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a very good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. welcome to "alex witt reports". we begin with the war on ukraine, and the aftermath of shelling on the city of kharkiv today. reuters is reporting at least five people killed in this latest attack. it's one of many under way in several cities, even after russia withdrew ground forces and have set the sights on the eastern donbas region. russia is releasing this new video with a tank and the letter z and the words for donbas painted on. there is no confirmation on why or where the video was take.

fighters are holed up in a steel plant refusing to surrender, even though they are completely surrounded by pro-russian forces. >> it is most dire militarily, and heartbreaking. the city doesn't exist anymore. the remaining of the ukrainian army and large group of civilians are basically encircled by the russian forces. no high level talks are taking place. after bucha, it became particularly difficult to continue talking with the russians, but as my president mentioned, mariupol may be a redline. >> also new today, the chancellor of austria says he personally confronted vladimir putin on the issue of war crimes. >> it was bucha, and we saw the war crimes there, and the priest told us the russian soldiers

shot the civilians. you know it was not friendly conversation. it was frank and tough conversation, and i told him what i saw. he told me that he will cooperate with an international investigation on one hand, and on the other hand, he told me that he doesn't trust the western world. >> nbc's matt bradley is joining us from kyiv, ukraine. what can you tell us about all this as russia's threatening to escalate its attacks as soon as this week? >> reporter: yeah, i mean that's a very threatening situation. when we talk about escalating their attacks, that's what it is. the east of the country has been at war since 2014 since the last time the russians invaded ukraine. back when, you know, the ukrainians rejected their former

president, they had what they called the revolution where i am here in kyiv and ousted their pro-russian president, and instead have been moving west ward ever since then, and that is really what sparked the conflict that we're seeing now, eight years later, and so when we talk about the east, you know, vladimir putin, it seems as though has been very, very frustrated with his assault here, on the capital, and what you just mentioned, that they're still bombarding as of today a brutal attack that just happened in the center of the city that took quite a few deaths. so now when it comes to refocusing their efforts on the east, its attacks of tacit acknowledgment, in this part of the country, it's all by failed. moving to the east is a more modest effort, but at the same time, it's very, very threatening, and president volodymyr zelenskyy has said that this is really a new and more dangerous phase in the war. he's even come out and said that

russia is capable and may be willing to use chemical or maybe even nuclear weapons. here's what the president had to say. >> translator: there is a possibility of him using these weapons. nobody expected there to be a full scale invasion of ukraine from the russian federation when russia gives the information and says, if something goes not according to plan, they can use chemical weapons, and nuclear potential. and that is why i believe these are dangerous claims of untrustworthy people, and if we believe some of them are already untrustworthy, then they can use nuclear weapons. >> now president volodymyr zelenskyy says the russians are untrustworthy. he's been saying this for quite awhile, but a lot of this hangs on what happens in the coming hours or days in the southeastern city of mariupol. that city has been under siege for the past several weeks, maybe even months really, and he

said president zelenskyy, that if mariupol does fall to the russians which they have been trying to take for a long time, then the negotiations will be off. that's an interesting threat because at the end of the day, let's admit the russians don't appear to be taking these negotiations particularly seriously. >> mm-hmm. >> reporter: and president zelenskyy appears to have the support of the entire world, and if mariupol falls, he'll have the support of even more. so right now it looks as though vladimir putin's back is up, and that's why the risk is humans, the people, the civilians of ukraine, is so much greater. we're talking about a putin, and it's frustrated, angry and humiliated. alex? >> scary when you put it that way. with iz had back up against the wall, you don't know what we'll do. thank you very much, matt bradley. let's go to new signs of trouble.

ukrainian missiles struck the this warship "muskva." how did ukraine pull this attack off, richard? >> you were just talking with matt bradley about vladimir putin's back being up against the wall. this might be one reason, and we talk about the "moskva," and the significance of what happened here. let's put it in context. the experts say this loss of this particular warship reduced the black sea naval pour of russia by 10%. now this is the largest warship on the seas right now, one of the largest. the largest to be sunk during combat since world war ii. count the years between there. it was used to protect from ukrainian aerial attacks. you can see the number of sailors on it. the ship was roughly about 65 miles south of odesa. so now we have odesa down here.

