sunday when the pope talks. i'm not sure i'll try to make a closer parallel. we'll just leave it at that. >> that's good company. >> very good. have a good one, happy easter. >> happy easter. a very good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. welcome, everyone, to "alex witt reports." if you're celebrating easter, i hope you enjoy your day. we begin with the breaking news on this day, day 53 of the war in ukraine. a desperate turn of events in mariupol, russians claim only 400 ukrainian fighters remain in the beleaguered city. they're holed up inside a steel plant, refusing to surrender. >> if russians wouldn't like to have negotiations so we will fight 'til the end, absolutely. we will not surrender. we will not leave our country, our families, our lands.

>> such courage there. meantime, russia is negotiating but also refusing to allow evacuations today. one ukrainian official pleaded for a humanitarian corridor to allow women, children, and wounded fighters to get out. not so far away where preparations are under way for a russian onslaught in the eastern donbas region in coming days. officials are urging civilians to evacuate now to avoid forced deportation to russia. some arrived in romania today. >> it's hard to live there because sometimes they send people to russia and they didn't ask what they want or what they don't want. sometimes if you go somewhere, some people disappear. so we decided to try to cross the front line and leave kherson. >> new video released today by the russian military shows a tank here with the letter "z" and the words "for donbas" painted on. nbc news cannot verify when or

where the video was made. but even as air raid sirens and air strikes hit several cities where russia withdrew ground forces, new hope at this hour for a diplomatic end to the war from the chancellor of austria after he visited president zelenskyy in kyiv and president putin in moscow. >> i talked with president zelenskyy about the trip to moscow. and both sides, president zelenskyy and president putin, mentioned the istanbul peace talks. and maybe we have a little chance there for peace. >> we're covering all angles. we start with nbc's matt bradley who is joining us from kyiv, ukraine. so matt, let's get to the situation in mariupol right now. how dire is it? >> reporter: i mean, it is about as dire as it's ever been. we're talking about a city that's been under siege, alex, for the past several months, without food, without clean

water, without electricity, without heat. this is a population that for the most part is actually relatively elderly compared to the rest of ukraine and they are suffering terribly. now, it's only a little more than a quarter of the 450,000 original residents still left in the city. amazing that so many people were able to get out because the humanitarian corridors have been so hard to negotiate. the russians have been shelling the corridors time and time again, causing casualties and blocking people from leaving and blocking humanitarian aid from getting into the city. as you mentioned, there are troops still in that steel works plant, they're making a valiant last stand. to hear president zelenskyy talk about it sounds as though it is the waning days of what we're seeing in mariupol but a lot of people in this country, and if you look at the history, the brief history of this siege, i would say don't count out mariupol yet.

it's tempting to say this will all come to an end soon, that this city will finally fall to russia and give russia its much-coveted land bridge between the east and crimea which it annexed in 2014. but this city has made such a strong stand against all odds that it's hard to say if it's actually going to succumb within the next hour or days even though it really is looking like that. we heard from the prime minister of the country. he just was talking -- he has been going around like president zelenskyy, trying to get countries to donate more money, more goods. they have only been somewhat successful especially when it comes to mariupol because it's hard to get any goods into that city. here is what he had to say. >> we need more sanctions from our west partners. we need more ammunition to

protect our country and european borders. we need more finances to support our people, our refugees, our internally displaced persons, to save our economy for future recovery, i hope in nearest time. >> reporter: and i butchered that name, eight it's the prime minister, he just released that statement. there is a lot of death in that city. we heard from president zelenskyy that as many as 21,000 civilians have been killed in that city since the siege began. that number is likely to go up before this story ends, alex. >> you know, i was just doing the math, matt, as you said, of this beleaguered city, a quarter million people still managing to survive under what must be horrific conditions. that's still 100,000 people we're talking about. do we have any idea what kind of

services, what kind of stores for supplies? i mean, when you see the pictures of mariupol, it's utterly devastated. is there a viable part of it where people are surviving okay? >> reporter: well, we know there's one part of it that is not under russian control, and that's the steel works plant, that is under ukrainian control and has been since the beginning. but that's the only part that's left. so the only parts that are still, you know, inhabited, it sounds like, are actually under russian control. you were asking about whether services are available. that's a tough one. one service that isn't readily available in mariupol is internet service, which makes it very hard to answer the rest of your question. we can't really speak with a lot of people on the ground there. we don't even what's going on. i just spoke with a man who -- a ceo of a company there, he's trying desperately to find dozens of his workers in mariupol. all he can do is assume the worst. i can't reach them.

