senate finance committee were optimistic they would be in full force getting the president's budget sussed out and passed. >> sarah mucha, thank you for being here. a reminder, we will hear from the president later today, around 9:45, as he addresses an update on the situation with ukraine and russia. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪♪ breaking news overnight. vladimir putin declares success in the war-torn city of mariupol, but what about those ukrainian fighters and civilians holed up inside the steel plant? this comes as russia test launches a new missile and issues a warning to its adversaries. we will have reaction from the pentagon. plus, a false alarm at the

nation's capital. >> yeah. >> the biden administration looks to get the mask mandate for travel reinstated. >> yeah. just in, new reporting on how republican leaders privately blasted donald trump in the wake of the january 6th attack. >> like heaven. >> and even about to drive him from politics. >> mitch! >> only to later hear from their constituents. i don't know. back off. welcome to "morning joe". willie, it appears -- first of all, let's talk about the capitol being evacuated yesterday. it appears that somebody at the washington national's pr department, as jonathan lemire said, forgot to send one extra e-mail. >> oh, boy. >> say, we're going to have this plane flying overhead, over the nats stadium and drop some people out of it in parachutes.

so you had frantic messages going out on twitter yesterday, and the nationals were going, look up in the sky, everybody. >> oh, no. >> i don't know exactly what happened. but, man, you got to kind of notify. it is not like it is in de "the in dubuc. >> people were not laughing on capitol hill when they thought an unannounced plane flying into their airspace. >> no, no. >> given everything the capitol has seen. garrett haake is with us. speaker pelosi none too pleased in a statement last night that somehow the capitol police were not alerted a plane would be entering airspace and a couple of army parachutists would be dropped into the stadium before the nats game. what was it like on capitol hill when the lockdown went out?

>> look at that picture. >> oh, my god. >> willie, i was leaving the capitol, walking to my car and i saw the evacuation notice go out and thought, that's kind of odd. then i looked up and saw the plane circling the capitol and i turned back around and ran back over to try to figure out what was going on. it was a truly bizarre situation. most of the capitol is empty. a lot of staff had left for the evening because it was around 6:30. the folks that were there were evacuated out, were left standing on the lawn wondering what happened. you mentioned that statement from speaker pelosi, none to pleased is putting it mildly. she called it outrageous and she suggested there will be an investigation here, because while we joke about it this doesn't speak very well for the kind of close interagency coordination that everyone was promised we would see more of following january 6th. so an incredible, spectacular

view. a bizarre moment, but something that doesn't exactly speak well for the way the government is supposed to be interacting with itself to keep d.c. safe. >> no. i mean for people that haven't been to d.c., the nats' stadium is just right across the interstate from the capitol. >> that's right. >> it is in very close proximity to each other. garrett, it is not just like the capitol police would have a reason to get upset and worried. but think about the people maneuvering around in the plane, they're lucky they didn't get shot out of the sky. >> it is impossible to figure out at this point who dropped the ball here and who knew that plane was coming and that it wasn't. our pentagon producers reached out to norad and it turns out there were never fighter jets scrambled in the situation so somebody knew about the plane. if you have flown into washington, d.c., you have the weird an it where you come up the potomac and land at dca.

so much of the airspace is restricted so to see anything flying low on the capitol mall is something that gets d.c. residents spooked because it doesn't happen. somebody dropped the ball here. and somebody better have their things in a box close to their desk when congress gets their teeth into this. >> yeah, you look at what happened based on what we know so far, this goes right to the faa because the united states army aircraft was talking to the control tower at reagan national, so reagan national knew what was going on to the plane. somehow the word doesn't get to the capitol police or to the people who really needed to know. there's some failures along the way. thank god it was nothing, but you saw it yourself, the reports of people streaming out of the building, some element of panic as you can imagine. so i understand that things will be different probably as of this morning in a few agencies. >> well, yeah, i think that's probably right, willie.

i think it is worth mentioning it is not just january 6th. we have had multiple bomb threats. we had the guy that parked outside of the supreme court and said he had a bomb in his car. we had the good friday killing of a capitol police officer at a barricade. the capitol is a workplace for tens of thousands of people. it is part of the community, and this stuff just keeps adding up for the people who live and who work there. and for people i was talking to, a staffer friend of mine last night, it is exhausting because you never know which one of these things is something goofy like army parachuters maybe not communicating properly with the capitol and which will be something really serious. >> yeah, it is crazy. nbc's garrett haake. thank you so much. i don't know if you are going to stick around or not, but we have amazing alex burns story about kevin mccarthy saying, i've had it with this guy, i'm driving him out of politics right after january 6th. mitch mcconnell saying, if this

isn't impeachable i don't know what also is. also saying the democrats are going to take care of that son of a -- for us. we are going to talk about that in a little bit. mika, we have a ton with the mariupol news. >> yes. we will go to paris where there was a fiery change between president macron and marine le pen, saying he speaks with putin as a foreign leader whereas she speaks with putin as her banker. >> by the way, that 58 1/2 percent spread looking good we're hearing from french bookies this morning. to the stop story this morning, russian president vladimir putin is ordering his forces not to storm the last stronghold in the besieged city of mariupol, instead continuing to block it so it can't even, quote, fly through. >> so a fly can't even get through. >> oh, got it.

putin's orders come after the russian defense minister told them this morning that the steel factory where thousands of ukrainian troops and civilians were holed up -- >> look at the close quarters here. >> severely blocked. his comments also come just hours after ukrainian officials said moscow's forces have been relentlessly bombing the plant. they also say that russian troops yesterday attacked a makeshift hospital near the factory, trapping hundreds of people under the rubble. >> yeah. you know, willie, first of all -- and i am sure clint is going to underline this in a second. first of all, for putin to say that mariupol has been a success while the ukrainians have been talking about, and people like clint have been talking about mariupol's great success for the ukrainians has been nailing down russian troops so they weren't

able to do what they needed to do in kyiv, they weren't able to do what they were able to do across the rest of the country, they weren't able to get to odesa. now what is putin saying? we're not going -- he is not saying it, but actually the reality of it is that putin and the military said, we're not going underground for those guys because we won't ever come out. instead, we're going to do a siege. well, what does that do? that locks down troops in mariupol for the foreseeable future. so that means they can't help in the donbas. they can't help in other parts of the country. it seems that putin is coming face-to-face with the reality that even surrounded the ukrainians are dangerous. >> and you are right, it is part of the reason why russia didn't take kyiv. they were tied down. by the way, they remained tied down because the holed out troops are still at the steel factory in mariupol, and

president putin says we're not going into it, we're going to keep it surrounded. and the language he uses, mariupol has been liberated. this is the orwellian language he has been using, he started out wanting to library rat in his perms. his terms. let's go to clint watts at the board. clint, what have we seen in the last 24 hours since we spoke last that would lead putin to say the operation has been a success, we have taken mariupol? >> willie, the only thing putin has done in mariupol is deployed a bunch of cameras and journalists basically that will tell his story. nothing has really changed on the ground. i think the key point with mariupol is this area, this steel plant is the worst possible place you could attack. what putin was saying over the last few hours essentially is we know from the russian

perspective they're going to grind up probably thousands of soldiers trying to take every square inch of this place. it is the worst possible place you would ever want to assault -- >> oh, my god. >> -- if you are a dismounted infantry. you are talking about underground passageways, you are talking about civilians in there as well. if you look separately at what they're doing, they're doing siege warfare but it would be smart from the russian perspective to negotiate some sort of settlement with the remaining troops and the civilians that are here, get them out of that location rather than try and fight them. they've already done some prisoner exchanges in other parts between the russian and ukrainian military. i would think, you know, just logistically rather than creating a humanitarian disaster here, continuing to bog down troops, even if, even if when you look at what is going on here in mariupol the russians just do siege warfare they have to leave troops in place. just like joe said, every minute

that the ukrainian military can hold out here in mariupol is another minute the russians can't redeploy and it is another minute the ukrainians can deploy more force here into the donbas. i think today we are seeing a continuation a little bit of what we saw yesterday. some things to think about is really how the defenses are. what you don't see very well here because it is hard to depict is ukrainians have essentially built some defensive lines in several plays i will do light blue. south of izyum is a key marker here. here around donetsk is where the troops from mariupol would be redeployed, essentially pushed north. you see ukrainian defenses here and i will zoom in to show what is going on in this spot. i will try to zoom in here in green. you are seeing them try to push in and around these locations. what they're doing is small

encirclements, essentially probing out on these lines, doing some reconnaissance in these areas. they will try to envelope small pockets of the ukrainian military, essentially surround them, contain them and cut them off. the key one is izyum. kramatorsk is the area where we saw at least a missile strike on a train station killing a lot of civilians. it is down about here. the russians would like to advance here. this is the battle space where everything is concentrated now. >> again, siege warfare, the art of war talks about it being basically the lowest form, it takes up so many troops. clint, if they're laying siege to mariupol and those are, of course, troops that can't be used in the donbas or anywhere else in ukraine, what's the

possibility at some point of some ukrainian forces peeling off and going down and trying to break the siege? it seems the longer they're sitting there the more time they're giving the ukrainians and the ukrainians allies opportunity to figure out how to break the siege. >> yeah. i think what we're more likely to see is down here in the south. when you look at this scene, right here you have ukrainian military essentially coming and doing small counterattacks at time. separately, there are forces to the anterior and to the north around kyiv that will continue to relocate, essentially move towards the east. what i would expect is in this area here you are going to see redeployment of more ukrainian military. every day that this bogs down more of these forces they can't push north, you will see the ukrainian military and if they can get in and dig in they have a good chance of holding off the russian armor convoys. i think the russian armor, while

they're do better in the open spaces, they're going to use massive artillery, missile strikes. while they do better their will to fight is very low. i think in all of the cases the ukrainian military outnumbered but it would take probably five to one in many of these locations for the russian military to advance and try to take these ukrainian military forces that are in the defense. >> well, you know, i will tell you what. i mean it is obvious that -- i think you have just underlined the most important thing about putin's decision, his change of plans. putin does not care how many troops are killed, at julia ioffe says, russian generals refer to their conscripts as cannon meat. in this case i wonder if he didn't get commanders on the ground there, some generals on the ground saying, i can't get my guys to go in there. they're going to get slaughtered. i just -- i can't get those guys, they've seen what happened

outside of kyiv, them marching into the steel plant is suicide. clint, i wonder whether putin didn't get the message back, we can't get them in there. >> it is totally possible, joe, because also remember a few things that are weaknesses of the russian military. one, they don't really fight at night. that's not their thing. the way we conduct operations from the west -- >> god. >> -- they just send troops straight in in daylight. you can go in on social media and watch footage of russian soldiers moving about. second, when doing these assaults they don't have a noncommissioned corps. they don't have sergeants the way we have to lead these fights. they are talking about officers, these are experienced officers that are going to lead forces essentially on the front lines into urban combat against a steel factory that has been fully entrenched and dug in. it is a terrible situation if you are one of the leaders on the ground in mariupol, and some

of the shocks they try to use. they've not done well. you see the videos where the chechnyan forces are just chewed up. the better odds are to trade off time and do the siege warfare. >> client watts, thank you for explaining to us. we greatly appreciate it. it is obvious if they had gone in there the russians would have been ground down. let's bring in u.s. national editor at "the financial times" ed luce, and also bureau chief at polite ko jonathan lemire. ed, he doesn't have to sit now at a table the size of a football pitch. secondly, i think we are hearing

a lot of spin about mariupol. he's saying, you know what? we're just going to do siege warfare. i think his generals went back and said, we don't have the ability to go in because, as clint said, it is the worst of all circumstances for russia. the other thing i think we ought to bring up is putin's missile test, which, of course, people are scrambling around in the west and talking about how dangerous it is. i think it is yet another sign. when he and his -- and lavrov start sabre rattling, as they did in the early phases of this war, about nuclear weapons, it is a sign of weakness. it means they're getting routed on the ground. i'm curious, what is your take about what has happened over the past 12 hours? >> well, your last point i think is a very good one. bill burns, the cia director, who, by the way, we don't often say this as journalists about

public figures, but is doing a really bang up job as in charge of intelligence. what he said last week is the more desperate putin gets, the more likely these kinds of nuclear sabre rattling, escalatory signals are going to be. this so-called -- well, satan as it is dubbed, icbm test, something that putin described as providing food for thought, a really chilling phrase, giving the west food for thought about what russia could do is, i think, you are absolutely right, a sign he is pretty much stuck in terms of the ground war. he might be able to -- he might be able to seal off this labyrinth steal plant in mariupol. he might be able to eke out a couple of very bloody gains in small towns here and there in

the donbas, but the days when russia is going to sweep across ukraine are long gone and, therefore, the temptation for putin to escalate the threats to the west get more acute as time goes on. i can't add to clint's sort of brilliant on-the-ground military summary there, but i can say with some confidence that putin is going to keep doubling his bets as the ground war grinds on and a prospect of any kind of sweeping victory recedes. he is going to keep doubling his bets, so bill burns i think was prophetic in terms of his forecast. >> jonathan lemire, the president is headed out west for a couple of days, portland and seattle, two-day visit. before he leaves this morning, a little later on our watch on