it was roughly around this location. 65 miles south. then two ukrainian neptune missiles struck, and this is according to ukrainian officials. somewhere in this region being able to reach the "moskva" while claiming they had an unrelated fire that ignited, and then sunk. ukraine does not have a significant missile program, but they did have, in fact, a missile program that was in the middle of modifying what was a soviet-era missile. it's called the neptune. this is a picture from it from earlier that -- of this particular one. "the wall street journal" says this missile was not even done yet at the start of this war. in its final form though, the neptune is thought to be truck mounted.

it's mounted on a truck, and they have a 190-mile range. you saw that picture before, which means when it was launched, it was most likely circling this area again. why it was so important that ukraine still had control of the south, being able therefore to launch it, this neptune potentially to hit the "moskva." i'll show you something else, this is what might be surprising to some here. these are the armaments that it is. surface to air missiles, dual-purpose guns and it goes on and on and on, and it was really the defensive umbrella for the russian naval fleet up until this past week. >> so all that you just showed there, how do did a bierly tested new missile sink this ship? >> the russians are scratching their head on that. one possibility when you look at this particular missile, and

what happened here, shots fired from the ship, from "moskva" potentially set off a beacon to say, this is where we are at. so if the guns in the front of this particular warship were used or these anti-submarine tubes were used, this could have put out a signal, and "moskva" didn't expect an attack for the reasons mentioned. it wasn't done yet. a perfect storm, and alex, as russia still at this moment, when we look at where they're at -- now this is what i wanted to show you because the "moskva" is right over here. this is it. this little dot here, and the reason i want to zoom in on this, and as we zoom back out, this is how accurate they were able to get it from land here in this satellite picture here, they hit this little dot. >> wow. >> and that is what is so surprising i think to the russians. it also shows the accuracy of

this particular neptune missile. ukraine hopes this represents a domino effect that favors them in the end here, that as russia says from the last several -- couple of weeks, they're going to concentrate in the east. with the weakness now, and the russian naval defense system, and missile system, will that affect their ability to move forward, and therefore give more confidence to the counteroffensive of the ukrainians? >> i got to tell you, what it says is that don't underestimate the power of ukraine. >> yeah. >> and clearly russia has. anyway, thank you, richard. that was great. loved it. thank you so much. today on this one of christianity's holiest days, pope francis made an easter plea for people of ukraine, speaking to worshipper from the balcony of st. peter's square, and he issued a solemn warning this could all lead to nuclear war. he called for, quote, peace in war torn ukraine, solely tried

by the violence and destruction of this cruel and senseless war into which it was dragged. nbc's ann thompson brings us more on the message of peace. >> reporter: pope francis has used his spotlight to bring attention to the war in ukraine. having them crossed together on good friday, kissing the ukrainian flag from a devastated bucha, reminding catholics and people all over the world of the agony of war while celebrating the joy of the risen christ. father tom reece writes for religious news service. >> does the war of ukraine temper the joy of easter? >> well, i think it really puts the whole holy week and easter season into perspective. when we see christ on the cross, it reminds us that there's still suffering in the world today. >> reporter: the pope making clear his concern from the start, says phil palella who

covers the vatican for reuters. >> he actually went down to the russian embassy to talk to the ambassador to express his shock about what happened. hardly a day goes by that he doesn't say something about ukraine suffering. >> reporter: francis often preaches in gestures, but in this cries, it's his words that have been powerful, pleading with god to stop this massacre, rejecting russia's characterization of a military operation, calling it a war, and describing ukraine as a martyr country. he has mentioned russia just once in a prayer service, and while he has spoken to ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy, we know of no such call to russian president vladimir putin. he has not said putin's name since the war began. >> it's quite clear who he's talking about. an autocrat who's caught up in

some claims to national interest, and provoking conflict. everybody knows who that is. >> the vatican never takes sides in the sense of calling out leaders or countries by name, but there's no doubt about which side he is on. >> reporter: francis does not shy away from world affairs. in 2014, he helped broker a thaw in u.s./cuba relations. >> i want to thank his holiness, pope francis who shows us the world as it should be, rather than simply settling for the world as it is. >> reporter: he's not the first pope the play a role on the global stage. john paul ii prayed to bring down communism. pious xii condemned the nazis in world war ii. now pope francis says a trip to ukraine is on the table as he seeks a stop to what he calls the rivers of blood and tears. >> he's playing the long game.