he got out himself. he said he was driving around dead bodies as he was leaving in march. but those who are left, it's hard to know exactly what's going on with them. he is really just -- really is filled with dread about the day when he goes back and sees the destruction of his city. this is a man who, by the way, who has fled the russians, he's from the donbas region, he fled the russians nearly a decade ago and fled them once again just several weeks ago. and the city of mariupol is filled with people like that who are from the east of ukraine, who have spent the better part of their lifetimes, the past decade or more, just ahead of the russian advance, and now they're doing it again, alex. >> your reporting is absolutely chilling, matt. i'm encouraged that there are still 400 fighters holed up in that steel plant. thank you very much for that. robert bell, ambassador to nato during the obama administration, former assistant secretary general for nato defense

investment. robert, welcome to the broadcast here. boris johnson made that visit to kyiv. having done so, is it now plausible for other western leaders to do that? what are the odds president biden will actually do it as well? and what can be gained from a potential biden visit? >> reporter: alex, i think it's not only possible, i think it's very important, if not president biden himself, then a very senior representative of the president to be there, not just for a photo op, not just for a meeting. a number of european leaders, including the president of the european council and commission, have gone. and heads of state from eastern europe have been there. some of our allies in nato and eastern european states are reopening their embassies in kyiv. ours has been closed for about two months. and even worse, we do not have an ambassador to ukraine throughout this whole crisis.

so it seems to me there is a real need here for an act by president biden to show even more statesmanship, and get a very senior official in there who is willing to take risks, but who will be his senior representative directly to president zelenskyy. >> i can imagine secret service members listening to this with that suggestion thinking, oh, wow, what an extraordinary undertaking that would be to secure a presidential visit like that. let me ask you about the austrian chancellor who is saying after his meetings with presidents putin and zelenskyy that peace talks in istanbul have the confidence of both sides and could lead to some sort of agreement. does that strike you as a good possibility, from what you know? >> i think it's still very much a long shot, alex, unfortunately. i think what the austrian chancellor is saying is that the venue and sort of the credibility of the turks under

president erdogan in istanbul to be a mediator is respected by both sides but i don't think the austrian chancellor is saying that the position of the two sides has come close enough that you can be optimistic at this point still about a negotiated settlement. >> i mean, of course austria remains neutral, militarily speaking. however, the chancellor was able to give my colleague chuck todd some pretty clear insights into the mind of vladimir putin. here is part of that conversation. >> no, i think he is now in his own war logic. you know, he's saying the war is necessary for security guarantees for the russian federation. he doesn't trust the international community. he knows that he has his weapons and he knows the threat of this weapon. so i don't know if he really will use it. but he knows that he can

threaten the world with this weapon. so i think he believes he is winning the war. >> i'm curious what you take away from what we heard there and what struck me was that the admission that this is all about russian security. what happened to the argument of invading ukraine to "denazify" it? >> that was a completely bogus argument from the beginning, alex. >> right. >> what putin is trying to do is to strengthen his hold on power and restore sort of an ethnonationalistic, sympathetic, and subservient buffer zone beyond the immediate borders of russia, if not to even beyond that push nato back more towards the original cold war lines of 1989. >> which bodes what, in your mind, for the prospect of finland and sweden joining nato? i mean, clearly vladimir putin is vehemently opposed to it. but he's trying to create this kind of a buffer zone, anything

along a border with russia stands in peril. >> i think you can draw a distinction with finland and sweden. in part, i mean, putin is worried about countries to his south where you could have popular democracies, what he would call a color revolution that would inspire the russian people themselves. but finland and sweden are well-established democracies. they're full members of the european union. they've fully participated in the eu's own military operations, expeditionary operations. and they're very senior partners with nato, including militarily, after finland and sweden had their armed forces with us in afghanistan. so i think it's different. it's different historically. the finns know something about russia both in peace and war. and russia knows something about finland, both in peace and in