"morning joe" we will hear live from him. he will make remarks from the roosevelt room about ukraine. what do we expect to hear from him? >> those remarks slated for about 9:45. i'm told he will address issues such as the u.s.'s continued help for ukraine. he is going to acknowledge that for people he understands gas prices have escalated because of the incident, the invasion there, although they've ticked down slightly in the last week or two. he will reiterate the american commitment to arming the ukrainians as this war shifts into a new phase. we know that's there's the new aid package headed that way. there's discussion of another one, another $800 million, $900 million in aid that could go towards ukraine in the next week or two. so we will hear from that, the president on that. a few other notes here, the u.s. was heartened, if that's the right word, that russia did notify them they would be

testing that missile. they did sort of adhere to international standards and indicated that would be the case even as the u.s. scuttled their own missile test a few weeks ago because they didn't want russia to think it was a provocative act. officials i have been texting with this morning believe putin, the decision to change tactics there in mariupol in addition to his decision to change tactics with the size of his table, perhaps aware he has become a meme for his long tables, does indeed show a sign of some russian weakness. that they don't want to, at minimum putin doesn't want to have to suffer the extraordinary amount of casualties he would take if they were to lay siege and storm that steel plant. yes, eventually would he get it? most likely, but the casualties along the way would be immense. they don't want to do that even as it risks tying down their forces even further. >> ed luce, we are starting to hear reports out of russia that mothers are starting to light up message boards online about the

government lying about their sons being killed. we, of course, remember when mothers in russia started having their voices heard after a very long fight in afghanistan starting in '79. that's starting to happen now in part because we don't have any good estimates, but many military analysts believe as many russians have been killed already in a month and a half in ukraine as were killed in that long and bloody war in afghanistan. >> yeah, the russian official numbers are 1,350 thereabouts dead. the ukrainian estimate, which our intelligence agency is saying is closer to the dead, 20,000 dead. if it is 20,000 dead, that's

already 5,000 more than in afghanistan. putin's power rests on his propaganda with the russian people. if they believe as he repeatedly keeps saying that ukrainians are nazis and they're the ones being aggressive towards russia and russia is fulfilling its glorious, heroic second world war role of defeating nazis. if the russian people believe that, and we have no way of telling because it is impossible to conduct a free and pharaoh pinion poll where people answering the pollsters feel free of fear, but if putin's propaganda is cracking given the sort of know of corpses back to the motherland, then putin's base, his bed rock of power is

under threat. he's not threatened by people around him in the kremlin. he is not threatened by the kgb or senior soldiers. he has a complete grip on the top of russia. he needs popular opinion behind him, and if that's cracking then he is going to get desperate. all right. still ahead on "morning joe," we have a line-up of leading military voices joining us to weigh in on the situation in ukraine. retired navy master sergeant jason beardsley and retired army lieutenant colonel ben hodges will be our guests. plus, the new reporting that cross it just moments ago on kevin mccarthy's short-lived furry. >> kevin was so mad. >> with donald trump after the january 6th attack to the capitol. >> i've had it with this guy! >> what he was actually saying behind the scenes. you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. these facts require immediate action by president trump, accept his share of responsibility, quell the brewing unrest, and ensure president-elect biden is able to successfully begin his term. >> kevin, we hardly knew you. >> yeah. >> that is, of course, republican leader kevin mccarthy in the days after the insurrection showing courage that lasted a lunchtime. >> yes. >> donald trump for his role in

the attack on the capitol and fresh reporting in how early mccarthy and senator mcconnell were privately tearing trump to shreds and vowing, get this, get this, to drive him from politics. of course, we know how long that principled position lasted with mccarthy all smiles in mar-a-lago just a few weeks ago. of course, those details coming from new reporting from "new york times" reporters alex burns and jonathan martin. it is from their new book on former president trump and the 2020 election, quoting from their reporting. mr. mccarthy went so far to say he would push mr. trump to resign immediately. quote, i've had it with this guy. i can't even say it with a straight face. he told a group of republican leaders. they go on to write, the democrats were driving hard at an impeachment resolution, mr. mccarthy said, and they would have the votes to pass it. now he planned to call mr. trump

and tell him it was time for him to go. what he did was unacceptable. nobody can defend that and nobody should defend. . kevin, kevin, listen to the voices inside your head. you were right the first time. that's what he told the house leadership team. mccarthy also said he would tell mr. trump of the impeachment resolution, i think it will pass, it would be my recommendation you should resign. so anyway, on and on and on. some incredible reporting, willie, coming out in this blockbuster book. of course, we know how the story ends. within weeks they back off, both of them back up. but just get this, willie, so you have -- you have here with this incredible reporting from jonathan martin and alex burns, you have the majority leader of the senate saying "let the democrats take care of this son of a bitch," and saying if this is not impeachable then nothing is. then you have kevin mccarthy,

running republicans in the house, saying it is unforgivable, it is uncalled for, and that donald trump needs to be impeached, he needs to be driven out of politics for good. so you have them. we now see from the january 6th commission, we have seen the texts, we have the fox new journalists, the fox news primetime hosts saying the same thing in texts. you have trump's kids saying the same thing, that what he is doing on january 6th is deplorable, and everybody just backs down. nothing like it in american history. >> it is an amazing piece, but not a surprising one. this is what we've tried to communicate to our viewers based on our conversations privately with people over the last, what, five or six years. republicans do not like donald trump. they like what he brings the party. they like the voters he brings them. they like that they get to hold on to power because of him. privately they do not like him.

it is worth repeating kevin mccarthy, in this story, the book is "this will not pass." quote, i've had it with this guy. asked about exploring the 25th amendment to get him out of office, according to this book, he wants to take away the twitter accounts of some members, republican members because he believes they too had a hand in this. of course, as you you said, he was prepared to tell donald trump he should resign. majority leader mcconnell felt the same way about donald trump and said so privately to everyone who would listen, saying -- i will repeat the quote you just said. if this isn't impeachable, i don't know what is. that's a quote from mitch mcconnell. there you have it. they don't like him, they want him out of office, and now they all say they will vote for him and support him if and when he runs again in 2024. let's talk to george conway. he is a contributing columnist for "the washington post." back with us nbc senior capitol hill correspondent garrett

haake. george, i will begin with you. i'm sure you had a chance to tick through the story again. it is amazing to see it all in black and white, the reporting from "the new york times" reports, of what kevin mccarthy and mitch mcconnell were saying in real-time, but not surprising based on what you know of these people. >> exactly right. that's the way to put it. it is a display of cowardice and corruption that i just couldn't -- was unimaginable a few years ago and i think is unparalleled in american history, and i say corruption because these are men who took oaths of office to defend the constitution of the united states and they knew this man was deranged, they knew this man tried to overthrow the constitution and they knew it was an impeachable offense and all impeachable offenses and yet they did nothing at the end of the day. mitch mcconnell refused to hold a trial before the end of trump's term, and at the end of

the day kevin mccarthy ended up sucking up to trump. we don't ask -- this is a bear constitutional minimum for members of congress who have the privilege of representing us in government. the bare minimum has to be standing up to a man who is trying to end constitutional democracy. we don't ask our elected officials to arm themselves and defend a warren of tunnels in a dystopian steel plant that's surrounded and bombed. we ask for them just to do, you know, impeach a man who tried to overturn the constitution, vote to bar him from ever holding office again and they completely failed to live up to their obligations. >> george conway, i'm just curious. although it is incredible reporting, we're shocked at how

weaselly and weak these men are, and that they can't hold on to a thought for a week for fear of donald trump or constituents that might be blindly following him. this pathetic turn the republican party has taken, and it is lasting now for years, it is exhausting. it is a shock opera. what legal accountability, what legal possibilities are there that these men are quoted saying they want this guy out of office and then they're sucking up to him at mar-a-lago a week later? or is it just more shop opera? >> i think it is -- at least with these men it is just shock opera. you know, i think perhaps with trump there should be, i mean i think there can be a legal recourse. i agreed with senator mcconnell on february 13th, 2021, when he gave his speech after acquitting trump. he said that, you know, the criminal law could apply to trump. but, you know, as for this cowardice in terms of these men

refusing to hold donald trump to account, i don't know in and of itself there's a sanction for that other than at the ballot box. >> yeah. >> garrett, i'm just curious. this seems to be another strike against my kevin, my kevin. of course, let's go to the way back machine to 2016 when kevin mccarthy was caught on tape telling republican leaders there were two people he believed were being paid off by vladimir putin. one, dana rohrabacher, then a republican congressman, and the second, he said, donald trump. and when people like gasped he said, swear to god. then you have kevin on january 6th and after going after him. you now have these reports that kevin mccarthy also wanted to take the twitter accounts away, wanted some twitter accounts to be suspended by some of the even

crazier members of the republican house caucus. that's saying quite a lot. so the question is does all of this add up to donald trump and some of the craziest members of the house gop caucus supporting somebody else after republicans take -- retake control of the house? >> i don't think so yet, joe. part of it is you have to beat somebody with somebody, and if mccarthy is able to lead how republicans to victory, if they pick up, you know, 20 or 30 or some big number of seats, i think he will probably get the credit from his caucus for the win. when i read this story, i see the different ways that these two leaders feel like they still need or don't need donald trump. look, if i see j. mart hanging around mitch mcconnell's office, i know i'm about to be scooped. in this case he goes further than we've been able to go with how frustrated and angry mcconnell was with trump.