he wants to be in a position where he might be able to be a mediator to resolve this conflict and bring about peace. >> reporter: and alex, this morning in st. peter's square, we heard more strong words from pope francis in his city and world address. he called this an easter of war and said there had been too much blood and violence. he prayed for what he called a war torn ukraine and said that ukraine had been dragged into this war, and then he pleaded with the world, let us not get used to war. alex? >> okay, anne thompson. thank you so much particularly on this holiday for that report. staggering new numbers on how much it's costing americans just to survive, and in particular, rent an apartment. o particular, rent an apartment. ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪

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new today, news for home buyers. mortgage rates are rising and fast. they're higher than they have been in years, and that means homeowners could be paying

hundreds of dollars more a month. that's if they can get a house in the first place. katie beck has more. >> reporter: logan and lauren hayford are desperately searching for a new home. >> if you are not able to see it within the first couple of hours, they already have 30 showings. >> reporter: after multiple offers, some as high as $40,000 over ask price, they have been outbid over and over. >> it's a gut punch to hear someone else has got that house that you kind of envisioned raiing babies in. >> reporter: this week more bad news. the average rate of a 30-year mortgage reaching 5% for the first time in a decade. >> what can buyers make of that? 50% sounds pretty scary. >> we were expecting rates to rise. they did go a little bit faster i think than a lot of people predicted they would. >> reporter: in february of 2021, the median sales price for a home was roughly $310,000 with a then 3% rate.

a monthly payment was about $1,300. one year later, the median price is about $357,000, and now with 5% being the rate, the monthly payment goes up to $1,800. >> while demand has been growing, inventory of affordable housing has been shrinking, making home buyers even more competitive. >> i just want you to take a look at all of the people who are lined up to see this property. >> reporter: this video taken by a real estate agent in raleigh, north carolina showing what it looks like when supply can't match demand. >> with the prices rising, the purchaing power going down as rates are going up, because there's so little housing available. >> reporter: experts' best advice for buyers in this market is to keep expectations flexible. >> look in other places where you may not have looked before. pay off some debt to kind of make a little bit more room because rates are going to keep

rising. >> reporter: adjusting budgets for home buying. katie beck, abc news, richmond. >> americans are not just facing higher mortgage rates. inflation hit a 41-year high with consumer prices jumping 8.5% from last march. costs are rising on just about everything from food to energy to housing, forcing the average household to spend an additional $327 a month. that is according to moody's analytics analysis. joining me is the chief economist from moody's analytics. welcome to you. can i just say though, my jaw dropped. >> unbelievable. >> that was unbelievable, that house, those showings. we here in the studio were, like, what? it looked like a party and just imagine the feelings of that. unreal. >> imagine the seller. they were pretty happy i suppose. >> oh, yeah. point well taken. they're happy. as we look at this piece, the average rate of a 30-mere

mortgage, has reached a high in 40 years. some mortgages have variable rates, right? some homeowners get priced out of their own homes. can that happen? >> there's not a lot of adjustable rate mortgages out there, alex, about 10% of mortgages outstanding are armed. this is going to hit the hoing demand. that couple you had on, they're going to start having to do a calculation at a 5% mortgage rate at much higher house prices and they're going to be priced out. they're not going to be able to afford it. demand is getting hit hard here, and i suspect a month from now, two months from now, you won't see those cars outside homes like you are right now, and that line you saw i think reflects what mortgage rates were a month or two ago, and you only have to go back to the beginning of the year, and it's close to record lows and i suspect it's going to be a different story.