war. so i believe that while we have to take putin's threats with regard to finland and sweden joining seriously, i think we have to keep our nerve here. i do believe they're going to ask to join, be accepted. and by the end of perhaps this year, those two countries will have come into the alliance, which is a phenomenal strategic setback for mr. putin and really reaps the harvest of this catastrophe. >> when he talk about taking seriously the threats of vladimir putin, do those include the nuclear threats that he has either directly or alluded to, and i mean, would he seriously give that consideration? what would he lose by doing that? >> he would lose everything if he used a nuclear weapon. vladimir putin joined with president biden and boris johnson and even president xi in january in putting out a

five-nation statement that said a nuclear war could never be won and must never be fought. that saying of course came from ronald reagan and mikhail gorbachev many years ago. i think there's recognition, even on putin's part, that making nuclear threats and saber-rattling is one thing in terms of trying to disrupt and demoralize and affect an adversary's calculations, like maybe the finnish and swedish parliaments. but it's another thing to actually use a nuclear weapon. the united states has a very strong nuclear deterrent. we just need to remind putin this is serious business and it can work both ways. >> thank you so much for the serious conversation on this holiday, robert bell, and your time on this special sunday. thank you, sir. meantime, fruits and vegetables rotting in trucks at the southern border. how the texas governor made this nation's supply chain backlog

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president biden is facing another major challenge at the southern border where a wave of migrants from central america and ukraine are arriving in numbers we have not seen in over 20 years. some are blame a planned biden administration policy change that could make the situation worse. guad venegas has more from los angeles. hi, guad. >> reporter: the arrival of large numbers of migrants at the border are no surprise. we know this because of the multiple economic and social factors in countries like cuba, nicaragua, venezuela, even ukraine. some are entering illegally and some requesting asylum. a new surge of migrants arriving

at the u.s./mexico border. government data showing there were more than 220,000 encounters with migrants along the border last month, the highest number in 22 years. texas governor greg abbott blaming the white house for the surge. >> so the biden administration's open border policies have led to a record number of illegal immigrants crossing the border into the united states. >> reporter: it comes as the biden administration prepares to lift title 42, a covid-era immigration policy put in place in 2020. >> it was an appropriate time from a public health point of view to lift the title 42 restrictions. >> reporter: the change would allow migrants to request asylum at ports of entry without a special exemption which is currently required. it also gives detained migrants an opportunity to plead their case, ending immediate removals. >> it is unprecedented and it is dangerous. >> reporter: governor abbott, opposing the change, and even busing migrants to washington,

dc in an attempt to draw attention to the issue. >> it's nice the state of texas is helping them get to their final destination as they await the outcome of their emigration proceedings. >> reporter: the texas governor going a step further, forcing mexican officials to sign agreements promising to enforce mexican immigration laws, ending the state's commercial vehicle inspections at the border, a measure that already caused companies to lose millions while trucks were backed up for miles. yet the challenge remains, with tens of thousands of migrants still making their way to the border. now the latest surge of migrants is from ukrainians. we were recently in tijuana and saw that ukrainians are given a chance to request asylum with a special exemption due to the war. but migrants from non-european countries also fleeing violence say they have been ignored due to title 42. if title 42 ends next month,

migrants from all countries will be allowed to request asylum, which would level the playing field and possibly increase the number of people under the custody of border officials. >> okay, guad, thank you for that. as he mentioned in that report, after a week of intensifying backlash, the texas governor reversed the emigration order inspecting trucks at the border, which caused major supply chain delays and millions of dollars in economic losses. the governor said he did it to send a message about the flow of migrants into the u.s. thank you, laura, for joining me on this holiday sunday. troopers found no evidence of drug trafficking during abbott's inspections. he continues waging this well-publicized battle on immigration with the white house. in the end is this nothing more than a political stunt or is there more to it?

