a god-given right to win. and we have seen how certain republicans have acted when they feel like they're entitled to states or they're entitled to the white house. we saw it with don jr., ginni

thomas, other people inside the administration. the idea was if we can't win this legally, with the votes, we're just going to steal it and jesus is on our side if you listen to mark meadows or read his texts. in georgia, i mean, there is this increased intensity because they think, people like trump think they have a god-given right to win that state so deep in the south. not the case anymore, and there's making thissing uplier. >> i think it will get even uglier, joe. georgia is not alone in this. pennsylvania will be another state like georgia with the flipside of it, with the democrats thinking we have a lock on pennsylvania, it's our state, a working-class state. no more. pennsylvania will be huge. whoever would have thought that on the ballot for primaries and the general election that one of the most sought-after offices state by state by state e is