mcconnell doesn't need trump anymore. he made his feelings about that very clear. he doesn't talk about him, he doesn't engage him, he never was willing to go the additional step to throw his vote behind impeachment but he has broken hard with him. they sort of align with some of the senate races but other than that he washes his hand. he needs trump to be the speaker to keep the disparate voices behind him to get that far. his handle on this has always been keep everybody on the same page for as long as possible and then deal with the additional problems as they come up. but this article demonstrates the additional problems he's likely to have, if he's even joking about get ingrid of member's twitter accounts. he also said publicly he wants to put marjorie taylor greene back on committees, give her better committees. so the private joking, the public posturing not in line here, but all designed towards keeping everybody, as big an

everybody as he can get until the speaker's vote potentially next year. >> thank you. jonathan lemire, you covered donald trump all four long years. just curious, does it matter if trump is upset about this? will trump forgive him? let's keep in mind one of the reasons why there was such concern about the mistake made with the parachuting around capitol hill yesterday was because of the attack on the capitol on january 6th which put so many lives in danger and led to the end of several lives. >> yeah, and certainly the mistake around capitol hill yesterday also evoked september 11th, that last plane, flight 93 that went down in pennsylvania, believed to be heading to the capitol or the white house. in terms of donald trump's relationship with these two men, mitch mcconnell and he have not spoken since he left office. that relationship is broken.

mcconnell happy not to speak to donald trump. he needs him to go along with some of the picks for the senate, and if trump declares himself a candidate for 2024, that relationship will have to be minded. mccarthy and trump do speak from time to time. trump has not committed to backing mccarthy for speaker. he is still angry about the phone call from january 6th. he is still angry about the words we had replayed from the capitol floor when mccarthy denounced briefly what trump did, even though mccarthy has done everything possible to get back into trump's good graces. that's an example of just how tight trump's grip remains on the republican party. you get a critical voice here or there. this is still his party. my question to you, trump hasn't announced that he is running again. he may not. the expectation is that he will. if he does, do you see any republican mounting a serious

challenge, pick your person, who could dethrone him at the top of the republican party? >> not at this point. you need a certain amount of collective courage among the leadership of the republican party to have any chance at doing this. we just -- stripping trump of his power within the party and we haven't seen that. they simply refuse to do anything other than put their personal prerogatives and personal careers above the country, above the constitution and even above their own party because at the end of the day it is destructive of the republican party. >> and, you know joe, you look at the quotes from mccarthy, i've had it with this guy, and from mitch mcconnell, democrats will take care of him. and it calls to mind lindsey graham saying enough is enough, i'm walking away and they all

flipped. burns and martin says, i didn't know they were going to take a picture of me about going down to mar-a-lago. he didn't want people to know about it, about the picture. my larger point is there's an alternate history to be considered here. what if these men had stood up and said publicly and stood by what they were saying privately. >> yeah. >> what if they stood there and said, this is a bridge too far, everything i'm telling people privately i'm going to say publicly. >> such a great question. >> you wonder what would have happened if people stood up for what they actually believed. they did not, of course, but it would have been a different history for sure. >> i can tell you, i guess historically it is a much smaller thing going after a speaker of the house, the first speaker in 40 years. i can tell you when 11 of us went after newt gingrich because we didn't think he was conservative enough we were hated by our committee chair people, we were hated by everybody in the leadership.

a lot of us caught a tremendous amount of blow back from our home district and we continued doing it for a year. we would go to our town hall meetings and explain why we did it, and a remarkable thing happens when you actually trust your constituents to be able to take fear on board. they take information on board. and when you are not scared, everybody has been running scared of this guy from the very beginning, and, again, let's go back. i want to go back really quickly to 2016 because how instructive is it that kevin mccarthy actually said that he thought seriously, he thought donald trump was paid off by vladimir putin along with dana rohrabacher. a lot of other people, of course, thought that about rohrabacher. he was throwing that in with donald trump. he still endorsed him. he got behind him. this is about the same time that

paul ryan, a long-time good friend of mine who was around when we ran newt gingrich out of town, you had paul ryan calling donald trump a racist, saying what he said in 2016 was about the most racist thing you could say. he endorsed him the next day. i don't understand this. i can't even comprehend it. i have never seen anything like it, and yet this is how republicans on the hill have been acting since 2016. i never acted that way on the hill. all of my friends, we never acted that way on the hill. we just didn't do it. i'm not exactly sure how donald trump changed the equation for these spineless, feckless republicans. i don't know how donald trump hijacked the party and at the same time made these republicans cower the way they're cowering. again, you just compare what

they say behind the scenes. it wasn't just this book. the book, of course, is great reporting, but how many times, willie, did we have people come on the set saying they hated donald trump in 2016 and yet they would speak no ill of him on air, and then they would go out and say the most positive things at press conferences about him. we didn't only hear that in '16, we heard that throughout the presidency. republicans far and wide would talk about how much they lathed donald trump, yet they were afraid to speak truth to this failed tv host. >> and they would muster courage for a moment, wouldn't they, and we would see it again here, and then kevin mccarthy would hear the push back. he would remember he wanted to be the speaker of the house. mitch mcconnell would muster a little bit of courage and would realize it would cost him a bunch of votes if he voted to impeach donald trump, and they stepped back because power was more important than the country. that's what is on display.

his hypocrisy, it is cowardice, it is all of the things that george just laid out. if at the end of the day the leadership came out and said, this is it, it is a bridge too far, how many republicans would have followed them through that door if they made it okay to do so? ultimately they did not. >> nobody had the courage to do it. nobody had the courage to lead. by the way, mika, a very fascinating sub plot going on right now that i think may show us where at least one news company is going in the future? exactly. this is exactly what you are about to see which is fascinating. it is about the back story. pierce morgan is set to return to television next week and his first guest is former president donald trump. morgan teased the interview with a very dramatic promotional video that appears to show donald trump storming off the set after being questioned about losing the 2020 election.

>> okay, piers, i'm ready. >> i'll be completely straight to your face. >> i think i'm a very honest man. much more honest than you. >> really? >> yeah. >> you think i'm a fool? . >> i do now. >> excuse me. >> the most explosive interview of the year. >> i don't think you're real. very disappointed. let's finish up the interview. >> oh, my god. >> i know. this is how alternative his reality has become, he is asked a question about reality and his response is, i don't believe you're real. >> yeah. >> who says that? >> i believe there was an extensive conversation about a hole in one that he made as well. >> i don't believe you're real. >> trump may not have stormed -- >> i mean my god, how do you so -- how does walter mitty so

encase himself in bubble wrap that when somebody presents him with a reality he goes, i don't believe you're real. what does that even mean? >> it is sort of where we are. but trump may not have stormed off. in an audio recording, the two men cordially thanked each other at the end of the interview. >> thank you very much. >> thank you for a great interview. >> thank you very much. >> appreciate it. that was a great interview. thank you very much. >> turn the camera off. >> all right. so, george conway, why did we show you this? let's see the front page of the "new york post." above the fold, trump versus peers. donald storms out of explosive interview over stolen election

claims. >> but does he? >> "the post" is running the headline. i don't know if you know this, but it is the paper of record for "morning joe." so i get all of my alerts and they started streaming. here is what is fascinating about this. george, you will remember hup rupert murdoch, he is not one of those who sticks around after the parade is over. he doesn't stick around with his arm around somebody, hey, we're with you. the murdocks are quietly -- not so quietly moving closer and closer to desantis. people close to them know that they're ready to throw it all behind ron desantis. they're ready to move on to trump. so even if this didn't go down the way the "new york post", the paper of record of "morning joe," even if it didn't go down the way the promo suggested it

did, it reveals a much bigger tell and that is that the murdocks are blind siding donald trump. the parade is moving on. >> yeah. they played a big -- the murdocks played a big role in correcting this monster. we can hope that they'll try to destroy the monster now. it is just hilarious to watch and it is good television, so maybe this is how fox is going to get its ratings up beyond what's -- you know, in response to trump's attacks on them. so i don't know. >> all right. >> george, you have questioned people before in depositions. you have been around the block once or twice. have you had anybody respond to a question by you by saying, i don't think you're real? it shows how bubble wrapped this guy is. >> not just he is bubble wrapped, he is a sociopath.

that's why he doesn't believe what he doesn't want to believe. he declares everything fake and creates his own reality for himself. it is not surprising that he says to piers, i don't think you're real. that's his way of saying, everything i disagree with, everything i don't want to know about, everything that offends me or hurts my ego is fake. that's donald trump. that's trump. >> george conway, thank you so much for being on with us this morning. coming up we are going live to paris for more on the only debate between the french president and his far-right challenger ahead of sunday's election. we will explain how vladimir putin may have played a key role in persuading undecided voters. >> we'll tell you why it is a good night for macron. >> oh, yes, it was. plus, another top-level protest over the war in ukraine as the world's economic leaders

walk out on russia. also ahead, we have live reporting from ukraine on the developing situation in mariupol and a diplomatic solution offered by president zelenskyy. "morning joe" is coming right back. >> the greatest statesman in the history of our country understood that the most dangerous threat to freedom is lawlessness. a young lawyer named abraham lincoln famously said, there is no grievance that is a fit object of redress by mob law. yet for several hours last week mob law tried to interfere with constitutional law. some say the riots were caused by antifa. there is absolutely no evidence of that. conservatives should be the first to say so.

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willie, i have just been handed a sheet by "morning joe" otb. >> uh-oh. >> the line on the french -- presidential french contest unchanged. it was 58.5%. people said it would be close. reports after last night's debate, willie, of course, 59% of the french public thought macron won the debate. i don't know if i take the over or under. i know this, willie, you and me and our little side gear, we're going to bring in a lot of money because i think we put the number just right at 58.5%. >> we should say it is all off

the books, all completely illegal but it is what we do at night. >> exactly. >> it keeps us busy. >> it is what we do. >> we picked a bunch of winners at the harness racing in yonkers last night, too. so we had a big night, we're feeling good about ourselves. remember one thing, too, macron beat le pen five years ago by 32 points. >> right. >> 10 million votes. it is not going to happen this time. it will be closer, but he has a large margin ahead of her. maybe it will be tighter, but it is -- you know, he is still the favorite. >> well, in the back room of bookies that we have, again, as you noted, they did call buster douglass over tyson. they also picked unfortunately sham over secretariat in the belmont, so their record is mixed at best? it is. >> but le pen, for some reason -- in the united states, people lie about supporting donald trump because they're ashamed to say they support donald trump. but it seems to me that le pen

is always paint i had as the boogeyman that's coming to get france and it never materializes. i think that's one of the reasons that bookies in the back of our very illegal otb practice at "morning joe," i think that's one of the reasons the bookies put it at 58.5%. because we are always hearing that le pen is going -- we heard it leading up to the last presidential election and she got absolutely crushed. there is no reason to believe this is going to be a 51% to 49% race as everyone has been predicting, but, again, mika, as i have said before we have bet against secretariat in the '73 belmont so what do we know. >> and if you believe it or not this is tied to russia and the top story. french president emmanuel macron and his far-right challenger marine le pen clashed this their only face-to-face debate ahead of sunday's election.