sellers will have a hard time selling their homes because buyers can't buy it with these house prices. >> how long do mortgage rates like these last? how long will 5% be the average? >> we've gotten pretty used to this incredibly low -- >> true. >> -- mortgage rates, and they're not -- they're not typical meaning in a well-functioning economy, one, you know, 3.5% unemployment, inflation back to where it should be, the economy sticking to script, the fixed mortgage rate should be 3 at -- 5.5% to 6%, and that's where we're seeing the adjustment. first demand, home sales will weaken and we'll see house prices start to come back down to earth. they've risen so much because of these low mortgage rates and with higher ones, there's nowhere to go, but for them to start coming down in a lot of markets. >> most people us missed the bo and had a good interest rate.

raising the interest rates to tamp down inflation, is that the only alternative for the feds? they have other levers to pull, but the biggest one seems to be raising rates, and yet, mark, that has its own other consequences that might not be as desirable. >> yeah, good point, but the fed really doesn't have a whole lot of tools. i mean, the key tool they have is interest rates, and they're, you know, pushing on the brakes now pretty hard. that's why fixed mortgage rates have gone to 5%, and the higher rates work through the housing market. the housing market is part of the interest rate sensitive part of the economy. it's going to hurt and we see stock prices haven't gone anywhere in part because of what the fed is doing. the fed really has to keep pushing rates up until the economy slows to quell these inflationary pressures. there's really no option here, and i expect them to, you know, kind of follow through on the rate increases that they've announced they're going to put in place over the course of next year. not a lot else that can be done

at this point. >> this economic climate that you have, inflation rising, interest rates rising, is that a recipe for recession? is there any way to avoid one? >> it's going to be a tricky time. we have been here in the past, you know, it's usually been at the end of a business cycle and recession is generally what follows. i think we're going to need some pretty deft policy-making by the fed. they're going to have to be very judicious in how they raise interest rates and be flexible in raising rates to not push -- to quell that inflation, but not push the economy into recession, and alex, to be frank, i think we need a little bit of luck. hopefully the pandemic continues to fade because, you know, that has been very disruptive, and the key reason why inflation is where it is today. all the supply chain issues, and hopefully, you know, russia stands down because if they continue to push and oil prices go higher, it's going to make it all but impossible for the fed to navigate the tarmac

racehorse. so some deft policy-making and luck. >> when you say recession, give us a sense of what that means for the average person. i mean, how does -- how does it affect them? >> jobs. recession means the economy is going backwards. it's getting smaller. so businesses aren't selling as much of what they produce. they don't need as many workers and they start laying off workers and that feels like a distant possibility at this point given all the jobs and all the unfilled, open positions given the low unemployment rate that's falling, but typically this kind of environment sows the seeds for the economy going into recession, but that's, you know, probably 12, 18 months away if we go there. look, and i don't think we're going to go there, just to be clear. i think the fed is up to the task, and i think they'll be able to navigate it. it'll be bumpy and uncomfortable. it's already uncomfortable. this inflation and these rates are very painful for a lot of americans, but i think we'll

navigate through, and we won't suffer that recession, but if we do, it's probably 12, 18 months down the road, and it will mean higher unemployment. >> in terms of uncomfortable, the home prices, gas, groceries as well, let's talk about rent because they are skyrocketing. rents in february, they went up 40% in austin, 36% in new york, 30% in miami compared to this time last year. any relief in sight for consumers on that front? >> that's going to take a bit of time too. that just goes back to the housing market, and, you know, the lack of supply, and this is a problem that's been building, you know, since the financial crisis a decade ago. zoning restrictions, higher permitting costs, and now because of the pandemic and the global supply chain disruptions, you know, builders can't get the lumber or appliances that they need to get homes across the finish line to complete them. we have had a real lack of supply, and demand has been strong because as the pandemic has wound down, a lot of millennials, folks in their 20s

and 30s have left their parents and struck out on their own, and they tend to rent. demand and supply, that dynamic will take a long while to unwind. er i think we're at the peak of the rent growth, but a year or two we'll probably be down to something that feels more manageable, but it will take time. >> any chance -- landlords are they pricing themselves out of a rental market? with empty places? >> well, not immediately, no. here's another fact for you. the vacancy rate, that's the percent of all these that are empty, is pretty close to a record low going back to world war ii. they're in a pretty enviable position. we just need more construction. we need more homes, particularly affordable rental, you know, work force housing. it would be nice if congress and the administration could help