>> well, alex, it's very hard to find drugs or illegal immigration when you're checking for tire pressure. so these additional inspections were conducted after u.s. customs and border patrol already did their drug sniffing dogs, their x-ray machines. these were nuisance inspections instituted to check for brake light problems, to make sure paperwork was in order. they did not have the jurisdiction to go into those trucks and really look at what was in them. so this really did engender the ire of a lot of texas and mexican business people, especially in the ephemeral world of produce, because days of sitting at the border meant a lot of produce was at risk of spoilage. >> i'm going to get to that in just one second, but before i do, give me a sense of the economic impact of this eye-rolling policy on businesses

and the already strained supply chain. do we know how much this cost suppliers and retailers in texas and beyond? >> i talked to owners, growers, shippers in mexico and in texas, who said they had already been impacted into the millions. so they were losing -- they were in arrears on contracts with kroger, walmart, all of the major grocery chains in the u.s., because this is the time of year where we're still very reliant upon produce from mexico. so melons, limes, all those things were hung up for nearly a week at the border. >> rotting, perishable goods. let's take a listen to what beto o'rourke, the democratic candidate for governor in texas, had to say. >> it's sending prices through the roof, spiking inflation even higher in the state of texas. it's causing massive supply chain problems. so it's the produce that you

talked about, two-thirds of the fresh produce that we consume in texas comes from mexico. and over the last week it has literally been rotting in the backs of those trucks. so this weekend, when we go to the supermarket, there is not going to be anything on the shelves in the produce section. >> so the supermarkets, these restaurateurs with whom you spoke, can they quantify how much it's affected business? >> a lot of the vendors i was talking to were still having a lot of this produce go in transit. this is not just produce that gets used in texas. this goes to new york, a lot of it goes to canada. a lot of it is still in transit, they're waiting to unload it at the other end to find out if it's still viable. we are seeing at the grocery store spiking prices for things like avocados, watermelons, limes, things that almost exclusively at this time of year

come through the southern border, in texas. >> governor abbott said he ended these tire pressure inspections, to quote you, after he reached agreements with governors of a number of mexican states to improve border security. first of all, does a governor have the authority to negotiate? >> a number of constitutional scholars have said this does not seem like something he has the power to do, to basically gum up the works for international trade, especially with one of our major trading partners. i have not heard anything since friday night when abbott made this announcement, from the white house. but earlier in the week jen psaki made a couple of comments about this being a stunt, yet another abbott stunt, there have been several of this ilk, and so we'll see what remains and whether this has affected support from his base. certainly a lot of texas business people are irate that

this stunt affected their bottom line. you know, a lot of other people say this is just another example of abbott standing firm on immigration coming into his state, that it's the front line for this and this is calling attention to what biden should have done. >> i'm going to ask those folks who say that to go ahead and read your excellent article in "the washington post" and then see if that's how they still feel. laura riley, thank you so much. meantime, no holiday from gun violence in america. yet another mass shooting overnight, just days after the 25th state in the nation gave the okay to carry a concealed gun without a permit. so where is the hope of reducing the bloodshed by bullet? next. ♪♪ ♪♪

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launched missiles toward the sea of japan. they flew 58 miles. it comes on the same day that north koreans marked the birth of kim jong-un's grandfather, kim il sung. pope francis calls for peace in ukraine during his easter mass this morning. he called for peace in the country and urged those listening not to get used to war. a suspect is now in custody after a mass shooting in a south carolina mall. nine people were shot at the shopping center near columbia. five others were hurt trying to get away. all but one of the victims have been released from the hospital. police say there was a second shooter and the violence erupted during a conflict between the two shooters. meantime this morning another shooting. more than 90 gunshots rang out at 12:30 at a house party attended by mostly underage people at a rental property in pittsburgh. [ yelling ]

[ sound of gunfire ] [ screaming ] that was terrifying. police say two people under the age of 18 were fatally shot. the shooting prompted some partygoers to jump straight out the windows, leaving them with broken bones and lacerations. let's bring a former fbi agent, executive, and authorize of the book "stop the killing: how to end the mass shooting crisis." catherine, i thought we would just be talking about the new york subway shooting this week, after ten people were shot, thankfully no one died in that incident. but here we are talking about two mass shootings in the last 24 hours, at the mall in south carolina, and at the party in pennsylvania. the question is there in the title of your book, how to end