the centrist incumbent laid out his investment in french industry and commitment to the european union while le pen, the leader of the far right nationalist party, cast herself as the voice of voters struggling with the high cost of living. le pen's ties with russia sparked a fiery exchange during the nearly three-hour debate which macron highlighting a loan from a russian bank that le pen's party is still repaying. at one point macron said to his opponent, quote, when you speak to russia you are not speaking to any foreign leader, you are talking to your banker. >> ouch. >> both politicians expressed support -- who of. >> how do you say ouch in frevg? >> ouch. >> oh, okay. >> le pen said she does not believe europe should stop importing russian oil and gas. that's a big issue. >> let's bring in international correspondent keir simmons live

from paris. also national editor from "the financial times" ed luce is with us. ed reporting from "the financial times" mom and dad cottage somewhere in england, we'll get back to him in a second. keir, i loved what was said last night in the polls. the overwhelming majority said they thought macron was arrogant. the overwhelming majority also said they felt le pen was scary as hell. it looks like all in all macron takes away a victory from last night. what are you hearing? >> reporter: those are the first results from polling, joe, as you rightly mentioned. look, macron needed to see -- macron needed to not seem arrogant. le pen needed to seem competent. on macron's side, well, at one point he used a gesture like this towards le pen, which some

people here will consider insulting, but it was gladitorial, it was bare-knuckle boxing. listen, it is a faux pas on the streets of paris but it is a shame it was not in english. it was entertaining to watch. it is not like a presidential debate there. the two candidates sit close to each other, feet apart, staring each other down. the moderators throw in a question and then just let them go at it and then there are timers beneath them that show how much time each has been speaking for. sometimes the moderators intervene to say, okay, a little bit more time to you, macron, a little bit more time to you, madam le pen. you are right, one of the big issues was, of course, president putin. one commentator here saying a vote for le pen is a vote for putin. that being said, it is on the domestic issues that this election will be decided this

weekend, and it is also going to be a reflection of something you have been seeing there, of course, for many years, and that is a lot of disenfranchisement from the electoral system. we sat down and watched the debate with a group of french student. they would have voted in the first round for someone who was a kind of bernie sanders-type figure. he has 7 million votes that will be distributed between the two. it was interesting to hear during the debate how they were responding to what was being said by the final two candidates. >> do you think people will vote as a result of that debate? >> i don't know. i don't know because for our life to see erased -- >> reporter: erased, not there? >> not there. the ecology, the education, the economy or nothing for -- for us

and for our future. >> reporter: so a fiery debate, but perhaps failing to engage with a large section of the french electorate. you know, guys, commentators here talking with that this is not a hope election, that people are very cynical here at this point because of the war in ukraine, because of the issues of inflation and the pressures on people's pocketbooks. and many people will be voting without much enthusiasm for who they're voting for. >> nbc's keir simmonds. thank you very much for your reporting. ed luce, what are your thoughts on the french election as it stands right now? >> i probably share your 58.5% odds, but the 2016 u.s. election and this election between macron and le pen have a lot of

parallels, because what macron needs to do is to get the voters on the left who voted for jean-luc, the left-wing candidate who came pretty close to third but beneath le pen in first round of voting, he is the bernie sanders of this race. his voters really detest macron. macron used to work for rothschilds. they see him as aloof and the rich. they know le pen is a fascist. she might have normalized, sanitized her image a bit, but her underlying policies are the same. putin isn't just her banker. putin is her hero. she has in the past said putin is the kind of person who i admire, putin and trump, by the way. so the game here is for macron

on sunday to persuade these left wing voters that however much they hate him they should fear her a lot more. it looks like from the numbers he is making that case. but, you know, this is pretty uncomfortable. she is up sort of 45%, 46%. almost half of france is supporting a neo fascist, and turnover is everything. so i agree with willie and joe's odds, but i'm not going to exhale until sunday night. >> all right. ed luce, thank you very much. to the latest in ukraine. russian president vladimir putin is ordering his forces not to storm the last ukrainian stronghold in the besieged city of mariupol and instead to continue blocking it so that, quote, not even a fly can fly

through. putin's orders come after the russian defense minister told him this morning that the steel factory where thousands of ukrainian troops and civilians are holed up were securely blocked by their forces. putin also hailed control of the rest of mariupol as a, quote, success. his comments also come just hours after ukrainian officials said moscow's forces have been relentlessly bombing the plant. they also say russian troops yesterday attacked a makeshift hospital near the factory, trapping hundreds of people under the rubble. and president zelenskyy is warning the situation in mariupol is, quote, extremely severe and said now he is open to a diplomatic solution to resolve the crisis there. speaking at a news conference yesterday, zelenskyy said ukraine is ready to exchange russian prisoners in return for civilians trapped in mariupol. zelenskyy said, quote, we are ready for any format, for exchange. i am ready for the dialogue.

zelenskyy also said ukrainian fighters in mariupol need serious and heavy weapons soon, urging the west not to delay any shipments. he said his forces do not have enough of these weapons and are unable to unblock, as he said, the russian siege of the crucial seaside port without help from western allies. joining us now nbc foreign correspondent raf sanchez, live for us again this morning from lviv, ukraine. raf, good morning. what's the latest. could there be some sort of a diplomatic exchange here between ukraine and russia to easy the situation in mariupol? >> willie, it is not looking likely. vladimir putin appearing with his defense minister this morning says his forces have successfully, quote, liberated mariupol. now, that is one way to describe what they have done in that city. as you said, putin says he no longer sees any need to storm that steel plant where ukrainian forces are holed up.

instead, he is content to maintain the siege as the troops go about maintaining domination over the rest of mariupol. there are two ways to look at it. you could see it as a russian success, that they've surrounded the ukrainian troops and they're no longer a threat to russia's grip on the city. that's one way to look at it. another is that it is an admission by vladimir putin that he is unable to take that factory by force or unable to take that factory by force without losing an enormous number of his troops. so instead he is going to keep his men around the perimeter of that plant for as long as it takes to starve these very determined ukrainian troops out. a reminder, these are troops that he needs elsewhere on that enormous 300-mile front where he is fighting in the east of the country. now, willie, you and i have marvelled day after day at the bravery of the ukrainian fighters who seem prepared to fight to the death rather than

laying down their arms and survive. but when you look at what happened in bucha, when you look at what happened in barredyenka you can see why the troops are worried about what may happen if they surrender, if they go into russian custody. underscoring, this an advisor to mariupol saying they've discovered a mass grave in a village west of the city. nbc news has not independently confirmed that. but if it is a case, it is perhaps a precursor of the horrors we may yet to see after the weeks and weeks of siege in mariupol. the ukrainian government from president zelenskyy on down are saying they're prepared to negotiate about the situation in mariupol. they will send negotiators to the city to meet their russian counterparts and try to kim up with a way to get the fighters and the civilians out of the steel plant.

right now we are seeing no appetite at all from the kremlin for any kind of talks. they seem prepared to accept nothing less than unconditional surrender. willie. >> as you say, how could the ukrainians have any trust in those negotiations or any negotiations with russia given what the russian military has wrought in their country. raf sanchez in ukrainian for us. thanks so much. let's bring in the executive director of the association of the navy, retired navy master sergeant jason beardsley, a decorated combat veteran and intelligence officer. also with us former democratic congresswoman jane harmon of california, a distinguished fellow and president emeritus at the wilson center. and msnbc contributor mike barnicle joins us as well. good to have you all. >> let's begin with you, sarge. we heard what vladimir putin said, the news broke overnight they're not going to form into there which, of course, would be an absolute nightmare.

the russian troops i think would be ground up if they did go in there. i am just wondering, how much of a -- right now it is -- of course, we are looking at mariupol and the suffering there. but you look at this and it is hard not to see it as a setback if one of the great achievements of mariupol for the ukrainian fighters has been holding down russian troops there so they can't help in the donbas, so they couldn't help before in kyiv. it seems like it just locks them down even longer. >> yeah. that's a great point, because what russia hoped to do was siege this city much like they tried in kyiv and to really occupy it and of in quick form. that would have allowed them to flex the russian troops and supplies north, to advance their line. this mariupol is on the port, it is very close to the south, has no deep penetration into the luhansk, donetsk region. it is not a key victory for putin, but more importantly he

has lost troops there, he has lost time, he has lost momentum. for the ukrainians it is about spirit, it is about will, as you mentioned and raf mentioned. watching what happened in bucha, they have no sense of giving up. vladimir putin is going to try to run this out, but what he said was really face-saving theater because this whole campaign has gone south for him. >> jane harmon, based upon your past experience in the congress and your access to intelligence -- i realize you don't have as much of it today as you did then -- would you believe vladimir putin about anything at this stage? >> not a chance, mike. let me make two points. first of all, on the french election i'm still holding my breath with ed luce. there's 72 hours left until voting on sunday. joe knows how long a time that is in politics. we have lived through these campaigns, and actually so have you. russian interference, russian disinformation, russian meddling

with the apparatus of the election should be going on right now. i haven't seen any intelligence, but it has to be going on. the last day before the election is dark in france but there's still 48 hours to go, and macron is not a natural campaigner. i hope the spread is as wide as everyone is saying but i don't know that. if le pen should somehow win, she wants to pull out of the eu. she is vladimir putin's friend. it is a catastrophe. that's one thing i am worried about. the other thing, may 9th is soon. vladimir putin wants a scalp and mariupol is it. it is the land bridge to crimea, so i think the stakes here are huge for him and he is handling it, i have to say, in the most cruel and gruesome way but what he wants i think is all of those civilians pouring out of that building just before something even worse happens to them. i am for zelenskyy. the fighting heart of ukraine is something we haven't seen in

years and years and years, and we have to bet on their success. i don't believe vladimir putin for a second and any deal with him won't be kept, and so the alternative to me is keep on fighting, keep on supplying more weapons. think about more ways to attack the russian depots by the ukrainians and more ways to shoot down those missiles. they have the s-300s. they have tools. i'm not sure how effective they are. i know there's an issue about getting some of the weaponry to the front. hopefully it will be corrected. >> ukraine has at least 23 more fighter jets in the air after receiving shipments that made repairs possible. john kirby said earlier this week ukraine had been sent additional aircraft as well as parts, but clarified that ukraine has not received a whole aircraft. u.s. troops have also begin training ukrainians who how to

use howitzer artillery and rounds which arrived in europe. the training, which is taking place at an undisclosed location outside of ukraine, will last about a week. the howitzer were part of an $800 million military aid package approved by the biden administration last week. master sergeant jason beardsley, how effective will this investment be? i also want to bring you back to the people inside the steel plant in mariupol, confirming there will be no international effort to help them as they are starving? >> well, we'll start with the artillery pieces. that's a great addition from the u.s. it is a second round of triggered sort of military supply, but part of this effectiveness will depend on how quickly the ukrainian forces can integrate the pieces well and the joint forces in the region. it takes extra crews to man.