out here. there are a lot of things they could do to help out here, and that would be next year, but it doesn't seem any time soon. >> we look forward to hearing about it. have a good way. happy day on this sunday. >> yeah. could president biden soon visit ukraine? that is what ukraine's president wants him to do. we're going to have more on volodymyr zelenskyy's message next. have more on volodymyr zelenskyy's message next [ mid-tempo music playing ] ♪♪ ♪♪ why don't you do cool spins? uh, people need to read it. i can't read it. [ chuckles ] that's 'cause you're like 4. 4 1/2. switch to progressive, and you can save hundreds. you know, like the sign says. can a company make the planet a better place? what if it's a company that's pursuing 100% renewable energy in our operations. and aiming to protect millions of acres of land.

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ukraine. as now mariupol is said to be on the brink of falling. we know president zelenskyy made quite clear he hopes president biden will visit ukraine. what did he say about that? >> reporter: it may be a little noisy here, but that's a reminder of how lucky we are, where folks are allowed to voice their opinions freely. in that interview on cnn earlier this morning, with volodymyr zelenskyy, he told jake tapper a number of things. he said he believes genocide is occurring within ukraine, and it is russia's fault. he says he has no plans to fwif up any land to russia whatsoever, and he did say he wants president biden to visit ukraine, to see the atrocities first hand. here's what he had to say. >> do you want president biden to come here? >> yes. >> are there any plans for him to come? >> i think he would. >> you think he will? >> i think he will, and i think he -- it's his decision, of

course, and about the safety situation, it depends, but i think -- i think he would for the united states, and that's why he should come here. >> reporter: now it is clear that's what president zelenskyy wants and the white house hasn't commented on this yes. they have been very clear, jen psaki, saying that she does not have any plans in the works for the president to visit ukraine, and of course, it would cause a number of security and logistical concerns for the president to go in and out of the a conflict zone. i think back to 2018 where president trump visited iraq to visit military members during christmas. that was completely shrouded in secrecy. he left the white house in the middle of the night literally with just a small group of white house staff, and a number of the members of the press, and that was a trip that wasn't even reportable until the former president was already almost done with the trip and, in fact,

towards the united states, and this has been successful, trips to ukraine for other foreign leaders, including uk prime minister boris johnson. he took a train from poland to kyiv just last week, but i will remind you, alex, the united states secret service wouldn't even let joe biden take a train from wilmington to washington on inauguration day because of security concerns. alex? >> the headache to your point, and clearly president zelenskyy, he acknowledged that. he knows of the security concern, but the situation you describe with donald trump, much different, only because the reason joe biden would go to ukraine was to show that support of unity, show him there with zelenskyy at the time. there's a lot to be considered. anyway, gary, thank you so much. we'll see you again. in the meantime, it is a voting block that won't be taking it for granted and the drastic decrease in the support for a particular party.

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a new poll this week is causing major concern for democrats ahead of the midterms as support from one crucial voting block appears to be fading. quinnipiac found just 26% of hispanic voters approve of biden's job performance. it is the lowest mark among any demographic. let's go to steve kornacki. he's at the big board for us. so steve, break it down.

>> all right. so this is one of the biggest questions that was posed by the 2020 election for the 2022 midterms and really for beyond american politics. the group that moved the most in 2020, hispanic voters. toward the republicans, away from the democrats was the one-time thing, or did this signal a bigger, more significant shift in american politics? let's set this up first of all. here's where in 2016, if we went back to the clinton versus trump race, they went for the democrats by almost 40 points and you go to the 2018 midterm election, blue we have a year, and democrats did even better, and it was just about every group out there, including hispanics. the democratic margin, democrats won by nearly 50 points when it came to hispanic voters. 47-point margin, but that's when the shift i'm talking about happened. in the 2020 election, democrats