the mass shooting crisis. what do you know, how do we do that? >> yeah, i think that is such a vexing problem. and everybody wants to -- we all instinctively want the answer. those at the mall, maybe they're gang-bangers, maybe they're young kids carrying ghost guns, that's one kind of gun problem, and the subway shooter is another kind of gun problem. the first thing is we all the need to recognize that there are different solutions because there's different problems. they're vastly different problems. i'll give you a third example. we have roughly 47,000 firearms deaths last year in this country. two out of three where suicides. so there's a third type of firearm deaths we're dealing with. so you really have to look for

different solutions to different problems. that's the first answer. >> i'm going to throw out a few more numbers here that will distinguish from the ones you put out there regarding suicides and the numbers buried within them. as you look between 2019 and 2020, gun deaths in the u.s. surged by more than 4,000, from 15,000 to over 19,000. again, i'm presuming this does not include suicides. then you go to 2021, that number accelerates during the pandemic. and the numbers are ticking up this year. what's behind that, though, the pandemic stress? has that just exacerbated this already terrible gun violence in the united states? >> i think absolutely, you hit the nail on the head, alex, that's exactly what it is. the research we've done at the fbi, when we look at what prompts somebody moving in this trajectory towards violence, a lot of times it involves multiple stressors. everybody has three to four stressors, then something that triggers the violence. that's what we've seen in our

research at the fbi through the behavioral team. the stressors are things like primarily mental health issues, financial issues, interactive personal problems with your family or friends or your job. if you think of those four things, financial, job stress, family stress, mental health issues, and then you put the pandemic on top of all of that, how could we not have an increase? it's a terrible mixture, we can't get out of it. >> it's too much to wade through, that's for sure. as you know, and noted, president biden having announced his executive order to ban untraceable ghost guns, which republican senators are vowing to block? the very next day, that was monday, in tuesday in georgia, governor kemp made his state the 25th in the nation to allow guns

to be carried in public without a permit. do you see some sort of policy that could be put out there, not that you would be advocating for it, but something that would say, all right, this is going to address it and we're going to fix it? >> yeah, and i think that as long as it's not an "it," as long as it's not one thing, absolutely there are definitely things that can be done. we know that even though there's federal law with regard to guns, the idea that we're going to overcome some hurdles and change the gun laws in the united states dramatically, you know, on the low end of probability, right? but state laws are really where the meat is for gun laws. and that includes the conceal carry, that includes things like ghost guns and the ability for law enforcement to -- with red flag laws, for instance, law enforcement to go to the courts and say i think this person as a danger to himself and others, which we think about the subway

shootings, the state law that was a red flag law that would have allowed perhaps that gun to be taken out of that guy's hands might have prevented that particular shooting. so there are certain things. and also prosecutors. prosecutors can do things differently. >> let me ask you, relative to the subway shooting, when we had those videos indicating what might happen, right, who is responsible for monitoring that most effectively? would that be the social media companies themselves or the government? >> well, neither monitors it, right? free speech. and free speech is sacrosanct in this country. as important as the second amendment, as important as the fourth amendment. that idea of monitoring really comes down to, which is really kind of the reason i did write the book, it's really the responsibility of us at citizens to look out for the people around us, because law enforcement, we know from research, law enforcement is the last one to get information about somebody who might be intending to commit a violent act. it's really family, friends,

peers, teachers, co-workers. those are the people who know and don't call, they don't see something and say something, they don't call in because they have an inkling that this guy is going to go over the edge. and they need to make those calls. they need to make those calls to tip lines. and i'll tell you, one other thing that we don't have in the united states, obviously you know about threat assessment teams in schools, threat assessment teams, businesses have those to some extent. okay, what is there available in the mental health care in the united states that captures the care of people who aren't a student in a school or don't have a company that has a threat assessment team? there isn't anything in the united states to capture a place where you can call and say, man, i just feel like this person needs help. we don't have that. one other thing about that. >> real quick. >> a lot of the mass shootings are suicide, right?

so it's the same behaviors we're looking for, suicidal behaviors. >> a lot to stay vigilant about. catherine schwett, thank you, appreciate it. next, mariupol's last stand. . (vo) for me, one of the best things about life is that we keep moving forward. we discover exciting new technologies. redefine who we are and how we want to lead our lives. basically, choose what we want our future to look like. so what's yours going to be? ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us.