you need extra vehicles to man. it is basic soldiering like camouflaging it. you have to set up near russian pieces and then be prepared to move it, making sure you can obscure radar. so having the air defense artillery pieces or air defense pieces next to those will be key. all of that requires command, control and coordination, and this early battle has been characterized much more for ukraine as guerilla warfare-style tactics. that's hit-and-run. that's small units. that's moving around with the switchblades, the javelins and the tows. artillery is a new style of warfare. they're equipped for it. they've done this before, but getting those in their hands immediately and to the front to be effective is going to be a challenge and it is going to come down to how much command and control zelenskyy or the military forces have. down to the people in mariupol, the tragic story, as you said, i think the former guest pointed

out what putin is doing there is gruesome. he wants a scalp. he does want the city but it has been a high cost for russia. and for zelenskyy, nipping he can do to either reinforce, and i think, joe, you asked a question earlier about why not flex or flow other forces from the region down there and break that siege, that's a terrific question. some of that may just come down to a gap in communication. >> jane harman, president biden is supposed to speak at 9:45 eastern time during our fourth hour. we'll probably take it live. what are you hoping to hear from him? >> i want him to be the biggest, boldest leader he can be. he has forged an amazing coalition with europe, with nato, with the eu. he has to be crystal clear that if putin -- you know, if there's a wisp of contact with a nato country coming out of this thing, nato will respond, including the u.s. but also i think we are missing a few pieces. what happened to the u.n.? why isn't the u.n. -- it has the

authority to do this under a general assembly resolution. it doesn't need the security council. where are the peacekeepers from the u.n.? we also need from biden a day-after strategy. i am hoping this will come out well in mariupol, and i am hoping that there will be more supplies at the front. the ukrainians are very talented and they're very well trained by u.s. forces, so let's -- fingers crossed on that thing. but what is the day-after strategy and how are we going to rally the world, not just europe, to our side? the middle east, africa, latin america, india, these are all countries holding back, and if we're going to have either the so-called liberal world order survive or a better world order, we better be building it right now. this is a big challenge for joe biden, who needs to be -- american leadership needs to be at the front. >> you've so right, jane. so many countries, major countries have been silent or

worse on the question of ukraine. sergeant beardsley, i'm curious, we were talking to another general about this yesterday. in the last month and a half watching this russian military, learning from it as you would as a military strategist, as a tactician, what have you seen as a military leader if you were leading ukrainian troops or perhaps an american military leader advising ukrainian troops, what would embolden you about what you are seen and what might you have seen that would discourage you. it might be a more difficult fight in the east than it was to repel the russians from kyiv. >> those are two worth while questions. what encourages us is they have very poorly handled the supply of their armor. they've poorly handled the disposition of their troops. they got over their skis, so to speak, in this and they really banked on a fast, again, decapitation of kyiv. what we saw instead was broken

trucks, you know, not well maintained trucks and tanks stuck in the mud, low morale by the russian forces. a very sort of distinctive gap between command and control elements, that's where you are moving different parts of the battlefield. they've not been good at any of this. that's somewhat encouraging. the discouraging part of it, willie, is what it has really meant is that the russian forces without professionalism have relied on desperate, nonprofessional means, atrocious atrociously brutalizing these civilian cities. they have no nco corps that would restrain them from the brutalities. there are no good outcomes. no matter what zelenskyy gets at the end of this they've lost cities and people. the best way, as representative harman said, we have to flow

weapons to them quickly. the military strategists in ukraine have to come up with a strategic vision that allows their creative guerilla warfare tactics to set up underneath that strategy. an example of that is forcing your weapons or flowing them into a certain part of the battlefield to knock out something like the siege in mariupol. knock out those pieces and be prepared to flex them north to defend another city. if they don't get it coordinated it will be randomized attacks and it goes on longer. there are upsides of this. the ukrainians have done a phenomenal job. people will be studying this for years. >> for sure. thank you both for being on this hour. still ahead on "morning joe," the federal government is now appealing the court decision on mask mandates for planes, trains and other mass trans its. nbc's tom costello has been on the story for weeks.

he joins us next with the latest reporting on the confusion it is causing for some travelers. plus, rudy giuliani has had a series of embarrassing moments. >> a few, a few, yeah. >> there was, of course, his press conference outside of a landscaping company, the hair dye dripping down his face. >> it happens to all of us. >> now there's "the masked singer." we're going to show you the moment he was revealed on the show. what is he doing there? what is that show? you are watching "morning joe." >> yes, what is -- >> are those furries? >> no, it is not a furry.

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a beautiful live picture, coming up on 7:30 in the morning in washington, where the justice department now says it is appealing the court ruling by a florida judge that struck down the federal government's order to wear masks while traveling on planes, trains and public transit. for now that judge's decision stands. tom costello joins us from reagan national airport with the very latest. tom, good morning. >> willie, good morning. >> reporter: joe called it yesterday morning in our conversation, right? we were talking about will the justice department appeal. in fact, they've done exactly that but they've not requested a stay. they're going after this lone, federal judge in florida who wiped out the mask mandate for the entire country and justice is doing that to try to preserve the integrity and the authority of the cdc. if you are confused about whether you should or shouldn't wear a mask, you are not alone. even as travelers are starting to lower their masks in some

modes of public transportation. >> i can breathe. >> yes. >> reporter: the justice department is appealing the ruling by a federal judge who found the mandate exceeded the cdc's authority. just hours before doj filed, the white house said any appeal would be about preserving the cdc's ability to respond to health crises. >> we expect there to be ups and downs in the pandemic and we certainly want the cdc to continue to have this authority. >> reporter: public health experts say that authority is critical to keeping the public safe. >> when we under power public health decisionmaking we put ourselves at risk, our families at risk in the long term. >> reporter: but the doj as move follows days of confusion from passenger goes nation wild. as the tsa and most local transit systems made masks optional. >> one minute wear them, one minute don't wear them. hey, i'm keeping mine on. >> reporter: complicating things some jurisdictions have their own rules like philadelphia, san

francisco and new york, where masks are still required in some but not all settings. >> at amtrak you don't have to wear a mask. you have to wear a mask on the bus. mta you have to wear a mask. what is going on? do you wear it or don't wear one? >> reporter: while average covid deaths are trending down we are still losing some 400 a day. that's why some say they've mask up. a mother in north carolina says it is frustrating for parents like her with kids under five who can't get vaccinated. >> it makes us nervous to travel with those had may not be vaccinated and are not required to wear a mask. >> reporter: for now, the decision to mask up is up to each individual passenger. >> it is completely up to you as you want to move forward. >> reporter: yeah. i think the bottom line here, there's a lot of concern being expressed by the airlines and flight attendants. if somebody decides to mask up,

give them a break. let them mask. it is their business. by the way, guys, if you have bought an airline ticket thinking the mask mandate would remain in effect, you cannot get a refund just for that reason unless the airline cancels your flight. don't bet on that. you can get a credit for your flight. willie. >> so the debate continues but for now the judge in florida's ruling stands, that the mandate is going for now. nbc's tom costello in washington. tom, thanks so much. guys. yeah, i know. mika, speaking of masks. >> ew. >> and masking, this thing that -- >> so there's this show called "the masked singer". >> okay. >> very popular. >> trump attorney rudy -- it is? >> big show, kids love this show i understand. >> former trump attorney rudy giuliani was in it and it aired last night with giuliani singing

his rendition of "bad to the bone." >> i really think we are all going through enough following the news as it is. it is really hard to digest. >> according to the judges on the show it was just plain bad, we could have told him that before, forcing him to be voted off the show. ♪♪. >> yeah jaet ♪ on the day i was born ♪ ♪ the nurses all gathered around ♪ ♪ and they gazed in wonder at the joy they had found ♪ ♪ the head nurse spoke up ♪ ♪ said leave this one alone ♪ ♪ she could tell right away that i was bad to the bone ♪ ♪ bad to the bone ♪ ♪ bad to the bone ♪ >> oh, my god ♪ b-b-b-bad ♪ >> yeah. so the episode was, of course, filmed in late january right after rudy was subpoenaed -- in is it a show?

>> yes, it is a show. none of the judges were able to guess who the singer was before the suspenseful reveal where host nick cannon asked giuliani why he decided to do the show despite all of the controversy that was just dripping all around him. take a look. >> general, former mayor of new york city. >> is that robert duvall? >> no, that's not robert duvall. >> rudy giuliani. >> no way! oh, my god. >> the main reason is i just had a granddaughter, grace. >> oh. >> and i want her to know that you should try everything, even things that are completely unlike you and unlikely. i couldn't think of anything more unlike me and unlikely than this. >> no, i think you had actually already done all of that. >> i will say he has tried everything. curious, very curious by the decision to select rudy. but the judges were clearly

unpleased at giuliani's appearance, prompting them to leave the show early during his second performance. >> another one? ♪ hearts before i met you ♪ >> i'm done ♪ 1,000 more babies before i improve ♪ ♪ i want to be yours, pretty baby ♪ >> i'm just -- >> seriously, willie, this is what reality shows are made of. this is a -- what was that mtv thing where the real world, that would be like having steve bannon show be the real world. have people just leave the house, right? >> it is just not cute. >> it is not. >> there are a lot of people you could get who would be surprising and controversial and have them on the show but there's nothing cute or funny about that. it is getting them the attention they wanted. i thought about a few things. george thorogood, important george thorogood having to hear

his song butchered by the former mayor of new york city. and then the great robert duvall, it is hard to know. i guess they got the ratings they want. in the middle of all of this, knowing what we know about him, it is their show. >> it is their show. >> people watch that and they watch people in these things, trying to decipher their voices in the furry outfits? this is what people watch? this is crazy. >> let's focus, let's focus. >> it says a lot actually. >> let's focus. >> it actually explains so much. >> ms. brzezinski, let's focus here. >> got it. >> i think the bigger story here is that you have a guy involved in a plot to overthrow american democracy. >> uh-huh. >> right. >> and he was invited on a reality tv show for ratings, i guess, in the middle of being questioned, subpoenaed about trying to overthrow american

democracy. so i am much more concerned about -- >> was that a rooster outfit? >> my god. >> i'm just curious. >> again, focus on american democracy. >> i'm trying. >> the attempt to overthrow american democracy. we'll worry about the outfits later. >> i'm distracted. >> commanding general of the u.s. army in europe who is not distracted, lieutenant general ben hodges joins us. >> and we will get a perspective on what is happening from douglas brinkley. and the parachuters who put the capitol in a panic. we will tell you about a major miscommunication in d.c.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." you are looking at the white house. 7:42 a.m. in the morning. no parachutes over the white house last night. >> good. >> but there were some over the capitol. my god. people need to talk to each other in washington, especially about that airspace. it is just crazy how tight it is. mike, before we get to -- get to doug brinkley talking about where we are in ukraine, but also incredible connection that dylan has with tulsa, which i know everybody will be fascinated to hear about. let's talk about baseball. we always talk about what is happening in the al east and for good reason, the whole world revolves around the a. all right. east. last night, you have to talk about the guy who made history before he threw his first peach. by the way, there's the american

league east standings. could we put them back up again? i know yesterday i said the boston red sox, it may be the greatest red sox team of all time. now after last night's loss i think we are headed to a repeat of 1965. yeah, we will lose 100 games. we will see what tomorrow brings. let's get our heads out of the american league east and talk about ohtani. just extraordinary. >> are you are looking at rye now, ohtani, a pitcher, an outfielder, a hitter for the california angels, los angeles angels, who last night threw five perfect innings of baseball with 12 strikeouts. that's upside down in order, 5 in a row. he lost his no-hitter in the sixth inning with a bloop single, actually a sharp single to right. i would say this about him, joe, he is certainly one and maybe the only one in major league

baseball where fans would actually line up and pay to see him play. he is incredible. he has a gift. he is magic. he is, i think, the most talented major league player of all of them this year and every year that he plays. he's incredible. i mean he hits, he throws, he fields, he runs the basis. he is not a five to a player, he is a ten to a player. look at that slider. nobody could hit it last night. >> it is just unbelievable. >> just an incredible performance. >> you know, mike, i don't think you could say this about any player, maybe hank aaron one or two years during his career, but we can say one thing about this extraordinary baseball player that you haven't been able to say about anybody else in the 120, 130-year history of this sport. he is ruthian. other than babe ruth, who else could you compare to babe ruth and what ruth did first for the red sox and then for the yankees

but ohtani? nobody else. i have to say younger kids just absolutely mesmerized by him and his story. >> babe ruth literally 100 year ago was pitching and hitting home runs. he stopped pitching as soon as the red sox had the foresight to sell him to the yankees. 100 years later you get ohtani who is the present day babe ruth. you are absolutely right. he is incredible to watch. >> yeah. all right. the president of the european council has become the latest eu leader to travel to ukraine and meet with president zelenskyy. while in kyiv the ukrainian council chief pledged solidarity with ukraine. he tweeted this, history will not forget the war crimes that have been committed here. there can be no peace without justice. lawmakers in finland or debating whether the country should join

nato. during a poll men tarian session yesterday half of the 200 members openly supported the join the alliance. it comes as russia's warning about the buildup should norway and sweden become members. the finnish government said it hopes to build a parliamentarian consensus in coming weeks. this is concerning for vladimir putin, joe, and a lot of experts in the past two decades have been concerned about ukraine's wishes to join nato being a bit of a sort of aggressive move toward ratcheting up the tension between russia and ukraine. >> again, vladimir putin, he is his own worst enemy. >> at this point, yes. >> time and time again, we said it before around we will say it now, that the very things, all of his aims in going into

ukraine have backfired on him, including expansion of nato. i would think before the war if you asked putin, would you hate ukraine becoming a member of nato or finland being a member of nato more? six of one, half dozen of the other. finland has been just a thorn in russia's side for a very long time. they have bent over backwards to try to be as neutral as possible, but the very term, the finlandization of other countries men the neutralization of other countries during the cold war. the "wall street journal" editorial page yesterday, i thought just a great editorial saying finland and sweden's strategic location in the baltic sea could be critical in a wider conflict with russia. finland already punches above its weight militarily. a secure europe better capable of defending itself serves u.s.