still won the hispanic vote, but look at this. the margin came all the way down to 21 points. it wasn't just off that 2018 midterm margin. it was way off hillary clinton's margin in 2016. only a 21-point margin for joe biden over donald trump. trump getting nearly 40% of the hispanic vote. hispanic vote obviously rapidly expanding demographic. there are some states in particular where it's poised to be a key block. if republicans can keep these inroads they made or maybe even build on them, big, big ramifications. that's the question. are they keeping those inroads? we've taken a look at all the public polling that has come out this spring. more than a dozen of these polls that have looked at the hispanic vote in the 2022 midterms. the generic ballot questions. do you want the democrats or the republicans to be in control in congress? here's what we found. when you average them all together, the democrats are still leading. the margin is 16. the margin is in the same

ballpark, in fact, it's down a little bit from 2020. it's not up at 40 or 50 points. so the polling that we're seeing at least right now, you always take it with a grain of salt, but the polling we're seeing right now suggests that the shift we saw take place in the second part of the trump presidency in the 2020 election may be holding at least in the 2022 midterms and by the way, something we're seeing as well, we talked about this with white voters over the last decade or so. this big shift when it comes to education. white voters with a college degree, white voters without a college degree moving more in the republican direction. we're seeing the makings of an education split among hispanic voters as well. check this out. in 2018, these are hispanic voters without a college degree. hispanic voters without a degree went democratic by 44 points in those 2018 midterm elections. in 2020, a 30-point shift. look at this.

55-41, biden beat trump among hispanic voters without a degree, more than 40% for trump there. you see them crossing that threshold there. that was a bigger shift with degrees. you're seeing a bit of what we've seen among white voters. they might be becoming a phenomenon among hispanic voters. a particular shift among hispanics without college degrees. you take a look at states with highest hispanic populations. these are places you would look for obvious electoral ramifications. one thing i would note is in nevada which is a key senate race this year of all the states you see this year as the highest concentration of hispanic voters without college degrees. the most republican trending aspect of the hispanic demographic is most pronounce tld in nevada again, with a very key senate race in nevada. take a look at some of the other senate races to watch this year. again, we justice talked about nevada, big hispanic population

and colorado, in arizona, and if that shift we're seeing in the polling, if that holds up, it could have huge ramifications in all three of those races. these are just senate races and house races particularly in the rio grande valley. south texas, there are a bunch of congressional seats that republicans are looking at that five years ago, ten years ago, it wouldn't have dreamed of being competitive in. they think they've got a shot to win this year. we talk in 2020, a shift in south florida, miami-dade county in particular, the hispanic vote there. we're seeing this in various parts of the country. it could be the outcome of 2022, and if republicans do maintain or build on those inroads with hispanic voters, it's not just necessarily 2022. 2024, that could open up a lot of new possibilities for republicans and beyond. it could really be transformative for american politics if the hispanic vote really goes up for grabs. >> i got to tell you, steve. some of those numbers were

outstanding. it was extraordinary, like, jaw-dropping. thank you for that. next, the one industry that is profiting off the war, and american taxpayers are helping them. off the war, and american taxpayers are helping them ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. to help prevent bleeding gums, try saying hello gumwash with parodontax active gum health. it kills 99% of plaque bacteria and forms an antibacterial shield. try parodontax active gum health mouthwash. as a main street bank, pnc has helped over 7 million kids

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this time heavier one sense to ukraine defending from a new russian offensive. announcing $800 million in ammunition packages including artillery systems and armored personnel carriers. the u.s. has given uc ugg more thanes 3ds billion in security assistants. joining me now to discuss that and more, host of a show on peacock and here on msnbc. so good to see you, my friend. thank you for joining me. a long day ahead of you still. anyway, here we go. we have impact of the ukraine war. that certainly is felt worldwide. millions displaced, costs driven up by sanctions, threat of wider war.