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new revelations today from ukrainian president zelenskyy saying during a meeting with journalists that russian crimes against civilians would put an

end to the negotiation process. this as the city of mariupol is on the cusp of falling. nbc's raf sanchez has the latest from lviv, ukraine. raf? >> reporter: alex, the strategic port city of mariupol would be a major prize for vladimir putin after weeks of setbacks on the battlefields. today there are grim indications he may be about to take it. the defenders of mariupol making what may be their last stand. ukrainian troops outnumbered, outgunned, and holed up in the remains of one europe's largest steel plants. russia demanding they surrender by 6:00 a.m. local time, a deadline that came and went. but unclear how much longer they can hold on. the mayor of the devastated city saying this week 10,000 civilians have been killed already and warning the final toll may be twice that. president zelenskyy overnight hailing the remaining fighters

as heroes and threatening to break off peace talks with russia if they're massacred. we spoke this week to a fighter with azov, the ultranationalist militia defending mariupol. >> how will you fight if you can't get more ammunition? >> we're defending our land. we're highly trained and highly motivated. we are very, very dedicated. >> reporter: across the east of ukraine, vladimir putin's rockets still raining down. three people killed in this attack in kharkiv on saturday, local officials said. and ten more the day before that. including nina's 15-year-old son arta. "please open your eyes, my bunny," she pleads. putin says his war is to protect russian speakers in towns like this in luhansk. instead civilians fleeing for their lives and the worst likely still to come. u.s. officials warning that a renewed assault across the east

may now be only days away. russian troops who retreated from kyiv may be fast tracked back into the fight as early as this weekend according to two u.s. officials. in lviv's main church this morning, blessings as ukraine marks palm sunday. easter isn't celebrated here until next week. a celebration of resurrection in a country whose survival can sometimes feel miraculous. now, ukraine's deputy prime minister says she's trying to open up a humanitarian corridor out of mariupol for women and children but she says the russians are refusing to allow it, alex. >> okay, raf sanchez, thanks for that. it is a new article that came out this weekend in "the washington post." the top ten democratic presidential candidates for 2024, ranked. we'll show you the list and check it twice and we'll go over it with our guests who are always nice. offer everyday low prices,

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new today, "the washington post" is out with a list of the top ten potential democratic presidential candidates for 2024. it includes names ranging from pete buttigieg to alexandria ocasio-cortez. it comes after a poll from yougov that shows only 21% of democrats said they would pick president biden, which is barely above the 18% who said they weren't sure who was going to get their vote. joining me now, michael starr hopkins, attorney and president of northern starr strategies. susan del percio, a republican strategist, and david jolly, former republican congressman and msnbc contributor. hi guys, glad to see you all. we have not even made it through the midterms and we're talking about 2024. however, it is a legitimate question so i'm putting it out there. because president biden said he will be running for reelection.

but with the poll numbers diminishing, is there room for another democrat to break through? michael, when you look at this list of names, did any of them stick out to you as a legitimate possibility? >> absolutely. so i wrote a column about the fact that i thought president biden, did a good job during hi first term should either be primaied or he should decide not to run. there are names that are really strong names, people who appeal to both working class whites, appeal to african americans, and appeal to, you know, hispanic and latinos, and that's something democrats need to do. we haven't really put together a coalition since president obama. >> okay. sure brown's on that list, and a lot of people are. pete buttigieg, kamala harris, amy klobuchar, cory booker. the point i'm asking is all of them ran against joe biden in 2022 -- or rather 2020, and they lost. so michael, what's changed since

2020 that could bring a different outcome for any of those? >> look, i worked on the 2020 campaign for john deladelaney. america has had a chance to take a deep breath. part of why joe biden was picked is he was the best person to run against trump. people are trying to figure out who is the best person to take us into a new segment of american history. that has to be someone who's young, who can both be charismatic, but also be honest with america. you know, it's easter, and i can't help but think a lot of. are posting performative tweets talking about he is risen, but tomorrow are going to vote against, you know, lgbtq communities, are going to vote against social programs to help out minority communities, and so i think democrats really need to talk about that, to be aggressive, and not later. >> there's no shortage of hypocrisy in this country. that's for sure. so in politics, a week can change an entire political landscape, let alone two years.