interests. my god, what a difference it would make with sweden and finland both in nato, historic. this is like germany deciding to jack up its defense budget as much as it is talking about jacking it up. these are things we would have never seen before this war. >> joining us now professor of history at rice university and "vanity fair" contributor douglas brinkley. what is your take on this moment in history? joe was talking about all of these different shifts towards nato. in some ways it is reflections of the past. >> well, it is a great moment for nato enlargement. you remember when bill clinton was president it was deeply controversial, i mean the clinton administration was saying let's get poland into nato and then czechoslovakia broke up and then we'll get

czech in nato and slovakia and on and on. i think it was clinton's largest foreign policy accomplishment, it was called nato enlargement in the 1990s. sweden and finland wanted to play the more neutral road as joe just said, they couldn't get into nato because it was bordering the former soviet union and, hence, we're at a moment now, i must say finland must join nato and sweden should join no that and the american public should appreciate what it has done under the creation under harry truman and what it continues today. there is no u.s. security without the atlantic alliance holding firm. i think putin's made a mistake here going into ukraine. it's only reinvigorating what he most fears. that's a hypermilitarized and well-funded nato. >> doug. good morning, we talk every

morning about day-to-day, hour-to-hour performance of president biden through the early stages of his presidency. i am curious from your longer view of history, how this president has performed in terms of rallying europe, rallying the west in support of ukraine in terms of organizing the sanctions that have crippled the russian economy, obviously, his poll numbers remain low because of inflation and a lot of other things happening at low. in terms of his hand himming this ukraine war on the international stage, how has he performed so far? >> i think when are you dealing with the ukraine, joe biden has been superb. there is not much more he can do that without getting us trip wiring us into a third world war, we have to be careful. i mean, everybody loves zelenskyy and early on people were saying he's like winston church hymn. well, churchill didn't have to grapple with nuclear weapons during world war ii. we are in a nuclear age, bind at

all costs has to make sure this doesn't escalate in a wrong way. yet, he has been able to unite nato, so statesmanship leadership let's him know he is there as an ad advisor. 800 million going in. another 800 million, billions of dollars of american aid going to ukraine. the american people i think biden might want to make il it a little more clear, even if you crane holds out for a year or two, it enhances the foreign policy by making the european countries get on much greater alert of the per ills of russia and particularly putin's russia in the 21st century. >> so, doug, a year ago, if you would ask people in power, people in politics about nato, what's their impression of nato? it's a mottony collection of people operating independently. there is no cohesion to it. yet president biden in the space of two months has pulled this

group together into a uniquely fighting force diplomatically, which is what it was meant to be when it was first created. why do you think president biden has not received the credit for doing this? >> he does deserve a lot of the credit, but there was a, the problem of the build-back better plan that for one year democrats thought they were going to get this big, it was marketeered as a new deal or great society measure. biden came up short, short of two votes, cinema and manchin. a lot of young people, if you look at the polls for bind aren't there for him. they are saying we waited a year. you talked about climate change. what are we getting? john lewis voting rights. what are we doing? and then, look, he's not an inspiring ora tor. that will inspire like ronald

reagan or kennedy. par of it is his age, who he s. he has never been thought of as a golden tongue speaker. so in a way on tv he comes across a little more like an eisenhower or a gerald ford or you know nixon or lyndon johnson, jimmy carter. he doesn't come off like obama. i'm afraid for any democrat that follows barack obama, they're always going to seem short, because obama was so great on his feet. then the polls are bad, inflation's bad, gasoline lines are bad. it's as are pe for a bad mount term for bind. many are looking for plan b. what about amy klobuchar, corey booker, buttigieg? when are you the sitting president and people in your own party are looking for an alternative. it's not a food place you want to be in. >> we do need to bring this up.

i know you know this better than anybody, ronald reagan. landslide in 1980, happenedslide in 1984. won 49 out of 50 say it's. you talk to old hands in the republican party, they will tell you they have never been more disappointed with any elections than 1982 when reagan got wiped off the map. his first two years in the mid-term, people didn't think he was going to get re-elected. 1984, republicans wieptd him out. two years before he became the first democrat to get re-elected since fdr. i can get going. you look at george bush in 2006 what happened there. barack obama in 2010, you had the tea party come in 2010. and, my god, democrats even lost ted kennedy's seat in the special election.

so this is for some reason, this is just the ebb and flow of american politics. it has been for the past 40, 50 years. so people taking too much of joe biden's problems in the first two years, need to look back in history. they'll see, what is just what happens with american politics. >> you know, joe, you talk about reagan in 1983 free in grenada, lebanon, his foreign policies in 1984 were something like 27%, considerably lower than biden, reagan. in summer of 19 year, he went to europe and gave the famous speech of the boys point to normandy and teddy dolan speech and mike dever timedt with the morning shows like your show right now and all these people watched and reagan started being

seen as a freight foreign policy president because he was honoring the world war ii generation telling any veteran of the second world war or korea, stand up, are you an american hero. he started stealing a lot of what we used to call harry truman social security democrats and bringing them into the republican net. as you said clobbered walter mon dale in 1984. >> my god, you just remy opinioned me of that peggy noonan speech in 1984. let me be the first to say, it's not if speech writer but the president who delivered it. you look at peggy's words in that normandy speech. her words after the challenger disaster. it's what jon meacham would call american scripture. you have a new piece out in vanity fair about the bob dylan museum opening up and the iconic music that visitors that go to the museum are going to see.

♪ how does it feel? ♪ how does it feel ♪ ♪ to be without a home ♪ ♪ like a complete unknown ♪ ♪ like a rolling stone ♪ >> so tell me, doug, i get dylan's obvious connection with with with with greenwich village, his connection with minnesota, tulsa, not so much. so how did tulsa land this remarkable cultural experience? >> well, it's remarkable. it was only on two seconds. but there was footage there of bob dylan with john wayne hanging out together in 1964 for that, that's never been seen before. it's an exclusive for you. it's going to compensate for

having to endure rudy guiliani in a chicken costume. >> thank you. >> it keeps our great nobel laureate, bob dylan. he was deeply involved with the indigenous people. item sa, the museum has more indigenous artifacts than anywhere else in the united states a. billionaire, george kaiser, entrepreneur built a moo up to honor william guthrie from oklahoma. they've redeveloped and arch district and the kicker is, i just saw dylan last week in tulsa, where he performed at keen's ballroom, that's where bob dylan and the texas playboys used to broadcast out of. they saved the church where leon russell and tom petty and j.j. kale used to record. >> wow. >> so there is this tulsa scene going on there, it's becoming a destination.

i call it the am i at peace in the americana capital of american tulsa, which was the beginning, not the beginning, it went from chicago to santa monica, tulsa, the whole route 66 legend endures. it has a lot of that neon signage from that iconic era, the kitschy motels and the like. >> all right. historian doug brinkley. that understand so much. honey, it looks like we're going to tulsa. >> i think that would be fun. you can find the article on the first look of the bob dylan issue vanity fair may issue. a wonderful departure from whatever that was with the matchinged singer. >> that's amazing. breaking news overnight, vladimir putin claims victory in the war-torn city of mariupol, ordering troops -- >> it's not a real victory, it's strategically a setpack.

>> yeah. he is ordering his troops to maintain their siege there, but not storm the steel plant. it raises the question, is putin's strategy to sav out the remaining defenders of mariupol and the civilians there? we will get a live report from ukraine. plus, putin's message to the world after testing a nuclear-capable missile in the middle of the war. willie. >> and by the way, guys, bob dylan's eternal grandparents from ukraine. so we have ukraine to tank bob dylan. they were from odesa. a little connection there for you. let's go to ukraine, outside of kiev, nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin, good morning, what does it look like there and what are you hearing about what's happening in mariupol, where vladimir putin claimed he liberated by some estimates

20,000 civilians have been killed? >> reporter: hey, willie. well, here outside the capital, they're still dealing with the drugs left behind by the russians. ukrainians say that russian forces blew up this bridge as they were retreating after losing the battle for kiev. meanwhile, yet another claim by victory of russia in another key city this morning. take a listen. this morning russian president vladimir putin claiming victory in mariupol saying the whole is i is controlled by the russian army. putin claiming he is cancelling the storming of a steel plant in the city where ukrainian forces and hundreds of civilians remain holed up, surrounded by russian forces. 3500 wounded soldiers and civilians need to be evacuated from the plant. but ukrainian and russian forces are still battling out over

ukraine's industrial heartland, a fight that could determine the outcome of this war. on wednesday, russia test launched an inter-continental ballistic missile. they say it gives food to thought to russia's enemies. ukraine allies scramble to deliver the weapons officials say it into evidence to win. president zelenskyy working 24/7 to speed those shipments. tuesday, expresses cautious optimism, the white house poised to unveil a new package of aid. putin's soldiers are being investigated for alleged atrocity. we follow them into a now abandoned camp where thousands of ukrainians are buried. it's bobby trapped.