as this conflict shows absolutely no signs yet of slowing down, you recently pointed out there is one group that is thriving amidst this whole situation. talk about that. >> yeah. unfortunately every time there's a war the defense industry does very well out of the war. the defense industry makes a lot of money. war is hell. everyone suffering in a war. no winners in a war. not true, sadly. saw that from the war in afghanistan. see that with the ongoing u.s.-backed saudi war in yemen. unfortunately in ukraine. defense contractors doing hugely well in terms of stock price, money making. ceos of companies like raytheon and lockheed martin salivating, tensions great for business. listen to earnings calls, alex. getting excited how much money their companies would make. a real problem. we want to support ukraine. a right to defend itself against

an illegal invasion. therefore white house and defense department talking with companies. shouldn't allow lobbyists to cynically use the ukraine war as a way to keep bumping up the pennell budget that keeps going up and up and up sadly. >> to your point, what happens with stock increases for defense companying specifically looking at lockheed martin. at the top there. 31% increase. is there a way to support ukraine's struggle without supporting the arms industry? >> i think, yes and no. in the short term, no. in the long term, yes. because we already spend so much money on defense. seems to be this idea people saying, well, now we see the russian invasion of ukraine need to step up defense efforts. reminded back in a cold war. already spend so much. too much money, on defense. spend almost $800 billion a year. we spend more than the next 11

countries combined on defense. we spend 16 times, alex. you understand the defense budget, it's 16 times the russian defense budget. i think woe have dominance already when it comes to military spending. the idea we keep spending more and more and more is ridiculous. because look at the war in afghanistan. just ended last year a 20-year, what? longest war in american history. logic tells us our defense budget should go down when you end an epically-long multi-trillion drawer war. not up. yet joe biden puts in for a defense budget higher than donald trump planned to put in. congress throws in an extra what? $20 billion, $30 billion? no one ever asks can we afford the defense budget? will it contribute to inflation? add to the debt? how do we pay for it? joe manchin will not pay for seniors to get free dental and vision saying we can't afford it. too inflationary. yet people like joe manchin vote

blindly every year to up and up and up our defense budget. >> is there a way to monitor whether the people like the joe manchins you're talking about, any member of congress, can benefit from these higher prices and the push through the pentagon of higher budgets? >> of course they benefit. benefit in terms of the pork that comes to a lot of they're states. members of congress, wisconsin progressive house member on my show the other day made point arms company in his district pressuring to vote for more spending. that is always a political pressure when you have quote/unquote jobs dependent on the defense industry and of course, defense lobbyists who contribute to campaigns. lockheed martins and wraith yons. we understand the gun lobby. why don't we understand the power of the arms industry when it comes to this. president eisenhower, general eisenhower, in farewell address back in 1961, i warn you, war

you, again unwarranted iran sfluns of the military industrial xplex. eisenhower said that today, dismissed as a far-left crank or putin apologist. right then and right now. we do not keep to spending more and more money. yes, let's support ukraine but not hand out contract to these defense contractors. >> you and i work in tandem. graphics show with your words visual of numbers and how this is playing out. with the u.s. spending more on defense than the next 11 countries combined. 2017 to 2021 u.s. accounted for 39% of major arms deliveries around the world. providing weapons for 103 nations. more than half of the member states of the u.n. when you mehdi, see these numbers, you have to ask this question. how many influence does the arms industry have incentivizing conflict versus conflict resolution when it comes to diplomacy? >> a great question. i think one of the reasons

united states gets into so many war was and advocating a military response to any problem is because we are the biggest arms supplier in the world and don't need to be. we don't need to have the saudi arabian buying 25% of our weapons, biggest purchaser of arms. defend ukraine. fine. do we need to help saudi arabia bomb yep jn the biggest customer of our arms industry. bomb yemen. definitely a line, direct connection, between how much we spend on defense, the size of our arms industry, our supply of weapons around the world and the fact we are a country that tends to be very hawkish and get into a lot of wars we later regret. >> got to tell you, love the infusion of energy and intelligence you bring always to your show and to this show when you join me. >> you're being kind. >> just telling the truth. thank you. in case you didn't know, mr. mehdi hosts the "mehdi hasan

show" tonight at 8:00 east interviewing zach tahhan. and continues beak nights at 7:00 eastern on the peacock channel "the choice" from msnbc. breaks new on ukraine. new information where besieged forces are not backing down and new message from what president zelenskyy said about a potential president biden visit to that war-torn country. ...because you're crazy... ...and you like it. you get bigger... ...badder... ...faster. ♪ you can never have too much of a good thing... and power is a very good thing. ♪ hi, i'm debra. i'm from colorado. and power is a very good thing.

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