much can happen between now and then, that between inflation, do you think that puts joe biden in a place to secure the nomination? >> i don't think that you'll see a substantial democrat choose to run a primary against joe biden should he decide to seek re-election. not sure he will seek to run for re-election, but it does depend if he does not -- it depends on the environment we find ourselves in. my guess is if he chooses not to, unless it's anything but health-related, it will be because there is a stench on washington, and people are just sick of what's happening in d.c., which means that you look outward of that meaning, what of the administration, and maybe to governors such as gretchen whitmore. the exception to that could be cory booker. he could be on pace to grab some

attention and develop a real base, but i don't see it happening, again, unless president biden decides not to seek re-election. >> so david, to you as a former republican, no longer associated with the party, are there any names that you could get behind? >> i think that list really looks backwards to be honest, and i agree with my fellow panelists this morning that you have to look for a new chapter in democratic politics, and you look to statehouses. vice president harris will be in the mix. you could look at michigan with governor whitmer, and grisham, and there are two names that come to the top with me. bra shear leading kentucky, and roy cooper a democrat elected twice in a state that donald trump won twice. you have to ask the question. how did roy cooper win in 2016 when trump won and get

re-elected in 2020 when trump won? it's a question we have to ask as we saw in the last election. are you going to go the pathway of that person that tries to bridge partisanship within the united states or do you choose a bold, progressive, perhaps a diversity ticket to really energize and mobilize the democratic party? that ultimately will be the first choice the party has to make going into the next presidential election. >> mm-hmm. mm-hmm. i want to pick up on something that really touches on what michael said earlier, and that's a pollster who gave an interview to politico who said, a lot of us feel if trump runs, a lot of us feel no one else could beat him except joe biden. he's always ahead, by one or two points. even at his lowest approval ratings, he still beats donald trump. is that how you see it, susan? >> to some extent, but you know what? joe biden has to make his own decision. plus, there's another interesting factor here. i think donald trump is absolutely running for president

until 2023. when he has to make a final decision, he'll wait as long as possible and probably decide not to run, but he's not going to get anyone else get in there. so that will leave -- if the democrats are waiting to see who they're running against, first, i think that's a horrible way to look towards 2024, but second, don't count on it be donald trump. >> yeah. can i tell you something? you are articulating what i have been thinking, and people say, he's running. i'm not sure of that for exactly the reasons you just said. it's you and me against the world right now. the same question to you. is biden the only candidate who could beat trump if he runs? >> no, actually. i think if biden ran against trump this time, he probably wouldn't win. i think it's going to have to be someone else, someone who's a little younger, someone who i think can articulate what america is all about, but also bring together the progressive

wing and the moderate wing. under biden, look. everyone expected the moderates to kind of coalesce around biden and progressives to be the problematic part of the party. it's been just the opposite. progressives like jayapal and others are working with him and others are trying to destroy his presidency. it has to be the mitch and drews, and roy cooper is a perfect example. it's almost as if we're back in 1992, and we need a bill clinton democrat who can check a lot of boxes. >> david, you get the last word on all this. what do you think? >> i'm going to flip the script on you in recognizing that we're in 2022, and democratic prospects in '24 could look entirely different. they could cruise to re-election, joe biden, but i'm going to flip the script that biden is the only person who could beat trump and i'll say this. donald trump is the only republican nominee that will lose to the democratic nominee.

i think if republicans pick anybody but donald trump, where the politics of the country sit today, the republican nominee will be whomever the democrats put up, but that's relying on today's politics, and the world can entirely change in the next 24 months. >> sage words from all of. this is going to be fun. thank you guys. have a great holiday. good to see you all. thank you for joining me. joining us also in the next hour, we have steve kornacki. also msnbc's meti hasan talking about the thriving of the war in ukraine. about the thriving of the war in ukraine. like the new honey mustd rotisserie-style chicken. it's sweet, it's tangy, it's tender, it never misses. you could say it's the steph curry of footlongs. you could, but i'm not gonna. subway keeps refreshing and refreshing and re... to help prevent bleeding gums, try saying hello gumwash with parodontax active gum health.

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