>> reporter: they are working to de-mean this area and searching for bodies with 16 people missing in this area. they thought they had found one and duck it up and found out it was an animal. the human remains search begins. three civilians in a nearby veg three civilians have been missing, 23-year-old vlad. his mom says she hasn't given up hope and blames the russian president. these days in ukraine, tears and anger are everywhere. and this morning, ukrainian officials are disputing the russian claim of victory in mar poll. we were messaging or received a video message from a fire inside that steel plant this morning. he says they managed in the early hours of the morning to take out a russian tank and they are fighting on, meanwhile, president zelenskyy tweeting in the overnight hours, expressing concern for the ukrainian forces as well as the hundreds of

civilians that are trapped inside that plant saying that he is concerned they could have only hours left to live. guys. >> and those ukrainian fighters inside the steel factory have made clear, they will not surrender. erin, thanks so much. mika. >> turning now, expert and contradict writer at the tlirks tom nick coles and retired leiutenant general, ben hodges, in europe, now, the pershing chair in strategic studies of the center of europe peep policy and analysis thank you very much. >> general, let's go to you first before this conversation devolves into mikkelson and me and led zeppelin in boston. instead of looking back. let's look forward and talk about what the history of russia looks like after these past sex i would say disastrous weeks for russia on just about every front

militarily, economically, culturally, technolodge chicago what's it look like? >> joe, as i have been looking at this over the last several weeks, two days ago, it really hit me. i looked at the map and saw that red sliver of ukraine the russians have taken after eight weeks of fighting. that all they have been able accomplish. i think we are seeing the beginning the front edge of the collapse of the russian federation as a state within the next four, five years. they've got everything they have involved in this fight. and they cannot defeat ukraine. the corruption inside the ministry inside the fost is becoming more and more evident. i am here in istanbul. yesterday i saw the personal yacht of former president medvedev headed back north to sochi. the american people will not put up with this forever. i do think the sanction will be taking effect over the next few

months. europe is moving away from carbon-based fuel. i don't see a very bright future for a putin-led government. >> tom, you and i grew up, our view of the world was shaped by the cold war and we remember, of course, the '80s, it seemed in the early-to-mid-80s, the cold war seemed to be at its height with ronald reagan. we had no idea. we were blind syed by the events of 1989 and again 1991. but this corruption, this ineptitude, this just rotted-out military and economy, it is laid bear for all the world to see. i'm wondering what your assessment is, if you agree with the general that the next four-to-five years are going to be extraordinarily difficult for russia. >> they're going to be extraordinarily difficult. i don't know about the collapse

and the russian disdain, but it could be the collapse of the putin regime. no russian leader has done this much damage to russia in so short a time. i mean, it's remarkable the amount of damage putin's inflicted on his own country in just five or six weeks. he's set his economy back 20 years, 15/20 years. it will take several years for them to recover from this. which will always be difficult as long as putin is in power. if current trends with nato continue, not only will he pay the price for trying to keep ukraine out of nato, which wasn't going to happen any time soon. but nato could end up having 32 countries, including finland and sweden, which is a russian nightmare scenario. it's a remarkable combination of humorous ineptitude and the

hemmingway character talking about going bankrupt, how do you go bankrupt? suddenly and gradually then suddenly. that's how regimes collapse as well, gradually and then suddenly. i think putin has somewhat more staying power, at least in the short term than we might give him credit for. his grip on powers, very strong, but you know the russian state just as happened in the late soviet period, joe. when you talk about the '80s, i am sure there were people inside moscow saying, we can't go on this way. >> general hodges. i am curious what you make of vladimir putin's focus on mar poll. obviously, it's a strategic coastal city and gets him down into crimea and the things we talked about for several weeks now. but his struggle to take it. he's claimed victory there now. what do you think happens to that holdout regimen and inside the steel factory and what you

learned watching the russian military operate there? >> thanks, willie. you know, the battle of stolen grad in world war ii, it became very personal for hitler and stalin fighting over this city and tens of thousands of soldiers on both sides as well as civilians died fighting in this city that had taken on such a personal meaning for the leaders on both sides. i think mariupol represents that a little bit for president putin. secondly, it is very clear that russia has zero interests in protecting infrastructure inside ukraine. because one of the objectives of this entire war is to eliminate ukraine as a state or the idea of a ukrainian state. so making sure there is no possibility of economic recovery. mariupol very important as one of the ports for exporting grain and so on. so this is all about, which is why they will try to declare vic

victory here on the 9th of may. they wrecked the economy and isolated it. the third thing is i think we're all going to be studying or talking about mo mariupol and the defenders in the same sort of heroic way people talk about the spartans or other famous battles like that. it's not financial to be food if the russians. i am still not convinced they will, if they are ever able to finally cap cure what's left of the garrison, the soldiers there. they're not financial to be treated well. there is no doubt about that. >> so general on that score with reference to the people to the ukrainians, the army holding out in mariupol. it appears to us each day as we look at the maps, we look at the lack of progress that the russians are making, or the slow progress that they sometimes make, that it's basically an army of conscripts, not a lot of

ncos out there in the field with those conscripts. could you please talk abouting that is hard to define for most people. i am sure you can define it, the difference in thing willness to fight on both sides? >> right. thank you. you know there is a famous quotation from napoleon. he says the moral is to the physical as three is to one. in other words you may have the newest equipment, the most stuff. it's the moral component, the humanity mention of warfare that ultimately makes the day. that's why history makes so many examples of people outnumbered overcoming their adversaries. that's what we have seen in plain view with ukraine. very decentralized fight, by the way. it's not one person sitting in a bunker in kiev calling the shots and all these fights around the periphery. it's colonels majors and captains versus multiple

generals. which is opposite of the russian system. this is enabled by a non-core, sergeants, ukraiukrainians have developed with the u.s. marine corps over the past go decades. the sergeants knows someone in their family. when you don't have that in a conscript army, you don't have this powerful connection about what you are fighting for. >> you know, tom, we talked about fine 89, a few minutes ago, and we never saw the sudden collapse of the iron curtain coming. i have yet to talk to a military analyst. i have yet to talk to anybody in government that could have predicted just how bad, just how corrupt, just how rotten to its

core russia's military is and how poorly they've performed over the last six, seven weeks. why didn't we see this coming? and secondly, what is at the core of russia's problem? this is supposed to be putin's grand project over the past 12 years since georgia, 14 years shins georgia, to repulled the military. how could he have failed so completely? ? on the first point, we didn't see it coming because the soviet military was better than this. you know, that's not saying very much. but it was a much better military than the one we are seeing in russia now. but the core problem for russia is the problem that all authoritarian states have. which is that authoritarian militaries, minimumtaries run by dictatorships that dragoon guys

into the military. they are russian citizens, but they have been pulled in from other parts of russia, basically rogue kids from non-russian parts of russia. and thrown into this feet that they don't understand. authoritarian militaries just don't fight very well. they're not good at taking initiatives or trusting their soldiers to make situation. one of the reasons you see so many zwrenls get what kind is because this kinds of military isn't capable of independent thinking, they always have to send a general out front to uncrew problems that seems to hold everybody up. nobody will take initiative the officers hate enlisted men. they hate the officers. tell generals hate everybody. there is no cooperative relationship. you know, i was thinking what general hodges was saying about the ncos, what strikes america's

i taught military officers for 25 years. what strikes me are the really firm ponds from the lower enlisted ranks to the ncas to the junior officers up to the senior command. the russians don't have that the russians are a military that is highly centralize and governed by fear of screwing up. when you are constantly afraid of screwing up, instead of taking initiatives, you end up with two outcomes, one is a bunch of your guys get killed. the other solution is to pound it into the dust. that's the only safe answer. we all expected the russians i this i to not be as great as they build themselves. i and others that study aren't prepared for this level of staggering confidence we are seeing now. >> general hodges, you know, tom brings up such a great point that i'd love for you to underline right here.

of course, again, mike and you and tom and i a little bit older than young willie and young mika, we grew up and our viewpoint was in popular culture shaped by the tragedy of vietnam and whether it was the movies we saw the documentaries we saw, you had these soldiers that were drafted and forced to fight in a war they didn't understand or believe in. well, over the past 20 years in the united states, yet we have not in iraq. we have not in afghanistan. we have not. you look in syria, our troops in syria, but time and again, you look at books written about those wars, sebastien younger's story about afghanistan, war, talking about the hell and when

the soldiers came home, a lot want to the go back. david ignacious, who embedded with the 2500 special ops forces in syria said that they deeply believed in their mention in syria and were bitterly disappointed when they were told to leave syria by donald trump. you can say that about a lot of the troops in afghanistan last year. so there is, i think tom's brought up a great point. we have going for us that russians, yes, some soldiers, some sailors, airmen may not have liked those wars and have been glad to come back. more often than not they believed what they were fighting in post-9/11, a lot of them when they got home wanted to go back. >> so you know the sinking of this russian cruiseer the other

day, about 500 sailors on there, olympic all of them conscripts. in the united states navy the first and last priority is the ship. make sure you do everything to save that ship. these guys got off that that ship as fast as they could. they didn't do damage control type stuff that sailors in the united states navy practice on day after day after day. sol just the whole, that's a maritime example commitment to the mix saved it first. no evidence of that in the russian navy which is exposed poorly prepared like the army. i had an old boss that said what saved the army if vietnam, after a terrible period in the '70s, we had thousands of sergeants killed, officers. he said three things saved the united states army. no one was the commitment to education for a non-commissioned

officers. number two was the creation of a training center where the enemy forced the op 4 to win, you train until the point of failure. then you get better. the third thing was implementation of the aar, the after action review, which is a tough peefrd of self reflection, where in front of everybody else, you say, i was a commander, i didn't clear my orders, i don't want to overstate it. this is a part of the culture tom was talking about that builds trust and encourages growth. >> wow, retired leiutenant general ben hodges and contradict writer at the atlantic tom nichols, thank you both. fascinating conversation. still ahead on "morning joe", vladimir putin's presence loomed large in last night's french presidential debate. we will tell you about president

macron's comments aimed at his first russian leader. and what top republicans were saying behind closed doors in the days after the capitol attacks. >> they didn't like him. >> they wanted him out. one of you guys said, let's who ep the democrats take care of that son of a bitch. >> others said if that's not impeachable. what is? >> maybe the other one said donald trump was a paid agent of vladimir putin and said it's all so confuconfusing. the bottom line, they hate him. we got the receipts. we'll be back on "morning joe." . we'll be back on "morning joe. [sound of helicopter blades] ugh... they found me. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people have their money just sitting around doing nothing... that's bad, they shouldn't do that. they're getting crushed by inflation.

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french president emanuel macron and his far right challenger clashed in the only

face-to-face debate ahead of sunday's election. the centrist incumbent laid out his french industry. the leader of a far right party casts herself as the voice of boaters struggling with the high cost of living. this sparktd a fiery event with macron at a russian bank that le pen's party is still paying. at one point he said to his opponent, when you speak to russia, are you not speaking to any foreign leader. you are talking to your banker. >> ouch. >> both politicians. >> how do you say ouch in french? >> ouch. >> agreed with the sanctions imposed on russia. le pen says she does not believe europe should not importing russian oil and gas. that's a big issue.

>> senior international correspondent keir simmons and u.s. editor of the financial times, ed luce is with us, reporting from the financial times mom and dad bu roar cottage somewhere in england. we will get back to him in one second. keir, i love what the french said about the two candidates last night in the polls. the overwhelming majority said they felt that macron was arrogant. the overwhelming majority said they thought le pen was scary as hell. so, it looks like all in all, macron takes away a victory from last night. what are you hearing? >> reporter: those are the first results from polling, joe, as you rightly mentioned. look, macron needed to seem calmer. macron not to seem arrogant, le pen needed to see competent. on macron side, well, at one

point he used a gesture like this towards le men. which some people here will consider insulting. but, it was glad editorial, bare if you can him boxing. it's a faux pas to say on the streets of paris, it wasn't in english. because it's so entertaining to watch. it's not like a presidential debate. there the two candidates sit close to each other, feet apart, staerk each other down. the moderators throw in a question and just let them go at it and there are timers that bleep them. they show how much time has been speaking for and moderators intervene to say a little more trial to uma chron, a little more time to you madam le pen. you are right. one of the big issues was president putin. one commentator saying a vote for le pen is a vote for putin.

that being said, it is on the domestic issues that this election will be decided this weekend. it's also going to be a reflection of something you have been seeing there, of course, for many years and that is a lot of disenfranchisement of the system. so we sat down and watched the debate with a group of french students. now they would have voted first round many of them for bernie sanders-type figure. he said a million votes will be distributed between the two. it was interesting to hear what they had to say about how they were responding to what was being said by these two final candidates. >> do you think more people will vote as a result of that debate in. >> i just know that because of this for our life, to see erase. >> raised. not there. >> but equal ability for

education, the economy nothing for us around for our future. >> reporter: so a fiery debate, perhaps failing to engage with a large section of the french electorate. i know guys, commentators are talking about this is not a hope election. people are cynical here at this point because of the war in ukraine. because of the issues of inflation and the pressure on people's pocketbooks. and that many people have been voting without much enthusiasm for who they are voting for. >> senior international correspondent keir simmons. thank you very much. coming up in the reported word of mitch mcconnell last years ago if this isn't impeachable. i don't know what is. the "new york times" is out with new details on how republican leaders reacted in the immediate after math of the attack on the

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the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on prock by mob rioters. he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. these facts require immediate action for president trump. to accept his share of responsibility, quell the brewing unrest and ensure president-elect biden is able to successfully begin his term. >> kevin, we hardly knew you. that was, of course, republican leader kevin mccarthy in the days after the insurrection showing courage that lasted a lunchtime. brahaming donald trump and new this morning fresh reporting

mccarthy and senior mitch mcconnell were privately taerg trump to shreds, vowing, get, this, get this, to drive him from politics. of course, we know how long that lasted. all smiles in mar-a-lago weeks ago. opening, those details from new reporting from "new york times" reporters alex burns and jonathan martin. it is from their new book on former president trump and the 2020 election, kwoting from their reporting. mr. mccarthy said he would push mr. trump to resign immediately. quote, i've had it with this guy. he can't even say wit a straight face. he told a group of republican leaders, they go on to write the democrats were driving hard at an impeachment resolution. they would have the votes to pass it. now we planned to call mr. trump

to tell him it's time to go. what he did is indefensible. nobody should, kevin, kevin, listen to the voices inside your head. you were right the first time. that's what he told the house leadership team and said he would tell mr. trump of the imimpeachment resolution, i think it will pass it is my recommendation you should resign. so anyway, on and on and on. so credible reporting, willie, coming out in this block buster book. of course, we know how the story ends, within weeks they back off, both of them back up. get this willie, so you have here with this incredible reporting from jonathan martin and alex burns, have you the majority leader of the senate saying, let the democrats take care of this son of a bitch and said if this is not impeachable, then nothing is. you got kevin mccarthy running

republicans in the house saying it's unforgivable. it's up called for and donald trump needs to be impeached. he needs to be driven out of politics for good. so you have them, we now see from the january 6th commission. you go the fox news journalists, the prime time hosts, saying the same thing in texts. you got trump's kids saying the same thing, what he is doing on the january 6th is deplorable. and everybody just backs down. nothing like it in american history. . >> it's an amazing piece. but not a surprising one. this is what we've tried to communicate to our viewers based open our conversations privately with people over the last five or six years. republicans do not like donald trump they like what he brings the party, the voters he brings them. they leak they get to hold on to power because of him. privately, they do not like him. it's worth repeating, this will

not pass, alex burns and jonathan martin. quote, i've had it he said january 8th of leadership, asked about exploring the 25th amendment to get him out of office according to this book. he wants to take away the twitter accounts of some members, republican members, because he believes they, too, had a hand in this. he was prepared to tell donald trump he should resign, majority leader mcconnell felt the same way about donald trump and said so privately to everyone who would listen saying i'll repeat the quote you just said, if this isn't impeachable, i don't know what is. that's a quote from mitch mcconnell. coming up, a salute to service members, how a planned parachute jump triggered an evacuation on capitol hill. now nancy pelosi is demanding answerss. "morning joe" is back in a

moment. . "morning joe" is back in a moment. . "morning joe" is back in a moment. isn't impeachable, i don't know

moment.

♪♪ . so willie, it appears that, first of all, let's talk about the capitol being evacuated yesterday. it appears that somebody at the washington nationals pr department forgot to send one extra e-mail. >> oh lord. >> saying we will have this plane flying overhead over the nats stadium and drop people out of it open parachutes. so you had frantic messages going out on twitter yesterday and the nationals were going, look up in the sky, everybody. i don't know exactly what happened. but, man, you got to kind of notify, right? it's not like it's in dispute.

you got to notify people when you will be flying planes around the airspace in d.c. >> you know, we're laughing only about the absurdity of the miscommunication. people were not laughing on capitol hill when they thought there was an aannounced plane. garrett haake is here, senior camille correspondent, speaker pelosi none too pleased in a statement last night that somehow the capitol police were not alerted the plane would be entering airspace in a couple army parachutes dropped in the stadium before the nats' game. what was it like on capitol hill with the lockdown? >> this was the weirdest thing, i was leaving my capitol, walking to my car. i seen this evacuation notice. i thought it's odd. i seen the planes circling the capitol i turned right back around and ran back over to try to figure out what was going on.

it was a truly bizarre situation. most of the capitals are out, a lot of staffers have already left for the evening. it was around 6:30 at night. they were left standing on the lawn wondering what had happened. you mentioned that statement by speaker pelosi, none too pleased. i can almost hear the anger in her voice. she called it outrageous and suggested there will be an investigation here. while we joke about it, this doesn't speak very well for the kind of close inter-agency coordination that everyone was promised we would see more of following january 6th. so incredible spectacular view. a bizarre moment. it doesn't speak well for the way the deposit is supposed to be interacting with itself to keep d.c. safe. >> for people that haven't been to d.c., the nats' stadium is

right across the interstate from the capitol. it's not just like the capitol police would have a reason to be upset or worried. think about the people maneuvering around on that plane. they're lucky they didn't get shot out of the sky. >> it's impossible to figure out 2i79 who dropped the paul here and who knew that plane was coming ap it wasn't. our pentagon producers reached out to norad, there were a number of fighter jets scrambled here. so somebody knew about this plane. if you've ever flown into washington, d.c., you have that weird angle and land at dca. so much of the airspace around dc is restricted. so to see anything flying low like that over the xoshlg over nats' park over the mall gets d.c. residents spooked because it just doesn't happen. somebody dropped the ball here.

if that pelosi conversation is any indication, somebody should have their hands close to the box when congress gets close to this. >> garrett haik, thank you very much. coming up, inside the droom for that explosive defamation case involving johnny depp and amber herd h. the allegation and images are shocking and we'll hear more from dep when he is cross-examined today. a preview of that is straight ahead. and another story tied to hollywood, the deadly on-set shooting involving alec baldwin. there is a new report from state officials in new mexico that baldwin's attorney says exonerates the actor. those details are ahead. actor those details are ahead.

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52 past the hour. actor johnny depp is expected to take the stand today for cross-examination in the bitter defamation battle against his ex-wife, amber heard. the $50 million suit comes after heard wrote an op-ed in "the washington post" in 2018 describing herself as a victim of domestic abuse. while the piece didn't mention depp by name, he argues it was clear she was talking about him. depp's lawyers claim it was a major blow to his career. nbc's jay gray has more on what the actor told a virginia courtroom on the stand yesterday. >> so just to remind you that you're still under oath, mr. depp, okay? >> reporter: from the witness stand for a second day, actor johnny depp describes his life with ex-wife amber heard. >> it would be these -- again, these demeaning, berating insults, there would be these

jabs, it would be anything to make me feel small. >> reporter: deliberate, depp outlines alcohol and drug use during their marriage and constant tension between the couple, denying that he was ever physically threatening or abusive, instead claiming -- >> she has a need for conflict, she has a need for violence. >> reporter: that led, he says, to her physically attack him. >> it could begin with a slap. it could begin with a shove, it could begin with, you know, throwing the tv remote at my held. it could be throwing a glass of wine in my face. >> reporter: he tells jurors he would lock himself in a bedroom or bathroom to avoid the fighting. heard, listening to the testimony, stoic, at times taking notes or talking with her legal team as they wait for their turn to cross-examination the hollywood star. >> all right. depp's ex-wife, amber heard, has

filed a $100 million countersuit charging depp with defamation. state attorney for palm beach derrick aronberg has been following the trial and joins us now. these number are incredible. what do you make of this? >> good morning, mika. i think so far it's going well for dem depp because the power of his testimony. you saw the report. but that momentum could change when amber heard's lawyers start their cross-examination of depp in earnest today. they've also promised they're going to show evidence of graphic and horrifying abuse by johnny depp against their client. but for now, depp's slow, halt ing responses come across as authentic and unrehearsed. george burns once said the key to success is sincerity, and if you can fake that, you've got it made. he seems real on the stand. this is not the swashbuckling

jack sparrow on the stand. this is more like the vulnerable john christopher depp from owensboro, kentucky. it seems like this lawsuit is about money for him but a chance to clear his name especially after the london case where he lost, but also a chance to tell his side of the story. it will be an uphill battle to get, number one. two, he could achieve here because for the past two days he's done well on the stand and i think he has been able to tell his story to the world including those in hollywood who shun him. >> now to a new development in the deadly shooting on the "rust" movie set involving actor alec baldwin. nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer has the details. >> reporter: placing the blame directly on "rust" movie productions, this morning new mexico's occupational health and safety bureau says the film's management is responsible for the death of cinematographer

halyna hutchins and wounding the producer after alec baldwin fired the shot. the damning report saying those who ran the film's production knew that firearm safety procedures were not being followed on set and demonstrated plain indifference to employee safety. >> with respect to firearms safety, it was almost nonexistent. >> reporter: the lengthy report, which includes an interview with a camera assistant lain looper -- >> it was an unsafe place to be. >> reporter: cites multimillion misfires on set that were never addressed by the film's management team. the finding also shows the armorer's multimillion jobs left her with less time to focus on handling weapons. investigators concluding the incident never would have happened if the production team followed industry standards. >> i did not observe any safety

or security issues at all. >> reporter: for his part, baldwin's attorney the says the report exonerates mr. baldwin by making clear that he believed the gun held only dummy rounds when he fired it at hutch chins during he rer sal. he's at the center of a lawsuit filed by her husband who spoke to hoda. >> there were a number of ways that safety was an issue, and that safety standards were not followed, including basic firearm safety. >> reporter: but after the new report, a spokesman for "rust" says, we disagree with the findings and plan to appeal. this morning, a troubling investigation revealing safety never came first. >> dave aronberg, first of all, does the report exonerate alec baldwin? and what is what does this mean for other lawsuits, civil lawsuits? >> his lawyer said that it

exonerated alec baldwin. >> i never thought he would be hit with criminal charges so in that sense it doesn't move that ball down the road. i don't know how you can get hit with a maximum fine like they did here and claim victory. for a guy who played trump on "snl," it sounds trumpy to claim exoneration in a situation like this. civil lawsuits are always certain in this matter, and i think this report makings it even more likely that not only will you get more civil lawsuits but that they're going to lose the civil lawsuits. the key for baldwin is that he's trying to separate himself from the production as an actor, that he didn't know the gun was loaded. well, no, i don't think he'll get charged criminally. but he was also a producer on the production, and that's where he's brought in civilly and he'll get sued every which way. i think this report makes it a lot more likely that others on the set could be charged criminally, namely with the fourth degree felony in new

mexico of involuntary manslaughter. >> the attorney for palm beach county, dave aronberg, thank you. it is just about the top of the hour as we roll into the fourth hour of "morning joe." we are following several new developments unfolding with war in ukraine. in just about 40 minutes, president biden is expected to give an update from the white house. we'll go to that live when it happens. biden's remarks will come as russian president vladimir putin is declaring success in ukraine's strategic southern port city of mariupol after weeks of brutal and relentless attacks. at the same time, putin has ordered his forces not to storm the site where the last pocket of resistance is holding out inside that sprawling steel plant, which houses thousands of ukrainian troops and civilians. putin says rather than risk russian soldiers' lives by la